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I've started a subpage ( Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view/Killing_NPOV) for discussion of an RfC regarding the proper unbiased terms to use for killings. I've seen this problem in very many articles where a pejorative or biased label for a killing (murder, atrocity, massacre, brutal murder, etc.) is used as objective fact (rather than offered as someone's opinion). Please direct any comments you may have there. Fourdee 01:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Pursuant to issues raised in the above discussion it seems to me that some clarification of NPOV is needed due to probably unintentional ambiguity in how it is phrased. I have started another subpage (hope that is the right way to handle this) at Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view/Fact_disputedfact_value which outlines the proposed addition of the following table:
Proposition | Description | Examples | Voice |
---|---|---|---|
Fact | A factual statement which is not disputed. | Mars is a planet. Tennis is played with rackets. Water is a liquid. |
Voice of editor. |
Disputed fact | A statement of fact for which there are differing published opinions or which has been questioned by another editor. | John F. Kennedy was shot only by Lee Harvey Oswald. All events are pre-determined. Humans evolved from other mammals. |
Attributed to published source. |
Value (opinion) | A statement of value, worth or morality. | The holocaust was barbaric. Rembrandt is one of the most important painters. Powered flight was a significant accomplishment. |
Attributed to published source. |
Again please direct comments to Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view/Fact_disputedfact_value as apparently there is some considerable dispute about the place of value judgments on wikipedia and this may take some time. Fourdee 10:04, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Ive seen NPOV used as an excuse to delete sourced material that is claimed to be POV, even tho editor has has simply listed facts from a source that is considered reliable at least by him. In this case the opposing editors declare that their POV is not represented by enough sources and thus the sourced material should be removed as it is in their mind in violation of NPOV, while refusing to find sources because then their lock on content would no longer hold. Is this use of NPOV as a tool for censoring other editors work supported by the policy? -- Alexia Death 20:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous user left a message on a talk page which got me thinking: would a neutral point of view really be a point of view at all?-- h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 17:46, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Look, why not simply admit, in this article, that the production of any Wikipedia article is going to ultimately, at some level of writing judgement, going to require either some kind of uncited synthesis of facts or POVs, or else uncited judgement about balance of synthesis of POVs in your writing? Which itself is of course a POV, and one which you are (in all likelihood) never going to be able to provide a WP:ATT CITE for. Since THAT would involve outside-wikipedia publication of some judgement on the style and POV balance of the particular Wikipedia piece which you're working on. Thus, you are bound to transgress NPOV badly at some level, or metalevel, for any Wikipedia work. In the name of honesty, why not just admit the inevitability of this? And then be done with it? I'm tired of all this pretention of objectivity in the face of an enterprise which is ultimately driven by polling and voting on ArbCom, and similar fora. S B H arris 22:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
There has been some recent discussion about the neutrality of relative terms such as "tall" and "short" and other things. It has been said that it is never NPOV to call someone tall because that is a relative term. I'm almost certain that is not what is intended by NPOV, but I admit that a relative statement that doesn't specify what it is relative to is a potential source for dispute. It can be asked, "Tall compared to what?" The discussion that originated this question is rather silly, so I won't bring it up, but suppose I were to say, " Shaquille O'Neal is tall." Would that be a violation of NPOV? We've got reliable sources to say that he is over 7 feet. I am thinking that "Shaq is tall" is beyond serous dispute. -- Lilwik 21:45, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
For something that obvious I would be surprised anyone who would argue that on their own would be smart enough to live that long without falling into a well. Relative statements are NPOV as long as they are used in relation to some average or standard. A Bently or Maserati is expensive because probably 90% of production cars aren't comparable to them in price. Shaq is tall because most people are significantly shorter than him, and even among people of similar race/regional heritage/genetic descendancy or whatever you want to call it, he's notably taller than average. The best way to avoid this in cases where there could be a dispute would probably be to be as specific as possible without getting rediculous. If you can, use a relative term with what it is relative to. In some cases citation will be needed to establish the standard and/or the trait of the object in question. To use the car example again, it would be easy to establish that a maserati is expensive, no sources probably needed, but if you were to state that it is faster than most cars, you'd probably want to source some top speed figures for both it and the industry at large. If you were to say that a certain building were tall, source its height, and you probably want to mention how that height stacked up relative to other buildings. -- Oni Ookami Alfador Talk| @ 22:19, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I've made a couple of edits to this section to fix a slightly misleading impression that may be given:
Significance: It ensures the discussion of "conflicting views" is in relation to conflicting views within the topic, not conflicting views between editors.
I've also tried to remove the impression that all views are discussed without heed as to weight, by a few minor wording changes elsewhere.
DIFF. FT2 ( Talk | email) 09:41, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Old version
Proposed new verion
Does this convey the meaning that is intended more clearly? Tim Vickers 02:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Original version
Draft 2
Is this clearer? Tim Vickers 15:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is devoted to stating facts in the sense as described above. (emphasis not in original)
Assert facts, including facts about opinions — but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can.
By value or opinion, on the other hand, we mean "a matter which is subject to dispute." There are bound to be borderline cases where it is not clear if a particular dispute should be taken seriously and included. [1] However, there are many propositions that very clearly express values or opinions. That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion. That the Beatles were the greatest band in history is a value or opinion. That the United States was right or wrong to drop the atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a value or opinion.
Wikipedia is devoted to stating facts in the sense as described above. Therefore, where we want to discuss an opinion, we attribute the opinion to someone and discuss the fact that they have this opinion. For example, rather than asserting, "The Beatles were the greatest band," we can say: "Most people from Liverpool believe that the Beatles were the greatest band," which can be supported by references to a particular survey; or "The Beatles had many songs that made the Billboard Hot 100," which is also verifiable as fact. In the first instance we assert a personal opinion; in the second and third instances we assert the fact that an opinion exists, by attributing it to reliable sources.
It is not sufficient to discuss an opinion as fact merely by stating "some people believe..." as is common in political debates. [2] A reliable source supporting that a group holds an opinion must accurately describe how large this group is. In addition, this source should be written by named authors who are considered reliable.
Moreover, there are usually disagreements about how opinions should be properly stated. Sometimes it is necessary to qualify the description of an opinion, or to present several attributed formulations, simply to arrive at a solution that fairly represents all the leading views in those matters subject to dispute. As an example, there is a dispute over using the name "Sea of Japan" to refer to the sea bordered by Russia, Japan, North Korea, and South Korea. The Sea of Japan, or equivalent translations, are currently most common in international productions, but North and South Korea insist on different names. North Korea proposes the "East Sea of Korea" and South Korea proposes the "East Sea", or the "Sea of Korea/Korean Sea". To fairly reflect these views in articles discussing this sea, the most common name of "Sea of Japan" should be used, with the alternative terms noted and attributed to the respective countries.
A balanced selection of sources is also critical for producing articles with a neutral point of view. For example, when discussing the facts on which a point of view is based, it is important to also include the facts on which competing opinions are based since this helps a reader evaluate the credibility of the competing viewpoints. This should be done without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also important to make it clear who holds these opinions. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view.
I don't like the change to credible dispute. This really opens up a can of worms as people fight to dismiss what they deem as not "credible". The dispute should follow Undue Weight and Verifiability. Morphh (talk) 15:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Re-worded and referred to undue weight. Tim Vickers 16:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Update: Re-added formatting, footnotes, additional changes. I changed the "undue weight" mention to a "see also" footnote, because "undue weight" describes proportionality between the varying "sides" in a dispute, whereas in "simple formulation", one question is whether the entire dispute itself is legitimate. In other words, if no one seriously disputes "water is wet" ... then no "opinions" (pro or con) should go in the article at all, and thus "undue weight" is (in that instance) moot. dr.ef.tymac 17:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Looks good to me. Morphh (talk) 19:47, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Me also, this definitely clarifies the matters initially mentioned by Tim Vickers. dr.ef.tymac 21:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I think we should add this, it has the same meaning - so is not a change in policy, and it seems much clearer to me. Tim Vickers 19:51, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Update: Still waiting for other contributors with alternate viewpoints to join in on the discussion. In the meantime, I've added minor adjustments that correct minor (yet blatantly obvious) flaws. This is just a band-aid for the policy page; the entire section still merits updating as proposed here in talk. dr.ef.tymac 15:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Follow-up: Additional note for the sake of principle. Edits to WP policy pages by contributors who are parties to an ongoing content dispute are rightly subject to a very high degree of scrutiny. If anyone has forwarded proposals here specifically to advance a position in a pending dispute, they will do well to demonstrate good faith by disclosing that fact openly.
Modifications to policy should be strictly for the purpose of clarification and consistency. Attempts to change the substance and meaning of policy (without prior discussion and consensus) are entirely inappropriate. dr.ef.tymac 19:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Tim asked me to comment. I think the new draft is an improvement. Particularly, the 3rd paragraph is great, and it's much improved. It does an excellent job of explicitly showing how to state facts about opinions instead of stating the opinions themselves. I like that it's so concrete. Unfortunately, after the 3rd paragraph, I think the discussion kind of gets lost. Here are a couple suggestions:
Good work so far. I'd support inserting it as is, but it'd be great if there were a few improvements first. Good luck, and let me know if I can do anything to help. Gnixon 16:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
As an example, saying "intelligent design is described as a scientific theory by some people but as a religious idea by others" is not acceptable, but the opinions should be attributed in accordance with NPOV: Undue weight, for example – "intelligent design is described as a scientific theory by its proponents but the overwhelming majority of the scientific community reject this assertion, and a U.S. Federal court has found it to be 'religion, not science'."
Intelligent design is described as a scientific theory by its proponents, but the U.S. National Academy of Science has said that it is not science (cite), and a U.S. federal court has found it to be 'religion, not science' (cite).
Urgent Recommendation: IMHO the latest revision of the proposal is in all respects quite well-constructed, all respects except for one. I'd like to (vehemently) suggest the example citing "Intelligent Design" be entirely removed, and replaced with an example citing "Flat Earth" ... there is simply too much "baggage" associated with the former example. It is almost certain to engender quibbles, tangential discussions, and distraction from the principle purpose of this policy.
Moreover, the "Flat earth" example is already included elsewhere in this policy; even in sections of the policy that are adequately-written and coherent. If it is concluded that "Flat earth" is not sufficiently contentious to illustrate the core principles at issue here, then I propose changing it to an example that does *not* center on religion, such as a disputed naming convention. (See e.g., Geographical_renaming#Naming_disputes, Sea of Japan naming dispute).
I beseech you, please avoid examples involving "religion vs. science". dr.ef.tymac 16:35, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi everybody. Is there anybody who has any objection to the current draft of the summary being added to the article? I'll put the two next to each other to allow simple comparison. Tim Vickers 16:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Old version
Assert facts, including facts about opinions — but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can.
By value or opinion, on the other hand, we mean "a piece of information about which there is some dispute." There are bound to be borderline cases where we are not sure if we should take a particular dispute seriously; but there are many propositions that very clearly express values or opinions. That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion. That the Beatles were the greatest band in history is a value or opinion. That the United States was right or wrong to drop the atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a value or opinion.
Wikipedia is devoted to stating facts in the sense as described above. Where we might want to state an opinion, we convert that opinion into a fact by attributing the opinion to someone. So, rather than asserting, "The Beatles were the greatest band," we can say, "Most Americans believe that the Beatles were the greatest band," which is a fact verifiable by survey results, or "The Beatles had many songs that made the Billboard Hot 100," which is also fact. In the first instance we assert an opinion; in the second and third instances we "convert" that opinion into fact by attributing it to someone. This is not the same as the "some people believe..." formulation popular in political debates. The reference requires an identifiable and objectively quantifiable population, and should be attributed to named individuals who are regarded as reliable.
Moreover, there are usually disagreements about how opinions should be properly stated. Sometimes, it will be necessary to qualify the description of an opinion or to present several formulations, simply to arrive at a solution that fairly represents all the leading views of the situation.
But it is not enough, to express the Wikipedia non-bias policy, just to say that we should state facts and not opinions. When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view.
New proposal
Assert facts, including facts about opinions — but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can.
By value or opinion, on the other hand, we mean "a matter which is subject to dispute." There are bound to be borderline cases where it is not clear if a particular dispute should be taken seriously and included. [3] However, there are many propositions that very clearly express values or opinions. That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion. That the Beatles were the greatest band in history is a value or opinion. That the United States was right or wrong to drop the atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a value or opinion.
Wikipedia is devoted to stating facts in the sense described above. Therefore, where we want to discuss an opinion, we attribute the opinion to someone and discuss the fact that they have this opinion. For example, rather than asserting, "The Beatles were the greatest band," we can say: "Most people from Liverpool believe that the Beatles were the greatest band," which can be supported by references to a particular survey; or "The Beatles had many songs that made the Billboard Hot 100," which is also verifiable as fact. In the first instance we assert a personal opinion; in the second and third instances we assert the fact that an opinion exists, by attributing it to reliable sources.
It is not sufficient to discuss an opinion as fact merely by stating "some people believe..." as is common in political debates. [4] A reliable source supporting that a group holds an opinion must accurately describe how large this group is. In addition, this source should be written by named authors who are considered reliable.
Moreover, there are usually disagreements about how opinions should be properly stated. To fairly represent all the leading views in a dispute it is sometimes necessary to qualify the description of an opinion, or to present several formulations of this opinion and attribute them to specific groups.
A balanced selection of sources is also critical for producing articles with a neutral point of view. For example, when discussing the facts on which a point of view is based, it is important to also include the facts on which competing opinions are based since this helps a reader evaluate the credibility of the competing viewpoints. This should be done without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also important to make it clear who holds these opinions. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view.
Support. This is an improvement. However, it's troubling that "A simple formulation" has almost doubled in length. Can we trim it down either before or after it is inserted? I feel like a lot is repeated within the last three paragraphs. Gnixon 17:35, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Support Morphh (talk) 18:12, 03 July 2007 (UTC)
Looks good to me, just two points:
Text size: regarding the size, some of the text was subsumed into footnotes. The footnotes contribute to the bytecount, but obviously not the body text itself. If "Sea of Japan" (or any alternative example) becomes necessary, it can also be re-added as a footnote.
Reminder: Also, there may be some issues for contributors who have commented in edit summaries, but have not contributed to this ongoing discussion in any detail. Since this is not a substantive modification to pre-existing policy, there may be a need to remind people that this is not a "change" but rather a "clarification" ... in case this latter point becomes an issue. This proposal (IMHO) survives good-faith scrutiny from someone familiar with established WP policy, but everyone has his or her own way of seeing things.
Really though, it'd be a waste not to implement this (or a substantially similar) improvement. dr.ef.tymac 19:11, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I think this page needs a rewrite, and that the policy tag should come off it in the meantime. It's hard to see how an FAQ can be policy in the first place. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin (talk) (contribs) 07:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
<unindent> Help!!! If the FAQ is no longer policy, then we have a policy of Common objections or concerns, but no policy clarifying the answers to these concerns. As it is, guidance on several sensitive talk pages now points to sections that have disappeared from the FAQ: for example, Giving "equal validity" is a common concern with no evident answer in the FAQ. Could you please consider the proposed improvements in a sandbox, meanwhile leaving the headings for us folks working on articles who need to refer to them. It does seem daft having a FAQ as policy: the answer to that is to make Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Common objections and clarifications into a set of brief statements in a section that could be headed Common clarifications – if we don't, we end up with no policy on Pseudoscience. The FAQ could remain as detailed background and clarification, but would no longer be policy. In the short term, a return to the previous status quo would greatly help at a time when arguments about what is or isn't science from theology students and sockpuppets seem to be increasingly frequent. .. dave souza, talk 17:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I strongly feel this page should retain the format and rewording it had when it was spun off the main policy page, for what it's worth. And clearly it must remain policy since it was policy before. FeloniousMonk 02:36, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm seeing a contradiction in this article:
As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. It is a point of view that is neutral, that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject.
We should present all significant, competing views sympathetically.
Are we presenting them sympathetically or not? Richard001 05:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
It is ok to use names of religion, races, communities, individuals as examples for dictionary terms those are traditionally used as a prejudice? BalanceRestored 13:33, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Context: Please see this ANI discussion for background information. Abecedare 23:51, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Just as I and others indicated in the ANB report linked above
WP:IDONTLIKEIT isn't a reason for removal of any article. BalanceRestored was rebuffed at the ANB thread, and has come here to shop for a new venue.
To put the issue into proper perspective, he is claiming that the word Nastika is an abusive term. However, Dictionary definition from established sources show that the word means:
Unless Wikipedia starts censoring words, such venue shopping is just wastage of everyone's time. For details, please refer to the ANI thread linked above, and Talk:Nastika. Thanks. -- Ragib 08:56, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Quoted thesis from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view
Thesis: That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion.
It is, in fact, neither. I offer this for clarification ( I owe this to the distinguished American philosopher, John Kekes, whom I over-heard in conversation)
Revised thesis: That the arbitrary torture, rape and murder of young children in front of their parents and siblings is wrong is a value or opinion.
Such a point of view is often associated with early Wittgenstein and "the Vienna Circle". It is not a tenable moral standpoint. There are numerous articles on wikipedia that establish this uncomfortable fact beyond a doubt. To blindly hold to this comfortable fact-value distinction is not rational. We look for the better theory, not just the facts. And not just any facts. The facts that we need given our objectives. And that is not just a matter of opinion.
Just an observation on the little highlight here [1]. Not sure why it was a comment, but it is a valid point. Long term Wikipedians need to remember that the audience ought to be the general public, not died in the wool Wikipedians. Using phrases like POV fork do tend to make people who are less into it glaze over and turn off. Spenny 09:26, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
It's been a while since I checked but the references I added to the notability pages have been removed. The idea that "tiny minority" views "do not belong in Wikipedia" does touch on issues of notability, not just neutrality, sicne what's so unneutral about including them in separate articles if verifiable information exists? Not every verifiable, unoriginal research viewpoint can be included in separate articles. Does this suggest then a new "notability" criterion for viewpoints, namely the number of adherents as opposed to verifiable coverage? Furthermore the statement "If you are able to prove something that no one or few currently believe, Wikipedia is not the place to premiere such a proof. " The number of believers has absolutely nothing to do with it. A whole bunch of people could believe it but the first publication still cannot be in Wikipedia! (Of course if enough do believe it it could get published easily by someone else somewhere else but that's not what I'm talking about -- I'm talking about the bar for inclusion itself, not circumstances arising from some situation). Similarly you can publish a proof and if absolutely nobody at all believes it yet it stirred up a lot of attention and third-party reporting (see WP:V, WP:N, WP:RS) it may still be able to be mentioned in Wikipedia (although the article should of course be written the right way obviously) and this must be reflected. mike4ty4 07:00, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
I've slightly edited the scientific bias to add:
Scientific bias has always been a problem since on the one hand, SPOV is not NPOV, but on the other hand it often should have great weight, and reducing that weight is often seen as creating a licence for minority theories, pseudoscience and WP:WEIGHT problems in general.
The above addition, I think, addresses that issue, by making clear that a bias for or against scientific orthodoxy becomes problematic when other notable viewpoints cease to be neutrally represented as a result.
Example - explaining that science doesn't support homeopathy is fine. But when that view extends to a failure to treat homeopathists views neutrally, that is, with due weight and fair tone, it's a problem. In the same way, to report phrenology with a strong bias towards that subject, without reporting the scientific viewpoint neutrally, is also an NPOV problem, this time an anti-scientific bias. FT2 ( Talk | email) 10:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I think this is a good addition (especially without "orthodoxy"). However, I suspect some people will be strongly against it because of the pseudoscience issue. Gnixon 15:49, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
There is a big problem growing in the area of "logic" and "mathematical logic." The problem extends to perhaps many dozens of articles, and more every day. There is a group of people in the very organized WikiProject Mathematics who are of the strong opinion that "mathematical logic" is not "logic." This has lead to numerous territory issues in the creation of WikiProject Logic, which is intended as an interdisciplinary subject connected to philosophy, and perhaps linguistics, computer science, etc.
Well these guys don't have to share anything if they don't want to, and they don't want to. They have as many people babysitting the wikipedia as they need to A) keep anti-logicist propaganda in the articles, B) have split project areas for logic stubs/math-logic stubs C) remove all the mathematical logicians from the logicians category D) remove several categories out from under the logic category (including mathematical logic) E) disintegrate numerous articles into conceptx (logic), and conceptx (mathematics) which are the same concept. The issues go on and on. It is a serious issue to the intellectual integrity of the wikipedia. I am not sure that this discussion page is where to go, but perhaps someone can suggest a way to address this. I have started an account for myself on meta wikipedia, but it is not clear when to go in there either. Please advise. Gregbard 21:59, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
The following was recently added:
Whilst true, this feels rather like a sore thumb sticking out; the addition of a point to be used in debate.
Can other eyeballs help decide if this statement, added this way, is the most appropriate way to cover something like this? FT2 ( Talk | email) 13:09, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
This is just a note to register support for the clarification just done by User:IanMSpencer. I recently flagged a subsection for copy editing but I never got around to it. Ian's edit provided precisely the modification that seemed necessary there. I add this just in case there was any misunderstanding about what I was referring to with the comment, which I've now removed. Thanks. dr.ef.tymac 00:42, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Hello, all. I am a relative newbie on Wikipedia, and I have spotted a few articles which I believe should be tagged as not expressing a NPOV. Maybe only an administrator can do this, but otherwise, could someone please reveal to me the code that is used to insert those "notice" boxes? Thanks.-- Surfaced 18:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Please help decide a NPOV issue at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Challenges and issues of industrial agriculture. Thank you. WAS 4.250 17:55, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
It would be easier for new people to find the Neutral point of view article if there were a disambiguation page, where, if someone types the commonly seen "NPOV" into a search engine, he can more easily find the link to this site. Brian Pearson 14:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Am I alone in finding it distasteful when wikipedia policy pages quote the words of Jimbo Wales as gospel? Either our policies are justified on their own merits or they are not. I find it rather gauche. john k 15:19, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Would it be a violation of NPOV principles for an article to be written in such a way that it provokes an emotional response in the reader? In other words, should emotive terms be avoided in the interests of neutrality? I have read through the article, the tutorial and the examples and I can't find any explicit statement on this... yet it seems self-evident that, just as wikipedia should not tell the reader what to think, nor should it tell them how to feel about a subject.
What do other editors think about this? Is there a place in this article (or tutorial/examples) for such an issue to be raised - or clarified? Sheffield Steel talkers stalkers 19:40, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Do you mean something like this?:
compared to:
Anynobody 04:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Tough issue, I think you are most likely correct about the motivation of the person wanting to add said photos. On the other hand it seems like a justifiable encyclopedic desire to want some kind of illustration.
What's the source? If it's a pro-life group's photos they use in protests I'd say skip it because those pictures have been picked because they look the "saddest". A scientific, academic or governmental picture is less likely to be chosen for such reasons.
I also suspect that guidance on this issue can be obtained by looking at another where "sad" photos are involved: Animal testing. Anynobody 06:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC) (Not to sound pompous, I realize you were asking if WP:NPOV says anything, but I've searched for similar specifics that just aren't there.) Anynobody 06:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I recently undid a revision to the text of this policy [2].
The rationale for my action is as follows:
If you find fault with this rationale, or wish to further clarify the change and explain why it was warranted, please feel free to do so here on the discussion page. Thanks for your consideration. dr.ef.tymac 02:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
The rationale for the change that was reverted is as follows:
Incidentally, changes get made fairly often without any such objection, including the original change to this policy a few months ago that resulted in the wording that I clarified. If the meaning did not change but there is more clarity and definition that special focus articles are not excuses for POV Forks, that is an improvement and should not be objected to.-- Blue Tie 04:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them. (e.g., if you want to write about "Flat Earth" in great detail, do it in the article "Flat Earth" and not the article "Earth").
A POV fork is an attempt to evade NPOV policy by creating a new article about a certain subject that is already treated in an article. (e.g., if you want to write about good and bad aspects of "Earth", do it in the article "Earth", and don't create separate stand-alone articles Earth (good aspects) and Earth (bad aspects)).
Please see WP:BLP/N#Ongoing WP:BLP-related concerns, particularly: WP:BLP/N#WP:BLP#Reliable sources policy section itself, which pertain to questions pertaining to verifiability and reliability of sources of material about living persons (not only biographies but other articles concerning living persons as well), including questions pertaining to sources being linked via "external links" in Wikipedia space ( WP:EL), whether it be in source citations, or in References and/or External links sections. Some of the issues being debated in the talk page of that Wikipedia policy ( Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons) also pertain to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, as well as WP:NOR). Thank you. -- NYScholar 17:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I am seeing this policy being used a lot to justify the removal of relevant sourced material from articles here. It is problematic becuase what does and does not constitute undue weight is very subjective. Bigglove 01:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Is it proper form to begin an article with something like " Jennifer Hudson is an Academy Award winning American actress and singer"? As it reads to me, opening sentences such as this imply a bias, and proper tone would be. -- FuriousFreddy 16:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
It is not a matter of "editorial stylistic preference". Crack open some professional print encyclopedias, and observe how they introduce their subjects. I would be shocked and appalled if any professional encyclopedia article started off with a sentence proclaiming someone as "award-winning", unless their winning a certain award was particularly groundbreakign in some way ( Sidney Poitier, Hattie McDaniel). This issue needs a better solution than an encouragement ot "be bold", because iut's far too widespread for me or any other small group of people to run around trying to fix (especially when other editors wil likely "un-fix" it almost immediately). There needs to be a set policy requiring people to understand how to write in a professional, balanced tone. But will there be? -- FuriousFreddy 16:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I feel everybody has already said what I would say about this, but I've actaully seen this situation in a different light. Once, the Carmen Electra article was lead by "Carmen Electra is a razzie award winning actress". This same form of introduction can also be used to disparage the subject of an article. -- wL< speak· check> 18:37, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
What intrigues me most about this issue is that even the most established editors honestly don't feel anything is wrong with awards in the opening sentence. I've been removing every mention I see about "Grammy/Academy/Emmy winning" etc. in the opening sentence and I usually don't encounter resistance. But every now and then, I find my edits reverted (so far, by two admins [8] [9] and by two editors who have written a lot of GAs [10] [11]). Perhaps POV in the first sentence warrants a more explicit mention in this policy? Spellcast 13:15, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Concerning Laura Pausini: I take issue with User:Spellcast and other "crusaders" like him/her with purist stances against the mention of awards in the opening sentence of an article. Now, I say "crusaders" because even Spellcast admits, "I've been removing every mention I see about 'Grammy/Academy/Emmy winning' etc. in the opening sentence."
Their argument is seemingly logical—seemingly, because it's also biased. No one ever makes mention of the Nobel Prize. A quick scan through the biographies of Nobel laureates reveals that 3 in 4 such articles mention the award in the opening sentence. No one seems to have a problem with this. Why? Nobel laureates were nominated and selected by a group of their peers and/or "authorities" in their discipline just like Academy Award– and Grammy Award–winners. Why the double standard? Why is one prize held in higher esteem than all others? User:FuriousFreddy suggests we "crack open some professional print encyclopedias" to see their level of professionalism, but even these mention Nobel laureate in the opening sentence of their entries.
Secondly, the purists seem to have a problem with quoting precedent (unless it's convenient for them, of course). User:Extraordinary Machine suggests sympathizers who claim that "other articles have similar intros" are ignorant. FuriousFreddy states "if everyone else is screwing up, that means you'd screw up right alongside them." It will greatly inconvenience these users to know that even featured articles ( Bette Davis, Henry Fonda, Jake Gyllenhaal, Diane Keaton, Norman Borlaug are but a few examples that a quick scan yielded) which Wikipedia holds in greatest esteem contain the "screwed-up," "ignorant" practice of including awards in the opening sentence. Perhaps the real "verbal fluff" is Wikipedia's claim:
I have a hard time believing five articles with NPOV "problems" in the opening sentence slipped past the editors.
Finally, FuriousFreddy says the practice is acceptable if "their winning a certain award was particularly groundbreakign in some way." It just so happens that Laura Pausini's Grammy gave her the distinction of being the first Italian female to win the award. In the Grammy Award's 50-year history, Pausini is only the second Italian to win the American award. Had Spellcast taken the time to read the article, he/she would have known this. But again, there is a fixation among editors to do away with "violations" that they skip over context to serve their righteous campaign.
Because of these reasons I am undoing Spellcast's edit. I have read the purists' arguments and what I see is bias and discrimination. Oskarg956 04:32, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
The pseudoscience wording on the WP:NPOV/FAQ has been repeatedly changed over the last two weeks, from:
As NPOV itself was initially drafted with pseudoscience in mind (the "physics cranks"), the former wording is six years old, and Arbcom has affirmed its intent, I would like to see consensus.
I'm not sure how many people are watching the FAQ; there is much cruft, but the pseudoscience wording has been absolutely critical in demonstrating that we are concerned about scientific majorities and minorities, not popular majorities and minorities, on science articles. Marskell 06:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
What do mainstream physics texts say on the matter? What do the majority of prominent physicists say on the matter? Is there significant debate one way or the other within the mainstream scientific community on this point?
If your viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts.
If your viewpoint is held by a significant scientific minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents, and the article should certainly address the controversy without taking sides. Link
SV raises (yet again) a very important point. Clearly science articles should be guided by the majority POV of scientists, but that's not necessarily the case for non-science articles. I've witnessed a number of long, heated debates over articles which involve a conflict between scientific and popular POVs. When a clear consensus holds in the scientific community but not in the general public, some argue strenuously that NPOV demands representing only the scientific consensus, while others argue NPOV demands representing all views in the general population. People shout "NPOV!" and "undue weight" at each other until their faces turn blue because this policy page is not at all clear on the issue. For example, I think we do need some guidelines for when the sciientific POV reigns and when it does not. Gnixon 00:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I've restored the passage that read "The task before us is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." It is a central notion and so a necessary passage and it stood since the earliest version of the policy WP:NPOV - 25 February 2002 Odd nature 23:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Just to add a comment on Mark Purdey. I was quite attracted to the theory at the time. A relative of mine was explaining how they were forced by the UK government to use organophosphates (OPs) to deal with an outbreak of warble fly in the UK (they thought this stuff was quite frightening and especially did not like the way it made the cattle's skin crackle and fizz). It was around the same time as BSE was first being recognised, and also at a similar time that Parkinsons Disease and Alzheimers was gaining recognition and there seemed to be some correlation with farm workers and OPs. At that time, nobody had any idea what was going on.
Mark's theory was plausible and so it got coverage at a time there was no indication of anyone else having a clue. The BSE Inquiry did not ignore this, and there is clear coverage here [13]. What that said was roughly that it could not have been the cause of the disease, but it was plausible, but unproven, that OPs could make animals more susceptible. I'm not aware that there has been any significant press coverage on this issue in recent years (BSE is pretty much buried as a press topic though I presume there are still instances of the disease being found in the UK - another reason for being circumspect with the press).
So, it is an amateur work, but amateur is not the same as pseudo-science and it would in this case be inappropriate to characterise it as a fringe theory (though it could still turn out to be wrong), it was recognised as worthy of investigation.
On that basis, there is a good scientific source that can be used as a foundation for any comments, and I would presume that there should be more up to date research. It is a legitimate subject to be covered, it was an important part of the search for understanding. However, care should be taken to reflect the speculative nature of the theory. What would be inappropriate would be to say something like "The inquiry showed OPs were not the cause but the Sunday Times dismissed this assertion based on its review of Mark Purdey's work." - we could not give credibility to the Times without doing significant validation of how they came to the conclusion.
The general problem is to differentiate between speculative press comment, effectively their own original research or uncritical review, quality summaries of scientific papers that might not be in an accessible form for mere mortals, green agendas of reporters and so on. The quality of the piece needs to be assessed on each instance and it must be recognised that newspapers will not see the need for the pedantic accuracy of phrasing that peer reviewed scientific sources would expect. Spenny 01:16, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
A different wording question:
The article states:
Without more what?
Softtest123 12:28, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
There is currently a debate about the use of the word "terrorism" in the narrative voice over at Talk:September 11, 2001 attacks. I believe its use violates the idea of letting the facts speak for themselves[WP:NPOV#Let_the_facts_speak_for_themselves], and also violates the guidelines specific to the word at WP:TERRORIST. Furthermore, it shows cultural bias, because articles about attacks against non-americans (such as the Guildford pub bombings) are described using neutral language, in accordance with these two principles.
There are some editors there who believe that WP:UNDUE trumps all this, and are aggressively defending the use of this word, contrary to both policy and guidelines. They have plainly stated that they won't listen and will just revert any edit they don't like [14]. I would appreciate some outside comment about this. Damburger 09:18, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I took the freedom of creating a redirect to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#A simple formulation at WP:ASF, as I believe it's a very important and also widely misunderstood or at least underappreciated aspect of the policy and having a redirect to it can come in handy in many related disputes. I also put a link to WP:POV in the section. It's an essay on how to present point of views, which I think is both worthwile and instructive. — AldeBaer 12:42, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure. But if WP:NPOV is regularly not being correctly interpreted, and needs rather more immediate impact on readers in dispute, something to point to, then maybe a bullet point summary of some kind that editors can objectively refer to, might sometimes help in neutrality disputes, wherever it's put. A list of common NPOV points that can be quickly cited and referred to. We use these on some policies, to draw bright line rules for non-controversial matters (See WP:CSD for an example.) FT2 ( Talk | email) 17:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
An interesting thought occurred to me during some discussions at WT:NFC (talk page of non-free content page):
"How much do the pictures used in an article contribute to the NPOV of the article?"
One argument might be that pictures are purely decoration, and only the text can transmit a point-of-view. My feeling though is that when you have a biographical article of someone, the article needs to cover (as far as possible) all aspects of their life - their birth, their childhood, their education, their career, their family, their old age and their death. I'm wondering whether an article can become unbalanced if you only use pictures of when someone is a child, or when they are an old person, as opposed to a picture of them when they were famous. The free/non-free image issue is also a problem. In some cases, not many pictures are available at all, and that is an insurmountable problem. In other cases, you have free pictures of people at all stages of their lives. Then you have cases where all known pics are non free, so you have to choose just one to use under fair use, if that. Finally, you have cases where there are a mix of free and non-free images. The classic example is the case when the available pictures of a person during their career (or whatever they are famous for) are all non-free pictures. If the person is still living, so the theory goes, you try and get someone to take a free picture. But what happens if the end result of this is that you end up with a picture of a very old, decrepit person in the last years of their life? Surely this is in itself misleading, and it would be better to have no picture at all? Even when the person dies, you are left with a free picture that should, in theory, be used instead of the non-free ones of that person when they were famous. But wait! Give it a few more years and the copyright starts to expire on some of the pictures of this person. Wonderful! Oh, hang on. The newly free pics are of a 10-year-old kid playing at the seaside. Hmm. Not ideal. Does anyone else begin to see how the stringent application of the non-free policy on images of people ends up with Wikipedia being more likely to have free pics of people when they are retired, or public domain pics of when they were young, and how only much later will Wikipedia be able to freely use the pics of these people as they were when they were famous? This seems to me to be a very unbalanced way of illustrating an encyclopedia, and thus it seems to be to me against the spirit of the NPOV policy. Ideally, an encyclopedia will, when illustrating a biographical article, select as their first choice the picture of the person when they are famous. But the free content encyclopedia, until such time as free content becomes more widespread, will, in the cases of retired but still living people, be biased towards pictures of them when they are retired, or when they are young.
So my question for people here is whether, in principle, the fair-use of a non free picture could ever be claimed to improve an article to the extent that it helps to address NPOV issues in that article? Carcharoth 20:54, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
The more I think about it, the more I get to dislike the section name undue weight. I believe it has an unnecessarily forbidding ring to it and communicates a generally negative outlook. This could be avoided simply by renaming the section to Due weight, which far more accurately transports what the section is about: Instructing —ideally motivating— users to give due weight to all relevant aspects. It shouldn't preemptively instruct them not to give undue weight; that point follows logically while the opposite I feel is not so much the case. Aspects regarding fringe views should of course still appropriately state what they do now.
I also learned to despise the capitalized redirect WP:UNDUE, which likewise carries a connotation of general negativeness instead of far more desirable encouragement. Who would favour this biting buzzword UNdue over the simple, straightforward, positive and accurate due weight? Since use of WP:UNDUE is practically ubiquitous, it couldn't possibly be abandoned. But may I suggest introducing a positive counterbalance by creating WP:DUE? — AldeBaer 23:52, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
A) A measure by which we can judge the completeness and faithfulness of our use of references.
B) A policy meant to increase the neutral tone of all articles.
C) Something else.
D) Both.
I would say the answer is A) since NPOV essentially says the sources should speak for themselves.
The reason I would say B) is incorrect is that statements not backed by a reference are simply unproven assertions which need a {{
fact}} tag. If that assertion turns out to be backed by a reference the {{
fact}} tag is removed regardless of how "neutral" the tone is.
Since I think B) is wrong, then I also think D) is too.
As an example I refer to Hitler; most sources point to him as being responsible for The Holocaust. No matter what else is said about him in the article, a reader is going to walk away thinking of him as a murderer (unless they are neo nazis). If we operated under B) we'd have to neutralize that impression, which actually seems POV in a different way.
Surely someone must have an opinion on this interpretation. Anynobody 23:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
But would we really include a POV for which no reliable/verifiable references could be added? Lets say a group of people form what they call a religion, but everyone else terms a cult. Proponents of B) would say NPOV dictates we avoid using the word cult because it implies bias and therefore POV, whereas A) would dictate using the word since this is what the reference calls them.
I realize it may seem like a balance issue, but A) and B) actually conflict with each other. Since a reference may be saying the kind of things a person following B) might delete or "neutralize" by a rewording. Contentious info that may sound NPOV but also has no source should probably be removed rather than reworded, since if a reference could be found it'd be eligible to be reincluded. Rewording an assertion without a reference for the sake of balance could be creating WP:OR unintentionally. Anynobody 01:16, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Wouldn't accuracy be determined by accuratly describing the sources? It's my understanding that what is right or wrong is secondary to what can be referenced.
It's a bit of an absurd example but; Imagine nobody had ever published or discussed the fact that absorption of red light makes the sky appear blue. Most of us can see it's blue, we just look up and see it. Now lets say the color blind editor of a respected magazine writes an article on why the sky is yellow. If this were the only source about the color of our sky, we'd have to say it's yellow too since saying the truth would be WP:OR without a source for it. Anynobody 03:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I take NPOV to mean that Wikipedia should try to maintain neutrality, in matters where testing is impractical (religion, ethics, etc.) or meaningless (opinion). I sometimes refer to the "voice of Wikipedia" and the "voice of [whoever made the description]." In particular, some editors assert that biased statements must remain in the voice of Wikipedia, not even attributed to the voice of whomever is appropriate, unless sourced statements challenge the biased statement. As far as I can tell, applied consistently, this interpretation would mean that editors could always add more bias against exterminated groups, and never remove bias against such groups. Jacob Haller 05:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Apparently, there have been somewhat similar attempts at addressing the general issue of NPOV failing to distinguish between ideological and systemic bias — or "narrative bias and selective bias", as called in
this post. It looks as if that attempt ended in a cl*st*rf*ck group hug, as did others. OTOH, I don't think a complete rewrite is necessary (or at all doable), clarifying ASF and possibly UNDUE should do the job. —
AldeBaer 18:57, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Take a look at this proposal. — AldeBaer 14:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
That is a great idea. I especially like how it addresses trivia sections too. Anynobody 03:45, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
What templates can be used to inform that an article/section/inline statement may have problems with WP:UNDUE?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 16:02, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Is it correct to use the concept of "undue weight" as it is used in " Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction)#Notability and undue weight"?
Regards, G.A.S 20:32, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
NPOV is non-negotiable, as Jimbo said, but of course that's not true. It should rather be "the spirit of NPOV is non-negotiable". The wording of WP:NPOV can indeed be interpreted and twisted in an non-NPOV way, and I think the policy should explicity warn against doing so, if only by prominently linking to Wikipedia:Gaming the system, the related behavioral guideline. — [ aldebaer] 22:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Does [15] meet NPOV? I look at it and I say "who cares?", but that's not a policy. -- NE2 18:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I've made this removal from the undue weight section, as the same thing is said at least twice, in only slightly different words, above it. Seems unlikely to be controversial, but I note it anyways. Picaroon (t) 01:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
An interesting discussion broke out in Talk:Anti-gravity about the concept of Undue Weight. To me the definition is clear as it is, but in retrospect it seems that it is definitely possible to misunderstand it. Specifically, the issue is that the definition does not clearly define who's "weight" needs to be considered. As I understand the definition, possibly incorrectly, the weigh has to be among people "in the field". If this is the case, then I believe this should be made more clear. Maury 13:53, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
My opinion is that if there are statements by experts in reliable sources the POV should be presented in a neutral, plausible manner. It is appropriate to state that the POV is not a majority opinion, or that it is pseudoscience as described in equal validity and pseudoscience. 74s181 14:56, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
It would be best not to unilaterally add examples to the policy page. Please discuss them on the talk page and achieve some sort of consensus that they are appropriate first. The Shakespeare examples recently added (and removed by me) do not seem particularly illustrative. If an example is in fact needed, it should be to a stable article rather than one which is in constant flux. The balance in the cited article is tenuous at best , and it shouldn't be enshrined as a gold standard. - Nunh-huh 18:15, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
We don't care to mention this bias at all do we? Perhaps we should consider doing so at some point? Richard001 04:06, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Anthropocentrism...? Well, when dolphins become Wikipedia editors maybe then we can care, otherwise it's a completely ridiculous thing to be worried about. Encyclopedias are written for humans. They reflect human views. There is no other view. As far as we know there is no other view, so there's nothing to be concerned with.
The anthropocentrism template was deleted as nonsense, and rightly so. DreamGuy 05:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Richard001, as I understand it, you're referring to bias in articles where topics relevant to humans receive more and more detailed coverage than those related to other animals (such as in articles about organs, diseases, and so on). The ommission of such content is partly a result of the simple fact that there are generally more sources about humans and partly due to systemic bias (not surprising given the species affiliation of editors). It is not, however, relevant to the NPOV policy, which concerns the presentation of "views", which non-human animals do not and are not capable of holding. I believe what you're referring to is the result of an underemphasis on how various topics are relevant to animals, but that can only be corrected via editing (and addition of appropriate content). It is not, by itself, a neutrality issue. I hope this clarifies why I removed the tag. -- Black Falcon ( Talk) 06:19, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems someone took this request literally! [16] No, sorry. Yes, we will automatically assume every biography is about a human, we will not specify. Yes, this is even though articles about non-humans ( Rin Tin Tin, Jumbo, Socks (cat)) gives their species in the very first sentence or even article title. Yes, articles about diseases will by default be about the disease in humans, and will happily make Wikipedia:Featured article without giving equal weight, or even a mention, to any other species ( Acute_myeloid_leukemia, Coeliac disease, Cystic fibrosis, Down syndrome Prostate cancer, Schizophrenia). -- AnonEMouse (squeak) 01:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Plausibility seems to be an important aspect of NPOV that isn't adequately explained. It is mentioned in WP:NPOV#Fairness_of_tone:
We should write articles with the tone that all positions presented are at least plausible, bearing in mind the important qualification about extreme minority views.
My interpretation of this is that each POV should be presented as plausible. I think the definition of plausible that is meant here is "appearing worthy of belief". That is, some group larger than a tiny minority believes 'X', this implies that they have some reason to do so, therefore, their POV should be presented as if it were plausible or 'worthy of belief'.
In other words, any POV that is significant enough to be presented on WP deserves to be presented in a plausible manner, not in a way that makes it appear ridiculous or silly. This seems like an important concept. I'd like to expand on it a bit, but before I do, I'd like to get some feedback here. 74s181 12:15, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
A specific proposal to change the second paragraph of 'Fairness of Tone' language. Current:
Proposed replacement / expansion of second paragraph, last revised 74s181 23:25, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I've revised the proposal again to clarify that the presentation of the POV, while plausible, must also be neutral. Let me know what you think. 74s181 23:25, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment I don't want editors "revising" beliefs which they find implausible to match their ideas of the plausible. I don't think the exception for extreme minority beliefs is appropriate either. I suggest that:
Does anyone object if I move forward with this and edit the article? 74s181 14:58, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
If we are going to characterize disputes neutrally, we should present competing views with a consistently fair and sensitive tone. Many articles end up as partisan commentary even while presenting both points of view. Even when a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinion, an article can still radiate an implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or more subtly their organization.
An objective test for fairness of tone is plausibility. If a particular point of view meets the requirements for inclusion ( verifiable, not original research, not a tiny minority view) then it must be treated as plausible. That is, the description of what the POV is and why it is believed must be written so as to appear worthy of belief. One way to determine the plausibility of a particular statement or article section is to ask, "Would a member of the group with POV X agree that this is a neutral presentation of their POV?" Statements about a POV can be implausible even when references and quotes from the believing group are used. Such statements are in violation of Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy and are unnecessarily offensive to those who support the POV.
Another description of plausibility is respect without endorsement. Although it is appropriate to identify a minority view or pseudoscience as such, editors should never portray any POV as 'silly' or attempt to objectively prove one point of view by ridiculing another. Any statement describing a POV should be written so as to appear reasonable within the worldview of the group who believes it, or, in other words, as a member of the believing qroup would neutrally present it.
That's the proposal. 74s181 23:04, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, maybe this particular thread has gotten too long and lost the original context. This is absolutely not about 'truth' and does not change anything about WP:V. Rather, it is about expanding upon a word already used in the current "Fairness of tone" section, that is, 'plausible'. Right now this word stands more or less as Jossi has described it, "fluid and ambiguous". I think this word defines a key NPOV concept but needs a bit more explanation. Expanding on it as I have done above could provide a tool to help editors better evaluate what they or someone else has written about a POV that they violently disagree with, or think is 'just silly'. 74s181 02:11, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
We should write articles with the tone that all competing positions presented are at least worthy of independent evaluation, bearing in mind the important qualification about extreme minority views. We should present all significant, competing views impartially, and leave judgments about the credibility of any given "side" in a dispute to the readers.
I was in a bit of a hurry and missed the mark in my earlier statement, the problem is not that 'plausible' is "fluid and dynamic" the problem is with "Fairness of tone". The jury, or reader, evaluates notions of Truth, not 'plausibility'. If NPOV has truly been achieved then all POVs will appear 'plausible' to all readers. As editors we are required to present all POVs as possibly true, in a fair and neutral manner. IMHO, the desired reader response is "I don't believe this but I can see why group X does."
'Neutral' is well defined, and easy to reach. However, 'Fairness of tone' is an aspect of NPOV that is much more subjective. A particular POV can easily be 'neutralized' as described in 'A simple formulation' while remaining partisan or 'unfair'. Applying the 'plausibility' test makes it easier to achieve fairness.
Plausible is used in the current 'Fairness of tone' section because it is a word that has a specific meaning: superficially fair, reasonable, pleasing, or persuasive; appearing worthy of belief. It doesn't mean something is true, it just means that it is written as if it is true, it appears to be 'worthy of belief'. So, the idea is, a little more emphasis on plausibility makes it easier to achieve both fairness and neutrality when we're writing about a POV that we think is 'silly'. We can look at what has been written and say, 'it doesn't look plausible, therefore, it isn't neutral yet'. It also provides a tool for an editor who subscribes to a minority POV to use when discussing neutrality and fairness with an editor who holds a different POV and insists that his wording is 'factual' and 'neutral'. It can be 'factual', and 'neutral', but still "radiate an implied stance" and not meet the spirit of NPOV. But if it isn't 'plausible' it clearly needs more work. 74s181 03:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
1 - 1 = 20 - 20, therefore 1 = 20
and flat earth
. Both of these examples demonstrate how the term you are trying to clarify has context-specific application. To repeat Spenny: "What you can do is present their logic baldly, without comment". Injecting "plausibility" into apparently specious viewpoints (that nonetheless warrant inclusion in WP for some reason or another) is just not our job."...I can see the arguments group X use." Why can you 'see' them, what is it that you see? You see that they are plausible, or worthy of belief. That doesn't mean that you believe them, but some non-tiny-minority group does, and we're not calling for straitjackets. 74s181 13:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
"1 - 1 = 20 - 20, therefore 1 = 20" I'm not familiar with this particular 'crackpot theory', but I suspect those who believe it present it in a slightly different, less 'bald' manner. The policy language I've proposed says that it should be presented as the believers would, but then it should be identified as pseudoscience with a reliable source quote like: "the arguments of group X can be boiled down to '1 - 1 = 20 - 20, therefore 1 = 20' which is obviously false". In other words, if the pseudoscience or minority POV is really pseudoscience, or a minority, then there should be plenty of majority POV / reliable source quotes available for rebutal, it isn't necessary for the editor to editorialize. 74s181 13:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
"...1000 years ago, flat earth was reasonable... average person only had the evidence of their own eyes and travelled little... Within that context, it can be presented as plausible." Exactly what I was saying earlier, within a given world view. 74s181 13:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
"...modern age... compelling evidence...no reasonable person... There should be no reason for a flat earth to be presented as a plausible position." But that is exactly what you did. You presented the world view of the believing group in a plausible manner. 74s181 13:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
"...present their logic baldly, without comment..." It is often possible, even easy to present the believer's POV out of context, using only true statements and even quotes from experts within the believing group, and make the POV appear to be 'silly', or, IOW, implausible. I think the result is not truly neutral, this is why the "Fairness of tone" section was written. My goal is to expand it and make the judgement of 'fairness' more objective. 74s181 13:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
"...any reasonable person would dismiss it..." You and I dismiss it because our world view includes other knowleege, but we can both 'see' why the ancients believed it. 74s181 13:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
"...If you go the extra step and make it plausible..." that is exactly what you did when you presented the context or world view of the believing group. You placed the beliefs in context, you didn't imply that those who held the beliefs at that time were insane. 74s181 13:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
"...Pseudo-religions...harder...imprisoned spacemen...SF writer..." Sounds like you're talking about Scientology, if so, you've picked a good example. I am not a Scientologist, I don't accept Hubbard's cosmology, but I suspect most Scientologists do, at least as much as most Christians and Jews accept Book of Genesis cosmology. Scientologists probably believe that Hubbard figured these things out, not that he made them up. Therefore, if I were going to attempt to edit any of the Scientology articles I would want to present their beliefs respectfully, without endorsement. Or in other words, as plausible. 74s181 13:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I took a quick look at the Scientology article, at this moment the lead looks like it could be a bit more neutral, more 'plausible'. The statement "...created by American pulp fiction author L. Ron Hubbard..." is a bit of a problem, it "...radiate(s) an implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or more subtly their organization", do you see that? It implies that Hubbard, a writer of fiction, 'created' or wrote Scientology just like he wrote many other works of 'pulp fiction'. Therefore, Scientology is a crock, right?
I believe the statement violates "Fairness of tone". I believe it could be more neutral, more fair, more plausible, without being 'false' or offensive to those who reject Scientology. Is there a more neutral verb than 'created'? Must we identify Hubbard as a 'pulp fiction' author in this particular statement? This particular construction is only important if you're trying to 'prove' something. It shouldn't be necessary to do this, I say, let the facts speak for themselves. "...the article on Hitler does not start with "Hitler was a bad man"—we don't need to..." Similarly, the article on Scientology doesn't need to start with "...created by American pulp fiction author..." Maybe this particular example is a bit extreme, but I think it illustrates the need to improve the definition of "Fairness of tone", to make it more objective. 74s181 13:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
To 74s181 we seem to be talking past one another here. You've reiterated some points that no one seems to be disagreeing with. Nevertheless, there are threshold considerations that you don't seem to be addressing. Consider these basic "questions" and "responses".
So far, you've given pretty elaborate and even well-reasoned discussion of points A through D. My guess is you'd probably agree (at least partially) with all the responses above to those points. Point (E), however, seems to be the most glaring point of disagreement here; a point made (at least indirectly) by more than one contributor to this discussion; a point reinforced by the very length of this (ever growing) discussion thread.
So far, there's no evidence to conclude your proposed clarification is going to help, but ample evidence to suggest it is going to confuse people. Even the people who entirely understand what you are saying do not agree that your proposal is going to fix more than it breaks. dr.ef.tymac 14:08, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Earlier, Spenny said:
This is the difference between the Creationism and Evolution articles. This is what I'm looking for in the WP:NPOV policy, but I can't find it. This is what I meant by 'plausibility'. I think it is related to "Fairness" although I can see that perhaps it is not strictly "Fairness of tone". If this concept is already in WP:NPOV I've missed it, can someone please point it out? And if it isn't there, does anyone else besides me support trying to add it? 74s181 13:11, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I've started a subpage ( Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view/Killing_NPOV) for discussion of an RfC regarding the proper unbiased terms to use for killings. I've seen this problem in very many articles where a pejorative or biased label for a killing (murder, atrocity, massacre, brutal murder, etc.) is used as objective fact (rather than offered as someone's opinion). Please direct any comments you may have there. Fourdee 01:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Pursuant to issues raised in the above discussion it seems to me that some clarification of NPOV is needed due to probably unintentional ambiguity in how it is phrased. I have started another subpage (hope that is the right way to handle this) at Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view/Fact_disputedfact_value which outlines the proposed addition of the following table:
Proposition | Description | Examples | Voice |
---|---|---|---|
Fact | A factual statement which is not disputed. | Mars is a planet. Tennis is played with rackets. Water is a liquid. |
Voice of editor. |
Disputed fact | A statement of fact for which there are differing published opinions or which has been questioned by another editor. | John F. Kennedy was shot only by Lee Harvey Oswald. All events are pre-determined. Humans evolved from other mammals. |
Attributed to published source. |
Value (opinion) | A statement of value, worth or morality. | The holocaust was barbaric. Rembrandt is one of the most important painters. Powered flight was a significant accomplishment. |
Attributed to published source. |
Again please direct comments to Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view/Fact_disputedfact_value as apparently there is some considerable dispute about the place of value judgments on wikipedia and this may take some time. Fourdee 10:04, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Ive seen NPOV used as an excuse to delete sourced material that is claimed to be POV, even tho editor has has simply listed facts from a source that is considered reliable at least by him. In this case the opposing editors declare that their POV is not represented by enough sources and thus the sourced material should be removed as it is in their mind in violation of NPOV, while refusing to find sources because then their lock on content would no longer hold. Is this use of NPOV as a tool for censoring other editors work supported by the policy? -- Alexia Death 20:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous user left a message on a talk page which got me thinking: would a neutral point of view really be a point of view at all?-- h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 17:46, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Look, why not simply admit, in this article, that the production of any Wikipedia article is going to ultimately, at some level of writing judgement, going to require either some kind of uncited synthesis of facts or POVs, or else uncited judgement about balance of synthesis of POVs in your writing? Which itself is of course a POV, and one which you are (in all likelihood) never going to be able to provide a WP:ATT CITE for. Since THAT would involve outside-wikipedia publication of some judgement on the style and POV balance of the particular Wikipedia piece which you're working on. Thus, you are bound to transgress NPOV badly at some level, or metalevel, for any Wikipedia work. In the name of honesty, why not just admit the inevitability of this? And then be done with it? I'm tired of all this pretention of objectivity in the face of an enterprise which is ultimately driven by polling and voting on ArbCom, and similar fora. S B H arris 22:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
There has been some recent discussion about the neutrality of relative terms such as "tall" and "short" and other things. It has been said that it is never NPOV to call someone tall because that is a relative term. I'm almost certain that is not what is intended by NPOV, but I admit that a relative statement that doesn't specify what it is relative to is a potential source for dispute. It can be asked, "Tall compared to what?" The discussion that originated this question is rather silly, so I won't bring it up, but suppose I were to say, " Shaquille O'Neal is tall." Would that be a violation of NPOV? We've got reliable sources to say that he is over 7 feet. I am thinking that "Shaq is tall" is beyond serous dispute. -- Lilwik 21:45, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
For something that obvious I would be surprised anyone who would argue that on their own would be smart enough to live that long without falling into a well. Relative statements are NPOV as long as they are used in relation to some average or standard. A Bently or Maserati is expensive because probably 90% of production cars aren't comparable to them in price. Shaq is tall because most people are significantly shorter than him, and even among people of similar race/regional heritage/genetic descendancy or whatever you want to call it, he's notably taller than average. The best way to avoid this in cases where there could be a dispute would probably be to be as specific as possible without getting rediculous. If you can, use a relative term with what it is relative to. In some cases citation will be needed to establish the standard and/or the trait of the object in question. To use the car example again, it would be easy to establish that a maserati is expensive, no sources probably needed, but if you were to state that it is faster than most cars, you'd probably want to source some top speed figures for both it and the industry at large. If you were to say that a certain building were tall, source its height, and you probably want to mention how that height stacked up relative to other buildings. -- Oni Ookami Alfador Talk| @ 22:19, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I've made a couple of edits to this section to fix a slightly misleading impression that may be given:
Significance: It ensures the discussion of "conflicting views" is in relation to conflicting views within the topic, not conflicting views between editors.
I've also tried to remove the impression that all views are discussed without heed as to weight, by a few minor wording changes elsewhere.
DIFF. FT2 ( Talk | email) 09:41, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Old version
Proposed new verion
Does this convey the meaning that is intended more clearly? Tim Vickers 02:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Original version
Draft 2
Is this clearer? Tim Vickers 15:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is devoted to stating facts in the sense as described above. (emphasis not in original)
Assert facts, including facts about opinions — but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can.
By value or opinion, on the other hand, we mean "a matter which is subject to dispute." There are bound to be borderline cases where it is not clear if a particular dispute should be taken seriously and included. [1] However, there are many propositions that very clearly express values or opinions. That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion. That the Beatles were the greatest band in history is a value or opinion. That the United States was right or wrong to drop the atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a value or opinion.
Wikipedia is devoted to stating facts in the sense as described above. Therefore, where we want to discuss an opinion, we attribute the opinion to someone and discuss the fact that they have this opinion. For example, rather than asserting, "The Beatles were the greatest band," we can say: "Most people from Liverpool believe that the Beatles were the greatest band," which can be supported by references to a particular survey; or "The Beatles had many songs that made the Billboard Hot 100," which is also verifiable as fact. In the first instance we assert a personal opinion; in the second and third instances we assert the fact that an opinion exists, by attributing it to reliable sources.
It is not sufficient to discuss an opinion as fact merely by stating "some people believe..." as is common in political debates. [2] A reliable source supporting that a group holds an opinion must accurately describe how large this group is. In addition, this source should be written by named authors who are considered reliable.
Moreover, there are usually disagreements about how opinions should be properly stated. Sometimes it is necessary to qualify the description of an opinion, or to present several attributed formulations, simply to arrive at a solution that fairly represents all the leading views in those matters subject to dispute. As an example, there is a dispute over using the name "Sea of Japan" to refer to the sea bordered by Russia, Japan, North Korea, and South Korea. The Sea of Japan, or equivalent translations, are currently most common in international productions, but North and South Korea insist on different names. North Korea proposes the "East Sea of Korea" and South Korea proposes the "East Sea", or the "Sea of Korea/Korean Sea". To fairly reflect these views in articles discussing this sea, the most common name of "Sea of Japan" should be used, with the alternative terms noted and attributed to the respective countries.
A balanced selection of sources is also critical for producing articles with a neutral point of view. For example, when discussing the facts on which a point of view is based, it is important to also include the facts on which competing opinions are based since this helps a reader evaluate the credibility of the competing viewpoints. This should be done without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also important to make it clear who holds these opinions. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view.
I don't like the change to credible dispute. This really opens up a can of worms as people fight to dismiss what they deem as not "credible". The dispute should follow Undue Weight and Verifiability. Morphh (talk) 15:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Re-worded and referred to undue weight. Tim Vickers 16:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Update: Re-added formatting, footnotes, additional changes. I changed the "undue weight" mention to a "see also" footnote, because "undue weight" describes proportionality between the varying "sides" in a dispute, whereas in "simple formulation", one question is whether the entire dispute itself is legitimate. In other words, if no one seriously disputes "water is wet" ... then no "opinions" (pro or con) should go in the article at all, and thus "undue weight" is (in that instance) moot. dr.ef.tymac 17:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Looks good to me. Morphh (talk) 19:47, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Me also, this definitely clarifies the matters initially mentioned by Tim Vickers. dr.ef.tymac 21:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I think we should add this, it has the same meaning - so is not a change in policy, and it seems much clearer to me. Tim Vickers 19:51, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Update: Still waiting for other contributors with alternate viewpoints to join in on the discussion. In the meantime, I've added minor adjustments that correct minor (yet blatantly obvious) flaws. This is just a band-aid for the policy page; the entire section still merits updating as proposed here in talk. dr.ef.tymac 15:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Follow-up: Additional note for the sake of principle. Edits to WP policy pages by contributors who are parties to an ongoing content dispute are rightly subject to a very high degree of scrutiny. If anyone has forwarded proposals here specifically to advance a position in a pending dispute, they will do well to demonstrate good faith by disclosing that fact openly.
Modifications to policy should be strictly for the purpose of clarification and consistency. Attempts to change the substance and meaning of policy (without prior discussion and consensus) are entirely inappropriate. dr.ef.tymac 19:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Tim asked me to comment. I think the new draft is an improvement. Particularly, the 3rd paragraph is great, and it's much improved. It does an excellent job of explicitly showing how to state facts about opinions instead of stating the opinions themselves. I like that it's so concrete. Unfortunately, after the 3rd paragraph, I think the discussion kind of gets lost. Here are a couple suggestions:
Good work so far. I'd support inserting it as is, but it'd be great if there were a few improvements first. Good luck, and let me know if I can do anything to help. Gnixon 16:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
As an example, saying "intelligent design is described as a scientific theory by some people but as a religious idea by others" is not acceptable, but the opinions should be attributed in accordance with NPOV: Undue weight, for example – "intelligent design is described as a scientific theory by its proponents but the overwhelming majority of the scientific community reject this assertion, and a U.S. Federal court has found it to be 'religion, not science'."
Intelligent design is described as a scientific theory by its proponents, but the U.S. National Academy of Science has said that it is not science (cite), and a U.S. federal court has found it to be 'religion, not science' (cite).
Urgent Recommendation: IMHO the latest revision of the proposal is in all respects quite well-constructed, all respects except for one. I'd like to (vehemently) suggest the example citing "Intelligent Design" be entirely removed, and replaced with an example citing "Flat Earth" ... there is simply too much "baggage" associated with the former example. It is almost certain to engender quibbles, tangential discussions, and distraction from the principle purpose of this policy.
Moreover, the "Flat earth" example is already included elsewhere in this policy; even in sections of the policy that are adequately-written and coherent. If it is concluded that "Flat earth" is not sufficiently contentious to illustrate the core principles at issue here, then I propose changing it to an example that does *not* center on religion, such as a disputed naming convention. (See e.g., Geographical_renaming#Naming_disputes, Sea of Japan naming dispute).
I beseech you, please avoid examples involving "religion vs. science". dr.ef.tymac 16:35, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi everybody. Is there anybody who has any objection to the current draft of the summary being added to the article? I'll put the two next to each other to allow simple comparison. Tim Vickers 16:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Old version
Assert facts, including facts about opinions — but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can.
By value or opinion, on the other hand, we mean "a piece of information about which there is some dispute." There are bound to be borderline cases where we are not sure if we should take a particular dispute seriously; but there are many propositions that very clearly express values or opinions. That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion. That the Beatles were the greatest band in history is a value or opinion. That the United States was right or wrong to drop the atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a value or opinion.
Wikipedia is devoted to stating facts in the sense as described above. Where we might want to state an opinion, we convert that opinion into a fact by attributing the opinion to someone. So, rather than asserting, "The Beatles were the greatest band," we can say, "Most Americans believe that the Beatles were the greatest band," which is a fact verifiable by survey results, or "The Beatles had many songs that made the Billboard Hot 100," which is also fact. In the first instance we assert an opinion; in the second and third instances we "convert" that opinion into fact by attributing it to someone. This is not the same as the "some people believe..." formulation popular in political debates. The reference requires an identifiable and objectively quantifiable population, and should be attributed to named individuals who are regarded as reliable.
Moreover, there are usually disagreements about how opinions should be properly stated. Sometimes, it will be necessary to qualify the description of an opinion or to present several formulations, simply to arrive at a solution that fairly represents all the leading views of the situation.
But it is not enough, to express the Wikipedia non-bias policy, just to say that we should state facts and not opinions. When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view.
New proposal
Assert facts, including facts about opinions — but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can.
By value or opinion, on the other hand, we mean "a matter which is subject to dispute." There are bound to be borderline cases where it is not clear if a particular dispute should be taken seriously and included. [3] However, there are many propositions that very clearly express values or opinions. That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion. That the Beatles were the greatest band in history is a value or opinion. That the United States was right or wrong to drop the atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a value or opinion.
Wikipedia is devoted to stating facts in the sense described above. Therefore, where we want to discuss an opinion, we attribute the opinion to someone and discuss the fact that they have this opinion. For example, rather than asserting, "The Beatles were the greatest band," we can say: "Most people from Liverpool believe that the Beatles were the greatest band," which can be supported by references to a particular survey; or "The Beatles had many songs that made the Billboard Hot 100," which is also verifiable as fact. In the first instance we assert a personal opinion; in the second and third instances we assert the fact that an opinion exists, by attributing it to reliable sources.
It is not sufficient to discuss an opinion as fact merely by stating "some people believe..." as is common in political debates. [4] A reliable source supporting that a group holds an opinion must accurately describe how large this group is. In addition, this source should be written by named authors who are considered reliable.
Moreover, there are usually disagreements about how opinions should be properly stated. To fairly represent all the leading views in a dispute it is sometimes necessary to qualify the description of an opinion, or to present several formulations of this opinion and attribute them to specific groups.
A balanced selection of sources is also critical for producing articles with a neutral point of view. For example, when discussing the facts on which a point of view is based, it is important to also include the facts on which competing opinions are based since this helps a reader evaluate the credibility of the competing viewpoints. This should be done without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also important to make it clear who holds these opinions. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view.
Support. This is an improvement. However, it's troubling that "A simple formulation" has almost doubled in length. Can we trim it down either before or after it is inserted? I feel like a lot is repeated within the last three paragraphs. Gnixon 17:35, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Support Morphh (talk) 18:12, 03 July 2007 (UTC)
Looks good to me, just two points:
Text size: regarding the size, some of the text was subsumed into footnotes. The footnotes contribute to the bytecount, but obviously not the body text itself. If "Sea of Japan" (or any alternative example) becomes necessary, it can also be re-added as a footnote.
Reminder: Also, there may be some issues for contributors who have commented in edit summaries, but have not contributed to this ongoing discussion in any detail. Since this is not a substantive modification to pre-existing policy, there may be a need to remind people that this is not a "change" but rather a "clarification" ... in case this latter point becomes an issue. This proposal (IMHO) survives good-faith scrutiny from someone familiar with established WP policy, but everyone has his or her own way of seeing things.
Really though, it'd be a waste not to implement this (or a substantially similar) improvement. dr.ef.tymac 19:11, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I think this page needs a rewrite, and that the policy tag should come off it in the meantime. It's hard to see how an FAQ can be policy in the first place. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin (talk) (contribs) 07:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
<unindent> Help!!! If the FAQ is no longer policy, then we have a policy of Common objections or concerns, but no policy clarifying the answers to these concerns. As it is, guidance on several sensitive talk pages now points to sections that have disappeared from the FAQ: for example, Giving "equal validity" is a common concern with no evident answer in the FAQ. Could you please consider the proposed improvements in a sandbox, meanwhile leaving the headings for us folks working on articles who need to refer to them. It does seem daft having a FAQ as policy: the answer to that is to make Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Common objections and clarifications into a set of brief statements in a section that could be headed Common clarifications – if we don't, we end up with no policy on Pseudoscience. The FAQ could remain as detailed background and clarification, but would no longer be policy. In the short term, a return to the previous status quo would greatly help at a time when arguments about what is or isn't science from theology students and sockpuppets seem to be increasingly frequent. .. dave souza, talk 17:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I strongly feel this page should retain the format and rewording it had when it was spun off the main policy page, for what it's worth. And clearly it must remain policy since it was policy before. FeloniousMonk 02:36, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm seeing a contradiction in this article:
As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. It is a point of view that is neutral, that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject.
We should present all significant, competing views sympathetically.
Are we presenting them sympathetically or not? Richard001 05:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
It is ok to use names of religion, races, communities, individuals as examples for dictionary terms those are traditionally used as a prejudice? BalanceRestored 13:33, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Context: Please see this ANI discussion for background information. Abecedare 23:51, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Just as I and others indicated in the ANB report linked above
WP:IDONTLIKEIT isn't a reason for removal of any article. BalanceRestored was rebuffed at the ANB thread, and has come here to shop for a new venue.
To put the issue into proper perspective, he is claiming that the word Nastika is an abusive term. However, Dictionary definition from established sources show that the word means:
Unless Wikipedia starts censoring words, such venue shopping is just wastage of everyone's time. For details, please refer to the ANI thread linked above, and Talk:Nastika. Thanks. -- Ragib 08:56, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Quoted thesis from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view
Thesis: That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion.
It is, in fact, neither. I offer this for clarification ( I owe this to the distinguished American philosopher, John Kekes, whom I over-heard in conversation)
Revised thesis: That the arbitrary torture, rape and murder of young children in front of their parents and siblings is wrong is a value or opinion.
Such a point of view is often associated with early Wittgenstein and "the Vienna Circle". It is not a tenable moral standpoint. There are numerous articles on wikipedia that establish this uncomfortable fact beyond a doubt. To blindly hold to this comfortable fact-value distinction is not rational. We look for the better theory, not just the facts. And not just any facts. The facts that we need given our objectives. And that is not just a matter of opinion.
Just an observation on the little highlight here [1]. Not sure why it was a comment, but it is a valid point. Long term Wikipedians need to remember that the audience ought to be the general public, not died in the wool Wikipedians. Using phrases like POV fork do tend to make people who are less into it glaze over and turn off. Spenny 09:26, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
It's been a while since I checked but the references I added to the notability pages have been removed. The idea that "tiny minority" views "do not belong in Wikipedia" does touch on issues of notability, not just neutrality, sicne what's so unneutral about including them in separate articles if verifiable information exists? Not every verifiable, unoriginal research viewpoint can be included in separate articles. Does this suggest then a new "notability" criterion for viewpoints, namely the number of adherents as opposed to verifiable coverage? Furthermore the statement "If you are able to prove something that no one or few currently believe, Wikipedia is not the place to premiere such a proof. " The number of believers has absolutely nothing to do with it. A whole bunch of people could believe it but the first publication still cannot be in Wikipedia! (Of course if enough do believe it it could get published easily by someone else somewhere else but that's not what I'm talking about -- I'm talking about the bar for inclusion itself, not circumstances arising from some situation). Similarly you can publish a proof and if absolutely nobody at all believes it yet it stirred up a lot of attention and third-party reporting (see WP:V, WP:N, WP:RS) it may still be able to be mentioned in Wikipedia (although the article should of course be written the right way obviously) and this must be reflected. mike4ty4 07:00, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
I've slightly edited the scientific bias to add:
Scientific bias has always been a problem since on the one hand, SPOV is not NPOV, but on the other hand it often should have great weight, and reducing that weight is often seen as creating a licence for minority theories, pseudoscience and WP:WEIGHT problems in general.
The above addition, I think, addresses that issue, by making clear that a bias for or against scientific orthodoxy becomes problematic when other notable viewpoints cease to be neutrally represented as a result.
Example - explaining that science doesn't support homeopathy is fine. But when that view extends to a failure to treat homeopathists views neutrally, that is, with due weight and fair tone, it's a problem. In the same way, to report phrenology with a strong bias towards that subject, without reporting the scientific viewpoint neutrally, is also an NPOV problem, this time an anti-scientific bias. FT2 ( Talk | email) 10:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I think this is a good addition (especially without "orthodoxy"). However, I suspect some people will be strongly against it because of the pseudoscience issue. Gnixon 15:49, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
There is a big problem growing in the area of "logic" and "mathematical logic." The problem extends to perhaps many dozens of articles, and more every day. There is a group of people in the very organized WikiProject Mathematics who are of the strong opinion that "mathematical logic" is not "logic." This has lead to numerous territory issues in the creation of WikiProject Logic, which is intended as an interdisciplinary subject connected to philosophy, and perhaps linguistics, computer science, etc.
Well these guys don't have to share anything if they don't want to, and they don't want to. They have as many people babysitting the wikipedia as they need to A) keep anti-logicist propaganda in the articles, B) have split project areas for logic stubs/math-logic stubs C) remove all the mathematical logicians from the logicians category D) remove several categories out from under the logic category (including mathematical logic) E) disintegrate numerous articles into conceptx (logic), and conceptx (mathematics) which are the same concept. The issues go on and on. It is a serious issue to the intellectual integrity of the wikipedia. I am not sure that this discussion page is where to go, but perhaps someone can suggest a way to address this. I have started an account for myself on meta wikipedia, but it is not clear when to go in there either. Please advise. Gregbard 21:59, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
The following was recently added:
Whilst true, this feels rather like a sore thumb sticking out; the addition of a point to be used in debate.
Can other eyeballs help decide if this statement, added this way, is the most appropriate way to cover something like this? FT2 ( Talk | email) 13:09, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
This is just a note to register support for the clarification just done by User:IanMSpencer. I recently flagged a subsection for copy editing but I never got around to it. Ian's edit provided precisely the modification that seemed necessary there. I add this just in case there was any misunderstanding about what I was referring to with the comment, which I've now removed. Thanks. dr.ef.tymac 00:42, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Hello, all. I am a relative newbie on Wikipedia, and I have spotted a few articles which I believe should be tagged as not expressing a NPOV. Maybe only an administrator can do this, but otherwise, could someone please reveal to me the code that is used to insert those "notice" boxes? Thanks.-- Surfaced 18:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Please help decide a NPOV issue at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Challenges and issues of industrial agriculture. Thank you. WAS 4.250 17:55, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
It would be easier for new people to find the Neutral point of view article if there were a disambiguation page, where, if someone types the commonly seen "NPOV" into a search engine, he can more easily find the link to this site. Brian Pearson 14:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Am I alone in finding it distasteful when wikipedia policy pages quote the words of Jimbo Wales as gospel? Either our policies are justified on their own merits or they are not. I find it rather gauche. john k 15:19, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Would it be a violation of NPOV principles for an article to be written in such a way that it provokes an emotional response in the reader? In other words, should emotive terms be avoided in the interests of neutrality? I have read through the article, the tutorial and the examples and I can't find any explicit statement on this... yet it seems self-evident that, just as wikipedia should not tell the reader what to think, nor should it tell them how to feel about a subject.
What do other editors think about this? Is there a place in this article (or tutorial/examples) for such an issue to be raised - or clarified? Sheffield Steel talkers stalkers 19:40, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Do you mean something like this?:
compared to:
Anynobody 04:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Tough issue, I think you are most likely correct about the motivation of the person wanting to add said photos. On the other hand it seems like a justifiable encyclopedic desire to want some kind of illustration.
What's the source? If it's a pro-life group's photos they use in protests I'd say skip it because those pictures have been picked because they look the "saddest". A scientific, academic or governmental picture is less likely to be chosen for such reasons.
I also suspect that guidance on this issue can be obtained by looking at another where "sad" photos are involved: Animal testing. Anynobody 06:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC) (Not to sound pompous, I realize you were asking if WP:NPOV says anything, but I've searched for similar specifics that just aren't there.) Anynobody 06:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I recently undid a revision to the text of this policy [2].
The rationale for my action is as follows:
If you find fault with this rationale, or wish to further clarify the change and explain why it was warranted, please feel free to do so here on the discussion page. Thanks for your consideration. dr.ef.tymac 02:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
The rationale for the change that was reverted is as follows:
Incidentally, changes get made fairly often without any such objection, including the original change to this policy a few months ago that resulted in the wording that I clarified. If the meaning did not change but there is more clarity and definition that special focus articles are not excuses for POV Forks, that is an improvement and should not be objected to.-- Blue Tie 04:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them. (e.g., if you want to write about "Flat Earth" in great detail, do it in the article "Flat Earth" and not the article "Earth").
A POV fork is an attempt to evade NPOV policy by creating a new article about a certain subject that is already treated in an article. (e.g., if you want to write about good and bad aspects of "Earth", do it in the article "Earth", and don't create separate stand-alone articles Earth (good aspects) and Earth (bad aspects)).
Please see WP:BLP/N#Ongoing WP:BLP-related concerns, particularly: WP:BLP/N#WP:BLP#Reliable sources policy section itself, which pertain to questions pertaining to verifiability and reliability of sources of material about living persons (not only biographies but other articles concerning living persons as well), including questions pertaining to sources being linked via "external links" in Wikipedia space ( WP:EL), whether it be in source citations, or in References and/or External links sections. Some of the issues being debated in the talk page of that Wikipedia policy ( Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons) also pertain to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, as well as WP:NOR). Thank you. -- NYScholar 17:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I am seeing this policy being used a lot to justify the removal of relevant sourced material from articles here. It is problematic becuase what does and does not constitute undue weight is very subjective. Bigglove 01:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Is it proper form to begin an article with something like " Jennifer Hudson is an Academy Award winning American actress and singer"? As it reads to me, opening sentences such as this imply a bias, and proper tone would be. -- FuriousFreddy 16:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
It is not a matter of "editorial stylistic preference". Crack open some professional print encyclopedias, and observe how they introduce their subjects. I would be shocked and appalled if any professional encyclopedia article started off with a sentence proclaiming someone as "award-winning", unless their winning a certain award was particularly groundbreakign in some way ( Sidney Poitier, Hattie McDaniel). This issue needs a better solution than an encouragement ot "be bold", because iut's far too widespread for me or any other small group of people to run around trying to fix (especially when other editors wil likely "un-fix" it almost immediately). There needs to be a set policy requiring people to understand how to write in a professional, balanced tone. But will there be? -- FuriousFreddy 16:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I feel everybody has already said what I would say about this, but I've actaully seen this situation in a different light. Once, the Carmen Electra article was lead by "Carmen Electra is a razzie award winning actress". This same form of introduction can also be used to disparage the subject of an article. -- wL< speak· check> 18:37, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
What intrigues me most about this issue is that even the most established editors honestly don't feel anything is wrong with awards in the opening sentence. I've been removing every mention I see about "Grammy/Academy/Emmy winning" etc. in the opening sentence and I usually don't encounter resistance. But every now and then, I find my edits reverted (so far, by two admins [8] [9] and by two editors who have written a lot of GAs [10] [11]). Perhaps POV in the first sentence warrants a more explicit mention in this policy? Spellcast 13:15, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Concerning Laura Pausini: I take issue with User:Spellcast and other "crusaders" like him/her with purist stances against the mention of awards in the opening sentence of an article. Now, I say "crusaders" because even Spellcast admits, "I've been removing every mention I see about 'Grammy/Academy/Emmy winning' etc. in the opening sentence."
Their argument is seemingly logical—seemingly, because it's also biased. No one ever makes mention of the Nobel Prize. A quick scan through the biographies of Nobel laureates reveals that 3 in 4 such articles mention the award in the opening sentence. No one seems to have a problem with this. Why? Nobel laureates were nominated and selected by a group of their peers and/or "authorities" in their discipline just like Academy Award– and Grammy Award–winners. Why the double standard? Why is one prize held in higher esteem than all others? User:FuriousFreddy suggests we "crack open some professional print encyclopedias" to see their level of professionalism, but even these mention Nobel laureate in the opening sentence of their entries.
Secondly, the purists seem to have a problem with quoting precedent (unless it's convenient for them, of course). User:Extraordinary Machine suggests sympathizers who claim that "other articles have similar intros" are ignorant. FuriousFreddy states "if everyone else is screwing up, that means you'd screw up right alongside them." It will greatly inconvenience these users to know that even featured articles ( Bette Davis, Henry Fonda, Jake Gyllenhaal, Diane Keaton, Norman Borlaug are but a few examples that a quick scan yielded) which Wikipedia holds in greatest esteem contain the "screwed-up," "ignorant" practice of including awards in the opening sentence. Perhaps the real "verbal fluff" is Wikipedia's claim:
I have a hard time believing five articles with NPOV "problems" in the opening sentence slipped past the editors.
Finally, FuriousFreddy says the practice is acceptable if "their winning a certain award was particularly groundbreakign in some way." It just so happens that Laura Pausini's Grammy gave her the distinction of being the first Italian female to win the award. In the Grammy Award's 50-year history, Pausini is only the second Italian to win the American award. Had Spellcast taken the time to read the article, he/she would have known this. But again, there is a fixation among editors to do away with "violations" that they skip over context to serve their righteous campaign.
Because of these reasons I am undoing Spellcast's edit. I have read the purists' arguments and what I see is bias and discrimination. Oskarg956 04:32, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
The pseudoscience wording on the WP:NPOV/FAQ has been repeatedly changed over the last two weeks, from:
As NPOV itself was initially drafted with pseudoscience in mind (the "physics cranks"), the former wording is six years old, and Arbcom has affirmed its intent, I would like to see consensus.
I'm not sure how many people are watching the FAQ; there is much cruft, but the pseudoscience wording has been absolutely critical in demonstrating that we are concerned about scientific majorities and minorities, not popular majorities and minorities, on science articles. Marskell 06:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
What do mainstream physics texts say on the matter? What do the majority of prominent physicists say on the matter? Is there significant debate one way or the other within the mainstream scientific community on this point?
If your viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts.
If your viewpoint is held by a significant scientific minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents, and the article should certainly address the controversy without taking sides. Link
SV raises (yet again) a very important point. Clearly science articles should be guided by the majority POV of scientists, but that's not necessarily the case for non-science articles. I've witnessed a number of long, heated debates over articles which involve a conflict between scientific and popular POVs. When a clear consensus holds in the scientific community but not in the general public, some argue strenuously that NPOV demands representing only the scientific consensus, while others argue NPOV demands representing all views in the general population. People shout "NPOV!" and "undue weight" at each other until their faces turn blue because this policy page is not at all clear on the issue. For example, I think we do need some guidelines for when the sciientific POV reigns and when it does not. Gnixon 00:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I've restored the passage that read "The task before us is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." It is a central notion and so a necessary passage and it stood since the earliest version of the policy WP:NPOV - 25 February 2002 Odd nature 23:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Just to add a comment on Mark Purdey. I was quite attracted to the theory at the time. A relative of mine was explaining how they were forced by the UK government to use organophosphates (OPs) to deal with an outbreak of warble fly in the UK (they thought this stuff was quite frightening and especially did not like the way it made the cattle's skin crackle and fizz). It was around the same time as BSE was first being recognised, and also at a similar time that Parkinsons Disease and Alzheimers was gaining recognition and there seemed to be some correlation with farm workers and OPs. At that time, nobody had any idea what was going on.
Mark's theory was plausible and so it got coverage at a time there was no indication of anyone else having a clue. The BSE Inquiry did not ignore this, and there is clear coverage here [13]. What that said was roughly that it could not have been the cause of the disease, but it was plausible, but unproven, that OPs could make animals more susceptible. I'm not aware that there has been any significant press coverage on this issue in recent years (BSE is pretty much buried as a press topic though I presume there are still instances of the disease being found in the UK - another reason for being circumspect with the press).
So, it is an amateur work, but amateur is not the same as pseudo-science and it would in this case be inappropriate to characterise it as a fringe theory (though it could still turn out to be wrong), it was recognised as worthy of investigation.
On that basis, there is a good scientific source that can be used as a foundation for any comments, and I would presume that there should be more up to date research. It is a legitimate subject to be covered, it was an important part of the search for understanding. However, care should be taken to reflect the speculative nature of the theory. What would be inappropriate would be to say something like "The inquiry showed OPs were not the cause but the Sunday Times dismissed this assertion based on its review of Mark Purdey's work." - we could not give credibility to the Times without doing significant validation of how they came to the conclusion.
The general problem is to differentiate between speculative press comment, effectively their own original research or uncritical review, quality summaries of scientific papers that might not be in an accessible form for mere mortals, green agendas of reporters and so on. The quality of the piece needs to be assessed on each instance and it must be recognised that newspapers will not see the need for the pedantic accuracy of phrasing that peer reviewed scientific sources would expect. Spenny 01:16, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
A different wording question:
The article states:
Without more what?
Softtest123 12:28, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
There is currently a debate about the use of the word "terrorism" in the narrative voice over at Talk:September 11, 2001 attacks. I believe its use violates the idea of letting the facts speak for themselves[WP:NPOV#Let_the_facts_speak_for_themselves], and also violates the guidelines specific to the word at WP:TERRORIST. Furthermore, it shows cultural bias, because articles about attacks against non-americans (such as the Guildford pub bombings) are described using neutral language, in accordance with these two principles.
There are some editors there who believe that WP:UNDUE trumps all this, and are aggressively defending the use of this word, contrary to both policy and guidelines. They have plainly stated that they won't listen and will just revert any edit they don't like [14]. I would appreciate some outside comment about this. Damburger 09:18, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I took the freedom of creating a redirect to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#A simple formulation at WP:ASF, as I believe it's a very important and also widely misunderstood or at least underappreciated aspect of the policy and having a redirect to it can come in handy in many related disputes. I also put a link to WP:POV in the section. It's an essay on how to present point of views, which I think is both worthwile and instructive. — AldeBaer 12:42, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure. But if WP:NPOV is regularly not being correctly interpreted, and needs rather more immediate impact on readers in dispute, something to point to, then maybe a bullet point summary of some kind that editors can objectively refer to, might sometimes help in neutrality disputes, wherever it's put. A list of common NPOV points that can be quickly cited and referred to. We use these on some policies, to draw bright line rules for non-controversial matters (See WP:CSD for an example.) FT2 ( Talk | email) 17:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
An interesting thought occurred to me during some discussions at WT:NFC (talk page of non-free content page):
"How much do the pictures used in an article contribute to the NPOV of the article?"
One argument might be that pictures are purely decoration, and only the text can transmit a point-of-view. My feeling though is that when you have a biographical article of someone, the article needs to cover (as far as possible) all aspects of their life - their birth, their childhood, their education, their career, their family, their old age and their death. I'm wondering whether an article can become unbalanced if you only use pictures of when someone is a child, or when they are an old person, as opposed to a picture of them when they were famous. The free/non-free image issue is also a problem. In some cases, not many pictures are available at all, and that is an insurmountable problem. In other cases, you have free pictures of people at all stages of their lives. Then you have cases where all known pics are non free, so you have to choose just one to use under fair use, if that. Finally, you have cases where there are a mix of free and non-free images. The classic example is the case when the available pictures of a person during their career (or whatever they are famous for) are all non-free pictures. If the person is still living, so the theory goes, you try and get someone to take a free picture. But what happens if the end result of this is that you end up with a picture of a very old, decrepit person in the last years of their life? Surely this is in itself misleading, and it would be better to have no picture at all? Even when the person dies, you are left with a free picture that should, in theory, be used instead of the non-free ones of that person when they were famous. But wait! Give it a few more years and the copyright starts to expire on some of the pictures of this person. Wonderful! Oh, hang on. The newly free pics are of a 10-year-old kid playing at the seaside. Hmm. Not ideal. Does anyone else begin to see how the stringent application of the non-free policy on images of people ends up with Wikipedia being more likely to have free pics of people when they are retired, or public domain pics of when they were young, and how only much later will Wikipedia be able to freely use the pics of these people as they were when they were famous? This seems to me to be a very unbalanced way of illustrating an encyclopedia, and thus it seems to be to me against the spirit of the NPOV policy. Ideally, an encyclopedia will, when illustrating a biographical article, select as their first choice the picture of the person when they are famous. But the free content encyclopedia, until such time as free content becomes more widespread, will, in the cases of retired but still living people, be biased towards pictures of them when they are retired, or when they are young.
So my question for people here is whether, in principle, the fair-use of a non free picture could ever be claimed to improve an article to the extent that it helps to address NPOV issues in that article? Carcharoth 20:54, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
The more I think about it, the more I get to dislike the section name undue weight. I believe it has an unnecessarily forbidding ring to it and communicates a generally negative outlook. This could be avoided simply by renaming the section to Due weight, which far more accurately transports what the section is about: Instructing —ideally motivating— users to give due weight to all relevant aspects. It shouldn't preemptively instruct them not to give undue weight; that point follows logically while the opposite I feel is not so much the case. Aspects regarding fringe views should of course still appropriately state what they do now.
I also learned to despise the capitalized redirect WP:UNDUE, which likewise carries a connotation of general negativeness instead of far more desirable encouragement. Who would favour this biting buzzword UNdue over the simple, straightforward, positive and accurate due weight? Since use of WP:UNDUE is practically ubiquitous, it couldn't possibly be abandoned. But may I suggest introducing a positive counterbalance by creating WP:DUE? — AldeBaer 23:52, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
A) A measure by which we can judge the completeness and faithfulness of our use of references.
B) A policy meant to increase the neutral tone of all articles.
C) Something else.
D) Both.
I would say the answer is A) since NPOV essentially says the sources should speak for themselves.
The reason I would say B) is incorrect is that statements not backed by a reference are simply unproven assertions which need a {{
fact}} tag. If that assertion turns out to be backed by a reference the {{
fact}} tag is removed regardless of how "neutral" the tone is.
Since I think B) is wrong, then I also think D) is too.
As an example I refer to Hitler; most sources point to him as being responsible for The Holocaust. No matter what else is said about him in the article, a reader is going to walk away thinking of him as a murderer (unless they are neo nazis). If we operated under B) we'd have to neutralize that impression, which actually seems POV in a different way.
Surely someone must have an opinion on this interpretation. Anynobody 23:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
But would we really include a POV for which no reliable/verifiable references could be added? Lets say a group of people form what they call a religion, but everyone else terms a cult. Proponents of B) would say NPOV dictates we avoid using the word cult because it implies bias and therefore POV, whereas A) would dictate using the word since this is what the reference calls them.
I realize it may seem like a balance issue, but A) and B) actually conflict with each other. Since a reference may be saying the kind of things a person following B) might delete or "neutralize" by a rewording. Contentious info that may sound NPOV but also has no source should probably be removed rather than reworded, since if a reference could be found it'd be eligible to be reincluded. Rewording an assertion without a reference for the sake of balance could be creating WP:OR unintentionally. Anynobody 01:16, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Wouldn't accuracy be determined by accuratly describing the sources? It's my understanding that what is right or wrong is secondary to what can be referenced.
It's a bit of an absurd example but; Imagine nobody had ever published or discussed the fact that absorption of red light makes the sky appear blue. Most of us can see it's blue, we just look up and see it. Now lets say the color blind editor of a respected magazine writes an article on why the sky is yellow. If this were the only source about the color of our sky, we'd have to say it's yellow too since saying the truth would be WP:OR without a source for it. Anynobody 03:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I take NPOV to mean that Wikipedia should try to maintain neutrality, in matters where testing is impractical (religion, ethics, etc.) or meaningless (opinion). I sometimes refer to the "voice of Wikipedia" and the "voice of [whoever made the description]." In particular, some editors assert that biased statements must remain in the voice of Wikipedia, not even attributed to the voice of whomever is appropriate, unless sourced statements challenge the biased statement. As far as I can tell, applied consistently, this interpretation would mean that editors could always add more bias against exterminated groups, and never remove bias against such groups. Jacob Haller 05:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Apparently, there have been somewhat similar attempts at addressing the general issue of NPOV failing to distinguish between ideological and systemic bias — or "narrative bias and selective bias", as called in
this post. It looks as if that attempt ended in a cl*st*rf*ck group hug, as did others. OTOH, I don't think a complete rewrite is necessary (or at all doable), clarifying ASF and possibly UNDUE should do the job. —
AldeBaer 18:57, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Take a look at this proposal. — AldeBaer 14:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
That is a great idea. I especially like how it addresses trivia sections too. Anynobody 03:45, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
What templates can be used to inform that an article/section/inline statement may have problems with WP:UNDUE?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 16:02, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Is it correct to use the concept of "undue weight" as it is used in " Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction)#Notability and undue weight"?
Regards, G.A.S 20:32, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
NPOV is non-negotiable, as Jimbo said, but of course that's not true. It should rather be "the spirit of NPOV is non-negotiable". The wording of WP:NPOV can indeed be interpreted and twisted in an non-NPOV way, and I think the policy should explicity warn against doing so, if only by prominently linking to Wikipedia:Gaming the system, the related behavioral guideline. — [ aldebaer] 22:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Does [15] meet NPOV? I look at it and I say "who cares?", but that's not a policy. -- NE2 18:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I've made this removal from the undue weight section, as the same thing is said at least twice, in only slightly different words, above it. Seems unlikely to be controversial, but I note it anyways. Picaroon (t) 01:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
An interesting discussion broke out in Talk:Anti-gravity about the concept of Undue Weight. To me the definition is clear as it is, but in retrospect it seems that it is definitely possible to misunderstand it. Specifically, the issue is that the definition does not clearly define who's "weight" needs to be considered. As I understand the definition, possibly incorrectly, the weigh has to be among people "in the field". If this is the case, then I believe this should be made more clear. Maury 13:53, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
My opinion is that if there are statements by experts in reliable sources the POV should be presented in a neutral, plausible manner. It is appropriate to state that the POV is not a majority opinion, or that it is pseudoscience as described in equal validity and pseudoscience. 74s181 14:56, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
It would be best not to unilaterally add examples to the policy page. Please discuss them on the talk page and achieve some sort of consensus that they are appropriate first. The Shakespeare examples recently added (and removed by me) do not seem particularly illustrative. If an example is in fact needed, it should be to a stable article rather than one which is in constant flux. The balance in the cited article is tenuous at best , and it shouldn't be enshrined as a gold standard. - Nunh-huh 18:15, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
We don't care to mention this bias at all do we? Perhaps we should consider doing so at some point? Richard001 04:06, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Anthropocentrism...? Well, when dolphins become Wikipedia editors maybe then we can care, otherwise it's a completely ridiculous thing to be worried about. Encyclopedias are written for humans. They reflect human views. There is no other view. As far as we know there is no other view, so there's nothing to be concerned with.
The anthropocentrism template was deleted as nonsense, and rightly so. DreamGuy 05:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Richard001, as I understand it, you're referring to bias in articles where topics relevant to humans receive more and more detailed coverage than those related to other animals (such as in articles about organs, diseases, and so on). The ommission of such content is partly a result of the simple fact that there are generally more sources about humans and partly due to systemic bias (not surprising given the species affiliation of editors). It is not, however, relevant to the NPOV policy, which concerns the presentation of "views", which non-human animals do not and are not capable of holding. I believe what you're referring to is the result of an underemphasis on how various topics are relevant to animals, but that can only be corrected via editing (and addition of appropriate content). It is not, by itself, a neutrality issue. I hope this clarifies why I removed the tag. -- Black Falcon ( Talk) 06:19, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems someone took this request literally! [16] No, sorry. Yes, we will automatically assume every biography is about a human, we will not specify. Yes, this is even though articles about non-humans ( Rin Tin Tin, Jumbo, Socks (cat)) gives their species in the very first sentence or even article title. Yes, articles about diseases will by default be about the disease in humans, and will happily make Wikipedia:Featured article without giving equal weight, or even a mention, to any other species ( Acute_myeloid_leukemia, Coeliac disease, Cystic fibrosis, Down syndrome Prostate cancer, Schizophrenia). -- AnonEMouse (squeak) 01:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Plausibility seems to be an important aspect of NPOV that isn't adequately explained. It is mentioned in WP:NPOV#Fairness_of_tone:
We should write articles with the tone that all positions presented are at least plausible, bearing in mind the important qualification about extreme minority views.
My interpretation of this is that each POV should be presented as plausible. I think the definition of plausible that is meant here is "appearing worthy of belief". That is, some group larger than a tiny minority believes 'X', this implies that they have some reason to do so, therefore, their POV should be presented as if it were plausible or 'worthy of belief'.
In other words, any POV that is significant enough to be presented on WP deserves to be presented in a plausible manner, not in a way that makes it appear ridiculous or silly. This seems like an important concept. I'd like to expand on it a bit, but before I do, I'd like to get some feedback here. 74s181 12:15, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
A specific proposal to change the second paragraph of 'Fairness of Tone' language. Current:
Proposed replacement / expansion of second paragraph, last revised 74s181 23:25, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I've revised the proposal again to clarify that the presentation of the POV, while plausible, must also be neutral. Let me know what you think. 74s181 23:25, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment I don't want editors "revising" beliefs which they find implausible to match their ideas of the plausible. I don't think the exception for extreme minority beliefs is appropriate either. I suggest that:
Does anyone object if I move forward with this and edit the article? 74s181 14:58, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
If we are going to characterize disputes neutrally, we should present competing views with a consistently fair and sensitive tone. Many articles end up as partisan commentary even while presenting both points of view. Even when a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinion, an article can still radiate an implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or more subtly their organization.
An objective test for fairness of tone is plausibility. If a particular point of view meets the requirements for inclusion ( verifiable, not original research, not a tiny minority view) then it must be treated as plausible. That is, the description of what the POV is and why it is believed must be written so as to appear worthy of belief. One way to determine the plausibility of a particular statement or article section is to ask, "Would a member of the group with POV X agree that this is a neutral presentation of their POV?" Statements about a POV can be implausible even when references and quotes from the believing group are used. Such statements are in violation of Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy and are unnecessarily offensive to those who support the POV.
Another description of plausibility is respect without endorsement. Although it is appropriate to identify a minority view or pseudoscience as such, editors should never portray any POV as 'silly' or attempt to objectively prove one point of view by ridiculing another. Any statement describing a POV should be written so as to appear reasonable within the worldview of the group who believes it, or, in other words, as a member of the believing qroup would neutrally present it.
That's the proposal. 74s181 23:04, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, maybe this particular thread has gotten too long and lost the original context. This is absolutely not about 'truth' and does not change anything about WP:V. Rather, it is about expanding upon a word already used in the current "Fairness of tone" section, that is, 'plausible'. Right now this word stands more or less as Jossi has described it, "fluid and ambiguous". I think this word defines a key NPOV concept but needs a bit more explanation. Expanding on it as I have done above could provide a tool to help editors better evaluate what they or someone else has written about a POV that they violently disagree with, or think is 'just silly'. 74s181 02:11, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
We should write articles with the tone that all competing positions presented are at least worthy of independent evaluation, bearing in mind the important qualification about extreme minority views. We should present all significant, competing views impartially, and leave judgments about the credibility of any given "side" in a dispute to the readers.
I was in a bit of a hurry and missed the mark in my earlier statement, the problem is not that 'plausible' is "fluid and dynamic" the problem is with "Fairness of tone". The jury, or reader, evaluates notions of Truth, not 'plausibility'. If NPOV has truly been achieved then all POVs will appear 'plausible' to all readers. As editors we are required to present all POVs as possibly true, in a fair and neutral manner. IMHO, the desired reader response is "I don't believe this but I can see why group X does."
'Neutral' is well defined, and easy to reach. However, 'Fairness of tone' is an aspect of NPOV that is much more subjective. A particular POV can easily be 'neutralized' as described in 'A simple formulation' while remaining partisan or 'unfair'. Applying the 'plausibility' test makes it easier to achieve fairness.
Plausible is used in the current 'Fairness of tone' section because it is a word that has a specific meaning: superficially fair, reasonable, pleasing, or persuasive; appearing worthy of belief. It doesn't mean something is true, it just means that it is written as if it is true, it appears to be 'worthy of belief'. So, the idea is, a little more emphasis on plausibility makes it easier to achieve both fairness and neutrality when we're writing about a POV that we think is 'silly'. We can look at what has been written and say, 'it doesn't look plausible, therefore, it isn't neutral yet'. It also provides a tool for an editor who subscribes to a minority POV to use when discussing neutrality and fairness with an editor who holds a different POV and insists that his wording is 'factual' and 'neutral'. It can be 'factual', and 'neutral', but still "radiate an implied stance" and not meet the spirit of NPOV. But if it isn't 'plausible' it clearly needs more work. 74s181 03:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
1 - 1 = 20 - 20, therefore 1 = 20
and flat earth
. Both of these examples demonstrate how the term you are trying to clarify has context-specific application. To repeat Spenny: "What you can do is present their logic baldly, without comment". Injecting "plausibility" into apparently specious viewpoints (that nonetheless warrant inclusion in WP for some reason or another) is just not our job."...I can see the arguments group X use." Why can you 'see' them, what is it that you see? You see that they are plausible, or worthy of belief. That doesn't mean that you believe them, but some non-tiny-minority group does, and we're not calling for straitjackets. 74s181 13:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
"1 - 1 = 20 - 20, therefore 1 = 20" I'm not familiar with this particular 'crackpot theory', but I suspect those who believe it present it in a slightly different, less 'bald' manner. The policy language I've proposed says that it should be presented as the believers would, but then it should be identified as pseudoscience with a reliable source quote like: "the arguments of group X can be boiled down to '1 - 1 = 20 - 20, therefore 1 = 20' which is obviously false". In other words, if the pseudoscience or minority POV is really pseudoscience, or a minority, then there should be plenty of majority POV / reliable source quotes available for rebutal, it isn't necessary for the editor to editorialize. 74s181 13:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
"...1000 years ago, flat earth was reasonable... average person only had the evidence of their own eyes and travelled little... Within that context, it can be presented as plausible." Exactly what I was saying earlier, within a given world view. 74s181 13:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
"...modern age... compelling evidence...no reasonable person... There should be no reason for a flat earth to be presented as a plausible position." But that is exactly what you did. You presented the world view of the believing group in a plausible manner. 74s181 13:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
"...present their logic baldly, without comment..." It is often possible, even easy to present the believer's POV out of context, using only true statements and even quotes from experts within the believing group, and make the POV appear to be 'silly', or, IOW, implausible. I think the result is not truly neutral, this is why the "Fairness of tone" section was written. My goal is to expand it and make the judgement of 'fairness' more objective. 74s181 13:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
"...any reasonable person would dismiss it..." You and I dismiss it because our world view includes other knowleege, but we can both 'see' why the ancients believed it. 74s181 13:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
"...If you go the extra step and make it plausible..." that is exactly what you did when you presented the context or world view of the believing group. You placed the beliefs in context, you didn't imply that those who held the beliefs at that time were insane. 74s181 13:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
"...Pseudo-religions...harder...imprisoned spacemen...SF writer..." Sounds like you're talking about Scientology, if so, you've picked a good example. I am not a Scientologist, I don't accept Hubbard's cosmology, but I suspect most Scientologists do, at least as much as most Christians and Jews accept Book of Genesis cosmology. Scientologists probably believe that Hubbard figured these things out, not that he made them up. Therefore, if I were going to attempt to edit any of the Scientology articles I would want to present their beliefs respectfully, without endorsement. Or in other words, as plausible. 74s181 13:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I took a quick look at the Scientology article, at this moment the lead looks like it could be a bit more neutral, more 'plausible'. The statement "...created by American pulp fiction author L. Ron Hubbard..." is a bit of a problem, it "...radiate(s) an implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or more subtly their organization", do you see that? It implies that Hubbard, a writer of fiction, 'created' or wrote Scientology just like he wrote many other works of 'pulp fiction'. Therefore, Scientology is a crock, right?
I believe the statement violates "Fairness of tone". I believe it could be more neutral, more fair, more plausible, without being 'false' or offensive to those who reject Scientology. Is there a more neutral verb than 'created'? Must we identify Hubbard as a 'pulp fiction' author in this particular statement? This particular construction is only important if you're trying to 'prove' something. It shouldn't be necessary to do this, I say, let the facts speak for themselves. "...the article on Hitler does not start with "Hitler was a bad man"—we don't need to..." Similarly, the article on Scientology doesn't need to start with "...created by American pulp fiction author..." Maybe this particular example is a bit extreme, but I think it illustrates the need to improve the definition of "Fairness of tone", to make it more objective. 74s181 13:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
To 74s181 we seem to be talking past one another here. You've reiterated some points that no one seems to be disagreeing with. Nevertheless, there are threshold considerations that you don't seem to be addressing. Consider these basic "questions" and "responses".
So far, you've given pretty elaborate and even well-reasoned discussion of points A through D. My guess is you'd probably agree (at least partially) with all the responses above to those points. Point (E), however, seems to be the most glaring point of disagreement here; a point made (at least indirectly) by more than one contributor to this discussion; a point reinforced by the very length of this (ever growing) discussion thread.
So far, there's no evidence to conclude your proposed clarification is going to help, but ample evidence to suggest it is going to confuse people. Even the people who entirely understand what you are saying do not agree that your proposal is going to fix more than it breaks. dr.ef.tymac 14:08, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Earlier, Spenny said:
This is the difference between the Creationism and Evolution articles. This is what I'm looking for in the WP:NPOV policy, but I can't find it. This is what I meant by 'plausibility'. I think it is related to "Fairness" although I can see that perhaps it is not strictly "Fairness of tone". If this concept is already in WP:NPOV I've missed it, can someone please point it out? And if it isn't there, does anyone else besides me support trying to add it? 74s181 13:11, 4 October 2007 (UTC)