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There is a requested move in progress proposing moving the names of some Royal Navy ship types to lower case titles. If you understand what constitutes a proper noun, and the Wikipedia guidelines on capitalisation, please wade in. The discussion is being mainly conducted at Talk:Motor Gun Boat. Thanks. Shem ( talk) 21:00, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
In an international encyclopedia like Wikipedia, it is inevitable that some article titles will have to use language that is only correct in a subset of the various national varieties of a language and is not correct in all of them. This will force Wikipedia to show case by case a limited amount of favoritism to one national variety or another; and while this is unavoidable and therefore perfectly acceptable, it should be recognized as favoritism.
It is often found that the first line of the introductory paragraph of an article reintroduces the title term in bold; and in cases where national varieties differ on the term for the title subject, I propose that we adopt a standard notation that shows as little further favoritism as possible to the national variety used for the title. I propose that the standard notation be: TermA or TermB.
Some articles have taken to mentioning by name the regions which use a national variety different from that used in the title. I recently edited the article for cesium fluoride to this proposed standard; previously, it had read: caesium fluoride (or cesium fluoride in North America). The problem here is that the article calls out North America by name even while it uses the term "or" to denote the existence of multiple possibilities. This implies heavily that the there are multiple possibilities in North America; and by extension that the title term "caesium fluoride" is correct everywhere, whereas the national variety "cesium fluoride" is rather a mere colloquialism used by North Americans in place of the standard term. In reality most North Americans aware of the existence of cesium are unaware of the existence of any spellings of the word with an 'a;' and the academics who might know otherwise nevertheless use "cesium fluoride" and not the British spelling.
In any case, the topic "cesium fluoride" is not really improved by noting where people use which of its names (thus I support my first proposed standard), but should Wikipedia find that it is helpful to readers to know where people use which name, then I would propose that the standard notation for national variations be: TermA (TermB in RegionB). By leaving off the word "or," there is preserved the sense that in RegionB, TermB is the only correct variation; in most cases, this will be both more neutral and more factually correct. In a situation where a spelling popular in one national variety of a language is truly considered by the people of that national variety to be less correct than the variety used in the title, then inclusion of the subordinating "or" is appropriate; but this was not the case for cesium fluoride, nor I'm sure would it be true for the majority of the variation favoritisms shown by necessity on Wikipedia.
130.132.173.179 ( talk) 05:49, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Look, none of this is about who uses what word where. It is also not about the fact that first titles will use whichever regional variant comes first. It is only about subject introductions that follow the title and which retitle the subject using the names of other regions. It is about whether names other than the title one ought to be labelled by region, and if so, it is about how the labeling should be tailored to the specific conditions encountered. Because quite apart from whether or not anyone thinks it's peculiar that Americans or Brits or Atlanteans spell anything any which way, there is the established certainty that you cannot call anything peculiar in an encyclopedia without breaking neutrality. Neither can you imply that a greater number of regional variants, total speakers, or native speakers makes one term more "standard" or more "universal" than another. It is indeed effectively nationalistic if you are setting any one thing as standard when there are multiple, equally unyielding paradigms reigning in multiple places, no matter how small or insignificant one paradigm may consider another to be, and no matter how solid you may consider your reasoning for establishing one or the other as correct.
Hence, my original suggestions: one, leave off the labeling; or two, stop applying the word "or," or any of its variants, in cases where the paradigm not represented in the title does not itself use the title term. Maybe caesium is the proper spelling even in America because of the standard set by IUPAC; and if so, that specific case's resolution is entirely irrelevant to the general notion that "or" should not be used when it implies the existence of options that don't exist.
Here's a better example of what I mean. I typed in the word "pants" in the search bar. In my country, that means trousers. Accordingly, I was redirected to the page for "trousers" where I was informed of this: "Trousers are an item of clothing worn from the waist to the ankles, covering both legs separately (rather than with cloth extending across both legs as in skirts and dresses). They are also called pants in the United States and some other countries."
I have absolutely nothing at all against the word "trousers," nor against its use as the title of the article; but my lack of antipathy toward the word "trousers" does not change the fact that it is still factually inaccurate to say that trousers are "also" called pants in the US. In the US, trousers are only called pants. It is far more factually accurate to say that "Trousers are called pants in the United States and some other countries," without applying frivolously the word "also" in a way that could be misinterpreted as an establishment of the universal standard-ness of the word "trousers" (Misinterpretation of the word "also" would, of course, require unfamiliarity with the distinctions between British and American culture; which is to say, it would require one to be the only kind of person who would actually need to look up what trousers/pants are in the first place.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.132.173.179 ( talk) 05:25, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
Over at String Quartet No. 14 (Schubert) we have an issue about translation. The article quotes (in its entirety) a translation of a German poem on which the quartet is based. The translation is quite free, and is, in fact, the translation that I have seen around. But an editor, quite justifiably, felt a literal translation would be better, which he did himself.
In my youth, many years ago, I remember reading a guideline about translations, but, for the life of me, I can't find it. Are original translations considered original research? Are they preferable to published translations which take freedoms? Do original translations (if allowed at all) have to be attributed to the translator? Ravpapa ( talk) 04:36, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
There is currently a debate over at Talk:Case Closed#Requested move about whether WP:TIES applies to an article name on a topic that has strong ties to a particular non-English-speaking nation. In this case, a work was released under one English title in Japan, but used a completely different English title when it was released in the US, Canada, and the UK. 24.149.119.20 ( talk) 10:58, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Names and titles says "Quotation marks should be used for the following names and titles:" and included in the list is "Computer and video games (but not other software)". However Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Text formatting#Names and titles says italic type should be used for "Computer and video games (but not other software)". Can anyone explain what seems to be a conflict, or propose how we should fix it? Thanks, SchreiberBike talk 05:22, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
See Joan Pujol Garcia and Eddie Chapman.
In both of these articles small caps are used to denote their codenames. This seems somewhat jarring; is there a reason for it that I am unaware of? pablo 12:52, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
I've started a discussion
here as this is a military history question, it should be amended there, not on the main MOS.
CombatWombat42 (
talk) 18:40, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
WP:TIE
WP:TIES stated "An article on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation[...]" So, what is an "English-speaking nation"? This comes up when I was dealing with the decade-old article name case, as the latest RM relies on this clause, despite the subject-matter is such non-English material as
anime (
Case Closed, if you ask). The OP and the supporters of the RM justified the OP's use of TIE on the following:
Personally I don't accept these justifications; you pick 100 random Wikipedians and more than half (and certainly even more) would say Japan is not an English-speaking nation. The lack of definition of that term, however, opens the door to abuse. Hence, I think it should be stated explicitly that policy is only available for ENGVAR and nothing else, and state what is an "English-speaking nation" in the meaning of this guideline.-- Samuel di Curtisi di Salvadori 19:44, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
If my $0.02 means anything, Japan is most certainly not an "English-speaking nation", no matter how much I feel they have basic concepts down far better than any "native English speaker" I've met so far. Fortunately, names are supposed to be divorced from language squabbles, no matter how hard people try to ignore that.
In regards to Conan, "DETECTIVE CONAN" is most certainly an official translation, even if it's still an alternative title in the face of 名探偵コナン; per things like Attack on Titan, we generally use these "official readings" when referring to the original work. Thing is, article titles (and really, articles themselves) are usually based on localizations specifically made for English-speaking countries above all else. Not much more to it, really. Despatche ( talk) 00:53, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
I have a suggestion concerning collapsible galleries of images which by some may be deemed as very graphic or which retract from the average users ability to read an article, especially medical articles which can be considered rough by a large group of non medical professionals. WP:NOTCENSORED states:
Controversial images should follow the principle of 'least astonishment': we should choose images that respect the conventional expectations of readers for a given topic as much as is possible without sacrificing the quality of the article.
This I interpret as stating that images that convey the subject matter in a way that is comprehensible without disgusting the curious user is the best choice. This in no way means that these images always can explain all aspects of the article. So as not to scare off the regular reader pages such as Anencephaly may profit from a collapsible image gallery, such as:
Disclaimer: Graphic images |
---|
|
This removes risk of censorship while at the same time keeping the possibility for vulnerable users to avoid seeing the images, while being able to take part of the textual information. This may apply to quite a few medical articles.
Common practice at most European and American medical schools is to have ethical discussions and to offer counseling for students before entering difficult subjects such as anatomy and pathology. A naïve user stumbling upon these subjects does not have the support given to many medical and dentist etc. students, and as such may be deterred from Wikipedia after seeing these images. CFCF ( talk) 23:04, 6 November 2013 (UTC)What's with this guideline? It makes no sense when compared to things like logical quotation, and it certainly makes no sense within itself; the exceptions are completely arbitrary, especially because these dashes can be used in many of the same contexts as commas at least. I've even been told that references before punctuation hurts the base line somehow... but it's going to be hurt either way; just take a look at any complicated sentence that has multiple sourced (not "multiple-sourced") statements. Clearly, there is a need for "logical punctuation"? I can't be the only one who thinks this. Despatche ( talk) 05:45, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
".(required sometimes in LQ but forbidden in the normal US punctuation style) and
[1].Since the raised reference link can be longer (e.g.
[note 1].), the ugly baseline blank span before the full stop can be much longer. Peter coxhead ( talk) 11:09, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
like this.[note 1] As opposed to this[note 2][clarification needed.). — sroc 💬 22:20, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
"the punctuation has nothing to do with the reference", consider these examples:
Has this guideline changed recently? I am seeing Yobot moving many citations in front of full stops. Strange that this has not been picked up at WP:FAR. I've been adding citations after punctuation for many years believing this is the correct method. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 17:13, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This RFC concerns policy from WP:MOSNUM ( MOS:DATEFORMAT and MOS:BADDATEFORMAT), MOS:COMMA, and WP:NCPLACE:
My proposal is that instead of being mandated or not being mandated, MOS should be changed to make it optional as to whether a comma should be included after a date or a place: April 14–16, 2011 tornado outbreak or April 14–16, 2011, tornado outbreak; Rochester, New York metropolitan area or Rochester, New York, metropolitan area. If passed, a second part of this proposal would mandate that all pages within a certain Project be the same. This means that the comma would be optional on the "national" standpoint, but one version would be mandated by a discussion from a "local" Project standpoint (all pages within any Project either with the comma or without the comma). This allows members of a project to decide themselves on what to do and prevents ridiculously long site-wide discussions such as this. United States Man ( talk) 19:45, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
This would be an ideal situation if the RfC is passed:
— Preceding unsigned comment added by United States Man ( talk • contribs) 13:15, Today (UTC+11)
"And the practice is particularly clumsy when the day as well as the month is given—e.g.: '... its July 12, 2001 privilege order.'"
*Support, for reasons listed from Garner's above. "National" varieties of English shouldn't matter as much as clarity and readability in the English language Wikipedia.
Reify-tech (
talk) 11:46, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
"This allows members of a project to decide themselves on what to do and prevents ridiculously long site-wide discussions such as this."This argument ignores the likely outcome that "members of a project" will have "ridiculously long" arguments over which form to adopt. Much better to have a standard, Wikipedia-wide policy and avoid factional breakaway style policies. — sroc 💬 08:45, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
My proposal basically keeps current guidance on final comma usage, with three exceptions - 1) when the place name/date is followed by other punctuation (this improves the the current "except at the end of a sentence" exception, which does not take into account place names/dates followed by a colon or closed parentheses, etc.); 2) when the place name/date is used by itself (as in a title or list - this should address the "title vs. text" concern; and 3) when the place name/date is used as an adjective. We then explicitly state that the adjectival use can be unwieldy, and recommend against using it.
This proposal puts the MOS in line with major style guides in recommending avoiding the adjectival construction. It also lets us follow Garner in dropping the second comma when it is not required for syntax. (And for those who say that Garner is only "one" guide, it is one of the four major style guides in the English language, along with Chicago, AP, and Fowler's, and the only one that explicitly addresses whether the adjectival use is proper, so we are perfectly justified in following its advice. Chicago says that the second comma "may be deemed obligatory", but does not offer guidance itself on if it is or isn't actually required.) There are no exceptions in this proposal for Project-by-Project decisions, and no justifications for treating titles inconsistently with article text. I realize that this proposal will not satisfy the die-hard "two commas at all costs" crowd, but I hope that it satisfies the people with the concerns I laid out above. Anyhow, here it is:
Incorrect: | On November 24, 1971 Cooper hijacked a Boeing 727 aircraft that had taken off from Portland, Oregon and was destined for Seattle, Washington. |
Correct: | On November 24, 1971, Cooper hijacked a Boeing 727 aircraft that had taken off from Portland, Oregon, and was destined for Seattle, Washington. |
Unwieldy: | The April 7, 2011 trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the Toledo, Ohio courtroom. |
One better way: | On April 7, 2011, the trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the courtroom in Toledo, Ohio. |
Incorrect: | On November 24, 1971 Cooper hijacked a Boeing 727 aircraft that had taken off from Portland, Oregon and was destined for Seattle, Washington. |
Correct: | On November 24, 1971, Cooper hijacked a Boeing 727 aircraft that had taken off from Portland, Oregon, and was destined for Seattle, Washington. |
Avoid: | The April 7, 2011 trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the Toledo, Ohio courtroom. |
Better alternative: | On April 7, 2011, the trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the courtroom in Toledo, Ohio. |
Also avoid: | The April 7, 2011, trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the Toledo, Ohio courtroom. |
Avoid: | The April 7, 2011, trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the Toledo, Ohio, courtroom. |
What about the following compromise, which acknowledges the dispute without taking sides?
Incorrect: | On November 24, 1971 Cooper hijacked an aircraft that had taken off from Portland, Oregon and was destined for Seattle, Washington. |
Correct: | On November 24, 1971, Cooper hijacked an aircraft that had taken off from Portland, Oregon, and was destined for Seattle, Washington. |
Avoid: | The April 7, 2011 trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the Toledo, Ohio courtroom. |
Avoid: | The April 7, 2011, trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the Toledo, Ohio, courtroom. |
Better alternative: | On April 7, 2011, the trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the courtroom in Toledo, Ohio. |
— sroc 💬 03:46, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
Avoid: | The April 7, 2011[,] trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the Toledo, Ohio[,] courtroom. |
Better alternative: | On April 7, 2011, the trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the courtroom in Toledo, Ohio. |
It's been a couple of days now. What's the procedure? Do we wait it out till the 30 days are up and then start another one, or is there another way? -- Stfg ( talk) 22:04, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
The need for a comma after dates in month–day–year format and geographical references with multiple subordinate levels had been discussed on numerous occasions [1] [2] [3] with the consensus being that the final element in each case is taken to be treated as parenthetical and, hence, requires a comma following (unless at the end of a sentence or perhaps superseded by other punctuation). Are we seriously considering abandoning this, despite what the style guides say?
I could understand if the proposal was to exempt the comma when appearing as an adjective (e.g., a London, England townhouse), although I would not support it and would prefer rephrasing to avoid such cases. However, that is not what has been suggested, and I am concerned that some others may be voting on the misapprehension that the proposal only applies to adjectival cases based on the examples given in the original post. — sroc 💬 15:23, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
I have lodged a request to have this RFC brought to a quick end at WP:ANI#Disruptive RFC. Please note that the request is just to close this, not for any kind of action against any editor. -- Stfg ( talk) 18:07, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
The page currently says:
"Periods (also called "full stops"), question marks, and exclamation marks are terminal punctuation, the only punctuation marks used to end sentences in English."
This is incorrect. In dialog, a sentence may end with a dash to indicate that it was interrupted or broken off short. Granted, this will be rare in encyclopedic prose except perhaps in quotations. DES (talk) 21:29, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
If an article's subject has strong national ties to Britain or the US, the article uses the applicable variety of usage. I was therefore surprised to see, on the home page just now, a British spelling in an article about an American-produced series of movies. However, I then realized that these movies are primarily set in Britain; and in addition the main continuing characters are British, are played by British actors, and were created originally by a British author. So there's a good case for British usage being more appropriate.
What I'm wondering is whether there are any specific, explcit guidelines in the MOS as to how to decide whether, in a case like this, (1) the US tie is stronger, (2) the UK tie is stronger, or (3) neither tie is strong enough to mandate the use of the applicable variety of English and therefore the original author's choice should stand. And if not, whether there should be.
If there is no explicit guideline, I am not proposing one, nor am I proposing that there should not be one. I'm just raising the issue. -- 174.88.132.197 ( talk) 04:38, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
MOS:POSS is irritatingly vague on what to use for possessives of words ending in the "s" sound. The BBC and the Guardian seem to favour "Paris's", and it looks better to me as well as passing the sound test. Are there style guides which recommend the "Paris'" form? I propose slightly tightening our recommendations on examples like this. What do others think? -- John ( talk) 14:39, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
I agree that pronunciation is what should govern the choice but, as John said, there are many different ‘rules’ for that. They usually take addition of the final S to be the default, however, the most commonly recommended exceptions being polysyllables and biblical or classical names. FWIW I would write Paris’s.— Odysseus 147 9 00:40, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- "Euphony is the main concern, with the final choice affected by the number of syllables and the letters starting the next word. Consider the following:
- the hiss's sibilance . . .the catharsis's effects . . ."
- US English is more likely to support such genitive possessives . . . with British English tending to transpose the words and insert of . . .
- Use an apostrophe alone after singular nouns ending in an s or z sound and combined with sake:
- for goodness' sake . . ."
Hi, We're having a discussion at Template talk:MOS-TW#Suggest "names" → "nouns" and we could use the help of editors who are familiar with the following sentence from MOS:IDENTITY.
Thanks. -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 03:22, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
This may be a silly question, but doesn't this page violate its own rule, namely Use "sentence case", not "title case"? It should be WP:Manual of style, not WP:Manual of Style. — Amakuru ( talk) 12:33, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds it annoying when an article is plastered with templates such as according to whom?, when?, who?, vague etc. It's ugly, it looks like graffiti, and it suggests that the poster is more interested in criticizing than fixing whatever the problem is. I'm sure they have their place, maybe the editor lacks expertise in the subject matter, but perhaps something can be put into the MOS encouraging people to actually fix whatever the problem is rather than "scribbling" on the article like a teacher marking an essay? MaxBrowne ( talk) 07:21, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
I find in many Wikipedia English entries that 'none' is treated as plural, eg 'none of these are present'. Apologies if I haven't found guidance which does exist on the proper use of 'none' but if it doesn't exist, should it be added to the style guide here? 82.23.253.61 ( talk) 15:15, 15 November 2013 (UTC)Paul. 15 November 2013, 15:15 GMT 82.23.253.61 ( talk) 15:15, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
When a document uses hyphens within page numbers, what is the approved character to use for the hyphen? Does that answer remain the same for a range of page numbers? E.g., when do you em and en dashes for p=A–1 and pp=A–1—A–3? Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 23:24, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
‑
) with a spaced en dash would be clear: A‑1 – A‑3. —
sroc
💬 23:38, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
sec. 5, pp. 1–3.
, but that's not a standard format here (maybe use the chapter=
parameter of the {{
Cite book}}
template?) so I would probably have gone with something like pp. 5-1 – 5-3
if I had needed to use such a cite.
Fat&Happy (
talk) 22:18, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
|at=
parameter, e.g. at = p. 5-7
. If I were inserting this page number, I would also add a <!-- comment --> to the effect that this is page 7 of section 5, not pages 5–7. –
Jonesey95 (
talk) 16:29, 17 November 2013 (UTC)I thought we have guidance, but I cannot find it, on whether or not we should refer to specific people by noun phrases.
For example:
rather than
Is there such guidance or am I imagining? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:12, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 140 | ← | Archive 145 | Archive 146 | Archive 147 | Archive 148 | Archive 149 | Archive 150 |
There is a requested move in progress proposing moving the names of some Royal Navy ship types to lower case titles. If you understand what constitutes a proper noun, and the Wikipedia guidelines on capitalisation, please wade in. The discussion is being mainly conducted at Talk:Motor Gun Boat. Thanks. Shem ( talk) 21:00, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
In an international encyclopedia like Wikipedia, it is inevitable that some article titles will have to use language that is only correct in a subset of the various national varieties of a language and is not correct in all of them. This will force Wikipedia to show case by case a limited amount of favoritism to one national variety or another; and while this is unavoidable and therefore perfectly acceptable, it should be recognized as favoritism.
It is often found that the first line of the introductory paragraph of an article reintroduces the title term in bold; and in cases where national varieties differ on the term for the title subject, I propose that we adopt a standard notation that shows as little further favoritism as possible to the national variety used for the title. I propose that the standard notation be: TermA or TermB.
Some articles have taken to mentioning by name the regions which use a national variety different from that used in the title. I recently edited the article for cesium fluoride to this proposed standard; previously, it had read: caesium fluoride (or cesium fluoride in North America). The problem here is that the article calls out North America by name even while it uses the term "or" to denote the existence of multiple possibilities. This implies heavily that the there are multiple possibilities in North America; and by extension that the title term "caesium fluoride" is correct everywhere, whereas the national variety "cesium fluoride" is rather a mere colloquialism used by North Americans in place of the standard term. In reality most North Americans aware of the existence of cesium are unaware of the existence of any spellings of the word with an 'a;' and the academics who might know otherwise nevertheless use "cesium fluoride" and not the British spelling.
In any case, the topic "cesium fluoride" is not really improved by noting where people use which of its names (thus I support my first proposed standard), but should Wikipedia find that it is helpful to readers to know where people use which name, then I would propose that the standard notation for national variations be: TermA (TermB in RegionB). By leaving off the word "or," there is preserved the sense that in RegionB, TermB is the only correct variation; in most cases, this will be both more neutral and more factually correct. In a situation where a spelling popular in one national variety of a language is truly considered by the people of that national variety to be less correct than the variety used in the title, then inclusion of the subordinating "or" is appropriate; but this was not the case for cesium fluoride, nor I'm sure would it be true for the majority of the variation favoritisms shown by necessity on Wikipedia.
130.132.173.179 ( talk) 05:49, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Look, none of this is about who uses what word where. It is also not about the fact that first titles will use whichever regional variant comes first. It is only about subject introductions that follow the title and which retitle the subject using the names of other regions. It is about whether names other than the title one ought to be labelled by region, and if so, it is about how the labeling should be tailored to the specific conditions encountered. Because quite apart from whether or not anyone thinks it's peculiar that Americans or Brits or Atlanteans spell anything any which way, there is the established certainty that you cannot call anything peculiar in an encyclopedia without breaking neutrality. Neither can you imply that a greater number of regional variants, total speakers, or native speakers makes one term more "standard" or more "universal" than another. It is indeed effectively nationalistic if you are setting any one thing as standard when there are multiple, equally unyielding paradigms reigning in multiple places, no matter how small or insignificant one paradigm may consider another to be, and no matter how solid you may consider your reasoning for establishing one or the other as correct.
Hence, my original suggestions: one, leave off the labeling; or two, stop applying the word "or," or any of its variants, in cases where the paradigm not represented in the title does not itself use the title term. Maybe caesium is the proper spelling even in America because of the standard set by IUPAC; and if so, that specific case's resolution is entirely irrelevant to the general notion that "or" should not be used when it implies the existence of options that don't exist.
Here's a better example of what I mean. I typed in the word "pants" in the search bar. In my country, that means trousers. Accordingly, I was redirected to the page for "trousers" where I was informed of this: "Trousers are an item of clothing worn from the waist to the ankles, covering both legs separately (rather than with cloth extending across both legs as in skirts and dresses). They are also called pants in the United States and some other countries."
I have absolutely nothing at all against the word "trousers," nor against its use as the title of the article; but my lack of antipathy toward the word "trousers" does not change the fact that it is still factually inaccurate to say that trousers are "also" called pants in the US. In the US, trousers are only called pants. It is far more factually accurate to say that "Trousers are called pants in the United States and some other countries," without applying frivolously the word "also" in a way that could be misinterpreted as an establishment of the universal standard-ness of the word "trousers" (Misinterpretation of the word "also" would, of course, require unfamiliarity with the distinctions between British and American culture; which is to say, it would require one to be the only kind of person who would actually need to look up what trousers/pants are in the first place.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.132.173.179 ( talk) 05:25, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
Over at String Quartet No. 14 (Schubert) we have an issue about translation. The article quotes (in its entirety) a translation of a German poem on which the quartet is based. The translation is quite free, and is, in fact, the translation that I have seen around. But an editor, quite justifiably, felt a literal translation would be better, which he did himself.
In my youth, many years ago, I remember reading a guideline about translations, but, for the life of me, I can't find it. Are original translations considered original research? Are they preferable to published translations which take freedoms? Do original translations (if allowed at all) have to be attributed to the translator? Ravpapa ( talk) 04:36, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
There is currently a debate over at Talk:Case Closed#Requested move about whether WP:TIES applies to an article name on a topic that has strong ties to a particular non-English-speaking nation. In this case, a work was released under one English title in Japan, but used a completely different English title when it was released in the US, Canada, and the UK. 24.149.119.20 ( talk) 10:58, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Names and titles says "Quotation marks should be used for the following names and titles:" and included in the list is "Computer and video games (but not other software)". However Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Text formatting#Names and titles says italic type should be used for "Computer and video games (but not other software)". Can anyone explain what seems to be a conflict, or propose how we should fix it? Thanks, SchreiberBike talk 05:22, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
See Joan Pujol Garcia and Eddie Chapman.
In both of these articles small caps are used to denote their codenames. This seems somewhat jarring; is there a reason for it that I am unaware of? pablo 12:52, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
I've started a discussion
here as this is a military history question, it should be amended there, not on the main MOS.
CombatWombat42 (
talk) 18:40, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
WP:TIE
WP:TIES stated "An article on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation[...]" So, what is an "English-speaking nation"? This comes up when I was dealing with the decade-old article name case, as the latest RM relies on this clause, despite the subject-matter is such non-English material as
anime (
Case Closed, if you ask). The OP and the supporters of the RM justified the OP's use of TIE on the following:
Personally I don't accept these justifications; you pick 100 random Wikipedians and more than half (and certainly even more) would say Japan is not an English-speaking nation. The lack of definition of that term, however, opens the door to abuse. Hence, I think it should be stated explicitly that policy is only available for ENGVAR and nothing else, and state what is an "English-speaking nation" in the meaning of this guideline.-- Samuel di Curtisi di Salvadori 19:44, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
If my $0.02 means anything, Japan is most certainly not an "English-speaking nation", no matter how much I feel they have basic concepts down far better than any "native English speaker" I've met so far. Fortunately, names are supposed to be divorced from language squabbles, no matter how hard people try to ignore that.
In regards to Conan, "DETECTIVE CONAN" is most certainly an official translation, even if it's still an alternative title in the face of 名探偵コナン; per things like Attack on Titan, we generally use these "official readings" when referring to the original work. Thing is, article titles (and really, articles themselves) are usually based on localizations specifically made for English-speaking countries above all else. Not much more to it, really. Despatche ( talk) 00:53, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
I have a suggestion concerning collapsible galleries of images which by some may be deemed as very graphic or which retract from the average users ability to read an article, especially medical articles which can be considered rough by a large group of non medical professionals. WP:NOTCENSORED states:
Controversial images should follow the principle of 'least astonishment': we should choose images that respect the conventional expectations of readers for a given topic as much as is possible without sacrificing the quality of the article.
This I interpret as stating that images that convey the subject matter in a way that is comprehensible without disgusting the curious user is the best choice. This in no way means that these images always can explain all aspects of the article. So as not to scare off the regular reader pages such as Anencephaly may profit from a collapsible image gallery, such as:
Disclaimer: Graphic images |
---|
|
This removes risk of censorship while at the same time keeping the possibility for vulnerable users to avoid seeing the images, while being able to take part of the textual information. This may apply to quite a few medical articles.
Common practice at most European and American medical schools is to have ethical discussions and to offer counseling for students before entering difficult subjects such as anatomy and pathology. A naïve user stumbling upon these subjects does not have the support given to many medical and dentist etc. students, and as such may be deterred from Wikipedia after seeing these images. CFCF ( talk) 23:04, 6 November 2013 (UTC)What's with this guideline? It makes no sense when compared to things like logical quotation, and it certainly makes no sense within itself; the exceptions are completely arbitrary, especially because these dashes can be used in many of the same contexts as commas at least. I've even been told that references before punctuation hurts the base line somehow... but it's going to be hurt either way; just take a look at any complicated sentence that has multiple sourced (not "multiple-sourced") statements. Clearly, there is a need for "logical punctuation"? I can't be the only one who thinks this. Despatche ( talk) 05:45, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
".(required sometimes in LQ but forbidden in the normal US punctuation style) and
[1].Since the raised reference link can be longer (e.g.
[note 1].), the ugly baseline blank span before the full stop can be much longer. Peter coxhead ( talk) 11:09, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
like this.[note 1] As opposed to this[note 2][clarification needed.). — sroc 💬 22:20, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
"the punctuation has nothing to do with the reference", consider these examples:
Has this guideline changed recently? I am seeing Yobot moving many citations in front of full stops. Strange that this has not been picked up at WP:FAR. I've been adding citations after punctuation for many years believing this is the correct method. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 17:13, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This RFC concerns policy from WP:MOSNUM ( MOS:DATEFORMAT and MOS:BADDATEFORMAT), MOS:COMMA, and WP:NCPLACE:
My proposal is that instead of being mandated or not being mandated, MOS should be changed to make it optional as to whether a comma should be included after a date or a place: April 14–16, 2011 tornado outbreak or April 14–16, 2011, tornado outbreak; Rochester, New York metropolitan area or Rochester, New York, metropolitan area. If passed, a second part of this proposal would mandate that all pages within a certain Project be the same. This means that the comma would be optional on the "national" standpoint, but one version would be mandated by a discussion from a "local" Project standpoint (all pages within any Project either with the comma or without the comma). This allows members of a project to decide themselves on what to do and prevents ridiculously long site-wide discussions such as this. United States Man ( talk) 19:45, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
This would be an ideal situation if the RfC is passed:
— Preceding unsigned comment added by United States Man ( talk • contribs) 13:15, Today (UTC+11)
"And the practice is particularly clumsy when the day as well as the month is given—e.g.: '... its July 12, 2001 privilege order.'"
*Support, for reasons listed from Garner's above. "National" varieties of English shouldn't matter as much as clarity and readability in the English language Wikipedia.
Reify-tech (
talk) 11:46, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
"This allows members of a project to decide themselves on what to do and prevents ridiculously long site-wide discussions such as this."This argument ignores the likely outcome that "members of a project" will have "ridiculously long" arguments over which form to adopt. Much better to have a standard, Wikipedia-wide policy and avoid factional breakaway style policies. — sroc 💬 08:45, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
My proposal basically keeps current guidance on final comma usage, with three exceptions - 1) when the place name/date is followed by other punctuation (this improves the the current "except at the end of a sentence" exception, which does not take into account place names/dates followed by a colon or closed parentheses, etc.); 2) when the place name/date is used by itself (as in a title or list - this should address the "title vs. text" concern; and 3) when the place name/date is used as an adjective. We then explicitly state that the adjectival use can be unwieldy, and recommend against using it.
This proposal puts the MOS in line with major style guides in recommending avoiding the adjectival construction. It also lets us follow Garner in dropping the second comma when it is not required for syntax. (And for those who say that Garner is only "one" guide, it is one of the four major style guides in the English language, along with Chicago, AP, and Fowler's, and the only one that explicitly addresses whether the adjectival use is proper, so we are perfectly justified in following its advice. Chicago says that the second comma "may be deemed obligatory", but does not offer guidance itself on if it is or isn't actually required.) There are no exceptions in this proposal for Project-by-Project decisions, and no justifications for treating titles inconsistently with article text. I realize that this proposal will not satisfy the die-hard "two commas at all costs" crowd, but I hope that it satisfies the people with the concerns I laid out above. Anyhow, here it is:
Incorrect: | On November 24, 1971 Cooper hijacked a Boeing 727 aircraft that had taken off from Portland, Oregon and was destined for Seattle, Washington. |
Correct: | On November 24, 1971, Cooper hijacked a Boeing 727 aircraft that had taken off from Portland, Oregon, and was destined for Seattle, Washington. |
Unwieldy: | The April 7, 2011 trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the Toledo, Ohio courtroom. |
One better way: | On April 7, 2011, the trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the courtroom in Toledo, Ohio. |
Incorrect: | On November 24, 1971 Cooper hijacked a Boeing 727 aircraft that had taken off from Portland, Oregon and was destined for Seattle, Washington. |
Correct: | On November 24, 1971, Cooper hijacked a Boeing 727 aircraft that had taken off from Portland, Oregon, and was destined for Seattle, Washington. |
Avoid: | The April 7, 2011 trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the Toledo, Ohio courtroom. |
Better alternative: | On April 7, 2011, the trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the courtroom in Toledo, Ohio. |
Also avoid: | The April 7, 2011, trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the Toledo, Ohio courtroom. |
Avoid: | The April 7, 2011, trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the Toledo, Ohio, courtroom. |
What about the following compromise, which acknowledges the dispute without taking sides?
Incorrect: | On November 24, 1971 Cooper hijacked an aircraft that had taken off from Portland, Oregon and was destined for Seattle, Washington. |
Correct: | On November 24, 1971, Cooper hijacked an aircraft that had taken off from Portland, Oregon, and was destined for Seattle, Washington. |
Avoid: | The April 7, 2011 trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the Toledo, Ohio courtroom. |
Avoid: | The April 7, 2011, trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the Toledo, Ohio, courtroom. |
Better alternative: | On April 7, 2011, the trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the courtroom in Toledo, Ohio. |
— sroc 💬 03:46, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
Avoid: | The April 7, 2011[,] trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the Toledo, Ohio[,] courtroom. |
Better alternative: | On April 7, 2011, the trial of John Smith brought a capacity crowd to the courtroom in Toledo, Ohio. |
It's been a couple of days now. What's the procedure? Do we wait it out till the 30 days are up and then start another one, or is there another way? -- Stfg ( talk) 22:04, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
The need for a comma after dates in month–day–year format and geographical references with multiple subordinate levels had been discussed on numerous occasions [1] [2] [3] with the consensus being that the final element in each case is taken to be treated as parenthetical and, hence, requires a comma following (unless at the end of a sentence or perhaps superseded by other punctuation). Are we seriously considering abandoning this, despite what the style guides say?
I could understand if the proposal was to exempt the comma when appearing as an adjective (e.g., a London, England townhouse), although I would not support it and would prefer rephrasing to avoid such cases. However, that is not what has been suggested, and I am concerned that some others may be voting on the misapprehension that the proposal only applies to adjectival cases based on the examples given in the original post. — sroc 💬 15:23, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
I have lodged a request to have this RFC brought to a quick end at WP:ANI#Disruptive RFC. Please note that the request is just to close this, not for any kind of action against any editor. -- Stfg ( talk) 18:07, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
The page currently says:
"Periods (also called "full stops"), question marks, and exclamation marks are terminal punctuation, the only punctuation marks used to end sentences in English."
This is incorrect. In dialog, a sentence may end with a dash to indicate that it was interrupted or broken off short. Granted, this will be rare in encyclopedic prose except perhaps in quotations. DES (talk) 21:29, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
If an article's subject has strong national ties to Britain or the US, the article uses the applicable variety of usage. I was therefore surprised to see, on the home page just now, a British spelling in an article about an American-produced series of movies. However, I then realized that these movies are primarily set in Britain; and in addition the main continuing characters are British, are played by British actors, and were created originally by a British author. So there's a good case for British usage being more appropriate.
What I'm wondering is whether there are any specific, explcit guidelines in the MOS as to how to decide whether, in a case like this, (1) the US tie is stronger, (2) the UK tie is stronger, or (3) neither tie is strong enough to mandate the use of the applicable variety of English and therefore the original author's choice should stand. And if not, whether there should be.
If there is no explicit guideline, I am not proposing one, nor am I proposing that there should not be one. I'm just raising the issue. -- 174.88.132.197 ( talk) 04:38, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
MOS:POSS is irritatingly vague on what to use for possessives of words ending in the "s" sound. The BBC and the Guardian seem to favour "Paris's", and it looks better to me as well as passing the sound test. Are there style guides which recommend the "Paris'" form? I propose slightly tightening our recommendations on examples like this. What do others think? -- John ( talk) 14:39, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
I agree that pronunciation is what should govern the choice but, as John said, there are many different ‘rules’ for that. They usually take addition of the final S to be the default, however, the most commonly recommended exceptions being polysyllables and biblical or classical names. FWIW I would write Paris’s.— Odysseus 147 9 00:40, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- "Euphony is the main concern, with the final choice affected by the number of syllables and the letters starting the next word. Consider the following:
- the hiss's sibilance . . .the catharsis's effects . . ."
- US English is more likely to support such genitive possessives . . . with British English tending to transpose the words and insert of . . .
- Use an apostrophe alone after singular nouns ending in an s or z sound and combined with sake:
- for goodness' sake . . ."
Hi, We're having a discussion at Template talk:MOS-TW#Suggest "names" → "nouns" and we could use the help of editors who are familiar with the following sentence from MOS:IDENTITY.
Thanks. -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 03:22, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
This may be a silly question, but doesn't this page violate its own rule, namely Use "sentence case", not "title case"? It should be WP:Manual of style, not WP:Manual of Style. — Amakuru ( talk) 12:33, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds it annoying when an article is plastered with templates such as according to whom?, when?, who?, vague etc. It's ugly, it looks like graffiti, and it suggests that the poster is more interested in criticizing than fixing whatever the problem is. I'm sure they have their place, maybe the editor lacks expertise in the subject matter, but perhaps something can be put into the MOS encouraging people to actually fix whatever the problem is rather than "scribbling" on the article like a teacher marking an essay? MaxBrowne ( talk) 07:21, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
I find in many Wikipedia English entries that 'none' is treated as plural, eg 'none of these are present'. Apologies if I haven't found guidance which does exist on the proper use of 'none' but if it doesn't exist, should it be added to the style guide here? 82.23.253.61 ( talk) 15:15, 15 November 2013 (UTC)Paul. 15 November 2013, 15:15 GMT 82.23.253.61 ( talk) 15:15, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
When a document uses hyphens within page numbers, what is the approved character to use for the hyphen? Does that answer remain the same for a range of page numbers? E.g., when do you em and en dashes for p=A–1 and pp=A–1—A–3? Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 23:24, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
‑
) with a spaced en dash would be clear: A‑1 – A‑3. —
sroc
💬 23:38, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
sec. 5, pp. 1–3.
, but that's not a standard format here (maybe use the chapter=
parameter of the {{
Cite book}}
template?) so I would probably have gone with something like pp. 5-1 – 5-3
if I had needed to use such a cite.
Fat&Happy (
talk) 22:18, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
|at=
parameter, e.g. at = p. 5-7
. If I were inserting this page number, I would also add a <!-- comment --> to the effect that this is page 7 of section 5, not pages 5–7. –
Jonesey95 (
talk) 16:29, 17 November 2013 (UTC)I thought we have guidance, but I cannot find it, on whether or not we should refer to specific people by noun phrases.
For example:
rather than
Is there such guidance or am I imagining? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:12, 1 November 2013 (UTC)