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There was no point in e-mailing me stuff about IOCS - it just goes into a black hole. But do, please, post the information at Input/Output Control System (IBM). — RHaworth ( talk · contribs) 01:01, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
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{{ helpme}} If I write an article based on personal experience but no longer have copies of the relevant references, is it appropriate to tag parts of the text as a means of soliciting feedback from those having copies of the references? If it is appropriate, which of {{ citation needed}}, {{ cn}}, {{ fact}} or {{ verification needed}} should I use for the purpose.
Note that I'm not talking about cases where the facts are questionable, but simply cases where I need to add unavailable (to me) references for purposes of verifiability. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz ( talk) 21:26, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
{{
helpme}}
Is it legitimate to cite private communications from the author of a program as verification of facts concerning that program?
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz (
talk) 17:11, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Hi there, I have moved the page to Input/Output Control System as I couldn't see anyone rejecting the request. It just needs the categories checked over and any other cleaning up, then you can remove the template up the top. Wongm ( talk) 13:27, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
I've replied, in Wikipedia talk:Requests for feedback#Clarification of leadin for feedback requests. Chzz ► 03:19, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Re. your signature, [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz]]
Would you mind changing that a little; it is confusing when a sig does not include the actual username somewhere; While not an absolute requirement, it is common practice for a signature to resemble to some degree the user name it represents ( WP:SIGEDITORIMPERSONATE).
If you'd rather have a different username, you could request a change of name in WP:CHU. Thanks, Chzz ► 19:48, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Hi
I see that you may be a newcomer to wikipedia.
It is normally best to insert the material, if you know it, be bold rather than tag the article in the way you have. Wiki editors may often respond in a negative way if they perceive "Although I know the info I am asking someone else to do the work" :¬)
thanks Chaosdruid ( talk) 11:00, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
PS I would remove any personal info, especially your name, as this has been known to cause problems for ppl in the past
Why did you remove the references to the IBM 2361 Core Storage device from the article on the IBM System/360? Do you dispute the reality of the device? I have added a section to the talk page of the IBM System/360 page to discuss this edit, please respond there. John Sauter ( talk) 20:21, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
See http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=History_of_the_floppy_disk&action=historysubmit&diff=369454727&oldid=369453094 Please put something on the Talk:History of the floppy disk page. Tom94022 ( talk) 00:02, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
I repeat my request that you name one HDD currently for sale that supports variable block sizes. Until you have some evidence, you really should not change my statement about "Modern HDD" to "Most modern ..." Tom94022 ( talk) 02:31, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that "The last IBM HDD to directly support variable block size was the IBM 3350?" I have provided you evidence that the 3380 and the 3390 supported native CKD. I also speak from personal experience with the 3380 and just had lunch with one of the principal engineers on the 9345 who also was of the opinion that the 9345, 3390 et al were native CKD DASD. Please produce some evidence to support your assertion and then we can discuss this. Tom94022 ( talk) 02:36, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
If bit 3, byte 1 of word 4 is one, this byte contains the modulo factor for a modulo device.
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |separator=
ignored (
help){{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |separator=
ignored (
help), but it lacks mention of the older devices.Since he introduction of System/360 in 1964, nearly all IBM large and intermediate system Direct Access Storage devices have use a CKD track format. ... CKD devices and their storage controls operate synchronously with the system channel. Channel data transfer for each search, read or write command occurs as the target data field passes the read/write head on the device.
When you emulate a CKD device on the 9313, 9332, or 9335, you can use the same commands and parameters that you use when not emulating a CKD device.
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |separator=
ignored (
help)
The forumlae differ but there is a minimum physical block size for each field, for example the 2311 minimum physical data field was 109 bytes (CL=0) and the physical block sized increased byte for byte as the CL increased. In a modulo CKD machine the physical block size increases from a minimum but it is not linear because it is a function of the modulo calculation. A different formula doesn't make it not a CKD machine, nor does in not make it a variable block size machine.
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |separator=
ignored (
help)
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (
talk) 16:26, 8 July 2010 (UTC)fixed-block architecture disk device (FBA disk device)
A disk device that stores data in blocks of fixed size. These blocks are addressed by block number relative to the beginning of the file.
(emphasis added)
Count-Key-Data
Count-Key-Data (CKD) is a DASD data storage architecture in which the data is stored in variable-length records. Each record contains a count field, usually followed by a key field, followed by the actual data of the record. The count field contains the cylinder number, head number, record number, and the length of the data. The key field contains the record’s key (search argument).
Of course a simulated CKD device will include the data from the count, key and data.
IBM's fixed Block Architecture is actually more complicated than what you describe. Blocks are addressed from the beginning of the disk, but there is a channel command called Define Extent that specifies what blocks are relevant to the current operation. It's possible that LOCATE uses relative block addresses, but if so they would be relative to whatever Define Extent had specified, regardless of what any particular file might be using.
If you don't like using FBA as generic, call it sectored: the fact remains that the track layout is fixed blocks rather than variable, and that the fields are package into those blocks: IBM (June 1989).
Storage Subsystem Library IBM 3390 Direct Access Storage Reference Summary (PDF). First Edition. GX26-4577-0. 3390 Mode Each 3390 Mode track is divided into 1720 user data cells (with IBM standard R0) or 1749 user data cells (without IBM standard R0 record). A record can occupy from 20 to 1749 of these cells. The number of cells (Space) occupied by a record is a function of the Key Length (KL) and Data Length (DL) as specified in the count area of the record.
It doesn't matter that IBM uses the nomenclature cell, and it doesn't matter whether the cell sizes are determinned by holes in the disk, low level formatting at the factory or by the formatting of the DSF command INSTALL; what matters is that you wind up with a track layout of fixed sized sectors and that each of the areas of a CKD record is mapped into a string of those sectors. CKD device is not the same as native CKD device.
BTW, those sectors have nothing to do with the sectors refered to in Set Sector.
As a side note, the CKD architecture does not provide for direct addressing of blocks, other than HA and R0; you have to either do a search or chain from a previous I/O that has established orientation. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 13:29, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
"When data is stored on the DASD's included in Group 1 in Table 2, the data records are stored in count-data format or count-kev-data format.
…
Table 2, Group 1: 3330 thru 3380 inclusive of 3375.
Table 2, Group 2: 3310 and 3370
…
When data is stored on the DASD's included in Group 2 in Table 2, the data records are not stored in variable- size blocks with a variable number of gaps (depending on the number of records per block, and blocks per track). Instead the recording surfaces of the disks are preformatted to accept equal-length blocks. Each block ran hold 512 bytes of user data. The maximum capacity or the DASD is not dependent on whether the records have keys, the number of records that can be fit on one track, and so on. In fact, the user need not be aware of the number of bytes per track, tracks per cylinder, or cylindcrs per DASD. Only the maximum number of blocks is of concern to the user."
Marilyn J. Bohl, "Introduction to IBM Direct Access Storage Devices and Information Processing," J. Int. CMG Conference, 1984
You might want to join the dialog at the HDD page see: what Alexdi has done. Tom94022 ( talk) 21:11, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
This help request has been answered. If you need more help, you can , contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse. |
I plan to add explanations of the channel programs for CKD and ECKD to Count Key Data; those explanations will depend on some details of IBM's channel architecture that are currently not present in either Channel I/O or IBM System/360. I've considered three options:
Were I to be writing a complete description of the channel architecture, I would rule out the third option. However, I have reservations to adding what amounts to a stub to one of the eixting articles. I'm soliciting advice as to which route is the most consistent with Wiki policy. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 16:58, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
A tag has been placed on OS/VS2 requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a very short article providing little or no context to the reader. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content. You may wish to consider using a Wizard to help you create articles - see the Article Wizard.
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Coolug (
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Thanks for your corrections and additions to the ORVYL and WYLBUR article. I noticed you added "There are also proprietary versions." I saw something called WYLBUR, Inc., but that was from an article published in CACM back in 1973. A simple Google search didn't turn up anything that looked like proprietary versions. Do you know if proprietary versions are still available? Is there a URL or a citation we could use in the article? Jeff Ogden ( talk) 19:13, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
The section on microcoded S/360's doesn't mention the /65; it - and, presumably, the /67 - were, I think, microprogrammed. Any idea what the details were? (I think it had a 32-bit integer data path; what did it have for floating point? Guy Harris ( talk) 22:40, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 13:11, 25 August 2010 (UTC)For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to listserv@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
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A tag has been placed on OS/VS2 (SVS)/to do, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a redirect to an article talk page, file description page, file talk page, MediaWiki page, MediaWiki talk page, category talk page, portal talk page, template talk page, help talk, user page, user talk or special page from the main/article space.
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{{ adminhelp}} I originally wrote OS/VS2 (SVS) in userspace, and when I realized that the move to mainspace did not automatically move the todo list, I mad a manual move request, inadvertently moving it to OS/VS2 (SVS)/todo instead of Talk:OS/VS2 (SVS)/todo. When I noticed my typo I made a second manual move request.
This morning I saw that Talk:OS/VS2 (SVS)/todo had been marked at midnight for speedy deletion, with an explanation that it was a redirect page. I need help in locating or restoring the actual todo list so that I can move it to Talk:OS/VS2 (SVS)/todo. Thanks. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 15:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for letting me know about this!
What are the other "IBM platforms" available? What source explains all of the platforms available? This can help form a disambiguation page. WhisperToMe ( talk) 16:25, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
That depends on how far back you want to go. In general, IBM has the following current platforms, most of which have Wiki articles; the names may have changed:
You may want to limit the disambiguation to the above. For older stuff, look at
There's a lot of stuff at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm on the older platforms.
Note that IBM sold off its PC business, although it still sells Intel servers under the xSeries (System x) name. There may be some that I've overlooked. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 19:48, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
I know a User talk page belongs to the user but there was a lot of good information on yr page, particularly the CKD drive discussion so may I suggest u archive it rather than delete it. Alternatively, I will copy it to the CKD discussion page Tom94022 ( talk) 05:34, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
You have as much as right as any to post what you like...but please either take a correct stance or lay off me in the Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone debate. Your opinion about the mythological philosopher's stone is so incredibly irrelevant to the argument that I laughed out loud...and I have to thank you for that.
However, I do not thank you for accusing me of making faulty arguments just because I have the courage to tell these people they are wrong. Do you not read the talk pages? They make it clear they know they are wrong. By sound of your remarks, I'd say you have absolutely NO idea what you're on about.
Anything with more than one title, simultaneously known and in the same language, MUST list all titles equally in whatever order the source wishes to list them. Banishing alias titles far down the 1st paragraph is no intelligent move. Clearly you don't realize that. Read the way they handled it in the article about the film version.
Anyway, just a friendly request: lay off if you don't know what you are on about. 76.195.86.50 ( talk) 05:58, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
OK, very well, not going further but I do take exception to your accusation that I'm going ad hominem. I've had this before, being accused of logical fallacy...do you even know what it means? Just curious.... 75.21.150.217 ( talk) 08:18, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
I happen to agree with your recent HDD article edit that data are is proper, but this is an ongoing dispute and unfortunately many style guides now allow data is as a "mass noun" usage. So don't be surprised if yr edit gets reverted and I recommend not getting into an edit war on this subject. Tom94022 ( talk) 21:44, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
The CPU cache page has 5 paragraphs in the history section talking about x86, but the only occurrence of the number "85" on the page is in the number 1048576 in the "Address translation" section. This seems wrong. :-) I suspect you're in a better position than I to fix that (in that you probably know a lot more of the 360/85 history and cache than I do). Guy Harris ( talk) 10:04, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
{{
Adminhelp}}
What is Wikipedia policy on removing a {{
split}} template from an article, e.g.,
Burroughs large systems, with no discussion?
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (
talk) 16:02, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
I responded to your request at WP:COMP/A. I posted on the talk page some suggestions for next steps to improve the article. I also replaced the "unreviewed" banner with some cleanup messages. Please take a look at what I posted, and let me know if there are other ways I can help. Thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia's coverage of computing! -- Pnm ( talk) 19:07, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
In yr Disk Formatting Edityou introduced the concept of "Intermediate-level formatting" a concept that I am not familiar with, does not appear in the art and as you describe it does not appear to be much different than high level formatting. At best this is WP:OR but I really think it is a distinction without substance, but before I revert or tag the change I thought I would give u a chance to explain. Tom94022 ( talk) 21:24, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
BTW, I'm not sure there is or has been any substantive difference between mainframe, server and/or PC - differences in detail yes, but not substantive enough for this article Tom94022 ( talk) 21:27, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Notes
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 11:05, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
Hi: In your spare time :-) you might take a glance at List of file systems and Comparison of file systems; this appears to me to be yet another PC (and minicomputer) oriented article completely oblivious to IBM and other mainframe systems. There is some coverage at MVS#MVS_filesystem. I will defer to your expertise in this matter, but it seems the lack of IBM Access Methods, BDAM, SAM, ISAM and VSAM from these articles is a serious omission. Comment? Tom94022 ( talk) 17:13, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
I have copies of the DWScript manuals along with voluminous amounts of examples of documents written in SCRIPT. Some of the documents were written such that they'd format properly in either DWScript or SCRIPT/VS (so that they could be printed on high speed mainframe printers).
I can license the examples in whatever's needed.
Let me know if you're interested. Joshua ( talk) 14:07, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
I noticed that you had added the second entry pointing to ISPF. At first glance it looked to me like a duplicate entry. Only after I re-read the entry did I notice the slight name difference. It confused me, so it could probably confuse others as well. I combined the two entries, clarifying the apparent duplication as intentional. If you feel it could be better explained, please go ahead.
Thanks, WesT ( talk) 21:41, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
Please see Steps to format a disk. Tom94022 ( talk) 22:50, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi Shmuel, Since you have been heavily involved in maintaining the Assembly_language page, and since I seldom edit wikipedia, I wanted to get your feedback. I am proposing to replace the Assembly Language Example with a program that I wrote. But I don't want to start an edit war etc.. So I have posted the proposed change on the Talk:Assembly_language#Don.27t_like_the_example talk page (it's at the bottom). Please let me know what you think, please put your response with the proposal, that's where I will look. Thanks. OldCodger2 ( talk) 10:12, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Also if you would review my comments about Talk:Assembly_language#I_disagree_with_your_revert_--_Data_Sections, I'd appreciate that as well. IMHO EvilCat seems rather clueless, 'pseudo-ops' has zero relevance. OldCodger2 ( talk) 11:25, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I stumbled upon www.ibm360.info, which says
It was referred to by watermarks added to this FAA manual on the microinstruction format for the Model 7201-02 Computing Element. That guy's site is a wiki he set up for his project:
He's now building an FPGA-based hardware emulator, as per his blog for the project. He has a video of it running. (Another guy reimplemented the Model 30 microengine out of an FPGA; video here, project page here.) Guy Harris ( talk) 03:01, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure what it is about email that encourages people to present overreaching claims to have invented it. There's a guy at MIT who has made a career of it!
I removed the 1962 reference in Email because the cited document (IBM H20-0129-1) did not support the allegation.
Some early email systems required that the author and the recipient both be online at the same time, in common with instant messaging.". Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 16:48, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
You reinstated it, citing a page number, and chastizing me for "deleting references without reading them". I had read the document, and found no reference at all to email. Rather than start an edit war, please tell me what content on page 10 of that document supports your allegation that the IBM 1440 Administrative Terminal System supported email? The closest I can see is:
TERMINAL COMMUNICATIONS Any terminal may transmit its working storage to any other terminal and as many messages as desired to the same terminal. Since the system does not poll, the receiving terminal must request that messages be transmitted to it. The computer attracts the receiving terminal operator's attention by typing the word (MSG) the first time that terminal is used after a message has been directed to it.
This is not email. This is, at best, squirting a file to a terminal. Many older systems had a way to send a message to another logged-in user's terminal. That's different than sending an email to a user (which works whether or not they are logged in, for example, and doesn't need to know what terminal the user is logging in on). Do you have any other text from that page that you think supports your claim of ATS offering email service?
If not, I believe the claim that the IBM 1440 in 1962 had an email system is false.
A separate question is whether the IBM 360 version of ATS included an email function. I did not remove that 1968 entry from Email because I did not have access to the document cited. But if you do have access, and all it offers is the same "send a document to a terminal" function, then please remove that entry from Email too.
PS: I used an IBM 1401 extensively in 1970-71, and used many IBM 370's throughout the 1970s, both at the console and through timesharing at terminals.
Did you have personal experience with ATS? Gnuish ( talk) 02:56, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
You cite SY24-3581-2 on IBM System/370; bitsavers.org has SY24-3581-1, but not -2. I don't see any mention of DAT in the -1 manual, but it does mention the "logical" to "real" address mapping for the DOS compatibility feature - does the -2 version mention DAT (and possibly mention that the associative memory used for "logical" to "real" address mapping was also used as a TLB for DAT)?
(It'd be nice to refer to an on-line version of SY24-3581, but if the references have to be to the -2 version in order to fully describe how DAT could be added with only a microcode change and no hardware/data path changes....) Guy Harris ( talk) 00:12, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
According to The Operational Characteristics of the Processors for the Burroughs B 5000, processor A was a B 5280 and processor B was a B 5281. The same numbers were used for the B5500, according to the Burroughs 5500 Information Processing Systems Reference Manual. Guy Harris ( talk) 19:29, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
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Hi Chatul - hope u are well.
Off the top of yr head do u know if any computer system manufacturer other than IBM (and its clones) that implemented a CKD file system? To the best of my knowledge none did, but my knowledge is limited. Tom94022 ( talk) 00:45, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
U added a section on the IBM 3310 but it was already discussed in the IBM 680 section as are all other IBM small disk drives that wound up on IBM computer systems. I don't think it would be a good idea to add back all the other stuff. It maybe that this is the only OEM product that was re-badged as a mainframe drive (33xx series) in which case it would be OK to leave it, shortened and with a link to the 680. We could also retitle Section 4 to "OEM HDDs (many offered on IBM computing systems)" or some such. I'm watching this page for yr response. Your thoughts? Tom94022 ( talk) 16:42, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Maybe Section 4 is just "OEM and System's HDDs" with appropriate correction to the section lede. Tom94022 ( talk) 16:43, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
My edit only affected an HTML comment, so the page should look the same to the viewer in the version before the edit and the version after the edit. If you try to the page, however, you should see an undamaged version of the "This statement is overly broad..." comment preceding the article's text. Guy Harris ( talk) 20:12, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Hard_disk_drive#An_End_To_The_RAMAC_Price_Duologue. Please help end the duologue on capacity and price of the IBM RAMAC Model 350 disk file. Thanks. Tom94022 ( talk) 21:52, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, I was using http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP2050.html for the memory size (see "Memory cycle time"); the IBM functional characteristics manual are presumably better sources. Guy Harris ( talk) 19:10, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
The UNIVAC EXEC II page says:
so should the History of operating systems page say UNIVAC, or CSC, produced EXEC II? Guy Harris ( talk) 21:09, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
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I think the CKD article needs some graphics to make it understandable so I already posted the track format which shouldn't be an issue. Please take a look at this "architecture" graphic and comment on it before I post it into the article
You can comment at the graphic or here. Thanks Tom94022 ( talk) 16:55, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
To the best of my recollection these two features were introduced with the Block Multiplexer Channel and for DASD with the 2835:
I've looked for RS's without much success. Any recollections and RSs? Tom94022 ( talk) 18:48, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
There are 3880-11 and -13 manuals at Chicago Classic Computing. I plan to referencing them when I update the Caching section of the CKD article. Tom94022 ( talk) 18:19, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
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I would happily agree to mediation but not with the issues as u state them, see: please see "Malformed statement of primary issues" in Talk section Tom94022 ( talk) 01:10, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
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Hi Chatul. I'm an arbitration clerk, which means I was appointed to assist the Arbitration Committee in the administration of arbitration proceedings. Regarding your recently-filed request for an arbitration case, the Committee has requested that the clerks informally ask you to withdraw your request for arbitation, as the case is fundementally a content dispute (which the Committee cannot handle) and would certainly be declined, in order to save everyone the hassle of formally voting to decline the case. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thanks. In my capacity as a Clerk of the Arbitration Committee, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 17:37, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
As of December 2012, {{cite manual}} is an alias for {{cite book}}, so either one works. (Here's a discussion of that.) If you reverted Yobot's change of {{cite manual}} to {{cite book}} in this edit because you wanted the page's editable text to reflect that the book being cited was a manual, you should probably suggest to Yobot's master that it not make that particular change. Guy Harris ( talk) 00:47, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
Regards, nagual design 15:02, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
IBM apparently thought so long before the 3880 shipped
From: Via 'New Attachment Strategy' IBM Meant to Frustrate PCMs February 20, 1978
The quotes are mainly from IBM internal documents mostly in 1971 and 1972 and were made public both in the US Government case and in the Memorex case. Also note the use of A Box within to apply to the 3330 and beyond IBM long before the 3380 even started FWIW, a blivet is a string controller.
Jack Harker pretty much says the same thing in his oral history - he was the SJ Lab Director at the time of the NAS
I hope this puts to bed the endless discussion about both the director and the A-unit Tom94022 ( talk) 08:52, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
You are just wrong about the speed of light not being among the limiting factors in cable lenghts in CKD subsystems. The speed of light part of the latency budget in the gap is twice the distance from the furthest head to the control unit and can as I recall is 275 feet max or well in excess of 0.5 usec. Maybe u didn't know that data cables between the SCU and B-unit could be as long as 75 feet? So if the latencies of the SCU and channel are held constant extending the cables will increase the latency until the subsystem overruns. Anyone who worked on SCUs and B-units knows this but finding RS's is a challenge since they are likely buried deep inside IBM and the PCMs archives. On the other hand, I doubt if you have any source for your assertion that, "cabling limit is not SOL." just your POV.
Perhaps the parenthentical comment should have been {latency issues, including speed of light). In any event it is a small point and I am tired of your insistence on your POV over facts, so I am not going to restate the parenthentical comment. Tom94022 ( talk) 01:09, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
I'll take your word on usage in the manuals. Currently IBM seems to have a split personality - google shows a lot of hits there with both spellings. I always used to think it was "or", until I started noticing a lot of"er". Peter Flass ( talk) 18:15, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Why did you remove this entire section I added?
An alternate to a Record-oriented file is a stream. In a stream file, the filesystem treats files as an unstructured sequence of bytes. A delimiter character ( a reserved bit pattern) must be inserted by the writer application to separate records. The read routine provides as many bytes as requested, not to exceed the size of the file. It is the responsibility of the reading application program to recognize the delimiter, not the file system routines. This approach significantly reduces the size and complexity of the library and reduces the number of utilities required to maintain files. Unfortunately the cpu time required to parse for the record delimiter is significant and the exclusion of the record delimiter pattern from the data is frequently undesirable.
DGerman ( talk) 21:35, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
Basic sequential access method, basic direct access method, basic telecommunications access method, basic partitioned access method, and possibly object access method. Guy Harris ( talk) 17:30, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
The lede to Disk formatting has a note mainly covering legacy IBM mainframe OSes, a subject which is not supported by the body of the article, so it probably shouldn't be in the lede. I'd like to move the note into text in the History section and leave these these exceptions out of the lede. To the best of my knowledge all modern OSes in general do not overwrite sectors during a format unless otherwise instructed. It could be that the legacy OSes still do so but I can't figure out why they would waste so much time since everything today is FBA. You seem to be the advocate of including these exceptions so I thought I would first check with you about both the movement and whether it is still true that the cited IBM legacy OSes still always do overwrite all blocks during format? I'm thinking of a paragraph in the History section along the lines of:
Do you have a reference for the z/OS Unix? Comments? Suggestions? Tom94022 ( talk) 19:11, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
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Hi: Hope this finds u well. Any idea about the origins of CKD? It certainly was included from the beginning of S/360. What we now call the count field was included on the 1301 for the 7000 series and then for the 1410. I think there were key fields in the 1301 but in a separate track index but not the inline CKD as in S/360 and beyond. Any comments or corrections? The penultimate question is whose idea was it? Tom94022 ( talk) 19:54, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
A data track and the data to be written on a track or read from a track are identified by the means of a home address one, a home address two, and as many record addresses as there are recorded areas to be established.
...
Each record area established for a data track is preceeded by a record address. The address consists of six or more characters ...
B Wyatt, Jr., IBM Corp, Western Regional Office, Los Angeles, CA, Characteristics of IBM Files, Disc File Applications, American Data Processing, (c) 1964
Thanks for all the thoughtful comments. I asked Chatul the question because over the last several years I've come to appreciate his deep knowledge of IBM subsystems. The question comes out of a dialog that started at Disk sector where an editor claimed that disk sectors were invented at Bell labs in the early 1960s. I rebutted that and then started to add some history to the article starting with the IBM 350s's fixed sized, no header (ID Field), parity per character sector. Now I am trying to identify early if not first examples of sector header, zonded sectors, CRC and ECC. It is likely IBM was first with many of these changes (other than ZBR) so I'm not too worried about using IBM examples - if there are earlier versions I'm sure someone will correct it. BTW not yet in the article but as near as I can now tell:
You all are invited to edit the Disk sector histoy section. Thanks again. Tom94022 ( talk) 23:51, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
Although the file is divided into 50,000 one-hundred character sectors, each directly addressable by a five-digit number,. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 20:02, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
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Sorry about that change. It must be a weird assembler that doesn't require a blank between the opcode (or macro) and the operands. Some of that old stuff was pretty funky. Peter Flass ( talk) 00:35, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
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https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSLTBW_2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.idau100/iehprog.htm
Is PASSWORD totally obsolete or, in typical IBM fashion, is it still supported but largely unused?
This link includes both the "program maintenance" tag and the function "Maintain data set passwords." Since this is reasonably recent information on zOS utilities, I presume it's still an available option. Peter Flass ( talk) 19:43, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
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"This reference relates to antitrust litigation and is not a good source for technical details."
The year of the first delivery (to a customer?; but does a date is a technical detail?) seems somewhat accurate.
B6500 Status Report (to about 0:46), date: March 1969 (and possibly at 4:20), here on number one system, 6:27 - hardwiring a prototype B6500, 6:45 - system no 1 is a production unit, 8:14
B6500 Status Report, Apr 1970, p. 2 (search for first system).
This also matches the shipment rates (pp. 1-2):
3 per month 1970
Apr 14-16
Mar 11-13
Feb 8-10
2/m (optimistic) 1/m (pessimistic): (12+1)-7=6
Jan 6-7
1969
Dec 4-5
Nov 2-3
around Oct 1-2 around Jun
Your ref to date doesn't have a page number(s) (I assume it was supposed to go next to the last Historical ... ref?). -- MarMi wiki ( talk) 02:56, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
{{
Reflist|refs=}}
, I have no problem with that. If you're referring to something else, please explain.
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (
talk) 23:50, 4 March 2019 (UTC)Notes
References
I am attempting to add
short descriptions to as many articles as possible because wikipedia has made it a goal to add short descriptions to all main space articles. Many articles already have
wikidata entries, including the one in question, and I merely imported the wikidata entry as the short description. Obviously, you didn't agree that it adequately described the topic in 40 characters or less, but instead of reverting it, you should have edited the {{
short description}}
and substituted what you felt was more appropriate. I have gone back and made another attempt at it, this time putting something that I feel better describes the topic. --
rogerd (
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Yes, a certain amount of condensation was done. Peter Flass ( talk) 23:13, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
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OK, I'll agree with you on Rexx, even though it was invented for VM and was the primary scripting language there long before it was ported elsewhere. I disagree on Script, however, that dates back to CP-67 days and seems more tied to the VM family, even though it also runs on the OS/360 family. Peter Flass ( talk) 20:05, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
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How quickly they forget, thanks. Peter Flass ( talk) 20:45, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
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Your edit to Mainframe computer makes the end of the period when there were several manufacturers of mainframes earlier, 1 January 1970 instead of 1 January 1980. But your edit summary indicates the endpoint should be later than 1 January 1980. Jc3s5h ( talk) 20:27, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
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If you're looking for bitsavers references, you could try one of the mirror sites, such as bitsavers.trailing-edge.com. (Hopefully it'll be back up at some point.) Guy Harris ( talk) 05:58, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
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I found enough in the code to show the 5450 used a datastream similar to the 3270, including write/erase write commands, SBA and SF orders. I couldn’t find the address characters, but I would assume that they were similar, especially as the 3270 architecture was later extended to 160x80. Peter Flass ( talk) 14:04, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Have to look around for the code again. There's nothing useful in any one place, but I looked in the OS/360 source for display console support, and unfortunately it seems to be broken up into 100 different bits. I found some bits that relate to the Model 85, but I haven't been able to put it all together. Peter Flass ( talk) 16:38, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
SETBUF EQU X'27' SET BUFFER ADDRESS 73800000 READ EQU X'06' READ 74000000 SOUND EQU X'0B' SOUND ALARM 74200000 INSERT EQU X'0F' INSERT CURSOR 74400000 WRITE EQU X'01' WRITE 74600000 ERASE EQU X'07' ERASE 74800000
So, while apparently the functionality is equivalent to a 3270, the order codes are completely different. Why IBM did this I'll never understand. Still haven't located the buffer address characters. Peter Flass ( talk) 20:07, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Hopefully I or someone will write a SCAT article, hence the redlink. I had never heard of SCAT, so I did a quick Google and came up with Solomon. This really has nothing to do with SQOZE, somI didn’t put anything in the article. I putnthe Solomon reference in the comment just as a poor way to remember the reference. Peter Flass ( talk) 13:33, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
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In the article "Tensor" I had changed "a" to "an" because the rules of English pronunciation (and thereby of written grammar) require "an" when using the indefinite article more usually written "a" when it occurs directly before a word beginning with a vowel. You reverted that to "a". Why? Dratman ( talk) 16:48, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
The referent of the indefinite article was the word following the parentheses. I should have noted that in the change summary. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 16:55, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
That looks good. There's nothing canonical about numbering bits, so why not stick with the what relevant documentation says. Otherwise you're back to the way IBM represented ASCII characters at one time - backwards, as read from the communications line, and useless for anything else. Peter Flass ( talk) 20:23, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
Please see Tfd, where I proposed to merge Template:Lang-he-n into Template:Lang-he. Debresser ( talk) 09:56, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
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Hello! Thanks for Your correction. I create a internal link for zBX section instead of direct link for BladeCenter, that's acceptable solution? And, sorry, can I ask Your help for integration of basic zBX description to BladeCenter page (I think, this a notable adition to article)? ThisIsNotABetter ( talk) 11:54, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
I'm not a native speaker or even all that fluent a speaker of Hebrew, let me get that out of the way. The linguistic info i put on Wikimedia is not stuff I know personally, but rather have already seen on reputable sources or was on the page in the past. Just getting a disclaimer out of the way.
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You recently added better RFC links and a helpful clarification to the lede of the Email address page: "and updated by RFC 5322 and 6854. The term email address in this article refers to addr-spec in RFC 6532, not to address or mailbox; i.e., a raw address without a display-name." However, RFC-6532 doesn't seem refer to addr-spec, and wasn't one of the two you'd linked. I reckon it was likely just a typo for 5322, but since 6532 is also an email RFC, I could very well be wrong. Please sanitycheck my edit! DewiMorgan ( talk) 00:52, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
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I'm not sure what is meant by your addition of "or containing file system" to the High-level formatting section of the Disk formatting article. This seems to contradict the definition of high level format in lede to the section. Please clarify. Tom94022 ( talk) 01:12, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
You've reverted my edit. I can find no reason for that and your edit reason does not explain it to me. The language is, for all practical purposes, identical. GliderMaven ( talk) 16:35, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
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Looking at the BOS manual, it appears BOS was DOS. I've seen some references to it being renamed to DOS at some point. It certainly was a close ancestor of DOS. Peter Flass ( talk) 21:51, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
Your recollections regarding early IBM OS's usage of the term "partition" of would be appreciated here. Personally I don't recall the use of the term in any of the IBM OSes prior to PC-DOS but I admit my knowledge is limited. It is certainly used in the current ones. Tom94022 ( talk) 18:43, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
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I came across a pdf version of Tanenbaum's hardware book. If you're interested, here's a link: http://timriley.net/tanenbaum/structured_computer_organization_6th.pdf . Timhowardriley ( talk) 02:59, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
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Hi. I noticed that you performed the merge into Differential (mathematics) that you had mentioned at WT:Merging#Staging merger through sandbox. This edit seems to contain a clause introduced by XOR'easter. While it is brief, providing attribution is safest. A dummy edit with appropriate edit summary per WP:Copying within Wikipedia#List of authors would be best. I can do it if you prefer. Flatscan ( talk) 05:39, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
fooas it it weren't in the template. I try to use automated tools to replace error prone manual tasks. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 10:19, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for your engaging talk. While exploring your ideas, I came across IBM's 1967 SYSTEM/360 technical reference here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/princOps/A22-6821-7_360PrincOpsDec67.pdf .
Back then, they called the operating system the system program. It says, "The system is designed to operate with a supervisory program that coordinates and executes all I/O instructions, handles exceptional conditions, and supervises scheduling and execution of multiple programs." These are the first level nodes in the operating system tree. It'll be a cool read. Thank you. Timhowardriley ( talk) 20:24, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: |work=
ignored (
help)
Hi, I saw your comment at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style just now
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Thank you for cleaning up my edits. I knew information was missing, but I didn't exactly know how to word it. Timhowardriley ( talk) 18:26, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
You inserted a note in the lede of Channel I/O that refers to the use of cycle stealing. I am familiar with this term in the case of memory access, where one device will perform access while another is busy on another task (cf. 6502 graphics). But the note seems to be suggesting that using stealing removes the need for channel hardware and that is not obvious. Can you clarify? Maury Markowitz ( talk) 13:35, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
The IBM 3031, 3032 and 3033 use a 3158 with only the channel microcode to implement the I/O channels. I don't know the implementation for 3081 or later., -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 03:39, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
References
Cycle-stealing is a form of interrupt in which the component needing access to memory or to the processor takes control for an entire machine cycle.
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In
this discussion you mentioned that "Smart quotes" tend to break things when they get inserted in places where they are invalid.
Can you expand on this? I’m not looking to pick a fight, just to understand. —
HTGS (
talk) 05:58, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
say 'text' /* valid syntax */
say ‘text’ /* invalid syntax */
I noticed that the archiving bot had archived some comments on Talk:Operating system, and the diff showed some comments you made about the article being too oriented towards microprocessors (and, to some extent, minicomputers).
One place that seemed particularly egregious was the "Hardware interrupts" seciton, which was not just microprocessor-oriented but, in some places, PC-compatible oriented. I just sliced it out, as that stuff might belong somewhere on Wikipedia, but not here. (I have a copy of Ubuntu for z/Architecture running on my machine, and not only is it most definitely not handling interrupts caused by applying 5v to an interrupt pin, the emulator on which it's running is running on Ubuntu for x86-64 where it's not handling interrupts caused by applying 5v to an interrupt pin, either, so I really don't consider interrupt pins a relevant detail in an article about operating systems.)
The I/O sections seem to be the main offenders; a lot of it is written based on the "minicomputer model" of I/O, with the CPU doing I/O by banging on device registers and either transferring data directly in the I/O call, transferring data in response to an interrupt, or banging on those device that cause the device to perform a DMA operation. That's the same model that most microprocessor-based systems use, although the device registers might be for a peripheral controller with a lot of its own smarts.
The abstraction presented by channel-based I/O systems is different, although it still has interrupts, so, in some ways, I suspect it's not so different that a high-level description couldn't cover both, such as "the operating system starts an I/O operation that proceeds while the CPU is doing something else; when the data from the operation has been transferred, or an error occurs, an interrupt occurs, and the operating system responds to the interrupt by doing whatever needs to be done at that point". (Well, obviously not something that vague.) It probably also needs to cover I/O that's not initiated by the CPU, such as input from terminals that can occur when there's no read posted, and network packets arriving.
Are there other parts that are overly microprocessor-oriented? Any other comments or suggestions? Guy Harris ( talk) 07:01, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
<ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page). note or 2) more discussion in that section?
Guy Harris (
talk) 09:39, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
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Hi Seymour: The segmenting of tape seems to be missing from Wikipedia. The little I know is that IBM introduced Volume Stacking into its OSes in the 1990s and then Partitions followed as early as 1993 but became "standard" with LTO5 and LTFS in 2010. I think the difference is that with Partitions one physical drive responds as multiple logical drives whereas in the IBM world with Volume Stacking one physical drive has multiple logical volumes. LTFS adds to the complexity. I suspect u know quite a bit more about this than I do so if you are interested I'd like to work with you on an article or the revision to one to cover this issue. If you agree, how do suggest we work this in, new article, section in existing article, ... ? Tom94022 ( talk) 19:12, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
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Hi, I think that you correctly noticed that the original text was not quite right in that an inner can directly call itself (via recursion) and it can be called via function reference. Good find and thanks. ... I have two concerns. First, I'm not sure that closure is the right concept in this context. I think it would be function pointer/reference. Second, I think the info added is too much detail. Scope creep seems common on wikipedia. Related info is added, with the best intentions, but makes the info hard for the reader to consume. It's tiring to assimilate info, so keeping an article on topic, minimizing tangents, makes it easier for the reader to understand that topic. I think this article is already on the edge of going off topic. Much of it is about examples of features in various languages which I think is good to show the breadth of the topic. But, I don't think we should get into every nuance since it makes it hard for a reader to consume. I suggest we keep this section about scope; not recursion or function references or closure. How about we replace what you added with something like: an inner callable is hidden within the outer callable – can only be directly called by code inside the outer callable. Maybe called by name instead of directly called. Stevebroshar ( talk) 14:35, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
FOO PROCEDURE OPTIONS(MAIN);
DEFINE ORDINAL RANK
( LOW VALUEE)-1)
EQUAL,
HIGH
) SIGNED;
...
BEGIN;
COMPARE: PROCEDURE(K1,K2) RETURNS RANK;
...
END;
CALL SORT(FOO,...,COMPARE);
END;
CALL SORT(FOO,...,COMPARE); /* INVALID! */
END;
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There was no point in e-mailing me stuff about IOCS - it just goes into a black hole. But do, please, post the information at Input/Output Control System (IBM). — RHaworth ( talk · contribs) 01:01, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
Hello, Chatul, and
welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for
your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Our
intro page provides helpful information for new users - please check it out! If you need help, visit
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Talk 09:33, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
{{ helpme}} If I write an article based on personal experience but no longer have copies of the relevant references, is it appropriate to tag parts of the text as a means of soliciting feedback from those having copies of the references? If it is appropriate, which of {{ citation needed}}, {{ cn}}, {{ fact}} or {{ verification needed}} should I use for the purpose.
Note that I'm not talking about cases where the facts are questionable, but simply cases where I need to add unavailable (to me) references for purposes of verifiability. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz ( talk) 21:26, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
{{
helpme}}
Is it legitimate to cite private communications from the author of a program as verification of facts concerning that program?
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz (
talk) 17:11, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Hi there, I have moved the page to Input/Output Control System as I couldn't see anyone rejecting the request. It just needs the categories checked over and any other cleaning up, then you can remove the template up the top. Wongm ( talk) 13:27, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
I've replied, in Wikipedia talk:Requests for feedback#Clarification of leadin for feedback requests. Chzz ► 03:19, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Re. your signature, [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz]]
Would you mind changing that a little; it is confusing when a sig does not include the actual username somewhere; While not an absolute requirement, it is common practice for a signature to resemble to some degree the user name it represents ( WP:SIGEDITORIMPERSONATE).
If you'd rather have a different username, you could request a change of name in WP:CHU. Thanks, Chzz ► 19:48, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Hi
I see that you may be a newcomer to wikipedia.
It is normally best to insert the material, if you know it, be bold rather than tag the article in the way you have. Wiki editors may often respond in a negative way if they perceive "Although I know the info I am asking someone else to do the work" :¬)
thanks Chaosdruid ( talk) 11:00, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
PS I would remove any personal info, especially your name, as this has been known to cause problems for ppl in the past
Why did you remove the references to the IBM 2361 Core Storage device from the article on the IBM System/360? Do you dispute the reality of the device? I have added a section to the talk page of the IBM System/360 page to discuss this edit, please respond there. John Sauter ( talk) 20:21, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
See http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=History_of_the_floppy_disk&action=historysubmit&diff=369454727&oldid=369453094 Please put something on the Talk:History of the floppy disk page. Tom94022 ( talk) 00:02, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
I repeat my request that you name one HDD currently for sale that supports variable block sizes. Until you have some evidence, you really should not change my statement about "Modern HDD" to "Most modern ..." Tom94022 ( talk) 02:31, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that "The last IBM HDD to directly support variable block size was the IBM 3350?" I have provided you evidence that the 3380 and the 3390 supported native CKD. I also speak from personal experience with the 3380 and just had lunch with one of the principal engineers on the 9345 who also was of the opinion that the 9345, 3390 et al were native CKD DASD. Please produce some evidence to support your assertion and then we can discuss this. Tom94022 ( talk) 02:36, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
If bit 3, byte 1 of word 4 is one, this byte contains the modulo factor for a modulo device.
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |separator=
ignored (
help){{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |separator=
ignored (
help), but it lacks mention of the older devices.Since he introduction of System/360 in 1964, nearly all IBM large and intermediate system Direct Access Storage devices have use a CKD track format. ... CKD devices and their storage controls operate synchronously with the system channel. Channel data transfer for each search, read or write command occurs as the target data field passes the read/write head on the device.
When you emulate a CKD device on the 9313, 9332, or 9335, you can use the same commands and parameters that you use when not emulating a CKD device.
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |separator=
ignored (
help)
The forumlae differ but there is a minimum physical block size for each field, for example the 2311 minimum physical data field was 109 bytes (CL=0) and the physical block sized increased byte for byte as the CL increased. In a modulo CKD machine the physical block size increases from a minimum but it is not linear because it is a function of the modulo calculation. A different formula doesn't make it not a CKD machine, nor does in not make it a variable block size machine.
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |separator=
ignored (
help)
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (
talk) 16:26, 8 July 2010 (UTC)fixed-block architecture disk device (FBA disk device)
A disk device that stores data in blocks of fixed size. These blocks are addressed by block number relative to the beginning of the file.
(emphasis added)
Count-Key-Data
Count-Key-Data (CKD) is a DASD data storage architecture in which the data is stored in variable-length records. Each record contains a count field, usually followed by a key field, followed by the actual data of the record. The count field contains the cylinder number, head number, record number, and the length of the data. The key field contains the record’s key (search argument).
Of course a simulated CKD device will include the data from the count, key and data.
IBM's fixed Block Architecture is actually more complicated than what you describe. Blocks are addressed from the beginning of the disk, but there is a channel command called Define Extent that specifies what blocks are relevant to the current operation. It's possible that LOCATE uses relative block addresses, but if so they would be relative to whatever Define Extent had specified, regardless of what any particular file might be using.
If you don't like using FBA as generic, call it sectored: the fact remains that the track layout is fixed blocks rather than variable, and that the fields are package into those blocks: IBM (June 1989).
Storage Subsystem Library IBM 3390 Direct Access Storage Reference Summary (PDF). First Edition. GX26-4577-0. 3390 Mode Each 3390 Mode track is divided into 1720 user data cells (with IBM standard R0) or 1749 user data cells (without IBM standard R0 record). A record can occupy from 20 to 1749 of these cells. The number of cells (Space) occupied by a record is a function of the Key Length (KL) and Data Length (DL) as specified in the count area of the record.
It doesn't matter that IBM uses the nomenclature cell, and it doesn't matter whether the cell sizes are determinned by holes in the disk, low level formatting at the factory or by the formatting of the DSF command INSTALL; what matters is that you wind up with a track layout of fixed sized sectors and that each of the areas of a CKD record is mapped into a string of those sectors. CKD device is not the same as native CKD device.
BTW, those sectors have nothing to do with the sectors refered to in Set Sector.
As a side note, the CKD architecture does not provide for direct addressing of blocks, other than HA and R0; you have to either do a search or chain from a previous I/O that has established orientation. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 13:29, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
"When data is stored on the DASD's included in Group 1 in Table 2, the data records are stored in count-data format or count-kev-data format.
…
Table 2, Group 1: 3330 thru 3380 inclusive of 3375.
Table 2, Group 2: 3310 and 3370
…
When data is stored on the DASD's included in Group 2 in Table 2, the data records are not stored in variable- size blocks with a variable number of gaps (depending on the number of records per block, and blocks per track). Instead the recording surfaces of the disks are preformatted to accept equal-length blocks. Each block ran hold 512 bytes of user data. The maximum capacity or the DASD is not dependent on whether the records have keys, the number of records that can be fit on one track, and so on. In fact, the user need not be aware of the number of bytes per track, tracks per cylinder, or cylindcrs per DASD. Only the maximum number of blocks is of concern to the user."
Marilyn J. Bohl, "Introduction to IBM Direct Access Storage Devices and Information Processing," J. Int. CMG Conference, 1984
You might want to join the dialog at the HDD page see: what Alexdi has done. Tom94022 ( talk) 21:11, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
This help request has been answered. If you need more help, you can , contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse. |
I plan to add explanations of the channel programs for CKD and ECKD to Count Key Data; those explanations will depend on some details of IBM's channel architecture that are currently not present in either Channel I/O or IBM System/360. I've considered three options:
Were I to be writing a complete description of the channel architecture, I would rule out the third option. However, I have reservations to adding what amounts to a stub to one of the eixting articles. I'm soliciting advice as to which route is the most consistent with Wiki policy. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 16:58, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
A tag has been placed on OS/VS2 requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a very short article providing little or no context to the reader. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content. You may wish to consider using a Wizard to help you create articles - see the Article Wizard.
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Coolug (
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Thanks for your corrections and additions to the ORVYL and WYLBUR article. I noticed you added "There are also proprietary versions." I saw something called WYLBUR, Inc., but that was from an article published in CACM back in 1973. A simple Google search didn't turn up anything that looked like proprietary versions. Do you know if proprietary versions are still available? Is there a URL or a citation we could use in the article? Jeff Ogden ( talk) 19:13, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
The section on microcoded S/360's doesn't mention the /65; it - and, presumably, the /67 - were, I think, microprogrammed. Any idea what the details were? (I think it had a 32-bit integer data path; what did it have for floating point? Guy Harris ( talk) 22:40, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 13:11, 25 August 2010 (UTC)For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to listserv@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
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{{ adminhelp}} I originally wrote OS/VS2 (SVS) in userspace, and when I realized that the move to mainspace did not automatically move the todo list, I mad a manual move request, inadvertently moving it to OS/VS2 (SVS)/todo instead of Talk:OS/VS2 (SVS)/todo. When I noticed my typo I made a second manual move request.
This morning I saw that Talk:OS/VS2 (SVS)/todo had been marked at midnight for speedy deletion, with an explanation that it was a redirect page. I need help in locating or restoring the actual todo list so that I can move it to Talk:OS/VS2 (SVS)/todo. Thanks. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 15:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for letting me know about this!
What are the other "IBM platforms" available? What source explains all of the platforms available? This can help form a disambiguation page. WhisperToMe ( talk) 16:25, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
That depends on how far back you want to go. In general, IBM has the following current platforms, most of which have Wiki articles; the names may have changed:
You may want to limit the disambiguation to the above. For older stuff, look at
There's a lot of stuff at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm on the older platforms.
Note that IBM sold off its PC business, although it still sells Intel servers under the xSeries (System x) name. There may be some that I've overlooked. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 19:48, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
I know a User talk page belongs to the user but there was a lot of good information on yr page, particularly the CKD drive discussion so may I suggest u archive it rather than delete it. Alternatively, I will copy it to the CKD discussion page Tom94022 ( talk) 05:34, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
You have as much as right as any to post what you like...but please either take a correct stance or lay off me in the Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone debate. Your opinion about the mythological philosopher's stone is so incredibly irrelevant to the argument that I laughed out loud...and I have to thank you for that.
However, I do not thank you for accusing me of making faulty arguments just because I have the courage to tell these people they are wrong. Do you not read the talk pages? They make it clear they know they are wrong. By sound of your remarks, I'd say you have absolutely NO idea what you're on about.
Anything with more than one title, simultaneously known and in the same language, MUST list all titles equally in whatever order the source wishes to list them. Banishing alias titles far down the 1st paragraph is no intelligent move. Clearly you don't realize that. Read the way they handled it in the article about the film version.
Anyway, just a friendly request: lay off if you don't know what you are on about. 76.195.86.50 ( talk) 05:58, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
OK, very well, not going further but I do take exception to your accusation that I'm going ad hominem. I've had this before, being accused of logical fallacy...do you even know what it means? Just curious.... 75.21.150.217 ( talk) 08:18, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
I happen to agree with your recent HDD article edit that data are is proper, but this is an ongoing dispute and unfortunately many style guides now allow data is as a "mass noun" usage. So don't be surprised if yr edit gets reverted and I recommend not getting into an edit war on this subject. Tom94022 ( talk) 21:44, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
The CPU cache page has 5 paragraphs in the history section talking about x86, but the only occurrence of the number "85" on the page is in the number 1048576 in the "Address translation" section. This seems wrong. :-) I suspect you're in a better position than I to fix that (in that you probably know a lot more of the 360/85 history and cache than I do). Guy Harris ( talk) 10:04, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
{{
Adminhelp}}
What is Wikipedia policy on removing a {{
split}} template from an article, e.g.,
Burroughs large systems, with no discussion?
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (
talk) 16:02, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
I responded to your request at WP:COMP/A. I posted on the talk page some suggestions for next steps to improve the article. I also replaced the "unreviewed" banner with some cleanup messages. Please take a look at what I posted, and let me know if there are other ways I can help. Thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia's coverage of computing! -- Pnm ( talk) 19:07, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
In yr Disk Formatting Edityou introduced the concept of "Intermediate-level formatting" a concept that I am not familiar with, does not appear in the art and as you describe it does not appear to be much different than high level formatting. At best this is WP:OR but I really think it is a distinction without substance, but before I revert or tag the change I thought I would give u a chance to explain. Tom94022 ( talk) 21:24, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
BTW, I'm not sure there is or has been any substantive difference between mainframe, server and/or PC - differences in detail yes, but not substantive enough for this article Tom94022 ( talk) 21:27, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Notes
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 11:05, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
Hi: In your spare time :-) you might take a glance at List of file systems and Comparison of file systems; this appears to me to be yet another PC (and minicomputer) oriented article completely oblivious to IBM and other mainframe systems. There is some coverage at MVS#MVS_filesystem. I will defer to your expertise in this matter, but it seems the lack of IBM Access Methods, BDAM, SAM, ISAM and VSAM from these articles is a serious omission. Comment? Tom94022 ( talk) 17:13, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
I have copies of the DWScript manuals along with voluminous amounts of examples of documents written in SCRIPT. Some of the documents were written such that they'd format properly in either DWScript or SCRIPT/VS (so that they could be printed on high speed mainframe printers).
I can license the examples in whatever's needed.
Let me know if you're interested. Joshua ( talk) 14:07, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
I noticed that you had added the second entry pointing to ISPF. At first glance it looked to me like a duplicate entry. Only after I re-read the entry did I notice the slight name difference. It confused me, so it could probably confuse others as well. I combined the two entries, clarifying the apparent duplication as intentional. If you feel it could be better explained, please go ahead.
Thanks, WesT ( talk) 21:41, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
Please see Steps to format a disk. Tom94022 ( talk) 22:50, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi Shmuel, Since you have been heavily involved in maintaining the Assembly_language page, and since I seldom edit wikipedia, I wanted to get your feedback. I am proposing to replace the Assembly Language Example with a program that I wrote. But I don't want to start an edit war etc.. So I have posted the proposed change on the Talk:Assembly_language#Don.27t_like_the_example talk page (it's at the bottom). Please let me know what you think, please put your response with the proposal, that's where I will look. Thanks. OldCodger2 ( talk) 10:12, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Also if you would review my comments about Talk:Assembly_language#I_disagree_with_your_revert_--_Data_Sections, I'd appreciate that as well. IMHO EvilCat seems rather clueless, 'pseudo-ops' has zero relevance. OldCodger2 ( talk) 11:25, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I stumbled upon www.ibm360.info, which says
It was referred to by watermarks added to this FAA manual on the microinstruction format for the Model 7201-02 Computing Element. That guy's site is a wiki he set up for his project:
He's now building an FPGA-based hardware emulator, as per his blog for the project. He has a video of it running. (Another guy reimplemented the Model 30 microengine out of an FPGA; video here, project page here.) Guy Harris ( talk) 03:01, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure what it is about email that encourages people to present overreaching claims to have invented it. There's a guy at MIT who has made a career of it!
I removed the 1962 reference in Email because the cited document (IBM H20-0129-1) did not support the allegation.
Some early email systems required that the author and the recipient both be online at the same time, in common with instant messaging.". Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 16:48, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
You reinstated it, citing a page number, and chastizing me for "deleting references without reading them". I had read the document, and found no reference at all to email. Rather than start an edit war, please tell me what content on page 10 of that document supports your allegation that the IBM 1440 Administrative Terminal System supported email? The closest I can see is:
TERMINAL COMMUNICATIONS Any terminal may transmit its working storage to any other terminal and as many messages as desired to the same terminal. Since the system does not poll, the receiving terminal must request that messages be transmitted to it. The computer attracts the receiving terminal operator's attention by typing the word (MSG) the first time that terminal is used after a message has been directed to it.
This is not email. This is, at best, squirting a file to a terminal. Many older systems had a way to send a message to another logged-in user's terminal. That's different than sending an email to a user (which works whether or not they are logged in, for example, and doesn't need to know what terminal the user is logging in on). Do you have any other text from that page that you think supports your claim of ATS offering email service?
If not, I believe the claim that the IBM 1440 in 1962 had an email system is false.
A separate question is whether the IBM 360 version of ATS included an email function. I did not remove that 1968 entry from Email because I did not have access to the document cited. But if you do have access, and all it offers is the same "send a document to a terminal" function, then please remove that entry from Email too.
PS: I used an IBM 1401 extensively in 1970-71, and used many IBM 370's throughout the 1970s, both at the console and through timesharing at terminals.
Did you have personal experience with ATS? Gnuish ( talk) 02:56, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
You cite SY24-3581-2 on IBM System/370; bitsavers.org has SY24-3581-1, but not -2. I don't see any mention of DAT in the -1 manual, but it does mention the "logical" to "real" address mapping for the DOS compatibility feature - does the -2 version mention DAT (and possibly mention that the associative memory used for "logical" to "real" address mapping was also used as a TLB for DAT)?
(It'd be nice to refer to an on-line version of SY24-3581, but if the references have to be to the -2 version in order to fully describe how DAT could be added with only a microcode change and no hardware/data path changes....) Guy Harris ( talk) 00:12, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
According to The Operational Characteristics of the Processors for the Burroughs B 5000, processor A was a B 5280 and processor B was a B 5281. The same numbers were used for the B5500, according to the Burroughs 5500 Information Processing Systems Reference Manual. Guy Harris ( talk) 19:29, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
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Hi Chatul - hope u are well.
Off the top of yr head do u know if any computer system manufacturer other than IBM (and its clones) that implemented a CKD file system? To the best of my knowledge none did, but my knowledge is limited. Tom94022 ( talk) 00:45, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
U added a section on the IBM 3310 but it was already discussed in the IBM 680 section as are all other IBM small disk drives that wound up on IBM computer systems. I don't think it would be a good idea to add back all the other stuff. It maybe that this is the only OEM product that was re-badged as a mainframe drive (33xx series) in which case it would be OK to leave it, shortened and with a link to the 680. We could also retitle Section 4 to "OEM HDDs (many offered on IBM computing systems)" or some such. I'm watching this page for yr response. Your thoughts? Tom94022 ( talk) 16:42, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Maybe Section 4 is just "OEM and System's HDDs" with appropriate correction to the section lede. Tom94022 ( talk) 16:43, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
My edit only affected an HTML comment, so the page should look the same to the viewer in the version before the edit and the version after the edit. If you try to the page, however, you should see an undamaged version of the "This statement is overly broad..." comment preceding the article's text. Guy Harris ( talk) 20:12, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Hard_disk_drive#An_End_To_The_RAMAC_Price_Duologue. Please help end the duologue on capacity and price of the IBM RAMAC Model 350 disk file. Thanks. Tom94022 ( talk) 21:52, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, I was using http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP2050.html for the memory size (see "Memory cycle time"); the IBM functional characteristics manual are presumably better sources. Guy Harris ( talk) 19:10, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
The UNIVAC EXEC II page says:
so should the History of operating systems page say UNIVAC, or CSC, produced EXEC II? Guy Harris ( talk) 21:09, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
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I think the CKD article needs some graphics to make it understandable so I already posted the track format which shouldn't be an issue. Please take a look at this "architecture" graphic and comment on it before I post it into the article
You can comment at the graphic or here. Thanks Tom94022 ( talk) 16:55, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
To the best of my recollection these two features were introduced with the Block Multiplexer Channel and for DASD with the 2835:
I've looked for RS's without much success. Any recollections and RSs? Tom94022 ( talk) 18:48, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
There are 3880-11 and -13 manuals at Chicago Classic Computing. I plan to referencing them when I update the Caching section of the CKD article. Tom94022 ( talk) 18:19, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
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I would happily agree to mediation but not with the issues as u state them, see: please see "Malformed statement of primary issues" in Talk section Tom94022 ( talk) 01:10, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
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As of December 2012, {{cite manual}} is an alias for {{cite book}}, so either one works. (Here's a discussion of that.) If you reverted Yobot's change of {{cite manual}} to {{cite book}} in this edit because you wanted the page's editable text to reflect that the book being cited was a manual, you should probably suggest to Yobot's master that it not make that particular change. Guy Harris ( talk) 00:47, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
Regards, nagual design 15:02, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
IBM apparently thought so long before the 3880 shipped
From: Via 'New Attachment Strategy' IBM Meant to Frustrate PCMs February 20, 1978
The quotes are mainly from IBM internal documents mostly in 1971 and 1972 and were made public both in the US Government case and in the Memorex case. Also note the use of A Box within to apply to the 3330 and beyond IBM long before the 3380 even started FWIW, a blivet is a string controller.
Jack Harker pretty much says the same thing in his oral history - he was the SJ Lab Director at the time of the NAS
I hope this puts to bed the endless discussion about both the director and the A-unit Tom94022 ( talk) 08:52, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
You are just wrong about the speed of light not being among the limiting factors in cable lenghts in CKD subsystems. The speed of light part of the latency budget in the gap is twice the distance from the furthest head to the control unit and can as I recall is 275 feet max or well in excess of 0.5 usec. Maybe u didn't know that data cables between the SCU and B-unit could be as long as 75 feet? So if the latencies of the SCU and channel are held constant extending the cables will increase the latency until the subsystem overruns. Anyone who worked on SCUs and B-units knows this but finding RS's is a challenge since they are likely buried deep inside IBM and the PCMs archives. On the other hand, I doubt if you have any source for your assertion that, "cabling limit is not SOL." just your POV.
Perhaps the parenthentical comment should have been {latency issues, including speed of light). In any event it is a small point and I am tired of your insistence on your POV over facts, so I am not going to restate the parenthentical comment. Tom94022 ( talk) 01:09, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
I'll take your word on usage in the manuals. Currently IBM seems to have a split personality - google shows a lot of hits there with both spellings. I always used to think it was "or", until I started noticing a lot of"er". Peter Flass ( talk) 18:15, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Why did you remove this entire section I added?
An alternate to a Record-oriented file is a stream. In a stream file, the filesystem treats files as an unstructured sequence of bytes. A delimiter character ( a reserved bit pattern) must be inserted by the writer application to separate records. The read routine provides as many bytes as requested, not to exceed the size of the file. It is the responsibility of the reading application program to recognize the delimiter, not the file system routines. This approach significantly reduces the size and complexity of the library and reduces the number of utilities required to maintain files. Unfortunately the cpu time required to parse for the record delimiter is significant and the exclusion of the record delimiter pattern from the data is frequently undesirable.
DGerman ( talk) 21:35, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
Basic sequential access method, basic direct access method, basic telecommunications access method, basic partitioned access method, and possibly object access method. Guy Harris ( talk) 17:30, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
The lede to Disk formatting has a note mainly covering legacy IBM mainframe OSes, a subject which is not supported by the body of the article, so it probably shouldn't be in the lede. I'd like to move the note into text in the History section and leave these these exceptions out of the lede. To the best of my knowledge all modern OSes in general do not overwrite sectors during a format unless otherwise instructed. It could be that the legacy OSes still do so but I can't figure out why they would waste so much time since everything today is FBA. You seem to be the advocate of including these exceptions so I thought I would first check with you about both the movement and whether it is still true that the cited IBM legacy OSes still always do overwrite all blocks during format? I'm thinking of a paragraph in the History section along the lines of:
Do you have a reference for the z/OS Unix? Comments? Suggestions? Tom94022 ( talk) 19:11, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
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Hi: Hope this finds u well. Any idea about the origins of CKD? It certainly was included from the beginning of S/360. What we now call the count field was included on the 1301 for the 7000 series and then for the 1410. I think there were key fields in the 1301 but in a separate track index but not the inline CKD as in S/360 and beyond. Any comments or corrections? The penultimate question is whose idea was it? Tom94022 ( talk) 19:54, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
A data track and the data to be written on a track or read from a track are identified by the means of a home address one, a home address two, and as many record addresses as there are recorded areas to be established.
...
Each record area established for a data track is preceeded by a record address. The address consists of six or more characters ...
B Wyatt, Jr., IBM Corp, Western Regional Office, Los Angeles, CA, Characteristics of IBM Files, Disc File Applications, American Data Processing, (c) 1964
Thanks for all the thoughtful comments. I asked Chatul the question because over the last several years I've come to appreciate his deep knowledge of IBM subsystems. The question comes out of a dialog that started at Disk sector where an editor claimed that disk sectors were invented at Bell labs in the early 1960s. I rebutted that and then started to add some history to the article starting with the IBM 350s's fixed sized, no header (ID Field), parity per character sector. Now I am trying to identify early if not first examples of sector header, zonded sectors, CRC and ECC. It is likely IBM was first with many of these changes (other than ZBR) so I'm not too worried about using IBM examples - if there are earlier versions I'm sure someone will correct it. BTW not yet in the article but as near as I can now tell:
You all are invited to edit the Disk sector histoy section. Thanks again. Tom94022 ( talk) 23:51, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
Although the file is divided into 50,000 one-hundred character sectors, each directly addressable by a five-digit number,. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 20:02, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
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Sorry about that change. It must be a weird assembler that doesn't require a blank between the opcode (or macro) and the operands. Some of that old stuff was pretty funky. Peter Flass ( talk) 00:35, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
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https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSLTBW_2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.idau100/iehprog.htm
Is PASSWORD totally obsolete or, in typical IBM fashion, is it still supported but largely unused?
This link includes both the "program maintenance" tag and the function "Maintain data set passwords." Since this is reasonably recent information on zOS utilities, I presume it's still an available option. Peter Flass ( talk) 19:43, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
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"This reference relates to antitrust litigation and is not a good source for technical details."
The year of the first delivery (to a customer?; but does a date is a technical detail?) seems somewhat accurate.
B6500 Status Report (to about 0:46), date: March 1969 (and possibly at 4:20), here on number one system, 6:27 - hardwiring a prototype B6500, 6:45 - system no 1 is a production unit, 8:14
B6500 Status Report, Apr 1970, p. 2 (search for first system).
This also matches the shipment rates (pp. 1-2):
3 per month 1970
Apr 14-16
Mar 11-13
Feb 8-10
2/m (optimistic) 1/m (pessimistic): (12+1)-7=6
Jan 6-7
1969
Dec 4-5
Nov 2-3
around Oct 1-2 around Jun
Your ref to date doesn't have a page number(s) (I assume it was supposed to go next to the last Historical ... ref?). -- MarMi wiki ( talk) 02:56, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
{{
Reflist|refs=}}
, I have no problem with that. If you're referring to something else, please explain.
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (
talk) 23:50, 4 March 2019 (UTC)Notes
References
I am attempting to add
short descriptions to as many articles as possible because wikipedia has made it a goal to add short descriptions to all main space articles. Many articles already have
wikidata entries, including the one in question, and I merely imported the wikidata entry as the short description. Obviously, you didn't agree that it adequately described the topic in 40 characters or less, but instead of reverting it, you should have edited the {{
short description}}
and substituted what you felt was more appropriate. I have gone back and made another attempt at it, this time putting something that I feel better describes the topic. --
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Yes, a certain amount of condensation was done. Peter Flass ( talk) 23:13, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
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OK, I'll agree with you on Rexx, even though it was invented for VM and was the primary scripting language there long before it was ported elsewhere. I disagree on Script, however, that dates back to CP-67 days and seems more tied to the VM family, even though it also runs on the OS/360 family. Peter Flass ( talk) 20:05, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
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How quickly they forget, thanks. Peter Flass ( talk) 20:45, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
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Your edit to Mainframe computer makes the end of the period when there were several manufacturers of mainframes earlier, 1 January 1970 instead of 1 January 1980. But your edit summary indicates the endpoint should be later than 1 January 1980. Jc3s5h ( talk) 20:27, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
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I found enough in the code to show the 5450 used a datastream similar to the 3270, including write/erase write commands, SBA and SF orders. I couldn’t find the address characters, but I would assume that they were similar, especially as the 3270 architecture was later extended to 160x80. Peter Flass ( talk) 14:04, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Have to look around for the code again. There's nothing useful in any one place, but I looked in the OS/360 source for display console support, and unfortunately it seems to be broken up into 100 different bits. I found some bits that relate to the Model 85, but I haven't been able to put it all together. Peter Flass ( talk) 16:38, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
SETBUF EQU X'27' SET BUFFER ADDRESS 73800000 READ EQU X'06' READ 74000000 SOUND EQU X'0B' SOUND ALARM 74200000 INSERT EQU X'0F' INSERT CURSOR 74400000 WRITE EQU X'01' WRITE 74600000 ERASE EQU X'07' ERASE 74800000
So, while apparently the functionality is equivalent to a 3270, the order codes are completely different. Why IBM did this I'll never understand. Still haven't located the buffer address characters. Peter Flass ( talk) 20:07, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Hopefully I or someone will write a SCAT article, hence the redlink. I had never heard of SCAT, so I did a quick Google and came up with Solomon. This really has nothing to do with SQOZE, somI didn’t put anything in the article. I putnthe Solomon reference in the comment just as a poor way to remember the reference. Peter Flass ( talk) 13:33, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
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In the article "Tensor" I had changed "a" to "an" because the rules of English pronunciation (and thereby of written grammar) require "an" when using the indefinite article more usually written "a" when it occurs directly before a word beginning with a vowel. You reverted that to "a". Why? Dratman ( talk) 16:48, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
The referent of the indefinite article was the word following the parentheses. I should have noted that in the change summary. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 16:55, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
That looks good. There's nothing canonical about numbering bits, so why not stick with the what relevant documentation says. Otherwise you're back to the way IBM represented ASCII characters at one time - backwards, as read from the communications line, and useless for anything else. Peter Flass ( talk) 20:23, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
Please see Tfd, where I proposed to merge Template:Lang-he-n into Template:Lang-he. Debresser ( talk) 09:56, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
Hello, and thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. This is just a note to let you know that I've moved the draft that you were working on to Draft:Track (moving medium), from its old location at User:Chatul/sandbox/Track (moving medium). This has been done because the Draft namespace is the preferred location for Articles for Creation submissions. Please feel free to continue to work on it there. If you have any questions about this, you are welcome to ask me on my talk page. Thank you. SK2242 ( talk) 17:38, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Hello! Thanks for Your correction. I create a internal link for zBX section instead of direct link for BladeCenter, that's acceptable solution? And, sorry, can I ask Your help for integration of basic zBX description to BladeCenter page (I think, this a notable adition to article)? ThisIsNotABetter ( talk) 11:54, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
I'm not a native speaker or even all that fluent a speaker of Hebrew, let me get that out of the way. The linguistic info i put on Wikimedia is not stuff I know personally, but rather have already seen on reputable sources or was on the page in the past. Just getting a disclaimer out of the way.
That out of the way: are the non-prefixed infinitives still used in Modern Hebrew? Every single source I've found has it as a Biblical Hebrew feature. But, my main desires with regards to changing the Modern Hebrew Verbs article is to change the table formats/ romanization; not to speak over anyone more familiar with Hebrew grammar. Starbeam2 ( talk) 23:57, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
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Did you ever find an answer to this question? If not WP:VPT may be the place to ask.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 22:37, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
You recently added better RFC links and a helpful clarification to the lede of the Email address page: "and updated by RFC 5322 and 6854. The term email address in this article refers to addr-spec in RFC 6532, not to address or mailbox; i.e., a raw address without a display-name." However, RFC-6532 doesn't seem refer to addr-spec, and wasn't one of the two you'd linked. I reckon it was likely just a typo for 5322, but since 6532 is also an email RFC, I could very well be wrong. Please sanitycheck my edit! DewiMorgan ( talk) 00:52, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
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I'm not sure what is meant by your addition of "or containing file system" to the High-level formatting section of the Disk formatting article. This seems to contradict the definition of high level format in lede to the section. Please clarify. Tom94022 ( talk) 01:12, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
You've reverted my edit. I can find no reason for that and your edit reason does not explain it to me. The language is, for all practical purposes, identical. GliderMaven ( talk) 16:35, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
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Looking at the BOS manual, it appears BOS was DOS. I've seen some references to it being renamed to DOS at some point. It certainly was a close ancestor of DOS. Peter Flass ( talk) 21:51, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
Your recollections regarding early IBM OS's usage of the term "partition" of would be appreciated here. Personally I don't recall the use of the term in any of the IBM OSes prior to PC-DOS but I admit my knowledge is limited. It is certainly used in the current ones. Tom94022 ( talk) 18:43, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
The Minor barnstar | |
For having a signature that actually contains your username, while still containing a unique name. Makes it way less annoying when having to ping you (if I ever have to). ― Blaze Wolf TalkBlaze Wolf#6545 17:57, 28 January 2022 (UTC) |
I came across a pdf version of Tanenbaum's hardware book. If you're interested, here's a link: http://timriley.net/tanenbaum/structured_computer_organization_6th.pdf . Timhowardriley ( talk) 02:59, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
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Hi. I noticed that you performed the merge into Differential (mathematics) that you had mentioned at WT:Merging#Staging merger through sandbox. This edit seems to contain a clause introduced by XOR'easter. While it is brief, providing attribution is safest. A dummy edit with appropriate edit summary per WP:Copying within Wikipedia#List of authors would be best. I can do it if you prefer. Flatscan ( talk) 05:39, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
fooas it it weren't in the template. I try to use automated tools to replace error prone manual tasks. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 10:19, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for your engaging talk. While exploring your ideas, I came across IBM's 1967 SYSTEM/360 technical reference here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/princOps/A22-6821-7_360PrincOpsDec67.pdf .
Back then, they called the operating system the system program. It says, "The system is designed to operate with a supervisory program that coordinates and executes all I/O instructions, handles exceptional conditions, and supervises scheduling and execution of multiple programs." These are the first level nodes in the operating system tree. It'll be a cool read. Thank you. Timhowardriley ( talk) 20:24, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: |work=
ignored (
help)
Hi, I saw your comment at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style just now
[15] and thought I should let you know that Dumuzid was being sarcastic (and actually agreeing with you on the substance of the issue). I also see on your user page that you encourage people to inform you when you miss something, so I hope you don't mind this message. I know that not everyone picks up on sarcasm in the same way. You might want to self-revert that comment, though of course it's not a big deal. Best wishes,
Generalrelative (
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Thank you for cleaning up my edits. I knew information was missing, but I didn't exactly know how to word it. Timhowardriley ( talk) 18:26, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
You inserted a note in the lede of Channel I/O that refers to the use of cycle stealing. I am familiar with this term in the case of memory access, where one device will perform access while another is busy on another task (cf. 6502 graphics). But the note seems to be suggesting that using stealing removes the need for channel hardware and that is not obvious. Can you clarify? Maury Markowitz ( talk) 13:35, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
The IBM 3031, 3032 and 3033 use a 3158 with only the channel microcode to implement the I/O channels. I don't know the implementation for 3081 or later., -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 03:39, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
References
Cycle-stealing is a form of interrupt in which the component needing access to memory or to the processor takes control for an entire machine cycle.
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In
this discussion you mentioned that "Smart quotes" tend to break things when they get inserted in places where they are invalid.
Can you expand on this? I’m not looking to pick a fight, just to understand. —
HTGS (
talk) 05:58, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
say 'text' /* valid syntax */
say ‘text’ /* invalid syntax */
I noticed that the archiving bot had archived some comments on Talk:Operating system, and the diff showed some comments you made about the article being too oriented towards microprocessors (and, to some extent, minicomputers).
One place that seemed particularly egregious was the "Hardware interrupts" seciton, which was not just microprocessor-oriented but, in some places, PC-compatible oriented. I just sliced it out, as that stuff might belong somewhere on Wikipedia, but not here. (I have a copy of Ubuntu for z/Architecture running on my machine, and not only is it most definitely not handling interrupts caused by applying 5v to an interrupt pin, the emulator on which it's running is running on Ubuntu for x86-64 where it's not handling interrupts caused by applying 5v to an interrupt pin, either, so I really don't consider interrupt pins a relevant detail in an article about operating systems.)
The I/O sections seem to be the main offenders; a lot of it is written based on the "minicomputer model" of I/O, with the CPU doing I/O by banging on device registers and either transferring data directly in the I/O call, transferring data in response to an interrupt, or banging on those device that cause the device to perform a DMA operation. That's the same model that most microprocessor-based systems use, although the device registers might be for a peripheral controller with a lot of its own smarts.
The abstraction presented by channel-based I/O systems is different, although it still has interrupts, so, in some ways, I suspect it's not so different that a high-level description couldn't cover both, such as "the operating system starts an I/O operation that proceeds while the CPU is doing something else; when the data from the operation has been transferred, or an error occurs, an interrupt occurs, and the operating system responds to the interrupt by doing whatever needs to be done at that point". (Well, obviously not something that vague.) It probably also needs to cover I/O that's not initiated by the CPU, such as input from terminals that can occur when there's no read posted, and network packets arriving.
Are there other parts that are overly microprocessor-oriented? Any other comments or suggestions? Guy Harris ( talk) 07:01, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
<ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page). note or 2) more discussion in that section?
Guy Harris (
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I want to give you a less flippant response regarding your comment about tachyons. Both of your comments ignore the principle that the person asserting the existence of a hypothetical object has the burden of proof (philosophy). In other words, I am allowed to presume that tachyons do not exist since you have not provided evidence that they do exist. JRSpriggs ( talk) 20:45, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
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Hi Seymour: The segmenting of tape seems to be missing from Wikipedia. The little I know is that IBM introduced Volume Stacking into its OSes in the 1990s and then Partitions followed as early as 1993 but became "standard" with LTO5 and LTFS in 2010. I think the difference is that with Partitions one physical drive responds as multiple logical drives whereas in the IBM world with Volume Stacking one physical drive has multiple logical volumes. LTFS adds to the complexity. I suspect u know quite a bit more about this than I do so if you are interested I'd like to work with you on an article or the revision to one to cover this issue. If you agree, how do suggest we work this in, new article, section in existing article, ... ? Tom94022 ( talk) 19:12, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
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Are you suggesting that wiki displays jewish dates in roman numerals? Riskit 4 a biskit ( talk) 18:55, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
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Hi, I think that you correctly noticed that the original text was not quite right in that an inner can directly call itself (via recursion) and it can be called via function reference. Good find and thanks. ... I have two concerns. First, I'm not sure that closure is the right concept in this context. I think it would be function pointer/reference. Second, I think the info added is too much detail. Scope creep seems common on wikipedia. Related info is added, with the best intentions, but makes the info hard for the reader to consume. It's tiring to assimilate info, so keeping an article on topic, minimizing tangents, makes it easier for the reader to understand that topic. I think this article is already on the edge of going off topic. Much of it is about examples of features in various languages which I think is good to show the breadth of the topic. But, I don't think we should get into every nuance since it makes it hard for a reader to consume. I suggest we keep this section about scope; not recursion or function references or closure. How about we replace what you added with something like: an inner callable is hidden within the outer callable – can only be directly called by code inside the outer callable. Maybe called by name instead of directly called. Stevebroshar ( talk) 14:35, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
FOO PROCEDURE OPTIONS(MAIN);
DEFINE ORDINAL RANK
( LOW VALUEE)-1)
EQUAL,
HIGH
) SIGNED;
...
BEGIN;
COMPARE: PROCEDURE(K1,K2) RETURNS RANK;
...
END;
CALL SORT(FOO,...,COMPARE);
END;
CALL SORT(FOO,...,COMPARE); /* INVALID! */
END;
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