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Just got this on my talk page:
Thoughts? Is an assertion that an album will be released in late 2009 the same as an assertion of current notability? And should we check with an admin who declined a speedy before voting for speedy at an AfD? - Dank ( push to talk) 14:23, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps not but maybe the people who brought us per-page edit notices can add a similar "delete notice" feature to reduce the most serious mistakes. — CharlotteWebb 15:33, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
I propose adding somewhere, probably at WP:CSD, a recommendation to add the {{notenglish|[correct language]}} template to any foreign-language article tagged for CSD, for languages that Google handles well. (You'll know if it's one of the others, Google will warn you.) There are pages that will attempt to figure out the language and translate, so it's not hard to do. CSD is a community process, and when only a few people can read the article, and the rest are either skipping the article or using different translation engines, then people are looking at different texts, and may come to different conclusions. - Dank ( push to talk) 16:52, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Total licensing; it's an argument about what G11 means. - Dank ( push to talk) 18:03, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
At least one editor ( Aleenf1 ( talk · contribs)) is periodically tagging talk pages without corresponding articles for G8, thus increasing the backlog in CAT:CSD significantly. I am wondering, what others think about this behvaior. Is it a good thing because it identifies pages in need of deletion or a bad thing because it floods CAT:CSD with pages where immediate deletion is not needed, thus distracting admins from pages that do? Regards So Why 12:07, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
In case someone edits it, the current version is "Weihenstephaner Hefe Weissbier German hefe weissbier Soft malt, with hints of carnation, coriander and banana. The Weihenstephaner Hefe Weissbier is brewed at the Bayerische Staatsbrauerei Weihenstephan in Freising, Oberbayern, Germany." I declined the db-nonsense and alerted the article creator and WP:BEER ... but suppose none of them come through? If an article appears as half-assed nonsense to many readers, even if in fact it's about a notable beer (there are lots of Google archive hits), should it be speedied? Although I personally don't care where we draw the line, I'd like to know where the line is. - Dank ( push to talk) 04:14, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
PROD it. Simple as that. Happy‑ melon 13:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
If a page gets speedy deleted (for example, A7) during an XFD discussion and then gets reposted in the same state, would G4 still apply? My reading of the criterion suggests that it wouldn't because the wording in G4 implicates that a full discussion resulting in a rough consensus for deletion has occurred (which if speedy deletion occurs during the XFD, that may not happen), and that criterion defends that consensus until another discussion occurs possibly changing that. MuZemike 02:10, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Just noticed this AFD close...
The result was Deleted as a hoax, with the power of AfD (as in, G4 if it reappears in the future)
The closer didn't cite a CSD criterion but being deleted as a "hoax" after 1 day suggests he was thinking "G3" and the closing statement seems to suggest that G4 would apply to future recreations. -- Ron Ritzman ( talk) 02:51, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Just deleted The Genius Series, which read:
I see articles like this deleted as A1, but I went with db-bio, on the theory that what's really going on here is that J.S. Alexander is asserting that he's a noted writer, even though he's not in the title. The same principle comes up occasionally with software; the company name will be plastered all over the article, and I get no Google hits for the company name. If an article looks like an attempt to make a non-notable company look notable, then it seems to me that that's probably exactly what it is, whether they put the company name in the title or not. Thoughts? - Dank ( push to talk) 16:34, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
In view of the examples shown during the discussion at the RfC: Even though the rule probably will not pass, we should be talking about setting up some system of routine review of deleted work, for the improvement of the encyclopedia by retrieving passable articles made by not just by those who know how to appeal, but by those who do not, and by those who may already have left. Of course, if this passes, we could do this too, but it would have a great deal more work to do. DGG ( talk) 17:02, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
I propose a new criteria be added to the list. If the subject of a biography of a living person article requests deletion, and that subject is of questionable notability, the article may be speedily deleted. Jehochman Talk 17:22, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
This happens once in awhile, but if anything, I think CSD T3 needs some amendment. Something, like this (new text in bold)
Templates that are not employed in any useful fashion after being tagged as such for seven days. This includes: substantial duplications of another template, hardcoded instances of another template where the same functionality could be provided by that other template, or navigation templates whose only other pages have either been merged into another article or deleted, and removal of the template would not effect navigation between any related articles
This happens alot with articles for television shows not notable enough to have stuff like this. ViperSnake151 Talk 19:38, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
I made a change here and self-reverted as a discussion is in order and WP:BOLD might not be the best call here. What I'm proposing is a change to G4 that makes it plain that we shouldn't speedy something when the policy/guideline that was cited as a deletion reason no longer applies. I don't really like my wording, and would appreciate all input. Hobit ( talk) 02:50, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
The other day, an article was created, the condition in which the article was created would not have passed an AFD. The article was nominated for CSD and then deleted. The article's creator contacted the deleting admin (who had gone offline) and then approached me about the article. I recreated it noting that it did not fit A7 or A3 (as it was deleted.) It was then taken to AFD. While the article would not have passed an AFD in its original shape, the article clearly does today. This is a perfect example of why the use of AFD is important to the project. It gives authors the chance to salvage articles that need help. It is why we should not delete the article because "we know it will be deleted anyways."--- I'm Spartacus! NO! I'm Spartacus! 04:58, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
The fact that it was improperly at AfD did result in the article being expanded, sources added, notability shown in spades; all good things. But that is besides the point. AfD is not an article expansion brigade. There are many thousands of subs-stubs sitting out there which are invalid speedies and in the same boat, i.e., they assert enough importance to not meet A7 and don't lack context, but do not meet notability standards by their current text but are notable. All of those thousands upon thousands of articles likewise need to be expanded, rewritten, sources found, etc. The same process this article went through could as well have been done to them. I think, thus, you're drawing a false conclusion from the good result. Any one of these articles can be made into a real article. AfD is not the process to obtain that end. Here, I'll give you an example. Let me go to the random article button. A few clicks later... Murrayonida and Eva García Pastor. Shall we take these to AfD to get them expanded? It would probably work but is the wrong way to go about it.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 13:45, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
The problem here is that it seems that people need to be threatened with deletion to fix articles. Alas some articles are probably brought to AFD with the intention that people who support the article will fix it and if not the nom rescinds the nomination, usually without fixing it themselves. AFD give a DEADLINE and encourages people to work. Of course that's not the intent of AFD, but is is frustrating how it seems to be the only thing that works.-- Ipatrol ( talk) 21:35, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I still think it's a terrible idea to take an article to AfD that isn't a valid AfD candidate, simply because you believe someone may retag. However, I have created a template to address the re-tagging itself in some measure: {{
oldcsd}}, takes two parameters, the second optional: 1) the CSD subsection (required), and 2) the reason for declining (optional). So, for example, {{oldcsd|A7|the article cites to reliable sources, which is an indication of importance}}
produces:
This article was tagged for speedy deletion under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion but a reviewing administrator or uninvolved experienced editor declined the request on the basis that: the article cites to reliable sources, which is an indication of importance. This article should not be tagged again for speedy deletion under the same criterion and, unless a valid, separate speedy deletion basis exists, further attempts at deleting this article should be made via the proposed deletion process (prod) if uncontroversial, or the article taken to articles for deletion (AfD) for debate on the merits. Note: this template should be removed once the associated article has survived an AfD debate; or has been significantly changed such that further speedy deletion requests are unlikely. |
-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 01:16, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
In addition to this, Dycedarg ( talk · contribs)'s bot could send notifications when a speedy is declined but later speedied under the same rationale, to the administrator who declined the initial tag (for review), and to the administrator who did the speedying (so he could consider undoing the speedy himself). -- causa sui talk 08:19, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
{{ Editprotected}} I'm putting this here because Template talk:Di-no permission-notice redirected me here. {{ Di-no permission-notice}} and {{ Di-no source no license-notice}} still talk about images only, the other two templates have already been changed to refer to files. Please do the same thing for these. Thanks and best regards, -- ChrisiPK ( talk) 02:01, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
I'd appreciate someone checking my logic on this one. My edit summary was: "Only one independent source in a local newspaper, no suggestion that other sources exist, and no additional significant hits at news.google.com/archivesearch. A7: does not indicate the importance or significance of the subject." - Dank ( push to talk) 16:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Followup question. Same issue, but a different article ( Webgistix) and now it's a small local newspaper, the Olean Times Herald (in the references section), that ran an article on the company. All of the 12 Google archives hits are press releases or similar. A7? - Dank ( push to talk) 03:53, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I'm confused. Last I knew all A7 required was an assertion of notability. The criterion specifically states that no actual reliable sources indicating notability are necessary, only that a credible assertion of notability must be made. Why are you running Google searches and checking sources? Isn't that what AFD is for?-- Dycedarg ж 04:19, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Repeat after me: A7 has nothing to do with notability. Thank you. -- NE2 04:38, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Your three criteria have nothing to do with A7 in letter or spirit. All A7 reqires is a lack of a statement like "my () is important". If I were a user and I created an article that was deleted due to failing to indicate sources exist, i'd complain. Read my lips: A7 has nothing to do with sources or notability. Your three criteria either demonstrate grave misunderstanding, or an attempt to rewrite the rulebook under the radar; both of which lead me to question your competence as an administrator. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.118.68.193 ( talk) 02:02, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
I just thought I would point out that this discussion is in the wrong place. This talk page is for discussion of possible changes to the associated project page, not for a general discussion of application of the policy given in that project page. Perhaps the Village Pump is the right place for such a discussion. JamesBWatson ( talk) 08:50, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Now that User:CSDCheckBot/log is being tested, we've got a tool to deal with the debate about db-nonsense. Full disclosure: my position is that deletion summaries are useful for communicating with editors, taggers and admins, and they should be optimized for that purpose; not everyone agrees. I still don't like using G1 at all as long as the various messages talk about "gibberish" and "nonsense". I would find it useful if the deletion summary said: "Content not suitable for an encyclopedia", and if it were used in cases where (like db-vandalism) it's apparent that the editor should have known better than to post that stuff, it's not just a case of fumbling around, but (unlike db-vandalism) we don't want a deletion summary that smacks them over the head. The (valid) counter-argument has always been that deleting admins are going to misapply G1 if it has a bland default deletion summary; but now we've got CSDCheckBot, and I'll be happy to keep an eye on odd applications of G1. - Dank ( push to talk) 15:56, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
The only content in Mexican Federal Highway 9 is the title, a rephrasing, and a translation to the source language. Does this qualify for criterion "A3", and why or why not? -- NE2 18:29, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Just notified the highway project of this discussion--- I'm Spartacus! NO! I'm Spartacus! 20:02, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
A3 goes on to say. "However, a very short article may be a valid stub if it has context, in which case it is not eligible for deletion under this criterion." I fail to see how this doesn't have context, and the quoted statement, starting with "however", tells us it doesn't matter if its a rephrasing of the title if it has context. We learn from this stub what it is called in Spanish, it's name in English, what it is and where it is (and that it is verifiable). It doesn't lack context.
Finally, we are here essentially on whether this meets the language of A3 but let's be clear. The speedy deletion criteria are not a mandate to delete if they are met. They state those occasions when speedy deletion is permissible. Just as I will IAR a neologism, "made up one day", I will decline a speedy where I think keeping it is the right thing or controversial or fails to meet the criterion stated or would hurt the encyclopedia, or would cause more drama than declining, and on and on. Speedy deletion (and tagging) should never be done reflexively.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 22:14, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
So perhaps this is going to be considered an aside, but it is mostly in response to the thoughts on keeping this article. So if I pick any street whatsoever, and then do an inline citation from a federal PDF to prove it exists, that somehow gives it merit enough even in the face that nothing is said about same road? This, to use a phrase, does not compute. -- Human.v2.0 ( talk) 02:03, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
This was tagged as db-spam, and I just deleted as db-bio. It's okay to delete as db-bio when the person's name is contained in the title, right? I know I could theoretically db-spam this one, but I'd rather not call the article "advertisement or promotional" ... I don't think this poor man who's established a $25000 scholarship in India Pakistan in his wife's name would understand why I'm accusing him of spam. Also, and I'd like feedback on one of my guiding principles: I think speedy deletion per db-spam serves an important function for the wikiprojects, discouraging people who are likely to soak up their time and offer nothing. The thing is, different wikiprojects have different tolerance levels for promotionalism; fashion and music editors tend not to think of a little promotionalism as a mark of the devil, but it tends to offend most academics, and I try to respect some of these differences. I don't think
WP:PAKISTAN would think of this article creator as one of the bad guys, so I decided to go the slightly more gentle route of db-bio, and leave him a nice note; there were only 2 minor Google hits, no Google archive hits, and no references. - Dank (
push to talk) 03:06, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
To get back to a general point ... are we agreed that the rules for db-spam vary a little depending on the type of article? I see a lot of music and software articles marked as db-spam ... but when I compare them to the music and software articles by new users that were not marked as spam, I see very little difference in the tone. Whether these articles get marked as db-spam seems to have a lot more to do with the personal distastes of the tagger. In practice, I generally A7 these if they're A7'able, and either prod them or add maintenance tags if they're not. - Dank ( push to talk) 16:36, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
If I'm not mistaken, most template talk pages can be deleted under {{ db-g6}} if they contain nothing useful (for example, a lone talk page header (like Template talk:Alicia Keys)). I say this because I remember it being discussed somewhere, and the fact that a lot of templates like these had their talk pages deleted. Was there a certain discussion where consensus was made to do this? — Σ xplicit 18:31, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
{{db-g6|wording=it is bluelinked for no reason, simply a talkheader. see [[Template:Talkheader]] usage notes}}
or something of the sort. –
xeno
talk 20:14, 7 June 2009 (UTC)Ah, thanks for the note, Xeno. And yes, I specifically saw you delete a handful, MBizanz. I just wanted to make sure, as I found nothing to back up my argument when I searched. Thanks, both of you. — Σ xplicit 20:20, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Several times I've found templates that consist entirely of red links because their parent articles have been deleted. I've never had any trouble getting these deleted via G8, but I think it would be better to make a new subset of G8 that includes something like "templates consisting entirely of links to nonexistant or deleted articles, with no transclusions." Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ( Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 00:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
The more I look at G11 the more I have a problem with it. I personally avoid G11 like the plague because I find the criteria to be too vague and undefined. Today I've run into two articles at AFD where people are advocating G11 deletions, but in both cases I completely disagree with the rationale. Criteria 1 says that the criteria should be objective, most reasonable people should be able to agree whether an article meets the criterion. Often this requires making the criterion very specific. I don't find this to be the case with many articles. Simply listing the products/services is not advertising, which is how many people seem to view the criteria. Criteria 2 says that the criteria should be uncontestable: it must be the case that almost all articles that could be deleted using the rule, should be deleted, according to general consensus. CSD criteria should only cover situations where there is a strong precedent for deletion. Don't forget that a rule may be used in a way you don't expect if not carefully worded. I don't find this to be the case with a lot of the articles that I review while monitoring G11 nominations. Most of the time when I see an article labeled G11, I think that the article should be worked on/improved, but is not so irrideemable as to be unworkable. The only time I personally delete G11 articles is if the article is so blatant in making claims such as "we are the best provider of" or "our experts are the leading." Cases where the article is clearly written by somebody in PR and almost definitely a copyvio! If it doesn't have that copyvio feel to it, I'd rather leave it at AFD. In short, the line between too spammy and a decent start is too murky when dealing with G11. G11 fails two of the four criteria necessary for a Speedy Deletion Criteria!--- I'm Spartacus! NO! I'm Spartacus! 18:37, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I support retention of G11. Not all G11 = G12, some is uniquly tailored to the wiki. I think that an article does not have to openly sell something to be spam. An ad or press release may simply get people interested or be used to build off other ad campagins. The reason spam is a CSD is that it's a blatent abuse of the site. By creating a piece of spam, the account has already demonstrated "Evedence to the contrary," invalidating AGF. Therefore, deletion of the article and driving off of the user is warrented. -- Ipatrol ( talk) 02:10, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
I think the key point here is that the original creators of advertising in articles' clothing are always welcome to rewrite their content and resubmit it in a more acceptable form. Advertising copy is rarely a good starting point for an article about a corporation or product, and more often than not articles that get G11ed are verbatim copies of press release or annual report boilerplate. The presence of G11 puts the responsibility for cleaning up the mess on the original submitters of content, where I believe it belongs. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 23:21, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
An apparent policy on this page includes this:
I say "apparent" because this apparent policy was created four years (and two months) ago without proper public discussion and consensus, by people who denied the existence of those who disagreed.
In the interests of morality we should remember from time to time that this "policy" was not created honestly.
I've recently written to Brion Vibber about bug #378 and re-opened it. That bug makes links to redirects with non-existent targets appear as blue links rather than as red links.
If that bug does get fixed (some day?) I will propose abolition of the destructive (apparent) policy against pre-emptive redirects. Michael Hardy ( talk) 00:04, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
You're mistaken. If an article links to a redirect with a non-existent target, then the link in the article appears as a blue link. If the bug gets fixed, it will appear as a red link. Michael Hardy ( talk) 16:18, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure whether it was this page or the WP:Redirects, but there was a time when policies recognized the legitimacy of pre-emptive redirects. Discussions then took place not on the policy's talk page, but through other channels, and it was repeatedly denied that there could be any reason for wanting pre-emptive redirects, by people to whom it had been patiently explained why pre-emptive redirects are valuable.
And, please: The criterion was added. Or the criteria were added. Michael Hardy ( talk) 16:17, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Prior to Angela's edit adding redirects to empty pages to the CSD, such redirects were being deleted routinely under the aegis of the "no context" criterion. Her edit codified existing practice. While I think the CSD is valuable, I would like to hear more about Michael Hardy's suggestion that redirects to nonexistent articles may be useful. It seems to me that such discussion probably belongs elsewhere, with the CSD updated as necessary once a decision is made. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 23:35, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to nail down how we feel about apparent essays and WP:OR that comes across as childish. We don't have 100% agreement, but we've got consensus something along these lines, I think. There's no "right to speedy" and no CSD criterion for essays. Nevertheless, 90% of them get speedied, because people are a little tougher applying the other criteria to this stuff:
Bottom line: I don't wanna do it. All first-time articles for performers say the performers are great; if I delete the articles that say the performers are really, really great, and keep the ones that only say they're great, I don't think I'm performing any useful sorting service to Wikipedia. I typically decline with an edit summary something like, "Declining band-related {{ db-spam}} speedy deletion, adding {{ advert}}. For first-time articles about performers (which are usually promotional), try discussing with a wikiproject, rewriting, WP:PROD, or WP:AfD". Thoughts? - Dank ( push to talk) 22:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Okay, I have just made what I believe is an inherently non-controversial change to A7. Of course, there is no such thing as an uncontroversial change to A7, so I am posting a rationale here, pending reversion of my change. And as we all know, after "B" and "R", comes "D".
I will refer to "claim of significance or importance" simply as "claim".
Q: What exactly is changed?
A: While the old wording made it clear that A7 does not apply to articles that make any credible "claim", the new wording says that A7 only applies to articles which make no credible "claim". It's a negation, of sorts.
(Diff)
Q: So what difference does that make?
A: The old wording didn't explicitly state whether A7 could be applied to articles with a clearly non-credible claim. The new wording makes it clear that A7 can in fact be applied to such articles. Articles judged against A7 can be roughly divided into three categories:
From A7, one can easily deduce that #1 articles may be deleted. It may be strongly implied that #2 are eligible as well, but not explicitly stated. It is also clear that #3 articles may not be deleted (and the change does not attempt to remedy that in any way!)
Q: Is this a sneak attempt at broadening/narrowing the scope of A7?
A: No. The old wording was added back in 2006 to explicitly allow the common practice of deleting articles containing claims which no one would deem credible.
"he also has x-ray vision" was used as an example. And from my experience this is how A7 is being enforced in practice. Ridiculous claims that no one would deem credible (in the same vein as G3-able hoaxes) are disregarded. I therefore think that the change better reflects current practice, and the original intent of the clause.
"Q": This is just common sense, there is no need for further complication of the policy.
A+Q: That's a reasonable point of view, but the change does not make the policy more complicated or detailed. At the same time, it resolves what may be conceived as a slight ambiguity, so what's the harm?
decltype ( talk) 17:52, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I like the new version. I think the positive wording is clearer. If there are difficulties with it, we'll see as they develop. DGG ( talk) 03:29, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Hi,
There's a discussion underway at wikiproject copyright cleanup about articles which have been started as copyvios but later rewritten or stubified to a non-infringing status. For cases where an admin is investigating a report, they have the means to remove the infringing past from the article's history, or simply delete the entire article and start over. Non-admins however do not have that possibility. That either leaves G12 for content which is no longer infringing, not exactly a suitable solution, or leaving it, something which is currently within practice and policy but still not really ideal.
In order to give non-admin copyright investigators a tool to deal with such cases, one idea would be to expand G6 to a new type, history purge. This would enable us to flag an article which we found salvaged or stubified ourselves for final cleanup without clogging up WP:CP further or trying to get hold of the relatively few admins active at WP:COPYCLEAN to sort it for us.
The counter argument would of course be to simply tag G12, wait until the article gets deleted and start over. This is however a bit unpractical, in particular when working down eg the backlog at WP:SCV - in general we'd investigate one article, take the appropriate measures, perform some article actions and then move on to the next article on the list. Keeping track separately of articles we tag for G12 with the intent to rewrite them later will eventually become complicated, doesn't prevent the re-creation of the same article back in an infringing state before we can recreate a non-infringing one (whereas the presence of a modified article is probably not only a good safeguard against that, it also leaves a non-infringing version to revert to if needed later on), or loses GFDL contrib history in case the stubification was made by others before we investigated.
The tag would by default indicate that the history up to the present revision is to be purged (stubification by investigator) or the diff prior to which the purge should occur (stubification by others).
Thoughts? MLauba ( talk) 22:48, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to immediately caveat this with a warning that I have not ironed out or thought through the implementation details of this proposal. I can see some issues that this solves, and some issues that it creates. Bear with me, and consider this a start for some pondering that might lead to a proposal, rather than being a proposal in of itself.
Some of the issues that I see raised frequently over CSDs are the risk of driving away new contributors and the fact that article creators may find their work tagged within seconds of creation because they build it up in stages. The standard reply to this latter point (which I admit to using myself in the past) is that users should create pages in their userspace first and move them when ready, a subtlety that may be lost on very new contributors.
My basic idea is that for certain CSD criteria, the action of the reviewing administrator is not immediate deletion but userfication, with caveats. This is best illustrated by an example: An article is created that might be viewed as CSD A7. It is tagged as such by a new page patroller, and an admin reviews it and asserts that it meets the criteria. The admin then moves the article somewhere - I am suggested userspace, but a separate, temporary holding area could be created. The article creator is notified, and the article tagged somehow for further review after a fixed period of time (place it in a category, remove it, place it is a Wikipedia space subpage and move-protect it so that it can't be pushed into mainspace unilaterally). If it is sufficiently improved that it no longer meets the criteria, it can be moved back to the mainspace; if not, it is deleted.
The advantages are:
The disadvantages:
I've only got these two disadvantages (I'm sure there are more), but I'm convinced that with discussion, we could work out a system where these are mitigated to the point where this system of moving articles to a holding pen with a delayed deletion is a net benefit. I know that this technically means they wouldn't be criteria for speedy deletion, but they would be criteria for uncontested deletion - in that, unlike a PROD, the article creator couldn't just remove the tag and ignore it.
Lots to discuss, anyway - please don't just support or oppose the above - I'm not interested in either being beaten down or having my ego stroked! :) I genuinely just want a discussion about the possibility of altering our system to overhaul our non-AfD deletion process (which may include amendments to our proposed deletion process) and make deletion seem less hasty and hostile than it currently seems to appear to our newer editors. Fritzpoll ( talk) 09:20, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
←Gigs, the links don't seem on-point. I don't know yet what solution Fritzpoll would consider ideal, but for the sake of counterargument, suppose we're talking about an additional tag that an admin could add to an article that's been tagged for speedy deletion, resulting in a bot userfying the article, leaving a message for the article creator: "An admin has requested that this article be moved to your own userspace temporarily to give you a chance to read WP:Your first article (or whatever). (For non-IPs) Please ask at WP:N? for help if that doesn't answer your questions; if the article isn't edited for one week, this bot will remove the article". You would think that that wouldn't help much ... surely they would edit just to stop the article destruction ... but in fact, 90% won't read anything and won't edit the article. Anything that reduces the workload by 90%, while avoiding the sometimes angry reaction to a quick deletion, might be helpful, even if this proposal winds up saving no articles at all. Btw, Fritzpoll, some discretion would be required for A7 articles; we don't want to be solicitous towards every creator of an article that gets tagged as A7; some of those articles have the same issues as db-spam articles. - Dank ( push to talk) 13:24, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
An interesting thing that comes up a number of times here is that in most cases, CSD does not actually create an obligation to delete. Though copyvios, spam, and attack pages are in fact required to be deleted as noted by the Wikimedia Foundation legal council, if a CSD article can be improved, anyone is free to do so. I once even rescued a partial copyvio. If an admin feels userfication is an appropriate alternative course of action, the admin can userfy most CSD pages. Therefore considering how bogged down this proposal has become with all the perennial debates and side propositions, I propose that we simply make an unofficial footnote that userfication is often a good alternative to deletion for most speedy criteria.-- Ipatrol ( talk) 01:16, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
This sets an instructional option for the admin which is sufficiently open that they can make a choice either way, the only real issue is a as already raised what happens in the long term to these articles if there is no further edits? Can we create a CSD option that says userfied csd article that hasnt been expanded since userfying. Gnan garra 07:25, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
What if we just made it easier to userfy, with some javascript to do all at the push of a button. I imagine a tab at the top "userfy" which moves the article to the creators userspace, notifies the creator, and then if the user is an admin, just deletes the redirect, if non-admin, tags speedy on cross space redirect. It would refuse to do this on any article that has significant contributions other than the original editor. What do you all think? Gigs ( talk) 16:44, 13 June 2009 (UTC) edited to simplify process 16:52, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
As pointed out above, we already have the ability to userfy, and now we have a kind offer of a tool to help. So we're left with the issue of what to do when the article isn't touched for xx days/weeks/months. Seems to me the options are:
For the last three options, it seems it would be helpful to have a category or bot listing that would let people find pages that need review. Thoughts?-- Fabrictramp | talk to me 20:11, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
So the concrete proposals I can glean from this are: Gigs has offered above to write a script making userfication easy. Fritzpoll has offered to write a bot to keep a central list of the userfied articles. After two months with no edits, any editor who wishes can send them to MfD. (If MfD starts to feel overloaded, the community can always look at a prod/speedy option.) Objections?-- Fabrictramp | talk to me 20:24, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello, There have been a few speedies of articles/images being discussed at XfD or DrV. Certainly in some cases that's needed (BLP issues, non-free stuff for example) but I'd like to propose that A) such a speedy should immediately be mentioned at the current discussion B) should be strongly discouraged unless there is an extremely pressing issue. Thoughts? Hobit ( talk) 23:55, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
This: [2] is the most recent case of this occurring. I guess I should have contacted the admin (who I know, respect, and supported for admin) but I wanted a more general policy solution rather than a 1 off. It has happened a few times recently. Hobit ( talk) 00:12, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
I guess what I want to know is if there is a guideline or policy about at least commenting at the XfD if you speedy something that is currently being discussed. If not, should there be? Hobit ( talk) 17:34, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Is there any technical barrier to placing noindexing (__NOINDEX__) in all of the csd tagging templates (and {{ hangon}} and {{ prod}} and {{ afd1}}) such that when placed those templates on a page, that page will no longer get indexed by Google and other search engines? If not, why wouldn't we want to do this? It seems to me so many apparent benefits would run from this. Just as an example it is likely to reduce the creation of some inappropriate content as there are some people that are aware that they are creating pages that won't last long but are hoping to get some 15 minutes of Google indexing fame out of creation. It would make attack pages and copyvios less likely to leave a weeks long trail in their wake of visibility outside of Wikipedia, even after deleted, for which there is always an increased risk of legal liability. There's more benefits I could list but I just wanted to broach the subject.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 09:56, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Raised at Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/Paid_editing#Judge_edits_independently_of_editors.3F. What is, precisely, the rationale behind G5? NVO ( talk) 13:08, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Since we cannot accept GFDL-only licensed text content now, I suggest we add an additional criteria or amend G12 to allow speedy deletion for this situation when the entire page consists of GFDL-only content:
Incompatible licensing, a page primarily consisting of text content that is only licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License and not licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike license at all as dictated by the terms of use, and has been tagged as such for 7 days. This does not apply to media files.
Any messages sent to users would provide appropriate instructions telling them to make sure they have OTRS permission for the content. There would also be a dated template similar to the ones used for stuff like no permission in the file namespace that it can be tagged with during the waiting period. The 7-day wait is to ensure that attempts to get the proper permission can be made. Something like this would be good, right? ViperSnake151 Talk 21:30, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I know that it may not make sense on the surface to remove a criteria that deletes something that is empty. The problem is that C1 is being used to bypass the process in WP:CFD. These are typically hard to catch especially since more admins don't take the time to see if the category was emptied out of process. This is not easy since there are no tools to make this easy to do. Some editors have found ways to use the google cache to get an older picture. But that still requires digging to find out why it was emptied. I suspect that most of these deletions are actually out of process so we could hold the admins doing the deletes accountable for out of process deletions. Clearly that is not my intent. I'd rather remove a deletion criteria that can cause well meaning admins to violate process. One editor recently admitted that they were using the C1 process to cleanup after page moves with the specific intent to avoid a full CfD discussion.
If we eliminate C1, it would need to be replaced with a speedy deletion somewhere in CfD. Most likely an addition to the speedy rename process that is there already.
I'm not ready to propose this quite yet, but just wanted to open a discussion to see how others feel. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:10, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
For the same reasons that RS has RSN, BLP has WP:BLPN, COI has WP:COIN, etc ... would the wiki esplode if we had a speedy deletion noticeboard? I've been asking questions about individual articles here, so far, but if I could go into greater detail and ask more questions, it would be helpful, although maybe too tedious for WT:CSD. If people drop by and comment, great, if they don't, then we shut it down and post the notices here instead. - Dank ( push to talk) 19:21, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Okay, first up is Früctan, this was just tagged and speedied as db-spam, here's the text:
Früctan
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Früctan- (frroo-ck-tahn) origin fructo, meaning fruit; as it is said to be the sweet fruit from the chicken Invented on the 19th of June 2009, Früctan is an extraordinary snack/treat which is quick and simple to make and not only provides intense flavour but also saves money. It is often made alongside meringue, as the recipe only requires the yolk of an egg. Früctan is a perfect snack as it takes only 8 minutes to prepare and 1 minute to cook. Can be served with golden-syrup, cream, raisins or even meringue. For the recipe, go to wiki-how. Creators: Alice Booth-Sheffield born 1993 Jessica Piette-Swiss born 1992 Experiences with Früctan: 'I smelled it from next door when Booth and Piette were making it for the first time- it reminded of the sweet hours of my childhood, when my mother would make meringue except that this smell had a new twist. When I finally tasted it, I knew that meringue would never be enough for me anymore. There had to be something more... And Früctan was that; exactly that.' anonamous |
FWIW, my vote would have been to speedy it, too, for the same reason I'd speedy anything by a first-time contributor ( User:Alicenjess in this case) that sounds like "It's so tasty, make it today!" But there's a reasonable counterargument that goes something like this: db-spam is for identifying those articles that either are highly likely to be promotional (for instance, if the username is the company name) or articles where you can't nail down the COI, but the language used is exactly the kind of language used if there were COI. If an innocent first-time contributor wanders by some company's website, copies their promotional brochure, re-writes it just enough to avoid G12, and posts it, then db-spam is fine, in general. So ... what person, business, product, or ideology was this article promoting? The ideology of meringue-based cooking? Are they trying to sell eggs for the Dairy Council? They didn't give the link to wiki-how, but if this really was invented 2 days ago, then it hasn't had time to show up in a cookbook that they might be trying to sell. This is probably WP:NFT, but what's it promoting? - Dank ( push to talk) 20:26, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
[This space intentionally left blank]
Dead Man's Party (Six Flags Great Adventure)
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Dead Man's Party is a musical theater production at Six Flags Great Adventure in Jackson, New Jersey. It is hands down the best yearly attraction act the park which draws crowds of hundreds of people several times daily during the annual Six Flags Fright Fest. The cast and crew do a great job and the performance is entertaining and consistently well done. It is about 25 minutes long.
1st Thriller - Micheal Jackson 2nd Ramalama - Roisin Murphy 3rd Dead Man's Party - Oingo Boingo 4th Meet the Creeper - Rob Zombie 5th Halloween - Aqua 6th Phantom of the Opera - Nightwish 7th No One Lives Forever - Oingo Boingo 8th Ballroom Blitz - Sweet |
I deleted per db-org instead of the suggested db-spam ... agreed? If someone writes about something they enjoy, and they don't use language that's right out of the brochure or sounds like it could be, then that's not considered promotional enough for db-spam ... even if they are really enthusiastic. Another factor in declining the db-spam was that the article creator had made a few edits to unrelated articles. - Dank ( push to talk) 22:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
I have a pair of questions about the CSD criteria for deleting file:
Thanks! – Drilnoth ( T • C • L) 14:44, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
Should rescaled fair-use images need to be kept for at least 7 days before the larger version can be deleted?
I notice that CSD U1 and G7 is similar. While G7 requires good faith/blanking, U1 does not. Is both same? The Junk Police ( reports| works) 04:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
It's been brought to my attention that there's nothing in the actual CSD policy to prevent the entire speedy deletion process being implemented by one person. In other words, as the policy's presently written, the tagger and the deleting admin could be the same person. This strikes me as potentially very problematic.
I agree with Uninvited Company when he says that CSD is increasingly becoming the deletion policy of the project, and I'm concerned that the whole thing can be done by one person. The potential for error there is too high.
I propose a change in the wording of the policy, such that the tagger and the deleter should be two separate people.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 18:27, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Personally I can sympathise with the use of one-pair-of-eyes speedy for attack pages, copyvios, certain BLP issues, or other matters where speedy deletion is clearly essential for defence of Wikipedia. If there's no potential harm to Wikipedia, then in my opinion the benefits of a second pair of eyes outweigh the potential damage-except for G7 and U1, where deletion is uncontroversial.
Accordingly, I'd frame a draft policy like this:
Extended content
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I realise this would be inconvenient for some of you, and I hope you can see the logic and the potential benefits even if you disagree.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 20:44, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
I have mixed feelings on this... I do think that we should have two sets of eyes on most deletions, but I'm not sure if I would go so far as to encapulate that in a policy/guideline. I do know that when I was looking at CSD's a lot of the problems I saw were from single eye deleters.--- Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 21:28, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
There is no requirement for tagging in the first place. The CSD criteria are only written for the admin who does the deletion; they were specifically chosen as situations where it is common for admins to delete things without discussion. Unless there is some evidence that there is a large number of incorrect deletions from some criteria (not just a large number of correct deletions), there is no reason to change our practice in this area. — Carl ( CBM · talk) 03:18, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
I was really looking for some kind of concession here, folks. Why not take a look at DRV, and read the reactions we see from new editors whose articles are deleted under CSD?
Part of the problem is that CSD is extremely bitey. What I'd like to be able to show these people is that we delete material on sight where there's a good case that it's harmful, but if it's not actively harmful, it takes more than one pair of eyes. And yes, I do understand why someone jaded from new pages patrolling might object to me coming up with an obstacle to their getting rid of the 37th high-school rock band with references from myspace and youtube that shows up that evening, but, there is a purpose to it.
I find the argument that "we trust admins" very weak, because it's circular. Adminship is becoming a bigger and bigger deal, and RFA's turning from the sublime to the ridiculous, for exactly this reason. And the proportion of active editors to active admins is rising up the sharp end of a very nasty exponential curve because of it.
We need to accept that admins are human and capable of making mistakes, and we need to recognise that mistakes involving the delete button are highly problematic because for every one we see at DRV, how many potentially excellent new editors who only need a bit of encouragement and guidance, are quitting the site in disgust?
Tony Fox also makes some good points above, which could benefit from more thought imo.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 21:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Yes, two people can make a mistake. But at least if there are two, there's been some kind of checking process, so when the complaints come to DRV later, we can point to that and make a convincing argument that the deletion wasn't completely arbitrary.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 22:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
It's apparent to me that this idea has support, but it does not appear to have enough support to incorporate as a policy. Accordingly, I intend to write an essay about it, which I'll mention here when it's complete.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 09:46, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Can an article talk page (eg one that contains only vandalism/nonsense, and has no other history) be nominated for speedy deletion? And if so, how? 58.8.15.76 ( talk) 16:29, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
This was tagged as db-spam, and for many taggers, this article seems like the essence of spam ... except that I don't think it is, looking at the creator's contributions. I downgraded to {{ prod-nn}} and added {{ advert}}. My take on db-spam is that there's something about it that makes me pretty sure that it was created by someone with WP:COI or someone who sounds like they have WP:COI. {{ Peacock}} language is much more common than articles worthy of db-spam, and deserves something more like a NERF clue-bat than a 10-pound hammer, IMO. - Dank ( push to talk) 20:44, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Although I thought G4 was worded pretty clearly, at Talk:Wikinfo an editor is insisting the only way G4 applies is if the new content is a literal copy - no changes whatsoever - of the deleted version. This is happening because he has looked up the dictionary definition of "copy". The way G4 has been applied for years is that the new version has to address reasons for deletion (assuming there was a deletion debate that deleted the page). This is really the only sensible way for G4 to work, otherwise people could just reword a bit so it's not literally a copy, then policy would demand a new XFD every time until someone just applied WP:IAR to the situation.
At any rate, I think this can all be fixed by changing the word "copy" to "recreation" - I suspect the word copy being there is just a legacy of a much older, more rigid CSD. So where it currently says:
I would like it to say:
If the interpretation is that an article has to literally be a letter-for-letter copy of the deleted one to qualify for G4, we might as well just remove the "and that any changes in the recreated page do not address the reasons for which the material was deleted" wording, as that's impossible if the article is a carbon copy.
I am not planning on advertising this proposal because I believe it's a minor wording change that reflects current practice anyway. -- Chiliad22 ( talk) 21:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
So make that two people, if you like. :)— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 22:07, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
The reason I added the text to the article Wikinfo is because it is a redirect and when I added the text I had no idea that it had been deleted. It was only when I went to add a comment to the talk page that I realised that the page had been deleted. I looked through six AfD's and as far as I can tell, there has never been a consensus to delete the page. The reason given in The sixth AFD was "Fails WP:WEB". An article on this topic is of direct benefit to out readers because somewhere between 100 and 200 articles have to attribute text to Wikinfo and as far as I can tell the issue was never raised during the Sixth AfD. I put it to the reader of this page that it is not unreasonable for a reader who sees an Wikipedia article attributing text to Wikinfo, to expect Wikipedia to have an entry on such an entity from which it has copied text! And as such an entry written under the Wikipedia policies of NPOV, it should be trustworthy. There are reliable sources around which can support the text I included as a stub (which cover V and OR). I did not include them with the text, which was a cut an past job from History of wikis#Development of wiki websites to the end of 2003, and I assumed as a stub there would be time to add them if anyone wanted to include a {{ fact}} template.
The G4 reason for the speedy deletion is to clean up the recreation of an article by the same editor or editors, just as the Wikipedia:Protection policy#Creation protection "can also prevent the creation of a page through the protection dialog. This is useful for articles that have been deleted but repeatedly recreated by an editor." In a case like this, were a new editor alters a redirect into an article and is not copying the old text, it is for an editor who objects not to to use the speedy deletion process but to go through the usual deletion process.
This is more than an argument over angels on a pinhead, because of the assumption of no change without a consensus. Suppose only the creator and the objector are involved in a dispute over the creation of a page, does a disinterested administrator close the page in favour of the current consensus? In which case depending on whether the process is an AfD or a CSD G4 will determine what the current consensus is.
The wording of G4 is quite adequate if it is meant to protect Wikipedia from the intent to circumvent a deletion (anyone who is familiar with speedy deletes will be familiar with the creation of articles by the same editors with either the same name or a slightly different one and the current wording covers those whack a rat situations). As it is currently worded it also stops an editor trying to use it to gain a procedural advantage as I described in the preceding paragraph, so I recommend that the wording it is not changed. -- PBS ( talk) 10:56, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
The criterion does not apply to any article that makes any credible claim of significance or importance even if the claim is not supported by a reliable source. If the claim's credibility is unclear, you can improve the article yourself, propose deletion, or list the article at articles for deletion.
I don't know if I'm understanding this right. So if someone makes creates an article about "John Doe", and makes the claim "John Doe ran to to the moon and back five times", you can't speedy it under A7? You have to prod it or afd it? Or is it just borderline claims that you can't speedy, that are plausible. The text doesn't seem to say specifically what to do with non credible claims. Fingerz On'Roids 11:49, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Two many negatives and conditionals in the qualifying language. It makes sense but it's very hard to parse what is meant. Why not make it a positive statements with the credibility aspect right up front: "...or web content that does not credibly indicate why its subject is important or significant
" (or possibly "plausibly"). I think this gets rid of the need for both qualifying later sentences, which are very confusing as written.--
162.83.162.35 (
talk) 13:41, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
I hope Calton will weigh in on this one. He tagged it as db-spam and I agreed, but I think some of you will probably disagree and I'd like to hear the arguments, please. This was the only contribution by this editor, and it read: "Ascii Fish, The Netherlands is an web development company which operates in The Netherlands, The Antilles and Aruba. Ascii Fish (or AsciiFish) is a small business company founded in 2009. The company's core business areas are web services, multimedia & graphic designs and Web project consulting." Apparently they're right about the size of the business; there wasn't even a Google hit on "ascii fish" "netherlands", and no news archive hits on "ascii fish" or "asciifish". The argument that this wasn't db-spam, I think, is that the language wasn't so promotional that it could have only come from one of the principals, or from someone using language that one of the principals would use. But it seems to me that's a technical argument; a better question to ask is: was it very likely to be one of the principles, someone who was only here to promote their stuff and not make any useful contributions to Wikipedia? I think that seems very likely: a company so small that no one seems to have heard of it, a business that's about "web development" (which greatly increases the odds that they're here to promote their stuff, the same as with articles from new contributers about a new public relations, advertising, or herbal viagra business), and no other contributions. The odds just seem tiny that this was created by someone who doesn't profit from this business, or that reasoning with them has any likelihood of turning them into a useful contributor. I would have used A7 if this had been in articlespace, but it wasn't. - Dank ( push to talk) 17:21, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Is there a speedy deletion criterion for uploading an inappropriate image? Bababababababababybel62 ( talk) 19:39, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Earlier today, an administrator declined two consecutive {{ db-nonsense}} tags on the grounds that the pages were in a foreign language, therefore exempt from G1. Now I agree with both of that administrator's assessments, but it reminded me of a case, some time ago, where I saw a listing at WP:PNT for a page in French, and, being a native French speaker, I looked at the page and deemed it to be a word salad that was worthy of the speediest G1 tagging. (The words were indeed French, but the sentence was nonsensical.) An administrator declined my tagging of that page, and only after I explained the situation on his talk page did he finally delete the page.
What I want to do here is not exactly a change of policy, new CSD criterion, or anything like that, but I want to implement a way of notifying a CSD-reviewing administrator that a certain foreign-language page has been deemed nonsensical even in its language, either through a template designed for that purpose, a parameter to the {{ db-nonsense}} tag, an accompanying tag, or any other solution one might propose.
Any ideas? -- Blanchardb - Me• MyEars• MyMouth- timed 15:05, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
<- I agree with this sentiment, in the rare case of a foreign-language G1, but I'd much prefer specifying this in an edit summary or using an Ø edit, rather than creating a page for this purpose only. Which makes me think: If it's at all translatable, it does not really fall under G1, does it? A1, G2, and G3 may be a better alternative. decltype ( talk) 13:09, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi. Yesterday an admin cleared a newly created article of copyright infringement because the source from which it was imported is licensed under GFDL. This matter was addressed with the specific admin, but I just figured it might be a good idea to remind everyone that we can no longer accept material that is solely licensed under GFDL. At minimum, it must be compatible with CC-By-SA, and GFDL is not. (See Wikimedia:Terms of Use.) -- Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Xeno has an objection that some standard links in cases of db-spam and near-db-spam are inappropriate, so I edited WP:WHYNOT, and I'm including that link in some cases where I speedy userpages and articles. It's intended to be a lot shorter (new contributors are rarely willing to read long pages) and a little more helpful and AGF'ing than WP:ADS, WP:PROMO and WP:COI (although it links to COI). Suggestions welcome. - Dank ( push to talk) 18:25, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Reading some very good comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Mojo-hustla led me to think carefully about the way we refer to "spam" in Wikipedia, and I found I was not happy about it. I myself have in the past tended to use the word "spam" rather freely in edit summaries, but I now think this is a mistake. There are many people who run perfectly respectful businesses, and would not dream of using spam in the real world, who come to Wikipedia, and, with the best of intentions, place publicity material here. Of course this reflects a failure to understand the nature of Wikipedia, but they are doing nothing which would be regarded as reprehensible in normal business practice. And what happens? They find themselves labelled as spammers. This does not give them a friendly welcome to Wikipedia, it does not assume good faith, and by seeming like an aggressive accusation it is not likely to encourrage them to take a cooperative line. I wonder whether the word "spam" should be removed altogether from Wikipedia: "db-spam" could perhaps be replaced with something like "db-promo". Likewise Wikipedia:Spam could be Wikipedia:PROMO, which at present is a redirect to a section of Wikipedia:Spam. I am also posting this comment to Wikipedia talk:Spam, as it is equally relevant there. I suggest if anyone has any response to offer that they should make it there rather than here: it would not be helpful having two discussions on the same topic. JamesBWatson ( talk) 19:14, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
This is an example of the kind of thing I think we we need a "blatantly WP:NFT" speedy for. It's not G1 (incoherent or gibberish), it's not really G3 (misinformation or hoax) which implies actual false statement or intent to deceive, it's not A1, A3 or A7 - but do we really have to give it seven days' exposure before it gets zapped? JohnCD ( talk) 13:00, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I just deleted it under the good ol' IAR criterion. Coming up with a criterion to describe that deletion might be fun. - GTBacchus( talk) 15:06, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
One idea: introduce a criterion for things that assert insignificance, along the lines of A7 (which covers articles that don't contain an assertion of significance). An article which effectively states "this was just made up" is asserting insignificance. Hut 8.5 19:06, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
It reminds me of the vandal, again very uncommon, who says this. I didn't hesitate to block that guy, nor to identify the reason as "vandalism". - GTBacchus( talk) 20:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
One of the drawbacks of using CSD:G3 on such articles is that calling something "vandalism" assumes bad faith. I wouldn't oppose a new CSD criterion for subjects that are "blatantly unverifiable" (ie an AGF variant of G3) but right now the best way to handle such cases is to take them to AFD but allow such debates to be closed early if it quickly becomes clear that other participants can't verify the subject either. That way if a newbie creates an article about a game played at their school but nobody else outside the school has ever heard of or a made up word, it can be quickly deleted without calling the newbie a vandal. -- Ron Ritzman ( talk) 02:54, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Pure vandalism or silliness. This includes blatant and obvious misinformation, redirects created by cleanup from page-move vandalism, blatant hoaxes and nonsensical and obviously non-encyclopedic pages.
An article that seeks to promote a subject that is clearly made up by the article's creator and which does not indicate why its subject might be important or significant. The criterion does not apply to any article that makes any credible claim of significance or importance even if the claim is not supported by a reliable source. If the claim's credibility is unclear, you can improve the article yourself, propose deletion, or list the article at articles for deletion.
However, I'm not sure that "what is the best wording for the proposed new rule?" is the right question: I think the question should be "is there a need for a new rule at all?". I am genuinely amazed to find that several contributors to this discussion do not regard a decision to deliberately put silly and frivolous material into Wikipedia as constituting bad faith, but, granted that that is the case, so that "vandalism" is out, there still seem to me to be other usable criteria. Firstly, DGG suggests A7 could be used, and I agree. Mazca says "I may have been tempted to push the boundaries very slightly and delete this under A7", but I don't see that any boundary pushing is needed: the article did not assert significance, and the article purported to be about an an organization, as it referred to named people who were supposed to organise the religion. I also see no problem with DGG's suggestion of using A1 (no context). The article threw names of people at us with no indication of who they were, and gave no indication as to when or where or under what circumstances the pretended religion was founded: I think there was no context given. In my opinion the fundamental problem here is trying to apply rules too rigidly. Whatever rules we have, and however we phrase them, there will be cases which, if we argue about the exact details of how to interpret the rules, will not be covered by them. If each time we come across such a case we sit around and discuss how to make a new rule (or modify an existing one) to cover it, we will not reduce the tendency for such awkward cases to arise, and we will make Wikipedia more awkward and cumbersome, more difficult to use, easier for people to twist around by finding some interpretation of some rule which fits their purpose. We all know that this article was so obviously rubbish that it needed to be deleted, and I would be prepared to bet that all or almost all of us would agree that it should have been speedily deleted (As expressed so succinctly by GTBacchus: "If there isn't a speedy criterion that covers this, it's just because we haven't written it down yet". We should not forget the fifth of the five pillars: Wikipedia does not have firm rules besides the five general principles presented here. Be bold in editing, moving, and modifying articles. If we all always remembered that, then we would not be wasting our time on this discussion: the criteria for deletion, like all Wikipedia policies and guidelines, are flexible, broad suggestions rather than exact rules, and it really is not worth arguing about whether this case exactly fits the letter of G3, A1, or A7. It clearly needs to be speedily deleted, and as long as it comes reasonably near to one or more of them, that is good enough: the article goes.
Finally, of the comments above which favour introducing a new criterion, the one with which I have most sympathy is mazca's in general it would be nice to have a criterion we can use for things that are blatantly unencyclopedic but are made in good faith through a misunderstanding of Wikipedia. Yes, it would be nice. However, in practice I think it would be impossible to make it have that effect without making it so broad as to create more problems than it would solve. Can you just imagine some of the things which would be seen by some people as unencyclopedic and as based on misunderstanding of Wikipedia? JamesBWatson ( talk) 03:40, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
The essay is drafted at User:S Marshall/Essay2.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 17:01, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't see that there are any cases where promotional material is directly harmful to Wikipedia, and nor do I see it as unreasonable to suggest that two pairs of eyes should be involved in such a deletion. I do realise it's inconvenient to those who're accustomed to going through Wikipedia deleting large tranches of material on their own authority, and I'm afraid that's exactly what I intended.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 15:48, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
You are welcome to edit the essay, Dank, even though it's in my userspace, and so is anyone else. It's not my intention to close off discussion, though I shall certainly continue to push for what I see as a commonsense result.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 17:19, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 22:49, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Could someone more knowledgeable on the policy clarify what is meant by "credible claim of significance or importance" in A7? Does this mean claims of meeting one of the notability guidelines, or does any credible claim of importance go? I'm confused because an article, Lewis The First, was deleted under A7 despite stating that that the subject had "gained a great following" and had "hit songs". The rationale was "No indication that the article may meet guidelines for inclusion". Is this appropriate use of A7? I'm mostly asking to clarify any misunderstandings I might have about the policy. The article probably would have been deleted anyway for not meeting WP:MUSICBIO. Thanks, Jafeluv ( talk) 22:00, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
It seems like that on the chart on the bottom of this page, Template:Db-hoax is missing, which should be part of the G3 criterion. Also, Template:Db-pagemove appears to qualify for G6, instead of G3, according to the template itself. Ydouthink90 ( talk) 21:31, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I've come across many articles on AfD that are illustrated with images. I propose to expand G8 as thus:
Any image that becomes orphaned as the result of an AfD can be deleted immediately (i.e. not listing on IfD or waiting seven days) if 1) it is a fair use logo that has no plausible use other than in the original deleted article; or 2) it is a picture whose primary subject is the subject of a deleted biographical article, who is not believed to be a Wikipedia user (in this case the user might want to put it on their userpage).
Any opinions? -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 18:16, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
If the image of the subject of the article is free, we should not speedy it. It may need to be moved to Commons (used eventually on this or other projects). It may illustrate something else, in addition to the subject of the deleted article. If somebody in the future, writes a proper article on the same topic, worthy of retention, the text can usually be re-written from scratch by anybody, but finding a new picture of a person can be very difficult, or impossible sometimes. It's generally not a easy thing, to just go out and create a new picture of somebody you don't know personally. I'm not saying all such images should be kept (here or on Commons), but they definately should not be speedied. As for the logo suggestion, it doesn't really matter either way (immediate or delayed deletion). -- Rob ( talk) 23:12, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I might be missing something obvious but should redirects from moving user pages to article space still exist? I'm under the impression the answer should be NO and therr should be a speedy for it. Duffbeerforme ( talk) 18:39, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
A lively discussion that could use more voices. - Dank ( push to talk) 23:20, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that there is no CSD that applies to articles that are complete BS, or neologisms, or "The cool idea my friends and I came up with at the bar". Any chance one can be added so that these obviously useless pages needn't clog up afd? -- ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 22:29, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I proposed some time ago (with little comment) the following criterion that covers a blend of WP:NFT material that would also rope in neo/proto-logisms:
An article on a thing (word, phrase, game, ceremony, philosophy, religion, etc.), which indicates that it was invented/coined by the article's creator or someone they know, and does not indicate why its subject is important or significant.
I think its fairly objective, uncontestable, covers material that we see with some frequency, and is nonredundant with any existing criterion.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 00:02, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
An article whose subject matter appears to have been created by the author or an acquaintance thereof, with no encyclopedic merit, no notability, and which fails to meet any of the other criteria for inclusion.
This sums it up in a pretty general way. Since speedy deletion is an admin/bureaucrat task, it just needs to be known to those groups that this is for articles that are truly "out there" with no hopes of ever meriting an article on wikipedia (Barring some unforeseen explosion in its popularity, but wikipedia is not a crystal ball) --
ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ
τ
¢ 03:05, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Unfortunately, but not surprisingly, this discussion shows no more sign of heading towards a consensus than other discussions on the same or almost the same topic. However, is there any chance of a consensus for things which are self-avowedly WP:MADEUP? I take the quote "self-avowedly WP:MADEUP " from Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/What_The_Googlies: that article was deleted with the comment "None of the criteria for speedy deletion quite apply, but with such a strong and obvious consensus WP:SNOW very much does". I am sure many of us have seen articles which actually say words to the effect of "my friend and I have just made this up" being debated on AfD, which is a total waste of time as they are blatant snowballs. Surely, surely, when an article's author actually admits it is made up it can be summarily deleted, without wasting everyone's time. No? JamesBWatson ( talk) 13:36, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I would like to propose either a new criterior, A10, or an extension of A3 to allow very short articles that do nothing but define their title to qualify. For example, Tork currently has the content "Tork is a racing video game". This has context and so isn't A1 speediable, and it isn't just a rephrasing of the title so it doesn't qualify under A3. However it doesn't give any useful information to help others find any sources for it. Adding any of "made by Company X", "released in 1999", "that won an award", "for the Sega Megadrive", etc, would move it out of this category as it gives others something to work with to see if it is notable or not.
Also covered would be neologism entries that offer nothing but a definition - "Spoinkle is a word that means glittery spaghetti", "A verk is a squeaky video". Ones that offered more, e.g. history, who created it, why it might be notable, anything that is or might possibly be something other than a definition of the article title, would not qualify.
My intention is to catch those articles that meet the spirit of A1 and A3 but meet the letter of neither. Thryduulf ( talk) 23:33, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
For example, personally, I translate things from other Wikipedias. They're mostly biographies. A lot of the time, I'll create the page and it'll say something like "Catherine Brechignac is a French physicist", and then it'll stay like that while I translate the next few paragraphs (which might be a little while, if I've got to look technical words up in a foreign-language dictionary).
Now, personally, I don't tend to have problems with CSD patrollers doing that, but only because I got a helpful person at the templates page to create {{ beingtranslated}} for me which keeps them away. For a newer editor, speedy deletion of good faith articles under construction can be a real problem.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 23:41, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
tork "video game" racing
would find sources for expansion. Even "billy" might be easily found if he is a famous panda.--
Fuhghettaboutit (
talk) 02:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
It looks like this discussion got buried under the other discussions and was archived. Is there any opposition to removing the 7-day limit for resized non-free images? --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 ( talk • contrib) 22:40, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
(undent) I originally proposed this, and still support removing the requirement. Jheald, have there been any other cases where an image rescaling has been controversial enough to be taken to DRV? Admins can use their own judgment, virtually all of these are completely uncontroversial (e.g., the infobox images that Nehrams2020 mentioned), and the pages are already categorized into Category:Non-free Wikipedia file size reduction request; if someone disputes the resizing, why can't they do it before the image is actually resized? Besides, in most cases admins should be reasonable to reconsider an undeletion request without going through the drama of DRV... personally, DRV would only be needed in the most exceptional of circumstances now with this form of deletion. My final question, and probably the most important of these, is this: How many times has the image's waiting for seven days caused someone to remove the tag before deletion? – Drilnoth ( T • C • L) 01:22, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Okay, are there any other opinions on either side? There is currently only three people with thoughts on keeping/removing the limit. It would be beneficial to hear a few others' thoughts before this gets buried again. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 ( talk • contrib) 18:46, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Since there's been some disagreement above on whether it's ever appropriate to do an IAR speedy, I'll throw Iran issues out as a candidate. Would you speedy this? Under what criteria? Is IAR appropriate?
Personally, I'm torn. I'm not a fan of people having a free pass on a soapbox for 7 days. But one person's soapbox is another person's insightful critique. I'm also leery of slippery slopes.-- Fabrictramp | talk to me 17:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
One can discuss the applicability of the following criteria:
-- Avi ( talk) 18:21, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
It was a Tuesday. ;)— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 19:29, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Take a look at this: How to dominate at ludo. It's snowing right now at AfD. We should definitely find a clear way to write a CSD for junk like this or Religion against sea swimmers (see above). -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 23:48, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
"But one person's soapbox is another person's insightful critique. I'm also leery of slippery slopes.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 17:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)"
I think the speedy deletions community (the fact that it is a community surprised me when I learned of it) may be entering an era of respectability. It has now been a year since the last time I saw an article speedily deleted on the grounds that it was about mathematics. That happened daily for about six weeks in February and March of 2008, and the number of such incidents in 2007 was fairly large (In April 2007, Jeffrey Adams (mathematician) was speedied on the ostensible grounds of no assertion of notability even though it explicitly said he led the E8 project, and linked to the article about it. That should be enough even if the New York Times hadn't devoted a full page-and-a-half to the project the previous month.)
I always thought it ought to be possible to run speedy deletions in a respectable manner rather than the way it was being done, where most people first found out that speedy exists from incidents like those. Michael Hardy ( talk) 23:43, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
The mention of E8 is an assertion of notability, and although it may be cryptic to lay readers, nonetheless if it's linked to, then its cryptic nature is only a deficiency in the way the article is written, calling for an improvement. That's never grounds for speedy deletion. Michael Hardy ( talk) 19:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
The A1 template reads "This page may meet Wikipedia’s criteria for speedy deletion as a very short article lacking sufficient context to identify the subject of the article", but the words "very short" appear only in the template and not in the criterion. And, amazingly, some editors manage to write quite long articles that lack enough context to be deleted citing A1. I haven't seen an A1 speedy delete being denied because the article wasn't "very short" but it seems inevitable.
Hairhorn (
talk) 13:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
What would people think of including the NOINDEX template in the CSD G10 template? That would make attack pages not be at risk of being indexed by google (and possibly included in a google cache) between when they've been marked and when an admin gets around to deleting them. I'm not in favor of adding this to the other CSD templates but given the serious nature of G10 material it seems like it might make sense in this case. JoshuaZ ( talk) 22:36, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
<!--hidden text here
, but <div id="copyvio" style="display:none;">
is what the copyvio template uses (I don't think the div id
is important, as it still blanks the text after it even if you use <div id="attack" style="display:none;">
, although I'm not sure what the div id
actually is?). I don't have a problem with using this on {{
Db-g10}}, although that would mean getting rid of the "please blank" notice, and possible replacing it with {{
courtesy-blanked}}. I support this. -
Kingpin
13 (
talk) 17:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
These conversations are about usernames rather than CSD, but some people watchlist this page and not WP:U who might want to know, so ... you might want to look at the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Username_policy#Wikipedia:Miscellany for_deletion.2FUser:Gavelclub and Wikipedia_talk:Username_policy#A tweak. There are two conversations going on at the same time; one is about tweaking uw-ublock to be a little shorter and more neutral, the other is about coming up with a short, specific, and neutrally-worded userwarning (currently stored at Template:Uw-shortublock) for those cases where there are no significant non-deleted edits (so that WP:CHU isn't a useful option). - Dank ( push to talk) 21:40, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
See Treirut. It is a drinking game made up 3 days ago. What category might apply? It is not a "person" or "web content". It is not an incoherent article, probably not a hoax and does not appear to be utter nonsense or a test page. Edison ( talk) 16:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Sorry about the confusion but I haven't actually checked all the changes to CSD in a bit (i.e. I'm a big rusty here). PROD is probably the right way to go in this but I still hold there are cases where IAR and common sense apply. In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have tagged it a CSD and just written an explanation that it is 100% against WP:NOT and deleted under that rationale. That being said, does the community still feel a stringent need to restore the page and make it go through PROD? Sasquatch t| c 19:18, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
WP:IAR deletion to not elevate process over substance;
Wikipedia is not for things made up one day and there is no possibility of this not being deleted through a more formal process.
" My question to you is, would this deletion be acceptable under IAR (why not, what harm does it cause ← actual questions); and do you think it is more or less okay that it was deleted under A7 rather than explicitly under IAR?--
Fuhghettaboutit (
talk) 23:04, 14 July 2009 (UTC)First, it can be used on the basis of a consensus. In other words, it's the provision that allows a local consensus (usually on a talk page or at an AfD) to suspend a global consensus (i.e. a guideline, or more rarely a policy) in the case of one particular article where it's in the encyclopaedia's interests to do so.
Second, it can be used as a WP:BRD: you do something, and if nobody reverts you, then what you've done is allowed to stand.
The problem with IAR speedy deletes is, there's no consensus as a basis for doing it, and no possibility to revert. In other words, it's a fait accompli on the basis of one person's judgment, and I can't for the life of me think of any circumstances in which deletion is so extremely urgent that speedy is necessary AND the deletion would not be covered under one of our existing grounds.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 12:52, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
My position is that an A7 deletion of that article would not be unreasonable. I don't agree with Fuhgettaboutit that A7 "manifestly" doesn't apply; I rather think it does. (No assertion of notability. I view the extension of A7 to include a game as within admin discretion.)
I see IAR as stronger than admin discretion — it's a deliberate decision, not just to interpret the rules in a particular way, but actively to disregard them.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 16:04, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
@S. Marshall. Okay I think we're on the same page now. Just understand that to many people, including myself, expanding A7 to cover things that are within its spirit but not within the stated list of topics it applies to, is the very definition and heart of IAR use. Perforce, when you say you can't envisage any circumstance where applying IAR to a speedy deletion would be acceptable, many people will understand this to include said expansion of A7 type of deletion you acknowledge you don't have a problem with, and thus take a different meaning from your words than you intend because you and they have a different understanding of what IAR means. So many misunderstanding and arguments stem from definitional disharmony that no one is aware is the real problem.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 18:02, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm thinking that A7 should be expanded to articles outside of the current set which the content indicates the subject is non notable, not just lacking notability information.-- Ipatrol ( talk) 16:57, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
I've received a request from an inactive user (not active in earnest since 2006, though she has returned as recently as December 2008 for brief spurts of involvement in projectspace discussions) to delete her user talk page and archives. I'm going to delete her archives under G7 (she archived by copying and pasting from her main talk page, which means that there's no history being lost), but I'm wondering about the user talk page proper. As I read it, U1 applies only to userspace and not user talk space, though I've often seen it (incorrectly, in my view) used for the latter. My strong inclination is to grant this request, but I'm leery of making potentially controversial out of process deletions, and I thought I'd ask people here what they thought first. Steve Smith ( talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:49, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
I closed the RfC, and removed the link from CSD. Summary:
We might want to incorporate some of this. M 21:59, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
There are a series of speedy deletion critera that state that deletion is to occur seven days following the addition of the template for whatever reason. This does not seem to be a speedy deletion to me. Why are they included?— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙) 08:02, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi there. I would like to propose a minor rewording of A7 that does not change it's scope:
“ | ... an organization (e.g. band, club, company, etc., except |
” |
I think this is useful to emphasize that A7 does exclude universities, colleges, etc. as well. Regards So Why 09:37, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Above discussion shows, why I proposed this change. "School" is a different thing depending on in which country you live. Is an adult education center a school? What about a community college? The proposed changed wording would make it clear that A7 excludes any educational institution, no matter if it is called a "school" where it is located at. As M points out, "going to school" can mean a different thing depending on location and context. Regards So Why 21:28, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Why are schools/educational institutions being given special treatment?— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙) 06:41, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Normally, when there is a spam userpage when the thing being promoted matches the username, db-spam and a spam username block are applied. However, to circumvent this, some users use an ordinary username and then add spam to their userpage. However, the pages are not always blatantly promotional and appear encyclopedic. Does db-spam apply here? Triplestop x3 01:55, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Does G8 or other criteria apply to the Talk page of redirected articles? After reading WP:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive199#admining help, I asked the deleting admin to restore a redirect's Talk page, but another user has objected. I looked through several of the most recent archives, finding only WT:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 30#Empty talk pages and speedy deletion.
The page in question is Talk:Kristi Yamaoka, which was deleted G8 when its article was redirected as the result of WP:Articles for deletion/Kristi Yamaoka (6th nomination). I would also like some clarifying input on the general case. Flatscan ( talk) 04:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
For what it's worth, deleting the talk pages of redirects even when the there was no significant history (only one revision) has caused controversy in the past. I believe Misza, DerHexer, and myself would all be familiar with this. -- MZMcBride ( talk) 16:52, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
I've been spending some time recently overhauling the skeletal 'DeleteQueue' extension in SVN. As the name implies, this is a framework for allowing the software to keep track of, and largely automate the process of, deletion processes on a wiki. There isn't much documentation around at the moment (doesn't help that the extension currently doesn't work); I've tried to explain the work at User:Happy-melon/DeleteQueue. I am also keen to get input from the community here about what we'd like to see in a queued deletion system, to ensure that it has the maximum possible flexibility and utility here. So if you have any thoughts or comments on such an extension, please do drop me a note over at User talk:Happy-melon/DeleteQueue. Happy‑ melon 16:00, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Twice in the last few weeks, I have seen a user create an article with a speedy deletion tag already on it, the latest case being Robert Onley. I assume this due to the user copy/pasting it after it was deleted once already. I figure if they haven't changed the article, indeed haven't even made an effort to remove the tag, it probably should just be left. (It seems fully justified in this case) But I'm left wondering about the user who did it. What do you say to someone who would do that? I wouldn't want to give them the idea that re-creating the exact same article without the tag is somehow an improvement... Beeblebrox ( talk) 04:26, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Many times we get articles coming in with text similar to "Mullamoo Smith is a famous ginger cat, born in 1995 to Jenny Walker" or similar. It would be nice if we could modify CSD A7 to include animals as well as humans, so that these articles can be deleted with-in policy. {{ Db-person}} could be changed to note this too. I think this is a good idea. Thoughts? - Kingpin 13 ( talk) 22:40, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Support specific animal. As long as this refers to a specific animal, like Johnny the dog, then I think A7 should apply. It should not however apply to species. It is a non-subjective criteria and there is no reason why Bill's article should be speedied, yet the article about his goldfish should have a 7 day debate. These articles are already speedied under A7, it would be only fitting that policy reflect this common practice. Chillum 15:09, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
It seems like there is generally support for this addition. We should agree upon the wording now. I see that people want to be sure it refers to individual animals and not species. I agree this is important. How about:
This is basically the same wording we have now with ", individual animal(not species)" wedged in. What do people think? Is this clear? Does it represent the consensus? Chillum 00:06, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Sorry to stir things up when I thought it was all more or less settled, but a thought has occurred to me. Thinking about Fuhghettaboutit's comments on "animals" rather than "animal" prompted me to imagine the following scenario: someone creates the article My hamsters, which says "I have two hamsters, Tom and Gemma, which I bought in a pet shop yesterday". Not an article about an individual animal, so not covered. Clearly this is against the spirit of the proposed wording, and personally I would regard this as such an obvious case for IAR that I would see no problem, but I can see some wikilawyers getting excited about this. So maybe "individual animals" would be better. Otherwise I would have agreed with Thryduulf that "an individual animal" fits better with "a real person". JamesBWatson ( talk) 10:41, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree the (not species) part does seem evident. I only added it because it seems everyone was very clear on that aspect. "No context" does not apply to articles with context, using it on the articles described will only sometimes be accurate. Otherwise you might as well use WP:CSD#IAR. Chillum 13:28, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
I must say I was rather annoyed today when I navigated to Lias and found a troll from a non-notable story was mentioned on that page, and the troll didn't even have an article. (Perhaps it was a WikiTroll?) There are certain individual animals, such as Lonesome George and Pierre the penguin who are celebrities and deserve their own articles, but nobody cares that I once had a sea monkey named Irvin.
Anyway perhaps the wording you're looking for is "animal with little or no notability to the public community unless it comprises a complete taxon". I'm not sure of a better way to put it. Bob the Wikipedian ( talk • contribs) 20:56, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
I have left notices about this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mammals, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Birds, and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Zoo and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Animal rights Clayoquot ( talk | contribs) 03:23, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
an article about an individual animal (e.g. a pet) that does not indicate the importance or significance of the subject.
--
Fuhghettaboutit (
talk) 05:05, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
I assume that "a real person (human or not)" is meant to be a joke, since nobody with a reasonable knowledge of English would think that "person" normally means anything else. However, the "being" suggestion appears to be be meant seriously. The only reason given, as far as I can see, is that "Replacing person with being would change A7 to include animals without making it more complex and it would be shorter". Trivially shorter, while much less readily understood. Clayoquot says "If an article consists of "Zoey is an elephant at the Elbonia Zoo." it would fall under the current A7 wording. To me, that indicates that the current wording of A7 is overly broad." Why? What is wrong with speedily deleting such a pointless article? "Zoey is a famous elephant at the Elbonia Zoo" would be enough to protect it from this criterion, since it is sufficient to claim importance, not justify the claim. Without even such a minimal a claim as that I cannot see why an article should not go at once. Then again, the suggestion of restricting the rule to pets would allow an article which simply said "Daisy is a cow in Mr Smith's field in Blobsville Kansas" to stand, which does not seem to me to be better than "Daisy is a cat in Mr Smith's house in Blobsville Kansas". The relevant part of the current wording is "An article about ... individual animal(s) ... that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant", which seems to me perfectly clear. JamesBWatson ( talk) 12:19, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
← I completely oppose the notion that being in a zoo is an assertion of importance or significance. A small zoo like Bristol Zoo has five gorillas [5] and many more penguins, and other small animals. Is each one of these really suitable as the subject of an individual article? If a particular zoo animal is more important than any other zoo animal (and undoubtedly some are) then it is fair that we require article authors to say this. Thryduulf ( talk) 21:12, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
A small point of technical accuracy in the proposed wording - instead of " species", we should say " taxon" ... species is only one taxonomic rank which editors may wish to write an article about. SP-KP ( talk) 23:23, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
This CSD template indicates that any file that's not an image or sound file should deleted. However, the upload screen rejects any of these types of files, so this criterion seems redundant, and could be depreceated. Any input on this? Thanks, -- 科学 高爾夫 迷 18:06, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Ugh, tough call. I think I should talk with the user, but should I speedy and then talk, or talk first? - Dank ( push to talk) 18:20, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
A few hours ago there was an incident that causes me quite a lot of Wikistress. I probably overreacted and demanded an apology at the village pump, but I think that the issue (and thus a lot of stress) could have been avoided, if these criteria would have been slightly more specific. Let me summarize what happened: I created an article on a notable academic, specifically referring to the appropriate guideline in the edit summary. I thought it would be sufficient to write: " Wilson Jeremiah Moses (b. 1942) is an African-American historian. He is Professor of American History at Pennsylvania State University.", to satisfy the notability conditions of the guidelines, and provide the link to Wilson J. Moses homepage at Penn State University, which should, of course, be a reliable source for the fact that he is a Professor there. However, not any Professor is notable, so probably I should have written that he is the "holder of the Walter L. Ferree professorship in the middle period of American History.", because a 'named chair' is criteria N. 5 of the notability criteria for academics , but I didn't do that because I couldn't figure out who Walter L. Ferree was. And anyway, with the next edit I added the list of works, including two published by Oxford University Press and two published by Cambridge University Press. However, another editor flagged the new article under CSD A7 after two minutes. I found this profoundly irritating, since even the very short article made a "credible claim of significance or importance", and I simply removed the tag. (I probably should just have added {{hangon}}, but, as I said, I was quite angry.) However, then the article was actually deleted right between two of my edits, when I was about to add that Wilson J. Moses was also, among other, a visiting professor at Harvard University. I really don't think that I need to put up with this, and simply recreated the article, since I had the edit window opened anyway. This issue has cleared now, but I think we can avoid such problems in the future by adding two simply sentences to the criteria:
The purpose of the criteria for speedy deletion is to make deletion discussions, and therefore Wikipedia, more efficient. However, in this case, the criteria achieved the contrary. I was about to quickly create a new article with the basic information on a notable academic (because I wanted to create the article quickly, I created it directly, instead of drafting it first), but immediately after I had started I had to deal with a nomination for speedy deletion. There probably are more than dozen or so articles on non-notable subjects created each day on Wikipedia, but unlike cases of vandalism, attack pages or similar, I don't see a problem if articles on non-notable subjects aren't deleted immediately. However, I see I huge problem when articles on notable subjects are immediately threatened with deletion. I was about to add this directly to the project page, after the sentence "To avoid speedy deletion, make sure that articles provide both content and context.", but then I thought that it would be more appropriate to discuss this first. Zara1709 ( talk) 19:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
As I wrote recently in an AfD, I think A7 should not be used for most academics: implicit in receiving a Ph.D. is that their research has some permanent significance, although usually not by itself enough to pass a full AfD. I would certainly have declined the speedy for this one. Regardless of that, some standards for overhasty tagging of new articles seem like a good idea. We encourage new-page patrollers to go from the back of the new-page queue rather than from the front, but maybe some more explicit standard would be helpful. If we do put in some sort of delay, though, it should not apply to G10. — David Eppstein ( talk) 20:34, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
First, I just notified the deleting admin of this discussion. Second, I agree with those above who indicated that this should not have been deleted A7. Would it survive an AFD in the state it was in? Certainly not. But the reason why we don't allow articles that assert significance/importance to be deleted is because there may be more to the story than the current version indicates. This should have been prodded or sent to AfD, not speedily deleted.--- Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 21:27, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
There are clear differences between articles that say Foo F. Bar is a professor known for his achievements in sociology and Jane F. Doe is my sister. She is awesome or The Wikipedians is a band. They are awesome. A7 is supposed to be designed for those latter two examples that I have mentioned (and which I run into from time to time when patrolling) as opposed to the first example; the first example presents some assertion of notability, while the last two do not. That's where I believe people trip up a lot when it comes to tagging as A7. I think we'd we doing a disservice to those clear cases out there if we were forced to wait a certain amount of time before anything could be done. MuZemike 06:20, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
I found myself creating articles in single edits of ~5k bytes ( example) rather than building them slowly, using {{ inuse}} or {{ beingtranslated}} templates to keep the speedy deletion people at bay, or building in my sandbox rather than the article space—in other words, tricks to placate the new pages patrollers while writing. It was a little inconvenient even for someone who understands CSD, and I can't help thinking how hard it would be for someone new.
I also discovered Taukkyan Roadblock, which is (today) a perfectly accurate article, but when I first read it, was a hoax (admins will be able to see the history, I think). And I know how it slipped through the new pages patrol: it looked good. Infobox, broken into headings, it looked like something written by an experienced Wikipedian. So whoever looked at it didn't bother doing the checks.
I suppose what this discussion is coming to, is that new pages patrollers often don't check things. They aren't looking to see whether a good-faith article in construction could be sourced, and they aren't looking at whether a bad-faith article created in a single click is sourced. A very cynical part of me thinks this might be because the kind of people who check sources are working in the article space rather than at new pages patrol.
Instinct says that the new pages patrollers themselves aren't going to learn to check sources. New pages patrol is a speed game where the quickest trigger finger wins the prize. Which means that structurally, the onus is going to remain on the CSD-reviewing admin to look at sources. (If an admin can't be trusted to check sources, we're sunk.)
Given our current low ratio of admins to patrollers and editors, though, it's no wonder that some stuff that shouldn't be speedied, is, and some stuff that should be speedied, isn't.
So, let's promote a thousand trustworthy admins tomorrow and solve the problem. Sound good? :)— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 22:56, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Can we make a rule that says you have to write and source twenty articles before you're allowed to be a new pages patroller?— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 23:06, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Another thought on how to do achieve that tags are not visible too soon after creation, although this would require a new feature for the software: If we could get a dev to create a new
magic word called {{CREATIONTIMESTAMP}}
, we could change the templates so that they will only show on the page and in
CAT:CSD if the difference between this timestamp (i.e. the time and date of the page creation) and the current time is > 30 minutes. This way pages could still be tagged by overhasty taggers but the page creator will not see the tag or risk deletion within this time. And this way an exception could be made for {{
db-attack}}. Only downside I can see is that the creator might not be able to {{
hangon}} the page if they do not see the page but taggers are usually reminded to notify the creator and we could just tweak the notification template to reflect on the delay. What do you think? Regards
So
Why 06:17, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to propose adding obvious neologisms and stuff made up one day as a criteria for speedy deletion. This would be a more accurate reason for deletion than G1 (Patent nonsense). I've noticed an increase in these kind of articles over the past few months. In any hour I new page patrol, I generally prod 2 or 3 articles. I'm trying to think of one that was improved to the point of notability and cant. Having this criteria as a tool would be helpful and save editors time in dealing with this kind of cruft.-- RadioFan ( talk) 16:37, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
By the way, if we did have such a speedy criterion, I'd want it to apply only in cases (1) where the article consists only of a dictionary definition, (2) where the article lists no reliable sources for the use of the term, and (3) where it is not possible to find (e.g. by Google) any evidence of widespread or significant use of the term. So I'd think of these articles as not just failing WP:NOT, but also WP:N and WP:V. But for (2), the urban dictionary web site (or encyclopedia dramatica, etc) doesn't count as a reliable source, of course. — David Eppstein ( talk) 19:07, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Fuhghettaboutit says "many neologism state that they are newly created", and proposes a compromise CSD for "An article on a thing (word, phrase, game, ceremony, philosophy, religion, etc.), which indicates that it was invented/coined by the article's creator or someone they know, and does not indicate why its subject is important or significant". This reminds me of an AfD discussion I took place in recently where the article explicitly stated that its subject was little known and had not received media attention (or something to that effect: I forget the exact wording). More than one contributor to the AfD said that the article was in effect declaring its own lack of notability. Is there a case for, rather than a CSD for neologisms, a CSD for "articles which themselves state that they do not satisfy Wikipedia's criterion for inclusion"? (It might need rewording, but that is the idea.) This would cover the case I mentioned and also the sort of pages which Fuhghettaboutit referred to; however, it would avoid catching the type of case which DGG refers to, where what looks like a neologism turns out on investigation not to be one. On the face of it there would be a catch: if I want an article deleted I just add a sentence saying it is not notable, and propose it for speedy deletion. However, I don't see that as a serious problem: admins could presumably be expected to have the intelligence to see past that, and the instructions for this CSD could explicitly cover this. Any thoughts? JamesBWatson ( talk) 09:39, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | ← | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | Archive 36 | Archive 37 | → | Archive 40 |
Just got this on my talk page:
Thoughts? Is an assertion that an album will be released in late 2009 the same as an assertion of current notability? And should we check with an admin who declined a speedy before voting for speedy at an AfD? - Dank ( push to talk) 14:23, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps not but maybe the people who brought us per-page edit notices can add a similar "delete notice" feature to reduce the most serious mistakes. — CharlotteWebb 15:33, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
I propose adding somewhere, probably at WP:CSD, a recommendation to add the {{notenglish|[correct language]}} template to any foreign-language article tagged for CSD, for languages that Google handles well. (You'll know if it's one of the others, Google will warn you.) There are pages that will attempt to figure out the language and translate, so it's not hard to do. CSD is a community process, and when only a few people can read the article, and the rest are either skipping the article or using different translation engines, then people are looking at different texts, and may come to different conclusions. - Dank ( push to talk) 16:52, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Total licensing; it's an argument about what G11 means. - Dank ( push to talk) 18:03, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
At least one editor ( Aleenf1 ( talk · contribs)) is periodically tagging talk pages without corresponding articles for G8, thus increasing the backlog in CAT:CSD significantly. I am wondering, what others think about this behvaior. Is it a good thing because it identifies pages in need of deletion or a bad thing because it floods CAT:CSD with pages where immediate deletion is not needed, thus distracting admins from pages that do? Regards So Why 12:07, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
In case someone edits it, the current version is "Weihenstephaner Hefe Weissbier German hefe weissbier Soft malt, with hints of carnation, coriander and banana. The Weihenstephaner Hefe Weissbier is brewed at the Bayerische Staatsbrauerei Weihenstephan in Freising, Oberbayern, Germany." I declined the db-nonsense and alerted the article creator and WP:BEER ... but suppose none of them come through? If an article appears as half-assed nonsense to many readers, even if in fact it's about a notable beer (there are lots of Google archive hits), should it be speedied? Although I personally don't care where we draw the line, I'd like to know where the line is. - Dank ( push to talk) 04:14, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
PROD it. Simple as that. Happy‑ melon 13:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
If a page gets speedy deleted (for example, A7) during an XFD discussion and then gets reposted in the same state, would G4 still apply? My reading of the criterion suggests that it wouldn't because the wording in G4 implicates that a full discussion resulting in a rough consensus for deletion has occurred (which if speedy deletion occurs during the XFD, that may not happen), and that criterion defends that consensus until another discussion occurs possibly changing that. MuZemike 02:10, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Just noticed this AFD close...
The result was Deleted as a hoax, with the power of AfD (as in, G4 if it reappears in the future)
The closer didn't cite a CSD criterion but being deleted as a "hoax" after 1 day suggests he was thinking "G3" and the closing statement seems to suggest that G4 would apply to future recreations. -- Ron Ritzman ( talk) 02:51, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Just deleted The Genius Series, which read:
I see articles like this deleted as A1, but I went with db-bio, on the theory that what's really going on here is that J.S. Alexander is asserting that he's a noted writer, even though he's not in the title. The same principle comes up occasionally with software; the company name will be plastered all over the article, and I get no Google hits for the company name. If an article looks like an attempt to make a non-notable company look notable, then it seems to me that that's probably exactly what it is, whether they put the company name in the title or not. Thoughts? - Dank ( push to talk) 16:34, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
In view of the examples shown during the discussion at the RfC: Even though the rule probably will not pass, we should be talking about setting up some system of routine review of deleted work, for the improvement of the encyclopedia by retrieving passable articles made by not just by those who know how to appeal, but by those who do not, and by those who may already have left. Of course, if this passes, we could do this too, but it would have a great deal more work to do. DGG ( talk) 17:02, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
I propose a new criteria be added to the list. If the subject of a biography of a living person article requests deletion, and that subject is of questionable notability, the article may be speedily deleted. Jehochman Talk 17:22, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
This happens once in awhile, but if anything, I think CSD T3 needs some amendment. Something, like this (new text in bold)
Templates that are not employed in any useful fashion after being tagged as such for seven days. This includes: substantial duplications of another template, hardcoded instances of another template where the same functionality could be provided by that other template, or navigation templates whose only other pages have either been merged into another article or deleted, and removal of the template would not effect navigation between any related articles
This happens alot with articles for television shows not notable enough to have stuff like this. ViperSnake151 Talk 19:38, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
I made a change here and self-reverted as a discussion is in order and WP:BOLD might not be the best call here. What I'm proposing is a change to G4 that makes it plain that we shouldn't speedy something when the policy/guideline that was cited as a deletion reason no longer applies. I don't really like my wording, and would appreciate all input. Hobit ( talk) 02:50, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
The other day, an article was created, the condition in which the article was created would not have passed an AFD. The article was nominated for CSD and then deleted. The article's creator contacted the deleting admin (who had gone offline) and then approached me about the article. I recreated it noting that it did not fit A7 or A3 (as it was deleted.) It was then taken to AFD. While the article would not have passed an AFD in its original shape, the article clearly does today. This is a perfect example of why the use of AFD is important to the project. It gives authors the chance to salvage articles that need help. It is why we should not delete the article because "we know it will be deleted anyways."--- I'm Spartacus! NO! I'm Spartacus! 04:58, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
The fact that it was improperly at AfD did result in the article being expanded, sources added, notability shown in spades; all good things. But that is besides the point. AfD is not an article expansion brigade. There are many thousands of subs-stubs sitting out there which are invalid speedies and in the same boat, i.e., they assert enough importance to not meet A7 and don't lack context, but do not meet notability standards by their current text but are notable. All of those thousands upon thousands of articles likewise need to be expanded, rewritten, sources found, etc. The same process this article went through could as well have been done to them. I think, thus, you're drawing a false conclusion from the good result. Any one of these articles can be made into a real article. AfD is not the process to obtain that end. Here, I'll give you an example. Let me go to the random article button. A few clicks later... Murrayonida and Eva García Pastor. Shall we take these to AfD to get them expanded? It would probably work but is the wrong way to go about it.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 13:45, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
The problem here is that it seems that people need to be threatened with deletion to fix articles. Alas some articles are probably brought to AFD with the intention that people who support the article will fix it and if not the nom rescinds the nomination, usually without fixing it themselves. AFD give a DEADLINE and encourages people to work. Of course that's not the intent of AFD, but is is frustrating how it seems to be the only thing that works.-- Ipatrol ( talk) 21:35, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I still think it's a terrible idea to take an article to AfD that isn't a valid AfD candidate, simply because you believe someone may retag. However, I have created a template to address the re-tagging itself in some measure: {{
oldcsd}}, takes two parameters, the second optional: 1) the CSD subsection (required), and 2) the reason for declining (optional). So, for example, {{oldcsd|A7|the article cites to reliable sources, which is an indication of importance}}
produces:
This article was tagged for speedy deletion under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion but a reviewing administrator or uninvolved experienced editor declined the request on the basis that: the article cites to reliable sources, which is an indication of importance. This article should not be tagged again for speedy deletion under the same criterion and, unless a valid, separate speedy deletion basis exists, further attempts at deleting this article should be made via the proposed deletion process (prod) if uncontroversial, or the article taken to articles for deletion (AfD) for debate on the merits. Note: this template should be removed once the associated article has survived an AfD debate; or has been significantly changed such that further speedy deletion requests are unlikely. |
-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 01:16, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
In addition to this, Dycedarg ( talk · contribs)'s bot could send notifications when a speedy is declined but later speedied under the same rationale, to the administrator who declined the initial tag (for review), and to the administrator who did the speedying (so he could consider undoing the speedy himself). -- causa sui talk 08:19, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
{{ Editprotected}} I'm putting this here because Template talk:Di-no permission-notice redirected me here. {{ Di-no permission-notice}} and {{ Di-no source no license-notice}} still talk about images only, the other two templates have already been changed to refer to files. Please do the same thing for these. Thanks and best regards, -- ChrisiPK ( talk) 02:01, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
I'd appreciate someone checking my logic on this one. My edit summary was: "Only one independent source in a local newspaper, no suggestion that other sources exist, and no additional significant hits at news.google.com/archivesearch. A7: does not indicate the importance or significance of the subject." - Dank ( push to talk) 16:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Followup question. Same issue, but a different article ( Webgistix) and now it's a small local newspaper, the Olean Times Herald (in the references section), that ran an article on the company. All of the 12 Google archives hits are press releases or similar. A7? - Dank ( push to talk) 03:53, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I'm confused. Last I knew all A7 required was an assertion of notability. The criterion specifically states that no actual reliable sources indicating notability are necessary, only that a credible assertion of notability must be made. Why are you running Google searches and checking sources? Isn't that what AFD is for?-- Dycedarg ж 04:19, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Repeat after me: A7 has nothing to do with notability. Thank you. -- NE2 04:38, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Your three criteria have nothing to do with A7 in letter or spirit. All A7 reqires is a lack of a statement like "my () is important". If I were a user and I created an article that was deleted due to failing to indicate sources exist, i'd complain. Read my lips: A7 has nothing to do with sources or notability. Your three criteria either demonstrate grave misunderstanding, or an attempt to rewrite the rulebook under the radar; both of which lead me to question your competence as an administrator. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.118.68.193 ( talk) 02:02, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
I just thought I would point out that this discussion is in the wrong place. This talk page is for discussion of possible changes to the associated project page, not for a general discussion of application of the policy given in that project page. Perhaps the Village Pump is the right place for such a discussion. JamesBWatson ( talk) 08:50, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Now that User:CSDCheckBot/log is being tested, we've got a tool to deal with the debate about db-nonsense. Full disclosure: my position is that deletion summaries are useful for communicating with editors, taggers and admins, and they should be optimized for that purpose; not everyone agrees. I still don't like using G1 at all as long as the various messages talk about "gibberish" and "nonsense". I would find it useful if the deletion summary said: "Content not suitable for an encyclopedia", and if it were used in cases where (like db-vandalism) it's apparent that the editor should have known better than to post that stuff, it's not just a case of fumbling around, but (unlike db-vandalism) we don't want a deletion summary that smacks them over the head. The (valid) counter-argument has always been that deleting admins are going to misapply G1 if it has a bland default deletion summary; but now we've got CSDCheckBot, and I'll be happy to keep an eye on odd applications of G1. - Dank ( push to talk) 15:56, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
The only content in Mexican Federal Highway 9 is the title, a rephrasing, and a translation to the source language. Does this qualify for criterion "A3", and why or why not? -- NE2 18:29, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Just notified the highway project of this discussion--- I'm Spartacus! NO! I'm Spartacus! 20:02, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
A3 goes on to say. "However, a very short article may be a valid stub if it has context, in which case it is not eligible for deletion under this criterion." I fail to see how this doesn't have context, and the quoted statement, starting with "however", tells us it doesn't matter if its a rephrasing of the title if it has context. We learn from this stub what it is called in Spanish, it's name in English, what it is and where it is (and that it is verifiable). It doesn't lack context.
Finally, we are here essentially on whether this meets the language of A3 but let's be clear. The speedy deletion criteria are not a mandate to delete if they are met. They state those occasions when speedy deletion is permissible. Just as I will IAR a neologism, "made up one day", I will decline a speedy where I think keeping it is the right thing or controversial or fails to meet the criterion stated or would hurt the encyclopedia, or would cause more drama than declining, and on and on. Speedy deletion (and tagging) should never be done reflexively.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 22:14, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
So perhaps this is going to be considered an aside, but it is mostly in response to the thoughts on keeping this article. So if I pick any street whatsoever, and then do an inline citation from a federal PDF to prove it exists, that somehow gives it merit enough even in the face that nothing is said about same road? This, to use a phrase, does not compute. -- Human.v2.0 ( talk) 02:03, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
This was tagged as db-spam, and I just deleted as db-bio. It's okay to delete as db-bio when the person's name is contained in the title, right? I know I could theoretically db-spam this one, but I'd rather not call the article "advertisement or promotional" ... I don't think this poor man who's established a $25000 scholarship in India Pakistan in his wife's name would understand why I'm accusing him of spam. Also, and I'd like feedback on one of my guiding principles: I think speedy deletion per db-spam serves an important function for the wikiprojects, discouraging people who are likely to soak up their time and offer nothing. The thing is, different wikiprojects have different tolerance levels for promotionalism; fashion and music editors tend not to think of a little promotionalism as a mark of the devil, but it tends to offend most academics, and I try to respect some of these differences. I don't think
WP:PAKISTAN would think of this article creator as one of the bad guys, so I decided to go the slightly more gentle route of db-bio, and leave him a nice note; there were only 2 minor Google hits, no Google archive hits, and no references. - Dank (
push to talk) 03:06, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
To get back to a general point ... are we agreed that the rules for db-spam vary a little depending on the type of article? I see a lot of music and software articles marked as db-spam ... but when I compare them to the music and software articles by new users that were not marked as spam, I see very little difference in the tone. Whether these articles get marked as db-spam seems to have a lot more to do with the personal distastes of the tagger. In practice, I generally A7 these if they're A7'able, and either prod them or add maintenance tags if they're not. - Dank ( push to talk) 16:36, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
If I'm not mistaken, most template talk pages can be deleted under {{ db-g6}} if they contain nothing useful (for example, a lone talk page header (like Template talk:Alicia Keys)). I say this because I remember it being discussed somewhere, and the fact that a lot of templates like these had their talk pages deleted. Was there a certain discussion where consensus was made to do this? — Σ xplicit 18:31, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
{{db-g6|wording=it is bluelinked for no reason, simply a talkheader. see [[Template:Talkheader]] usage notes}}
or something of the sort. –
xeno
talk 20:14, 7 June 2009 (UTC)Ah, thanks for the note, Xeno. And yes, I specifically saw you delete a handful, MBizanz. I just wanted to make sure, as I found nothing to back up my argument when I searched. Thanks, both of you. — Σ xplicit 20:20, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Several times I've found templates that consist entirely of red links because their parent articles have been deleted. I've never had any trouble getting these deleted via G8, but I think it would be better to make a new subset of G8 that includes something like "templates consisting entirely of links to nonexistant or deleted articles, with no transclusions." Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ( Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 00:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
The more I look at G11 the more I have a problem with it. I personally avoid G11 like the plague because I find the criteria to be too vague and undefined. Today I've run into two articles at AFD where people are advocating G11 deletions, but in both cases I completely disagree with the rationale. Criteria 1 says that the criteria should be objective, most reasonable people should be able to agree whether an article meets the criterion. Often this requires making the criterion very specific. I don't find this to be the case with many articles. Simply listing the products/services is not advertising, which is how many people seem to view the criteria. Criteria 2 says that the criteria should be uncontestable: it must be the case that almost all articles that could be deleted using the rule, should be deleted, according to general consensus. CSD criteria should only cover situations where there is a strong precedent for deletion. Don't forget that a rule may be used in a way you don't expect if not carefully worded. I don't find this to be the case with a lot of the articles that I review while monitoring G11 nominations. Most of the time when I see an article labeled G11, I think that the article should be worked on/improved, but is not so irrideemable as to be unworkable. The only time I personally delete G11 articles is if the article is so blatant in making claims such as "we are the best provider of" or "our experts are the leading." Cases where the article is clearly written by somebody in PR and almost definitely a copyvio! If it doesn't have that copyvio feel to it, I'd rather leave it at AFD. In short, the line between too spammy and a decent start is too murky when dealing with G11. G11 fails two of the four criteria necessary for a Speedy Deletion Criteria!--- I'm Spartacus! NO! I'm Spartacus! 18:37, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I support retention of G11. Not all G11 = G12, some is uniquly tailored to the wiki. I think that an article does not have to openly sell something to be spam. An ad or press release may simply get people interested or be used to build off other ad campagins. The reason spam is a CSD is that it's a blatent abuse of the site. By creating a piece of spam, the account has already demonstrated "Evedence to the contrary," invalidating AGF. Therefore, deletion of the article and driving off of the user is warrented. -- Ipatrol ( talk) 02:10, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
I think the key point here is that the original creators of advertising in articles' clothing are always welcome to rewrite their content and resubmit it in a more acceptable form. Advertising copy is rarely a good starting point for an article about a corporation or product, and more often than not articles that get G11ed are verbatim copies of press release or annual report boilerplate. The presence of G11 puts the responsibility for cleaning up the mess on the original submitters of content, where I believe it belongs. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 23:21, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
An apparent policy on this page includes this:
I say "apparent" because this apparent policy was created four years (and two months) ago without proper public discussion and consensus, by people who denied the existence of those who disagreed.
In the interests of morality we should remember from time to time that this "policy" was not created honestly.
I've recently written to Brion Vibber about bug #378 and re-opened it. That bug makes links to redirects with non-existent targets appear as blue links rather than as red links.
If that bug does get fixed (some day?) I will propose abolition of the destructive (apparent) policy against pre-emptive redirects. Michael Hardy ( talk) 00:04, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
You're mistaken. If an article links to a redirect with a non-existent target, then the link in the article appears as a blue link. If the bug gets fixed, it will appear as a red link. Michael Hardy ( talk) 16:18, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure whether it was this page or the WP:Redirects, but there was a time when policies recognized the legitimacy of pre-emptive redirects. Discussions then took place not on the policy's talk page, but through other channels, and it was repeatedly denied that there could be any reason for wanting pre-emptive redirects, by people to whom it had been patiently explained why pre-emptive redirects are valuable.
And, please: The criterion was added. Or the criteria were added. Michael Hardy ( talk) 16:17, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Prior to Angela's edit adding redirects to empty pages to the CSD, such redirects were being deleted routinely under the aegis of the "no context" criterion. Her edit codified existing practice. While I think the CSD is valuable, I would like to hear more about Michael Hardy's suggestion that redirects to nonexistent articles may be useful. It seems to me that such discussion probably belongs elsewhere, with the CSD updated as necessary once a decision is made. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 23:35, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to nail down how we feel about apparent essays and WP:OR that comes across as childish. We don't have 100% agreement, but we've got consensus something along these lines, I think. There's no "right to speedy" and no CSD criterion for essays. Nevertheless, 90% of them get speedied, because people are a little tougher applying the other criteria to this stuff:
Bottom line: I don't wanna do it. All first-time articles for performers say the performers are great; if I delete the articles that say the performers are really, really great, and keep the ones that only say they're great, I don't think I'm performing any useful sorting service to Wikipedia. I typically decline with an edit summary something like, "Declining band-related {{ db-spam}} speedy deletion, adding {{ advert}}. For first-time articles about performers (which are usually promotional), try discussing with a wikiproject, rewriting, WP:PROD, or WP:AfD". Thoughts? - Dank ( push to talk) 22:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Okay, I have just made what I believe is an inherently non-controversial change to A7. Of course, there is no such thing as an uncontroversial change to A7, so I am posting a rationale here, pending reversion of my change. And as we all know, after "B" and "R", comes "D".
I will refer to "claim of significance or importance" simply as "claim".
Q: What exactly is changed?
A: While the old wording made it clear that A7 does not apply to articles that make any credible "claim", the new wording says that A7 only applies to articles which make no credible "claim". It's a negation, of sorts.
(Diff)
Q: So what difference does that make?
A: The old wording didn't explicitly state whether A7 could be applied to articles with a clearly non-credible claim. The new wording makes it clear that A7 can in fact be applied to such articles. Articles judged against A7 can be roughly divided into three categories:
From A7, one can easily deduce that #1 articles may be deleted. It may be strongly implied that #2 are eligible as well, but not explicitly stated. It is also clear that #3 articles may not be deleted (and the change does not attempt to remedy that in any way!)
Q: Is this a sneak attempt at broadening/narrowing the scope of A7?
A: No. The old wording was added back in 2006 to explicitly allow the common practice of deleting articles containing claims which no one would deem credible.
"he also has x-ray vision" was used as an example. And from my experience this is how A7 is being enforced in practice. Ridiculous claims that no one would deem credible (in the same vein as G3-able hoaxes) are disregarded. I therefore think that the change better reflects current practice, and the original intent of the clause.
"Q": This is just common sense, there is no need for further complication of the policy.
A+Q: That's a reasonable point of view, but the change does not make the policy more complicated or detailed. At the same time, it resolves what may be conceived as a slight ambiguity, so what's the harm?
decltype ( talk) 17:52, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I like the new version. I think the positive wording is clearer. If there are difficulties with it, we'll see as they develop. DGG ( talk) 03:29, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Hi,
There's a discussion underway at wikiproject copyright cleanup about articles which have been started as copyvios but later rewritten or stubified to a non-infringing status. For cases where an admin is investigating a report, they have the means to remove the infringing past from the article's history, or simply delete the entire article and start over. Non-admins however do not have that possibility. That either leaves G12 for content which is no longer infringing, not exactly a suitable solution, or leaving it, something which is currently within practice and policy but still not really ideal.
In order to give non-admin copyright investigators a tool to deal with such cases, one idea would be to expand G6 to a new type, history purge. This would enable us to flag an article which we found salvaged or stubified ourselves for final cleanup without clogging up WP:CP further or trying to get hold of the relatively few admins active at WP:COPYCLEAN to sort it for us.
The counter argument would of course be to simply tag G12, wait until the article gets deleted and start over. This is however a bit unpractical, in particular when working down eg the backlog at WP:SCV - in general we'd investigate one article, take the appropriate measures, perform some article actions and then move on to the next article on the list. Keeping track separately of articles we tag for G12 with the intent to rewrite them later will eventually become complicated, doesn't prevent the re-creation of the same article back in an infringing state before we can recreate a non-infringing one (whereas the presence of a modified article is probably not only a good safeguard against that, it also leaves a non-infringing version to revert to if needed later on), or loses GFDL contrib history in case the stubification was made by others before we investigated.
The tag would by default indicate that the history up to the present revision is to be purged (stubification by investigator) or the diff prior to which the purge should occur (stubification by others).
Thoughts? MLauba ( talk) 22:48, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to immediately caveat this with a warning that I have not ironed out or thought through the implementation details of this proposal. I can see some issues that this solves, and some issues that it creates. Bear with me, and consider this a start for some pondering that might lead to a proposal, rather than being a proposal in of itself.
Some of the issues that I see raised frequently over CSDs are the risk of driving away new contributors and the fact that article creators may find their work tagged within seconds of creation because they build it up in stages. The standard reply to this latter point (which I admit to using myself in the past) is that users should create pages in their userspace first and move them when ready, a subtlety that may be lost on very new contributors.
My basic idea is that for certain CSD criteria, the action of the reviewing administrator is not immediate deletion but userfication, with caveats. This is best illustrated by an example: An article is created that might be viewed as CSD A7. It is tagged as such by a new page patroller, and an admin reviews it and asserts that it meets the criteria. The admin then moves the article somewhere - I am suggested userspace, but a separate, temporary holding area could be created. The article creator is notified, and the article tagged somehow for further review after a fixed period of time (place it in a category, remove it, place it is a Wikipedia space subpage and move-protect it so that it can't be pushed into mainspace unilaterally). If it is sufficiently improved that it no longer meets the criteria, it can be moved back to the mainspace; if not, it is deleted.
The advantages are:
The disadvantages:
I've only got these two disadvantages (I'm sure there are more), but I'm convinced that with discussion, we could work out a system where these are mitigated to the point where this system of moving articles to a holding pen with a delayed deletion is a net benefit. I know that this technically means they wouldn't be criteria for speedy deletion, but they would be criteria for uncontested deletion - in that, unlike a PROD, the article creator couldn't just remove the tag and ignore it.
Lots to discuss, anyway - please don't just support or oppose the above - I'm not interested in either being beaten down or having my ego stroked! :) I genuinely just want a discussion about the possibility of altering our system to overhaul our non-AfD deletion process (which may include amendments to our proposed deletion process) and make deletion seem less hasty and hostile than it currently seems to appear to our newer editors. Fritzpoll ( talk) 09:20, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
←Gigs, the links don't seem on-point. I don't know yet what solution Fritzpoll would consider ideal, but for the sake of counterargument, suppose we're talking about an additional tag that an admin could add to an article that's been tagged for speedy deletion, resulting in a bot userfying the article, leaving a message for the article creator: "An admin has requested that this article be moved to your own userspace temporarily to give you a chance to read WP:Your first article (or whatever). (For non-IPs) Please ask at WP:N? for help if that doesn't answer your questions; if the article isn't edited for one week, this bot will remove the article". You would think that that wouldn't help much ... surely they would edit just to stop the article destruction ... but in fact, 90% won't read anything and won't edit the article. Anything that reduces the workload by 90%, while avoiding the sometimes angry reaction to a quick deletion, might be helpful, even if this proposal winds up saving no articles at all. Btw, Fritzpoll, some discretion would be required for A7 articles; we don't want to be solicitous towards every creator of an article that gets tagged as A7; some of those articles have the same issues as db-spam articles. - Dank ( push to talk) 13:24, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
An interesting thing that comes up a number of times here is that in most cases, CSD does not actually create an obligation to delete. Though copyvios, spam, and attack pages are in fact required to be deleted as noted by the Wikimedia Foundation legal council, if a CSD article can be improved, anyone is free to do so. I once even rescued a partial copyvio. If an admin feels userfication is an appropriate alternative course of action, the admin can userfy most CSD pages. Therefore considering how bogged down this proposal has become with all the perennial debates and side propositions, I propose that we simply make an unofficial footnote that userfication is often a good alternative to deletion for most speedy criteria.-- Ipatrol ( talk) 01:16, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
This sets an instructional option for the admin which is sufficiently open that they can make a choice either way, the only real issue is a as already raised what happens in the long term to these articles if there is no further edits? Can we create a CSD option that says userfied csd article that hasnt been expanded since userfying. Gnan garra 07:25, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
What if we just made it easier to userfy, with some javascript to do all at the push of a button. I imagine a tab at the top "userfy" which moves the article to the creators userspace, notifies the creator, and then if the user is an admin, just deletes the redirect, if non-admin, tags speedy on cross space redirect. It would refuse to do this on any article that has significant contributions other than the original editor. What do you all think? Gigs ( talk) 16:44, 13 June 2009 (UTC) edited to simplify process 16:52, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
As pointed out above, we already have the ability to userfy, and now we have a kind offer of a tool to help. So we're left with the issue of what to do when the article isn't touched for xx days/weeks/months. Seems to me the options are:
For the last three options, it seems it would be helpful to have a category or bot listing that would let people find pages that need review. Thoughts?-- Fabrictramp | talk to me 20:11, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
So the concrete proposals I can glean from this are: Gigs has offered above to write a script making userfication easy. Fritzpoll has offered to write a bot to keep a central list of the userfied articles. After two months with no edits, any editor who wishes can send them to MfD. (If MfD starts to feel overloaded, the community can always look at a prod/speedy option.) Objections?-- Fabrictramp | talk to me 20:24, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello, There have been a few speedies of articles/images being discussed at XfD or DrV. Certainly in some cases that's needed (BLP issues, non-free stuff for example) but I'd like to propose that A) such a speedy should immediately be mentioned at the current discussion B) should be strongly discouraged unless there is an extremely pressing issue. Thoughts? Hobit ( talk) 23:55, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
This: [2] is the most recent case of this occurring. I guess I should have contacted the admin (who I know, respect, and supported for admin) but I wanted a more general policy solution rather than a 1 off. It has happened a few times recently. Hobit ( talk) 00:12, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
I guess what I want to know is if there is a guideline or policy about at least commenting at the XfD if you speedy something that is currently being discussed. If not, should there be? Hobit ( talk) 17:34, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Is there any technical barrier to placing noindexing (__NOINDEX__) in all of the csd tagging templates (and {{ hangon}} and {{ prod}} and {{ afd1}}) such that when placed those templates on a page, that page will no longer get indexed by Google and other search engines? If not, why wouldn't we want to do this? It seems to me so many apparent benefits would run from this. Just as an example it is likely to reduce the creation of some inappropriate content as there are some people that are aware that they are creating pages that won't last long but are hoping to get some 15 minutes of Google indexing fame out of creation. It would make attack pages and copyvios less likely to leave a weeks long trail in their wake of visibility outside of Wikipedia, even after deleted, for which there is always an increased risk of legal liability. There's more benefits I could list but I just wanted to broach the subject.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 09:56, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Raised at Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/Paid_editing#Judge_edits_independently_of_editors.3F. What is, precisely, the rationale behind G5? NVO ( talk) 13:08, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Since we cannot accept GFDL-only licensed text content now, I suggest we add an additional criteria or amend G12 to allow speedy deletion for this situation when the entire page consists of GFDL-only content:
Incompatible licensing, a page primarily consisting of text content that is only licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License and not licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike license at all as dictated by the terms of use, and has been tagged as such for 7 days. This does not apply to media files.
Any messages sent to users would provide appropriate instructions telling them to make sure they have OTRS permission for the content. There would also be a dated template similar to the ones used for stuff like no permission in the file namespace that it can be tagged with during the waiting period. The 7-day wait is to ensure that attempts to get the proper permission can be made. Something like this would be good, right? ViperSnake151 Talk 21:30, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I know that it may not make sense on the surface to remove a criteria that deletes something that is empty. The problem is that C1 is being used to bypass the process in WP:CFD. These are typically hard to catch especially since more admins don't take the time to see if the category was emptied out of process. This is not easy since there are no tools to make this easy to do. Some editors have found ways to use the google cache to get an older picture. But that still requires digging to find out why it was emptied. I suspect that most of these deletions are actually out of process so we could hold the admins doing the deletes accountable for out of process deletions. Clearly that is not my intent. I'd rather remove a deletion criteria that can cause well meaning admins to violate process. One editor recently admitted that they were using the C1 process to cleanup after page moves with the specific intent to avoid a full CfD discussion.
If we eliminate C1, it would need to be replaced with a speedy deletion somewhere in CfD. Most likely an addition to the speedy rename process that is there already.
I'm not ready to propose this quite yet, but just wanted to open a discussion to see how others feel. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:10, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
For the same reasons that RS has RSN, BLP has WP:BLPN, COI has WP:COIN, etc ... would the wiki esplode if we had a speedy deletion noticeboard? I've been asking questions about individual articles here, so far, but if I could go into greater detail and ask more questions, it would be helpful, although maybe too tedious for WT:CSD. If people drop by and comment, great, if they don't, then we shut it down and post the notices here instead. - Dank ( push to talk) 19:21, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Okay, first up is Früctan, this was just tagged and speedied as db-spam, here's the text:
Früctan
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Früctan- (frroo-ck-tahn) origin fructo, meaning fruit; as it is said to be the sweet fruit from the chicken Invented on the 19th of June 2009, Früctan is an extraordinary snack/treat which is quick and simple to make and not only provides intense flavour but also saves money. It is often made alongside meringue, as the recipe only requires the yolk of an egg. Früctan is a perfect snack as it takes only 8 minutes to prepare and 1 minute to cook. Can be served with golden-syrup, cream, raisins or even meringue. For the recipe, go to wiki-how. Creators: Alice Booth-Sheffield born 1993 Jessica Piette-Swiss born 1992 Experiences with Früctan: 'I smelled it from next door when Booth and Piette were making it for the first time- it reminded of the sweet hours of my childhood, when my mother would make meringue except that this smell had a new twist. When I finally tasted it, I knew that meringue would never be enough for me anymore. There had to be something more... And Früctan was that; exactly that.' anonamous |
FWIW, my vote would have been to speedy it, too, for the same reason I'd speedy anything by a first-time contributor ( User:Alicenjess in this case) that sounds like "It's so tasty, make it today!" But there's a reasonable counterargument that goes something like this: db-spam is for identifying those articles that either are highly likely to be promotional (for instance, if the username is the company name) or articles where you can't nail down the COI, but the language used is exactly the kind of language used if there were COI. If an innocent first-time contributor wanders by some company's website, copies their promotional brochure, re-writes it just enough to avoid G12, and posts it, then db-spam is fine, in general. So ... what person, business, product, or ideology was this article promoting? The ideology of meringue-based cooking? Are they trying to sell eggs for the Dairy Council? They didn't give the link to wiki-how, but if this really was invented 2 days ago, then it hasn't had time to show up in a cookbook that they might be trying to sell. This is probably WP:NFT, but what's it promoting? - Dank ( push to talk) 20:26, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
[This space intentionally left blank]
Dead Man's Party (Six Flags Great Adventure)
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Dead Man's Party is a musical theater production at Six Flags Great Adventure in Jackson, New Jersey. It is hands down the best yearly attraction act the park which draws crowds of hundreds of people several times daily during the annual Six Flags Fright Fest. The cast and crew do a great job and the performance is entertaining and consistently well done. It is about 25 minutes long.
1st Thriller - Micheal Jackson 2nd Ramalama - Roisin Murphy 3rd Dead Man's Party - Oingo Boingo 4th Meet the Creeper - Rob Zombie 5th Halloween - Aqua 6th Phantom of the Opera - Nightwish 7th No One Lives Forever - Oingo Boingo 8th Ballroom Blitz - Sweet |
I deleted per db-org instead of the suggested db-spam ... agreed? If someone writes about something they enjoy, and they don't use language that's right out of the brochure or sounds like it could be, then that's not considered promotional enough for db-spam ... even if they are really enthusiastic. Another factor in declining the db-spam was that the article creator had made a few edits to unrelated articles. - Dank ( push to talk) 22:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
I have a pair of questions about the CSD criteria for deleting file:
Thanks! – Drilnoth ( T • C • L) 14:44, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
Should rescaled fair-use images need to be kept for at least 7 days before the larger version can be deleted?
I notice that CSD U1 and G7 is similar. While G7 requires good faith/blanking, U1 does not. Is both same? The Junk Police ( reports| works) 04:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
It's been brought to my attention that there's nothing in the actual CSD policy to prevent the entire speedy deletion process being implemented by one person. In other words, as the policy's presently written, the tagger and the deleting admin could be the same person. This strikes me as potentially very problematic.
I agree with Uninvited Company when he says that CSD is increasingly becoming the deletion policy of the project, and I'm concerned that the whole thing can be done by one person. The potential for error there is too high.
I propose a change in the wording of the policy, such that the tagger and the deleter should be two separate people.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 18:27, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Personally I can sympathise with the use of one-pair-of-eyes speedy for attack pages, copyvios, certain BLP issues, or other matters where speedy deletion is clearly essential for defence of Wikipedia. If there's no potential harm to Wikipedia, then in my opinion the benefits of a second pair of eyes outweigh the potential damage-except for G7 and U1, where deletion is uncontroversial.
Accordingly, I'd frame a draft policy like this:
Extended content
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I realise this would be inconvenient for some of you, and I hope you can see the logic and the potential benefits even if you disagree.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 20:44, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
I have mixed feelings on this... I do think that we should have two sets of eyes on most deletions, but I'm not sure if I would go so far as to encapulate that in a policy/guideline. I do know that when I was looking at CSD's a lot of the problems I saw were from single eye deleters.--- Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 21:28, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
There is no requirement for tagging in the first place. The CSD criteria are only written for the admin who does the deletion; they were specifically chosen as situations where it is common for admins to delete things without discussion. Unless there is some evidence that there is a large number of incorrect deletions from some criteria (not just a large number of correct deletions), there is no reason to change our practice in this area. — Carl ( CBM · talk) 03:18, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
I was really looking for some kind of concession here, folks. Why not take a look at DRV, and read the reactions we see from new editors whose articles are deleted under CSD?
Part of the problem is that CSD is extremely bitey. What I'd like to be able to show these people is that we delete material on sight where there's a good case that it's harmful, but if it's not actively harmful, it takes more than one pair of eyes. And yes, I do understand why someone jaded from new pages patrolling might object to me coming up with an obstacle to their getting rid of the 37th high-school rock band with references from myspace and youtube that shows up that evening, but, there is a purpose to it.
I find the argument that "we trust admins" very weak, because it's circular. Adminship is becoming a bigger and bigger deal, and RFA's turning from the sublime to the ridiculous, for exactly this reason. And the proportion of active editors to active admins is rising up the sharp end of a very nasty exponential curve because of it.
We need to accept that admins are human and capable of making mistakes, and we need to recognise that mistakes involving the delete button are highly problematic because for every one we see at DRV, how many potentially excellent new editors who only need a bit of encouragement and guidance, are quitting the site in disgust?
Tony Fox also makes some good points above, which could benefit from more thought imo.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 21:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Yes, two people can make a mistake. But at least if there are two, there's been some kind of checking process, so when the complaints come to DRV later, we can point to that and make a convincing argument that the deletion wasn't completely arbitrary.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 22:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
It's apparent to me that this idea has support, but it does not appear to have enough support to incorporate as a policy. Accordingly, I intend to write an essay about it, which I'll mention here when it's complete.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 09:46, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Can an article talk page (eg one that contains only vandalism/nonsense, and has no other history) be nominated for speedy deletion? And if so, how? 58.8.15.76 ( talk) 16:29, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
This was tagged as db-spam, and for many taggers, this article seems like the essence of spam ... except that I don't think it is, looking at the creator's contributions. I downgraded to {{ prod-nn}} and added {{ advert}}. My take on db-spam is that there's something about it that makes me pretty sure that it was created by someone with WP:COI or someone who sounds like they have WP:COI. {{ Peacock}} language is much more common than articles worthy of db-spam, and deserves something more like a NERF clue-bat than a 10-pound hammer, IMO. - Dank ( push to talk) 20:44, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Although I thought G4 was worded pretty clearly, at Talk:Wikinfo an editor is insisting the only way G4 applies is if the new content is a literal copy - no changes whatsoever - of the deleted version. This is happening because he has looked up the dictionary definition of "copy". The way G4 has been applied for years is that the new version has to address reasons for deletion (assuming there was a deletion debate that deleted the page). This is really the only sensible way for G4 to work, otherwise people could just reword a bit so it's not literally a copy, then policy would demand a new XFD every time until someone just applied WP:IAR to the situation.
At any rate, I think this can all be fixed by changing the word "copy" to "recreation" - I suspect the word copy being there is just a legacy of a much older, more rigid CSD. So where it currently says:
I would like it to say:
If the interpretation is that an article has to literally be a letter-for-letter copy of the deleted one to qualify for G4, we might as well just remove the "and that any changes in the recreated page do not address the reasons for which the material was deleted" wording, as that's impossible if the article is a carbon copy.
I am not planning on advertising this proposal because I believe it's a minor wording change that reflects current practice anyway. -- Chiliad22 ( talk) 21:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
So make that two people, if you like. :)— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 22:07, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
The reason I added the text to the article Wikinfo is because it is a redirect and when I added the text I had no idea that it had been deleted. It was only when I went to add a comment to the talk page that I realised that the page had been deleted. I looked through six AfD's and as far as I can tell, there has never been a consensus to delete the page. The reason given in The sixth AFD was "Fails WP:WEB". An article on this topic is of direct benefit to out readers because somewhere between 100 and 200 articles have to attribute text to Wikinfo and as far as I can tell the issue was never raised during the Sixth AfD. I put it to the reader of this page that it is not unreasonable for a reader who sees an Wikipedia article attributing text to Wikinfo, to expect Wikipedia to have an entry on such an entity from which it has copied text! And as such an entry written under the Wikipedia policies of NPOV, it should be trustworthy. There are reliable sources around which can support the text I included as a stub (which cover V and OR). I did not include them with the text, which was a cut an past job from History of wikis#Development of wiki websites to the end of 2003, and I assumed as a stub there would be time to add them if anyone wanted to include a {{ fact}} template.
The G4 reason for the speedy deletion is to clean up the recreation of an article by the same editor or editors, just as the Wikipedia:Protection policy#Creation protection "can also prevent the creation of a page through the protection dialog. This is useful for articles that have been deleted but repeatedly recreated by an editor." In a case like this, were a new editor alters a redirect into an article and is not copying the old text, it is for an editor who objects not to to use the speedy deletion process but to go through the usual deletion process.
This is more than an argument over angels on a pinhead, because of the assumption of no change without a consensus. Suppose only the creator and the objector are involved in a dispute over the creation of a page, does a disinterested administrator close the page in favour of the current consensus? In which case depending on whether the process is an AfD or a CSD G4 will determine what the current consensus is.
The wording of G4 is quite adequate if it is meant to protect Wikipedia from the intent to circumvent a deletion (anyone who is familiar with speedy deletes will be familiar with the creation of articles by the same editors with either the same name or a slightly different one and the current wording covers those whack a rat situations). As it is currently worded it also stops an editor trying to use it to gain a procedural advantage as I described in the preceding paragraph, so I recommend that the wording it is not changed. -- PBS ( talk) 10:56, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
The criterion does not apply to any article that makes any credible claim of significance or importance even if the claim is not supported by a reliable source. If the claim's credibility is unclear, you can improve the article yourself, propose deletion, or list the article at articles for deletion.
I don't know if I'm understanding this right. So if someone makes creates an article about "John Doe", and makes the claim "John Doe ran to to the moon and back five times", you can't speedy it under A7? You have to prod it or afd it? Or is it just borderline claims that you can't speedy, that are plausible. The text doesn't seem to say specifically what to do with non credible claims. Fingerz On'Roids 11:49, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Two many negatives and conditionals in the qualifying language. It makes sense but it's very hard to parse what is meant. Why not make it a positive statements with the credibility aspect right up front: "...or web content that does not credibly indicate why its subject is important or significant
" (or possibly "plausibly"). I think this gets rid of the need for both qualifying later sentences, which are very confusing as written.--
162.83.162.35 (
talk) 13:41, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
I hope Calton will weigh in on this one. He tagged it as db-spam and I agreed, but I think some of you will probably disagree and I'd like to hear the arguments, please. This was the only contribution by this editor, and it read: "Ascii Fish, The Netherlands is an web development company which operates in The Netherlands, The Antilles and Aruba. Ascii Fish (or AsciiFish) is a small business company founded in 2009. The company's core business areas are web services, multimedia & graphic designs and Web project consulting." Apparently they're right about the size of the business; there wasn't even a Google hit on "ascii fish" "netherlands", and no news archive hits on "ascii fish" or "asciifish". The argument that this wasn't db-spam, I think, is that the language wasn't so promotional that it could have only come from one of the principals, or from someone using language that one of the principals would use. But it seems to me that's a technical argument; a better question to ask is: was it very likely to be one of the principles, someone who was only here to promote their stuff and not make any useful contributions to Wikipedia? I think that seems very likely: a company so small that no one seems to have heard of it, a business that's about "web development" (which greatly increases the odds that they're here to promote their stuff, the same as with articles from new contributers about a new public relations, advertising, or herbal viagra business), and no other contributions. The odds just seem tiny that this was created by someone who doesn't profit from this business, or that reasoning with them has any likelihood of turning them into a useful contributor. I would have used A7 if this had been in articlespace, but it wasn't. - Dank ( push to talk) 17:21, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Is there a speedy deletion criterion for uploading an inappropriate image? Bababababababababybel62 ( talk) 19:39, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Earlier today, an administrator declined two consecutive {{ db-nonsense}} tags on the grounds that the pages were in a foreign language, therefore exempt from G1. Now I agree with both of that administrator's assessments, but it reminded me of a case, some time ago, where I saw a listing at WP:PNT for a page in French, and, being a native French speaker, I looked at the page and deemed it to be a word salad that was worthy of the speediest G1 tagging. (The words were indeed French, but the sentence was nonsensical.) An administrator declined my tagging of that page, and only after I explained the situation on his talk page did he finally delete the page.
What I want to do here is not exactly a change of policy, new CSD criterion, or anything like that, but I want to implement a way of notifying a CSD-reviewing administrator that a certain foreign-language page has been deemed nonsensical even in its language, either through a template designed for that purpose, a parameter to the {{ db-nonsense}} tag, an accompanying tag, or any other solution one might propose.
Any ideas? -- Blanchardb - Me• MyEars• MyMouth- timed 15:05, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
<- I agree with this sentiment, in the rare case of a foreign-language G1, but I'd much prefer specifying this in an edit summary or using an Ø edit, rather than creating a page for this purpose only. Which makes me think: If it's at all translatable, it does not really fall under G1, does it? A1, G2, and G3 may be a better alternative. decltype ( talk) 13:09, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi. Yesterday an admin cleared a newly created article of copyright infringement because the source from which it was imported is licensed under GFDL. This matter was addressed with the specific admin, but I just figured it might be a good idea to remind everyone that we can no longer accept material that is solely licensed under GFDL. At minimum, it must be compatible with CC-By-SA, and GFDL is not. (See Wikimedia:Terms of Use.) -- Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Xeno has an objection that some standard links in cases of db-spam and near-db-spam are inappropriate, so I edited WP:WHYNOT, and I'm including that link in some cases where I speedy userpages and articles. It's intended to be a lot shorter (new contributors are rarely willing to read long pages) and a little more helpful and AGF'ing than WP:ADS, WP:PROMO and WP:COI (although it links to COI). Suggestions welcome. - Dank ( push to talk) 18:25, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Reading some very good comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Mojo-hustla led me to think carefully about the way we refer to "spam" in Wikipedia, and I found I was not happy about it. I myself have in the past tended to use the word "spam" rather freely in edit summaries, but I now think this is a mistake. There are many people who run perfectly respectful businesses, and would not dream of using spam in the real world, who come to Wikipedia, and, with the best of intentions, place publicity material here. Of course this reflects a failure to understand the nature of Wikipedia, but they are doing nothing which would be regarded as reprehensible in normal business practice. And what happens? They find themselves labelled as spammers. This does not give them a friendly welcome to Wikipedia, it does not assume good faith, and by seeming like an aggressive accusation it is not likely to encourrage them to take a cooperative line. I wonder whether the word "spam" should be removed altogether from Wikipedia: "db-spam" could perhaps be replaced with something like "db-promo". Likewise Wikipedia:Spam could be Wikipedia:PROMO, which at present is a redirect to a section of Wikipedia:Spam. I am also posting this comment to Wikipedia talk:Spam, as it is equally relevant there. I suggest if anyone has any response to offer that they should make it there rather than here: it would not be helpful having two discussions on the same topic. JamesBWatson ( talk) 19:14, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
This is an example of the kind of thing I think we we need a "blatantly WP:NFT" speedy for. It's not G1 (incoherent or gibberish), it's not really G3 (misinformation or hoax) which implies actual false statement or intent to deceive, it's not A1, A3 or A7 - but do we really have to give it seven days' exposure before it gets zapped? JohnCD ( talk) 13:00, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I just deleted it under the good ol' IAR criterion. Coming up with a criterion to describe that deletion might be fun. - GTBacchus( talk) 15:06, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
One idea: introduce a criterion for things that assert insignificance, along the lines of A7 (which covers articles that don't contain an assertion of significance). An article which effectively states "this was just made up" is asserting insignificance. Hut 8.5 19:06, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
It reminds me of the vandal, again very uncommon, who says this. I didn't hesitate to block that guy, nor to identify the reason as "vandalism". - GTBacchus( talk) 20:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
One of the drawbacks of using CSD:G3 on such articles is that calling something "vandalism" assumes bad faith. I wouldn't oppose a new CSD criterion for subjects that are "blatantly unverifiable" (ie an AGF variant of G3) but right now the best way to handle such cases is to take them to AFD but allow such debates to be closed early if it quickly becomes clear that other participants can't verify the subject either. That way if a newbie creates an article about a game played at their school but nobody else outside the school has ever heard of or a made up word, it can be quickly deleted without calling the newbie a vandal. -- Ron Ritzman ( talk) 02:54, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Pure vandalism or silliness. This includes blatant and obvious misinformation, redirects created by cleanup from page-move vandalism, blatant hoaxes and nonsensical and obviously non-encyclopedic pages.
An article that seeks to promote a subject that is clearly made up by the article's creator and which does not indicate why its subject might be important or significant. The criterion does not apply to any article that makes any credible claim of significance or importance even if the claim is not supported by a reliable source. If the claim's credibility is unclear, you can improve the article yourself, propose deletion, or list the article at articles for deletion.
However, I'm not sure that "what is the best wording for the proposed new rule?" is the right question: I think the question should be "is there a need for a new rule at all?". I am genuinely amazed to find that several contributors to this discussion do not regard a decision to deliberately put silly and frivolous material into Wikipedia as constituting bad faith, but, granted that that is the case, so that "vandalism" is out, there still seem to me to be other usable criteria. Firstly, DGG suggests A7 could be used, and I agree. Mazca says "I may have been tempted to push the boundaries very slightly and delete this under A7", but I don't see that any boundary pushing is needed: the article did not assert significance, and the article purported to be about an an organization, as it referred to named people who were supposed to organise the religion. I also see no problem with DGG's suggestion of using A1 (no context). The article threw names of people at us with no indication of who they were, and gave no indication as to when or where or under what circumstances the pretended religion was founded: I think there was no context given. In my opinion the fundamental problem here is trying to apply rules too rigidly. Whatever rules we have, and however we phrase them, there will be cases which, if we argue about the exact details of how to interpret the rules, will not be covered by them. If each time we come across such a case we sit around and discuss how to make a new rule (or modify an existing one) to cover it, we will not reduce the tendency for such awkward cases to arise, and we will make Wikipedia more awkward and cumbersome, more difficult to use, easier for people to twist around by finding some interpretation of some rule which fits their purpose. We all know that this article was so obviously rubbish that it needed to be deleted, and I would be prepared to bet that all or almost all of us would agree that it should have been speedily deleted (As expressed so succinctly by GTBacchus: "If there isn't a speedy criterion that covers this, it's just because we haven't written it down yet". We should not forget the fifth of the five pillars: Wikipedia does not have firm rules besides the five general principles presented here. Be bold in editing, moving, and modifying articles. If we all always remembered that, then we would not be wasting our time on this discussion: the criteria for deletion, like all Wikipedia policies and guidelines, are flexible, broad suggestions rather than exact rules, and it really is not worth arguing about whether this case exactly fits the letter of G3, A1, or A7. It clearly needs to be speedily deleted, and as long as it comes reasonably near to one or more of them, that is good enough: the article goes.
Finally, of the comments above which favour introducing a new criterion, the one with which I have most sympathy is mazca's in general it would be nice to have a criterion we can use for things that are blatantly unencyclopedic but are made in good faith through a misunderstanding of Wikipedia. Yes, it would be nice. However, in practice I think it would be impossible to make it have that effect without making it so broad as to create more problems than it would solve. Can you just imagine some of the things which would be seen by some people as unencyclopedic and as based on misunderstanding of Wikipedia? JamesBWatson ( talk) 03:40, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
The essay is drafted at User:S Marshall/Essay2.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 17:01, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't see that there are any cases where promotional material is directly harmful to Wikipedia, and nor do I see it as unreasonable to suggest that two pairs of eyes should be involved in such a deletion. I do realise it's inconvenient to those who're accustomed to going through Wikipedia deleting large tranches of material on their own authority, and I'm afraid that's exactly what I intended.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 15:48, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
You are welcome to edit the essay, Dank, even though it's in my userspace, and so is anyone else. It's not my intention to close off discussion, though I shall certainly continue to push for what I see as a commonsense result.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 17:19, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 22:49, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Could someone more knowledgeable on the policy clarify what is meant by "credible claim of significance or importance" in A7? Does this mean claims of meeting one of the notability guidelines, or does any credible claim of importance go? I'm confused because an article, Lewis The First, was deleted under A7 despite stating that that the subject had "gained a great following" and had "hit songs". The rationale was "No indication that the article may meet guidelines for inclusion". Is this appropriate use of A7? I'm mostly asking to clarify any misunderstandings I might have about the policy. The article probably would have been deleted anyway for not meeting WP:MUSICBIO. Thanks, Jafeluv ( talk) 22:00, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
It seems like that on the chart on the bottom of this page, Template:Db-hoax is missing, which should be part of the G3 criterion. Also, Template:Db-pagemove appears to qualify for G6, instead of G3, according to the template itself. Ydouthink90 ( talk) 21:31, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I've come across many articles on AfD that are illustrated with images. I propose to expand G8 as thus:
Any image that becomes orphaned as the result of an AfD can be deleted immediately (i.e. not listing on IfD or waiting seven days) if 1) it is a fair use logo that has no plausible use other than in the original deleted article; or 2) it is a picture whose primary subject is the subject of a deleted biographical article, who is not believed to be a Wikipedia user (in this case the user might want to put it on their userpage).
Any opinions? -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 18:16, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
If the image of the subject of the article is free, we should not speedy it. It may need to be moved to Commons (used eventually on this or other projects). It may illustrate something else, in addition to the subject of the deleted article. If somebody in the future, writes a proper article on the same topic, worthy of retention, the text can usually be re-written from scratch by anybody, but finding a new picture of a person can be very difficult, or impossible sometimes. It's generally not a easy thing, to just go out and create a new picture of somebody you don't know personally. I'm not saying all such images should be kept (here or on Commons), but they definately should not be speedied. As for the logo suggestion, it doesn't really matter either way (immediate or delayed deletion). -- Rob ( talk) 23:12, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I might be missing something obvious but should redirects from moving user pages to article space still exist? I'm under the impression the answer should be NO and therr should be a speedy for it. Duffbeerforme ( talk) 18:39, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
A lively discussion that could use more voices. - Dank ( push to talk) 23:20, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that there is no CSD that applies to articles that are complete BS, or neologisms, or "The cool idea my friends and I came up with at the bar". Any chance one can be added so that these obviously useless pages needn't clog up afd? -- ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 22:29, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I proposed some time ago (with little comment) the following criterion that covers a blend of WP:NFT material that would also rope in neo/proto-logisms:
An article on a thing (word, phrase, game, ceremony, philosophy, religion, etc.), which indicates that it was invented/coined by the article's creator or someone they know, and does not indicate why its subject is important or significant.
I think its fairly objective, uncontestable, covers material that we see with some frequency, and is nonredundant with any existing criterion.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 00:02, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
An article whose subject matter appears to have been created by the author or an acquaintance thereof, with no encyclopedic merit, no notability, and which fails to meet any of the other criteria for inclusion.
This sums it up in a pretty general way. Since speedy deletion is an admin/bureaucrat task, it just needs to be known to those groups that this is for articles that are truly "out there" with no hopes of ever meriting an article on wikipedia (Barring some unforeseen explosion in its popularity, but wikipedia is not a crystal ball) --
ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ
τ
¢ 03:05, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Unfortunately, but not surprisingly, this discussion shows no more sign of heading towards a consensus than other discussions on the same or almost the same topic. However, is there any chance of a consensus for things which are self-avowedly WP:MADEUP? I take the quote "self-avowedly WP:MADEUP " from Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/What_The_Googlies: that article was deleted with the comment "None of the criteria for speedy deletion quite apply, but with such a strong and obvious consensus WP:SNOW very much does". I am sure many of us have seen articles which actually say words to the effect of "my friend and I have just made this up" being debated on AfD, which is a total waste of time as they are blatant snowballs. Surely, surely, when an article's author actually admits it is made up it can be summarily deleted, without wasting everyone's time. No? JamesBWatson ( talk) 13:36, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I would like to propose either a new criterior, A10, or an extension of A3 to allow very short articles that do nothing but define their title to qualify. For example, Tork currently has the content "Tork is a racing video game". This has context and so isn't A1 speediable, and it isn't just a rephrasing of the title so it doesn't qualify under A3. However it doesn't give any useful information to help others find any sources for it. Adding any of "made by Company X", "released in 1999", "that won an award", "for the Sega Megadrive", etc, would move it out of this category as it gives others something to work with to see if it is notable or not.
Also covered would be neologism entries that offer nothing but a definition - "Spoinkle is a word that means glittery spaghetti", "A verk is a squeaky video". Ones that offered more, e.g. history, who created it, why it might be notable, anything that is or might possibly be something other than a definition of the article title, would not qualify.
My intention is to catch those articles that meet the spirit of A1 and A3 but meet the letter of neither. Thryduulf ( talk) 23:33, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
For example, personally, I translate things from other Wikipedias. They're mostly biographies. A lot of the time, I'll create the page and it'll say something like "Catherine Brechignac is a French physicist", and then it'll stay like that while I translate the next few paragraphs (which might be a little while, if I've got to look technical words up in a foreign-language dictionary).
Now, personally, I don't tend to have problems with CSD patrollers doing that, but only because I got a helpful person at the templates page to create {{ beingtranslated}} for me which keeps them away. For a newer editor, speedy deletion of good faith articles under construction can be a real problem.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 23:41, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
tork "video game" racing
would find sources for expansion. Even "billy" might be easily found if he is a famous panda.--
Fuhghettaboutit (
talk) 02:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
It looks like this discussion got buried under the other discussions and was archived. Is there any opposition to removing the 7-day limit for resized non-free images? --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 ( talk • contrib) 22:40, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
(undent) I originally proposed this, and still support removing the requirement. Jheald, have there been any other cases where an image rescaling has been controversial enough to be taken to DRV? Admins can use their own judgment, virtually all of these are completely uncontroversial (e.g., the infobox images that Nehrams2020 mentioned), and the pages are already categorized into Category:Non-free Wikipedia file size reduction request; if someone disputes the resizing, why can't they do it before the image is actually resized? Besides, in most cases admins should be reasonable to reconsider an undeletion request without going through the drama of DRV... personally, DRV would only be needed in the most exceptional of circumstances now with this form of deletion. My final question, and probably the most important of these, is this: How many times has the image's waiting for seven days caused someone to remove the tag before deletion? – Drilnoth ( T • C • L) 01:22, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Okay, are there any other opinions on either side? There is currently only three people with thoughts on keeping/removing the limit. It would be beneficial to hear a few others' thoughts before this gets buried again. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 ( talk • contrib) 18:46, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Since there's been some disagreement above on whether it's ever appropriate to do an IAR speedy, I'll throw Iran issues out as a candidate. Would you speedy this? Under what criteria? Is IAR appropriate?
Personally, I'm torn. I'm not a fan of people having a free pass on a soapbox for 7 days. But one person's soapbox is another person's insightful critique. I'm also leery of slippery slopes.-- Fabrictramp | talk to me 17:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
One can discuss the applicability of the following criteria:
-- Avi ( talk) 18:21, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
It was a Tuesday. ;)— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 19:29, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Take a look at this: How to dominate at ludo. It's snowing right now at AfD. We should definitely find a clear way to write a CSD for junk like this or Religion against sea swimmers (see above). -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 23:48, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
"But one person's soapbox is another person's insightful critique. I'm also leery of slippery slopes.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 17:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)"
I think the speedy deletions community (the fact that it is a community surprised me when I learned of it) may be entering an era of respectability. It has now been a year since the last time I saw an article speedily deleted on the grounds that it was about mathematics. That happened daily for about six weeks in February and March of 2008, and the number of such incidents in 2007 was fairly large (In April 2007, Jeffrey Adams (mathematician) was speedied on the ostensible grounds of no assertion of notability even though it explicitly said he led the E8 project, and linked to the article about it. That should be enough even if the New York Times hadn't devoted a full page-and-a-half to the project the previous month.)
I always thought it ought to be possible to run speedy deletions in a respectable manner rather than the way it was being done, where most people first found out that speedy exists from incidents like those. Michael Hardy ( talk) 23:43, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
The mention of E8 is an assertion of notability, and although it may be cryptic to lay readers, nonetheless if it's linked to, then its cryptic nature is only a deficiency in the way the article is written, calling for an improvement. That's never grounds for speedy deletion. Michael Hardy ( talk) 19:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
The A1 template reads "This page may meet Wikipedia’s criteria for speedy deletion as a very short article lacking sufficient context to identify the subject of the article", but the words "very short" appear only in the template and not in the criterion. And, amazingly, some editors manage to write quite long articles that lack enough context to be deleted citing A1. I haven't seen an A1 speedy delete being denied because the article wasn't "very short" but it seems inevitable.
Hairhorn (
talk) 13:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
What would people think of including the NOINDEX template in the CSD G10 template? That would make attack pages not be at risk of being indexed by google (and possibly included in a google cache) between when they've been marked and when an admin gets around to deleting them. I'm not in favor of adding this to the other CSD templates but given the serious nature of G10 material it seems like it might make sense in this case. JoshuaZ ( talk) 22:36, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
<!--hidden text here
, but <div id="copyvio" style="display:none;">
is what the copyvio template uses (I don't think the div id
is important, as it still blanks the text after it even if you use <div id="attack" style="display:none;">
, although I'm not sure what the div id
actually is?). I don't have a problem with using this on {{
Db-g10}}, although that would mean getting rid of the "please blank" notice, and possible replacing it with {{
courtesy-blanked}}. I support this. -
Kingpin
13 (
talk) 17:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
These conversations are about usernames rather than CSD, but some people watchlist this page and not WP:U who might want to know, so ... you might want to look at the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Username_policy#Wikipedia:Miscellany for_deletion.2FUser:Gavelclub and Wikipedia_talk:Username_policy#A tweak. There are two conversations going on at the same time; one is about tweaking uw-ublock to be a little shorter and more neutral, the other is about coming up with a short, specific, and neutrally-worded userwarning (currently stored at Template:Uw-shortublock) for those cases where there are no significant non-deleted edits (so that WP:CHU isn't a useful option). - Dank ( push to talk) 21:40, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
See Treirut. It is a drinking game made up 3 days ago. What category might apply? It is not a "person" or "web content". It is not an incoherent article, probably not a hoax and does not appear to be utter nonsense or a test page. Edison ( talk) 16:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Sorry about the confusion but I haven't actually checked all the changes to CSD in a bit (i.e. I'm a big rusty here). PROD is probably the right way to go in this but I still hold there are cases where IAR and common sense apply. In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have tagged it a CSD and just written an explanation that it is 100% against WP:NOT and deleted under that rationale. That being said, does the community still feel a stringent need to restore the page and make it go through PROD? Sasquatch t| c 19:18, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
WP:IAR deletion to not elevate process over substance;
Wikipedia is not for things made up one day and there is no possibility of this not being deleted through a more formal process.
" My question to you is, would this deletion be acceptable under IAR (why not, what harm does it cause ← actual questions); and do you think it is more or less okay that it was deleted under A7 rather than explicitly under IAR?--
Fuhghettaboutit (
talk) 23:04, 14 July 2009 (UTC)First, it can be used on the basis of a consensus. In other words, it's the provision that allows a local consensus (usually on a talk page or at an AfD) to suspend a global consensus (i.e. a guideline, or more rarely a policy) in the case of one particular article where it's in the encyclopaedia's interests to do so.
Second, it can be used as a WP:BRD: you do something, and if nobody reverts you, then what you've done is allowed to stand.
The problem with IAR speedy deletes is, there's no consensus as a basis for doing it, and no possibility to revert. In other words, it's a fait accompli on the basis of one person's judgment, and I can't for the life of me think of any circumstances in which deletion is so extremely urgent that speedy is necessary AND the deletion would not be covered under one of our existing grounds.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 12:52, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
My position is that an A7 deletion of that article would not be unreasonable. I don't agree with Fuhgettaboutit that A7 "manifestly" doesn't apply; I rather think it does. (No assertion of notability. I view the extension of A7 to include a game as within admin discretion.)
I see IAR as stronger than admin discretion — it's a deliberate decision, not just to interpret the rules in a particular way, but actively to disregard them.— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 16:04, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
@S. Marshall. Okay I think we're on the same page now. Just understand that to many people, including myself, expanding A7 to cover things that are within its spirit but not within the stated list of topics it applies to, is the very definition and heart of IAR use. Perforce, when you say you can't envisage any circumstance where applying IAR to a speedy deletion would be acceptable, many people will understand this to include said expansion of A7 type of deletion you acknowledge you don't have a problem with, and thus take a different meaning from your words than you intend because you and they have a different understanding of what IAR means. So many misunderstanding and arguments stem from definitional disharmony that no one is aware is the real problem.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 18:02, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm thinking that A7 should be expanded to articles outside of the current set which the content indicates the subject is non notable, not just lacking notability information.-- Ipatrol ( talk) 16:57, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
I've received a request from an inactive user (not active in earnest since 2006, though she has returned as recently as December 2008 for brief spurts of involvement in projectspace discussions) to delete her user talk page and archives. I'm going to delete her archives under G7 (she archived by copying and pasting from her main talk page, which means that there's no history being lost), but I'm wondering about the user talk page proper. As I read it, U1 applies only to userspace and not user talk space, though I've often seen it (incorrectly, in my view) used for the latter. My strong inclination is to grant this request, but I'm leery of making potentially controversial out of process deletions, and I thought I'd ask people here what they thought first. Steve Smith ( talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:49, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
I closed the RfC, and removed the link from CSD. Summary:
We might want to incorporate some of this. M 21:59, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
There are a series of speedy deletion critera that state that deletion is to occur seven days following the addition of the template for whatever reason. This does not seem to be a speedy deletion to me. Why are they included?— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙) 08:02, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi there. I would like to propose a minor rewording of A7 that does not change it's scope:
“ | ... an organization (e.g. band, club, company, etc., except |
” |
I think this is useful to emphasize that A7 does exclude universities, colleges, etc. as well. Regards So Why 09:37, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Above discussion shows, why I proposed this change. "School" is a different thing depending on in which country you live. Is an adult education center a school? What about a community college? The proposed changed wording would make it clear that A7 excludes any educational institution, no matter if it is called a "school" where it is located at. As M points out, "going to school" can mean a different thing depending on location and context. Regards So Why 21:28, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Why are schools/educational institutions being given special treatment?— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙) 06:41, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Normally, when there is a spam userpage when the thing being promoted matches the username, db-spam and a spam username block are applied. However, to circumvent this, some users use an ordinary username and then add spam to their userpage. However, the pages are not always blatantly promotional and appear encyclopedic. Does db-spam apply here? Triplestop x3 01:55, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Does G8 or other criteria apply to the Talk page of redirected articles? After reading WP:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive199#admining help, I asked the deleting admin to restore a redirect's Talk page, but another user has objected. I looked through several of the most recent archives, finding only WT:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 30#Empty talk pages and speedy deletion.
The page in question is Talk:Kristi Yamaoka, which was deleted G8 when its article was redirected as the result of WP:Articles for deletion/Kristi Yamaoka (6th nomination). I would also like some clarifying input on the general case. Flatscan ( talk) 04:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
For what it's worth, deleting the talk pages of redirects even when the there was no significant history (only one revision) has caused controversy in the past. I believe Misza, DerHexer, and myself would all be familiar with this. -- MZMcBride ( talk) 16:52, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
I've been spending some time recently overhauling the skeletal 'DeleteQueue' extension in SVN. As the name implies, this is a framework for allowing the software to keep track of, and largely automate the process of, deletion processes on a wiki. There isn't much documentation around at the moment (doesn't help that the extension currently doesn't work); I've tried to explain the work at User:Happy-melon/DeleteQueue. I am also keen to get input from the community here about what we'd like to see in a queued deletion system, to ensure that it has the maximum possible flexibility and utility here. So if you have any thoughts or comments on such an extension, please do drop me a note over at User talk:Happy-melon/DeleteQueue. Happy‑ melon 16:00, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Twice in the last few weeks, I have seen a user create an article with a speedy deletion tag already on it, the latest case being Robert Onley. I assume this due to the user copy/pasting it after it was deleted once already. I figure if they haven't changed the article, indeed haven't even made an effort to remove the tag, it probably should just be left. (It seems fully justified in this case) But I'm left wondering about the user who did it. What do you say to someone who would do that? I wouldn't want to give them the idea that re-creating the exact same article without the tag is somehow an improvement... Beeblebrox ( talk) 04:26, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Many times we get articles coming in with text similar to "Mullamoo Smith is a famous ginger cat, born in 1995 to Jenny Walker" or similar. It would be nice if we could modify CSD A7 to include animals as well as humans, so that these articles can be deleted with-in policy. {{ Db-person}} could be changed to note this too. I think this is a good idea. Thoughts? - Kingpin 13 ( talk) 22:40, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Support specific animal. As long as this refers to a specific animal, like Johnny the dog, then I think A7 should apply. It should not however apply to species. It is a non-subjective criteria and there is no reason why Bill's article should be speedied, yet the article about his goldfish should have a 7 day debate. These articles are already speedied under A7, it would be only fitting that policy reflect this common practice. Chillum 15:09, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
It seems like there is generally support for this addition. We should agree upon the wording now. I see that people want to be sure it refers to individual animals and not species. I agree this is important. How about:
This is basically the same wording we have now with ", individual animal(not species)" wedged in. What do people think? Is this clear? Does it represent the consensus? Chillum 00:06, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Sorry to stir things up when I thought it was all more or less settled, but a thought has occurred to me. Thinking about Fuhghettaboutit's comments on "animals" rather than "animal" prompted me to imagine the following scenario: someone creates the article My hamsters, which says "I have two hamsters, Tom and Gemma, which I bought in a pet shop yesterday". Not an article about an individual animal, so not covered. Clearly this is against the spirit of the proposed wording, and personally I would regard this as such an obvious case for IAR that I would see no problem, but I can see some wikilawyers getting excited about this. So maybe "individual animals" would be better. Otherwise I would have agreed with Thryduulf that "an individual animal" fits better with "a real person". JamesBWatson ( talk) 10:41, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree the (not species) part does seem evident. I only added it because it seems everyone was very clear on that aspect. "No context" does not apply to articles with context, using it on the articles described will only sometimes be accurate. Otherwise you might as well use WP:CSD#IAR. Chillum 13:28, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
I must say I was rather annoyed today when I navigated to Lias and found a troll from a non-notable story was mentioned on that page, and the troll didn't even have an article. (Perhaps it was a WikiTroll?) There are certain individual animals, such as Lonesome George and Pierre the penguin who are celebrities and deserve their own articles, but nobody cares that I once had a sea monkey named Irvin.
Anyway perhaps the wording you're looking for is "animal with little or no notability to the public community unless it comprises a complete taxon". I'm not sure of a better way to put it. Bob the Wikipedian ( talk • contribs) 20:56, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
I have left notices about this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mammals, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Birds, and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Zoo and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Animal rights Clayoquot ( talk | contribs) 03:23, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
an article about an individual animal (e.g. a pet) that does not indicate the importance or significance of the subject.
--
Fuhghettaboutit (
talk) 05:05, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
I assume that "a real person (human or not)" is meant to be a joke, since nobody with a reasonable knowledge of English would think that "person" normally means anything else. However, the "being" suggestion appears to be be meant seriously. The only reason given, as far as I can see, is that "Replacing person with being would change A7 to include animals without making it more complex and it would be shorter". Trivially shorter, while much less readily understood. Clayoquot says "If an article consists of "Zoey is an elephant at the Elbonia Zoo." it would fall under the current A7 wording. To me, that indicates that the current wording of A7 is overly broad." Why? What is wrong with speedily deleting such a pointless article? "Zoey is a famous elephant at the Elbonia Zoo" would be enough to protect it from this criterion, since it is sufficient to claim importance, not justify the claim. Without even such a minimal a claim as that I cannot see why an article should not go at once. Then again, the suggestion of restricting the rule to pets would allow an article which simply said "Daisy is a cow in Mr Smith's field in Blobsville Kansas" to stand, which does not seem to me to be better than "Daisy is a cat in Mr Smith's house in Blobsville Kansas". The relevant part of the current wording is "An article about ... individual animal(s) ... that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant", which seems to me perfectly clear. JamesBWatson ( talk) 12:19, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
← I completely oppose the notion that being in a zoo is an assertion of importance or significance. A small zoo like Bristol Zoo has five gorillas [5] and many more penguins, and other small animals. Is each one of these really suitable as the subject of an individual article? If a particular zoo animal is more important than any other zoo animal (and undoubtedly some are) then it is fair that we require article authors to say this. Thryduulf ( talk) 21:12, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
A small point of technical accuracy in the proposed wording - instead of " species", we should say " taxon" ... species is only one taxonomic rank which editors may wish to write an article about. SP-KP ( talk) 23:23, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
This CSD template indicates that any file that's not an image or sound file should deleted. However, the upload screen rejects any of these types of files, so this criterion seems redundant, and could be depreceated. Any input on this? Thanks, -- 科学 高爾夫 迷 18:06, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Ugh, tough call. I think I should talk with the user, but should I speedy and then talk, or talk first? - Dank ( push to talk) 18:20, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
A few hours ago there was an incident that causes me quite a lot of Wikistress. I probably overreacted and demanded an apology at the village pump, but I think that the issue (and thus a lot of stress) could have been avoided, if these criteria would have been slightly more specific. Let me summarize what happened: I created an article on a notable academic, specifically referring to the appropriate guideline in the edit summary. I thought it would be sufficient to write: " Wilson Jeremiah Moses (b. 1942) is an African-American historian. He is Professor of American History at Pennsylvania State University.", to satisfy the notability conditions of the guidelines, and provide the link to Wilson J. Moses homepage at Penn State University, which should, of course, be a reliable source for the fact that he is a Professor there. However, not any Professor is notable, so probably I should have written that he is the "holder of the Walter L. Ferree professorship in the middle period of American History.", because a 'named chair' is criteria N. 5 of the notability criteria for academics , but I didn't do that because I couldn't figure out who Walter L. Ferree was. And anyway, with the next edit I added the list of works, including two published by Oxford University Press and two published by Cambridge University Press. However, another editor flagged the new article under CSD A7 after two minutes. I found this profoundly irritating, since even the very short article made a "credible claim of significance or importance", and I simply removed the tag. (I probably should just have added {{hangon}}, but, as I said, I was quite angry.) However, then the article was actually deleted right between two of my edits, when I was about to add that Wilson J. Moses was also, among other, a visiting professor at Harvard University. I really don't think that I need to put up with this, and simply recreated the article, since I had the edit window opened anyway. This issue has cleared now, but I think we can avoid such problems in the future by adding two simply sentences to the criteria:
The purpose of the criteria for speedy deletion is to make deletion discussions, and therefore Wikipedia, more efficient. However, in this case, the criteria achieved the contrary. I was about to quickly create a new article with the basic information on a notable academic (because I wanted to create the article quickly, I created it directly, instead of drafting it first), but immediately after I had started I had to deal with a nomination for speedy deletion. There probably are more than dozen or so articles on non-notable subjects created each day on Wikipedia, but unlike cases of vandalism, attack pages or similar, I don't see a problem if articles on non-notable subjects aren't deleted immediately. However, I see I huge problem when articles on notable subjects are immediately threatened with deletion. I was about to add this directly to the project page, after the sentence "To avoid speedy deletion, make sure that articles provide both content and context.", but then I thought that it would be more appropriate to discuss this first. Zara1709 ( talk) 19:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
As I wrote recently in an AfD, I think A7 should not be used for most academics: implicit in receiving a Ph.D. is that their research has some permanent significance, although usually not by itself enough to pass a full AfD. I would certainly have declined the speedy for this one. Regardless of that, some standards for overhasty tagging of new articles seem like a good idea. We encourage new-page patrollers to go from the back of the new-page queue rather than from the front, but maybe some more explicit standard would be helpful. If we do put in some sort of delay, though, it should not apply to G10. — David Eppstein ( talk) 20:34, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
First, I just notified the deleting admin of this discussion. Second, I agree with those above who indicated that this should not have been deleted A7. Would it survive an AFD in the state it was in? Certainly not. But the reason why we don't allow articles that assert significance/importance to be deleted is because there may be more to the story than the current version indicates. This should have been prodded or sent to AfD, not speedily deleted.--- Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 21:27, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
There are clear differences between articles that say Foo F. Bar is a professor known for his achievements in sociology and Jane F. Doe is my sister. She is awesome or The Wikipedians is a band. They are awesome. A7 is supposed to be designed for those latter two examples that I have mentioned (and which I run into from time to time when patrolling) as opposed to the first example; the first example presents some assertion of notability, while the last two do not. That's where I believe people trip up a lot when it comes to tagging as A7. I think we'd we doing a disservice to those clear cases out there if we were forced to wait a certain amount of time before anything could be done. MuZemike 06:20, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
I found myself creating articles in single edits of ~5k bytes ( example) rather than building them slowly, using {{ inuse}} or {{ beingtranslated}} templates to keep the speedy deletion people at bay, or building in my sandbox rather than the article space—in other words, tricks to placate the new pages patrollers while writing. It was a little inconvenient even for someone who understands CSD, and I can't help thinking how hard it would be for someone new.
I also discovered Taukkyan Roadblock, which is (today) a perfectly accurate article, but when I first read it, was a hoax (admins will be able to see the history, I think). And I know how it slipped through the new pages patrol: it looked good. Infobox, broken into headings, it looked like something written by an experienced Wikipedian. So whoever looked at it didn't bother doing the checks.
I suppose what this discussion is coming to, is that new pages patrollers often don't check things. They aren't looking to see whether a good-faith article in construction could be sourced, and they aren't looking at whether a bad-faith article created in a single click is sourced. A very cynical part of me thinks this might be because the kind of people who check sources are working in the article space rather than at new pages patrol.
Instinct says that the new pages patrollers themselves aren't going to learn to check sources. New pages patrol is a speed game where the quickest trigger finger wins the prize. Which means that structurally, the onus is going to remain on the CSD-reviewing admin to look at sources. (If an admin can't be trusted to check sources, we're sunk.)
Given our current low ratio of admins to patrollers and editors, though, it's no wonder that some stuff that shouldn't be speedied, is, and some stuff that should be speedied, isn't.
So, let's promote a thousand trustworthy admins tomorrow and solve the problem. Sound good? :)— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 22:56, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Can we make a rule that says you have to write and source twenty articles before you're allowed to be a new pages patroller?— S Marshall Talk/ Cont 23:06, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Another thought on how to do achieve that tags are not visible too soon after creation, although this would require a new feature for the software: If we could get a dev to create a new
magic word called {{CREATIONTIMESTAMP}}
, we could change the templates so that they will only show on the page and in
CAT:CSD if the difference between this timestamp (i.e. the time and date of the page creation) and the current time is > 30 minutes. This way pages could still be tagged by overhasty taggers but the page creator will not see the tag or risk deletion within this time. And this way an exception could be made for {{
db-attack}}. Only downside I can see is that the creator might not be able to {{
hangon}} the page if they do not see the page but taggers are usually reminded to notify the creator and we could just tweak the notification template to reflect on the delay. What do you think? Regards
So
Why 06:17, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to propose adding obvious neologisms and stuff made up one day as a criteria for speedy deletion. This would be a more accurate reason for deletion than G1 (Patent nonsense). I've noticed an increase in these kind of articles over the past few months. In any hour I new page patrol, I generally prod 2 or 3 articles. I'm trying to think of one that was improved to the point of notability and cant. Having this criteria as a tool would be helpful and save editors time in dealing with this kind of cruft.-- RadioFan ( talk) 16:37, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
By the way, if we did have such a speedy criterion, I'd want it to apply only in cases (1) where the article consists only of a dictionary definition, (2) where the article lists no reliable sources for the use of the term, and (3) where it is not possible to find (e.g. by Google) any evidence of widespread or significant use of the term. So I'd think of these articles as not just failing WP:NOT, but also WP:N and WP:V. But for (2), the urban dictionary web site (or encyclopedia dramatica, etc) doesn't count as a reliable source, of course. — David Eppstein ( talk) 19:07, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Fuhghettaboutit says "many neologism state that they are newly created", and proposes a compromise CSD for "An article on a thing (word, phrase, game, ceremony, philosophy, religion, etc.), which indicates that it was invented/coined by the article's creator or someone they know, and does not indicate why its subject is important or significant". This reminds me of an AfD discussion I took place in recently where the article explicitly stated that its subject was little known and had not received media attention (or something to that effect: I forget the exact wording). More than one contributor to the AfD said that the article was in effect declaring its own lack of notability. Is there a case for, rather than a CSD for neologisms, a CSD for "articles which themselves state that they do not satisfy Wikipedia's criterion for inclusion"? (It might need rewording, but that is the idea.) This would cover the case I mentioned and also the sort of pages which Fuhghettaboutit referred to; however, it would avoid catching the type of case which DGG refers to, where what looks like a neologism turns out on investigation not to be one. On the face of it there would be a catch: if I want an article deleted I just add a sentence saying it is not notable, and propose it for speedy deletion. However, I don't see that as a serious problem: admins could presumably be expected to have the intelligence to see past that, and the instructions for this CSD could explicitly cover this. Any thoughts? JamesBWatson ( talk) 09:39, 28 July 2009 (UTC)