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This page is an Archive of the discussions at Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion and covers discussions held roughly between May 2005 and August 2005. (Some in that time period were also archived in Archive3.) As an archive, this is no longer considered a live page. Further discussions or disputes should be made on the current talk page. You may, however, link to or copy old discussions from here as necessary.
It seems that attack pages ("john doe is an idiot", stuff like that) are usually speedied, as libel. Should this page be edited to reflect that? R adiant _* 09:00, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
There si a discussion on this topic Wikipedia_talk:Images_and_media_for_deletion#Deletion policy for images on both Commons and another Wikipedia that may propose a change to criteria for speedy deletion. File:Helix84.jpg helix84 19:50, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I just found this {{db|non-sensical article on a group of worshippers of a [[Guy Fawkes|British murderer]].}} on Bonfire Society. Strikes me as more than a bit POV. Now I'm wondering if I should drop a note on the talk page of the user who posted it. Any suggestions? Filiocht | Blarneyman 12:50, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
There is a page titled Weston Fillman which should be quickly deleted as it is the biography of a self important recent high school graduate.
I propose that whoever deletes a page marked for speedy deletion must include the deciding reason for its deletion. I have had a page deleted twice now that was marked for speedy deletion on the basis of one man's POV. Whoever deletes an article must identify themselves and their reasons. They must be accountable. 80.229.14.246 00:02, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Maybe it's just my browser (Internet Explorer) or the screen definition (1400 1050), but the {{
Deletiontools}} template is shown right over the first paragraph in the article! I think it may be the "float: right;"
section on the style
of the table that composes it, although I have not changed it because I might be wrong.
Jotomicron |
talk 16:33, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
On 13 May 2005, the Implied section was added to the list. Now that it's been up a month and we have some experience with it, I think it's appropriate to reevaluate. Is it useful or is it instruction creep? Bullet 2 caught my eye tonight and, for some reason, struck me as redundant to General case 3 (vandalism). Do others find it useful? Can we trim the list without losing any of the meaning? Rossami (talk) 21:48, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Some of the recent changes to the CSD page made by user:Netoholic are, in my view, substantive. ( refer particualrly to the changes to G8 and A4) Is it normal to make such changes without a proposal and poll? Particularly when they to some extent duplicate or overlap changes in an ongoing proposal. Mind you i don't disagree with all the changes, but I am dubious about this procedure. DES 7 July 2005 21:58 (UTC)
What is the time limit for recreating an article after a VfD? The specific example is a biography that was deleted on April 30, 2005, and has been recreated (by the subject) today, July 18, 2005. Is it a candidate for Speedy or has enough time passed that a proposal for deletion should go through VfD again? Thanks, - Willmcw 22:14, July 18, 2005 (UTC) (PS: The content is not identical.)
...is a proposal to expand and amend the CSD. Please contribute! R adiant _>|< July 4, 2005 17:28 (UTC)
Recent activity in the deletion log, on VfD, and on [[WP:VFU|VfU] (in particular, WP:VFU#Chetan Patel this listing) has persuaded me that the new CSD criterion A7 (short bios without a claim of notability) needs some clarification. Specifically we need to come to a clearer agreement on what kinds of statement consititute a "claim of notability" The examples included with the original proposal are not sufficient. Therefore, I am proposing the following examples, not as policy, but as guidance in apply the existing policy. Once we reach a consensus on them, they can be used to guide future action under CSD A7.
I hope that people will comment on these proposed examples, and we can come to some sort of consensus on what is and is not a claim of notability. DES 04:33, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
The above are examples, and are not the only possible claims of notability. For purposes of CSD A7, any claim must be assumed to be true If the claim is disputed, or if there is a claim but the editor or admin is unsure if the degree of notability involved is sufficient to warrant an article, then CSD A7 should not be used. Instead edit and expand the article, or list it on VfD. If an admin finds an article listed for speedy deletion under A7 which makes a claim of notability such as one of the above, should remove the speedy deletion tag, possibly listing the article on VfD instead.
Note that the mere fact that a claim of notability is made is not a sufficient reason for the article to be retained during the VfD process. There the plausibility, verifiability, and importance of the claim may be assessed. These examples are only for the purpose of deciding when to apply CSD Criterion A7.
T'was me that took that article to VfU. I was, I admit, dubious about a large number of that particular admin's deletions (and I'm not especially inclusional). I couldn't see the rest of the article, and the deletion log reasoning was unpersuasive - the use of "apparently" is fuzzy when A7 has quite particular phrasing. Thus, I VfU'd it in good faith. I didn't realize I had caused this discussion. My view of "notability" was being a principal engineer might have meant there was something else in the article that went on to assert notability, even if it wasn't real notability.
However, the above does expand the A7 criterion quite a bit: no. 4 is proposal 3-C by proxy, and that failed (sadly). Perhaps (1) would be more tolerable to all if just said something easy like "Merely stating someone's occupation, regardless of what that occupation is, is not an assertion of notability unless qualified in some way so as to assert note". I think no. 4 would have to go (see the discussion page for 3-C). Also, no. 7 is effectively a new CSD by proxy: verifiability is not currently an explicit part of the CSD, although it probably ought to be. Ok, this isn't an especially helpful comment, but I'm rather thinking out loud. - Splash 18:58, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I got a complaint from another admin for deleting an article about a flash animation created by two sixth graders. This admin believed that it should have gone to VFD on the grounds that it did not explicitly meet the terms of 1.2.7 (which only covers biography of a non-notable person). My argument for believing that CSD 1.2.7 had been met (and hence my deletion) was if a person meets 1.2.7 (ie. is a non-notable person) then the work they create is also non-notable.
I get to this by working in reverse - can the work of a single person be notable, and yet the single person involved not be? (Obvoiusly the work of a large number of people - eg. a movie - can be notable without all the individuals involved being notable).
Another messy reason to argue policy... oh dear. As it stands - I can't bear the thought of listing a flash animation by a sixth grader on VFD... I mean - c'mon guys. If that logic holds, we would need to VFD every article that explains the significance of Jimmy Brown's latest love poem to the girl who sits next to him in history class, because CSD fails to explicitly allow its deletion. Manning 13:35, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
There are those of us (you know who you are) who tirelessly sit through the CSD pages, deleting all the nonsense, checking up on the ones which need more discernment, moving the non-CSD ones over to VFD, and writing warnings to the people who list stuff on CSD as vandalism. It is hard work.
Now those who do this are going to OCCASIONALLY get one wrong and overstep the line. Usually they are judgement calls - and usually some nameless garage band from Omaha. We really don't need some "holier-than-though" message from another admin about "Do you happen to know we have a deletion policy here at Wikipedia? You are over-stepping the line..." Blah blah blah.
Guys - back off. Anyone deleting a page is an admin, and no-one gets to admin status without putting in the hard yards. There are very few admins who behave irresponsibly, and they are easily sorted out. However, everyone makes mistakes and errors of judgement, and if you really disagree with a CSD decision, by all means explain your position. But cut out the whiny-arsed "holier-than-thou" crap. Show the respect you expect to receive. Manning 13:45, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
A Hoax is clearly not going to survive VfD. Neither will an attempt to use Wikipedia to publish fiction. But it seems to me that neither are subject to speedy deletion under the current CSD. Some think differently. This recently came up on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Gus Roberts, where I wrote:
What do others think about this? DES 18:10, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
As in all discussions of justice, the benefit of doubt is of major weight here. 02:30, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Watching the upload log for images can be a depressing time. Many images are uploaded and have no source or license information. WP:CP and WP:IFD and WP:PUI aren't really keeping up. I wonder if there could be support to expand CSD in some way to include recently uploaded images which have no source or copyright info. Perhaps such a system could work like this:
If the image gets properly tagged before step 3 happens, then the speedy tag is removed and all is well. Of course, communication with the uploader on their talk page will be an important aspect of this, as well. I also don't know if the process could be made simpler by somehow sorting the speedy-images category by date added (I'm not much of a template-writing guru, but perhaps the template could include the current UTC hour as the sort key for the category?)
Anyway, I'm curious to see what people think of this. Thanks. :) kmccoy (talk) 18:58, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
The image upload page states prominently the rules of the game. Unless some image is rare and worth hassle, I say, kill mercilessly. mikka (t) 02:34, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
If the "grace period" is 24-48 hours, then I am on board. Though, I think users should be notified somehow, just like what we do now. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 06:15, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
{{no source}}
tag (or equivalent warning of immanent deletion) for at least 48 hours or the user who uploaded it must have been previously warned about the deletion of unsourced images at least 48 hours ago.I have noted more than a few articles on bands or musical groups that appear, and go to VFD for being non-notable and unverifiable, with absolutely NO hits on any search engine. I'd like to suggest that the criteria be expanded to include any article on a band or musical group that turns up less than five results on a popular search engine. I'm aware of the recent failed proposal regarding bands failing to meet WP:MUSIC criteria, but thought that this might be a compromise that might work. In either case, I'm not sure how to go about proposing this change, other than listing it here. -- Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 12:21, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
The CSD for vanity allows speedy deletion about a real-world person that does not make a good-faith assertion of notability. Obviously, Wikipedia cannot contain a bio of all 5-billion humans, so there has to be some threshold.
Should we have a similar rule, similarly reasoned, with respect to obvious spam? I could see an aggressive deletionist interpreting the above rule to include corporations (which are persons in the eyes of the law), but that would be stretching a point. The reason, IMO, to include spam under CSD is that there is an incentive to create such articles, even if they are only short-lived, and that most companies now have a staff with the time and creativity to come up with new titles and ways to avoid the "substantially identical content" rule. A fail amount of VfD is spent on obvious advertisements, it seems to me.
This, of course, would not apply to good-faith attempts at NPOV articles about actually notable companies. Robert A West 14:38, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I have seen it argued that spam, along with "jokes" and very obvious hoaxes, are formes of vandalism, and subject to speedy deletion as such. Does that seem correct to you? DES 14:53, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
At present, some admins delete spam if it does not appear to be an attempt at an article. If it's just an ad, and there's no valuable encyclopedic content at all, that might be OK, though probably some users would object. Some falls under the present CSD if it consists only of links. Everything else has to go through VfD, as it should, because often such ads are expanded and become useful articles. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 21:54, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Also, does the criterion, "Any article which consists only of attempts to correspond with the person or group named by its title," include an article that is a contact page? Robert A West 14:41, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Any comments on Parker Law Firm? In this case, the article is clearly POV. While an attempt could be made to NPOV it, it was posted by someone who has been disrupting the VfD, harassing those who nominate/support the VfD, and using sock puppets despite repeated warnings against doing so. My offer to help the new user learn how to use Wikipedia was ridiculed. He has also returned to sock puppetry. I'd like to speedy this because of teh disruption, but as a nwe admin, I am treading carefully here. Ground Zero | t 14:10, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
What was wrong with the blank sign picture? Are we really to the point where we're being stuffy just for the sake of being stuffy? It'd be one thing to say "this is distracting" or "this is cluttering the page and making it hard to read", but I object to removing something amusing just because the page is Official Policy and "not the place for jokes". Lighten up. Isomorphic 02:30, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Sometimes pages that did not meet criteria as a CSD are voted on under VfD, receive a consensus to Delete and are duly deleted... and are then recreated by the original editor. Shouldn't such reincarnations be CSD? Sorry if this is in the rules, but I can't find it; it seems to me obvious that it should be. seglea 00:36, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't another criterion on speedy deletion be that an article has been determined by a non-admin closing a VfD debate that the article should be deleted? Obviously an admin would doing the actual deletion would need to check that the non-admin had not gone mad - but such a criterion may encourage non-admins to deal with the VfD workload (it certainly wouldn't do any harm), jguk 20:35, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
An administrator can execute a VfD that has been determined by a non-admin closer, but that isn't really a speedy deletion (it takes at least five days to close). I agree that the executing admin has to double check the result; clearly Kim's intent--and I think it's a very laudable one--is to encourage non-admins feel the responsibility on their shoulders for a while. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 21:21, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I strongly discourage non-admins from attempting to close a "delete" decision. They can't finish the work and any responsible admin is going to completely check their assessment before carrying out the decision. By the time you've reviewed the discussion and all the relevant facts in that level of detail, you've completely duplicated the non-admin's effort. Worse, you've also added several places where errors can get made and where discussions can fall through the cracks. I've had to clean up a couple of attempted closings like that. Rossami (talk) 21:30, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I removed an edit that extended the criterion against previous consensus.
It was a heated discussion about this criterion, resulting in the decision that only real nonsense should fit this criterion. Any coherent text must have a benefit of doubt. What is more, there were several precedents (unfortunately I did not record them) of attempts of deletetion of articles written on rare topics, which someone quickly declared nonsense.
Please be patient with the label of patent nonsense. Unlike false and misleading information, it will do no harm to let it stay for 5 days of VfD. mikka (t) 20:47, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
When is it ever appropriate to have a redirect from the main article space to a user page? I can't think of any reason to do this that isn't just vanity - e.g. if I create redirects from Freply Spang, Freply Ann Spang, Freply A. Spang, F. A. Spang, etc., to User:FreplySpang. I propose that "they redirect from the main article space to the User: space" should be an explict Criterion for Speedy Deletion of Redirects. FreplySpang (talk) 20:59, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
(shifting left) Hey, if I'm an admin all my vanity redirects should be admins too! :-) Thanks for the clarification. This has been sitting here for more than a week so, "hearing no objections," I'll add it to the criteria and see if anyone squawks. FreplySpang (talk) 14:27, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
The article spherocytosis describes a medical condition which results in abnormal shaped red blood cells spherocytes. However the spherocytes entry is just a dictionary definition and not an encyclopedic article. Nor is it a stub, as all elaboration is correctly within the spherocytosis disease article. I copied the definition across to wiktionary, but am unsure what next I should do in wikipedia:
David Ruben 21:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Generally an article about a real thing is never a dicdef for deletion. However it may be desirable to merge a very small article into the one with broader context. See how I've done this: Spherocytosis. mikka (t)
Would it be possible to get a speedy deletion tag for non-notable website advertisements. The criteria for including web-sites in their own seperate Wiki page seems to have an easy to apply threshhold. Specifically this would be useful for pages such as Potterish, an entry for a webpage of a small Harry Potter fanclub. (which is already listed in harry potter fanclubs). It might also be nice to have something similar for product adverts, at least products which are currently unknown and ungoogleable, a VfD simply doesn't need to take place. -- Darkfred Talk to me 13:25, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
I want to be able to speedy articles of the calibre of AR!, which doesn't meet any of the current speedy criteria. Perhaps an additional speedy criterion should be Ultra-low Notability - something which is transparently unencyclopedic, but not quite patent nonsense. Similarly, transparent advertising could also be speediable. Rd232 22:21, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
There seems to be some confusion about the policy that states that a redundant image "does not include pictures that are merely similar, such as JPEG versions of PNG images". So I added the line "or any other picture that has been saved in a different image file format" to make it more clear. If you can make it more clear, be my guest. The point, as I recall, is that different file formats each have their own pros and cons (which are listed on WP:IUP#Format), and thus when you convert an image from JPEG to PNG, some of the resolution and quality may change. That is why they are not candidates for speedy. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 16:42, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
The only really good criterion for speedy deletion is oops. That is, I created a page by mistake, and ask for it to be deleted. Nobody else has the right to pass summary judgement -- although any editor may edit any page to remove questionable content. There are a small number of other cases in which speedy may be called for, but these should be few and far between, not an everyday occurance.
Many pages are created that ought not be; this can be controlled in other ways -- ways completely outside any process of mechanical deletion. Contentious content must be dealt with by outcome of Community consensus -- not by a handful of overactive editors and abusive admins.
I don't doubt that many see their actions as both thankless and noble; I'm sorry that I do not. At best, well-intentioned deletion papers over serious weaknesses of our overall editing mechanisms; at worst, it affords a cloak of respectibility under which evil deletionists operate without check or balance.
Whenever any editor dares to ram through yet another addition to CSD, let it be known that my vote is opposed. — Xiong 熊 talk * 03:25, 2005 August 26 (UTC)
/me loves what Harmil said personally. Redwolf24 ( talk) 04:00, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
Currently, all pages using the template Template:Transwikied and Deleted are candidates for speedy deletion:
Umm...so... shall we go ahead and delete these 100+ talk pages, and put the template up for deletion? Or add an exception to the criteria? I'd prefer the former. Coffee 10:25, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Extensive discussion around "re-created content" and speedy immunity:
This should be centralised to avoid repitition. So:
Order of events:
brenneman (t) (c) 13:54, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
I mentioned at the time that this was a serious weakness of this CSD, although I believe I eventually supported it. I recall the explanations at the time saying that G4 was not overriden by other CSDs. That is, if speedied and remade, other CSDs can still apply. So if we go "nnbio-speedy-remake-nnbio-", it's ok to nn-bio it again — G4 does not withstand. This has been a point of contention since that time, and should be clarified. I personally do not think that an article should acquire this kind of immunity by being deleted! We should not give the trolls back their foodbowl just because they put the same thing in it twice. I would absolutely support the removal of the clause as Encephalon suggests. - Splash 17:18, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
It does seem inconsistent, doesn't it? One more way to look at it is as follows. The phrase "[This does not apply to]...content that was speedily deleted..." seems to have been written into G4 to protect something. What? If it is true that any previously speedied article can be speedied again (if substantially identical), then it is difficult to see what that phrase is for. In the AfD discussion I took in good faith that that phrase actually means something; the rationale I attempted at AfD seemed one plausible explanation, if one accepts the premise that the phrase is actually intended to protect something and is not a mistake. In practice, it is almost certainly not applied by any sysop doing SD work. (Can you imagine deleting "unfdsuafnklksyhcdfd" once, coming back to find it again, and having to send it to AfD?) As far as I can see, that clause is logically incompatible with the rest of CSD if we accept the meaning of the third sentence in G4 that is here advanced. (You can draw the Venn diagrams to see). So it seems to me that one must go: either the third sentence in G4, or that clause in the second. Keeping both is illogical. The decision must be made very wisely— one choice, if enforced, will bring CSD to a complete, grinding halt.— encephalon | ζ 17:27:30, 2005-09-04 (UTC)
My understanding is that the clause was added to emphasize that a prior improper speedy cannot be used as justification for speedying a recreation. Of course, the original speedy was not according to the deletion policy, but the fact is they happen all the time anyway. :( — Cryptic (talk) 18:34, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
- Splash 18:51, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello guys. Splash's link was very helpful (thanks); it precisely confirmed my suspicions as to why this criterion was written this way. He is also correct that the very things we're discussing now were also raised at the time (by some you too, eg Cryptic :)). I think there were a lot of good intentions behind this version of G4, but, IMHO, some errors were made in the actual writing, such that it's giving rise to the logical inconsistencies that we're discussing here. Will post a modest proposal on possible solutions soon.— encephalon | ζ 19:15:10, 2005-09-04 (UTC)
Look at all of the unnecessary verbiage this has generated. It boils down to whether or not an admin can speedy delete an article. If they can, they can. If they can't, they can't, but WP:CDS says they can. Encephalon is now saying that, once an article is speedy deleted, if it's recreated, even if with the exact same wording, an admin can't redelete it, it has to go to AfD. But that's a complete violation of the trend to try to cut down on the mess that is AfD by expanding the CSD rules. I, personally, intend to continue to delete recreated speedies, and if you don't like it, take me to RfAr. There's always VfU, which is only minimally used these days. Zoe 20:35, September 4, 2005 (UTC)
I don't imagine that this was the intention. That delete/restore conflict would be avoided if the article were either taken to VfU or the person who restores the article placed it immediately on VfD and notifies the deleting admin, as per existing policy. That seems to be an entirely different basket of fish from
Ring Foo's recreation.
brenneman
(t)
(c) 00:57, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
This discussion has been helpful, and I thank Aaron for responding to some of the questions raised on the Cam Wilson AfD, and the excellent perspectives offered by him, Splash, Blackcap, Cryptic, DES and Zoe (who, while I think may have misunderstood me here, has always been an astute sysop I have learned much from and have a great liking for. And Zoe, I plead guilty to verbiage :). Can you forgive me?).
There appears to be a logical inconsistency in the G4 criterion, and it may cause some confusion as it did in this AfD and apparently has in the past in others. This was of course entirely unintended (no one intends confusion, even when they create it), and if we can find a way of expressing less confusingly the intent of those who passed the rule, it may be worth looking into. I do not know if this can be done, but maybe we can try having a shot at it, eh?
It is helpful first to understand the true intent of the G4 rule. Why do we have it? In its fundamental, most essential form, the G4 rule simply means this: if an article was found unsuitable for WP in the past, and you then find an exact re-creation of it, you do not have to go through the whole rigmarole of formally discussing it again before deleting it once more.
G4 is recognition that the community has dealt with a problem before, come to a decision, and doesn't need to expend resources to reach that same decision every time the problem is recreated. If the article is substantially improved, however, or very different, then common sense dictates it can be considered anew in the usual fashion.
That's it. That's the core of G4. I wouldn't be surprised if in its very earliest manifestations the rule was actually stated similarly to the above.
What were the concerns that drove the newest proposal? I cannot be completely sure since I wasn't involved in creating it, but from reading the pages Splash has helpfully pointed out (and from listening to Aaron on the Wilson AfD!) I think the changes were driven by two things:
I think they were very successful with 1, and slightly less so with 2.
We all know what the beast currently looks like. At the risk of seriously pissing off the lot of you, I'm going to ennumerate them here:
G4. (Sysops may immediately delete a page [if it is])
The first sentence, (i.), is not confusing. It sets out the rule and and introduces the changes in (1.) that they wanted. Good stuff.
With (ii.), the problems begin. It says that this rule does not apply to previous speedies. That is, it removes the authority of G4 over articles that were deleted in the past via speedies. This is problematic. The reason it is is discussed at length above. Briefly, G4 is the CSD rule that empowers an admin to delete (again) something that was previously appropriately deleted, without having to use AfD; the clause however says that the G4 rule does not apply to previous speedies. This implies that an admin cannot speedily delete a previous speedy, but (urgh!) must bring it to AfD. Why was this rule written this way?
The question was asked in the proposal, and the answer provided by a thoughtful wikipedian of great experience:
It sounds like the concern for potential abuse of power led to the creation of (ii.); and then (iii.) was created to provide a "window". In truth, there is a slight miscommunication in the above answer: any article that is deleted is always deleted because it violates a fundamental WP rule about articles, which all derive from the fundamental laws of the Wiki ( NOR, V, NOT etc). An article is never deleted because it is recreated; it is always deleted because it is lousy. G4 is merely a method to delete articles quickly whose lousiness has already been determined in the past. Therefore, the correct use of G4 always obtains its authority from another SD or WP:DEL criterion. It is true that this is not always clear, and as DES points out, there are editors who might abuse G4 without understanding that principal. But the solution that was proposed co-opted the misunderstanding instead of clarifying it, and coupled with the "abuse of power" concern noted above, was responsible for the form of G4 we have today.
Is there a way we can re-write G4 to remove its problems, yet accurately state the intentions embodied in the proposal? Possibly. I'm wondering if a simple rendition that just states what is expected of sysops might work. In truth, what the proposers were trying to do was get admins faced with a recreated speedy to make sure that it indeed violates a CSD (ie. that it was properly speedied the last time). How about:
Is this ok?
One objection might be: what if the first deletion was a valid speedy, but then the editor rewrote it properly. Does that mean it can be speedied under G4 just because the last speedy was valid? Answer: no. If it was rewritten to such an extent that it met previous objections, it is not a "substantially identical copy" and the entire G4 rule does not even apply. It should be considered anew on its merits. Remember G4 only concerns virtually identical copies of the first deleted article.
Another objection might be the issue that underlies the current problems. Let's say someone writes an article on George Washington (ie. eminently notable, non-deletable etc). Level 6 rogue sysop comes along and speedily deletes (doesn't like the editor's IP, or something). IP man recreates. L6RS re-SDs, then goes on wikivacation. IP man recreates again. You come along. Is there a way you can, in good faith, re-delete the article by claiming that the CSD it violated was G4? I don't think so, because when you apply (iii.) you will see that the previous SDs were not appropriate.
Is it "instruction creep"? I personally don't think so. I have removed two things (the problematic clause in the second sentence, and the whole third sentence), and introduced one. Tried to write it in the simplest version that will still retain meaning. There are many different possible versions (eg. removing "appropriately deleted" in (iii) and inserting "validly" in (i)), and it's also possible to simplify (iii) further. I felt maybe I'd just make this suggestion, and you guys could summarily dismiss it out of hand discuss this or other ways of approaching "the problem." Cheers—
encephalon |
ζ 05:05:11, 2005-09-05 (UTC)
Great explanation, good idea, go to it. JesseW, the juggling janitor 10:27, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Bravo. - brenneman (t) (c) 11:27, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Goodness. I go to bed for a few hours, and look what happens! I think that's a excellent redraft backed by crystal clear reasoning. Some logical linking between the clauses would be useful, though: VfU is prone to lawyering over things otherwise. So, I think we should reverse (ii) and (iii), and add to the end of (i) "on the proviso that", or similar. But this is a welcome clarification of the question. Also, the CSDs are for meeting rather than contravening. Thus, taking the above suggestions into account as well, we have:
I have concerns over the potential for wheel warring over (iii) (e.g. "I am the Lone Gun admin, and must undelete this article to save the Wiki from Anarchy. Look, it says so here.". Lone Gun is then able to preclude any re-deletion by the original admin because the undeletion is in accordance with the undeletion policy as interpreted. On past performance, there's a fair chance the original admin will opt to overlook this fact. However, that is a point that is under discussion at VfU and is really VfU's problem rather than CSDs. - Splash 13:17, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
I always understood the original wording to mean exactly that. This latest version seems to say exactly the same thing in more words. But if the current wording is really unclear, I suppose we must amend it. Rossami (talk) 13:31, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
JesseW, thanks for your comments (and congrats on sysophood!). Please feel free to suggest edits to this if you'd like.
Aaron, glad you like it. Do you forsee any problematic interpretations? Your (and Rossami's) perspectives as long-time admins will be valuable. Incidentally, Aaron, you played a big part in this. If we hadn't talked at the Wilson AfD, I would not have realized what the current rule was intended to mean, although I always thought it was oddly phrased. (By the way, if the above ends up being judged a lousy suggestion, we're all blaming you:))
Rossami, thanks for the thoughts. I'm not at all surprised that you always understood the current rule as it was meant to be understood— you have a deserved reputation for being able to make difficult deletion decisions and having an intimate understanding of policy. This exercise however is aimed at making it a little easier for those who are not Rossamis, Rossami. I'm not sure I'd say that the two versions say the same thing; I think it is possible to interpret the current version to mean what the proposed version tries to say simply and explicitly.
G4 is a rule that pertains to a subset of all WP articles: those that were previously created and deleted. In the currently used scheme, an attempt is made to exclude one subset of this subset (ie. articles that were created and then speedily deleted) from the purview of the rule, but yet also make it possible for precisely the action engendered by the rule to apply to this very subset (ie. the speedy deletion of previously speedied articles). Hence, the abstract gyrations that had to be made.
In the proposal under discussion here, an operational definition is used. The rule is stated, followed by the desired actions. This makes it, I think, simple to understand and to use. The basic scheme is like this:
This is simplicity itself (methinks). There is no confusion as to whether a previously speedied article can be speedied again, etc., etc., as what should be done is stated pretty clearly.
Splash, my man! I love your suggestions. The reversal of (ii) and (iii) is good. I considered it; the reason I didn't put it in was the "This" in the second sentence (third in yours) was in reference to the rule, and I didn't want it too far removed. But the way you've written it is fine, since it has "on the proviso that". Incidentally, I wonder if that phrase will be objected to as (ostensibly) an example of needless wikilawyering. Or something. If I had thought of it my first instinct would have been proviso quod; maybe "provided that"? Although grammatically it isn't smooth. I personally have absolutely no problem with your version. "Meeting" v "contravening": superb catch. Critical too— it's exactly the opposite meaning. Lol. I've gotten into the habit of saying "X contravenes WP:Y" on AfD, and that carried over.
Regarding the VfU issue, if I understand what you're saying correctly, that's really not a CSD problem, is it? It's a VfU problem. If Lone Gun says, "I must undelete this article to save the Wiki from Anarchy," he can then point to CSD to stave off a speedy challenge; the problem however is not that the CSD bars challenge, it's that post-AfD conflicts presently occur in a somewhat policy-free zone (which may or may not be a bad thing from the point of view of a Wiki, although I happen to think it is). Furthermore, the reason we've been discussing this rule and the above proposal is purely to make an existing rule clear: I had no intention when I started to make any kind of change to the intent of the rule. That is however what we'd be doing if we took out the "does not apply to undeleted articles" caveat. — encephalon έγκέφαλος 07:36:05, 2005-09-06 (UTC)
Including Wikilinks we have:
So if we agree on that, we need a friendly admin to come along and paste it in over the protection for us. I'll drop the Pump a note too, but this is a clarification rather than a change of wording, so there hopefully shouldn't be any problem.
Splash, two things:
Finally, I'm not certain of the correct procedure to have the text changed. Does this require the attention of more eyes? Administrative or bureaucratic ones? I take it there's no need for a poll, because this clarifies meaning rather than changes intent, but can we confirm that? Thanks everyone.— encephalon έγκέφαλος 15:32:14, 2005-09-06 (UTC)
Not sure we need to be this specific. If someone kept recreating a speedied article, it could be redeleted under the previous speedy grounds. If I wasn't sure, I'd list it on AfD. In extreme cases (such as recreation of an attack, threat, obscenity, egregious copyright violation or defamation) the article could be protected from recreation. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 16:15, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
There will always be questions about whether a recreated article is substantively different from another. When in doubt, a conscientious sysop will put it on AfD. If the sysop of your choice doesn't agree, find another one who will do it. I don't think trying to spell it out helps; people who don't think a particular recreation is valid probably aren't speedying because the rules say they can, but because they genuinely believe the recreation is no better than the original. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 16:53, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Nandesuka, I can't speak for other sysops, but I've taken a few undeleted bad speedies through AfD when undeletion was disputed, and have found they are almost invariably kept at AfD. In any case I don't see a problem with taking a speedy that is disputed between sysops to AfD where the issue is decided by consensus. The guiding principle of deletion policy is: when in doubt, don't delete. An article that appears to me like it should be deleted, belongs on AfD unless there is in fact a speedy criterion that applies. If I think a speedy policy applies and another sysop doesn't, I'll list it on AfD anyhow. There are borderline cases and AfD is specifically designed for making such decisions. I just don't see a problem here. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 17:26, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
As almost everyone seems to agree with these well-reasoned clarifications, and as this does not change any policy, no polling is required, "Feel free to update the page as needed".
brenneman
(t)
(c) 23:53, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Excuse me for being dense. I didn't realise that the article had been protected. I've no idea why or when this was done.
As you're undoubtedly aware, I'm not the only admin on Wikipedia. But if you want to persuade people that you're making suggestions in good faith, might I suggest that you refrain from attempts to needle people? -- Tony Sidaway Talk 01:41, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I understood the debate as being mostly closed. I also understood Tony's concerns to be more a case of "Well, what for?" as opposed to "For god's sake no!". If I was incorrect in these, I do apologise. I suppose there is no rush, but unless someone has a concrete and actionable objections, I think that rough consensus indicates these changes should be made. (Although I'd take out at least one comma!)
brenneman
(t)
(c) 00:08, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
In the absence of any further discussion: Changes made, one comma removed. - brenneman (t) (c) 01:40, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
And should be archived as soon as we tie off the G4 discussion. (I.e. asking for anyone who objects to me archiving tomorrow to say so!)
brenneman
(t)
(c) 00:05, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
This page is an Archive of the discussions at Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion and covers discussions held roughly between May 2005 and August 2005. (Some in that time period were also archived in Archive3.) As an archive, this is no longer considered a live page. Further discussions or disputes should be made on the current talk page. You may, however, link to or copy old discussions from here as necessary.
It seems that attack pages ("john doe is an idiot", stuff like that) are usually speedied, as libel. Should this page be edited to reflect that? R adiant _* 09:00, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
There si a discussion on this topic Wikipedia_talk:Images_and_media_for_deletion#Deletion policy for images on both Commons and another Wikipedia that may propose a change to criteria for speedy deletion. File:Helix84.jpg helix84 19:50, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I just found this {{db|non-sensical article on a group of worshippers of a [[Guy Fawkes|British murderer]].}} on Bonfire Society. Strikes me as more than a bit POV. Now I'm wondering if I should drop a note on the talk page of the user who posted it. Any suggestions? Filiocht | Blarneyman 12:50, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
There is a page titled Weston Fillman which should be quickly deleted as it is the biography of a self important recent high school graduate.
I propose that whoever deletes a page marked for speedy deletion must include the deciding reason for its deletion. I have had a page deleted twice now that was marked for speedy deletion on the basis of one man's POV. Whoever deletes an article must identify themselves and their reasons. They must be accountable. 80.229.14.246 00:02, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Maybe it's just my browser (Internet Explorer) or the screen definition (1400 1050), but the {{
Deletiontools}} template is shown right over the first paragraph in the article! I think it may be the "float: right;"
section on the style
of the table that composes it, although I have not changed it because I might be wrong.
Jotomicron |
talk 16:33, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
On 13 May 2005, the Implied section was added to the list. Now that it's been up a month and we have some experience with it, I think it's appropriate to reevaluate. Is it useful or is it instruction creep? Bullet 2 caught my eye tonight and, for some reason, struck me as redundant to General case 3 (vandalism). Do others find it useful? Can we trim the list without losing any of the meaning? Rossami (talk) 21:48, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Some of the recent changes to the CSD page made by user:Netoholic are, in my view, substantive. ( refer particualrly to the changes to G8 and A4) Is it normal to make such changes without a proposal and poll? Particularly when they to some extent duplicate or overlap changes in an ongoing proposal. Mind you i don't disagree with all the changes, but I am dubious about this procedure. DES 7 July 2005 21:58 (UTC)
What is the time limit for recreating an article after a VfD? The specific example is a biography that was deleted on April 30, 2005, and has been recreated (by the subject) today, July 18, 2005. Is it a candidate for Speedy or has enough time passed that a proposal for deletion should go through VfD again? Thanks, - Willmcw 22:14, July 18, 2005 (UTC) (PS: The content is not identical.)
...is a proposal to expand and amend the CSD. Please contribute! R adiant _>|< July 4, 2005 17:28 (UTC)
Recent activity in the deletion log, on VfD, and on [[WP:VFU|VfU] (in particular, WP:VFU#Chetan Patel this listing) has persuaded me that the new CSD criterion A7 (short bios without a claim of notability) needs some clarification. Specifically we need to come to a clearer agreement on what kinds of statement consititute a "claim of notability" The examples included with the original proposal are not sufficient. Therefore, I am proposing the following examples, not as policy, but as guidance in apply the existing policy. Once we reach a consensus on them, they can be used to guide future action under CSD A7.
I hope that people will comment on these proposed examples, and we can come to some sort of consensus on what is and is not a claim of notability. DES 04:33, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
The above are examples, and are not the only possible claims of notability. For purposes of CSD A7, any claim must be assumed to be true If the claim is disputed, or if there is a claim but the editor or admin is unsure if the degree of notability involved is sufficient to warrant an article, then CSD A7 should not be used. Instead edit and expand the article, or list it on VfD. If an admin finds an article listed for speedy deletion under A7 which makes a claim of notability such as one of the above, should remove the speedy deletion tag, possibly listing the article on VfD instead.
Note that the mere fact that a claim of notability is made is not a sufficient reason for the article to be retained during the VfD process. There the plausibility, verifiability, and importance of the claim may be assessed. These examples are only for the purpose of deciding when to apply CSD Criterion A7.
T'was me that took that article to VfU. I was, I admit, dubious about a large number of that particular admin's deletions (and I'm not especially inclusional). I couldn't see the rest of the article, and the deletion log reasoning was unpersuasive - the use of "apparently" is fuzzy when A7 has quite particular phrasing. Thus, I VfU'd it in good faith. I didn't realize I had caused this discussion. My view of "notability" was being a principal engineer might have meant there was something else in the article that went on to assert notability, even if it wasn't real notability.
However, the above does expand the A7 criterion quite a bit: no. 4 is proposal 3-C by proxy, and that failed (sadly). Perhaps (1) would be more tolerable to all if just said something easy like "Merely stating someone's occupation, regardless of what that occupation is, is not an assertion of notability unless qualified in some way so as to assert note". I think no. 4 would have to go (see the discussion page for 3-C). Also, no. 7 is effectively a new CSD by proxy: verifiability is not currently an explicit part of the CSD, although it probably ought to be. Ok, this isn't an especially helpful comment, but I'm rather thinking out loud. - Splash 18:58, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I got a complaint from another admin for deleting an article about a flash animation created by two sixth graders. This admin believed that it should have gone to VFD on the grounds that it did not explicitly meet the terms of 1.2.7 (which only covers biography of a non-notable person). My argument for believing that CSD 1.2.7 had been met (and hence my deletion) was if a person meets 1.2.7 (ie. is a non-notable person) then the work they create is also non-notable.
I get to this by working in reverse - can the work of a single person be notable, and yet the single person involved not be? (Obvoiusly the work of a large number of people - eg. a movie - can be notable without all the individuals involved being notable).
Another messy reason to argue policy... oh dear. As it stands - I can't bear the thought of listing a flash animation by a sixth grader on VFD... I mean - c'mon guys. If that logic holds, we would need to VFD every article that explains the significance of Jimmy Brown's latest love poem to the girl who sits next to him in history class, because CSD fails to explicitly allow its deletion. Manning 13:35, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
There are those of us (you know who you are) who tirelessly sit through the CSD pages, deleting all the nonsense, checking up on the ones which need more discernment, moving the non-CSD ones over to VFD, and writing warnings to the people who list stuff on CSD as vandalism. It is hard work.
Now those who do this are going to OCCASIONALLY get one wrong and overstep the line. Usually they are judgement calls - and usually some nameless garage band from Omaha. We really don't need some "holier-than-though" message from another admin about "Do you happen to know we have a deletion policy here at Wikipedia? You are over-stepping the line..." Blah blah blah.
Guys - back off. Anyone deleting a page is an admin, and no-one gets to admin status without putting in the hard yards. There are very few admins who behave irresponsibly, and they are easily sorted out. However, everyone makes mistakes and errors of judgement, and if you really disagree with a CSD decision, by all means explain your position. But cut out the whiny-arsed "holier-than-thou" crap. Show the respect you expect to receive. Manning 13:45, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
A Hoax is clearly not going to survive VfD. Neither will an attempt to use Wikipedia to publish fiction. But it seems to me that neither are subject to speedy deletion under the current CSD. Some think differently. This recently came up on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Gus Roberts, where I wrote:
What do others think about this? DES 18:10, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
As in all discussions of justice, the benefit of doubt is of major weight here. 02:30, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Watching the upload log for images can be a depressing time. Many images are uploaded and have no source or license information. WP:CP and WP:IFD and WP:PUI aren't really keeping up. I wonder if there could be support to expand CSD in some way to include recently uploaded images which have no source or copyright info. Perhaps such a system could work like this:
If the image gets properly tagged before step 3 happens, then the speedy tag is removed and all is well. Of course, communication with the uploader on their talk page will be an important aspect of this, as well. I also don't know if the process could be made simpler by somehow sorting the speedy-images category by date added (I'm not much of a template-writing guru, but perhaps the template could include the current UTC hour as the sort key for the category?)
Anyway, I'm curious to see what people think of this. Thanks. :) kmccoy (talk) 18:58, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
The image upload page states prominently the rules of the game. Unless some image is rare and worth hassle, I say, kill mercilessly. mikka (t) 02:34, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
If the "grace period" is 24-48 hours, then I am on board. Though, I think users should be notified somehow, just like what we do now. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 06:15, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
{{no source}}
tag (or equivalent warning of immanent deletion) for at least 48 hours or the user who uploaded it must have been previously warned about the deletion of unsourced images at least 48 hours ago.I have noted more than a few articles on bands or musical groups that appear, and go to VFD for being non-notable and unverifiable, with absolutely NO hits on any search engine. I'd like to suggest that the criteria be expanded to include any article on a band or musical group that turns up less than five results on a popular search engine. I'm aware of the recent failed proposal regarding bands failing to meet WP:MUSIC criteria, but thought that this might be a compromise that might work. In either case, I'm not sure how to go about proposing this change, other than listing it here. -- Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 12:21, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
The CSD for vanity allows speedy deletion about a real-world person that does not make a good-faith assertion of notability. Obviously, Wikipedia cannot contain a bio of all 5-billion humans, so there has to be some threshold.
Should we have a similar rule, similarly reasoned, with respect to obvious spam? I could see an aggressive deletionist interpreting the above rule to include corporations (which are persons in the eyes of the law), but that would be stretching a point. The reason, IMO, to include spam under CSD is that there is an incentive to create such articles, even if they are only short-lived, and that most companies now have a staff with the time and creativity to come up with new titles and ways to avoid the "substantially identical content" rule. A fail amount of VfD is spent on obvious advertisements, it seems to me.
This, of course, would not apply to good-faith attempts at NPOV articles about actually notable companies. Robert A West 14:38, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I have seen it argued that spam, along with "jokes" and very obvious hoaxes, are formes of vandalism, and subject to speedy deletion as such. Does that seem correct to you? DES 14:53, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
At present, some admins delete spam if it does not appear to be an attempt at an article. If it's just an ad, and there's no valuable encyclopedic content at all, that might be OK, though probably some users would object. Some falls under the present CSD if it consists only of links. Everything else has to go through VfD, as it should, because often such ads are expanded and become useful articles. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 21:54, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Also, does the criterion, "Any article which consists only of attempts to correspond with the person or group named by its title," include an article that is a contact page? Robert A West 14:41, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Any comments on Parker Law Firm? In this case, the article is clearly POV. While an attempt could be made to NPOV it, it was posted by someone who has been disrupting the VfD, harassing those who nominate/support the VfD, and using sock puppets despite repeated warnings against doing so. My offer to help the new user learn how to use Wikipedia was ridiculed. He has also returned to sock puppetry. I'd like to speedy this because of teh disruption, but as a nwe admin, I am treading carefully here. Ground Zero | t 14:10, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
What was wrong with the blank sign picture? Are we really to the point where we're being stuffy just for the sake of being stuffy? It'd be one thing to say "this is distracting" or "this is cluttering the page and making it hard to read", but I object to removing something amusing just because the page is Official Policy and "not the place for jokes". Lighten up. Isomorphic 02:30, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Sometimes pages that did not meet criteria as a CSD are voted on under VfD, receive a consensus to Delete and are duly deleted... and are then recreated by the original editor. Shouldn't such reincarnations be CSD? Sorry if this is in the rules, but I can't find it; it seems to me obvious that it should be. seglea 00:36, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't another criterion on speedy deletion be that an article has been determined by a non-admin closing a VfD debate that the article should be deleted? Obviously an admin would doing the actual deletion would need to check that the non-admin had not gone mad - but such a criterion may encourage non-admins to deal with the VfD workload (it certainly wouldn't do any harm), jguk 20:35, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
An administrator can execute a VfD that has been determined by a non-admin closer, but that isn't really a speedy deletion (it takes at least five days to close). I agree that the executing admin has to double check the result; clearly Kim's intent--and I think it's a very laudable one--is to encourage non-admins feel the responsibility on their shoulders for a while. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 21:21, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I strongly discourage non-admins from attempting to close a "delete" decision. They can't finish the work and any responsible admin is going to completely check their assessment before carrying out the decision. By the time you've reviewed the discussion and all the relevant facts in that level of detail, you've completely duplicated the non-admin's effort. Worse, you've also added several places where errors can get made and where discussions can fall through the cracks. I've had to clean up a couple of attempted closings like that. Rossami (talk) 21:30, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I removed an edit that extended the criterion against previous consensus.
It was a heated discussion about this criterion, resulting in the decision that only real nonsense should fit this criterion. Any coherent text must have a benefit of doubt. What is more, there were several precedents (unfortunately I did not record them) of attempts of deletetion of articles written on rare topics, which someone quickly declared nonsense.
Please be patient with the label of patent nonsense. Unlike false and misleading information, it will do no harm to let it stay for 5 days of VfD. mikka (t) 20:47, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
When is it ever appropriate to have a redirect from the main article space to a user page? I can't think of any reason to do this that isn't just vanity - e.g. if I create redirects from Freply Spang, Freply Ann Spang, Freply A. Spang, F. A. Spang, etc., to User:FreplySpang. I propose that "they redirect from the main article space to the User: space" should be an explict Criterion for Speedy Deletion of Redirects. FreplySpang (talk) 20:59, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
(shifting left) Hey, if I'm an admin all my vanity redirects should be admins too! :-) Thanks for the clarification. This has been sitting here for more than a week so, "hearing no objections," I'll add it to the criteria and see if anyone squawks. FreplySpang (talk) 14:27, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
The article spherocytosis describes a medical condition which results in abnormal shaped red blood cells spherocytes. However the spherocytes entry is just a dictionary definition and not an encyclopedic article. Nor is it a stub, as all elaboration is correctly within the spherocytosis disease article. I copied the definition across to wiktionary, but am unsure what next I should do in wikipedia:
David Ruben 21:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Generally an article about a real thing is never a dicdef for deletion. However it may be desirable to merge a very small article into the one with broader context. See how I've done this: Spherocytosis. mikka (t)
Would it be possible to get a speedy deletion tag for non-notable website advertisements. The criteria for including web-sites in their own seperate Wiki page seems to have an easy to apply threshhold. Specifically this would be useful for pages such as Potterish, an entry for a webpage of a small Harry Potter fanclub. (which is already listed in harry potter fanclubs). It might also be nice to have something similar for product adverts, at least products which are currently unknown and ungoogleable, a VfD simply doesn't need to take place. -- Darkfred Talk to me 13:25, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
I want to be able to speedy articles of the calibre of AR!, which doesn't meet any of the current speedy criteria. Perhaps an additional speedy criterion should be Ultra-low Notability - something which is transparently unencyclopedic, but not quite patent nonsense. Similarly, transparent advertising could also be speediable. Rd232 22:21, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
There seems to be some confusion about the policy that states that a redundant image "does not include pictures that are merely similar, such as JPEG versions of PNG images". So I added the line "or any other picture that has been saved in a different image file format" to make it more clear. If you can make it more clear, be my guest. The point, as I recall, is that different file formats each have their own pros and cons (which are listed on WP:IUP#Format), and thus when you convert an image from JPEG to PNG, some of the resolution and quality may change. That is why they are not candidates for speedy. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 16:42, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
The only really good criterion for speedy deletion is oops. That is, I created a page by mistake, and ask for it to be deleted. Nobody else has the right to pass summary judgement -- although any editor may edit any page to remove questionable content. There are a small number of other cases in which speedy may be called for, but these should be few and far between, not an everyday occurance.
Many pages are created that ought not be; this can be controlled in other ways -- ways completely outside any process of mechanical deletion. Contentious content must be dealt with by outcome of Community consensus -- not by a handful of overactive editors and abusive admins.
I don't doubt that many see their actions as both thankless and noble; I'm sorry that I do not. At best, well-intentioned deletion papers over serious weaknesses of our overall editing mechanisms; at worst, it affords a cloak of respectibility under which evil deletionists operate without check or balance.
Whenever any editor dares to ram through yet another addition to CSD, let it be known that my vote is opposed. — Xiong 熊 talk * 03:25, 2005 August 26 (UTC)
/me loves what Harmil said personally. Redwolf24 ( talk) 04:00, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
Currently, all pages using the template Template:Transwikied and Deleted are candidates for speedy deletion:
Umm...so... shall we go ahead and delete these 100+ talk pages, and put the template up for deletion? Or add an exception to the criteria? I'd prefer the former. Coffee 10:25, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Extensive discussion around "re-created content" and speedy immunity:
This should be centralised to avoid repitition. So:
Order of events:
brenneman (t) (c) 13:54, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
I mentioned at the time that this was a serious weakness of this CSD, although I believe I eventually supported it. I recall the explanations at the time saying that G4 was not overriden by other CSDs. That is, if speedied and remade, other CSDs can still apply. So if we go "nnbio-speedy-remake-nnbio-", it's ok to nn-bio it again — G4 does not withstand. This has been a point of contention since that time, and should be clarified. I personally do not think that an article should acquire this kind of immunity by being deleted! We should not give the trolls back their foodbowl just because they put the same thing in it twice. I would absolutely support the removal of the clause as Encephalon suggests. - Splash 17:18, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
It does seem inconsistent, doesn't it? One more way to look at it is as follows. The phrase "[This does not apply to]...content that was speedily deleted..." seems to have been written into G4 to protect something. What? If it is true that any previously speedied article can be speedied again (if substantially identical), then it is difficult to see what that phrase is for. In the AfD discussion I took in good faith that that phrase actually means something; the rationale I attempted at AfD seemed one plausible explanation, if one accepts the premise that the phrase is actually intended to protect something and is not a mistake. In practice, it is almost certainly not applied by any sysop doing SD work. (Can you imagine deleting "unfdsuafnklksyhcdfd" once, coming back to find it again, and having to send it to AfD?) As far as I can see, that clause is logically incompatible with the rest of CSD if we accept the meaning of the third sentence in G4 that is here advanced. (You can draw the Venn diagrams to see). So it seems to me that one must go: either the third sentence in G4, or that clause in the second. Keeping both is illogical. The decision must be made very wisely— one choice, if enforced, will bring CSD to a complete, grinding halt.— encephalon | ζ 17:27:30, 2005-09-04 (UTC)
My understanding is that the clause was added to emphasize that a prior improper speedy cannot be used as justification for speedying a recreation. Of course, the original speedy was not according to the deletion policy, but the fact is they happen all the time anyway. :( — Cryptic (talk) 18:34, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
- Splash 18:51, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello guys. Splash's link was very helpful (thanks); it precisely confirmed my suspicions as to why this criterion was written this way. He is also correct that the very things we're discussing now were also raised at the time (by some you too, eg Cryptic :)). I think there were a lot of good intentions behind this version of G4, but, IMHO, some errors were made in the actual writing, such that it's giving rise to the logical inconsistencies that we're discussing here. Will post a modest proposal on possible solutions soon.— encephalon | ζ 19:15:10, 2005-09-04 (UTC)
Look at all of the unnecessary verbiage this has generated. It boils down to whether or not an admin can speedy delete an article. If they can, they can. If they can't, they can't, but WP:CDS says they can. Encephalon is now saying that, once an article is speedy deleted, if it's recreated, even if with the exact same wording, an admin can't redelete it, it has to go to AfD. But that's a complete violation of the trend to try to cut down on the mess that is AfD by expanding the CSD rules. I, personally, intend to continue to delete recreated speedies, and if you don't like it, take me to RfAr. There's always VfU, which is only minimally used these days. Zoe 20:35, September 4, 2005 (UTC)
I don't imagine that this was the intention. That delete/restore conflict would be avoided if the article were either taken to VfU or the person who restores the article placed it immediately on VfD and notifies the deleting admin, as per existing policy. That seems to be an entirely different basket of fish from
Ring Foo's recreation.
brenneman
(t)
(c) 00:57, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
This discussion has been helpful, and I thank Aaron for responding to some of the questions raised on the Cam Wilson AfD, and the excellent perspectives offered by him, Splash, Blackcap, Cryptic, DES and Zoe (who, while I think may have misunderstood me here, has always been an astute sysop I have learned much from and have a great liking for. And Zoe, I plead guilty to verbiage :). Can you forgive me?).
There appears to be a logical inconsistency in the G4 criterion, and it may cause some confusion as it did in this AfD and apparently has in the past in others. This was of course entirely unintended (no one intends confusion, even when they create it), and if we can find a way of expressing less confusingly the intent of those who passed the rule, it may be worth looking into. I do not know if this can be done, but maybe we can try having a shot at it, eh?
It is helpful first to understand the true intent of the G4 rule. Why do we have it? In its fundamental, most essential form, the G4 rule simply means this: if an article was found unsuitable for WP in the past, and you then find an exact re-creation of it, you do not have to go through the whole rigmarole of formally discussing it again before deleting it once more.
G4 is recognition that the community has dealt with a problem before, come to a decision, and doesn't need to expend resources to reach that same decision every time the problem is recreated. If the article is substantially improved, however, or very different, then common sense dictates it can be considered anew in the usual fashion.
That's it. That's the core of G4. I wouldn't be surprised if in its very earliest manifestations the rule was actually stated similarly to the above.
What were the concerns that drove the newest proposal? I cannot be completely sure since I wasn't involved in creating it, but from reading the pages Splash has helpfully pointed out (and from listening to Aaron on the Wilson AfD!) I think the changes were driven by two things:
I think they were very successful with 1, and slightly less so with 2.
We all know what the beast currently looks like. At the risk of seriously pissing off the lot of you, I'm going to ennumerate them here:
G4. (Sysops may immediately delete a page [if it is])
The first sentence, (i.), is not confusing. It sets out the rule and and introduces the changes in (1.) that they wanted. Good stuff.
With (ii.), the problems begin. It says that this rule does not apply to previous speedies. That is, it removes the authority of G4 over articles that were deleted in the past via speedies. This is problematic. The reason it is is discussed at length above. Briefly, G4 is the CSD rule that empowers an admin to delete (again) something that was previously appropriately deleted, without having to use AfD; the clause however says that the G4 rule does not apply to previous speedies. This implies that an admin cannot speedily delete a previous speedy, but (urgh!) must bring it to AfD. Why was this rule written this way?
The question was asked in the proposal, and the answer provided by a thoughtful wikipedian of great experience:
It sounds like the concern for potential abuse of power led to the creation of (ii.); and then (iii.) was created to provide a "window". In truth, there is a slight miscommunication in the above answer: any article that is deleted is always deleted because it violates a fundamental WP rule about articles, which all derive from the fundamental laws of the Wiki ( NOR, V, NOT etc). An article is never deleted because it is recreated; it is always deleted because it is lousy. G4 is merely a method to delete articles quickly whose lousiness has already been determined in the past. Therefore, the correct use of G4 always obtains its authority from another SD or WP:DEL criterion. It is true that this is not always clear, and as DES points out, there are editors who might abuse G4 without understanding that principal. But the solution that was proposed co-opted the misunderstanding instead of clarifying it, and coupled with the "abuse of power" concern noted above, was responsible for the form of G4 we have today.
Is there a way we can re-write G4 to remove its problems, yet accurately state the intentions embodied in the proposal? Possibly. I'm wondering if a simple rendition that just states what is expected of sysops might work. In truth, what the proposers were trying to do was get admins faced with a recreated speedy to make sure that it indeed violates a CSD (ie. that it was properly speedied the last time). How about:
Is this ok?
One objection might be: what if the first deletion was a valid speedy, but then the editor rewrote it properly. Does that mean it can be speedied under G4 just because the last speedy was valid? Answer: no. If it was rewritten to such an extent that it met previous objections, it is not a "substantially identical copy" and the entire G4 rule does not even apply. It should be considered anew on its merits. Remember G4 only concerns virtually identical copies of the first deleted article.
Another objection might be the issue that underlies the current problems. Let's say someone writes an article on George Washington (ie. eminently notable, non-deletable etc). Level 6 rogue sysop comes along and speedily deletes (doesn't like the editor's IP, or something). IP man recreates. L6RS re-SDs, then goes on wikivacation. IP man recreates again. You come along. Is there a way you can, in good faith, re-delete the article by claiming that the CSD it violated was G4? I don't think so, because when you apply (iii.) you will see that the previous SDs were not appropriate.
Is it "instruction creep"? I personally don't think so. I have removed two things (the problematic clause in the second sentence, and the whole third sentence), and introduced one. Tried to write it in the simplest version that will still retain meaning. There are many different possible versions (eg. removing "appropriately deleted" in (iii) and inserting "validly" in (i)), and it's also possible to simplify (iii) further. I felt maybe I'd just make this suggestion, and you guys could summarily dismiss it out of hand discuss this or other ways of approaching "the problem." Cheers—
encephalon |
ζ 05:05:11, 2005-09-05 (UTC)
Great explanation, good idea, go to it. JesseW, the juggling janitor 10:27, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Bravo. - brenneman (t) (c) 11:27, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Goodness. I go to bed for a few hours, and look what happens! I think that's a excellent redraft backed by crystal clear reasoning. Some logical linking between the clauses would be useful, though: VfU is prone to lawyering over things otherwise. So, I think we should reverse (ii) and (iii), and add to the end of (i) "on the proviso that", or similar. But this is a welcome clarification of the question. Also, the CSDs are for meeting rather than contravening. Thus, taking the above suggestions into account as well, we have:
I have concerns over the potential for wheel warring over (iii) (e.g. "I am the Lone Gun admin, and must undelete this article to save the Wiki from Anarchy. Look, it says so here.". Lone Gun is then able to preclude any re-deletion by the original admin because the undeletion is in accordance with the undeletion policy as interpreted. On past performance, there's a fair chance the original admin will opt to overlook this fact. However, that is a point that is under discussion at VfU and is really VfU's problem rather than CSDs. - Splash 13:17, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
I always understood the original wording to mean exactly that. This latest version seems to say exactly the same thing in more words. But if the current wording is really unclear, I suppose we must amend it. Rossami (talk) 13:31, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
JesseW, thanks for your comments (and congrats on sysophood!). Please feel free to suggest edits to this if you'd like.
Aaron, glad you like it. Do you forsee any problematic interpretations? Your (and Rossami's) perspectives as long-time admins will be valuable. Incidentally, Aaron, you played a big part in this. If we hadn't talked at the Wilson AfD, I would not have realized what the current rule was intended to mean, although I always thought it was oddly phrased. (By the way, if the above ends up being judged a lousy suggestion, we're all blaming you:))
Rossami, thanks for the thoughts. I'm not at all surprised that you always understood the current rule as it was meant to be understood— you have a deserved reputation for being able to make difficult deletion decisions and having an intimate understanding of policy. This exercise however is aimed at making it a little easier for those who are not Rossamis, Rossami. I'm not sure I'd say that the two versions say the same thing; I think it is possible to interpret the current version to mean what the proposed version tries to say simply and explicitly.
G4 is a rule that pertains to a subset of all WP articles: those that were previously created and deleted. In the currently used scheme, an attempt is made to exclude one subset of this subset (ie. articles that were created and then speedily deleted) from the purview of the rule, but yet also make it possible for precisely the action engendered by the rule to apply to this very subset (ie. the speedy deletion of previously speedied articles). Hence, the abstract gyrations that had to be made.
In the proposal under discussion here, an operational definition is used. The rule is stated, followed by the desired actions. This makes it, I think, simple to understand and to use. The basic scheme is like this:
This is simplicity itself (methinks). There is no confusion as to whether a previously speedied article can be speedied again, etc., etc., as what should be done is stated pretty clearly.
Splash, my man! I love your suggestions. The reversal of (ii) and (iii) is good. I considered it; the reason I didn't put it in was the "This" in the second sentence (third in yours) was in reference to the rule, and I didn't want it too far removed. But the way you've written it is fine, since it has "on the proviso that". Incidentally, I wonder if that phrase will be objected to as (ostensibly) an example of needless wikilawyering. Or something. If I had thought of it my first instinct would have been proviso quod; maybe "provided that"? Although grammatically it isn't smooth. I personally have absolutely no problem with your version. "Meeting" v "contravening": superb catch. Critical too— it's exactly the opposite meaning. Lol. I've gotten into the habit of saying "X contravenes WP:Y" on AfD, and that carried over.
Regarding the VfU issue, if I understand what you're saying correctly, that's really not a CSD problem, is it? It's a VfU problem. If Lone Gun says, "I must undelete this article to save the Wiki from Anarchy," he can then point to CSD to stave off a speedy challenge; the problem however is not that the CSD bars challenge, it's that post-AfD conflicts presently occur in a somewhat policy-free zone (which may or may not be a bad thing from the point of view of a Wiki, although I happen to think it is). Furthermore, the reason we've been discussing this rule and the above proposal is purely to make an existing rule clear: I had no intention when I started to make any kind of change to the intent of the rule. That is however what we'd be doing if we took out the "does not apply to undeleted articles" caveat. — encephalon έγκέφαλος 07:36:05, 2005-09-06 (UTC)
Including Wikilinks we have:
So if we agree on that, we need a friendly admin to come along and paste it in over the protection for us. I'll drop the Pump a note too, but this is a clarification rather than a change of wording, so there hopefully shouldn't be any problem.
Splash, two things:
Finally, I'm not certain of the correct procedure to have the text changed. Does this require the attention of more eyes? Administrative or bureaucratic ones? I take it there's no need for a poll, because this clarifies meaning rather than changes intent, but can we confirm that? Thanks everyone.— encephalon έγκέφαλος 15:32:14, 2005-09-06 (UTC)
Not sure we need to be this specific. If someone kept recreating a speedied article, it could be redeleted under the previous speedy grounds. If I wasn't sure, I'd list it on AfD. In extreme cases (such as recreation of an attack, threat, obscenity, egregious copyright violation or defamation) the article could be protected from recreation. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 16:15, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
There will always be questions about whether a recreated article is substantively different from another. When in doubt, a conscientious sysop will put it on AfD. If the sysop of your choice doesn't agree, find another one who will do it. I don't think trying to spell it out helps; people who don't think a particular recreation is valid probably aren't speedying because the rules say they can, but because they genuinely believe the recreation is no better than the original. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 16:53, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Nandesuka, I can't speak for other sysops, but I've taken a few undeleted bad speedies through AfD when undeletion was disputed, and have found they are almost invariably kept at AfD. In any case I don't see a problem with taking a speedy that is disputed between sysops to AfD where the issue is decided by consensus. The guiding principle of deletion policy is: when in doubt, don't delete. An article that appears to me like it should be deleted, belongs on AfD unless there is in fact a speedy criterion that applies. If I think a speedy policy applies and another sysop doesn't, I'll list it on AfD anyhow. There are borderline cases and AfD is specifically designed for making such decisions. I just don't see a problem here. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 17:26, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
As almost everyone seems to agree with these well-reasoned clarifications, and as this does not change any policy, no polling is required, "Feel free to update the page as needed".
brenneman
(t)
(c) 23:53, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Excuse me for being dense. I didn't realise that the article had been protected. I've no idea why or when this was done.
As you're undoubtedly aware, I'm not the only admin on Wikipedia. But if you want to persuade people that you're making suggestions in good faith, might I suggest that you refrain from attempts to needle people? -- Tony Sidaway Talk 01:41, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I understood the debate as being mostly closed. I also understood Tony's concerns to be more a case of "Well, what for?" as opposed to "For god's sake no!". If I was incorrect in these, I do apologise. I suppose there is no rush, but unless someone has a concrete and actionable objections, I think that rough consensus indicates these changes should be made. (Although I'd take out at least one comma!)
brenneman
(t)
(c) 00:08, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
In the absence of any further discussion: Changes made, one comma removed. - brenneman (t) (c) 01:40, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
And should be archived as soon as we tie off the G4 discussion. (I.e. asking for anyone who objects to me archiving tomorrow to say so!)
brenneman
(t)
(c) 00:05, 7 September 2005 (UTC)