![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | → | Archive 25 |
As noted by Fireplace the 'Secondary categorization rule' of WP:SUBCAT does apply perfectly here: When an article is put into a subcategory based on an attribute that is not the first thing most people would think of to categorise it, it should be left in the parent category as well. (My attempts to explain this early were clumsy, sorry about that, but this is spot on.) -- Kleinzach 10:36, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Along the lines of these and in light of the comments here (A Musing) and here (Mak), I think a substantial List of years in opera article, with 401 associated articles (being now in the 400th anniversary of L'Orfeo), would be a valuable educational and navigation tool. Unless there are objections, I'll get started. Obviously such a project will never be complete, but given the excellent list articles we already have, it shouldn't be too hard to populate the pages. Fireplace 00:48, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Is Category:Multiple-language operas for operas where the libretto uses more than one language, or for operas where the libretto is monolingual but has been translated into one or more other languages?
Either way, could somebody clarify the situation in the category text? -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 14:07, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
A very large number of opera librettos have been translated into other languages, and it would be pointless to include them in this category. I've looked through the individual operas in the category, and all of them except two have librettos that use more than one language. The exceptions are Satyagraha, which is entirely in Sanskrit, and Obsitos, where, apparently, revised versions were in German rather than Hungarian. So the former is monolingual and the latter can be categorised as both Hungarian-language and German-language (see Don Carlos for a precedent).-- GuillaumeTell 16:12, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I am currently changing the format for roles to frame format – hopefully all our future articles will be using frames for roles (refer Puccini’s articles). It is best if we could standardize the format. But there are many “empty” info like the singers name, voice range and also the conductor. Hopefully somebody could fill them up - Jay 13:00, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Please could someone translate the pages in this list http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polskie_teatry_operowe and then place them in Category:Opera houses in Poland and put them at List_of_opera_houses#Poland which only has one opera house! Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 18:49, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
We would need to decide on names/placenames - English or not - before creating articles. I don't have strong feelings either way but it needs to be consistent. (This is the existing Opera Project rule for opera titles (NB not organizations as such): English names are normally preferred for eastern European, Russian and Scandinavian operas unless the title is a simple proper name. This is for practical reasons.) -- Kleinzach 02:06, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
-- Folantin 10:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've created the stub for Opera Śląska, Bytom. I haven't created any redirects so it should be easy to move it to "Silesian Opera, Bytom" if that's a better location. I haven't added any categories either. It's still a stub but there is more information if you follow the link on the page we can make use of. Cheers. -- Folantin 12:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Please place your name next to each article you intend to translate
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teatr_Wielki_w_Warszawie
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warszawska_Opera_Kameralna
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teatr_Wielki_w_%C5%81odzi
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teatr_Wielki_im._Stanis%C5%82awa_Moniuszki_w_Poznaniu
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opera_Krakowska
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opera_%C5%9Al%C4%85ska
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opera_Wroc%C5%82awska
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teatr_Muzyczny_w_Lublinie
It may be a good idea to crosspost this to WP:PWNB and suggest collaboration.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 20:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
There is an article on Vocal range explaining the (basically Anglo-American) classification of voices in contrast to Fach explaining the German system, which originates from the German Wikipedia. (I have had Fach on my watchlist because every month or two sometimes tries to translate all the terms into English and then transform it into a second Vocal range.) A new editor User:Operalala has now developed a third article called Voice type (formerly Vocal weight), pretty much covering the same area as Vocal range (but referring to Fach rather than Italian voice types).
There is even more proliferation on individual voice types. For example we have Soprano, and also Soubrette, Lyric soprano, Lyric coloratura soprano, Dramatic coloratura soprano, Spinto soprano, Dramatic soprano, and Wagnerian soprano, largely using material from the main soprano article, also a List of famous sopranos and a List of notable sopranos (another User:Operalala creation). (I haven't even dared look at the tenor articles . . .)
It all needs merging and cleaning up. Does this subject interest anyone? We probably need two or three interested editors to sort it all out. -- Kleinzach 04:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Comments above by Mak (about difficulties in navigating categories) prompted me to look at whether category navigation could be improved.
Two points occurred to me: the first was that when looking at a category, it's easy to find its sub-categories to several levels by clicking on the [+] button beside each category to expand it ... but that doesn't work when you want to look back up to parent categories.
On the categories by year, I have rolled them out with navigation links to other years (see e.g. Category:1906 operas), and the decade categories include a template which produces links to each of the by-year-categories (see e.g. Category:1890s operas). This makes it quite easy to jump between years categories.
However, it isn't easy to get from there to the other opera sub-categories, so I thought that a small navigation box might help. Here's what I came up with:
Opera categories |
By composer ·
By genre ·
By language ·
By year (
16th c. ·
17th c. ·
18th c. ·
19th c. ·
20th c. ·
21st c.) ·
Operettas See also: Opera genres · Musicals · Oratorios |
For demonstration purposes, I have added it to Category:1837 operas, Category:French-language operas and Category:Opera buffa.
Do people like the idea? It's implemented via a template, so once it's rolled out across the categories, it can easily be changed to reflect any reorganisation of the category structure. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 13:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Opera categories |
By composer ·
By genre ·
By language ·
By year (
16th c. ·
17th c. ·
18th c. ·
19th c. ·
20th c. ·
21st c.) ·
Operettas See also: Librettists · Composers · Opera genres · Musicals · Oratorios |
I'd like to explain - in as much dispassionate detail as possible - why this box (immediately above) doesn't fly.
1. The Opera categories link doesn't go to the opera categories in general, but to the Opera category which is top-level. It doesn't show opera categories as such.
2. Both the By genre link and Opera genres point to the same page.
3. Operettas appears in bold in the middle of the table despite being a low-level genre subcategry (which should be with the other genres.
4. Musicals are outside the scope of this project. They are covered by the Musical Theatre Project.
5. Likewise Oratorios in general are outside the scope of this project. They belong to th Classical Music Project.
I propose we use the existing Opera categories box (with the salmon-coloured bar above) as the basis for any futures boxes. It is clear and accurate, already approved, and can be adapted and reduced in size as necessary.
The structure/categories of the Opera Project are complicated - a bit like a science project. There are a lot of technicalities that have to taken into account - and checked with reference books. In order to understand the structure we need to be both familiar with the subject of opera, and with the actual state of the articles on WP. I've been working on this for the past two and a half years and I've been grateful for the advice of a group of scholarly editors while I've been doing it. -- Kleinzach 00:43, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | → | Archive 25 |
As noted by Fireplace the 'Secondary categorization rule' of WP:SUBCAT does apply perfectly here: When an article is put into a subcategory based on an attribute that is not the first thing most people would think of to categorise it, it should be left in the parent category as well. (My attempts to explain this early were clumsy, sorry about that, but this is spot on.) -- Kleinzach 10:36, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Along the lines of these and in light of the comments here (A Musing) and here (Mak), I think a substantial List of years in opera article, with 401 associated articles (being now in the 400th anniversary of L'Orfeo), would be a valuable educational and navigation tool. Unless there are objections, I'll get started. Obviously such a project will never be complete, but given the excellent list articles we already have, it shouldn't be too hard to populate the pages. Fireplace 00:48, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Is Category:Multiple-language operas for operas where the libretto uses more than one language, or for operas where the libretto is monolingual but has been translated into one or more other languages?
Either way, could somebody clarify the situation in the category text? -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 14:07, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
A very large number of opera librettos have been translated into other languages, and it would be pointless to include them in this category. I've looked through the individual operas in the category, and all of them except two have librettos that use more than one language. The exceptions are Satyagraha, which is entirely in Sanskrit, and Obsitos, where, apparently, revised versions were in German rather than Hungarian. So the former is monolingual and the latter can be categorised as both Hungarian-language and German-language (see Don Carlos for a precedent).-- GuillaumeTell 16:12, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I am currently changing the format for roles to frame format – hopefully all our future articles will be using frames for roles (refer Puccini’s articles). It is best if we could standardize the format. But there are many “empty” info like the singers name, voice range and also the conductor. Hopefully somebody could fill them up - Jay 13:00, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Please could someone translate the pages in this list http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polskie_teatry_operowe and then place them in Category:Opera houses in Poland and put them at List_of_opera_houses#Poland which only has one opera house! Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 18:49, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
We would need to decide on names/placenames - English or not - before creating articles. I don't have strong feelings either way but it needs to be consistent. (This is the existing Opera Project rule for opera titles (NB not organizations as such): English names are normally preferred for eastern European, Russian and Scandinavian operas unless the title is a simple proper name. This is for practical reasons.) -- Kleinzach 02:06, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
-- Folantin 10:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've created the stub for Opera Śląska, Bytom. I haven't created any redirects so it should be easy to move it to "Silesian Opera, Bytom" if that's a better location. I haven't added any categories either. It's still a stub but there is more information if you follow the link on the page we can make use of. Cheers. -- Folantin 12:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Please place your name next to each article you intend to translate
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teatr_Wielki_w_Warszawie
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warszawska_Opera_Kameralna
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teatr_Wielki_w_%C5%81odzi
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teatr_Wielki_im._Stanis%C5%82awa_Moniuszki_w_Poznaniu
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opera_Krakowska
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opera_%C5%9Al%C4%85ska
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opera_Wroc%C5%82awska
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teatr_Muzyczny_w_Lublinie
It may be a good idea to crosspost this to WP:PWNB and suggest collaboration.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 20:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
There is an article on Vocal range explaining the (basically Anglo-American) classification of voices in contrast to Fach explaining the German system, which originates from the German Wikipedia. (I have had Fach on my watchlist because every month or two sometimes tries to translate all the terms into English and then transform it into a second Vocal range.) A new editor User:Operalala has now developed a third article called Voice type (formerly Vocal weight), pretty much covering the same area as Vocal range (but referring to Fach rather than Italian voice types).
There is even more proliferation on individual voice types. For example we have Soprano, and also Soubrette, Lyric soprano, Lyric coloratura soprano, Dramatic coloratura soprano, Spinto soprano, Dramatic soprano, and Wagnerian soprano, largely using material from the main soprano article, also a List of famous sopranos and a List of notable sopranos (another User:Operalala creation). (I haven't even dared look at the tenor articles . . .)
It all needs merging and cleaning up. Does this subject interest anyone? We probably need two or three interested editors to sort it all out. -- Kleinzach 04:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Comments above by Mak (about difficulties in navigating categories) prompted me to look at whether category navigation could be improved.
Two points occurred to me: the first was that when looking at a category, it's easy to find its sub-categories to several levels by clicking on the [+] button beside each category to expand it ... but that doesn't work when you want to look back up to parent categories.
On the categories by year, I have rolled them out with navigation links to other years (see e.g. Category:1906 operas), and the decade categories include a template which produces links to each of the by-year-categories (see e.g. Category:1890s operas). This makes it quite easy to jump between years categories.
However, it isn't easy to get from there to the other opera sub-categories, so I thought that a small navigation box might help. Here's what I came up with:
Opera categories |
By composer ·
By genre ·
By language ·
By year (
16th c. ·
17th c. ·
18th c. ·
19th c. ·
20th c. ·
21st c.) ·
Operettas See also: Opera genres · Musicals · Oratorios |
For demonstration purposes, I have added it to Category:1837 operas, Category:French-language operas and Category:Opera buffa.
Do people like the idea? It's implemented via a template, so once it's rolled out across the categories, it can easily be changed to reflect any reorganisation of the category structure. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 13:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Opera categories |
By composer ·
By genre ·
By language ·
By year (
16th c. ·
17th c. ·
18th c. ·
19th c. ·
20th c. ·
21st c.) ·
Operettas See also: Librettists · Composers · Opera genres · Musicals · Oratorios |
I'd like to explain - in as much dispassionate detail as possible - why this box (immediately above) doesn't fly.
1. The Opera categories link doesn't go to the opera categories in general, but to the Opera category which is top-level. It doesn't show opera categories as such.
2. Both the By genre link and Opera genres point to the same page.
3. Operettas appears in bold in the middle of the table despite being a low-level genre subcategry (which should be with the other genres.
4. Musicals are outside the scope of this project. They are covered by the Musical Theatre Project.
5. Likewise Oratorios in general are outside the scope of this project. They belong to th Classical Music Project.
I propose we use the existing Opera categories box (with the salmon-coloured bar above) as the basis for any futures boxes. It is clear and accurate, already approved, and can be adapted and reduced in size as necessary.
The structure/categories of the Opera Project are complicated - a bit like a science project. There are a lot of technicalities that have to taken into account - and checked with reference books. In order to understand the structure we need to be both familiar with the subject of opera, and with the actual state of the articles on WP. I've been working on this for the past two and a half years and I've been grateful for the advice of a group of scholarly editors while I've been doing it. -- Kleinzach 00:43, 20 May 2007 (UTC)