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I'd be interested in rotating out of the maintenance stuff i do on NRHP-related disambiguation pages and list-articles in some parts of the country that i watchlist. I wonder sometimes if Sanfranman59 or Nyttend or others with a lot of NRHP list-articles on their watchlists would also like to rotate out. I've thought that we could split up NRHP material by geographic areas and allow an annual or other periodic changeover, like WikiProject Military History does, but maybe not with its formal elections process. One technical difficulty is that it might be hard to transfer responsibility to a new volunteer, who might not take on a full watchlist that you have built up.
For addressing Biography of Living Persons issues, a new innovation has come up: "tranches" of articles to watch. See User:Tony Sidaway/Living people/tranches. A volunteer can take on a swath of listed articles to watch, easily. This method, with a bot run, could be used to set up NRHP watchlists that could be divvied up differently and rotated. -- doncram ( talk) 16:04, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
(this was a subsection within "Please change the standard citation to omit the link" --
doncram (
talk)
18:32, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
In the above "There are 36,000 articles in WikiProject NRHP now though," answers a question I've had for a long time - What percentage of NRHP sites have articles? The 36,000 may be a bit high for NRHP sites, as there are a few non-site articles in the Project. The number of sites is about 84,000 (?), which would give 3/7ths or about 42%. It seems high - maybe all the county lists make a big difference (2,000 or -2.5% ???).
The other long time question I have is how many of the sites are illustrated. This number could be more or less than the number of articles, since many sites are only illustrated on the county list articles, and not all articles are illustrated. Any idea on how to get this percentage? Smallbones ( talk) 19:37, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
I know it's rather vain, but I like to finish fully-illustrated lists. See National Register of Historic Places listings in Gloucester County, New Jersey, with 1 missing photo.
We had an extensive discussion recently about Address Restricted sites and photos of them, but I didn't understand the advice on this matter as being practical or specific.
I don't know that this is an archeological site - in fact New Jersey makes learning anything about their sites difficult to find anything about - but it is AR. Should I list this county as fully illustrated? Smallbones ( talk) 18:53, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
BTW totaled up the FI list and there are exactly 100 counties (or other geographical areas) and 3120 pix on all these lists. Smallbones ( talk) 01:11, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
(out) The image is on Commons now. I had to rename it as File:Address restricted.PNG, as there was already a file named File:Address Restricted.png. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:46, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
I noticed on the NRHP that there appears to be 85,822 properties listed on the website but only about 36000 have articles in WP. Is there a list or something somewhere that shows which ones still need to be created? -- Kumioko ( talk) 18:34, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
I noticed the following dated from this summer Template:NRHP-PD which gives
This article includes text in the public domain from the National Register of Historic Places.
which would be useful if we were copying anything directly from the NRHP to avoid plagiarism problems. I'm just wondering whether there is any useful information that can be copied directly from the NRHP that is public domain?
The obvious question is whether the nomination forms are PD. I'd argue that the are since they are administrative rulings of the government. The principle is essentially the same as for why court cases can't be copyrighted. The nominations themselves ARE the National Register, and the National Register itself is a Federal government document that everybody has the right to access, copy, etc. Nevertheless, I've tried this argument before regarding photos in the NRHP and it has been rejected here. (Are photos somehow different?) The counterargument was that the photos were produced by individuals who had copyright before they submitted them to the NRHP. Does the same reasoning apply to the written government form (the nomination)?
Before anybody goes and tries to copy a nomination directly, I have to say that this would in general make for an awful article. Too much editing would be needed to make for a readable article. But in some cases it could be useful, particularly info from summaries. I'll put a particular case below, which some may think muddies the water for the general issue. Smallbones ( talk) 19:16, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
In general consensus has been to avoid using either text or images. Both are in many cases prepared by private individuals, consultants or state officials who are not working for the Federal government either as employees or as contractors. Therefore, regardless of what's posted by the NPS in the fine print at the bottom of the screen, their work is not PD because the NPS has no authority to waive their rights. I've made specific inquiry to the NPS about images, and their answer is that it's the responsibility of the end user to determine copyright/public domain status, and that it is very unlikely that material posted at NPS Focus can be used in a free-content environment; the same condition would certainly apply to text. Acroterion (talk) 19:34, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
This has been a banner month for fully illustrated NRHP lists (see project page). I count 7 FI lists completed in November. Dear to my heart is National Register of Historic Places listings in Central Chicago completed by User:Alanscottwalker with 113 listings (6th largest among FI lists). Central Chicago is one of America's architectural jewels and certainly deserves a FI list. User:Bobak topped up large lists in Hennepin and Ramsey Counties, MN (which have a couple of nice grain elevators!). New York State has several - too many to track down all the attributions - probably by User:Pubdog and the usual NY NRHP mafia. User:Ammodramus is keeping up his usual pace in Nebraska. User:Royalbroil completed National_Register_of_Historic_Places_listings_in_Wisconsin#Green_Lake_County. Apologies for anybody I left off. Smallbones ( talk) 17:46, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
The NRHP/NHL article Monadnock Building is now a Featured Article candidate. People on this project may be interested in the review. -- Nasty Housecat ( talk) 21:42, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
Where is everybody getting the links of images of NRHP sites from the official NRHP website? Because every time I try, I keep getting the error message "The PDF file for this National Register record has not yet been digitized." I really need this for two sites; Wakefield Upper Depot, and any historic district that Wilson (Amtrak station) might be in, assuming the station is in a historic district. ---- DanTD ( talk) 00:12, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Hi, and thank you for your feedback on the Version 0.8 selection. Unfortunately, I can't see any of the articles being added for now - we look at a lot of stats for judging the articles, but they usually have to be pretty major/mainstream topics to be included. The FAs listed all seem to be fairly specialized. If you know of any specific reasons that the stats may be wrong, or if I've overlooked something, please let me know. Likewise, with the articles you propose removing: These are often crosslisted with other WikiProjects, and may well have been included for those projects' reasons. That means we typically need a strong, specific reason for removing an article, such as gross copyright violations (that occurred on some Wagner operas) or a technical glitch on our part, etc. Please let me know if any of these "to be removed" articles fall into that category. Sorry I couldn't be more positive this time, but I still appreciate the time you've taken to look over our selection. Thanks again, Walkerma ( talk) 05:48, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
I have started a conversation here about the possibility of combining some of the United States related WikiProject Banners into {{ WikiProject United States}}. If you have any comments, questions or suggestions please take a moment and let me know. -- Kumioko ( talk) 04:50, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
This short NRHP stub, by me, is up for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ackerville Baptist Church of Christ. Altair isfar 17:48, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Hi there. We're having a discussion about a few sources including letters by the National Park Service (regarding eligibility and/or listing on the NRHP) as well as letters and photos by a state historical society and their status in articles about historical buildings. These are sources that were found at the Minnesota State Historic Preservation Office and will impact future NRHP articles in Minnesota. It would be nice to set a consensus policy now, as this could easily be a problem elsewhere. If you find this of interest, please take a look at the discussion at Talk:Salvation Army Headquarters (Saint Paul, Minnesota) and let us know your opinion. Thank you. -- Bobak ( talk) 07:53, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
I have submitted a proposal at the Village pump regarding tagging non article items in Wikipedia. Please take a moment and let me know what you think. -- Kumioko ( talk) 02:00, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
We have 36,640 articles tagged by the WikiProject now, including 2,000 list-articles and 3,000 disambiguation pages. There are some NRHP list-articles and individual articles lacking Talk pages and Wikiproject tagging, and there are many articles tagged by us that are not primarily about NRHP-listed places. But, notice this is 1% of 3,483,756 articles in the English wikipedia (per Template:numberofarticles). I think that's pretty amazing, that we have this many articles in progress, where local editors can arrive and add pics and develop material.
We're being translated into Portuguese now, too: see Anexo:Marco Histórico Nacional na Dakota do Sul for the South Dakota NHL list. -- doncram ( talk) 00:24, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
I just discovered that 5 NRHP listings during 2008 were omitted from one county list-article, because its March 1st table-izing used the NRIS version then available, and didn't capture items covered in the March 13, 2009 and still-current version of NRIS. I detailed this out at Talk:National Register of Historic Places listings in Douglas County, Nebraska#Park Avenue Apartment District. How many of our list-articles would the same problem apply to? Also recently Nyttend found several list-articles, including National Register of Historic Places listings in Poughkeepsie, New York which erroneously presented as NRHP-listed, places that in fact were not NRHP-listed in the end due to owner objections. I surmise those are cases where table-izing was done prior to our knowing more about the NRIS codes for owner objection. I think overall we've been rather conscientious, but can't stop all errors. I suppose there are other types of errors of omission and incorrect inclusion that we could have made. Sanfranman59 reports that a new version of NRIS is coming available soon. Is there some way we could use the new version to audit the accuracy of some of our county lists? Should we? -- doncram ( talk) 18:32, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
I just found out that the NRHP portion of the infobox in Bayport Aerodrome has shrunk in half. Can anybody fix this? ---- DanTD ( talk) 02:44, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Having just finished Marion Steam Shovel (Le Roy, New York), and having some pictures of Dipper Dredge No. 3 that I will at some point upload, I'm wondering if we have enough old construction equipment listed on the Register outside of upstate New York to justify a "Construction equipment on the National Register of Historic Places" category (and, by extension, enough created articles). There's got to be a few more out there.
If we do create this, maybe we can also create a higher-level cat along the lines of "Heavy machinery on the National Register of Historic Places" to hold the construction equipment and the locomotives, all to be part of a general "Industry-related listings on the National Register of Historic Places" topic cat I think we could have eventually. Daniel Case ( talk) 23:50, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
A few minutes ago, User:Ebyabe addressed a problem to me; Apparently the Opa-Locka Railroad Station and the Harry Hurt Building have the same address. I have a strong feeling that they're the same place, especially since the picture he took of the Harry Hurt Building looks a lot like a railroad station. ---- DanTD ( talk) 17:03, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Ever now and then I come across a NRHP list with a ship or shipwreck, and frequently the ship's name is given in ALL CAPS. This is because the ancient Federal database lists them that way, presumably because it was not capable of italic text. But is there any reason Wikipedia should copy this practice? If I correct these, will somebody jump down my throat or go around reverting me? Abductive ( reasoning) 12:19, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
I was scrolling through my watchlist and saw that someone put a "citation needed" tag on The Kean--specifically, on the "year built" in the infobox. Adding a citation to the date would be trivially easy: not only is the year given in the NRIS, it's also given in *both* of the other references listed in the article. However, the "citation needed" tag got me thinking: what's the policy on providing a source for the infobox info? I've been assuming the NRIS citation on the NRHP Reference# kind of covers the whole box, but should each fact be seperately sourced? Alternatively, should each fact be mentioned in the article text and sourced *there* instead? Andrew Jameson ( talk) 12:57, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
There are ten shipwrecks listed in the National Register of Historic Places listings in Keweenaw County, Michigan--all of these are from the same MPS, they are all listed as "address restricted," and they're all off Isle Royale (and, I gather, within the boundaries of the Isle Royale National Park). They all have some archaeological importance, which I infer is why they're listed as "address restricted." However, the National Park Service pretty clearly has no objection to letting people know where the wrecks are located. This is the official NPS Isle Royale "scuba diving" page, complete with photographs and desciptions of all ten wrecks, as well as direct links to commercial dive companies one can hire to visit the wrecks. One of these companies is Black Dog Diving, another is Superior Trips; both companies list GPS coordinates of the dive buoys for each wreck. Given that the coords are publically available, and the NPS explicitly allows the public to dive the wrecks, I think it's reasonable to include the coords in the National Register of Historic Places listings in Keweenaw County, Michigan and on the existing individual ship pages. Is there a reason I shouldn't do this? Andrew Jameson ( talk) 19:03, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
A related question that I've been meaning to ask for a while is wondering if a county is considered complete if there are some unphotographed shipwrecks. It would take extraordinary means for an average Wikipedian to photograph a shipwreck that is several miles from shore considering that most of us don't own a boat or have deep-water diving equipment and cameras. Royal broil 21:43, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
Also, there are historical markers on the shore for these things. The Land Tortoise's NHL plaque is onshore as well, and at some point I'll upload a pic of it if I don't hear from the dive group I've contacted, the one whose members discovered it in the first place. Since it's a federal work, the NHL plaque wouldn't create copyright issues with the text. Daniel Case ( talk) 05:42, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
See discussion at Template talk:Infobox NRHP#Meta-template compatible.-- Dudemanfellabra ( talk) 20:28, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
I am slowly, very slowly, coming along with a major expansion of Pike-Pawnee Village Site, an address-restricted archaeological site in Webster County, Nebraska.
The AR designation is very valid, since shiny things have been recovered from the site, and I'll refer to those in the article. However, I'd like to have some kind of map in the infobox, just because the verbal description ("on the Republican River between Guide Rock and Red Cloud in Webster County, Nebraska") wouldn't convey much to a lot of readers.
My inclination is to use the Commons map showing the location of Webster County within Nebraska, and to use it like a district map in the infobox template, with a caption "Webster County, Nebraska" or the like. Does this seem reasonable, or can someone suggest a better approach?
-- Ammodramus ( talk) 22:05, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
|district_map=
parameter as I was reading the beginnings of your comment, and I see that you were thinking the same way I was. If there is any image showing the Republican River, I might go with that, however. Just depends on how specific you want to be without endangering the site.--
Dudemanfellabra (
talk)
23:51, 15 December 2010 (UTC)I've found a couple of sites that don't appear in their county lists, but that appear to be legitimate NRHP listings.
One is the Z.C.B.J. Opera House (Clarkson, Nebraska), which does not appear in National Register of Historic Places listings in Colfax County, Nebraska. It shows up when I look at Colfax County in the NPS Focus site; and it's on the Nebraska State Historical Society's NRHP in Colfax County page. Recent ground-truthing indicates that it's still standing and doesn't appear to have been degraded: see Commons:Category:Z.C.B.J. Opera House (Clarkson, Nebraska). The Elkman tool returns a note: "This property may not actually be listed on the National Register - listing code is DR".
The other site is the East Riley Creek Bridge (not the same as the Riley Creek Bridge), which does not appear in National Register of Historic Places listings in Republic County, Kansas. Both Riley Creek bridges appear under Republic County at the Focus website; both are listed in the Kansas Historical Society's Historic Places in Republic County page. Both bridges are apparently still there, and match the descriptions in their nom forms, available at the KHS page; see Commons:Category:Riley Creek Bridge on 170 (Republic County, Kansas) for Riley Creek Bridge, and Commons:Category:East Riley Creek Bridge on Queen (Republic County, Kansas) for East Riley Creek Bridge. The Elkman tool returns the DR note for East Riley Creek Bridge, but not for Riley Creek Bridge.
Can I add these to their respective list articles, or does this require further investigation and/or discussion and consensus?
-- Ammodramus ( talk) 00:58, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
I notice that about 50 usages of "National Historic District" as a proper noun, linked phrase have crept back into Wikipedia. I think these are all bogus and propose deletion of the term, currently a redirect, at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2010 December 5#National Historic District. Please consider commenting there! -- doncram ( talk) 14:05, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
The NPS has released updated public data files. I'm not sure what date should be used in references for this version. The latest "CERTDATE" in the PROPMAIN table is July 9, for 5 nominations that were pending at the time (four of these were listed August 16 and the other August 23). The CERTDATE for the most recent listed property is June 25 (Main Street Commercial District in Little Rock, AR, announced July 2). I think we should probably use the July 9 date. What do others think?
I'm going to start going through and documenting sites that are listed in multiple jurisdictions, adding them to our list articles as appropriate and accounting for the duplicates in the tally tables. This is something we don't get from the weekly announcements where they only indicate the primary location. I plan to source my additions to this release of the database, so I'd like to come to some consensus on the date.
We may also be able to fill in some missing geocode coordinates using the "spatial" data file. The most recent CERTDATE in this file is May 28. According to the download web page, the Google Earth layers they have available are more accurate than the data in the "spatial" file, but they are only complete through the beginning of 2007. -- sanfranman59 ( talk) 02:02, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
User:Kumioko is suggesting using the next version of NRIS, coming soon, for creating the missing 55,000 NRHP articles. I would like to support that, now, IF certain conditions can be met:
I hope this can be considered as a reasonable proposal and that moderation in discussion can prevail. It should be noted:
-- doncram ( talk) 20:25, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
I would prefer to see them not created by bot but rather do them by hand. A bot will only have minimal information and I keep seeing awesome articles done by hand. When I see a list of redlinks for a county, I'm able to see what needs to be done. Having bot-created articles will mask it. Royal broil 20:58, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
If, Kumioko, you are expecting to create articles as detailed as the 330 West 42nd Street one, you, my friend, are expecting way more than you should from the NRIS database. As Doncram states above, this article (though still quite short in my opinion) is exponentially more complicated and well-structured than a bot running from the NRIS data could create. In all reality, the two examples Doncram shows above – Hughes Manor and St. Luke's Chapel – are about the quality I would expect to come out of a bot.
I am opposed to the creation of these bot-articles solely because of their low quality. "Articles" like Hughes Manor and St. Luke's Chapel are better off redlinked in my opinion until they can have justice done to them. Now if a bot were to come along and be able by some magic pixie dust to create articles of the 330 West 42nd Street quality, I would emphatically support this effort and would devote many hours to making sure it went off without a hitch. Alas, though, a bot is not a magician, so this will not happen any time soon. The best that this bot will be able to spit out is the crud that Doncram has shown above. If you are fine with articles of this quality cluttering up Wikipedia, then by all means go forward with this bot. I, however, will remain vehemently opposed to the idea in its current form.-- Dudemanfellabra ( talk) 04:53, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure that it is good to know where several of you all stand on the hypothetical question of whether you like what a bot would do or not, because I think you're presuming that a bot could only do as well as the Elkman NRHP generator. Negative protestations aside, the fact is editors here do use the Elkman NRHP generator to start articles. I do believe that editor Orlady started one or two NRHP articles with deliberate point not to use it, but editors Acroterion, Ammodramus, Daniel Case, Dudemanfellabra, Pubdog, Royalbroil, Smallbones, and every other NRHP editor do start with Elkman NRHP output when starting articles, I believe. Unfortunately, Elkman is no longer developing the NRHP generator. Elkman has kindly maintained the generator, and provided it at his own website, and it does provide a great service, and I am not at all complaining. We are all volunteers.... But, we can get better starter articles. I think it is crazy to want to start articles at a lower level than can be done, when there are so many to start.
Let's try another question. Please consider National Register of Historic Places listings in Cass County, North Dakota. I was developing and used a semi-automated approach yesterday and today to develop starter articles for about half of its NRHP listings. There were a few articles started already, all i think lacking the NRHP nomination document which is in fact available for almost all of these. I think in the new articles that i started, that there is some good starter information. I used the semi-automated approach to get an article like this first version of Robert Lindemann House and then with another few manual edits i refined the NRHP nom doc reference and developed the article a little bit, resulting in this current version for that one. Don't you think the readers and editors of North Dakota are better served by having some or all of this done? -- doncram ( talk) 15:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
See Talk:Cass Gilbert#NRHP ones for a list of the NRHP-listed Cass Gilbert buildings. I created articles for those lacking, except for 3 Minnesota ones. I've repeatedly heard of this architect, i guess for the Woolworth building and for his deigning to design the railroad station in New Haven, Connecticut. But i had no idea he was a pioneer in warehouse design, for huge reinforced concrete structures such as the Austin, Nichols and Company Warehouse, Brooklyn, the U.S. Army Military Ocean Terminal the Brooklyn Army Terminal that disembarked 85% of U.S. troops during the world war, and R.C. Williams Warehouse, Manhattan.
I am "embarrassed, frustrated, disbelieving, disgusted and woeful" that WikiProject NRHP had not previously done its job, for architect editors and for readers, to creating those articles and more, such as the crucial Cass Gilbert National Register District article. :) Seriously, what to be most concerned about here depends on your perspective, your goals. I think our goals should be to get info out there and to facilitate many other potential editors' continuing work, not to save up topics for us to work on individually as part of a small private club. I prefer Gilbert's massive public works, over a charming boutique cottage for some rich fancy-pants. -- doncram ( talk) 15:46, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Just a note... the community currently frowns on bot created articles. While they are not banned outright, they are strongly discoraged. If you are going to go this route, make sure you follow Wikipedia:Bot policy#Mass article creation. Blueboar ( talk) 16:52, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
I don't know where the "are strongly discouraged" for bot created articles comes from. It's not in Wikipedia:Bot policy#Mass article creation. But this does raise the question of how approval for the bot would be obtained. I'll ask doncram to fill us in on the general strategy/procedure.
I'll also ask folks not to say "I'm completely against bot creation" but rather focus on "What the bot needs to do in order to gain my support." It's pretty clear that a bot that would just take the infobox and create a few sentences from that (or similar) doesn't have general support from editors here. OK - I don't think doncram would go ahead and do that without support. I'll suggest that a bot that could do the following in the manner suggested should have support and ask others to put in their lists.
A bot should:
I think this type of article creation is important because with 500 articles created per week, we could approach "complete coverage" of NRHP sites within 2 years, or perhaps only 100 articles created per week get "complete coverage" within 10 years. Now I'd guess we are doing 20-50 new articles per week. That's 20-50 years.
"Complete coverage" is important if only because of the rotten job the NRHP does in getting its information out on the internet. For large areas of the country a high school student cannot go to any easily searchable database to find basic information on an NRHP site that is right down the street from where he lives. And if he can find that internet site, much of the info provided is essentially unreadable to inexperienced normal human beings. Having a readily available site like Wikipedia that could give 5 or 6 basic pieces of information (architect, date built, date listed, style, etc.) on all but the newest NRHP sites would be a great service to the entire country and would also attract many new editors to Wikipedia who could improve the stubs. Smallbones ( talk) 18:37, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
(outdent) You said: "We don't have to regurgitate everything that is written nicely in a report about one place, when we can just direct a reader to it." –– so why don't we just strip everything out of the Statue of Liberty article and leave a list of links to the references? I'm pretty sure that would agitate a lot of people. The entire point of Wikipedia is to bring all the information from various sources together into a ready-to-read-once format. If a reader gets to an article and just sees a list of links with information, Wikipedia may as well be renamed Google.
We don't add value by putting a link or two on a page; we add value by turning those sources into readily-available information for the average reader to digest. Much the same, a list of sites on what is to most some obscure register commissioned by the government is pointless if all the sites on the list have 2 sentences written about them. The reason I have focused so little on the Lauderdale County list article is that personally I don't really care about it. I've focused on bringing the Meridian, Mississippi article (which mentions the places listed in the context of the history of the city... far more valuable in my opinion than a list) from hardly start quality to now being a GA. When I get the time, I hope to bring it all the way to FA, but that is beside the point. Anyone (including a robot) can make all the redlinks on a list turn blue, and anyone (including a bot) can write two sentences and link to a pdf about a place, but it takes someone with the will to actually discover the history of a place to write a decent article.
The bottom line is that the entire purpose of Wikipedia is to be a self-contained encyclopedia of basically all knowledge – NOT a link directory or a stub farm or a disambiguation free-for-all. Articles are the backbone of Wikipedia. All the other stuff falls into place because of those articles. If we are going to have a bot create anything, it should be articles. And that.. is all I have to say about that.-- Dudemanfellabra ( talk) 02:36, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
Again I'll ask everybody to state what kind of bot they can support. Given the no-bot alternative of having on-average 27,000 sites a year (or more) without an article for 20 years (or more), I'm sure there's something we can agree on. So please just state your "acceptable" bot - alternative, and we'll see if we can do it technically. There's no reason that we can't pull the plug if the bot causes problems, and there's no reason that the bot can't be improved or speeded up if a consensus agrees to it later. A single step would be an improvement. For now it looks like the "holding pen" vs the "virtual holding pen" is the main hangup (and they are perhaps virtually identical?). I also possibly detect a bit of a personality conflict. One thing that I have always liked about this project is that everybody seems to do their own favorite tasks and generally add to the whole project, and very seldom do editors insist that things have to be done one way. And compared to other places on Wikipedia there is very little bickering. I'm sure there is a bot-assisted solution here that will not mortally offend anybody. I'm afraid building in penalties for over-promoting bot generated articles would mortally offend many people's Wiki-sensibilities - even if there was a way to do it under the rules, but WP:AGF and trust in your fellow editors will go a long way. Smallbones ( talk) 01:15, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
Despite some obviously long standing disagreements, I'd think we're almost agreed here on some minimal use of the bot. I'll note that nothing we say about bot-assisted editing can apply to editors who don't use the bot generated material. If they want to create stubs the old-fashioned way, they may according to Wikipedia rules that have been in force forever. I think the point of agreement can be along Dudemanfellabra's lines.
This is not as strict as RoyalBroil would like, and not as much as Doncram wants, but (call me optimistic) I don't think it should "mortally offend" anybody. It also opens up the use of the bot for 1,000s of articles (10,000s?) where we don't have much chance to come up with a solid article, but can at least get the basic facts out. We should schedule a review, say after 6 months or 1,000 bot assisted articles, and check out the technology with some trial runs and complete the bot approval process.
Is everybody at least ok with that? Smallbones ( talk) 16:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
Grand Forks County in North Dakota is currently mostly redlinks, and it includes ND's biggest university. Here are draft articles: Talk:National Register of Historic Places listings in Grand Forks County, North Dakota/drafts, in pretty good shape, if i do say so myself, for what a program can generate. :)
In my batch-generator program, one spin-off is a report of MPS's. For Grand Forks County, it reports there are 35 listings in the "Downtown Grand Forks MRA", 4 listings in the "Historic Roadway Bridges of North Dakota MPS", and one each in "Buechner and Orth Courthouses in North Dakota TR" and "North Dakota Round Barns TR". I tinkered with the generator so that it completes out MPS doc references for the first two. -- doncram ( talk) 21:50, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Blome, R. S., Granitoid Pavement in Grand Forks is a property in [[Grand Forks, North Dakota]] that was listed on the [[National Register of Historic Places]] in 1991. It was built or has other significance in 1911.<ref name=nris/> It was designed and/or built by Blome,R.S.,Co. of Chicago.<ref name=nris/> It includes [[ architecture| ]] and [[ architecture| ]] architecture style.<ref name=nris/> When listed the property included one [[contributing structure]].<ref name=nris/> The listing is for an area of {{convert|55 |acre}}.<ref name=nris/> The listing is described in its NRHP nomination document.<ref name="nrhpinv3">{{cite web |url=http://pdfhost.focus.nps.gov/docs/NRHP/Text/91001583.pdf |title=NRHP Inventory-Nomination: Blome, R. S., Granitoid Pavement in Grand Forks |author=___ |date=, 19 |publisher=[[National Park Service]]}} and [http://pdfhost.focus.nps.gov/docs/NRHP/Photos/91001583.pdf ‘‘Accompanying ____ photos, exterior and interior, from 19___ (see photo captions page __ of text document)’‘]</ref>
Please do not start a new article using one of these semi-automatically generated drafts unless you will revise the article to meet a "pretty good quality" standard within a short time. What that standard needs to be is under discussion (as of 12/2010, the pretty-good-quality-standard requested is being discussed at here), but any article brought up to "Start" article quality would certainly be okay. Please do not start more than, say, five, if you have not brought all previous ones up to that quality level.
Please do not start a new article using one of these semi-automatically generated drafts unless you will revise the article to meet a "pretty good quality" standard within a short time. What that standard needs to be is up for discussion (as of 12/2010, it's being discussed here), but any article brought up to "Start" article quality would certainly be okay. Please do not start more than, say, five, if you have not brought all previous ones up to that quality level. |
As Blueboar noted above, technically my current process of generating batches of draft articles may require a Bot approval, although it is not using a bot. So i opened Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/NRHP batch generator 3.0. One question opened there is whether batches of drafts should be placed at Talk subpage of a NRHP county-list-article, or placed in userspace or WikiProject NRHP project space. Please comment there if interested. -- doncram ( talk) 16:36, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
Also, FYI, the Tolland County, Connecticut /drafts assisted in completing out stub or starter articles for all its former redlinks. Recent changes in Tolland County NRHP articles shows last 30 days activity. Also, editor Pubdog has elsewhere provided some feedback that I'll address in any new batches. And, Scott County, Iowa editors are contemplating, if not actually using, the /drafts i provided there towards helping them improve their mostly-already-existing articles. -- doncram ( talk) 16:47, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
I am trying to add coordinates information to the output of the NRHP batches-of-articles-generator (BOAG?) program that i am developing. In the new NRIS database the UTM file, and in the old NRIS the UTMZONEM.DBF file, includes coordinates data in UTM format, i.e. with zone and easting and northing fields. These can be converted by complicated formulas to latitude and longitude. Websites will do it for one location at a time. Or there is Steven Dutch, Natural and Applied Sciences, University of Wisconsin - Green Bay's website which provides a spreadsheet to do conversion in a batch. In my software i could implement those formulas.
(A drawback is that it is assuming the UTM data is recorded under the 1983 coordinates system (NAD83 datum), while in fact most of it is under 1927 coordinates system (NAD27). I suspect this might implement what Elkman's system does. BTW, when we write a new infobox with coordinates, i think there oughta be included a coded comment that would be bot-readable, to allow for future improvements of coordinates by bots. Something like <!---- coordinates source: "NRIS 2010a UTMZONEM.DBF coords NAD83-interpreted" see [[wp:NRHPcoords]] ---> to indicate coordinates being sourced from the 2010a version of NRIS database's UTM.DBF file, interpreted as if they are NAD83 data (even though many/most are NAD27). That might allow a later bot to come by and replace the coordinates, if a NAD27->NAD83 converter is available, for example. Or it might help an editor interested in fixing coords, to find their way to wp:NRHPcoords and decipher what has been done. I dunno.)
Is that the way to go? Or is there some other way to get lat & long coords for NRHP-listed places? -- doncram ( talk) 20:48, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
I hope everybody gets to enjoy the holidays with family and friends. Yes, I know I have a backlog of North Dakota articles to write, but they may not get done until after a Happy New Year. The best to all! Smallbones ( talk) 21:05, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
I also wish you all a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! Einbierbitte ( talk) 22:18, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
In the March 13, 2009 version of NRIS, counts of NRHP listings by certification status code are:
and there's one empty entry.
It's come up several times that items where code is DR were actually later fully NRHP-listed.
All the ones identified as RN are well-documented on the internet, erroneously, as being listed on the very date that they were in fact delisted. I think creating really short stub articles on these ones, by a real bot or otherwise, to get the accurate information out, would be helpful. -- doncram ( talk) 20:41, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Ah, I totally forgot about contributing properties.. well that makes our numbers even worse haha: 30,843 (number has increased since yesterday) articles - 21 delisted properties - 651 contributing properties + 84 individually listed contributing properties (that are also in the CP category by virtue of autocategorization by the infobox) = 30,255 total, which means we have articles for 35.88% of current NRHP listings.... about 0.7% less than before. Assuming that the CP articles are more than likely not started in huge stub drives (confirmed by a random spot check of the first page of the category), most of them are of decent start+ quality. This means that that 7.39% number I mentioned above should actually be lower, although I'm not sure by how much. If I had to guess, I'd say lower than 7.00%. If someone were willing to tabulate the class stats for all 651 CPs, we could find out exactly.. but the point is we just don't have a very good coverage of sites on the register... even after more than 4 years of work. Wow.
As a side note, I'm not even sure these refined numbers are accurate. During my spot check, I kept coming across unassessed articles or articles without NRHP project tags on their talk pages. Maybe we should start a drive to go through all the county lists and make sure they all have project tags? I could do Mississippi if you'd like. After the drive, we could reassess our progress and see if we can't make those numbers jump a little higher?-- Dudemanfellabra ( talk) 19:05, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
I've been accused of making disruptive changes ( User talk:Altairisfar#Twin Oaks Plantation) to an article that I created in January of 2009 with the name of Twin Oaks Plantation. I recently became aware of new sources (including a new book on Alabama plantations that I recently purchased) as to the correct current name, Everhope Plantation, and made some quick changes, including a page move (without adding the sources, though I had planned to do so on my next days off from work). These were reverted with the edit summary "NRHP and sources do not support changes." So the next day, I moved it back and did an expansion, using the new sources. I've been asked to move it back to the Twin Oaks Plantation name and undo my expansion, does anyone else feel that this would be appropriate? Thanks. Altair isfar 22:12, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
FYI, at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places/Architects2009a are counts from the 2009a version of NRIS for the most commonly named architects. Elkman once reported that Louis A. Simon has the most, but here's more. All of the NRHP-listed works for some of these architects have been identified in their articles (or in their Talk pages), including (from memory) for:
If anyone is interested in doing an article drive on any architect, lemme know and i can provide what i hope would be a helpful batch of drafted starter articles, like those at Talk:Ralph Adams Cram/drafts or better quality.
Also I could maybe run a report of counts by state, of top architects in each state. Any other architect reports of interest? -- Doncram ( talk) 22:50, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
New version, now in alpha order, of architect names ready for cleaning. Currently just the first 5,000. Some corrections to make good wikilinks are clear, like unwrapping "Lastname,Firstname" names, e.g. from Anshutz,Joseph W. to Joseph W. Anshutz. Some problems are clear, like there must be one correct version for all of these five (all currently showing as redlinks):
But which name should all five of those be changed to, in editing the wikilink? Assuming one name is chosen, then there will be just one wikilink used for the corresponding 12 (1+1+4+5+1) NRIS entries. Note, clearly the following one is different and should not be changed to include "and Rantoul".
There are lots of architect-merger-type decisions which are unclear. I suppose i could revise the cleaning report to state in a following row, for architect names having just one NRIS entry, what is the refnum and name and city and state for the building or other property. Maybe that would allow a cleanup editor to do research in some of these cases. Hmm. -- Doncram ( talk) 08:13, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Robert D. Andrews. Boston Architectural Club Exhibition Catalog (Boston: Boston Architectural Club, 1904). Andrews was a member of [ Henry Hobson Richardson ]'s office staff whose career flourished in Boston in the years following Richardson's death. Longfellow described Andrews's role in Richardson's office as "making pretty drawings of facades and perspectives" for the clients (AWL to ECPL, Nahant, 5 March 1882, LA). Andrews would joing Herbert Jacques and Augustus Neal Rancoul in practice.
Augustus Neal Rantoul died in Santa Barbara, California. He was one of the sons of Robert S. Rantoul, who was an early Salem mayor and longtime President of the Essex Institute. Augustus was an architect whose firm in Boston was Andrews, Jaques & Rantoul. He was born and lived for many years at his father’s home at 17 Winter Street in Salem.
Not surprisingly, "Other" tops the list in frequency of architectural style types noted in the new 2010a version of NRIS. Greek Revival architecture, a favorite of mine, is the top real one with 7,839 NRHPs being recorded as having it. What is Early Republic style, anyhow? Not very common in NRHP, there are just 317 of this type. Early Republic architecture is a link to where something could be written about it; Category:Early Republic architecture is a brand new category. All 88 Exotic Revival architecture NRHPs could be covered in one list-article.
The 40 style types are unchanged in the new 2010a NRIS vs. the 2009a and perhaps all previous NRIS versions. Only 3 of these can be recorded for each NRHP listing, so historic districts whose NRHP nom docs clearly describe many more styles, only get 3. There's one free field for NRIS data entry of another architectural phrase, though, which allows for some unusual architectural descriptions. The 40 standard styles are, by frequency in the new NRIS:
RANK ARCHITECTURAL_STYLE COUNT ---- ------------------- ----- 1 OTHER 20453 2 NO STYLE LISTED 17771 3 GREEK REVIVAL 7839 4 COLONIAL REVIVAL 5473 5 ITALIANATE 5360 6 QUEEN ANNE 5355 7 CLASSICAL REVIVAL 4830 8 FEDERAL 4812 9 LATE VICTORIAN 4378 10 BUNGALOW/CRAFTSMAN 3639 11 LATE 19TH AND 20TH CENTURY REVIVALS 3184 12 ROMANESQUE 2894 13 GOTHIC REVIVAL 1962 14 MISSION/SPANISH REVIVAL 1525 15 GOTHIC 1501 16 GEORGIAN 1490 17 TUDOR REVIVAL 1464 18 RENAISSANCE 1426 19 ART DECO 1260 20 LATE GOTHIC REVIVAL 1200 21 COLONIAL 1189 22 LATE 19TH AND EARLY 20TH CENTURY AMERICAN MOVEMENTS 1185 23 EARLY COMMERCIAL 1114 24 SECOND EMPIRE 1098 25 BEAUX ARTS 1005 26 STICK/EASTLAKE 912 27 MODERNE 773 28 PRAIRIE SCHOOL 760 29 MODERN MOVEMENT 693 30 MID 19TH CENTURY REVIVAL 670 31 SHINGLE STYLE 599 32 CHICAGO 414 33 MIXED (MORE THAN 2 STYLES FROM DIFFERENT PERIODS) 325 34 EARLY REPUBLIC 317 35 INTERNATIONAL STYLE 272 36 ITALIAN VILLA 258 37 PUEBLO 135 38 OCTAGON MODE 115 39 EXOTIC REVIVAL 88 40 SKYSCRAPER 87
Different coding of data within the 2010a NRIS might possibly work better for brand-new programmers/users of the data, but is a pain for those with programs expecting the 2009a format of data. I for one have decided to reverse the change in architectural style coding reflected in the 2010a version, by internally reconstructing the ARSTYLCD field that was in the 2009a, so that my programs following that conversion can run the same.
Your correspondent. -- Doncram ( talk) 06:12, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
I've just created an article on the Lincoln Motor Company Plant, it of the singular NX designation. I suspect I didn't get the infobox designation correct, so please take a look. Andrew Jameson ( talk) 18:04, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
|delisted=
only applies to delisting from the register entirely. If it has only been removed from a single designation, use the |delisted_nrhp_type=
parameter.--
Dudemanfellabra (
talk)
18:09, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
In December there were 3 NRHP lists added to the fully illustrated category, one each in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Florida, with the last pix added by User:Royalbroil, User:Andrew Jameson and User:Ebyabe. Congrats! For 2010 the NRHP FI lists increased from 47 lists with 1301 pictures, to 126 lists with 4025 pix. That's a lot of progress. Cheers to all who contributed. Smallbones ( talk) 16:41, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Doncram above suggested some change to this section since folks haven't been using it. I've cleaned out the 3 or 4 requests from 2010, but the 2 or 3 dozen requests from Sept 2009 and before remain. The directions or mechanics of the page don't seem to work well - articles that were reassessed remain in the to-do list at the top of this page. I'll suggest getting rid of the whole section and in the instructions put "If you wish an article to be reassessed simply remove the current assessment. The article will then be automatically be placed in the category of unassessed articles, and be assessed anew in due course." (or similar). If we can't reassess articles within a year under the current system, then we need to do something else. Smallbones ( talk) 02:53, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
We have a lot of "address restricted" sites in Missouri. These are mostly Native American burial sites and such. Obviously we don't want pictures of the actual sites as this kinda undermines the whole purpose of restricting the site addresses. That said, I would still like to fully illustrate our county lists. Are there any generic "archeological site" images that could be used for all these address restricted sites? If not, does anyone have any thoughts on what such an image would look like or the means to create one? HornColumbia talk 18:01, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
Category:Railway-related National Historic Landmarks, is a recently created category that has been nominated by another editor for deletion. It looks like NHLs are currently categorized by location except for this cat and lighthouses, both of which are fairly recent groupings. I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other but, if you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. RevelationDirect ( talk) 04:25, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
I dunno why i was not aware of it before, but came across Wikipedia:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places/Popular pages, which is useful to Watchlist for monthly updates. Adding to my Watchlist now. Oddly, there is a AT&T Building (Kingman, Arizona) which stands out as a stub article but receiving a ton of hits. Perhaps from being target of redirect AT&T Building. Dunno where readers are really looking for, probably not the telephone exchange building in Obscuretown, Arizona (which i hev bin 2). And Keeper of the Register, which should be a Top priority for us, is another stub getting tons of hits. Many higher-quality-rated articles seem okay, not so much from our work but ok nonetheless. -:) - Doncram ( talk) 05:50, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
I don't know why, originally, this Wikiproject did not assign Importance ratings to articles. Maybe so little was known, at first, that it seemed unhelpful? But can we agree now to begin to use importance ratings, and use that to guide our article improvement efforts?
FYI, i am finding myself in difficulty at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Connecticut#New contest, where i am arguing that CT NHLs should be considered High importance for WikiProject Connecticut and hence be eligible for its new article improvement contest. Unfortunately, the National Historic Landmarks article, the List of NHLs in CT article, and most of the 60 separate CT NHL articles don't do a great job, yet, of explaining why they are important to the state and/or to the nation. (Comments there welcome! I'd be especially happy if anyone else would commit to developing a CT NHL article within the contest, if those would be deemed contest-eligible.)
It has been asserted from time to time that having short stub NRHP articles is somehow bad. I happen to think having a short stub is good and is all that is needed for many NRHPs, like for remote farmhouse ones which are NRHP-listed merely because of being the best local representative of a given architectural style. It's not important to further develop such articles, IMHO, although developing them is fine if someone local happens to get interested. However it is important to develop the National Historic Landmark ones; I would give all of those High importance now. I'd be interested in seeing our articles assessment table, at Wikipedia:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places#Collaboration and assessment, show how many of these high importance ones are stubs vs. start vs. better. -- Doncram ( talk) 18:11, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
|importance=
parameter. Then we'd have to create a guideline like
this one. Then we'd have to go through all 30,941 (as of 2011-01-01, 18:26 (UTC)) articles and assign them importances. A daunting task to say the least.--
Dudemanfellabra (
talk)
18:42, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Smallbones ( talk) 20:01, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Label | Criteria | Examples |
---|---|---|
Top |
|
National Register of Historic Places National Historic Landmark Contributing property National Historic Preservation Act of 1966 State Historic Preservation Office National Park Service No specific sites yet discussed List of NHLs; List of RHPs |
High |
|
Manzanar Frank Lloyd Wright; Tourtellotte & Hummel Greek Revival architecture List of NHLs in AL; List of RHPs in AL |
Mid |
|
Atalaya Castle Boston Public Garden Land of the Cross-Tipped Churches Herkimer Home State Historic Site Shingle Style architecture; Exotic Revival architecture Conde McCullough; Ward Wellington Ward National Register of Historic Places listings in North Side Chicago; List of Elks buildings |
Low |
|
Phoenixville Historic District List of contributing properties in the St. Anthony Falls Historic District |
Bottom |
|
(examples needed) |
I just edited slightly the above table. I think articles about the register itself should also be top-importance, and I think sites that have also been recognized by other registers (NPS, state, or local organizations) should be included with the individually listed CPs. What do you guys think?-- Dudemanfellabra ( talk) 20:45, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
I'd really rather keep the top priorities small, to really allow us to focus effort, and to allow locally knowledgeable editors room to kick up the importance from Low to Mid of something they know is really important. I like setting default ratings objectively, as suggested by several, but how about then allowing the NRHP editors in a given state, discussing at Talk page of the state-level list-article, with invited participation of WikiProject STATE editors, getting to refine the objective rating system in their state, as long as they keep High % to less than 3% and Mid or higher to less than 10%. So as to disregard NJ and NY state designations, because there every NRHP is automatically getting that rating, but in NY using the handful of State Historic sites to some effect. And allowing for explicit discussion, like how in central New York the Niagara Mohawk Building, which should really be a National Historic Landmark but doesn't get a boost from any objective criteria so far discussed, has to get higher importance rating.
(Second table commented out)
A problem I have with the scale as proposed is that it's top-heavy. There ought to be way more "low-importance" articles than anything else, but right now, in the proposed scale above, "low-importance" is reserved for buildings and people that are typically not notable enough to warrant an article anyway. (There are specific exceptions, obviously, but not, I think, enough to even be near the 80,000 NRHP-listings.) This effectively produces a three-level importance scale rather than a four-level scale.
Furthermore, I don't think importance levels should be assigned based on the need for an article drive, or the perception that "low-importance" articles are somehow "no-importance" articles. Importance levels should be assigned only to differentiate the articles that are of greater importance to the average reader. Greater importance means an ever-narrowing pyramid of numbers.
As an example, look at WikiProject Biography. They have a short, resonable statement on the relativity of their priority scale. And, specifically, they've chosen to restrict the number of "top-importance" to 200 out of a current article list of over 800,000 (and a potential article list of far more than that). That's a little extreme, but Michigan has only 23 "top-priority" articles out of 7000-ish written articles, and Connecticut (the example given above) has 100 top-priority out of 5000-ish written articles. Presumably, for both states, the "top-priority" (and most of the "high-priority") articles are already written, so further articles would be primarily in the mid- and low-importance areas.
Looking at both Michigan and Connecticut, I see article-count dropoffs in the range of 3X to 10X as the importance increases. Note these are for articles already written; presumably, for both states, further articles would be primarily in the mid- and low-importance areas, increasing the dropoff rate there. This NRHP project has a relatively limited scope of "historic places" articles: the 85,000+ listings (plus some additional contributing property articles) for something like 100,000 up to maybe 150,000 articles total, ignoring architects and lists and other things for the nonce.
Given that, I think the project should shoot for a priority scale that leads to dropoff rates in the 5X to 10X range. For example, at 7X, that gives:
Obviously one can argue about exactly what dropoff rate is appropriate, but I think placing most articles in the "mid priority" category defeats the purpose of a priority scale. Andrew Jameson ( talk) 13:00, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
If people are worried about insulting other people's articles then perhaps you should take the approach of the maths project and use the term "priority" instead of "importance". Low-priority does not reflect on the article itself (which some may regard as important) but simply says it not a priority for the project. — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 16:43, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
For what it's worth, the National Register database assigns a level of significance to each property. The levels are "Local", "State", "National", and "International". I'm not sure about the ones marked "International" (see below), but the national level ones look to be accurate, like Chrysler Building, Lever House, Fort Snelling, James J. Hill House, and Washburn A Mill. Properties significant at the state level, like in Minnesota, are places like Cedar Avenue Bridge, Foshay Tower, Hesper (shipwreck), Intercity Bridge, and so on. Finally, the ones significant at the local level, like in Minnesota, are places like the Lumber Exchange Building, Jackson Hotel, Great Northern Depot (Princeton, Minnesota), and Soo Line Depot (Crosby, Minnesota). I would tend to think that the ones important at the national level should be ranked higher than the ones important at the state and local levels.
As an aside, there are only 30 with a level of "International", but I'm wondering if those are accurate. Forestville Baptist Church is marked International, but I'm not sure if that's accurate. -- Elkman (Elkspeak) 22:27, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
On nationalregisterofhistoricplaces.com, there is an entry for the Chilhowee Park Historic District in Knox County, Tennessee, supposedly listed in 2005. The reference number given is 00501039. However, the Chilhowee Park HD is apparently not on the Register, and a search for the reference number on the NRHP's database brings up no matches. Furthermore, I found a nomination form for the Chilhowee Park HD here (starts on page 4), dated January 2009, with the exact same streets given as the 2005 listing. Does this mean it was nominated in 2005, but the NRHP rejected it? Bms4880 ( talk) 21:07, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Categories 1) and 3) are in the tables now - no objection. Category 2) - we might as well wait until we find out exactly what it is. Category 4), I'd rather not bother. One point against it is that the owners have asked to not be listed presumably for reasons of privacy or perhaps to avoid vandalism, looting, etc. Smallbones ( talk) 18:57, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
I noticed on the CPHD nomination form that one of the areas of significance is 1956-1959. It's possible they decided to wait until 2009 in order to meet the less-rigorous 50-year rule. In any case, I've split off and expanded the neighborhood info to Chilhowee Park (neighborhood). Bms4880 ( talk) 23:47, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I'd be interested in rotating out of the maintenance stuff i do on NRHP-related disambiguation pages and list-articles in some parts of the country that i watchlist. I wonder sometimes if Sanfranman59 or Nyttend or others with a lot of NRHP list-articles on their watchlists would also like to rotate out. I've thought that we could split up NRHP material by geographic areas and allow an annual or other periodic changeover, like WikiProject Military History does, but maybe not with its formal elections process. One technical difficulty is that it might be hard to transfer responsibility to a new volunteer, who might not take on a full watchlist that you have built up.
For addressing Biography of Living Persons issues, a new innovation has come up: "tranches" of articles to watch. See User:Tony Sidaway/Living people/tranches. A volunteer can take on a swath of listed articles to watch, easily. This method, with a bot run, could be used to set up NRHP watchlists that could be divvied up differently and rotated. -- doncram ( talk) 16:04, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
(this was a subsection within "Please change the standard citation to omit the link" --
doncram (
talk)
18:32, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
In the above "There are 36,000 articles in WikiProject NRHP now though," answers a question I've had for a long time - What percentage of NRHP sites have articles? The 36,000 may be a bit high for NRHP sites, as there are a few non-site articles in the Project. The number of sites is about 84,000 (?), which would give 3/7ths or about 42%. It seems high - maybe all the county lists make a big difference (2,000 or -2.5% ???).
The other long time question I have is how many of the sites are illustrated. This number could be more or less than the number of articles, since many sites are only illustrated on the county list articles, and not all articles are illustrated. Any idea on how to get this percentage? Smallbones ( talk) 19:37, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
I know it's rather vain, but I like to finish fully-illustrated lists. See National Register of Historic Places listings in Gloucester County, New Jersey, with 1 missing photo.
We had an extensive discussion recently about Address Restricted sites and photos of them, but I didn't understand the advice on this matter as being practical or specific.
I don't know that this is an archeological site - in fact New Jersey makes learning anything about their sites difficult to find anything about - but it is AR. Should I list this county as fully illustrated? Smallbones ( talk) 18:53, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
BTW totaled up the FI list and there are exactly 100 counties (or other geographical areas) and 3120 pix on all these lists. Smallbones ( talk) 01:11, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
(out) The image is on Commons now. I had to rename it as File:Address restricted.PNG, as there was already a file named File:Address Restricted.png. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:46, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
I noticed on the NRHP that there appears to be 85,822 properties listed on the website but only about 36000 have articles in WP. Is there a list or something somewhere that shows which ones still need to be created? -- Kumioko ( talk) 18:34, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
I noticed the following dated from this summer Template:NRHP-PD which gives
This article includes text in the public domain from the National Register of Historic Places.
which would be useful if we were copying anything directly from the NRHP to avoid plagiarism problems. I'm just wondering whether there is any useful information that can be copied directly from the NRHP that is public domain?
The obvious question is whether the nomination forms are PD. I'd argue that the are since they are administrative rulings of the government. The principle is essentially the same as for why court cases can't be copyrighted. The nominations themselves ARE the National Register, and the National Register itself is a Federal government document that everybody has the right to access, copy, etc. Nevertheless, I've tried this argument before regarding photos in the NRHP and it has been rejected here. (Are photos somehow different?) The counterargument was that the photos were produced by individuals who had copyright before they submitted them to the NRHP. Does the same reasoning apply to the written government form (the nomination)?
Before anybody goes and tries to copy a nomination directly, I have to say that this would in general make for an awful article. Too much editing would be needed to make for a readable article. But in some cases it could be useful, particularly info from summaries. I'll put a particular case below, which some may think muddies the water for the general issue. Smallbones ( talk) 19:16, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
In general consensus has been to avoid using either text or images. Both are in many cases prepared by private individuals, consultants or state officials who are not working for the Federal government either as employees or as contractors. Therefore, regardless of what's posted by the NPS in the fine print at the bottom of the screen, their work is not PD because the NPS has no authority to waive their rights. I've made specific inquiry to the NPS about images, and their answer is that it's the responsibility of the end user to determine copyright/public domain status, and that it is very unlikely that material posted at NPS Focus can be used in a free-content environment; the same condition would certainly apply to text. Acroterion (talk) 19:34, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
This has been a banner month for fully illustrated NRHP lists (see project page). I count 7 FI lists completed in November. Dear to my heart is National Register of Historic Places listings in Central Chicago completed by User:Alanscottwalker with 113 listings (6th largest among FI lists). Central Chicago is one of America's architectural jewels and certainly deserves a FI list. User:Bobak topped up large lists in Hennepin and Ramsey Counties, MN (which have a couple of nice grain elevators!). New York State has several - too many to track down all the attributions - probably by User:Pubdog and the usual NY NRHP mafia. User:Ammodramus is keeping up his usual pace in Nebraska. User:Royalbroil completed National_Register_of_Historic_Places_listings_in_Wisconsin#Green_Lake_County. Apologies for anybody I left off. Smallbones ( talk) 17:46, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
The NRHP/NHL article Monadnock Building is now a Featured Article candidate. People on this project may be interested in the review. -- Nasty Housecat ( talk) 21:42, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
Where is everybody getting the links of images of NRHP sites from the official NRHP website? Because every time I try, I keep getting the error message "The PDF file for this National Register record has not yet been digitized." I really need this for two sites; Wakefield Upper Depot, and any historic district that Wilson (Amtrak station) might be in, assuming the station is in a historic district. ---- DanTD ( talk) 00:12, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Hi, and thank you for your feedback on the Version 0.8 selection. Unfortunately, I can't see any of the articles being added for now - we look at a lot of stats for judging the articles, but they usually have to be pretty major/mainstream topics to be included. The FAs listed all seem to be fairly specialized. If you know of any specific reasons that the stats may be wrong, or if I've overlooked something, please let me know. Likewise, with the articles you propose removing: These are often crosslisted with other WikiProjects, and may well have been included for those projects' reasons. That means we typically need a strong, specific reason for removing an article, such as gross copyright violations (that occurred on some Wagner operas) or a technical glitch on our part, etc. Please let me know if any of these "to be removed" articles fall into that category. Sorry I couldn't be more positive this time, but I still appreciate the time you've taken to look over our selection. Thanks again, Walkerma ( talk) 05:48, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
I have started a conversation here about the possibility of combining some of the United States related WikiProject Banners into {{ WikiProject United States}}. If you have any comments, questions or suggestions please take a moment and let me know. -- Kumioko ( talk) 04:50, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
This short NRHP stub, by me, is up for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ackerville Baptist Church of Christ. Altair isfar 17:48, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Hi there. We're having a discussion about a few sources including letters by the National Park Service (regarding eligibility and/or listing on the NRHP) as well as letters and photos by a state historical society and their status in articles about historical buildings. These are sources that were found at the Minnesota State Historic Preservation Office and will impact future NRHP articles in Minnesota. It would be nice to set a consensus policy now, as this could easily be a problem elsewhere. If you find this of interest, please take a look at the discussion at Talk:Salvation Army Headquarters (Saint Paul, Minnesota) and let us know your opinion. Thank you. -- Bobak ( talk) 07:53, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
I have submitted a proposal at the Village pump regarding tagging non article items in Wikipedia. Please take a moment and let me know what you think. -- Kumioko ( talk) 02:00, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
We have 36,640 articles tagged by the WikiProject now, including 2,000 list-articles and 3,000 disambiguation pages. There are some NRHP list-articles and individual articles lacking Talk pages and Wikiproject tagging, and there are many articles tagged by us that are not primarily about NRHP-listed places. But, notice this is 1% of 3,483,756 articles in the English wikipedia (per Template:numberofarticles). I think that's pretty amazing, that we have this many articles in progress, where local editors can arrive and add pics and develop material.
We're being translated into Portuguese now, too: see Anexo:Marco Histórico Nacional na Dakota do Sul for the South Dakota NHL list. -- doncram ( talk) 00:24, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
I just discovered that 5 NRHP listings during 2008 were omitted from one county list-article, because its March 1st table-izing used the NRIS version then available, and didn't capture items covered in the March 13, 2009 and still-current version of NRIS. I detailed this out at Talk:National Register of Historic Places listings in Douglas County, Nebraska#Park Avenue Apartment District. How many of our list-articles would the same problem apply to? Also recently Nyttend found several list-articles, including National Register of Historic Places listings in Poughkeepsie, New York which erroneously presented as NRHP-listed, places that in fact were not NRHP-listed in the end due to owner objections. I surmise those are cases where table-izing was done prior to our knowing more about the NRIS codes for owner objection. I think overall we've been rather conscientious, but can't stop all errors. I suppose there are other types of errors of omission and incorrect inclusion that we could have made. Sanfranman59 reports that a new version of NRIS is coming available soon. Is there some way we could use the new version to audit the accuracy of some of our county lists? Should we? -- doncram ( talk) 18:32, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
I just found out that the NRHP portion of the infobox in Bayport Aerodrome has shrunk in half. Can anybody fix this? ---- DanTD ( talk) 02:44, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Having just finished Marion Steam Shovel (Le Roy, New York), and having some pictures of Dipper Dredge No. 3 that I will at some point upload, I'm wondering if we have enough old construction equipment listed on the Register outside of upstate New York to justify a "Construction equipment on the National Register of Historic Places" category (and, by extension, enough created articles). There's got to be a few more out there.
If we do create this, maybe we can also create a higher-level cat along the lines of "Heavy machinery on the National Register of Historic Places" to hold the construction equipment and the locomotives, all to be part of a general "Industry-related listings on the National Register of Historic Places" topic cat I think we could have eventually. Daniel Case ( talk) 23:50, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
A few minutes ago, User:Ebyabe addressed a problem to me; Apparently the Opa-Locka Railroad Station and the Harry Hurt Building have the same address. I have a strong feeling that they're the same place, especially since the picture he took of the Harry Hurt Building looks a lot like a railroad station. ---- DanTD ( talk) 17:03, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Ever now and then I come across a NRHP list with a ship or shipwreck, and frequently the ship's name is given in ALL CAPS. This is because the ancient Federal database lists them that way, presumably because it was not capable of italic text. But is there any reason Wikipedia should copy this practice? If I correct these, will somebody jump down my throat or go around reverting me? Abductive ( reasoning) 12:19, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
I was scrolling through my watchlist and saw that someone put a "citation needed" tag on The Kean--specifically, on the "year built" in the infobox. Adding a citation to the date would be trivially easy: not only is the year given in the NRIS, it's also given in *both* of the other references listed in the article. However, the "citation needed" tag got me thinking: what's the policy on providing a source for the infobox info? I've been assuming the NRIS citation on the NRHP Reference# kind of covers the whole box, but should each fact be seperately sourced? Alternatively, should each fact be mentioned in the article text and sourced *there* instead? Andrew Jameson ( talk) 12:57, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
There are ten shipwrecks listed in the National Register of Historic Places listings in Keweenaw County, Michigan--all of these are from the same MPS, they are all listed as "address restricted," and they're all off Isle Royale (and, I gather, within the boundaries of the Isle Royale National Park). They all have some archaeological importance, which I infer is why they're listed as "address restricted." However, the National Park Service pretty clearly has no objection to letting people know where the wrecks are located. This is the official NPS Isle Royale "scuba diving" page, complete with photographs and desciptions of all ten wrecks, as well as direct links to commercial dive companies one can hire to visit the wrecks. One of these companies is Black Dog Diving, another is Superior Trips; both companies list GPS coordinates of the dive buoys for each wreck. Given that the coords are publically available, and the NPS explicitly allows the public to dive the wrecks, I think it's reasonable to include the coords in the National Register of Historic Places listings in Keweenaw County, Michigan and on the existing individual ship pages. Is there a reason I shouldn't do this? Andrew Jameson ( talk) 19:03, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
A related question that I've been meaning to ask for a while is wondering if a county is considered complete if there are some unphotographed shipwrecks. It would take extraordinary means for an average Wikipedian to photograph a shipwreck that is several miles from shore considering that most of us don't own a boat or have deep-water diving equipment and cameras. Royal broil 21:43, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
Also, there are historical markers on the shore for these things. The Land Tortoise's NHL plaque is onshore as well, and at some point I'll upload a pic of it if I don't hear from the dive group I've contacted, the one whose members discovered it in the first place. Since it's a federal work, the NHL plaque wouldn't create copyright issues with the text. Daniel Case ( talk) 05:42, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
See discussion at Template talk:Infobox NRHP#Meta-template compatible.-- Dudemanfellabra ( talk) 20:28, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
I am slowly, very slowly, coming along with a major expansion of Pike-Pawnee Village Site, an address-restricted archaeological site in Webster County, Nebraska.
The AR designation is very valid, since shiny things have been recovered from the site, and I'll refer to those in the article. However, I'd like to have some kind of map in the infobox, just because the verbal description ("on the Republican River between Guide Rock and Red Cloud in Webster County, Nebraska") wouldn't convey much to a lot of readers.
My inclination is to use the Commons map showing the location of Webster County within Nebraska, and to use it like a district map in the infobox template, with a caption "Webster County, Nebraska" or the like. Does this seem reasonable, or can someone suggest a better approach?
-- Ammodramus ( talk) 22:05, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
|district_map=
parameter as I was reading the beginnings of your comment, and I see that you were thinking the same way I was. If there is any image showing the Republican River, I might go with that, however. Just depends on how specific you want to be without endangering the site.--
Dudemanfellabra (
talk)
23:51, 15 December 2010 (UTC)I've found a couple of sites that don't appear in their county lists, but that appear to be legitimate NRHP listings.
One is the Z.C.B.J. Opera House (Clarkson, Nebraska), which does not appear in National Register of Historic Places listings in Colfax County, Nebraska. It shows up when I look at Colfax County in the NPS Focus site; and it's on the Nebraska State Historical Society's NRHP in Colfax County page. Recent ground-truthing indicates that it's still standing and doesn't appear to have been degraded: see Commons:Category:Z.C.B.J. Opera House (Clarkson, Nebraska). The Elkman tool returns a note: "This property may not actually be listed on the National Register - listing code is DR".
The other site is the East Riley Creek Bridge (not the same as the Riley Creek Bridge), which does not appear in National Register of Historic Places listings in Republic County, Kansas. Both Riley Creek bridges appear under Republic County at the Focus website; both are listed in the Kansas Historical Society's Historic Places in Republic County page. Both bridges are apparently still there, and match the descriptions in their nom forms, available at the KHS page; see Commons:Category:Riley Creek Bridge on 170 (Republic County, Kansas) for Riley Creek Bridge, and Commons:Category:East Riley Creek Bridge on Queen (Republic County, Kansas) for East Riley Creek Bridge. The Elkman tool returns the DR note for East Riley Creek Bridge, but not for Riley Creek Bridge.
Can I add these to their respective list articles, or does this require further investigation and/or discussion and consensus?
-- Ammodramus ( talk) 00:58, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
I notice that about 50 usages of "National Historic District" as a proper noun, linked phrase have crept back into Wikipedia. I think these are all bogus and propose deletion of the term, currently a redirect, at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2010 December 5#National Historic District. Please consider commenting there! -- doncram ( talk) 14:05, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
The NPS has released updated public data files. I'm not sure what date should be used in references for this version. The latest "CERTDATE" in the PROPMAIN table is July 9, for 5 nominations that were pending at the time (four of these were listed August 16 and the other August 23). The CERTDATE for the most recent listed property is June 25 (Main Street Commercial District in Little Rock, AR, announced July 2). I think we should probably use the July 9 date. What do others think?
I'm going to start going through and documenting sites that are listed in multiple jurisdictions, adding them to our list articles as appropriate and accounting for the duplicates in the tally tables. This is something we don't get from the weekly announcements where they only indicate the primary location. I plan to source my additions to this release of the database, so I'd like to come to some consensus on the date.
We may also be able to fill in some missing geocode coordinates using the "spatial" data file. The most recent CERTDATE in this file is May 28. According to the download web page, the Google Earth layers they have available are more accurate than the data in the "spatial" file, but they are only complete through the beginning of 2007. -- sanfranman59 ( talk) 02:02, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
User:Kumioko is suggesting using the next version of NRIS, coming soon, for creating the missing 55,000 NRHP articles. I would like to support that, now, IF certain conditions can be met:
I hope this can be considered as a reasonable proposal and that moderation in discussion can prevail. It should be noted:
-- doncram ( talk) 20:25, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
I would prefer to see them not created by bot but rather do them by hand. A bot will only have minimal information and I keep seeing awesome articles done by hand. When I see a list of redlinks for a county, I'm able to see what needs to be done. Having bot-created articles will mask it. Royal broil 20:58, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
If, Kumioko, you are expecting to create articles as detailed as the 330 West 42nd Street one, you, my friend, are expecting way more than you should from the NRIS database. As Doncram states above, this article (though still quite short in my opinion) is exponentially more complicated and well-structured than a bot running from the NRIS data could create. In all reality, the two examples Doncram shows above – Hughes Manor and St. Luke's Chapel – are about the quality I would expect to come out of a bot.
I am opposed to the creation of these bot-articles solely because of their low quality. "Articles" like Hughes Manor and St. Luke's Chapel are better off redlinked in my opinion until they can have justice done to them. Now if a bot were to come along and be able by some magic pixie dust to create articles of the 330 West 42nd Street quality, I would emphatically support this effort and would devote many hours to making sure it went off without a hitch. Alas, though, a bot is not a magician, so this will not happen any time soon. The best that this bot will be able to spit out is the crud that Doncram has shown above. If you are fine with articles of this quality cluttering up Wikipedia, then by all means go forward with this bot. I, however, will remain vehemently opposed to the idea in its current form.-- Dudemanfellabra ( talk) 04:53, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure that it is good to know where several of you all stand on the hypothetical question of whether you like what a bot would do or not, because I think you're presuming that a bot could only do as well as the Elkman NRHP generator. Negative protestations aside, the fact is editors here do use the Elkman NRHP generator to start articles. I do believe that editor Orlady started one or two NRHP articles with deliberate point not to use it, but editors Acroterion, Ammodramus, Daniel Case, Dudemanfellabra, Pubdog, Royalbroil, Smallbones, and every other NRHP editor do start with Elkman NRHP output when starting articles, I believe. Unfortunately, Elkman is no longer developing the NRHP generator. Elkman has kindly maintained the generator, and provided it at his own website, and it does provide a great service, and I am not at all complaining. We are all volunteers.... But, we can get better starter articles. I think it is crazy to want to start articles at a lower level than can be done, when there are so many to start.
Let's try another question. Please consider National Register of Historic Places listings in Cass County, North Dakota. I was developing and used a semi-automated approach yesterday and today to develop starter articles for about half of its NRHP listings. There were a few articles started already, all i think lacking the NRHP nomination document which is in fact available for almost all of these. I think in the new articles that i started, that there is some good starter information. I used the semi-automated approach to get an article like this first version of Robert Lindemann House and then with another few manual edits i refined the NRHP nom doc reference and developed the article a little bit, resulting in this current version for that one. Don't you think the readers and editors of North Dakota are better served by having some or all of this done? -- doncram ( talk) 15:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
See Talk:Cass Gilbert#NRHP ones for a list of the NRHP-listed Cass Gilbert buildings. I created articles for those lacking, except for 3 Minnesota ones. I've repeatedly heard of this architect, i guess for the Woolworth building and for his deigning to design the railroad station in New Haven, Connecticut. But i had no idea he was a pioneer in warehouse design, for huge reinforced concrete structures such as the Austin, Nichols and Company Warehouse, Brooklyn, the U.S. Army Military Ocean Terminal the Brooklyn Army Terminal that disembarked 85% of U.S. troops during the world war, and R.C. Williams Warehouse, Manhattan.
I am "embarrassed, frustrated, disbelieving, disgusted and woeful" that WikiProject NRHP had not previously done its job, for architect editors and for readers, to creating those articles and more, such as the crucial Cass Gilbert National Register District article. :) Seriously, what to be most concerned about here depends on your perspective, your goals. I think our goals should be to get info out there and to facilitate many other potential editors' continuing work, not to save up topics for us to work on individually as part of a small private club. I prefer Gilbert's massive public works, over a charming boutique cottage for some rich fancy-pants. -- doncram ( talk) 15:46, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Just a note... the community currently frowns on bot created articles. While they are not banned outright, they are strongly discoraged. If you are going to go this route, make sure you follow Wikipedia:Bot policy#Mass article creation. Blueboar ( talk) 16:52, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
I don't know where the "are strongly discouraged" for bot created articles comes from. It's not in Wikipedia:Bot policy#Mass article creation. But this does raise the question of how approval for the bot would be obtained. I'll ask doncram to fill us in on the general strategy/procedure.
I'll also ask folks not to say "I'm completely against bot creation" but rather focus on "What the bot needs to do in order to gain my support." It's pretty clear that a bot that would just take the infobox and create a few sentences from that (or similar) doesn't have general support from editors here. OK - I don't think doncram would go ahead and do that without support. I'll suggest that a bot that could do the following in the manner suggested should have support and ask others to put in their lists.
A bot should:
I think this type of article creation is important because with 500 articles created per week, we could approach "complete coverage" of NRHP sites within 2 years, or perhaps only 100 articles created per week get "complete coverage" within 10 years. Now I'd guess we are doing 20-50 new articles per week. That's 20-50 years.
"Complete coverage" is important if only because of the rotten job the NRHP does in getting its information out on the internet. For large areas of the country a high school student cannot go to any easily searchable database to find basic information on an NRHP site that is right down the street from where he lives. And if he can find that internet site, much of the info provided is essentially unreadable to inexperienced normal human beings. Having a readily available site like Wikipedia that could give 5 or 6 basic pieces of information (architect, date built, date listed, style, etc.) on all but the newest NRHP sites would be a great service to the entire country and would also attract many new editors to Wikipedia who could improve the stubs. Smallbones ( talk) 18:37, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
(outdent) You said: "We don't have to regurgitate everything that is written nicely in a report about one place, when we can just direct a reader to it." –– so why don't we just strip everything out of the Statue of Liberty article and leave a list of links to the references? I'm pretty sure that would agitate a lot of people. The entire point of Wikipedia is to bring all the information from various sources together into a ready-to-read-once format. If a reader gets to an article and just sees a list of links with information, Wikipedia may as well be renamed Google.
We don't add value by putting a link or two on a page; we add value by turning those sources into readily-available information for the average reader to digest. Much the same, a list of sites on what is to most some obscure register commissioned by the government is pointless if all the sites on the list have 2 sentences written about them. The reason I have focused so little on the Lauderdale County list article is that personally I don't really care about it. I've focused on bringing the Meridian, Mississippi article (which mentions the places listed in the context of the history of the city... far more valuable in my opinion than a list) from hardly start quality to now being a GA. When I get the time, I hope to bring it all the way to FA, but that is beside the point. Anyone (including a robot) can make all the redlinks on a list turn blue, and anyone (including a bot) can write two sentences and link to a pdf about a place, but it takes someone with the will to actually discover the history of a place to write a decent article.
The bottom line is that the entire purpose of Wikipedia is to be a self-contained encyclopedia of basically all knowledge – NOT a link directory or a stub farm or a disambiguation free-for-all. Articles are the backbone of Wikipedia. All the other stuff falls into place because of those articles. If we are going to have a bot create anything, it should be articles. And that.. is all I have to say about that.-- Dudemanfellabra ( talk) 02:36, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
Again I'll ask everybody to state what kind of bot they can support. Given the no-bot alternative of having on-average 27,000 sites a year (or more) without an article for 20 years (or more), I'm sure there's something we can agree on. So please just state your "acceptable" bot - alternative, and we'll see if we can do it technically. There's no reason that we can't pull the plug if the bot causes problems, and there's no reason that the bot can't be improved or speeded up if a consensus agrees to it later. A single step would be an improvement. For now it looks like the "holding pen" vs the "virtual holding pen" is the main hangup (and they are perhaps virtually identical?). I also possibly detect a bit of a personality conflict. One thing that I have always liked about this project is that everybody seems to do their own favorite tasks and generally add to the whole project, and very seldom do editors insist that things have to be done one way. And compared to other places on Wikipedia there is very little bickering. I'm sure there is a bot-assisted solution here that will not mortally offend anybody. I'm afraid building in penalties for over-promoting bot generated articles would mortally offend many people's Wiki-sensibilities - even if there was a way to do it under the rules, but WP:AGF and trust in your fellow editors will go a long way. Smallbones ( talk) 01:15, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
Despite some obviously long standing disagreements, I'd think we're almost agreed here on some minimal use of the bot. I'll note that nothing we say about bot-assisted editing can apply to editors who don't use the bot generated material. If they want to create stubs the old-fashioned way, they may according to Wikipedia rules that have been in force forever. I think the point of agreement can be along Dudemanfellabra's lines.
This is not as strict as RoyalBroil would like, and not as much as Doncram wants, but (call me optimistic) I don't think it should "mortally offend" anybody. It also opens up the use of the bot for 1,000s of articles (10,000s?) where we don't have much chance to come up with a solid article, but can at least get the basic facts out. We should schedule a review, say after 6 months or 1,000 bot assisted articles, and check out the technology with some trial runs and complete the bot approval process.
Is everybody at least ok with that? Smallbones ( talk) 16:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
Grand Forks County in North Dakota is currently mostly redlinks, and it includes ND's biggest university. Here are draft articles: Talk:National Register of Historic Places listings in Grand Forks County, North Dakota/drafts, in pretty good shape, if i do say so myself, for what a program can generate. :)
In my batch-generator program, one spin-off is a report of MPS's. For Grand Forks County, it reports there are 35 listings in the "Downtown Grand Forks MRA", 4 listings in the "Historic Roadway Bridges of North Dakota MPS", and one each in "Buechner and Orth Courthouses in North Dakota TR" and "North Dakota Round Barns TR". I tinkered with the generator so that it completes out MPS doc references for the first two. -- doncram ( talk) 21:50, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Blome, R. S., Granitoid Pavement in Grand Forks is a property in [[Grand Forks, North Dakota]] that was listed on the [[National Register of Historic Places]] in 1991. It was built or has other significance in 1911.<ref name=nris/> It was designed and/or built by Blome,R.S.,Co. of Chicago.<ref name=nris/> It includes [[ architecture| ]] and [[ architecture| ]] architecture style.<ref name=nris/> When listed the property included one [[contributing structure]].<ref name=nris/> The listing is for an area of {{convert|55 |acre}}.<ref name=nris/> The listing is described in its NRHP nomination document.<ref name="nrhpinv3">{{cite web |url=http://pdfhost.focus.nps.gov/docs/NRHP/Text/91001583.pdf |title=NRHP Inventory-Nomination: Blome, R. S., Granitoid Pavement in Grand Forks |author=___ |date=, 19 |publisher=[[National Park Service]]}} and [http://pdfhost.focus.nps.gov/docs/NRHP/Photos/91001583.pdf ‘‘Accompanying ____ photos, exterior and interior, from 19___ (see photo captions page __ of text document)’‘]</ref>
Please do not start a new article using one of these semi-automatically generated drafts unless you will revise the article to meet a "pretty good quality" standard within a short time. What that standard needs to be is under discussion (as of 12/2010, the pretty-good-quality-standard requested is being discussed at here), but any article brought up to "Start" article quality would certainly be okay. Please do not start more than, say, five, if you have not brought all previous ones up to that quality level.
Please do not start a new article using one of these semi-automatically generated drafts unless you will revise the article to meet a "pretty good quality" standard within a short time. What that standard needs to be is up for discussion (as of 12/2010, it's being discussed here), but any article brought up to "Start" article quality would certainly be okay. Please do not start more than, say, five, if you have not brought all previous ones up to that quality level. |
As Blueboar noted above, technically my current process of generating batches of draft articles may require a Bot approval, although it is not using a bot. So i opened Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/NRHP batch generator 3.0. One question opened there is whether batches of drafts should be placed at Talk subpage of a NRHP county-list-article, or placed in userspace or WikiProject NRHP project space. Please comment there if interested. -- doncram ( talk) 16:36, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
Also, FYI, the Tolland County, Connecticut /drafts assisted in completing out stub or starter articles for all its former redlinks. Recent changes in Tolland County NRHP articles shows last 30 days activity. Also, editor Pubdog has elsewhere provided some feedback that I'll address in any new batches. And, Scott County, Iowa editors are contemplating, if not actually using, the /drafts i provided there towards helping them improve their mostly-already-existing articles. -- doncram ( talk) 16:47, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
I am trying to add coordinates information to the output of the NRHP batches-of-articles-generator (BOAG?) program that i am developing. In the new NRIS database the UTM file, and in the old NRIS the UTMZONEM.DBF file, includes coordinates data in UTM format, i.e. with zone and easting and northing fields. These can be converted by complicated formulas to latitude and longitude. Websites will do it for one location at a time. Or there is Steven Dutch, Natural and Applied Sciences, University of Wisconsin - Green Bay's website which provides a spreadsheet to do conversion in a batch. In my software i could implement those formulas.
(A drawback is that it is assuming the UTM data is recorded under the 1983 coordinates system (NAD83 datum), while in fact most of it is under 1927 coordinates system (NAD27). I suspect this might implement what Elkman's system does. BTW, when we write a new infobox with coordinates, i think there oughta be included a coded comment that would be bot-readable, to allow for future improvements of coordinates by bots. Something like <!---- coordinates source: "NRIS 2010a UTMZONEM.DBF coords NAD83-interpreted" see [[wp:NRHPcoords]] ---> to indicate coordinates being sourced from the 2010a version of NRIS database's UTM.DBF file, interpreted as if they are NAD83 data (even though many/most are NAD27). That might allow a later bot to come by and replace the coordinates, if a NAD27->NAD83 converter is available, for example. Or it might help an editor interested in fixing coords, to find their way to wp:NRHPcoords and decipher what has been done. I dunno.)
Is that the way to go? Or is there some other way to get lat & long coords for NRHP-listed places? -- doncram ( talk) 20:48, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
I hope everybody gets to enjoy the holidays with family and friends. Yes, I know I have a backlog of North Dakota articles to write, but they may not get done until after a Happy New Year. The best to all! Smallbones ( talk) 21:05, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
I also wish you all a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! Einbierbitte ( talk) 22:18, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
In the March 13, 2009 version of NRIS, counts of NRHP listings by certification status code are:
and there's one empty entry.
It's come up several times that items where code is DR were actually later fully NRHP-listed.
All the ones identified as RN are well-documented on the internet, erroneously, as being listed on the very date that they were in fact delisted. I think creating really short stub articles on these ones, by a real bot or otherwise, to get the accurate information out, would be helpful. -- doncram ( talk) 20:41, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Ah, I totally forgot about contributing properties.. well that makes our numbers even worse haha: 30,843 (number has increased since yesterday) articles - 21 delisted properties - 651 contributing properties + 84 individually listed contributing properties (that are also in the CP category by virtue of autocategorization by the infobox) = 30,255 total, which means we have articles for 35.88% of current NRHP listings.... about 0.7% less than before. Assuming that the CP articles are more than likely not started in huge stub drives (confirmed by a random spot check of the first page of the category), most of them are of decent start+ quality. This means that that 7.39% number I mentioned above should actually be lower, although I'm not sure by how much. If I had to guess, I'd say lower than 7.00%. If someone were willing to tabulate the class stats for all 651 CPs, we could find out exactly.. but the point is we just don't have a very good coverage of sites on the register... even after more than 4 years of work. Wow.
As a side note, I'm not even sure these refined numbers are accurate. During my spot check, I kept coming across unassessed articles or articles without NRHP project tags on their talk pages. Maybe we should start a drive to go through all the county lists and make sure they all have project tags? I could do Mississippi if you'd like. After the drive, we could reassess our progress and see if we can't make those numbers jump a little higher?-- Dudemanfellabra ( talk) 19:05, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
I've been accused of making disruptive changes ( User talk:Altairisfar#Twin Oaks Plantation) to an article that I created in January of 2009 with the name of Twin Oaks Plantation. I recently became aware of new sources (including a new book on Alabama plantations that I recently purchased) as to the correct current name, Everhope Plantation, and made some quick changes, including a page move (without adding the sources, though I had planned to do so on my next days off from work). These were reverted with the edit summary "NRHP and sources do not support changes." So the next day, I moved it back and did an expansion, using the new sources. I've been asked to move it back to the Twin Oaks Plantation name and undo my expansion, does anyone else feel that this would be appropriate? Thanks. Altair isfar 22:12, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
FYI, at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places/Architects2009a are counts from the 2009a version of NRIS for the most commonly named architects. Elkman once reported that Louis A. Simon has the most, but here's more. All of the NRHP-listed works for some of these architects have been identified in their articles (or in their Talk pages), including (from memory) for:
If anyone is interested in doing an article drive on any architect, lemme know and i can provide what i hope would be a helpful batch of drafted starter articles, like those at Talk:Ralph Adams Cram/drafts or better quality.
Also I could maybe run a report of counts by state, of top architects in each state. Any other architect reports of interest? -- Doncram ( talk) 22:50, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
New version, now in alpha order, of architect names ready for cleaning. Currently just the first 5,000. Some corrections to make good wikilinks are clear, like unwrapping "Lastname,Firstname" names, e.g. from Anshutz,Joseph W. to Joseph W. Anshutz. Some problems are clear, like there must be one correct version for all of these five (all currently showing as redlinks):
But which name should all five of those be changed to, in editing the wikilink? Assuming one name is chosen, then there will be just one wikilink used for the corresponding 12 (1+1+4+5+1) NRIS entries. Note, clearly the following one is different and should not be changed to include "and Rantoul".
There are lots of architect-merger-type decisions which are unclear. I suppose i could revise the cleaning report to state in a following row, for architect names having just one NRIS entry, what is the refnum and name and city and state for the building or other property. Maybe that would allow a cleanup editor to do research in some of these cases. Hmm. -- Doncram ( talk) 08:13, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Robert D. Andrews. Boston Architectural Club Exhibition Catalog (Boston: Boston Architectural Club, 1904). Andrews was a member of [ Henry Hobson Richardson ]'s office staff whose career flourished in Boston in the years following Richardson's death. Longfellow described Andrews's role in Richardson's office as "making pretty drawings of facades and perspectives" for the clients (AWL to ECPL, Nahant, 5 March 1882, LA). Andrews would joing Herbert Jacques and Augustus Neal Rancoul in practice.
Augustus Neal Rantoul died in Santa Barbara, California. He was one of the sons of Robert S. Rantoul, who was an early Salem mayor and longtime President of the Essex Institute. Augustus was an architect whose firm in Boston was Andrews, Jaques & Rantoul. He was born and lived for many years at his father’s home at 17 Winter Street in Salem.
Not surprisingly, "Other" tops the list in frequency of architectural style types noted in the new 2010a version of NRIS. Greek Revival architecture, a favorite of mine, is the top real one with 7,839 NRHPs being recorded as having it. What is Early Republic style, anyhow? Not very common in NRHP, there are just 317 of this type. Early Republic architecture is a link to where something could be written about it; Category:Early Republic architecture is a brand new category. All 88 Exotic Revival architecture NRHPs could be covered in one list-article.
The 40 style types are unchanged in the new 2010a NRIS vs. the 2009a and perhaps all previous NRIS versions. Only 3 of these can be recorded for each NRHP listing, so historic districts whose NRHP nom docs clearly describe many more styles, only get 3. There's one free field for NRIS data entry of another architectural phrase, though, which allows for some unusual architectural descriptions. The 40 standard styles are, by frequency in the new NRIS:
RANK ARCHITECTURAL_STYLE COUNT ---- ------------------- ----- 1 OTHER 20453 2 NO STYLE LISTED 17771 3 GREEK REVIVAL 7839 4 COLONIAL REVIVAL 5473 5 ITALIANATE 5360 6 QUEEN ANNE 5355 7 CLASSICAL REVIVAL 4830 8 FEDERAL 4812 9 LATE VICTORIAN 4378 10 BUNGALOW/CRAFTSMAN 3639 11 LATE 19TH AND 20TH CENTURY REVIVALS 3184 12 ROMANESQUE 2894 13 GOTHIC REVIVAL 1962 14 MISSION/SPANISH REVIVAL 1525 15 GOTHIC 1501 16 GEORGIAN 1490 17 TUDOR REVIVAL 1464 18 RENAISSANCE 1426 19 ART DECO 1260 20 LATE GOTHIC REVIVAL 1200 21 COLONIAL 1189 22 LATE 19TH AND EARLY 20TH CENTURY AMERICAN MOVEMENTS 1185 23 EARLY COMMERCIAL 1114 24 SECOND EMPIRE 1098 25 BEAUX ARTS 1005 26 STICK/EASTLAKE 912 27 MODERNE 773 28 PRAIRIE SCHOOL 760 29 MODERN MOVEMENT 693 30 MID 19TH CENTURY REVIVAL 670 31 SHINGLE STYLE 599 32 CHICAGO 414 33 MIXED (MORE THAN 2 STYLES FROM DIFFERENT PERIODS) 325 34 EARLY REPUBLIC 317 35 INTERNATIONAL STYLE 272 36 ITALIAN VILLA 258 37 PUEBLO 135 38 OCTAGON MODE 115 39 EXOTIC REVIVAL 88 40 SKYSCRAPER 87
Different coding of data within the 2010a NRIS might possibly work better for brand-new programmers/users of the data, but is a pain for those with programs expecting the 2009a format of data. I for one have decided to reverse the change in architectural style coding reflected in the 2010a version, by internally reconstructing the ARSTYLCD field that was in the 2009a, so that my programs following that conversion can run the same.
Your correspondent. -- Doncram ( talk) 06:12, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
I've just created an article on the Lincoln Motor Company Plant, it of the singular NX designation. I suspect I didn't get the infobox designation correct, so please take a look. Andrew Jameson ( talk) 18:04, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
|delisted=
only applies to delisting from the register entirely. If it has only been removed from a single designation, use the |delisted_nrhp_type=
parameter.--
Dudemanfellabra (
talk)
18:09, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
In December there were 3 NRHP lists added to the fully illustrated category, one each in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Florida, with the last pix added by User:Royalbroil, User:Andrew Jameson and User:Ebyabe. Congrats! For 2010 the NRHP FI lists increased from 47 lists with 1301 pictures, to 126 lists with 4025 pix. That's a lot of progress. Cheers to all who contributed. Smallbones ( talk) 16:41, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Doncram above suggested some change to this section since folks haven't been using it. I've cleaned out the 3 or 4 requests from 2010, but the 2 or 3 dozen requests from Sept 2009 and before remain. The directions or mechanics of the page don't seem to work well - articles that were reassessed remain in the to-do list at the top of this page. I'll suggest getting rid of the whole section and in the instructions put "If you wish an article to be reassessed simply remove the current assessment. The article will then be automatically be placed in the category of unassessed articles, and be assessed anew in due course." (or similar). If we can't reassess articles within a year under the current system, then we need to do something else. Smallbones ( talk) 02:53, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
We have a lot of "address restricted" sites in Missouri. These are mostly Native American burial sites and such. Obviously we don't want pictures of the actual sites as this kinda undermines the whole purpose of restricting the site addresses. That said, I would still like to fully illustrate our county lists. Are there any generic "archeological site" images that could be used for all these address restricted sites? If not, does anyone have any thoughts on what such an image would look like or the means to create one? HornColumbia talk 18:01, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
Category:Railway-related National Historic Landmarks, is a recently created category that has been nominated by another editor for deletion. It looks like NHLs are currently categorized by location except for this cat and lighthouses, both of which are fairly recent groupings. I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other but, if you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. RevelationDirect ( talk) 04:25, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
I dunno why i was not aware of it before, but came across Wikipedia:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places/Popular pages, which is useful to Watchlist for monthly updates. Adding to my Watchlist now. Oddly, there is a AT&T Building (Kingman, Arizona) which stands out as a stub article but receiving a ton of hits. Perhaps from being target of redirect AT&T Building. Dunno where readers are really looking for, probably not the telephone exchange building in Obscuretown, Arizona (which i hev bin 2). And Keeper of the Register, which should be a Top priority for us, is another stub getting tons of hits. Many higher-quality-rated articles seem okay, not so much from our work but ok nonetheless. -:) - Doncram ( talk) 05:50, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
I don't know why, originally, this Wikiproject did not assign Importance ratings to articles. Maybe so little was known, at first, that it seemed unhelpful? But can we agree now to begin to use importance ratings, and use that to guide our article improvement efforts?
FYI, i am finding myself in difficulty at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Connecticut#New contest, where i am arguing that CT NHLs should be considered High importance for WikiProject Connecticut and hence be eligible for its new article improvement contest. Unfortunately, the National Historic Landmarks article, the List of NHLs in CT article, and most of the 60 separate CT NHL articles don't do a great job, yet, of explaining why they are important to the state and/or to the nation. (Comments there welcome! I'd be especially happy if anyone else would commit to developing a CT NHL article within the contest, if those would be deemed contest-eligible.)
It has been asserted from time to time that having short stub NRHP articles is somehow bad. I happen to think having a short stub is good and is all that is needed for many NRHPs, like for remote farmhouse ones which are NRHP-listed merely because of being the best local representative of a given architectural style. It's not important to further develop such articles, IMHO, although developing them is fine if someone local happens to get interested. However it is important to develop the National Historic Landmark ones; I would give all of those High importance now. I'd be interested in seeing our articles assessment table, at Wikipedia:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places#Collaboration and assessment, show how many of these high importance ones are stubs vs. start vs. better. -- Doncram ( talk) 18:11, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
|importance=
parameter. Then we'd have to create a guideline like
this one. Then we'd have to go through all 30,941 (as of 2011-01-01, 18:26 (UTC)) articles and assign them importances. A daunting task to say the least.--
Dudemanfellabra (
talk)
18:42, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Smallbones ( talk) 20:01, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Label | Criteria | Examples |
---|---|---|
Top |
|
National Register of Historic Places National Historic Landmark Contributing property National Historic Preservation Act of 1966 State Historic Preservation Office National Park Service No specific sites yet discussed List of NHLs; List of RHPs |
High |
|
Manzanar Frank Lloyd Wright; Tourtellotte & Hummel Greek Revival architecture List of NHLs in AL; List of RHPs in AL |
Mid |
|
Atalaya Castle Boston Public Garden Land of the Cross-Tipped Churches Herkimer Home State Historic Site Shingle Style architecture; Exotic Revival architecture Conde McCullough; Ward Wellington Ward National Register of Historic Places listings in North Side Chicago; List of Elks buildings |
Low |
|
Phoenixville Historic District List of contributing properties in the St. Anthony Falls Historic District |
Bottom |
|
(examples needed) |
I just edited slightly the above table. I think articles about the register itself should also be top-importance, and I think sites that have also been recognized by other registers (NPS, state, or local organizations) should be included with the individually listed CPs. What do you guys think?-- Dudemanfellabra ( talk) 20:45, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
I'd really rather keep the top priorities small, to really allow us to focus effort, and to allow locally knowledgeable editors room to kick up the importance from Low to Mid of something they know is really important. I like setting default ratings objectively, as suggested by several, but how about then allowing the NRHP editors in a given state, discussing at Talk page of the state-level list-article, with invited participation of WikiProject STATE editors, getting to refine the objective rating system in their state, as long as they keep High % to less than 3% and Mid or higher to less than 10%. So as to disregard NJ and NY state designations, because there every NRHP is automatically getting that rating, but in NY using the handful of State Historic sites to some effect. And allowing for explicit discussion, like how in central New York the Niagara Mohawk Building, which should really be a National Historic Landmark but doesn't get a boost from any objective criteria so far discussed, has to get higher importance rating.
(Second table commented out)
A problem I have with the scale as proposed is that it's top-heavy. There ought to be way more "low-importance" articles than anything else, but right now, in the proposed scale above, "low-importance" is reserved for buildings and people that are typically not notable enough to warrant an article anyway. (There are specific exceptions, obviously, but not, I think, enough to even be near the 80,000 NRHP-listings.) This effectively produces a three-level importance scale rather than a four-level scale.
Furthermore, I don't think importance levels should be assigned based on the need for an article drive, or the perception that "low-importance" articles are somehow "no-importance" articles. Importance levels should be assigned only to differentiate the articles that are of greater importance to the average reader. Greater importance means an ever-narrowing pyramid of numbers.
As an example, look at WikiProject Biography. They have a short, resonable statement on the relativity of their priority scale. And, specifically, they've chosen to restrict the number of "top-importance" to 200 out of a current article list of over 800,000 (and a potential article list of far more than that). That's a little extreme, but Michigan has only 23 "top-priority" articles out of 7000-ish written articles, and Connecticut (the example given above) has 100 top-priority out of 5000-ish written articles. Presumably, for both states, the "top-priority" (and most of the "high-priority") articles are already written, so further articles would be primarily in the mid- and low-importance areas.
Looking at both Michigan and Connecticut, I see article-count dropoffs in the range of 3X to 10X as the importance increases. Note these are for articles already written; presumably, for both states, further articles would be primarily in the mid- and low-importance areas, increasing the dropoff rate there. This NRHP project has a relatively limited scope of "historic places" articles: the 85,000+ listings (plus some additional contributing property articles) for something like 100,000 up to maybe 150,000 articles total, ignoring architects and lists and other things for the nonce.
Given that, I think the project should shoot for a priority scale that leads to dropoff rates in the 5X to 10X range. For example, at 7X, that gives:
Obviously one can argue about exactly what dropoff rate is appropriate, but I think placing most articles in the "mid priority" category defeats the purpose of a priority scale. Andrew Jameson ( talk) 13:00, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
If people are worried about insulting other people's articles then perhaps you should take the approach of the maths project and use the term "priority" instead of "importance". Low-priority does not reflect on the article itself (which some may regard as important) but simply says it not a priority for the project. — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 16:43, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
For what it's worth, the National Register database assigns a level of significance to each property. The levels are "Local", "State", "National", and "International". I'm not sure about the ones marked "International" (see below), but the national level ones look to be accurate, like Chrysler Building, Lever House, Fort Snelling, James J. Hill House, and Washburn A Mill. Properties significant at the state level, like in Minnesota, are places like Cedar Avenue Bridge, Foshay Tower, Hesper (shipwreck), Intercity Bridge, and so on. Finally, the ones significant at the local level, like in Minnesota, are places like the Lumber Exchange Building, Jackson Hotel, Great Northern Depot (Princeton, Minnesota), and Soo Line Depot (Crosby, Minnesota). I would tend to think that the ones important at the national level should be ranked higher than the ones important at the state and local levels.
As an aside, there are only 30 with a level of "International", but I'm wondering if those are accurate. Forestville Baptist Church is marked International, but I'm not sure if that's accurate. -- Elkman (Elkspeak) 22:27, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
On nationalregisterofhistoricplaces.com, there is an entry for the Chilhowee Park Historic District in Knox County, Tennessee, supposedly listed in 2005. The reference number given is 00501039. However, the Chilhowee Park HD is apparently not on the Register, and a search for the reference number on the NRHP's database brings up no matches. Furthermore, I found a nomination form for the Chilhowee Park HD here (starts on page 4), dated January 2009, with the exact same streets given as the 2005 listing. Does this mean it was nominated in 2005, but the NRHP rejected it? Bms4880 ( talk) 21:07, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Categories 1) and 3) are in the tables now - no objection. Category 2) - we might as well wait until we find out exactly what it is. Category 4), I'd rather not bother. One point against it is that the owners have asked to not be listed presumably for reasons of privacy or perhaps to avoid vandalism, looting, etc. Smallbones ( talk) 18:57, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
I noticed on the CPHD nomination form that one of the areas of significance is 1956-1959. It's possible they decided to wait until 2009 in order to meet the less-rigorous 50-year rule. In any case, I've split off and expanded the neighborhood info to Chilhowee Park (neighborhood). Bms4880 ( talk) 23:47, 8 January 2011 (UTC)