Currently there are two systems used for local administrative divisions here in the English wiki: the one that translates their names to English and the one that leaves them in their original version.
What do we do with powiats? Should the pages be created under Przasnysz County or Powiat przasnyski? Or perhaps Powiat of Przasnysz? Or perhaps we do not need the powiat pages at all and could simply place a table with powiat info and map at Przasnysz? Halibutt 11:37, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
If anyone is advocating using any diacriticals in the article name, I believe that is strictly prohibited in WikiPedia. They can only be used within the article, AFAIK. 04:23, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I humbly propose that a powiat be a district, and a województwo - a province. In particular, I'm against the use of the mediaeval term "voivodship" to describe the present-day unit of administrative division. See also http://www.serwistlumacza.com/texts/tlumnazw.html MCiura 19:46, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Back to the main topic: I hope some native English speaker could tell us whether the suffix -ship is ever used in English to mean: a territory ruled by a —. Does the -ship in voivodship suggest the domain or rather the office of a voivod?
Besides, province could be a good English equivalent of województwo, but I guess that palatinate would be a better one; palatinatus was the word used for województwo (and palatinus for wojewoda) in pre-partition documents written in Latin. Modern Polish naming of administrative units is clearly based on historical terminology, and this should be also reflected in English translations. Moreover, in pre-partition times, prowincja meant a very large portion of the whole country; basically, there were only three provinces - Greater Poland, Lesser Poland and Lithuania, each consisting of a number of palatinates/województwa.
The same goes for powiat which may be translated as district (though it's very ambiguous) or - from a historical POV - as prefecture.
--
Kpalion 22:29, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've just found out that wojewoda is also called "waywode" in English (see Brainy Dictionary), and hence there also is a "waywodeship". -- Kpalion 15:00, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
User\proposal | Voivodship | powiat | gmina | sołectwo, hutor, etc |
---|---|---|---|---|
[[User:Halibutt| Halibutt]] | Voivodship | powiat | commune | ? |
MCiura | province | district | municipality | ? |
Kpalion | palatinate / voivodship | prefecture / district | commune | hamlet |
Emax | Voivodship | Powiat | Gmina | none |
Proponuje by uzywac roznych kolorow: Wojewodztwa brazowy Podlasie Voivodship, miasta szary przyklad Krakow, osiedla bezowy przyklad Centrum. Dla powiatow i gmin rowniez odmienne.
Na Podlasie Voivodship propozycja tabelki do wojewodztw i szablonik (z herbem) jak np na Lomza. Rowniez szablonik do osiedli (z flaga) jak na centrum. -- Emax 22:47, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
At pl, there's a project to use a bot to generate/update articles about Polish cities, counties and communes: pl:Wikipedia:Automatycznie generowane artykuły. Maybe the same data (when it's compiled) could be used to generate them at en:? Here are two examples of articles which will be used as templates for future bot-generated ones: Gostyn, Stary Gostyn. Any comments? Ausir 22:21, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Voivodship | Example | #CDAA7D |
Powiat (County) | Example | #C1CDC1 |
Gmina (Commune) | Example | #9BCD9B |
-- Emax 20:00, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Currently, we have only one: {{ Poland-geo-stub}}. It is getting very large, with over 800 articles. See Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/Archive13#Poland_geo-stub_split for proposal on splitting this category further. Division by voivodships seems like a good idea - if any voivodship would have 30+ articles (wikiproject minimum limit), we can create a relavant stub. A Poland-struct-stub seems more disputed, but I also think it would be useful. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:46, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Having arrived belatedly to this discussion, but feeling strongly about the subject, I would like to add my voice to those who advocate using familiar English-language terms where feasible: hence, " county" for powiat, and " province" for województwo.
I suspect that this model could be applied satisfactorily to most countries; and that seems preferable to operating with dozens of equivalent terms. logologist 09:30, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
I would like to help making the usage of administrative terms consistent (I have started with Powiat of Chodzież and Powiat of Czarnków-Trzcianka). While looking over the various pre-existing county/powiat articles, the terminology used to describe the administrative district often varies:
The gmina names themselves vary often: Powiat of Białystok has " Gmina of Choroszcz", while Powiat of Gorzów Wielkopolski just has Lubiszyn instead of Gmina of Lubiszyn.
Shouldn't the categories be renamed (ala Category:Land counties of Greater Poland to Category:Powiats of Greater Poland)?
Finally, User:Logologist has suggested that Voivodships should be Provinces, while Halibutt and Balcer support Voivodships. I am neutral on the matter. Olessi 21:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
The word "province" is no longer used in Poland to designate an entity larger than the modern województwo; the old usage is now of purely historical interest. No one in Poland now speaks of the "prowincja" of Małopolska, Wielkopolska or Lithuania. Any potential confusion can be avoided by rendering the old concept of prowincja using its Polish spelling (prowincja).
In what language is Podlasie called Podlachia?
Do you really think that "Świętokrzyskie [adjective] Voivodship" is better in English than "Święty Krzyż" (noun)? English as a rule (offhand, I can't think of an exception) doesn't use adjectives, only nouns, as names. There is, for example, no "New-Yorkan State."
Why use Latinized names (Masuria, Pomerania, Masovia, Silesia) or anglicized names (Lesser Poland) when the Polish names are perfectly good? Do we "translate" most French geographical names into English?
A number of the Latinized names are associated in most non-Poles' minds with those areas' occupation (therefore, "ownership") by the powers that partitioned Poland and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
logologist| Talk 11:44, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Prowincja can be a insulting term in the modern Poland for example "They are from the province" is used to portay people as inferior in social status.
CIA World Factbook I think has a good solution:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/pl.html
16 provinces (wojewodztwa, singular - wojewodztwo); Dolnoslaskie, Kujawsko-Pomorskie, Lodzkie, Lubelskie, Lubuskie, Malopolskie, Mazowieckie, Opolskie, Podkarpackie, Podlaskie, Pomorskie, Slaskie, Swietokrzyskie, Warminsko-Mazurskie, Wielkopolskie, Zachodniopomorskie
After the simplified name we can give exact Polish sounding version. We also should split wojewodztwa from regions-right now it comes to absurdities like some administrative regions in Poland having German names given also because they are combined with entries of historic regions. -- Molobo 20:09, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
The English adjective "provincial" has the same deprecatory potential as the Polish expression, "z prowincji."
Nevertheless, as the Wikipedia article on " Province" demonstrates, "province" is the usual English translation for the secondary level of government in most countries. (A few countries do use alternative terms — "state," "prefecture," "län," "region," "Land," "muhfazah.")
The 18th-century Polish "prowincyja," or its plural "prowincyje," referring to Wielkopolska, Małopolska or Lithuania, appears in the basic text of the Polish Constitution of May 3, 1791 (available on Wikisource) a grand total of 8 times — 7 of them in the closing "Signers" section.
It would seem a shame, in this case, to break ranks with nearly all the rest of the world and abandon a universally recognizable term, "province," from a misguided loyalty to a usage that has long been obsolete in Poland and that was seldom really indispensable even before the Partitions of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
I am for using voivodship and county. Perhaps we should have a vote? Also, those of you who have not read through Talk:Voivodships of Poland should do so - there are quite a few interesting arguments and statistics there.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:47, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I propose we begin with the perhaps somewhat less contentious " powiat"–" county" controversy, and leave " voivodship"–" province" for a second round. This will give people a chance to review the arguments in the second question, and perhaps debate it more definitively. logologist| Talk 03:52, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
No doubt by "Mazovia" you mean "Masovia." Either way, I hate to break it to you, outside Poland and perhaps some parts of Europe, not too many people have heard of Mazovia, Masovia or Mazowsze. So I doubt that it makes much difference to 99% of humanity. Accordingly, using authentic Polish names for Polish places seems the appropriate thing, and — who knows — may spare foreign visitors some confusion. logologist| Talk 09:42, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
After reading the discussion here and at Talk:Voivodships of Poland, I support using the more specialized "Voivodship" instead of "Province". As a native English speaker, I personally prefer using English/Latin names like "Masovia" or "Masovian" instead of "Mazowsze" or "Mazowieckie". I have been trying to learn Polish pronunciation and the names are still difficult for me to read- it would be very difficult for someone with no background in Polish at all (the majority of Wiki-users) to try to read the words. I don't have an easy solution for "Województwo świętokrzyskie", however. I agree with Molobo that Lower Silesia and the current Dolny Śląsk Voivodship need to be differentiated the way that Masovia and Mazowsze Voivodship are (any others?). BTW, Podlachia is the Latin name for Podlasie (Podlasia is also used occasionally). I think this discussion could use more input by native English users, IMO. Olessi 07:04, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Ok, let's vote on Powiat vs. County and Gmina vs. Commune for start. BTW If you think that this proposal should be expanded, please, feel free to do so.-- SylwiaS | talk 01:56, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
By the way, we're going to generate articles about all powiats and gminas with a bot, like we dit at pl:, but we'll wait until this vote and the voivodship one are concluded. Ausir 09:24, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Since voting began above, "Puławy District" and "Choroszcz Municipality" have been added. What are the Polish originals of these terms, and what do they refer to? Definitions would be helpful, if we are to vote on them too. logologist| Talk 15:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
How to translate things like gmina miejska, miasto na prawach powiatu etc. I don't feel it's right to translate them county/commune, even though i support calling normal powiats/gminas "county/commune". Taw 20:32, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I think we can close the vote in favour of "Puławy County" and "Choroszcz Commune", and start renaming the articles. I find Balcer's point valid, so the terms "powiat" and "gmina" should be mentioned. Maybe simply it should take this form in the lead of the articles:
Puławy County ( pl: powiat puławski)... -- SylwiaS | talk 17:09, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Here's an external link with analysis of this situation, citing two biggest and most popular Polish-English/English-Polish dictionaries and other sources: http://accurapid.com/journal/29poldic.htm
Here's a summary (not all of the terms were given in the article, I also added some from the discussion above):
Polish | Oxford- PWN | Kosciuszko Foundation | TEPIS | poland.gov.pl | Ministry of Interior website | Other |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
powiat | powiat/county | district | poviat | powiat | district/powiat | |
gmina | district | commune | gmina | gmina | gmina | municipality |
województwo | province | province | voivodeship | voivodeship | voivodship/province | |
wójt | borough leader | voit | voigt | |||
starosta | starosta | staroste | district governor | county foreman | ||
wojewoda | provincial governor | governor | voivode | voivod/voivodship governor |
Based on this, I'd say county and leaving powiat in the Polish are probably just as legitimate. Using district is a pretty bad idea, as it is used as a translation of powiat by KF and as a translation of gmina by Oxford-PWN, not to mention rejon and dystrykt. County is the most popular choice among Polish translators. On the other hand, looks like "poviat" is recommended by Polish Society of Economic, Legal and Court Translators (TEPIS) [1].
As for gmina, if we are not to use the ambiguous district recommended by Oxford-PWN, I'd say commune is the best choice, as it is the recommended option for European countries in KF. Commune seems to be the most popular choice among Polish translators, although "gmina" is recommended by TEPIS.
As for województwo, it's even tougher - two major dictionaries support "province", while the voivodships themselves use different terms on the official websites:
Województwo | Official website | poland.gov.pl | TEPIS |
---|---|---|---|
dolnośląskie | Lower Silesia Voivodeship | The Voivodeship of Lower Silesia | Dolnośląskie Voivodeship |
kujawsko-pomorskie | Kujawsko-Pomorskie Voivodeship | The Voivodeship of Cuiavia and Pomerania | Kujawsko-Pomorskie Voivodeship |
lubelskie | no English website | The Voivodeship of Lublin | Lubelskie Voivodeship |
lubuskie | Lubuskie Province | The Voivodeship of Lubusz | Lubuskie Voivodeship |
łódzkie | Lodz Voivodship | The Voivodeship of Łódź | Łódzkie Voivodeship |
małopolskie | Małopolska Region | The Voivodeship of Lesser Poland | Małopolskie Voivodeship |
mazowieckie | Mazowieckie Voivodeship | The Voivodeship of Mazovia | Mazowieckie Voivodeship |
opolskie | Opolskie Voivodeship | The Voivodeship of Opole | Opolskie Voivodeship |
podkarpackie | no English website | The Voivodeship of Sub-Carpathia | Podkarpackie Voivodeship |
podlaskie | no English website | The Voivodeship of Podlassia | Podlaskie Voivodeship |
pomorskie | Pomorskie Voivodeship | The Voivodeship of Pomerania | Pomorskie Voivodeship |
śląskie | Śląsk Voivodeship | The Voivodeship of Silesia | Śląskie Voivodeship |
świętokrzyskie | Świętokrzyskie Voivodship | The Voivodeship of Kielce | Świętokrzyskie Voivodeship |
warmińsko-mazurskie | no English website | The Voivodeship of Varmia and Masuria | Warmińsko-Mazurskie Voivodeship |
wielkopolskie | Wielkopolska Region | The Voivodeship of Greater Poland | Wielkopolskie Voivodeship |
zachodniopomorskie | Zachodniopomorskie Voivodeship | The Voivodeship of Western Pomerania | Zachodniopomorskie Voivodeship |
As you can see, half of the official websites use "voivodeship", the term recommended by TEPIS. Only 2 use "voivodship", the term currently used in Wikipedia. Ausir 13:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I think we should first give people some time to present their proposals and only then start the vote. Ausir 17:25, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Some other terms where we need to choose a translation to be used in Wikipedia.
==== county==== (Any county that is not a " city -county" — see below.)
Used by the government.
==== city -county==== (e.g., Warsaw City-County — as in " City and County of San Francisco" and " City and County of Denver").
Any other proposals?
Here, I believe votes for "wójt", "voit" and "vogt" should be counted together when counted against "commune chief". Same with "starosta", "staroste" and "starost" against "county chief" as it can be assumed that people who vote for one of them would prefer any of the other variants of the same word than a completely different one. Ausir 17:51, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
#
logologist|
Talk
06:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
#
logologist|
Talk
06:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I just created a new template, Subdivision term Polish (based on a similar one for Spanish-speaking countries) and put it in some articles to see what it looks like. Please take a look and say how you like it. Of course, it may be updated according to the agreements reached on this talk page. Kpalion 14:06, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Who invented that name? I never saw it in use anywhere and it seems like a joke. Reminds me of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest... Halibu tt 21:28, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
" Staroste" looks like something written by an English-speaker who can't spell in any language. It reflects badly on both the English-speakers and the Poles. If the Polish word " starosta" is retained, then by all means at least spell it correctly! logologist| Talk 16:32, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
The commonest English name for a national second-level administrative unit, corresponding among others to the Polish " województwo," is " province."
The Polish version of this word ("prowincja") was used somewhat differently in the pre- Partition Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, as a term designating each of the Commonwealth's three major constituent parts: Wielkopolska ("Greater Poland"), Małopolska ("Lesser Poland"), and Lithuania. Since Poland's resumption of independence at the end of World War I, however, "prowincja" has not been applied to any Polish political entity. Hence the English word " province" may be used, with no risk of confusion, for Poland's post-World War I województwa (the plural of "województwo").
Discussions of the pre-Partition Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth will apply the word "province" to Wielkopolska, Małopolska and Lithuania, and will use the Polish word "województwo" (preferably, in English-language texts, not the "Polish"-English hybrid word, "voivodship") to designate what today may in English be termed a "province."
During the Partitions period, "province" referred to certain "provinces" governed by the partitioning powers.
There is, in any case, no compelling reason to avoid using the English word " province" to designate Poland's present-day województwa.
A województwo (" province") is governed by a wojewoda, which may be rendered in English as " governor."
On this document (PDF
[2]) published by Commission for Standardisation of Geographical Names Outside Poland (official standardization body) there are official translation of names of Polish administrative units.
Województwo = Voivodship (or province)
powiat = county (land counties and urban counties)
gmina = commune (rural communes, urban-rular communes, urban communes)
See at official map of Poland
[3]
Aotearoa from Poland
21:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Whatever the outcome of the above votes, if we use Polish terms, let's use Polish grammatical rules for making plurals instead of creating some terrible hybrids (so powiaty, not powiats, gminy, not gminas). Kpalion 13:15, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Hello. I'm a member of the Version 1.0 Editorial Team, which is looking to identify quality articles in Wikipedia for future publication on CD or paper. We recently began assessing articles using these criteria, and we are are asking for your help. As you are most aware of the issues surrounding your focus area, we are wondering if you could provide us with a list of the articles that fall within the scope of your WikiProject, and that are either featured, A-class, B-class, or Good articles, with no POV or copyright problems. Do you have any recommendations? If you do, please post your suggestions at the listing of all active Places WikiProjects, and if you have any questions, ask me in the Work Via WikiProjects talk page or directly in my talk page. Thanks a lot! Tito xd( ?!? - help us) 18:37, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I have received a commentary on the issues we are discussing here from Dr. Danuta Kierzkowska, President of Polish Society of Economic, Legal and Court Translators TEPIS (Polskie Towarzystwo Tłumaczy Przysięgłych i Specjalistycznych TEPIS [4]), as well as her perimission to post relevant parts of her email here. I will post the original Polish text here, and I'll translate it when I have more time (feel free to do so before me :>). I'd also like to thank Dr. Kierzkowska for her much needed expert contribution to our debate.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 01:49, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Temat dyskutowany w Wikipedii jest kontrowersyjny od wieków i nawet powołanie na poziomie międzyanarodowym lub narodowym, rządowym lub naukowym (PAN), specjalnej komisji, która podjęłaby decyzję na ten temat, nie rozwiązałoby problemu, bo ludzie i tak pozostaliby przy swoich poglądach, a decyzja mogłaby mieć przecież formę zaleceń, a nie przepisów prawa. Cała sprawa jest o tyle mało ekscytująca dla tłumaczy, o ile zawsze było im wiadomo, że racje są jednakowo po obu stronach. Żadna decyzja nie zmieni faktu, że zapożyczenie jest jedną ze znanych i uznanych od wieków technik tłumaczeniowych, które jednak nie wyklucza i nigdy nie wykluczało stosowania w tłumaczeniu wersji przyjętych w języku docelowym. Jedna i druga technika ma swoje racje bytu, więc żadne tutaj rozstrzygnięcie nie będzie ostateczne. Oczywiście dylemat ma specyficzny aspekt ambicjonalny natury międzynarodowej, ponieważ każe wybierać między "właścicielem" pojęcia w języku źródłowym a "właścicielem" języka docelowego, z których każdy chce być ważniejszy. Jako więc "właściciele" języka polskiego, naśladując brytyjski imperalizm językowy, powinniśmy mówić o województwach i powiatach w Anglii, zaś uznając post-jałtańskich "właścicieli" byłych miast polskich (i bojąc się posądzenia o rewizjonizm), powinniśmy mówić o Lvivie i Vilniusie ... I tak dalej. Skądinąd trend rządów (nie tylko) europejskich, aby "być sobą" i pozostawiać w oryginalnym brzmieniu Reichstag, Kneset, Dumę i Sejm wymownie wskazuje na tendencję w pewnym zakresie, i chociaż nie musi się to wszystkim podobać, to na ogół taką wolę się szanuje. Natomiast co do propozycji głosowania to powiem tylko tyle, że na co dzień posługuję się zasadą: "Składu substancji chemicznej nie ustala się w drodze plebiscytu". A tam, gdzie nie do końca o czystą wiedzę chodzi, tylko o kolor lub styl - to trzeba po prostu coś wybrać i na coś się zdecydować. Właściciel portalu (Wikipedia), jeżeli chce mieć u siebie porządek (a musi?), powinien przyjąć jedną z dwóch opcji i jej przestrzegać. Ponieważ wie, że zawsze w ten sposób narazi się którejś ze stron, to woli - być może całkiem świadomie - nie podejmować żadnej decyzji i pozostawić świat bez retuszu - pełen międzynarodowych dysonansów, które dają jednak prawdziwy obraz rzeczywistości. Albo ukuć jakąś formułę salomonową, która zadowoliłaby obie strony. Ale to jest ich problem. |
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Dr. Kierzkowska's above remarks on translation highlight a valid point: There are many ways to skin a cat. The approach a translator takes may vary, depending on his understanding of the process and purpose.
There is an entire spectrum of approaches to translation. At one extreme, paradoxically, is non-translation. The Christian and Muslim worlds long disapproved of translating, respectively, the Latin Vulgate Bible and the Qur'an. William Tyndale, who had ventured to translate the Bible into English, was in 1536 strangled and burned at the stake. Muslims the world over, Arabic- and non-Arabic-speaking, to this day recite the sacred words of the Qur'an in the original Arabic.
At the opposite end of the spectrum is 100% translation, right down to proper names of persons and geographic entities.
As a practical matter, translators generally use target-language expressions where adequate equivalents exist, while — when necessary — importing source-language expressions into the target language, thereby creating target-language neologisms that are either loanwords or calques.
In the matter of translating Polish geographic terms into English, there are several schools of thought. One is to retain, wholly or partly unchanged, source-language generic expressions (" powiat," " voivodship") while "translating" proper names (as " Silesia," " Mazovia," " Greater Poland," etc.). The converse approach is to render Polish generic terms by English equivalents (" county," " province") while retaining Polish proper names in their original noun forms (" Śląsk," " Mazowsze," " Wielkopolska").
The latter approach is the one I favor. It is my premise that, in principle, proper names should be used in the form in which they are used by their originators, with due consideration to the structural characteristics of the target language.
If " województwo" is rendered as " province," then in English-language histories of the pre- Partition Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Polish term "prowincja" (referring severally to Wielkopolska, Małopolska and Lithuania) could, to avoid any confusion, be rendered by another English word, perhaps " palatinate." (In Polish-language histories, of course, this would continue to be no problem, since the original Polish words, "województwo" and "prowincja," would remain in use as they are now.)
logologist| Talk 09:20, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
And again I happen to differ with my honourable colleague Logologist. We're not here to invent names, but we should also avoid confusion. If we are to translate Polish pre-partition province as palatinate and modern voivodship as province, then we're left with a complete mess. What's more is that there were also proper historical regions that could also be translated as provinces. Yet, Greater Poland and province of Greater Poland were different from each other and from Greater Poland voievodship.
So, in other words we could either follow the Polish way (which is pretty unambiguous as it calls these regions, provinces and voivodships, respectively) or invent some "English" way - for no apparent reason. If we were to apply your changes, the scheme would look like that:
Polish | "Polish way" | Logologist |
---|---|---|
województwo | voivodeship | province |
prowincja | province | palatinate |
region | region | ? |
palatynat | palatinate | ? |
Not the most logical way if you asked me. To add to the confusion, we also have other entities that could be translated as province if we wanted to translate all similar terms as such. Unitedstatesian states are also provinces, not to mention British counties, Russian oblasts and whatnot.
I also oppose the idea (pushed by my respected colleague) that the English names for the Polish historical regions (Greater Poland, Masovia, Lesser Poland and so on) are to be dropped and replaced with their Polish counterparts. I don't really see a reason behind that. Sure, such a solution might seem nice and pleasant-looking to a Pole, but I doubt any Briton looking for more info on the area around Poznań would look for "Wielkopolska", as this most surely means absolutely nothing to him. Greater Poland seems more logical. But of course, I'm not a native speaker and perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps most modern English speakers are perfectly familiar to Polish names of Polish regions. // Halibu tt 00:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
This is the ENGLISH-language Wikipedia. English-speakers have, throughout history, had their own interpretations and pronunciations of countries, cities, towns, provinces etc., (i.e: Rome, instead of Roma, Warsaw instead of Warszawa, Brussels instead of Bruxelles, etc). It is surely laughable to cite a Pole as "expert opinion" on the naming issues when they have the reputation they do as fanatical nationalists whose history books read quite differently to everyone elses. Independent opinions should be sought from English-speakers for the English-language Wikipedia. English predominates in the world today. 213.122.98.213 18:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Currently there are two systems used for local administrative divisions here in the English wiki: the one that translates their names to English and the one that leaves them in their original version.
What do we do with powiats? Should the pages be created under Przasnysz County or Powiat przasnyski? Or perhaps Powiat of Przasnysz? Or perhaps we do not need the powiat pages at all and could simply place a table with powiat info and map at Przasnysz? Halibutt 11:37, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
If anyone is advocating using any diacriticals in the article name, I believe that is strictly prohibited in WikiPedia. They can only be used within the article, AFAIK. 04:23, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I humbly propose that a powiat be a district, and a województwo - a province. In particular, I'm against the use of the mediaeval term "voivodship" to describe the present-day unit of administrative division. See also http://www.serwistlumacza.com/texts/tlumnazw.html MCiura 19:46, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Back to the main topic: I hope some native English speaker could tell us whether the suffix -ship is ever used in English to mean: a territory ruled by a —. Does the -ship in voivodship suggest the domain or rather the office of a voivod?
Besides, province could be a good English equivalent of województwo, but I guess that palatinate would be a better one; palatinatus was the word used for województwo (and palatinus for wojewoda) in pre-partition documents written in Latin. Modern Polish naming of administrative units is clearly based on historical terminology, and this should be also reflected in English translations. Moreover, in pre-partition times, prowincja meant a very large portion of the whole country; basically, there were only three provinces - Greater Poland, Lesser Poland and Lithuania, each consisting of a number of palatinates/województwa.
The same goes for powiat which may be translated as district (though it's very ambiguous) or - from a historical POV - as prefecture.
--
Kpalion 22:29, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've just found out that wojewoda is also called "waywode" in English (see Brainy Dictionary), and hence there also is a "waywodeship". -- Kpalion 15:00, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
User\proposal | Voivodship | powiat | gmina | sołectwo, hutor, etc |
---|---|---|---|---|
[[User:Halibutt| Halibutt]] | Voivodship | powiat | commune | ? |
MCiura | province | district | municipality | ? |
Kpalion | palatinate / voivodship | prefecture / district | commune | hamlet |
Emax | Voivodship | Powiat | Gmina | none |
Proponuje by uzywac roznych kolorow: Wojewodztwa brazowy Podlasie Voivodship, miasta szary przyklad Krakow, osiedla bezowy przyklad Centrum. Dla powiatow i gmin rowniez odmienne.
Na Podlasie Voivodship propozycja tabelki do wojewodztw i szablonik (z herbem) jak np na Lomza. Rowniez szablonik do osiedli (z flaga) jak na centrum. -- Emax 22:47, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
At pl, there's a project to use a bot to generate/update articles about Polish cities, counties and communes: pl:Wikipedia:Automatycznie generowane artykuły. Maybe the same data (when it's compiled) could be used to generate them at en:? Here are two examples of articles which will be used as templates for future bot-generated ones: Gostyn, Stary Gostyn. Any comments? Ausir 22:21, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Voivodship | Example | #CDAA7D |
Powiat (County) | Example | #C1CDC1 |
Gmina (Commune) | Example | #9BCD9B |
-- Emax 20:00, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Currently, we have only one: {{ Poland-geo-stub}}. It is getting very large, with over 800 articles. See Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/Archive13#Poland_geo-stub_split for proposal on splitting this category further. Division by voivodships seems like a good idea - if any voivodship would have 30+ articles (wikiproject minimum limit), we can create a relavant stub. A Poland-struct-stub seems more disputed, but I also think it would be useful. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:46, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Having arrived belatedly to this discussion, but feeling strongly about the subject, I would like to add my voice to those who advocate using familiar English-language terms where feasible: hence, " county" for powiat, and " province" for województwo.
I suspect that this model could be applied satisfactorily to most countries; and that seems preferable to operating with dozens of equivalent terms. logologist 09:30, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
I would like to help making the usage of administrative terms consistent (I have started with Powiat of Chodzież and Powiat of Czarnków-Trzcianka). While looking over the various pre-existing county/powiat articles, the terminology used to describe the administrative district often varies:
The gmina names themselves vary often: Powiat of Białystok has " Gmina of Choroszcz", while Powiat of Gorzów Wielkopolski just has Lubiszyn instead of Gmina of Lubiszyn.
Shouldn't the categories be renamed (ala Category:Land counties of Greater Poland to Category:Powiats of Greater Poland)?
Finally, User:Logologist has suggested that Voivodships should be Provinces, while Halibutt and Balcer support Voivodships. I am neutral on the matter. Olessi 21:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
The word "province" is no longer used in Poland to designate an entity larger than the modern województwo; the old usage is now of purely historical interest. No one in Poland now speaks of the "prowincja" of Małopolska, Wielkopolska or Lithuania. Any potential confusion can be avoided by rendering the old concept of prowincja using its Polish spelling (prowincja).
In what language is Podlasie called Podlachia?
Do you really think that "Świętokrzyskie [adjective] Voivodship" is better in English than "Święty Krzyż" (noun)? English as a rule (offhand, I can't think of an exception) doesn't use adjectives, only nouns, as names. There is, for example, no "New-Yorkan State."
Why use Latinized names (Masuria, Pomerania, Masovia, Silesia) or anglicized names (Lesser Poland) when the Polish names are perfectly good? Do we "translate" most French geographical names into English?
A number of the Latinized names are associated in most non-Poles' minds with those areas' occupation (therefore, "ownership") by the powers that partitioned Poland and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
logologist| Talk 11:44, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Prowincja can be a insulting term in the modern Poland for example "They are from the province" is used to portay people as inferior in social status.
CIA World Factbook I think has a good solution:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/pl.html
16 provinces (wojewodztwa, singular - wojewodztwo); Dolnoslaskie, Kujawsko-Pomorskie, Lodzkie, Lubelskie, Lubuskie, Malopolskie, Mazowieckie, Opolskie, Podkarpackie, Podlaskie, Pomorskie, Slaskie, Swietokrzyskie, Warminsko-Mazurskie, Wielkopolskie, Zachodniopomorskie
After the simplified name we can give exact Polish sounding version. We also should split wojewodztwa from regions-right now it comes to absurdities like some administrative regions in Poland having German names given also because they are combined with entries of historic regions. -- Molobo 20:09, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
The English adjective "provincial" has the same deprecatory potential as the Polish expression, "z prowincji."
Nevertheless, as the Wikipedia article on " Province" demonstrates, "province" is the usual English translation for the secondary level of government in most countries. (A few countries do use alternative terms — "state," "prefecture," "län," "region," "Land," "muhfazah.")
The 18th-century Polish "prowincyja," or its plural "prowincyje," referring to Wielkopolska, Małopolska or Lithuania, appears in the basic text of the Polish Constitution of May 3, 1791 (available on Wikisource) a grand total of 8 times — 7 of them in the closing "Signers" section.
It would seem a shame, in this case, to break ranks with nearly all the rest of the world and abandon a universally recognizable term, "province," from a misguided loyalty to a usage that has long been obsolete in Poland and that was seldom really indispensable even before the Partitions of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
I am for using voivodship and county. Perhaps we should have a vote? Also, those of you who have not read through Talk:Voivodships of Poland should do so - there are quite a few interesting arguments and statistics there.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:47, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I propose we begin with the perhaps somewhat less contentious " powiat"–" county" controversy, and leave " voivodship"–" province" for a second round. This will give people a chance to review the arguments in the second question, and perhaps debate it more definitively. logologist| Talk 03:52, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
No doubt by "Mazovia" you mean "Masovia." Either way, I hate to break it to you, outside Poland and perhaps some parts of Europe, not too many people have heard of Mazovia, Masovia or Mazowsze. So I doubt that it makes much difference to 99% of humanity. Accordingly, using authentic Polish names for Polish places seems the appropriate thing, and — who knows — may spare foreign visitors some confusion. logologist| Talk 09:42, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
After reading the discussion here and at Talk:Voivodships of Poland, I support using the more specialized "Voivodship" instead of "Province". As a native English speaker, I personally prefer using English/Latin names like "Masovia" or "Masovian" instead of "Mazowsze" or "Mazowieckie". I have been trying to learn Polish pronunciation and the names are still difficult for me to read- it would be very difficult for someone with no background in Polish at all (the majority of Wiki-users) to try to read the words. I don't have an easy solution for "Województwo świętokrzyskie", however. I agree with Molobo that Lower Silesia and the current Dolny Śląsk Voivodship need to be differentiated the way that Masovia and Mazowsze Voivodship are (any others?). BTW, Podlachia is the Latin name for Podlasie (Podlasia is also used occasionally). I think this discussion could use more input by native English users, IMO. Olessi 07:04, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Ok, let's vote on Powiat vs. County and Gmina vs. Commune for start. BTW If you think that this proposal should be expanded, please, feel free to do so.-- SylwiaS | talk 01:56, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
By the way, we're going to generate articles about all powiats and gminas with a bot, like we dit at pl:, but we'll wait until this vote and the voivodship one are concluded. Ausir 09:24, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Since voting began above, "Puławy District" and "Choroszcz Municipality" have been added. What are the Polish originals of these terms, and what do they refer to? Definitions would be helpful, if we are to vote on them too. logologist| Talk 15:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
How to translate things like gmina miejska, miasto na prawach powiatu etc. I don't feel it's right to translate them county/commune, even though i support calling normal powiats/gminas "county/commune". Taw 20:32, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I think we can close the vote in favour of "Puławy County" and "Choroszcz Commune", and start renaming the articles. I find Balcer's point valid, so the terms "powiat" and "gmina" should be mentioned. Maybe simply it should take this form in the lead of the articles:
Puławy County ( pl: powiat puławski)... -- SylwiaS | talk 17:09, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Here's an external link with analysis of this situation, citing two biggest and most popular Polish-English/English-Polish dictionaries and other sources: http://accurapid.com/journal/29poldic.htm
Here's a summary (not all of the terms were given in the article, I also added some from the discussion above):
Polish | Oxford- PWN | Kosciuszko Foundation | TEPIS | poland.gov.pl | Ministry of Interior website | Other |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
powiat | powiat/county | district | poviat | powiat | district/powiat | |
gmina | district | commune | gmina | gmina | gmina | municipality |
województwo | province | province | voivodeship | voivodeship | voivodship/province | |
wójt | borough leader | voit | voigt | |||
starosta | starosta | staroste | district governor | county foreman | ||
wojewoda | provincial governor | governor | voivode | voivod/voivodship governor |
Based on this, I'd say county and leaving powiat in the Polish are probably just as legitimate. Using district is a pretty bad idea, as it is used as a translation of powiat by KF and as a translation of gmina by Oxford-PWN, not to mention rejon and dystrykt. County is the most popular choice among Polish translators. On the other hand, looks like "poviat" is recommended by Polish Society of Economic, Legal and Court Translators (TEPIS) [1].
As for gmina, if we are not to use the ambiguous district recommended by Oxford-PWN, I'd say commune is the best choice, as it is the recommended option for European countries in KF. Commune seems to be the most popular choice among Polish translators, although "gmina" is recommended by TEPIS.
As for województwo, it's even tougher - two major dictionaries support "province", while the voivodships themselves use different terms on the official websites:
Województwo | Official website | poland.gov.pl | TEPIS |
---|---|---|---|
dolnośląskie | Lower Silesia Voivodeship | The Voivodeship of Lower Silesia | Dolnośląskie Voivodeship |
kujawsko-pomorskie | Kujawsko-Pomorskie Voivodeship | The Voivodeship of Cuiavia and Pomerania | Kujawsko-Pomorskie Voivodeship |
lubelskie | no English website | The Voivodeship of Lublin | Lubelskie Voivodeship |
lubuskie | Lubuskie Province | The Voivodeship of Lubusz | Lubuskie Voivodeship |
łódzkie | Lodz Voivodship | The Voivodeship of Łódź | Łódzkie Voivodeship |
małopolskie | Małopolska Region | The Voivodeship of Lesser Poland | Małopolskie Voivodeship |
mazowieckie | Mazowieckie Voivodeship | The Voivodeship of Mazovia | Mazowieckie Voivodeship |
opolskie | Opolskie Voivodeship | The Voivodeship of Opole | Opolskie Voivodeship |
podkarpackie | no English website | The Voivodeship of Sub-Carpathia | Podkarpackie Voivodeship |
podlaskie | no English website | The Voivodeship of Podlassia | Podlaskie Voivodeship |
pomorskie | Pomorskie Voivodeship | The Voivodeship of Pomerania | Pomorskie Voivodeship |
śląskie | Śląsk Voivodeship | The Voivodeship of Silesia | Śląskie Voivodeship |
świętokrzyskie | Świętokrzyskie Voivodship | The Voivodeship of Kielce | Świętokrzyskie Voivodeship |
warmińsko-mazurskie | no English website | The Voivodeship of Varmia and Masuria | Warmińsko-Mazurskie Voivodeship |
wielkopolskie | Wielkopolska Region | The Voivodeship of Greater Poland | Wielkopolskie Voivodeship |
zachodniopomorskie | Zachodniopomorskie Voivodeship | The Voivodeship of Western Pomerania | Zachodniopomorskie Voivodeship |
As you can see, half of the official websites use "voivodeship", the term recommended by TEPIS. Only 2 use "voivodship", the term currently used in Wikipedia. Ausir 13:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I think we should first give people some time to present their proposals and only then start the vote. Ausir 17:25, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Some other terms where we need to choose a translation to be used in Wikipedia.
==== county==== (Any county that is not a " city -county" — see below.)
Used by the government.
==== city -county==== (e.g., Warsaw City-County — as in " City and County of San Francisco" and " City and County of Denver").
Any other proposals?
Here, I believe votes for "wójt", "voit" and "vogt" should be counted together when counted against "commune chief". Same with "starosta", "staroste" and "starost" against "county chief" as it can be assumed that people who vote for one of them would prefer any of the other variants of the same word than a completely different one. Ausir 17:51, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
#
logologist|
Talk
06:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
#
logologist|
Talk
06:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I just created a new template, Subdivision term Polish (based on a similar one for Spanish-speaking countries) and put it in some articles to see what it looks like. Please take a look and say how you like it. Of course, it may be updated according to the agreements reached on this talk page. Kpalion 14:06, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Who invented that name? I never saw it in use anywhere and it seems like a joke. Reminds me of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest... Halibu tt 21:28, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
" Staroste" looks like something written by an English-speaker who can't spell in any language. It reflects badly on both the English-speakers and the Poles. If the Polish word " starosta" is retained, then by all means at least spell it correctly! logologist| Talk 16:32, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
The commonest English name for a national second-level administrative unit, corresponding among others to the Polish " województwo," is " province."
The Polish version of this word ("prowincja") was used somewhat differently in the pre- Partition Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, as a term designating each of the Commonwealth's three major constituent parts: Wielkopolska ("Greater Poland"), Małopolska ("Lesser Poland"), and Lithuania. Since Poland's resumption of independence at the end of World War I, however, "prowincja" has not been applied to any Polish political entity. Hence the English word " province" may be used, with no risk of confusion, for Poland's post-World War I województwa (the plural of "województwo").
Discussions of the pre-Partition Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth will apply the word "province" to Wielkopolska, Małopolska and Lithuania, and will use the Polish word "województwo" (preferably, in English-language texts, not the "Polish"-English hybrid word, "voivodship") to designate what today may in English be termed a "province."
During the Partitions period, "province" referred to certain "provinces" governed by the partitioning powers.
There is, in any case, no compelling reason to avoid using the English word " province" to designate Poland's present-day województwa.
A województwo (" province") is governed by a wojewoda, which may be rendered in English as " governor."
On this document (PDF
[2]) published by Commission for Standardisation of Geographical Names Outside Poland (official standardization body) there are official translation of names of Polish administrative units.
Województwo = Voivodship (or province)
powiat = county (land counties and urban counties)
gmina = commune (rural communes, urban-rular communes, urban communes)
See at official map of Poland
[3]
Aotearoa from Poland
21:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Whatever the outcome of the above votes, if we use Polish terms, let's use Polish grammatical rules for making plurals instead of creating some terrible hybrids (so powiaty, not powiats, gminy, not gminas). Kpalion 13:15, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Hello. I'm a member of the Version 1.0 Editorial Team, which is looking to identify quality articles in Wikipedia for future publication on CD or paper. We recently began assessing articles using these criteria, and we are are asking for your help. As you are most aware of the issues surrounding your focus area, we are wondering if you could provide us with a list of the articles that fall within the scope of your WikiProject, and that are either featured, A-class, B-class, or Good articles, with no POV or copyright problems. Do you have any recommendations? If you do, please post your suggestions at the listing of all active Places WikiProjects, and if you have any questions, ask me in the Work Via WikiProjects talk page or directly in my talk page. Thanks a lot! Tito xd( ?!? - help us) 18:37, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I have received a commentary on the issues we are discussing here from Dr. Danuta Kierzkowska, President of Polish Society of Economic, Legal and Court Translators TEPIS (Polskie Towarzystwo Tłumaczy Przysięgłych i Specjalistycznych TEPIS [4]), as well as her perimission to post relevant parts of her email here. I will post the original Polish text here, and I'll translate it when I have more time (feel free to do so before me :>). I'd also like to thank Dr. Kierzkowska for her much needed expert contribution to our debate.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 01:49, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Temat dyskutowany w Wikipedii jest kontrowersyjny od wieków i nawet powołanie na poziomie międzyanarodowym lub narodowym, rządowym lub naukowym (PAN), specjalnej komisji, która podjęłaby decyzję na ten temat, nie rozwiązałoby problemu, bo ludzie i tak pozostaliby przy swoich poglądach, a decyzja mogłaby mieć przecież formę zaleceń, a nie przepisów prawa. Cała sprawa jest o tyle mało ekscytująca dla tłumaczy, o ile zawsze było im wiadomo, że racje są jednakowo po obu stronach. Żadna decyzja nie zmieni faktu, że zapożyczenie jest jedną ze znanych i uznanych od wieków technik tłumaczeniowych, które jednak nie wyklucza i nigdy nie wykluczało stosowania w tłumaczeniu wersji przyjętych w języku docelowym. Jedna i druga technika ma swoje racje bytu, więc żadne tutaj rozstrzygnięcie nie będzie ostateczne. Oczywiście dylemat ma specyficzny aspekt ambicjonalny natury międzynarodowej, ponieważ każe wybierać między "właścicielem" pojęcia w języku źródłowym a "właścicielem" języka docelowego, z których każdy chce być ważniejszy. Jako więc "właściciele" języka polskiego, naśladując brytyjski imperalizm językowy, powinniśmy mówić o województwach i powiatach w Anglii, zaś uznając post-jałtańskich "właścicieli" byłych miast polskich (i bojąc się posądzenia o rewizjonizm), powinniśmy mówić o Lvivie i Vilniusie ... I tak dalej. Skądinąd trend rządów (nie tylko) europejskich, aby "być sobą" i pozostawiać w oryginalnym brzmieniu Reichstag, Kneset, Dumę i Sejm wymownie wskazuje na tendencję w pewnym zakresie, i chociaż nie musi się to wszystkim podobać, to na ogół taką wolę się szanuje. Natomiast co do propozycji głosowania to powiem tylko tyle, że na co dzień posługuję się zasadą: "Składu substancji chemicznej nie ustala się w drodze plebiscytu". A tam, gdzie nie do końca o czystą wiedzę chodzi, tylko o kolor lub styl - to trzeba po prostu coś wybrać i na coś się zdecydować. Właściciel portalu (Wikipedia), jeżeli chce mieć u siebie porządek (a musi?), powinien przyjąć jedną z dwóch opcji i jej przestrzegać. Ponieważ wie, że zawsze w ten sposób narazi się którejś ze stron, to woli - być może całkiem świadomie - nie podejmować żadnej decyzji i pozostawić świat bez retuszu - pełen międzynarodowych dysonansów, które dają jednak prawdziwy obraz rzeczywistości. Albo ukuć jakąś formułę salomonową, która zadowoliłaby obie strony. Ale to jest ich problem. |
---|
Dr. Kierzkowska's above remarks on translation highlight a valid point: There are many ways to skin a cat. The approach a translator takes may vary, depending on his understanding of the process and purpose.
There is an entire spectrum of approaches to translation. At one extreme, paradoxically, is non-translation. The Christian and Muslim worlds long disapproved of translating, respectively, the Latin Vulgate Bible and the Qur'an. William Tyndale, who had ventured to translate the Bible into English, was in 1536 strangled and burned at the stake. Muslims the world over, Arabic- and non-Arabic-speaking, to this day recite the sacred words of the Qur'an in the original Arabic.
At the opposite end of the spectrum is 100% translation, right down to proper names of persons and geographic entities.
As a practical matter, translators generally use target-language expressions where adequate equivalents exist, while — when necessary — importing source-language expressions into the target language, thereby creating target-language neologisms that are either loanwords or calques.
In the matter of translating Polish geographic terms into English, there are several schools of thought. One is to retain, wholly or partly unchanged, source-language generic expressions (" powiat," " voivodship") while "translating" proper names (as " Silesia," " Mazovia," " Greater Poland," etc.). The converse approach is to render Polish generic terms by English equivalents (" county," " province") while retaining Polish proper names in their original noun forms (" Śląsk," " Mazowsze," " Wielkopolska").
The latter approach is the one I favor. It is my premise that, in principle, proper names should be used in the form in which they are used by their originators, with due consideration to the structural characteristics of the target language.
If " województwo" is rendered as " province," then in English-language histories of the pre- Partition Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Polish term "prowincja" (referring severally to Wielkopolska, Małopolska and Lithuania) could, to avoid any confusion, be rendered by another English word, perhaps " palatinate." (In Polish-language histories, of course, this would continue to be no problem, since the original Polish words, "województwo" and "prowincja," would remain in use as they are now.)
logologist| Talk 09:20, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
And again I happen to differ with my honourable colleague Logologist. We're not here to invent names, but we should also avoid confusion. If we are to translate Polish pre-partition province as palatinate and modern voivodship as province, then we're left with a complete mess. What's more is that there were also proper historical regions that could also be translated as provinces. Yet, Greater Poland and province of Greater Poland were different from each other and from Greater Poland voievodship.
So, in other words we could either follow the Polish way (which is pretty unambiguous as it calls these regions, provinces and voivodships, respectively) or invent some "English" way - for no apparent reason. If we were to apply your changes, the scheme would look like that:
Polish | "Polish way" | Logologist |
---|---|---|
województwo | voivodeship | province |
prowincja | province | palatinate |
region | region | ? |
palatynat | palatinate | ? |
Not the most logical way if you asked me. To add to the confusion, we also have other entities that could be translated as province if we wanted to translate all similar terms as such. Unitedstatesian states are also provinces, not to mention British counties, Russian oblasts and whatnot.
I also oppose the idea (pushed by my respected colleague) that the English names for the Polish historical regions (Greater Poland, Masovia, Lesser Poland and so on) are to be dropped and replaced with their Polish counterparts. I don't really see a reason behind that. Sure, such a solution might seem nice and pleasant-looking to a Pole, but I doubt any Briton looking for more info on the area around Poznań would look for "Wielkopolska", as this most surely means absolutely nothing to him. Greater Poland seems more logical. But of course, I'm not a native speaker and perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps most modern English speakers are perfectly familiar to Polish names of Polish regions. // Halibu tt 00:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
This is the ENGLISH-language Wikipedia. English-speakers have, throughout history, had their own interpretations and pronunciations of countries, cities, towns, provinces etc., (i.e: Rome, instead of Roma, Warsaw instead of Warszawa, Brussels instead of Bruxelles, etc). It is surely laughable to cite a Pole as "expert opinion" on the naming issues when they have the reputation they do as fanatical nationalists whose history books read quite differently to everyone elses. Independent opinions should be sought from English-speakers for the English-language Wikipedia. English predominates in the world today. 213.122.98.213 18:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)