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Archives from January 2007 - February 2007
For département, the case seems pretty clear. The word is used in English to mean exactly the same thing as the French word:
For region, it's a bit more complicated, in that many of the dictionaries don't show something similar to the French regions as a possible definition. But OED has the following as definition 5b:
One might also note, please, Regions of England, which uses "region" in precisely the sense of the French région, for the highest order administrative subdivisions of the country. Anyway, the basic point is, that "department" and "region" are most certainly used for these French divisions, and are clearly proper meanings of the English words. It is true that sometimes the French is used instead, but this seems like unwarranted Francocentrism (or possibly anglocentrism, since French is the language that English speakers, especially in the UK, have traditionally been most likely to know). As someone who doesn't speak Italian or Spanish, Having the article Regioni of Italy, or whatever, seems completely absurd to me. département and so forth don't sound nearly as silly to me, but that's just because I speak French. There are perfectly good English words available, and in context, there shouldn't ever be any serious ambiguity (and eliminating ambiguity in situations where there is no context seems like a fool's errand). john k 17:07, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually, no. It may also mean a department within a larger organisation such as the CNRS. They don't translate many of their departmental names into English, and since are not often used, remain in their French forms in many publications in English. Such départements include Département des Sciences Chimiques or Le département des sciences du vivant, if we are to use their proper names. However, if an article were to be written about them here on the English wiki, you can bet your bottom dollar that they would be translated to the English form, which would be correct. You see, département can mean a multitude of things, just as the department does. -- Bob 18:03, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
This is totally absurd. We have an English word that means exactly what we want it to mean. In the case of "region" we can come up with English usages that are precisely identical to the formal French term. See again Regions of England. In the case of department, I'm not aware of any anglophone countries divided into departments, but the word has been used in this sense for two centuries now. If you want to make an argument that it is, for some reason, preferable to use the French terms, please do so, and I might even be somewhat sympathetic, but don't give us this bullshit that the translation is wrong or inappropriate. john k 18:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
So you feel the French terms are more appropriate because to you they convey a more precise definition... However, the French term for department is also used in a number of different countries, each with its own specific and precise usage for things other than administratuve regions. Same with région. The English terms are not vague, but precise and have been used as such for over 2 centuries in English. Just because a definition of a word is unknown by some, doesn't invalidate the definition. For instance, should we cater the Wimbledon article to those that don't know the meaning of set in a tennis context? Should we remove the e from Senate ? Should we replace the usage of the word région in all countries that use this as an administrative region with something else? No. we shouldn't. We should use the most appropriate word in English when there is one available. Would I advocate the replacement of Laïcité with secularism or similar? No. Because there is not an appropriate translation in English. This isn't willy nilly anglicisation, it is common sense. -- Bob 19:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I would both argue that the English translations are too vague and abstruse This is a POV statement, unless you can back it up with a reference that states that the English terms are vague, it is original research and any argument put forth using it as a basis discredited. -- Bob 19:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Provide a reference stating that the two department and region are easily confused in English texts talking about French stuff. Again,
WP:POV,
WP:NOR and
WP:V come into play. If you are unable to do so, just state that.
Just because it has been done like this for so long doesn't mean that it need continue like that. How often has the Main Page been changed in the life of wikipedia? -- Bob 20:50, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
No wikilawyering here... just assertation of the basic premise of no original research. Again, provide a reference for what you state. If you can't, just state that you can't. We won't abhor you for it. The reason I am so persistant in this is that you base your entire opposition on an assumption that is your (and Aquarelle's) POV, yet you are seemingly unable to confirm this POV using a secondary souce. Please provide one. Why do people want to use English terms? So that all articles follow a similar path. I am not one for compartmentalising wikipedia into factions, but would like to see uniformity across the whole. If French articles keep the French terms, then every single article on administrative divisions in every country across the entire wikipedia that uses English terms needs to be formatted differently. -- Bob 22:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
This argument could be widened to the rest of wikipedia. If the French articles keep the French names for everything, then why do articles on other country subdivisions get translated into the appropriate English terms when applicable? What is it about the French that they can keep their terms in English, yet vice versa they get translated? Why are the regions of Italy and Belgium translated to English and the departments of Argentina, Columbia and Poland translated? There doesn't seem to be much confusion outside of the French articles? Why is this do you imagine? If you have a reason, provide a reference. -- Bob 22:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Please provide references for the following:
Thank you. -- Bob 22:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Come on. Fulfil this list of questions, otherwise you are wrong." All the same:
Now, how about listing some of the merits of Anglicisation? THEPROMENADER 22:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
We should use English when appropriate. It is appropriate here and has been discussed ad nauseum at WP:UE and WP:MOS as well as other country wikiprojects such as Mexico. My interpretation, and that of others, is that the English convention is not restricted to the title, especially when a more than appropriate translation exists. Now, I want secondary sources, not just your opinion. Please provide links to articles pertaining to yours (and others) statements which you have used to promote your opinion. Again, I am not requesting your opinion. I am requesting facts from secondary sources that confirm your opinion and statements. Please provide them. -- Bob 23:23, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Commune is an English word so that article no longer conforms to wiki guidelines. A reference would be citing me something from an academic journal, a respected translation expert, a reliable source. If you are still confused as to what a source/reference is, please see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Types_of_source_material. We have cited numerous sources/references such as the French government, OED, NOED, INSEE, British government etc. Please show me something from an external source that validates your statements. An external source is not an article on wikipedia, as that is the subject of the discussion. Again, if you are unable to do so, just state that you are unable to confirm and validate your statements. Thank you. -- Bob 02:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I am aware that WP:UE (and formerly WP:ANG) refers to the article titles, which is why about 350 articles/templates/categories were recently moved to respect this convention, something which the original authors didn't follow, but is now respected. Still more need to be moved to conform to WP:V as the current setup is inaccurate. In WP:MOS, it states per the guide to writing better Wikipedia articles, use foreign words sparingly. Perestroika has now been integrated into the English language, and if we are to follow current guidelines as stated in WP:BETTER, it should not be italicised. Finally, this is important as wikipedia is not a compartmentalised work, there must be uniformity amongst articles. If a it:Regioni d'Italia is translated as Regions of Italy, and subsequent articles follow that nomenclature, and landsvæði is translated as regions and fylker as counties etc etc etc for words not commonly found in English dictionaries, then why leave the French forms when the translation is found in dictionaries and is in common use in all forms of written English? If we are to use the French forms throughout wikipedia, then the same courtesy must be extended to every article using English translations in the place of local administrative subdivision foreign words not found in most dictionaries. I would love to read an article describing Icelandic landsvæði. -- Bob 02:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
A couple of points. With respect to "regions" what is the operative difference between a Region of England and a French region, that requires us to use the French word région for the latter? Wikipedia is already, by necessity, using the word "region" to mean something almost exactly identical to the way région is used in French for administrative subdivisions. With respect to departments, any geographical use of the term "department" is for something similar to the French case - for an administrative subdivision. Although the word "department" has other meanings in English (just like the French département), it ought to just about always be clear from context if a geographical context is meant. Even so, to pretend that the history department (or whatever) of a French university can be translated as "department," but that the name for the department of the Gironde cannot be is absurd. In both cases the French word being used is département - it is completely arbitrary to insist that one is appropriate to translate, and that the other isn't. This whole thing appears to arise out of a desire to create a distinction between the French meanings of département and région and the English meanings of department and region, that doesn't really exist. And the whole thing is based on special pleading for the French language - and not just for the French language, but for the French language as used in France to refer to things in France. If région and département convey more specific things than "region" and "department," it is entirely artificial - it does not arise in the slightest out of their usage in French, but only out of the fact that in these particular administrative contexts writers in English are somewhat more likely to leave the words untranslated. So what it comes down to ought to be the extent to which these terms are actually left untranslated in English. From my experience, I would say that it is reasonably common, especially in academic works, but certainly not predominant, but I'd be interested to see evidence. The only argument I can see as halfway plausible is one that the terms are usually left untranslated in English. I don't believe this is true, but this is the only potentially valid case to be made on the other side. The arguments that the translation is inappropriate remain bullshit, and any argument made on that basis strikes me as absurd. The only thing insisting on the French terms does is confuse people about the meaning of the French term, and imply much more restricted meanings for the French words than they actually have. In English, département may only be used to refer to French administrative subdivisions. But this is most certainly not true for use of the word in French. The issue ought not be one of translation at all - the translation is clearly good. The issue ought to be, pure and simple, one of common usage. john k 08:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I know Eric... and watercolour, the burden of proof argument is invalid. You are proposing arguments for a POV in a discussion on naming conventions. You are claiming these things exist. You, Steveage, promenader and Inshu should back up your arguments with valid sources. If you are unable to show proof for your arguments, then they ARE original research. You are claimimg things to be fact, we have shown our hand with references and fact, please do the courtesy of returning that gesture. If you don't, then your arguments really do become untenable. Show sources. -- Bob 15:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I've become unclear on what exactly we are arguing about. If the argument being made is that it's fine to use either the French or the English term, I can't bring myself to object all that much. Personally, I think "administrative region" is generally clearer than région, when additional context is needed, and that "department" is pretty much never going to be unclear when used in a geographical context, but I'm not going to object if people want to have some variety and to sometimes use the French. I had thought, though, that much stronger claims were being made - essentially, that the English terms are never appropriate, or almost never appropriate. This I strongly object to, and think is pretty clearly wrong. Anyway, whatever. I no longer am clear on what anybody is actually proposing. I think I'm going to sit this out for a while. john k 16:33, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Please provide sources for the following:
These have been put forward as FACT. I would like references to back up these FACTS. If reliable references are shown to me and prove this position then I will back down regarding the usage of the French terms within the text. However, if y'all are unable to do this, then again, I say that this position is untenable. I would like to put this to a vote with real, referenced facts in the preamble to any vote so that those voting are aware of exactly what means what and why, and do not vote on any unsubstantiated POV based on someone else obfuscating the real definitions are terminology. The refusal to provide sources just leads me to suspect that there are no sources to back up your facts. -- Bob 17:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Again, you have put forward an argument of fact. I would like to see references to all those points. If there are compelling sourced arguments from reliable sources, then I will drop this. These facts have been accepted as read by those less informed. I would like to see sources for these facts. Provide them please. -- Bob 18:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
If you are unable to provide sources that back up your claims, just state that. -- Bob 18:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I will attempt to provide a reference for Eric. You see, he put forward an opinion and we try to back them up with sources. [1]. However, maybe Eric has access to better sources. Maybe you could do this for the statements listed below.-- Bob 20:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
No less valid...
Just a few that debate the usefulness of foreign terms when the English is more than sufficient. -- Bob 20:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Well, no Eric - as far as I can see, your point of view is based on your... own point of view. I can't know of your logic and experience, but I hope it wasn't that reflected in your selective and often non-sequitur arguments. Using the italicised form works, as does the English version if it has either the correct context or added explanation, but nowhere have you or anyone managed to say why the italicised form is wrong - you have simply declared that it is. As you have declared that you have made arguments where in fact you have made none. Wiki contributors in their majority (it seems thus far) have chosen the italicised native-language technique for some words, and authours of other publications have chosen other methods: citing examples of the latter, or examples of English-usage that do have context, will never prove the italicised version "wrong". This "wrongness" is your point of view on the matter - nothing more. THEPROMENADER 21:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd tried to remain fixed on the question of "what is the point of using the italicised native-language term, and why do so many do it" in trying to argue on the basis of simple common sense, and did not really look to see to what real exent the French italicised term is used in English wikipedia. I had a look just now, and was amazed to the extent that it is in use: 8,299 results for "département", and 3,847 results for région alone - and this is articles containing the term (many in the title - lord knows how many occurences when one considers the content of the same articles. Thus, fellows, it seems that the italicised form is indeed a major part of the Wiki landscape.
Then I find this. I have to say it is everthing I feared in my arguments above - an out-of-context translation of every French word in the " Regions of France" article, without any attention at all to the writing style or sentence meaning. Sorry Bob, but this is at once overzealous and lazy. You even translated "managed by a regional assembly (conseil régional)" to "managed by a regional assembly (General council)" - for lord's sake! This is just dumb!
In looking at the above article's talk page I see a short but inconclusive discussion to change article titles, but nothing substantial (or even less, conclusive) about content. Then Bob's lone one-line "Requested move, I translated the article" message, and this five days after discussion had ended - there was no discussion to that end, and certainly no conclusion to the same, and certainly not for anything widespread! This is really just unprecedented. How far has this gone already? How many articles have been "translated" in the same sloppy "French-word witch-hunt" way?! Really, I just don't know what to say. THEPROMENADER 17:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
There is no witchhunt as you would put it, merely trying to use words that already exist and being more precise while at it. Please also note that I have been rewording towns/villages for commune (I italicise here even though it is an English word), also district for arrondissement (same deal). I made one mistake, big deal. I have corrected far more language and grammatical errors than I have made... Nobody is perfect. -- Bob 17:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I had to look. Bob, you even eliminated inter-wiki links to very relevent French-topic articles. How many other edits like this and those above did you do? Will you look at this - and possibly a thousand pages before it. The first is possibly this one, and nowhere do i see any sign of any discussion about this anywhere. Ever. THEPROMENADER 20:11, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
So as to avoid mirrors of wikipedia, lets look at a few searches (and these were random):
-- Bob 18:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
If you want to provide a relevent search, do one within Wiki. Every publication has its own practices, and Wiki already has its own it seems. "What others do" is not an argument, but "why others do it" is. THEPROMENADER 18:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
ok.
This isn't slight preference for the English form, this is overwhelming usage of the English form. Those departments didn't bloat the figures to a 10 fold increase... -- Bob 19:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
The English form has twice the number again. Your point? [17] [18] -- Bob 19:32, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
If one were to look at the word department by itself, the numbers would invariably come back with a higher usage due to its other definitions. Therefore, by including the terms France or French one reduces the liklihood of false results. To answer your question, many French terms are incorrectly italicised. Why? No idea, but probably because no-one took the time to look at WP:BETTER. Did a majority do this? I have no idea, as there were numerous pages that I didn't change as they were already using English terms. However, there is a lot of housekeeping to do before some form of consistency may be applied to French articles in en.wikipedia. -- Bob 20:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
The idea of using a wikipedia search as the basis for what wikipedia usage should be is completely insane and circular, since any of us can change what wikipedia usage is. Sigh. That people on both sides appear to have at different points claimed that this is a useful measure is deeply disheartening. john k 22:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
As per Wikipedia:Resolving disputes, I think perhaps it is time to open up the discussion to a larger audience (perhaps via a RfC) and for all parties to take a pause:
Wikipedia works by building consensus. To develop a consensus on a disputed topic, you may need to expose the issue to a larger audience. Options for doing this include:
- Wikipedia:Requests for comment, the main avenue for general disputes
- Wikipedia:Third opinion, for disputes involving only two editors
- Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts, for problems with uncivil editors
- Asking at subject-specific Wikipedia:WikiProjects or policy pages relevant to the issue.
If you have not agreed to a truce before this point, you should do so now. This allows others to consider the issue fairly without the confusion of ongoing edits, which are likely to aggravate the dispute. If an edit war persists and parties refuse to stop, you may request that the page be protected to allow the process to move forward.
-- NYArtsnWords 19:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
This is a dispute about whether the English or French terms department/département and region/région should be used (a) in article titles, and/or (b) in article leads and/or (c) in the text of articles dealing with France and its administrative divisions. Please read the above discussion. Those in favor of the English terms cite the guidelines of WP:UE, WP:BETTER, WP:NCGN and WP:NAME and assert that the use of the English terms is appropriate, frequent, and not subject to unnecessary confusion. Those in favor of keeping the French terms in some or all of the above cases assert that the French terms define specific French administrative divisions, that their use on the English wikipedia has been longstanding, and that the use of English terms will create confusion for many readers unacquainted with their specific French usage. -- NYArtsnWords 20:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry, but all of what you state is cherrypicked and it also seems to me that you appear to want to browbeat people into accepting your POV. It is true that one should not assume readership, but I would assume that that would mean use English, as English is what anglophones tend to understand. You want people to write to the lowest common denominator, but that would entail using words that are unnecessary. My previous example of set is perfect in this context. What does it mean? The set of the tide? The three sets required to win a match of tennis at Wimbledon? The set in a theatre? The set of a stone in a bracelet? English words have many definitions, and in this case, exact translations as aluded to more than adequately above. To state anything different would be both incorrect and POV unless a source can be provided that backs up this claim. A source being an academic in the transaltion field, an academic journal, an expert in the field of English-French translations or similar. It is not unreasonable to assume that department and region may mean different things outside of the most common definitions, especially as both England and Scotland have/or had administrative regions. To assume that the average reader is too stupid to understand this is baffling indeed. Using French where English is more than adequate is more likely to obfuscate people than enlighten them, as alluded to above in the references regarding using French terms where English is more than adequate. Thank you. -- Bob 18:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Again, you fail to comprehend a quite simple argument. 'tis quite baffling. However, as your POV is more than adequately found on this page, why not leave some space for others to comment? Our reasons are clearly stated above, yet you fail to read and/or understand them. The RfC is here to clarify the position of those involved and seek broader comment from others. Obfsucating the opinion of some users here does not help in this procedure. -- Bob 01:26, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
...Quite simple argument? Non-existent, You mean! I would think that filling the "statement" section with biased argument-sounding "examples" would affect external opinion more than a common-sense answer to the same in the "comments" section would. If you don't like the "French method", just say so, and find others that share your opinion - but please, don't go to such an effort to leave texts that insinuate - not prove - that the system is broken and needs fixing, when it is nothing of the kind; it is this sort of argument that obliges me to answer in kind. And if a "comment" section can't be used for comments, what the hell is it for? This thread is about your hasty no-consensus translations, not about my method of argument. No more "lawyerly" distractions from the real question, please. THEPROMENADER 13:42, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree (again) with User:ThePromenader and strongly object to this recent trend of Anglicisation. The French terms are more specific than the English terms and the words are similar enough that non-French-speaking readers aren't gonna get confused. The English Wikipedia has used the French-language terms since I came onboard ages ago and, frankly, using the English-language terms seems like we're oversimplifying and dumbing-down. If it's good enough for the Encyclopædia Britannica, it's good enough for Wikipedia. — OwenBlacker 20:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
This is beginning to sound like reason. Indeed, there is no "real" reason why articles should use one method or another to describe their subject - all that counts is that the identity of the subject is clear. If it is clear that we are indeed talking about administrative areas, there is no reason not to use English "department" or "region", but if we are but indicating an area as a locale of a certain event or in an attribution, the meaning of the same words, because of their similarity, may be ambiguous in meaning, so there is no reason not to use the perfectly Anglo-comprehensible French word form to indicate the word's true meaning and purpose. What I'm actually doing here is describing the existing system.
My only reservation is about article titles. Is it really necessary to add "department" to the proper name of a department - when that proper name is nothing other than a department? I can understand in cases of disambiguation ( Île-de-France for example: it is both a historical province and a région), but perhaps this is not neccessary - unless it is an official name. Some may argue so. THEPROMENADER 17:41, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not looking forward to writing about department stores that sell AOC Corbières in the Corbières region in the région Languedoc-Roussillon in the Départment de l'Aude.
This won't necessarily happen all the time, but articles can sometimes be clarified by using the word "region" to mean "general area" in a paragraph where an editor has already written something about the "région" of France that the "region" is in. I've been trying to expand some wine articles and a lot of them get confusing and muddled if I'm not really careful with the language. There are régions, départements, regions (colloquial), AOCs, communes and towns that often share space and/or share names. Especially in the AOCs.
There is a vineyard in the AOC Cabardes where the grapes are technically in three different communes, none of which are Ventenac-Cabardès. There are also grapes in Ventenac-Cabardès that aren't Cabardes. What is a boy to do other than to use the word region or the phrase "surrounding area" a heck of a lot? The latter gets clunky, but I wouldn't want somebody to revert région to region in a paragraph where I've already used the word region colloquially. mroconnell 16:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Battle of the Somme has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 00:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The contents table on the article on Napoleon III has a subsection (3.4) called "Foreign Policy", under the Foreign Policy section there are, I guess one could say, sub-subsections. The 'sub-subsections' included are "The Crimean War"(3.4.1), "East Asia"(3.4.3) and "Italy"(3.4.4). Then the following nations are listed as subsections instead of 'sub-subsections': "United States of America"(3.5), "Mexico"(3.6) and "Prussia"(3.7). I tried to align them appropriately but I don't know how to edit the contents table. You can find what I am talking about in the contents table at Napoleon III. Faustus Tacitus 02:43, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
There is a discussion on the talk page regarding moving the name of this article to one that is more consistent with other grape related articles. Since there is a regional preference between Syrah & Shiraz, any additional input would be appreciated. Please voice your comments on the Talk:Shiraz grape page. Agne 22:43, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello. This project claims the article Bullfighting as falling under its domain, so I thought I would bring it to your attention that I have started a discussion about the article's status as a Featured Article. I would appreciate some help with it if anyone has some time. Please discuss it Talk:Bullfighting#Featured?. Thank you. -- Falcorian (talk) 16:27, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Battle of Alesia has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
While trolling through random pages, I found the above-named article. It's problematic, but not a deletion candidate. Take a look at it. Try to figure out why the French Wikipedia does not have an article on this guy. YechielMan 05:51, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Bullfighting has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. -- Falcorian (talk) 01:01, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
As per Wikipedia:WikiProject France/Assessment there are currently over 13000 unassessed articles. Any suggestions how we could motivate the Wikipedia:WikiProject France/Members to clear up this back log? STTW (talk) 18:06, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
After reviewing many "Anglicised" article content over the past days, I can only conclude that the "translation" quality is poor at best: The English word was switched for the French in most all cases, without the provision of any added context or comprehension at all. I move to put these articles back in their former state - which in most cases was a use of both English and French terms where context and comprehension permitted. There was no need nor call for this hasty crusade.
The article titles, on the other hand, can stay in their English form - further discussion pending - as I do seem to sense a general consensus on this through the discussion here. All the same, the location of some of these should be reviewed by a few, and discussion about this would no doubt be useful. For example, is the term "department" even needed in the article title of a department (like putting "province" in Ontario? THEPROMENADER 12:25, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
That is not a natural solution, far from it. It is an assumption that you are correct and that we must follow what you, personally, believe. Of the informed people above, those that understand English that is and not declaring falsehoods and POV as fact, then I would say that consenus is to anglicise. But that is my POV. Also, it is your POV that the result is a mess. Why, exactly, is it a mess. List me 100 examples of errors that Kiwipete or myself or others did. You state 1000 articles were modified, please give me at least 10% where the modifications have resulted in the articles being a mess as we speak now. I posit that the articles as they were were a mess, far too many external links, far too much advertising, incorrect information and an overuse of the French language where exact and commonly used translations are found in English and that they have been reasonably tidied. However, I see that you also believe that the English words used are neither commonly used or exact translations. But since you provide no evidence to support your claims, they are POV, not fact, and POV has nothing to do here. -- Bob 18:55, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I think it may be time to go to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration (I doubt that mediation would resolve anything and it would only wear everyone down).-- NYArtsnWords 23:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Welcome, WikiProject France, to the WikiProject France! Please direct any questions about the project to its talk page. If you create new articles on France-related topics, please list them at our announcement page and tag their talk page with our project template {{ WikiProject France}}. A few features that you might find helpful:
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask me or any of the more experienced members of the project, and we'll be very happy to help you. Again, welcome, and thank you for joining this project! STTW (talk) 23:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
There is a dispute going on concerning Template:Comarques of Catalonia, where some editors wish to include areas which were historically part of Catalonia (e.g. in the Pyrénées-Orientales). Comments from editors are requested at Template talk:Comarques of Catalonia. Physchim62 (talk) 13:04, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I have initiated a Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration#Anglicisation of French administrative terms. Please leave your comments. -- NYArtsnWords 22:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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Archives from January 2007 - February 2007
For département, the case seems pretty clear. The word is used in English to mean exactly the same thing as the French word:
For region, it's a bit more complicated, in that many of the dictionaries don't show something similar to the French regions as a possible definition. But OED has the following as definition 5b:
One might also note, please, Regions of England, which uses "region" in precisely the sense of the French région, for the highest order administrative subdivisions of the country. Anyway, the basic point is, that "department" and "region" are most certainly used for these French divisions, and are clearly proper meanings of the English words. It is true that sometimes the French is used instead, but this seems like unwarranted Francocentrism (or possibly anglocentrism, since French is the language that English speakers, especially in the UK, have traditionally been most likely to know). As someone who doesn't speak Italian or Spanish, Having the article Regioni of Italy, or whatever, seems completely absurd to me. département and so forth don't sound nearly as silly to me, but that's just because I speak French. There are perfectly good English words available, and in context, there shouldn't ever be any serious ambiguity (and eliminating ambiguity in situations where there is no context seems like a fool's errand). john k 17:07, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually, no. It may also mean a department within a larger organisation such as the CNRS. They don't translate many of their departmental names into English, and since are not often used, remain in their French forms in many publications in English. Such départements include Département des Sciences Chimiques or Le département des sciences du vivant, if we are to use their proper names. However, if an article were to be written about them here on the English wiki, you can bet your bottom dollar that they would be translated to the English form, which would be correct. You see, département can mean a multitude of things, just as the department does. -- Bob 18:03, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
This is totally absurd. We have an English word that means exactly what we want it to mean. In the case of "region" we can come up with English usages that are precisely identical to the formal French term. See again Regions of England. In the case of department, I'm not aware of any anglophone countries divided into departments, but the word has been used in this sense for two centuries now. If you want to make an argument that it is, for some reason, preferable to use the French terms, please do so, and I might even be somewhat sympathetic, but don't give us this bullshit that the translation is wrong or inappropriate. john k 18:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
So you feel the French terms are more appropriate because to you they convey a more precise definition... However, the French term for department is also used in a number of different countries, each with its own specific and precise usage for things other than administratuve regions. Same with région. The English terms are not vague, but precise and have been used as such for over 2 centuries in English. Just because a definition of a word is unknown by some, doesn't invalidate the definition. For instance, should we cater the Wimbledon article to those that don't know the meaning of set in a tennis context? Should we remove the e from Senate ? Should we replace the usage of the word région in all countries that use this as an administrative region with something else? No. we shouldn't. We should use the most appropriate word in English when there is one available. Would I advocate the replacement of Laïcité with secularism or similar? No. Because there is not an appropriate translation in English. This isn't willy nilly anglicisation, it is common sense. -- Bob 19:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I would both argue that the English translations are too vague and abstruse This is a POV statement, unless you can back it up with a reference that states that the English terms are vague, it is original research and any argument put forth using it as a basis discredited. -- Bob 19:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Provide a reference stating that the two department and region are easily confused in English texts talking about French stuff. Again,
WP:POV,
WP:NOR and
WP:V come into play. If you are unable to do so, just state that.
Just because it has been done like this for so long doesn't mean that it need continue like that. How often has the Main Page been changed in the life of wikipedia? -- Bob 20:50, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
No wikilawyering here... just assertation of the basic premise of no original research. Again, provide a reference for what you state. If you can't, just state that you can't. We won't abhor you for it. The reason I am so persistant in this is that you base your entire opposition on an assumption that is your (and Aquarelle's) POV, yet you are seemingly unable to confirm this POV using a secondary souce. Please provide one. Why do people want to use English terms? So that all articles follow a similar path. I am not one for compartmentalising wikipedia into factions, but would like to see uniformity across the whole. If French articles keep the French terms, then every single article on administrative divisions in every country across the entire wikipedia that uses English terms needs to be formatted differently. -- Bob 22:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
This argument could be widened to the rest of wikipedia. If the French articles keep the French names for everything, then why do articles on other country subdivisions get translated into the appropriate English terms when applicable? What is it about the French that they can keep their terms in English, yet vice versa they get translated? Why are the regions of Italy and Belgium translated to English and the departments of Argentina, Columbia and Poland translated? There doesn't seem to be much confusion outside of the French articles? Why is this do you imagine? If you have a reason, provide a reference. -- Bob 22:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Please provide references for the following:
Thank you. -- Bob 22:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Come on. Fulfil this list of questions, otherwise you are wrong." All the same:
Now, how about listing some of the merits of Anglicisation? THEPROMENADER 22:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
We should use English when appropriate. It is appropriate here and has been discussed ad nauseum at WP:UE and WP:MOS as well as other country wikiprojects such as Mexico. My interpretation, and that of others, is that the English convention is not restricted to the title, especially when a more than appropriate translation exists. Now, I want secondary sources, not just your opinion. Please provide links to articles pertaining to yours (and others) statements which you have used to promote your opinion. Again, I am not requesting your opinion. I am requesting facts from secondary sources that confirm your opinion and statements. Please provide them. -- Bob 23:23, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Commune is an English word so that article no longer conforms to wiki guidelines. A reference would be citing me something from an academic journal, a respected translation expert, a reliable source. If you are still confused as to what a source/reference is, please see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Types_of_source_material. We have cited numerous sources/references such as the French government, OED, NOED, INSEE, British government etc. Please show me something from an external source that validates your statements. An external source is not an article on wikipedia, as that is the subject of the discussion. Again, if you are unable to do so, just state that you are unable to confirm and validate your statements. Thank you. -- Bob 02:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I am aware that WP:UE (and formerly WP:ANG) refers to the article titles, which is why about 350 articles/templates/categories were recently moved to respect this convention, something which the original authors didn't follow, but is now respected. Still more need to be moved to conform to WP:V as the current setup is inaccurate. In WP:MOS, it states per the guide to writing better Wikipedia articles, use foreign words sparingly. Perestroika has now been integrated into the English language, and if we are to follow current guidelines as stated in WP:BETTER, it should not be italicised. Finally, this is important as wikipedia is not a compartmentalised work, there must be uniformity amongst articles. If a it:Regioni d'Italia is translated as Regions of Italy, and subsequent articles follow that nomenclature, and landsvæði is translated as regions and fylker as counties etc etc etc for words not commonly found in English dictionaries, then why leave the French forms when the translation is found in dictionaries and is in common use in all forms of written English? If we are to use the French forms throughout wikipedia, then the same courtesy must be extended to every article using English translations in the place of local administrative subdivision foreign words not found in most dictionaries. I would love to read an article describing Icelandic landsvæði. -- Bob 02:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
A couple of points. With respect to "regions" what is the operative difference between a Region of England and a French region, that requires us to use the French word région for the latter? Wikipedia is already, by necessity, using the word "region" to mean something almost exactly identical to the way région is used in French for administrative subdivisions. With respect to departments, any geographical use of the term "department" is for something similar to the French case - for an administrative subdivision. Although the word "department" has other meanings in English (just like the French département), it ought to just about always be clear from context if a geographical context is meant. Even so, to pretend that the history department (or whatever) of a French university can be translated as "department," but that the name for the department of the Gironde cannot be is absurd. In both cases the French word being used is département - it is completely arbitrary to insist that one is appropriate to translate, and that the other isn't. This whole thing appears to arise out of a desire to create a distinction between the French meanings of département and région and the English meanings of department and region, that doesn't really exist. And the whole thing is based on special pleading for the French language - and not just for the French language, but for the French language as used in France to refer to things in France. If région and département convey more specific things than "region" and "department," it is entirely artificial - it does not arise in the slightest out of their usage in French, but only out of the fact that in these particular administrative contexts writers in English are somewhat more likely to leave the words untranslated. So what it comes down to ought to be the extent to which these terms are actually left untranslated in English. From my experience, I would say that it is reasonably common, especially in academic works, but certainly not predominant, but I'd be interested to see evidence. The only argument I can see as halfway plausible is one that the terms are usually left untranslated in English. I don't believe this is true, but this is the only potentially valid case to be made on the other side. The arguments that the translation is inappropriate remain bullshit, and any argument made on that basis strikes me as absurd. The only thing insisting on the French terms does is confuse people about the meaning of the French term, and imply much more restricted meanings for the French words than they actually have. In English, département may only be used to refer to French administrative subdivisions. But this is most certainly not true for use of the word in French. The issue ought not be one of translation at all - the translation is clearly good. The issue ought to be, pure and simple, one of common usage. john k 08:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I know Eric... and watercolour, the burden of proof argument is invalid. You are proposing arguments for a POV in a discussion on naming conventions. You are claiming these things exist. You, Steveage, promenader and Inshu should back up your arguments with valid sources. If you are unable to show proof for your arguments, then they ARE original research. You are claimimg things to be fact, we have shown our hand with references and fact, please do the courtesy of returning that gesture. If you don't, then your arguments really do become untenable. Show sources. -- Bob 15:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I've become unclear on what exactly we are arguing about. If the argument being made is that it's fine to use either the French or the English term, I can't bring myself to object all that much. Personally, I think "administrative region" is generally clearer than région, when additional context is needed, and that "department" is pretty much never going to be unclear when used in a geographical context, but I'm not going to object if people want to have some variety and to sometimes use the French. I had thought, though, that much stronger claims were being made - essentially, that the English terms are never appropriate, or almost never appropriate. This I strongly object to, and think is pretty clearly wrong. Anyway, whatever. I no longer am clear on what anybody is actually proposing. I think I'm going to sit this out for a while. john k 16:33, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Please provide sources for the following:
These have been put forward as FACT. I would like references to back up these FACTS. If reliable references are shown to me and prove this position then I will back down regarding the usage of the French terms within the text. However, if y'all are unable to do this, then again, I say that this position is untenable. I would like to put this to a vote with real, referenced facts in the preamble to any vote so that those voting are aware of exactly what means what and why, and do not vote on any unsubstantiated POV based on someone else obfuscating the real definitions are terminology. The refusal to provide sources just leads me to suspect that there are no sources to back up your facts. -- Bob 17:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Again, you have put forward an argument of fact. I would like to see references to all those points. If there are compelling sourced arguments from reliable sources, then I will drop this. These facts have been accepted as read by those less informed. I would like to see sources for these facts. Provide them please. -- Bob 18:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
If you are unable to provide sources that back up your claims, just state that. -- Bob 18:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I will attempt to provide a reference for Eric. You see, he put forward an opinion and we try to back them up with sources. [1]. However, maybe Eric has access to better sources. Maybe you could do this for the statements listed below.-- Bob 20:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
No less valid...
Just a few that debate the usefulness of foreign terms when the English is more than sufficient. -- Bob 20:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Well, no Eric - as far as I can see, your point of view is based on your... own point of view. I can't know of your logic and experience, but I hope it wasn't that reflected in your selective and often non-sequitur arguments. Using the italicised form works, as does the English version if it has either the correct context or added explanation, but nowhere have you or anyone managed to say why the italicised form is wrong - you have simply declared that it is. As you have declared that you have made arguments where in fact you have made none. Wiki contributors in their majority (it seems thus far) have chosen the italicised native-language technique for some words, and authours of other publications have chosen other methods: citing examples of the latter, or examples of English-usage that do have context, will never prove the italicised version "wrong". This "wrongness" is your point of view on the matter - nothing more. THEPROMENADER 21:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd tried to remain fixed on the question of "what is the point of using the italicised native-language term, and why do so many do it" in trying to argue on the basis of simple common sense, and did not really look to see to what real exent the French italicised term is used in English wikipedia. I had a look just now, and was amazed to the extent that it is in use: 8,299 results for "département", and 3,847 results for région alone - and this is articles containing the term (many in the title - lord knows how many occurences when one considers the content of the same articles. Thus, fellows, it seems that the italicised form is indeed a major part of the Wiki landscape.
Then I find this. I have to say it is everthing I feared in my arguments above - an out-of-context translation of every French word in the " Regions of France" article, without any attention at all to the writing style or sentence meaning. Sorry Bob, but this is at once overzealous and lazy. You even translated "managed by a regional assembly (conseil régional)" to "managed by a regional assembly (General council)" - for lord's sake! This is just dumb!
In looking at the above article's talk page I see a short but inconclusive discussion to change article titles, but nothing substantial (or even less, conclusive) about content. Then Bob's lone one-line "Requested move, I translated the article" message, and this five days after discussion had ended - there was no discussion to that end, and certainly no conclusion to the same, and certainly not for anything widespread! This is really just unprecedented. How far has this gone already? How many articles have been "translated" in the same sloppy "French-word witch-hunt" way?! Really, I just don't know what to say. THEPROMENADER 17:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
There is no witchhunt as you would put it, merely trying to use words that already exist and being more precise while at it. Please also note that I have been rewording towns/villages for commune (I italicise here even though it is an English word), also district for arrondissement (same deal). I made one mistake, big deal. I have corrected far more language and grammatical errors than I have made... Nobody is perfect. -- Bob 17:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I had to look. Bob, you even eliminated inter-wiki links to very relevent French-topic articles. How many other edits like this and those above did you do? Will you look at this - and possibly a thousand pages before it. The first is possibly this one, and nowhere do i see any sign of any discussion about this anywhere. Ever. THEPROMENADER 20:11, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
So as to avoid mirrors of wikipedia, lets look at a few searches (and these were random):
-- Bob 18:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
If you want to provide a relevent search, do one within Wiki. Every publication has its own practices, and Wiki already has its own it seems. "What others do" is not an argument, but "why others do it" is. THEPROMENADER 18:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
ok.
This isn't slight preference for the English form, this is overwhelming usage of the English form. Those departments didn't bloat the figures to a 10 fold increase... -- Bob 19:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
The English form has twice the number again. Your point? [17] [18] -- Bob 19:32, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
If one were to look at the word department by itself, the numbers would invariably come back with a higher usage due to its other definitions. Therefore, by including the terms France or French one reduces the liklihood of false results. To answer your question, many French terms are incorrectly italicised. Why? No idea, but probably because no-one took the time to look at WP:BETTER. Did a majority do this? I have no idea, as there were numerous pages that I didn't change as they were already using English terms. However, there is a lot of housekeeping to do before some form of consistency may be applied to French articles in en.wikipedia. -- Bob 20:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
The idea of using a wikipedia search as the basis for what wikipedia usage should be is completely insane and circular, since any of us can change what wikipedia usage is. Sigh. That people on both sides appear to have at different points claimed that this is a useful measure is deeply disheartening. john k 22:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
As per Wikipedia:Resolving disputes, I think perhaps it is time to open up the discussion to a larger audience (perhaps via a RfC) and for all parties to take a pause:
Wikipedia works by building consensus. To develop a consensus on a disputed topic, you may need to expose the issue to a larger audience. Options for doing this include:
- Wikipedia:Requests for comment, the main avenue for general disputes
- Wikipedia:Third opinion, for disputes involving only two editors
- Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts, for problems with uncivil editors
- Asking at subject-specific Wikipedia:WikiProjects or policy pages relevant to the issue.
If you have not agreed to a truce before this point, you should do so now. This allows others to consider the issue fairly without the confusion of ongoing edits, which are likely to aggravate the dispute. If an edit war persists and parties refuse to stop, you may request that the page be protected to allow the process to move forward.
-- NYArtsnWords 19:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
This is a dispute about whether the English or French terms department/département and region/région should be used (a) in article titles, and/or (b) in article leads and/or (c) in the text of articles dealing with France and its administrative divisions. Please read the above discussion. Those in favor of the English terms cite the guidelines of WP:UE, WP:BETTER, WP:NCGN and WP:NAME and assert that the use of the English terms is appropriate, frequent, and not subject to unnecessary confusion. Those in favor of keeping the French terms in some or all of the above cases assert that the French terms define specific French administrative divisions, that their use on the English wikipedia has been longstanding, and that the use of English terms will create confusion for many readers unacquainted with their specific French usage. -- NYArtsnWords 20:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry, but all of what you state is cherrypicked and it also seems to me that you appear to want to browbeat people into accepting your POV. It is true that one should not assume readership, but I would assume that that would mean use English, as English is what anglophones tend to understand. You want people to write to the lowest common denominator, but that would entail using words that are unnecessary. My previous example of set is perfect in this context. What does it mean? The set of the tide? The three sets required to win a match of tennis at Wimbledon? The set in a theatre? The set of a stone in a bracelet? English words have many definitions, and in this case, exact translations as aluded to more than adequately above. To state anything different would be both incorrect and POV unless a source can be provided that backs up this claim. A source being an academic in the transaltion field, an academic journal, an expert in the field of English-French translations or similar. It is not unreasonable to assume that department and region may mean different things outside of the most common definitions, especially as both England and Scotland have/or had administrative regions. To assume that the average reader is too stupid to understand this is baffling indeed. Using French where English is more than adequate is more likely to obfuscate people than enlighten them, as alluded to above in the references regarding using French terms where English is more than adequate. Thank you. -- Bob 18:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Again, you fail to comprehend a quite simple argument. 'tis quite baffling. However, as your POV is more than adequately found on this page, why not leave some space for others to comment? Our reasons are clearly stated above, yet you fail to read and/or understand them. The RfC is here to clarify the position of those involved and seek broader comment from others. Obfsucating the opinion of some users here does not help in this procedure. -- Bob 01:26, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
...Quite simple argument? Non-existent, You mean! I would think that filling the "statement" section with biased argument-sounding "examples" would affect external opinion more than a common-sense answer to the same in the "comments" section would. If you don't like the "French method", just say so, and find others that share your opinion - but please, don't go to such an effort to leave texts that insinuate - not prove - that the system is broken and needs fixing, when it is nothing of the kind; it is this sort of argument that obliges me to answer in kind. And if a "comment" section can't be used for comments, what the hell is it for? This thread is about your hasty no-consensus translations, not about my method of argument. No more "lawyerly" distractions from the real question, please. THEPROMENADER 13:42, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree (again) with User:ThePromenader and strongly object to this recent trend of Anglicisation. The French terms are more specific than the English terms and the words are similar enough that non-French-speaking readers aren't gonna get confused. The English Wikipedia has used the French-language terms since I came onboard ages ago and, frankly, using the English-language terms seems like we're oversimplifying and dumbing-down. If it's good enough for the Encyclopædia Britannica, it's good enough for Wikipedia. — OwenBlacker 20:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
This is beginning to sound like reason. Indeed, there is no "real" reason why articles should use one method or another to describe their subject - all that counts is that the identity of the subject is clear. If it is clear that we are indeed talking about administrative areas, there is no reason not to use English "department" or "region", but if we are but indicating an area as a locale of a certain event or in an attribution, the meaning of the same words, because of their similarity, may be ambiguous in meaning, so there is no reason not to use the perfectly Anglo-comprehensible French word form to indicate the word's true meaning and purpose. What I'm actually doing here is describing the existing system.
My only reservation is about article titles. Is it really necessary to add "department" to the proper name of a department - when that proper name is nothing other than a department? I can understand in cases of disambiguation ( Île-de-France for example: it is both a historical province and a région), but perhaps this is not neccessary - unless it is an official name. Some may argue so. THEPROMENADER 17:41, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not looking forward to writing about department stores that sell AOC Corbières in the Corbières region in the région Languedoc-Roussillon in the Départment de l'Aude.
This won't necessarily happen all the time, but articles can sometimes be clarified by using the word "region" to mean "general area" in a paragraph where an editor has already written something about the "région" of France that the "region" is in. I've been trying to expand some wine articles and a lot of them get confusing and muddled if I'm not really careful with the language. There are régions, départements, regions (colloquial), AOCs, communes and towns that often share space and/or share names. Especially in the AOCs.
There is a vineyard in the AOC Cabardes where the grapes are technically in three different communes, none of which are Ventenac-Cabardès. There are also grapes in Ventenac-Cabardès that aren't Cabardes. What is a boy to do other than to use the word region or the phrase "surrounding area" a heck of a lot? The latter gets clunky, but I wouldn't want somebody to revert région to region in a paragraph where I've already used the word region colloquially. mroconnell 16:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Battle of the Somme has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 00:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The contents table on the article on Napoleon III has a subsection (3.4) called "Foreign Policy", under the Foreign Policy section there are, I guess one could say, sub-subsections. The 'sub-subsections' included are "The Crimean War"(3.4.1), "East Asia"(3.4.3) and "Italy"(3.4.4). Then the following nations are listed as subsections instead of 'sub-subsections': "United States of America"(3.5), "Mexico"(3.6) and "Prussia"(3.7). I tried to align them appropriately but I don't know how to edit the contents table. You can find what I am talking about in the contents table at Napoleon III. Faustus Tacitus 02:43, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
There is a discussion on the talk page regarding moving the name of this article to one that is more consistent with other grape related articles. Since there is a regional preference between Syrah & Shiraz, any additional input would be appreciated. Please voice your comments on the Talk:Shiraz grape page. Agne 22:43, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello. This project claims the article Bullfighting as falling under its domain, so I thought I would bring it to your attention that I have started a discussion about the article's status as a Featured Article. I would appreciate some help with it if anyone has some time. Please discuss it Talk:Bullfighting#Featured?. Thank you. -- Falcorian (talk) 16:27, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Battle of Alesia has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
While trolling through random pages, I found the above-named article. It's problematic, but not a deletion candidate. Take a look at it. Try to figure out why the French Wikipedia does not have an article on this guy. YechielMan 05:51, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Bullfighting has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. -- Falcorian (talk) 01:01, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
As per Wikipedia:WikiProject France/Assessment there are currently over 13000 unassessed articles. Any suggestions how we could motivate the Wikipedia:WikiProject France/Members to clear up this back log? STTW (talk) 18:06, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
After reviewing many "Anglicised" article content over the past days, I can only conclude that the "translation" quality is poor at best: The English word was switched for the French in most all cases, without the provision of any added context or comprehension at all. I move to put these articles back in their former state - which in most cases was a use of both English and French terms where context and comprehension permitted. There was no need nor call for this hasty crusade.
The article titles, on the other hand, can stay in their English form - further discussion pending - as I do seem to sense a general consensus on this through the discussion here. All the same, the location of some of these should be reviewed by a few, and discussion about this would no doubt be useful. For example, is the term "department" even needed in the article title of a department (like putting "province" in Ontario? THEPROMENADER 12:25, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
That is not a natural solution, far from it. It is an assumption that you are correct and that we must follow what you, personally, believe. Of the informed people above, those that understand English that is and not declaring falsehoods and POV as fact, then I would say that consenus is to anglicise. But that is my POV. Also, it is your POV that the result is a mess. Why, exactly, is it a mess. List me 100 examples of errors that Kiwipete or myself or others did. You state 1000 articles were modified, please give me at least 10% where the modifications have resulted in the articles being a mess as we speak now. I posit that the articles as they were were a mess, far too many external links, far too much advertising, incorrect information and an overuse of the French language where exact and commonly used translations are found in English and that they have been reasonably tidied. However, I see that you also believe that the English words used are neither commonly used or exact translations. But since you provide no evidence to support your claims, they are POV, not fact, and POV has nothing to do here. -- Bob 18:55, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I think it may be time to go to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration (I doubt that mediation would resolve anything and it would only wear everyone down).-- NYArtsnWords 23:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Welcome, WikiProject France, to the WikiProject France! Please direct any questions about the project to its talk page. If you create new articles on France-related topics, please list them at our announcement page and tag their talk page with our project template {{ WikiProject France}}. A few features that you might find helpful:
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask me or any of the more experienced members of the project, and we'll be very happy to help you. Again, welcome, and thank you for joining this project! STTW (talk) 23:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
There is a dispute going on concerning Template:Comarques of Catalonia, where some editors wish to include areas which were historically part of Catalonia (e.g. in the Pyrénées-Orientales). Comments from editors are requested at Template talk:Comarques of Catalonia. Physchim62 (talk) 13:04, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I have initiated a Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration#Anglicisation of French administrative terms. Please leave your comments. -- NYArtsnWords 22:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
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