User:Toniher is constantly reverting my contributions and accusing me of Vandalism... Maybe this morning the south of France and part of Aragonhas suddenly become part of Catalonia and I'm unaware of that fact. Meanwhile THEY ARE NOT PART OF CATALONIA and this template should say it so. Nobody is going to include in a template with the "comarques of Catalonia" french or aragonese territory.
You still haven't prove yourself adding official documents from France and Aragon confirming these territories to be part of Catalonia in present day.
I will not... I repeat, I will not tolerate this pro-catalan acting towards my home countries!!!
This said, I would like to kindly ask all the contributors which feel the "urgent need" to fool and fill the Wikipedia world with Pan-Catalanism, Catalan Countries wannabe, Catalan nationalism and just plain false pseudo-Catalan History to restraint themselves from doing it. Not all the surrounding lands to Catalonia feel the need to become part of it, and the english Wikipedia will not become a highway to "export" their history "a la carte". Giving for right the fact that we should not generalize, I often wonders if these people suffer from the well-known "Catalan Small Penis Syndrome" (Are we allowed to say "penis"?)
WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A PRO-CATALAN POLITICAL PAMPHLET Maurice27 00:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Maurice27, Toniher, a difference of opinion as to what this template should include is not vandalism. I have protected the template for one week to stop the repeated reversions of edits which has been going on. A Request for Comment has been opened below to sollicite opinions from other members of the Wikipedia community, and you are both more than welcome to add your points of view, but please do so in a constructive manner which respects the opinions of others. You might also like to read the page Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Physchim62 (talk) 13:21, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Should this template be limited to comarques within the autonomous community of Catalonia or should it also include areas which were historically part of Catalonia? 12:21, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
---
See (just as examples):
Fenolheda, where the Official name is Fenouillèdes, redirected to the catalan name. I am accused of anti-catalanism for using the official. Capcir, where it is mentioned to be an "historical Catalan comarca of Northern Catalonia" (both of which do not exist) even before as French territory. I am accused of anti-catalanism for reverting that. Vallespir Same us previous one French Cerdagne The addition of a political map of France locating this territory was the reason for User:Toniher to accuse me of anti-catalanism and reverting my edit. Northern Catalonia all the names in that page are in catalan, while NONE of these are official, and are not the english ones to be used in the english wikipedia. I was accused of anti-catalanism and my edits were reverted.
WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A PRO-CATALAN POLITICAL PAMPHLET Maurice27 15:37, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
---
Dear Maurice27, let me try to explain you my opinion about that question.
First at all, I would like to emphasize that the discussion about the term "Catalonia" should just be a dicussion about the HISTORICAL term. I don't understand your continued relation to politics or Catalan nationalism, just for talking about the content of the term "Catalonia". Please stop doing it, it has no sense.
Use of the term Catalonia. The term was non-officially used from, at least, XIV century (please read Principality of Catalonia article) refered to the territories of the County of Barcelona (part of the Kingdom of Aragon, then). OF COURSE, it has always included the current French Department of Eastern Pyrenees (Northern Catalonia) and some territories currently in the Spanish Autonomous Community of Aragon ("La Franja").
Extension of the term Catalonia. When somebody talks about Catalonia, I understand (like many both Catalan and non-Catalan people) its refered to the historical territory of Catalonia, not just the Catalan historical territories in Spain or in France. That's the same question of talking about Kurdistan (Turkey? Iraq? etc?), about Korea (Southern? Northern?) or about Ireland (Republic? UK?): their historical territories are spread in more than one current state. You can just properly think in the respective historical territories if you just use the historical word. If you want to talk properly about just the Spanish Autonomus Community of Catalonia you should call it like this.
Your example of Gibraltar and Spain. Spain is currently a state. So the term Spain clearly refers to the current territories that belong to the current Kingdom of Spain. So the term does not currently include Gibraltar, of course. Catalonia is not currently a state. So, in the same sense as in your comparison, it includes NO territories. So we can just talk about "Catalonia" as a historical region, or SPECIFICALLY about some of its historical territories, currently regions of Spain and France (Spanish Autonomous Community of Catalonia, French Department of Eastern Pyrenees or La Franja "comarques" in Spanish Autonomous Community of Aragon).
Use of Catalan names. A template related to Catalonia, of course CAN include the Catalan terms. I think there's no point when they are the official appellation, and I think they CAN be perfectly used in the appellation of the HISTORICAL "comarques" of Northern Catalonia. Nobody discusses that currently the official names of that territories are the French ones. You can read it by entering in any one of that articles. Catalan names are currently used between Catalan people (both French and Spanish), they are besides French names in many villages of Northern Catalonia, and remeber they have been official appellations in past times, although they are not now. The elimination of Wikipedia of those non-official appellations should be so stupid like eliminating "Bizantium", "Königsberg" or "Stalingrad". Everybody can use them in a historical sense, although they are not currently official appellations. Your example of Indi appellation of London is, of course, just another question...
Please let me know what do you think about it.
Best regards
Eddl 19:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Eddl, thanks for, at least trying to explain the edits, but you are completely missing the point:
Nobody denies that Catalan names are currently used between Catalan people (both French and Spanish), but that is about a 6% of spanish population and a negligeable (??0,001%??) of french population. It becomes a complete 0% when we talk about english-speaking population, and let's not forget this is the english Wikipedia, Nor the catalan, nor the french, nor the spanish. In english Wikipedia, if people search for Chishima Islands (the japanese name) it redirects to the correct english name of Kuril Islands. Then why if someone searchs for Roussillon he is redirected to the non-correct english name of "Rosselló"?
Regards, Maurice27 22:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Eddl 10:19, 26 February 2007 (UTC)== Proposal ==
After reading your opinions, I think the addition of just one line in the template could clarify possible ambiguous senses:
Existing title: Comarques of Catalonia New line: Comarques of Autonoumous Community of Catalonia (including all comarques in the Autonomous Community) Existing line: Historical Comarques of Northern Catalonia (anyone interested in knowing what Northern Catalonia means and its status can follow the link) Existing line: La Franja Comarques (anyone interested in knowing what La Franja means and its status can follow the link)
Some points:
Please let me know your opinions about this proposal.
Best regards,
Eddl 18:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
---
Regards, Maurice27 19:47, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
---
Well, the former territories of the Count of Barcelona that mantain some Catalan culture (the language is the main example) were from, at least, XIVth century called "Catalonia" in a geographical (not political, it's true) sense. This definition excludes on purpose some territories that belonged to the Count of Barcelona, but that currently (and I think not even then) have no Catalan culture. I mean some possessions in Provence. Well, I think these historical facts includes "Department of Eastern Pyrenees" territories to historical Catalonia, and I repeat: I think there's NO POLITICAL reason in that.
Best regards,
Eddl 16:55, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Sincere regards, Maurice27 21:44, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
As external reference, see a map edited by the Conseil Général du Pyrénées-Orientales where the comarcas and the name in Catalan are being used: http://www.cg66.fr/culture/catalanite/carta.pdf. The Conseil Général is the local french government for every Department. I think this no need more additional comments that comarcas are being used as cultural and historical reference of the villages, towns and cities of Northern Catalonia. There's no "Pays du Roussillon" but "le Pays Catalan". -- Joanot Martorell ✉ 17:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
User:Toniher is constantly reverting my contributions and accusing me of Vandalism... Maybe this morning the south of France and part of Aragonhas suddenly become part of Catalonia and I'm unaware of that fact. Meanwhile THEY ARE NOT PART OF CATALONIA and this template should say it so. Nobody is going to include in a template with the "comarques of Catalonia" french or aragonese territory.
You still haven't prove yourself adding official documents from France and Aragon confirming these territories to be part of Catalonia in present day.
I will not... I repeat, I will not tolerate this pro-catalan acting towards my home countries!!!
This said, I would like to kindly ask all the contributors which feel the "urgent need" to fool and fill the Wikipedia world with Pan-Catalanism, Catalan Countries wannabe, Catalan nationalism and just plain false pseudo-Catalan History to restraint themselves from doing it. Not all the surrounding lands to Catalonia feel the need to become part of it, and the english Wikipedia will not become a highway to "export" their history "a la carte". Giving for right the fact that we should not generalize, I often wonders if these people suffer from the well-known "Catalan Small Penis Syndrome" (Are we allowed to say "penis"?)
WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A PRO-CATALAN POLITICAL PAMPHLET Maurice27 00:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Maurice27, Toniher, a difference of opinion as to what this template should include is not vandalism. I have protected the template for one week to stop the repeated reversions of edits which has been going on. A Request for Comment has been opened below to sollicite opinions from other members of the Wikipedia community, and you are both more than welcome to add your points of view, but please do so in a constructive manner which respects the opinions of others. You might also like to read the page Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Physchim62 (talk) 13:21, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Should this template be limited to comarques within the autonomous community of Catalonia or should it also include areas which were historically part of Catalonia? 12:21, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
---
See (just as examples):
Fenolheda, where the Official name is Fenouillèdes, redirected to the catalan name. I am accused of anti-catalanism for using the official. Capcir, where it is mentioned to be an "historical Catalan comarca of Northern Catalonia" (both of which do not exist) even before as French territory. I am accused of anti-catalanism for reverting that. Vallespir Same us previous one French Cerdagne The addition of a political map of France locating this territory was the reason for User:Toniher to accuse me of anti-catalanism and reverting my edit. Northern Catalonia all the names in that page are in catalan, while NONE of these are official, and are not the english ones to be used in the english wikipedia. I was accused of anti-catalanism and my edits were reverted.
WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A PRO-CATALAN POLITICAL PAMPHLET Maurice27 15:37, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
---
Dear Maurice27, let me try to explain you my opinion about that question.
First at all, I would like to emphasize that the discussion about the term "Catalonia" should just be a dicussion about the HISTORICAL term. I don't understand your continued relation to politics or Catalan nationalism, just for talking about the content of the term "Catalonia". Please stop doing it, it has no sense.
Use of the term Catalonia. The term was non-officially used from, at least, XIV century (please read Principality of Catalonia article) refered to the territories of the County of Barcelona (part of the Kingdom of Aragon, then). OF COURSE, it has always included the current French Department of Eastern Pyrenees (Northern Catalonia) and some territories currently in the Spanish Autonomous Community of Aragon ("La Franja").
Extension of the term Catalonia. When somebody talks about Catalonia, I understand (like many both Catalan and non-Catalan people) its refered to the historical territory of Catalonia, not just the Catalan historical territories in Spain or in France. That's the same question of talking about Kurdistan (Turkey? Iraq? etc?), about Korea (Southern? Northern?) or about Ireland (Republic? UK?): their historical territories are spread in more than one current state. You can just properly think in the respective historical territories if you just use the historical word. If you want to talk properly about just the Spanish Autonomus Community of Catalonia you should call it like this.
Your example of Gibraltar and Spain. Spain is currently a state. So the term Spain clearly refers to the current territories that belong to the current Kingdom of Spain. So the term does not currently include Gibraltar, of course. Catalonia is not currently a state. So, in the same sense as in your comparison, it includes NO territories. So we can just talk about "Catalonia" as a historical region, or SPECIFICALLY about some of its historical territories, currently regions of Spain and France (Spanish Autonomous Community of Catalonia, French Department of Eastern Pyrenees or La Franja "comarques" in Spanish Autonomous Community of Aragon).
Use of Catalan names. A template related to Catalonia, of course CAN include the Catalan terms. I think there's no point when they are the official appellation, and I think they CAN be perfectly used in the appellation of the HISTORICAL "comarques" of Northern Catalonia. Nobody discusses that currently the official names of that territories are the French ones. You can read it by entering in any one of that articles. Catalan names are currently used between Catalan people (both French and Spanish), they are besides French names in many villages of Northern Catalonia, and remeber they have been official appellations in past times, although they are not now. The elimination of Wikipedia of those non-official appellations should be so stupid like eliminating "Bizantium", "Königsberg" or "Stalingrad". Everybody can use them in a historical sense, although they are not currently official appellations. Your example of Indi appellation of London is, of course, just another question...
Please let me know what do you think about it.
Best regards
Eddl 19:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Eddl, thanks for, at least trying to explain the edits, but you are completely missing the point:
Nobody denies that Catalan names are currently used between Catalan people (both French and Spanish), but that is about a 6% of spanish population and a negligeable (??0,001%??) of french population. It becomes a complete 0% when we talk about english-speaking population, and let's not forget this is the english Wikipedia, Nor the catalan, nor the french, nor the spanish. In english Wikipedia, if people search for Chishima Islands (the japanese name) it redirects to the correct english name of Kuril Islands. Then why if someone searchs for Roussillon he is redirected to the non-correct english name of "Rosselló"?
Regards, Maurice27 22:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Eddl 10:19, 26 February 2007 (UTC)== Proposal ==
After reading your opinions, I think the addition of just one line in the template could clarify possible ambiguous senses:
Existing title: Comarques of Catalonia New line: Comarques of Autonoumous Community of Catalonia (including all comarques in the Autonomous Community) Existing line: Historical Comarques of Northern Catalonia (anyone interested in knowing what Northern Catalonia means and its status can follow the link) Existing line: La Franja Comarques (anyone interested in knowing what La Franja means and its status can follow the link)
Some points:
Please let me know your opinions about this proposal.
Best regards,
Eddl 18:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
---
Regards, Maurice27 19:47, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
---
Well, the former territories of the Count of Barcelona that mantain some Catalan culture (the language is the main example) were from, at least, XIVth century called "Catalonia" in a geographical (not political, it's true) sense. This definition excludes on purpose some territories that belonged to the Count of Barcelona, but that currently (and I think not even then) have no Catalan culture. I mean some possessions in Provence. Well, I think these historical facts includes "Department of Eastern Pyrenees" territories to historical Catalonia, and I repeat: I think there's NO POLITICAL reason in that.
Best regards,
Eddl 16:55, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Sincere regards, Maurice27 21:44, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
As external reference, see a map edited by the Conseil Général du Pyrénées-Orientales where the comarcas and the name in Catalan are being used: http://www.cg66.fr/culture/catalanite/carta.pdf. The Conseil Général is the local french government for every Department. I think this no need more additional comments that comarcas are being used as cultural and historical reference of the villages, towns and cities of Northern Catalonia. There's no "Pays du Roussillon" but "le Pays Catalan". -- Joanot Martorell ✉ 17:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC)