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The article is currently rated as B class but I think that the article is much better than a B rating. It's about time we re-rated this. So what shall we give it now? Govvy 13:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Oldelpaso, what do you think of the standard of the article now? Govvy 12:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Jus wanted someone to review, suggest ideas, check, etc { Santiago26 05:17, 15 February 2007 (UTC)}
I would be grateful if some kind soul would have a looksee at the Swindon article and give me a suggestion on layout and also possibly help improve the prose in the history section.
At the moment the layout is a bit haphazard, with prose here and there and the history section is a heavily snipped extract from the main History of Swindon Town F.C. article, and as such reads like someone hammering facts into your head.
Oh and if anyone wants to assess it as well, be my guest. Cheers - Foxhill 15:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
This is the third request in a row. Perhaps people could post such requests at WP:PR instead? Punkmorten 15:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to all for your comments, they are much appreciated. I hope to have the article at a stage I would feel comfortable with for Peer Review within the next couple of weeks or so. I will reply to comments on the talk page later today, again - Many many thanks - Foxhill 12:33, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Forwarding a question from Forbsey on Talk:Rangers F.C., are manager statistics on club articles, e.g. Rangers F.C.#Team managers, domestic league matches only? Archibald99 19:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
The article listing the winners of the Norwegian Premier League is currently named Norwegian Soccer League Champions (Men). I want to move this page to something resembling the two Featured Articles we have, English football champions and Swedish football champions. The problem is that, unlike in England and Sweden and probably most other countries, it is not the winners of the league in Norway but the winners of the cup who are "Norwegian football champions" and so using this name for an article about the league winners would be misleading. I'm leaning towards Norwegian Premier League champions; the article could also be named Norwegian football league champions, although I think this name is too similar to "Norwegian football champions" and might cause some confusion. Any thoughts on this matter? -- Léman 00:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I've put some work into the Football in London article in recent days, any assitance would be appreciated. I'm hoping to 'wikify' all the clubs linked to from this article, so as to include the standard information table, and the link box at the bottom of the page to other teams in the division. Please come along and help! Grunners 15:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I was considering putting average league attendances for the 2006-7 season (calculated from Soccerbase) into an article (along with a percentage of the ground's capacity). Would you say there's enough value to make it worthwhile? If so, would you include it in the stadium article or the club article? (Preferably not both.) - Dudesleeper · Talk 23:47, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
This WikiProject has recently been created, so it probably should be inserted into the navbox alongside the A-League and Non-league projects. I have to say, I'm not entirely sure of it's purpose - until the Premiership split in 1992-93 all there was to professional football was the football league, so I don't understand why we need seperate articles for it alongside the present season articles. HornetMike 15:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
The definition of UEFA Intertoto Cup winner has not been defined, let's discuss about it. kYLE RaymonD GIGGS 17:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
My attention has been drawn to the large number of articles referring to A.F.C. Bournemouth that link to Bournemouth F.C. an amateur club based at Victoria Park who have never been a league club. I have fixed a whole bunch of league seasons records but it would be helpful if editors could keep an eye open for others that should go to A.F.C. Bournemouth. BlueValour 02:57, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
What do people think? Listcruft? A genuinely useful list? I've done a bit of cleanup and although inclined weakly to nom for deletion I thought I'd ask the opinion of people here first. Qwghlm 08:52, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
What are the opinions on this article? I personally think it should be moved to 2003 UEFA Cup final and restructured to give a more universal view on the subject. Archibald99 20:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I would like to point out a mistake. It says that there was not one single arrest. I know there was at least one, one Celtic fan stabbed another Celtic fan. And I am sure that i've read that there were more.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Allanmac9 ( talk • contribs) 02:49, 8 April 2007.
I want to bring up the decreasing activity at the football article improvement drive. The earlier success of the collaborations of this drive led to many featured articles. I encourage everyone to contribute to the current article, nominate articles, and vote on nominations in order to increase the activity and success of this article improvement drive back to its previous level. Timpcrk87 02:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Nominations wanted - The article improvement drive is currently without a single nomination. Suggestions of needy articles are welcome. Oldelpaso 14:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I've created a category entitled People who died before the age of 50, and I think it would be useful in football-personnel articles. As I mentioned on the category's talk page, I perceive 50 as being a young age at which to pop your clogs, especially when, in the world of the beautiful game, some individuals ( Stanley Matthews, for example) have played past that age. - Dudesleeper · Talk 07:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed that some people put a former player's position to be Manager (former Midfielder), for example, in the infoboxes. My view is that position refers to the position they played in, and if they are currently a manager of a club, then that can go in the club number bit of the box. Am tempted to just change a couple that I've spotted just now, but thought this might be worth wider discussion and a consensus on how to deal with this. WikiGull 21:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Really small (perhaps pointless?) thing, but some players (Cesc Fàbregas is a good example) who come from clubs such as Barcelona have Barça B/C under their youth section and in the main article, when of course they never actually played for the B team. So should under youth teams be either: A general "FC Barcelona Youth System", the actual youth section they got to at the club (for Cesc: "FC Barcelona Cadete A"), or something like "La Masia". The same applies for the Barça B/C pages, under famous players they mention players who have never (or not yet) played for B/C, should there be a general Barcelona (and other teams) Youth section which goes (in Barcelona's case) from Infantil A/B to Barça B. Cheers, Fran 5 March 2007
There is an ongoing dispute at the above articles. The dispute centers around the first Copa del Rey in 1902 and whether it should be included as an Athletic Bilbao win. Myself and another editor User: Deibid believe that it should be. However a third editor User: BarcelonaMarc is constantly reediting the articles to reflect differently. The Copa was won by Club Vizcaya which is not disputed. However Club Vizcaya is not a separate club from Athletic, but rather an alternative name. Several clubs including FC Barcelona, Real Madrid, Real Sociedad and RCD Espanyol and Real Unión have won the Copa del Rey under different names. All trophies won under their various names are included in one list. So why should the Athletic record be different ?
Below is a timeline which explains the early history of Athletic. [2]
The 1902 Copa is included in Athletic’s own honours list [3] and the trophy is in their museum [4]. The eleven Club Vizcaya players who played in the final - L. Arana, E Careaga, P. Larranga, L. Silva, A. Arana, Goiri, Cazeaux, Astorquia, W. Dyer, R. Silva, W. Evans - are all included in an archive of former Athletic players [5].
I believe the above clearly shows that Club Vizcaya was simply a name used by Athletic Bilbao and is not a separate club. A similar situation occurred in 1909 when Real Sociedad used the name Club Ciclista. However User: BarcelonaMarc has chosen to ignore all this evidence. He argues that Club Vizcaya is a different club but offers no evidence to prove this. I do not believe BarcelonaMarc is acting objectively or that he can be considered as an independent. On his own user page he describes himself as an FC Barcelona fan. If the 1902 Copa is credited to Athletic then it would mean that Athletic and FC Barcelona share the amount of Copa wins. I believe that BarcelonaMarc must begrudge sharing and that is why he continues to revert edits. I would appreciate it if other editers could offer their opionions and/or help resolve this issue as it has been ongoing for sometime and BarcelonaMarc will not listen to reason. Djln-- Djln -- Djln 00:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The Copa del Rey is administered by the RFEF, isn't it? Then it follows we should follow their official classification (or else we break WP:OR and WP:SOAP). The article states (though without a reference yet) that the RFEF do not consider Vizcaya and Athletic to be the same club.
To me, it seems ridiculous to me that a club can claim to have won a trophy before it was officially established, so unless the RFEF have retroactively awarded the 1902 title to Athletic Bilbao, then it should be considered that of Vizcaya. Qwghlm 14:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Athletic Bilboa is the legitimate inheritor of the tradition of Club Vizcaya. They have a right to claim the title and a matching duty acknowledge their predecessor. aLii's solution, which clearly and simply lists the facts of the situation, works and is one that I've used more than once when writing about German clubs where this type of situation crops up frequently and is exacerbated by circumstance of traditional clubs playing under alternate identities in East Germany or under wartime conditions, for example. The irony is that this sort of thing adds colour to an article about a club and should go as an interesting tidbit rather than something to squabble over. Wiggy! 01:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Is it part of the Project now? I've seen several anons and at least one user adding flags in players/managers templates. — Lesfer (t/ c/ @) 03:36, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I imagine those involved with this project will be most aware if the topic has come up for discussion before. Is there any reason why starting a category for players who have won the Champions League would be a bad idea? Personally I'd find it useful, but thought I'd double check first. KeithD 10:46, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I just thought i'd bring up this minor problem with managerial statistics in managers articles. Should the format be "Games Won Lost Drawn" or "Games Won Drawn Lost". The argument for the GWLD layout is that soccerbase, the main provider of managerial stats, gives it out like this, so it is easier to update the stats. The argument for the GWDL layout is that it is the conventional way that is usually used. What do you guys think? -- Mattythewhite 16:23, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
A contributor to Liverpool F.C. recently added bold to the names of those players who have international caps in the squad list. My personal opinion is that the information is not particularly relevant, and that it makes the squad list look a mess, but it was suggested on the talk page maybe it could be taken here for discussion - I'd be interested in other people's opinions: perhaps this really is a desirable introduction into football team articles, communicating an important piece of information succinctly? Robotforaday 10:48, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I must confess, it was me that did it for Watford, because only a few Watford players have international caps. I didn't do it for Liverpool/Arsenal/Chelsea/Man U because most of their players are capped, so please decide amongst yourselves what to do. My idea is to do it for clubs of second tier or lower. as they will be a significant few. Cheers, к1иgf1$н£я5ω1fт 12:05, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh, just spotted something. Coventry have an international section with current players, so maybe that should be utilised. It looks good, and doesn't clutter the article. I vouch for that. к1иgf1$н£я5ω1fт 12:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
It looks ugly in my opinion and not particularly useful, particularly given the Fowler example above. I'd get rid of it for consistency's sake. Qwghlm 12:14, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Remove it all. I don't really see the point in including it. – Elisson • T • C • 15:15, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
The article on Tinsley Lindley states "he scored 15 international goals in just 13 games" which is supported by his profile at www.englandfootballonline.com [8]
His profile at www.englandfc.com [9] credits him with 14 goals in 13 appearances.
Finally, TheFA.com gives his record as 13 goals from 13 games. [10]
Can anyone supply a definitive answer?
I have raised a similar query on the talk page for the article 1885-86 in English football about one of the "missing goals" Daemonic Kangaroo 14:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I have one question for you, as you are my fellow WikiProject colleagues :), shouldn't "USSR national football team" and related FIFA World Cup templates be renamed to "Soviet Union" form? We already use United States instead of U.S. or USA. I have alredy contacted native Russian users and they are rather in favour of "Soviet Union" form. Thank you. - Darwinek 20:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
This morning the article was moved to association football, along with a few related articles, claiming "majority concensus". While I am involved in the conflict wanting the article to stay, I have failed to see any such consensus, and I moved those articles back just now. Either way, this needs much broader input from experienced football editors, so please, give your opinion on the matter at Talk:Football (soccer). – Elisson • T • C • 18:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello all. Having successfully driven three articles over at Wikiproject:Cricket to featured status over the past couple of months, Dweller and I are turning our attentions to our home clubs, starting with Ipswich Town F.C. and then onto Norwich City F.C..
Naturally, we don't own the pages so we'd like to encourage as many people as possible who have a passing interest in pushing an article to WP:FA or in the clubs themselves to get involved. Typically, this process will start with me slapping a few dozen citation needed tags on all uncited "facts". It will make the article appear unsightly in the interim, but it is a very useful way of picking off original research.
While I realise there is a Article Improvement Drive already in play here in the project, I'd still like to encourage others to join in on this mini-version.
Please feel free to contact me or Dweller if you'd like to contribute to the drive or, better still, just get in there. The Rambling Man 11:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
There’s a degree of disagreement—nothing like an edit war: only reasonable editors are involved!—here over how much credence to give to to the theory that the root cause was diamond smuggling. The theory seems plausible but also surprising and surprisingly single-sourced and undebated elsewhere. All knowledgable contributions welcomed. (And I will be very happy to leave the debate to people better versed in football history!) — Ian Spackman 14:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Could people please give their thoughts on whether the hide option should be added to Template:National squad. There's been a lot of discussion on whether these cause clutter, particularly given that they're likely to increase (e.g. Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2007_March_8#All_national_team_Squad_TP_other_than_World_Cup), and someone suggested the idea of adding the hide option. I had a go User:ArtVandelay13/squadstest which seems to work fairly well, it won't break the existing templates were it changed over, and the only visual changes are pretty minor. No-one objected when I mentioned it on the Tfd page, but when I tried to change it it was reverted and locked, so I'm putting it to the wider community. Any ideas?
Comparison:
ArtVandelay13 15:03, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with deleting them, as they are attractive and informative as well as providing links to a lot of other articles. I say keep and add the hide option. к1иgf1$н£я5ω1fт 11:33, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
This is rather process-wonkish of me, but can an admin move Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Manchester United to Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Manchester United F.C. over the redirect? Thanks. Oldelpaso 19:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Why is it editors from england are so eager to add negative information, like diving, to articles of non-english players, but wont add any diving behaviour to the articles of english players. Steven Gerrard being an obvious example (diving in the champions leaugue final, several matches in the pl and against hungary come to mind). No mentioning of diving on Joe Cole and Wayne Rooney either. Yet I always see edits from english ip's adding diving behaviour to the articles of CRonaldo, Drogba or Robben regularly. 85.187.30.2 15:09, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I realize that he isn't the biggest star of English football, but he is the current leading scorer in the Conference National, and his rise to the level he is at is quite remarkable. However, it's difficult for me to find much information regarding his career before Dagenham & Redbridge, and I can't find any biographical information either. If anyone could assist in making this article more complete, it would be appreciated. Che84 18:47, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Today, User:SndrAndrss10 added 2000 and 2004 Euro Championship squad templates for Boudewijn Zenden. Now, I'm sure I remember there being consensus to get rid of these things- are am I just being hopelessly optimistic? Robotforaday 20:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous user constantly has been changing the WP:FOOTBALL redirect to point to the american football wikiproject. At this point, I'm not sure what do as it seems that the redirect was first used in this Wikiproject. // Laughing Man 16:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I'd be grateful for some input. User:Alii h has made some fairly radical edits which in my view helped the article. Unfortunately they have also annoyed a few previous contributors with their boldness, including I confess myself initially. An edit war is in danger; what we really need is some football-savvy input at Talk:Johan Cruijff#aLii's improvements to the article. Can you spare a few minutes to have a look? Thank you in advance. -- Guinnog 20:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Article has no "importance" rating. I'd also invite a member to reconsider the current "B" quality rating. Finally, the article's almost finished at peer review and will shortly be heading to WP:FAC. Tweaks, criticisms and suggestions from you, the people who understand the game are most welcome. Thanks. -- Dweller 18:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
It's a nice article, well constructed, nice layout of images and decent prose. It would also be nice to have an FA of another team from below the top division (I think the only other one is Sheffield Wednesday), so I'll definately support it when the FAC comes round. к1иgf1$н£я5ω1fт 16:30, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I am seeking assistance from people knowledgeable about the criteria used to determine whether English soccer clubs are notable. We are looking to develop something for for the various codes of football notable in Australia and we are looking to use that as a possible model. Capitalistroadster 02:25, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to discuss the abbreviation SAFC, which has wider implications for abbreviations of football teams in general. My opinion is that if a team is notable enough to appear in Wikipedia, it is also notable to have its abbreviated form appear on a disambiguation page, assuming that the abbreviated form is actually used anywhere in the outside world. Surely a redirect should only be used where there is only one entity to take that abbreviated form?
To that end, I made SAFC a disambig page, pointing to both Sunderland A.F.C.. and Stirling Albion F.C.. But it keeps being reverted back to a redirect to Sunderland A.F.C. only. Having reverted it twice myself, I would rather get a consensus here than enter into an edit war. I did mention it on the Sunderland A.F.C. talk page but it only generated one response.
I completely accept that Sunderland are more notable than Stirling Albion, but Stirling Albion can be abbreviated to SAFC - see here - so surely they should be included? Thoughts anyone? -- Jameboy 09:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks everyone for all the comments and help so far. Just wondered if there is now a need to create the page S.A.F.C. as a redirect to SAFC? Thanks. -- Jameboy 13:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I need some help in dealing with User:Nadia Kittel who persists in making poor edits to this page and various others. This has been an on-going problem that has included posting of spam external links, deletion of external English-language links, posting of unsourced images, posting of incorrect material, and one petty edit after another, all wrapped up in a refusal in anyway to respond to entries on his talk page or the talk pages of the articles he edits. He's also demonstrated a gift for bizarre formating turning simple lists into unmanageable columns and at one point he had the BFC page looking like this: [12] and its been an on-going struggle to keep the article from being turned into a fan page, hoolgan/Ultras central, or shrine to the former DDR. He won't respond to posts in English or his native German from any other editor and has often deleted or immediately archived talk items that don't suit him. Doesn't think twice about carrying on under various IPs. He's overwritten image files with his own inaccurate versions. He's dumped material copy edited for correct English for his own poorly translated stuff (if anyone can make out the caption to the Mielke picture currently posted, you deserve a prize).
I've posted looking for help elsewhere, but am not getting anywhere (i.e. no responses in general forums) so I'm hoping I can find other editors or an admin with an interest in football who may be better motivated to help bring this guy around or lay a block on him (he's been blocked before for his unfriendly approach). I'd rather be back at creating new articles or editing existing stuff to help improve things, but instead I'm sucked into a stupid edit war and will end up taking a bullet for it sooner or later. We're down now to stuff that's more trivial in nature than where it was weeks ago, but I'm tired of the guy's months-long pattern of obnoxious behavior. And frustrated. Help! Wiggy! 17:18, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey, thanks to all who contributed and suggested, Ipswich Town F.C. is now a featured article, making it only the sixth English club article to reach this status, and only the second outside the top flight. Hurrah. The Rambling Man 07:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
There appears to be significant crossover between the articles Local derbies in the United Kingdom and List of football (soccer) rivalries. Can these be merged or somehow restructured to prevent duplication? -- Jameboy 11:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Whatever happens, the article Local derbies in the United Kingdom cannot just simply be merged with List of football (soccer) rivalries as the UK derbies list is about differing sports, such as football, rugby league, rugby union, cricket and hockey. And not just football. Tangerines 15:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Should a player who was signed for some club, but have never played for it, categorized as a player of this club? MaxSem 08:59, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes - Andy Webster, for example, could rightly be described as a Rangers player - therefore players such as him should be included in these categories. Archibald99 16:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I know this is a really minor point but I figured I'd bring it up anyway. I've noticed that on a lot of football pages, editors have put things like "So-And-So F.C. were Champions of the Such-And-Such League in 1983" - is there a reason for the use of a capital C on "Champions"? it's not like it's a proper noun..... ChrisTheDude 13:13, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps someone could take a look at this new article List of "D" Football Squads, please? Means nothing to me I'm afraid. (Though I see its just been put up for a speedy so you may have to be quick!) TerriersFan 03:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Would you guys please add your opinions in here? — Lesfer (t/ c/ @) 16:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm surprised we don't have an article on this already. Does anyone object?-- Ioshus (talk) 14:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Several articles, including Pele, Maradona and Johan Cruijff claim that they are "regarded by many as one of the greatest footballers of all time". The same claim has been in the George Best article. Recently a few editors (who I suspect are the same person) have been removing this from the Best article. The claim is well referenced in the Best article, with referenced quotes from Pele, Maradona and others.
What are people's opinions on this? Stu ’Bout ye! 12:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Stubacca I am afraid you are a bit biased. The 'references' you have are feeble at best and so is your allegation that one individual is haunting you. This label "regarded by many as one of the greatest footballers of all time" should be used very carefully. Pele, Maradona and Cruyff are worthy of that label + perhaps a few more (should be researched). Many other splinter groups may feel their favorite footballer deserves that accolade as well, but one should remain very careful. I believe Zinedine Zidane and Michel Platini belong there, but I want more evidence before I would edit. The Best fans are such a splinter group.
1. A British interviewer has recorded that Maradona has said that George Best was his idol. This may be true - only one source though and it was a quote embedded in a story. I have heard Maradona talk about Best, but more in a sense that he could identify himself with the maverick, self destruction, and absolute football talent (that Best certainly had) married into one. Also 2. Pele mentions George Best in his list of 125 greatest living footballers, a list that his received a lot criticism for politically correct picking etc (am not saying that Best shouldn't be on that list - I think he should be) 3. From time to time, exclusively in British media it seems, one sees this hearsay quote from Pele where he endorses Best as the greatest footballer ever. Not only is this a poorly sourced quote it is very probably not even true and he has never said words to that effect or meant it in that way - blown out of context. Pele mentions Best merely twice in his autobiography, both mentions are drink-related but he does describe him as a 'Latin footballer'. 4. In numerous all time polls FIFA, IFFHS, France Football etc etc Best consistently does not even make the top 10.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Le Professeur70 ( talk • contribs)
Would you support the claim being removed in all of the articles it is in? I disagree that the Pele quote should be removed. A link to the actual interview would be preferable, but the BBC has to be one of the most reliable sources available. Their editorial policy is published and explicitly mentions fact checking. Stu ’Bout ye! 15:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
By that reasoning you could call any source unreliable! The BBC reference is reliable secondary source I feel. I can't see anything in the policy to say otherwise.
On the subject of stating anyone is the greatest, my feeling is all of these claims should be removed. Anyone else agree? Stu ’Bout ye! 09:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm happy with that, I've edited the article accordingly. Thanks for your advice. I'll wait to see if there is any further input on the other "greatest" claims. Stu ’Bout ye! 10:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I've removed these kind of claims from several different articles over the last few days. A rele vant section from WP:NPOV:
A simple formulation
Alternatively: assert facts, including facts about opinions — but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can.
By value or opinion, on the other hand, we mean "a piece of information about which there is some dispute." There are bound to be borderline cases where we are not sure if we should take a particular dispute seriously; but there are many propositions that very clearly express values or opinions. That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion. That the Beatles were the greatest band in history is a value or opinion. That the United States was wrong to drop the atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a value or opinion.
On the subjuct of Best's article, I don't think it is in that bad a shape. Certainly the section of his footballing career needs expanding though. His "celebrity", alcoholism, illness and death are - unfortunately - notable, and a big part of why he was so well known. One the footballing sections are expanded the focus/emphasis on the these sections won't be as strong. Stu ’Bout ye! 13:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Pele, Maradona, Johan Cruijff, Best, etc are regarded by many as some of the greatest players of all time. If it can be vertified then keep the information in the article. It isn't POV for two reasons 1) the word "regarded" 2) the phrase "one of the".
None of the articles say for example; "X player is the greatest of all time" (as there is no way to really prove who is the #1 greatest of all time) but if they are widely regarded (and citations can be provided) to be one of the greatest, then keep it in there. - Deathrocker 12:33, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Stubacca's changes. Claims are okay if and only if attributed. "John Doe is the best flute player<ref>[2007 FooBar internet poll]</ref>" is not acceptable, but "John Doe is the best flute player according to a 2007 FooBar internet poll" is. — Quarl ( talk) 2007-03-15 17:16Z
There is constant reversion backwards and forwards between these or similar phrases in the opening paragraph. The article cited demonstrates that in an on-line poll to register preferences for the greatest player of the 20th century, Maradona received not only the greatest number of votes, but an absolute majority. Such a poll is unrepresentative, and open to block voting, and I would not be infavour of a comment saying that "most football fans consider him to be the greatest", but it does prove that many count him as the best. Although "many" is obviously non-specific, I would contend that it is less mealy-mouthed than "widely held". Likewise, it is verifiable that many have registered a preference for him as the best, wheras to say that he is "among the best" invites the question "the best what? The best 3? the best 20? the best 500?". Thus to say merely that he is "among the best" is to damn with faint praise, and to underestimate the esteem in which this player's ability is held. (I make no comment as to his character, except to suggest that it may have lead a significant number of people to be unwilling to give the recognition they might otherwise have done to his talent). Thus I propose that the first phrase in the heading of this section remain, but look forward to lively debate of the matter. Kevin McE 20:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- See the discussion I started at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#"Greatest" claims in several football articles. and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football#"Greatest" claims. Stu ’Bout ye! 08:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Your position seems to be founded largely on WP:WEASEL: the top of that article reads This page in a nutshell: Avoid "some people say" statements without sources. My whole point is that here there is a source, and the source, an authoritative and relevant worldwide body, reports that a majority of those participating in a widely promoted poll say not only that he is "among the best" (which I would contend is a weasel phrase, for reasons stated above), but that he is "the best. Kevin McE 20:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Stubacca's changes. Claims are okay if and only if attributed. "John Doe is the best flute player<ref>[2007 FooBar internet poll]</ref>" is not acceptable, but "John Doe is the best flute player according to a 2007 FooBar internet poll" is. — Quarl ( talk) 2007-03-15 17:16Z
- I cannot see that a claim is any less attributed by virtue of being in the footnote than in the text, and the brevity desirable in a lead paragraph weighs against such detail in the opening sentence of an article. Kevin McE 20:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- This isn't about whether it's in the footnote or not. The problem is an internet poll is not a reliable source. It's not even a secondary source. You can't say "Donatello is the world's favorite Ninja Turtle [13]". I'm not saying that Donatello isn't widely regarded as the best Ninja Turtle; I'm saying that an internet poll doesn't prove this, and if this claim is challenged, then it should be removed until it is supported by references. What is supported by the reference is "Readers of Slashdot voted that their favorite Ninja Turtle is Donatello [14]". Unfortunately for Donatello fans, that statement sounds wimpier; too bad, find a better reference to back up the original claim. That's WP:ATT for you - the onus is on the person trying to add/keep a statement, not the person challenging it. WP:ATT trumps concerns about the brevity of the lede paragraph. If "Foo says Bar is the best" is a crappy sentence, then remove it altogether; it doesn't mean you're free to write "Bar is the best." Can I give you more examples? "Americans prefer Rudy Giuliani to Hilary Clinton as 2008 president [15]" versus "According to a 2006 American Research Group poll, ..."; "Jeff Bezos was the most influential person of 1999" versus "TIME magazine considered Jeff Bezoes the most influential person of 1999." — Quarl ( talk) 2007-03-16 07:01Z
Stu ’Bout ye! 09:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Not exactly following but I will try to conform an edit to what I think you're saying. Ronnymexico 14:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I removed it from the heading and placed the statement and attribution under the "honors" section, which I think is probably more appropriate. I tend to question the worthiness of Cantona's opinion of Maradona v. Pele, particularly iat the top of the Maradona article, but that's neither here nor there. Ronnymexico 15:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
![]() | → Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Marlon.sahetapy |
I've been doing some expansion work on Corinthian F.C., and I noticed that, although their adult side folded, they appear to still field teams at youth levels - should they therefore be included in Category:Defunct English football clubs? The club itself isn't technically defunct, but its adult 11-a-side team is. Any thoughts....? ChrisTheDude 08:32, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
As one of the users that helped to piece together the readily available information about Pelé's total number of goals, it has come to my attention that there is a minor edit war brewing on the article over the number of goals that should be displayed in the infobox. On one hand there is a case for stating the games (goals) for his Santos career as 193 (119), which is the sum total for national league-based competitions. The other argument is that the regional league, the Campeonato Paulista, should be counted, bringing the total to 605 (589). Further details on his career stats breakdown can be seen at Pelé#Goalscoring and appearance record.
The infobox footnote states: Senior club appearances and goals counted for the domestic league only.
I doubt that Pelé's circumstances were in mind when the infobox footnote was formulated, so what does everyone think? aLii 13:03, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Before Campeonato Brasileiro (1971-on) there was Torneio Roberto Gomes Pedrosa (1967-1970) and Torneio Rio-São Paulo -- which from 1950 until 1966 had a national-level status. But Campeonato Paulista have never had a "national" status. It's merely a state-level competition. What if people begin adding every apps and gols from every domestic league in Brazil? The structure of Brazilian football is pretty much based on the English one (not THAT much divisions lol) as were English descendants Charles Miller and Oscar Box who brought football to Brazil. — Lesfer (t/ c/ @) 16:53, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I'd appreciate it if someone using a browser other than Firefox wouldn't mind comparing the appearances/goals section here and here and letting me know if the former looks right in their browser. I'm puzzled and slightly frustrated by the anonymous editor's ~3,000 contributions. - Dudesleeper · Talk 17:23, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I created this article a while back now, but I seem to be the only one contributing to it. Just thought I'd make you guys aware of its existence, and hopefully get you to make some contributions. I feel it could be a featured article. Cheers. GiantSnowman 13:16, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I thinking of getting MiszaBot to archive this talk page automatically when topics have had no discussion for a while (two weeks? a month?). While I don't anticipate any objections, I thought I'd check first. Oldelpaso 09:41, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I think putting discussion on proper pages is more important. Notability should be used. Matthew_hk t c 10:20, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Someone put a page I made about my local side up for speedy deletaion, and it got deleted. I however feel this was unfairly justified.
Clubs in the Scottish Amateur League(Lowland clubs usually) are allowed pages.
If I followed the criteria from here, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Notability it says your club is "Probably Notable" if you have supplied a player to a national side, wait we have - Andy Gray, albeit that he didn't get chosen until he was at Dundee United. And alot of clubs in Scotland have never supplied a player to the National side, I ask how many players for East Stiringshire have gone on to supply a player for the national side, same with Gretna, same with Elgin.
Another point that is made is the 10+caps rule. 10+ Caps, nail on the head there, how many caps did Andy Gray win? 100+ appearence for a club? he made over 100 appearences for two top level clubs. He played for in all 7 premier divison sides of their respected nations, winning the Cup Winners Cup with one of them, Everton.
Oh another one, clubs, who don't normally charge an entrance fee for spectators, i'll have you know that you do need to pay to get in to a Back Fc game, who do you think we are, a school side?
Also why do England get to have pages for clubs from the first 8 divisons of football? I'm sure the Amateur seen is probably in the top 6 of the Scottish divisons.
Well since you deleted the page, I demand that these club pages should be deleted too since they play at the EXACT same level, except in a different region, but no, I don't see anyone rushing to delete these pages.
St Patrick's Former Pupils F.C. Oban Saints F.C. Eaglesham Amateur F.C.
And all the clubs playing in this league, Central Scottish Amateur Football League and this league Kingdom Caledonian Football League. They all play at the exact same level, and all the clubs are registered with the Scottish Amateur Football Association
Its discrimination against my club I reckon.
So can someone please explain to me why the page got deleted.
Allanmac9 02:07, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought members of the project might like to respond to this question on the Motherwell F.C. talk page. Archibald99 23:19, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Both these pages appear to be a bit of a mess with dead links, multiple links, numerous unverified sources and lists of unverified groups. Both pages are full of alleged ultras groups, many of which are not verified. And it just seems that groups keep getting added without being checked. For instance, in one of the list of groups, a German club - FC Berliner Dynamo has numerous entries. Yet when checked, they all just seem to be links to fan websites, and nothing to do with ultras.
Also, some of the content is more relevant to the pages about football hooliganism, which whilst a similar area is a different subject. I would like to try and work on both the pages to see if they can be made more appropriate for wikipedia and to also then maybe get the idea tp merge the List of ultras groups into the Ultras page finally sorted (At present it would probably make the pages even worse to merge them). It wouldn't be an overnight task as it would take a while to get everything sorted. Would it be in order to make a start on this? Thanks Tangerines 16:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I have tidied up the Ultras article, including deleting all the groups listed that were not verified. The article Hooligan firm has clear guidelines for adding a firm - that there must be a reliable, verified source naming the firm, with a note included on the list stating as such. I have used this same guideline for the groups list on the Ultras page. There were also numerous links to discussion forums, dead links and completely irrelevant links. And especially on the list of German groups, much of the so called "Groups" were just links to Fan pages, news articles, hooligan articles - basically anything but Ultra groups. What will be needed now with that page though is to verify much of the content of the article. Which is what I propose to do next.
However, the article, List of ultras groups is also a total mess in a similar way. Groups just seem to be added without any thought. And it is further confused as the talk page for the article - Talk:List of ultras groups contains no discussion and only contains yet another a list of groups which just seems to have been transposed from the list (as it was previously) on the Ultras article. If this is left as it is, then no doubt some will continue to add to both the talk page and the main page. Which makes no sense then of having a talk page on that article. I am going through the same process again of deleting any unverified groups - this time on both the main page and the talk page. However, I also would suggest that the talk page has the list removed as it is redundant and is also not discussion. Then the talk page can be used for what it is intended, and discussion can take place about merging it into the Ultras article. I hope all this makes sense, but to be honest the pages are confusing and a mess anyway. Would this be in order? Tangerines 13:15, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I would strongly support the deletion of list of ultras groups, as an indiscriminate list turned total mess. I could provide a precedence, but as per WP:BEANS I won't. Punkmorten 20:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
If you take a look at the List of ultras groups article now it is no longer a total mess, andc certainly no longer indiscriminate. I have deleted every single group that was not verified on both the talk page and the main page. And over the course of the next few days I intend to amalgamate the two lists from that page into one. And then to see about merging that page into the Ultras page where it can also be regularly checked. Tangerines 21:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Over the last couple of weeks I have worked on these two articles. Both Ultras and List of ultras groups now contain exactly the same list of groups. Originally there were three lists (including one on the talk page of List of ultras groups) with all sorts of different groups. I have now gone through all three lists, removing the talk page list, leaving just the two lists which are now identical. I have removed all unsourced groups, and groups that either are clearly not Ultras, or who it seems are not ultras, that there is reasonable doubt as to them being ultras, such as general fan sites and some that were clearly only hooligan firms. I have moved all South American groups to Torcida (Brazilian groups) and Barra brava (all other South American groups). And a note added to state that all South American groups should be added to either of these two articles only. Also, where a country has a large number of groups (such as Germany), I have tidied the list up, so as not to be one very long list of groups for that country. Since doing this, I have maintained both articles and checked every single addition, and ensured that if a group is added to the ultras article, it is also added to the List of ultras groups article.
I have also started to work on the Ultras article to give it a more balanced look, to make it a NPOV article, to get sources and to expand discussion of how the ultra culture differs from country to country, with groups in some countries having a hooligan element and nature to the group, and ultras in other countries being officially recognised (by the club they support) fan groups who focus solely on tifo displays and match day support.
Looking at both articles now though, would it now be more appropriate for the the article List of ultras groups to be deleted as the list is identical to the list in the one article, Ultras? Especially bearing in mind that I have added a note stating that a group should only be added if it is referenced with a fully verifiable source, and so it should not fall back into a massive list of unverified groups as the three previous lists appeared to be. If it is thought that the List of ultras groups article should now be deleted now, perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me could look into how that process would begin? Thank you ♦Tangerines BFC ♦· Talk 15:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought you might like to know that I've nominated a Category for renaming. Please see Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_April_12#Category:Wikipedians_who_support_F.C._Copenhagen. -- Dweller 13:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
An edit war has been taking place over the last few days, revolving around Shevvy's birthplace. Should it be the USSR, or the supposedly "generally accepted" Ukraine, even though it didn't exist as a country at the time of his birth? Any assistance would be appreciated. - Dudesleeper · Talk 10:25, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
There have been various TFD discussions regarding the national squad templates, and there has been no real consistency to the results either. I've listed them below (shamelessly swiped from a comment in the most recent discussion) for everyone's reference.
So, the results have been all over the place, tending towards keep recently, against precedents previously set. Personally, I think that a link to a team's roster page for a particular tournament on a player's page is sufficient for our purposes here. See Yoshikatsu Kawaguchi#National team for one example.
But regardless of my opinion on the outcome, I think we need to standardize the rules for inclusion of a national team template on a player's page first. AFAIK, World Cup teams are widely accepted, so I've left them off the list below. I'd like to see what kind of concensus is building towards the rest of these, though. So, please add keep or delete to each section. If concensus is to delete some of these, then, the next step is to work on a standard way to link to rosters from athlete pages. The Kawaguchi example is just one suggestion; but, there is no sense in clouding up the discussion on whether the templates belong or not with details on how to replace the information they contain. Neier 13:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I would rather be rid of them all. At the very least, they should be reformatted so that we can combine multiple squads into a single box like I proposed some time ago. Qwghlm 23:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
That's is
I can only repeat my comments earlier at Euro_Championship_templates - the present situation is a mess, and the templates clutter up the articles they get attached to. Ultimately, however, I think this debate will never be resolved and these b####y templates are here to stay. Daemonic Kangaroo 05:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Why not have a "current squad" template (like we have for club teams) and delete the rest? Or has this been ruled out before? Kanaye 16:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Template:Macedonia squad ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) a current squad TP. Matthew_hk t c 16:56, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
FWIW, I noticed Macedonia myself, and then when I came here to pick up the link for the deletion discussion, I also spotted your addition of the Ghana squad. Feel free to express your opinions on those discussions. Neier 08:00, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Allo all, I may not be the only one in thinking that the current football league template lacks a bit of style and information and could do with a revamping, so, I was going to propose that something got under way to standardising it to a different one, I was going to suggest one like that here. Please get back to me with your thoughts. Cintrianex 11:16, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking about the idea of creating an article for a list of Premier League players. It could list players who have made 200+ appearences or something along those lines? Tell me what you guys think. Thanks, Mattythewhite 17:29, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Name | Date of birth | Nat | Apps | Goals | Teams | Years |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Gary Speed | 8 September, 1969 |
![]() |
516 | 78 |
Leeds Everton Newcastle United Bolton Wanderers |
I've just come up with this. Listing all of the teams takes up a lot of space, and should the years account for all their time at that club or just in the Premier League? Mattythewhite 18:25, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Name | Date of birth | Nat | Apps | Goals | Premier League Clubs | Years |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Gary Speed | September 7, 1969 |
![]() |
516 | 78 | Leeds, Everton, Newcastle, Bolton | 1992- |
So, is the years going by when they made their début? Mattythewhite 18:58, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Hows about this:
Name | Nationality | Position | Appearences | Goals | Premier League Clubs | Years |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Gary Speed |
![]() |
MF | 516 | 78 | Leeds, Everton, Newcastle, Bolton | 1992- |
Mattythewhite 19:17, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Looks fine. There is a
flagcountry template for the nation field.
ArtVandelay13
19:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Name | Nationality | Position | Apps | Goals | Premier League Clubs | Years |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Gary Speed |
![]() |
MF | 516 | 78 | Leeds, Everton, Newcastle, Bolton | 1992- |
Got it back to Apps, looks a lot better. Mattythewhite 19:41, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I've got the article created at List of Premier League players. I've got the criteria at 300+ apps - I think all the way down to 200 is possibly too many, and I couldn't really be bothered to do much more. Mattythewhite 12:01, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Also, should current Premier League players be put in bold? And maybe current no longer Premier League players put in italics? Mattythewhite 19:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I've created a WikiProject on Irish football for anyone who is interested in participating or helping out. Danny Invincible Talk| Edits 18:27, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
The Brazilian biographies have become very large, and I've proposed some sub-types. Please comment there if you've a view on the most useful way of doing this. Alai 21:50, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please back me up on the AC Milan article. An editor called Jadger has made a number of bias and unwaranted edits to the article. Basically he states that Milan are best known for Corruption. ANyways, the guy obviously has a bone to grind as he appears to be a Munich fan. Could someone please help me and keep an eye on this article ? Niall123 11:16, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, I was surprised when I read the AC Milan article had no mention of the scandal, so I decided to add it. I agree my wording wasn't exactly the nicest to AC Milan fans, but I agree with the rewording Tangerine used. I think it is a worthy thing to add to the article, after all, can anyone name another G-14 club that has been involved in as many match-fixing scandals?
-- Jadger 17:53, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to add about the above, whilst the scandal is mentioned in more detail in the History section on AC Milan, that is a seperate page. And the main page as it was set out previously, had no mention at all of this. In my opinion there needs to be a short NPOV mention of this in the lead. There is surely a compromise between the two views on this, which is to have it more or less as it is now, with it mentioned briefly as I have tried to amend it to, in the lead. ♦Tangerines BFC ♦· Talk 18:02, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
oldelpaso, that is one occurence between those two teams, whereas AC Milan has been caught twice, God knows how many other times they have done it. I asked if there were any G-14 teams that had been caught as many times as AC Milan.
-- Jadger 18:06, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that the only problem on the match-fixing allegations in the history articles is that it should have a less colloquial style. I mean, Milan drew with many underdogs in matches the should have won, and before they realized it, they were out of the Serie A favourites to win the league title. is not really encyclopedical. CapPixel 09:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi all. I'm having a problem with an anon editor User:62.77.178.117 who keeps changing the placing of the place of birth in Roddy Collins. I don't understand the edit comments about as it's in the infobox it shouldn't be in the text, and then putting in the text next to date of birth. According to the template it should be outside of the date of birth bracket (I have tried pointing the editor to the template page and inviting discussion via my talk page, but s/he communicates via edit comments only), so that's what I've done - I know there are many pages that don't comply with the template, but I try to correct them as I edit for other reasons. Any thoughts on this problem appreciated. It's not a major issue, but what's the point in templates if we don't need to stick to them? WikiGull 09:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Can someone take a look at this? I originally DB-BIO'd it but on reflection I actually don't know enough about the criteria we place on notable sportsmen - do we find schoolboys notable even if they play for the under-15s side of a large club? -- Fredrick day 11:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
No, player must be professional, e.g. play in the first team. Article should be deleted. Mattythewhite 11:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I know that I cleaning out my watchlist and started all over again, I add myself to the participants list, so I want to know what the club articles (or stubs) are needed to be contributed/editing, so contact me anytime and I will help improving the article... Rakuten06 14:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I reverted his absolutely bogus addition to FC Spartak Moscow, but I'm unfaminliar with subjects of other articles he edits as they're related to Iranian football. Could someone inspect his contribs for more factual errors? MaxSem 18:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
There are currently 9 articles listed at WP:MWA#Football that might be of interest to this project. -- Sapphic 20:10, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
There are two articles on seperate footballers called David McNiven - one original and one I created today. I think that David McNiven should be a disambig page, but I am stuck for rename titles: maybe David McNiven (footballer born 1978) and David McNiven (footballer born 1955). Any thoughts/help? Much appreciated, GiantSnowman 20:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
EDIT: I think they may be related - the elder one was playing for Leeds in 1978, and the younger one was born in Leeds in 1978...can anyone support this hunch? GiantSnowman 20:26, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I have moved David McNiven (footballer) to David McNiven (footballer born 1955) and fixed what few pages linked to the old page GiantSnowman 20:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I think this article should be expanded to include every player who has represented England, and not just, as is currently, players who have 25+ caps. Any thoughts/objections? GiantSnowman 20:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Name | Caps | Goals | Date of first cap | Opponents of first cap | Age at first cap | Date of last cap | Opponents of last cap | Age at last cap |
---|
I also think the table should be organised by date of first cap.
Any thoughts? GiantSnowman 15:00, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Number | Name | Date of birth | Caps | Goals | Date of first cap | Opponents of first cap | Venue of first cap | Date of last cap | Opponents of last cap |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | Robert Barker | June 19, 1847 | 1 | 0 | November 30, 1872 |
![]() |
Hamilton Crescent | ||
2 | Ernest Greenhalgh | August 22, 1848 | 2 | 0 | November 30, 1872 |
![]() |
Hamilton Crescent | March 8, 1873 |
![]() |
WikiGull 15:35, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
How about using flags for the opposition then? Adds more information to the table without the wideness problem. Have done it for the first 20 players as below
Let me know what you think - have it stored on a subuser page at the minute. Am happy for that to be the working page until it's a bit more detailed if that helps. WikiGull 16:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Can we reach a consensus on how football seasons are styled in WP articles?
In the article on the British Home Championship I edited the table and text to show seasons in the format 1983-84 but this has been reverted back to the style 1983- 1984.
I had thought that this was clearly stated somewhere in a Manual of Style but I must confess that these are inconsistent. Of the various style manuals listed on WikiProject_Football the only help given is at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Clubs#Achievements which gives the seasons in the format 3332–33, whereas Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Competitions#Past_tournaments.2Fwinners uses the format 3332/33; so no consensus there!
I have therefore had a look at the pages for some of the national leagues which have produced the following results.
England
Scotland
Italy
France
Germany
Spain
As you can see, the position in England and Italy is clear (fairly consistently using 2005-06) and Germany (2005/06), but in France, Scotland and Spain there is no consistency.
I know this subject has come up for discussion before here and briefly again here but neither debate was particularly conclusive nor were there exactly a large number of participants (6 in total over both discussions), so can we have a more lively debate so that a firm consensus can be arrived at and then incorporated into the manual of style?
My preference is clearly for the style 2005-06. Daemonic Kangaroo 18:42, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
In the same vein as Liverpool F.C. Reserves and Arsenal F.C. Reserves, would it be worth starting a Rangers version to trim some information from the main Rangers article? I feel I should ask for opinions on here first as there don't seem to be any similar articles outside the English Premiership. Archibald99 21:21, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Hey project dudes, a new page for you to critique if you'd be so kind. I have an open peer review for it here. As noted in the intro to the PR, I'd like this to be considered in a similar vein to English football champions, Danish football champions and Swedish football champions, all of which are already featured lists. Once again, thanks for you time. The Rambling Man 19:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I think it's fairly clear by now that we're deleting any players who have only played at Conference level or lower. I just wondered what everyone thought about various articles that I've discovered relating to specific conference seasons. These are: Conference National 2006-07 and Conference National Playoff Final 2003 2004, 2005 and 2006. They're all well written articles, but I was wondering whether, having established a clear cut-off point for players, we should also do so for various other articles about the game at this level? Thoughts? HornetMike 15:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
we have a problem with some slovak players
Is this article really a GA? I see no signs of it being reviewed and.. well... its not particularly that good. Mattythewhite 15:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Do we list current article/list candidates in that table? I couldn't find any, nor any spot to put them. Daniel Bryant 00:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I was surprised to see that forward redirected to striker, because the players whose positions I have listed as the former in the past definitely aren't strikers, in my opinion. I thought I'd mention the somewhat dusty discussion here. - Dudesleeper · Talk 11:11, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Hey, please, please add comments (and hopefully support!) to the nomination for promoting Italian football champions to featured list status. You can find the discussion here. Thanks for your time. The Rambling Man 16:30, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi gents
Inspired by our friends from East Anglia, I've spent the last couple of days working hard on the article on my club, Gillingham, adding references, editing the text, removing pointless stuff, and so on. I was wondering if people could take a look at it and see how close they think it now is to promotion to the dizzy heights of Good Article and beyond. I appreciate that I still need to correctly format all the refs with {{cite}} templates but I'll get to that shortly, I can't face it at the moment :-) But any other comments would be much appreciated!
Cheers!!
ChrisTheDude 21:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
"gents"? Is this only limited to male wikipedians then? (only kidding) ♦Tangerines BFC ♦· Talk 21:19, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I recommend you put it up for peer review. Looks like a very good job you've got done there so far. Mattythewhite 21:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to add a well done on that article, much better than a number of other English club articles in my opinion. ♦Tangerines BFC ♦· Talk 22:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
This might be more of a village pump question, but I thought I'd try here first. What's the score with using programme covers to illustrate articles on clubs, etc? As far as I can tell from looking at the various image tags, if they were to be classed as magazines then they could only be used to illustrate an article on the magazine itself and, let's face it, nobody's going to create Manchester United's programme. Alternatively if you cheat a bit and class them as event "posters" then they could only be used for articles on the specific event i.e. the match itself, which only works for a notable match like a final. So as far as I can see they can't be used in articles on clubs - am I right.....? ChrisTheDude 22:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
As the time approaches when we'll be making up end-of-season league tables, I thought I'd re-open this discussion from a few months back about creating a standard league table format. Any thoughts? HornetMike 00:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
User:Cintrianex has created some articles on the cups run by various lowly leagues, such as the Northern Counties East Football League Wilkinson Sword Trophy and even the West Riding County Amateur Football League Division Two Cup - are competitions like this really notable.......? ChrisTheDude 20:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with the current criteria of notability of athletes; more specifically that of youth footballers.
Notability meriting an article in Wikipedia seem to stipulate first team appearences.
I would suggest that:
1. Being a member of a youth international team (such as Gavin Hoyte, Fran Mérida and Nacer Barazite of Arsenal) merits notability in it's own right, or at least under under the criteria of athlete notability p2: "Competitors who have played or competed at the highest level in amateur sports" (or in analogy thereof).
2. Prominent members of important youth academies merits notability in the same way as above.
It can´t seriously be argued that a player who has made a couple of appearences for a League 2 team is more notable than a player such as Bojan Krkic, Giovani dos Santos, Fran Mérida etc wich most probably will be playing first team football (if not already be big stars) in just a few years. Look at the attention G. dos Santos' selection of national team or proposed transfer has attracted in the football community. Or look at Theo Walcott who was included in the english WC squad without having played for the Arsenal first team. He never played during the WC, so before his first team debut at Arsenal, was it only his appearences for Southampton in the Championship that merited an article about him? Surely not!
There are players in a youth international squad that may never turn professional, but at the same time there are players that with high probability (on the verge of certainty) will be first team players if not big stars. I'm not saying that membership of a youth national squad automatically constitutes notability. My point is that there are youth players that may haven't yet broken in to the first team at a big club such as Arsenal or Barcelona, but nevertheless still are more notable than a player that may have appeared for a low-level first team such as Accrington. The requirement of first team football shouldn't be carved in stone. BTW ""fran merida" arsenal" generated 44,100 hits on Google, ""robert grant" accrington" generated 294. Se [[==Prominent youth footballers==
I disagree with the current criteria of notability of athletes; more specifically that of youth footballers.
Notability meriting an article in Wikipedia seem to stipulate first team appearences.
I would suggest that:
1. Being a member of a youth international team (such as Gavin Hoyte, Fran Mérida and Nacer Barazite of Arsenal) merits notability in it's own right, or at least under under the criteria of athlete notability p2: "Competitors who have played or competed at the highest level in amateur sports" (or in analogy thereof).
2. Prominent members of important youth academies merits notability in the same way as above.
It can´t seriously be argued that a player who has made a couple of appearences for a League 2 team is more notable than a player such as Bojan Krkic, Giovani dos Santos, Fran Mérida etc wich most probably will be playing first team football (if not already be big stars) in just a few years. Look at the attention G. dos Santos' selection of national team or proposed transfer has attracted in the football community. Or look at Theo Walcott who was included in the english WC squad without having played for the Arsenal first team. He never played during the WC, so before his first team debut at Arsenal, was it only his appearences for Southampton in the Championship that merited an article about him? Surely not!
There are players in a youth international squad that may never turn professional, but at the same time there are players that with high probability (on the verge of certainty) will be first team players if not big stars. I'm not saying that membership of a youth national squad automatically constitutes notability. My point is that there are youth players that may haven't yet broken in to the first team at a big club such as Arsenal or Barcelona, but nevertheless still are more notable than a player that may have appeared for a low-level first team such as Accrington. The requirement of first team football shouldn't be carved in stone. BTW ""fran merida" arsenal" generated 44,100 hits on Google, ""robert grant" accrington" generated 294. See [ notability] talkpage for discussion. Sebisthlm 16:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Should we also consider including Good Article Candidates on the "Featured and good articles" section in the main WikiProject page? Currently on WP:GAC there are at least three football-related nominees ( Arjen Robben, Liverpool F.C. and U.S. Città di Palermo). -- Angelo 13:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
There is a sourced statement on the Rangers F.C. article saying Rangers are the most successful club in the world in terms of trophies won, but apparently Linfield F.C. have a claim to this, although there are doubts about whether or not some of Linfield's trophies are "first-class". Could a consensus be reached as to which is correct? WATP 20:08, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Is it the sort of thing that might be on the FIFA website? ♦Tangerines BFC ♦· Talk 21:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I'd appreciate it if someone with knowledge about image-use on Wikipedia could take a look at this. Something doesn't sit right with me about its fair use (especially since the person who uploaded it kicked up a fuss about its non-inclusion in Shearer's article). Thanks. - Dudesleeper · Talk 09:21, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/The Rambling Man (signed as a member of this Project under his previous name, Budgiekiller). Whichever way you choose to !vote, I would be glad if you would indicate your membership of this WikiProject. -- Dweller 16:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Something I learned yesterday that I thought is worth mentioning here. If an article has no references but was written from information at Soccerbase, Neil Brown's site, etc. (see Ian Gore, for example), we're supposed to put that URL in the references section, not the external links, per WP:Cite (All items used as sources in the article must be listed in the "References" or "Notes" section, and are not included in "Further reading" or "External links").
Some of you likely knew this. I didn't, however. - Dudesleeper · Talk 15:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I believe I have seen this problem commented on somewhere before, but just to heads-up and recruit if possible. There are currently countless articles with Wikilinks to the wrong Wembley (for instance, in [[1966]], [[England national football team|England]] won the [[FIFA World Cup 1966|World Cup]] at [[Wembley Stadium|Wembley]]. The correct reference is [[Wembley Stadium (1924)|Wembley]].
I have recently set about the task, and would urge those of you who don't get bored too easily to give us a hand! There are thousands to get through.
I go to this page, and click on one of the many links to articles supposedly to do with New Wembley. I then set up Internet Explorer to 'Find' [[Wembley Stadium, find next, and this shows me the reference. If it is retrospective (i.e. a record of what happened in the past at the old stadium), it needs changing to "(1924)". If it is predictive (i.e. a future event at the new stadium), it stays as 'New Wembley', if you see what I mean. I always leave an edit summary ("amend wembley reference") to guard against accusations of vandalism.
Any help would be appreciated. Best wishes. Refsworldlee (chew-fat) (eds) 21:11, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Some input from other parties required at Talk:Argentina_and_England_football_rivalry#Mocking_Photo_removed. Jooler 07:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Is it possible that the above article could be changed so that only registered users are allowed to edit? For a few days I have been working on the article as it has been a mess, and had clear bias, POV, weasel words etc. I have removed whole sections which were unsourced and replaced them with sourced information. I have also working on removing bias, POC etc. It is though a gradual process, but I am being hampered by what seems to be one anonymous user who keeps disrupting all this, and not be assisting, but by both adding vandalism (stating that Celtic FC fans are nazis for instance) and by deleting whole sections without reason and keeps adding words such as psychotic (spelt psycotic) to describe the English, Serbian and Germans, and also keeps adding stuff such as hyper-violent, manic, mentally unbalanced, pathetic etc etc to describe England.
I have tried to reason with the user to no avail. And each time I find the vandalism and change it, the user comes back again and does more. If the article is to be brought into some sort of order and be neutral then it would help if only registered users were allowed to edit. There are some sections which are bias and the user has my sympathy in that there in parts appears to be clear bias, but it is a work-in-progress. The user appears under a number of unregistered users - 86.29.251.56, 86.25.48.201, 86.25.50.25, 86.29.253.97, 86.29.255.209, 86.29.245.93 - all of which appear to be the same user. Thanks ♦Tangerines BFC ♦· Talk 18:44, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I have recently been editing or creating articles about players or seasons from the Victorian era, when the concept of 4-4-2 etc. was unheard of. In those days, players played in positions such as "Centre-half" or "inside-left" and the standard formation was 2-3-5 i.e. 2 fullbacks (right and left), 3 half-backs (right, left and centre) and 5 forwards (inside & outside right & left, plus centre-forward).
The article on Football (soccer) positions describes modern positions, but when writing about a Victorian centre-half, should this be linked to midfielder or to defender? (It should be somewhere in the middle.) Ideally, there should be an article explaining former positions and formations to which articles about the early days of football can be linked. Is there anyone out there who feels competent/knowledgeable to create this? Daemonic Kangaroo 12:42, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
User:Nadia Kittel has returned from his earlier ban as User:Fox53 to again agrandize his team's site, add fringe material, apply eccentric formatting, and insert poor quality or un-sourced images. He has removed informative image captions simply to make logo images bigger (also then taking them out of context), and continues to insert poor-quality unsourced images that don't really add anything to the article. As a matter of fact, he's taken to plastering the same poor quality image of the FDGB Pokal (East German Cup) all over any page representing a cup winner, despite the fact that historically there were multiple versions of the trophy - he can't be bothered to do any research or find anything better, even though its out there. He was also recently warned off using this approach in editing articles about the SS - but doesn't get it. Given his previous edit history this will likely shape up into another attempt to turn an encyclopedia article into a tribute page.
To his credit he did add a useful literature section and some other minor stuff, and did some decent work on German hockey teams, but still doesn't seem to understand that this is not a Dynamo/East Germany tribute site. And, oh yeah, check out his un-varnished opinion of me on his talk page. I'm tired of this guy's approach and have used up two R's at BFC today. Help, please! Wiggy! 19:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted to bring the above article to the attention of a wider audience. I can't help but feel there are obvious inclusions missing. - Dudesleeper · Talk 02:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if any one else has mentioned/suggested this, but why not condense each team's season-by-season history into decades, in the style used by the Baseball WikiProject for an individual MLB season ( example). Would perhaps make the pages more managable? Nightfreak 14:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
This edit seems to have created a massive amount of whiteyellow-space in the template. I don't want to straight-out revert the edits, as that would actually break some of the templates with the irish=yes bit, but could someone try and rectify the situation to remove the big empty space in it? Cheers,
Daniel Bryant
08:21, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
some editor made a nonsense article about a hoax manager [ here]. Please remove it. 80.58.205.35 14:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
The recent actions by SPUJ ( talk · contribs) raise an interesting question: should football articles list the current strip (with coloured shoulders etc. as appropriate for the current strip), or a general one with merely the colours (as shoulder designs etc. change frequently)? Thoughts appreciated. Daniel Bryant 12:55, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
FYI, SPUJ has been banned as a sockpuppet of blocked user Panairjdde (who, along with other sockpuppets like Kwame Nkrumah some of you might remember). But to chime in, if there are people who are willing to show more accurate depictions of the current kits, and keep them up (and there are many who are doing just that), then there really is no good reason to keep attempting to cut back the designs to main colours. Lexicon (talk) 20:23, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that minor trim details are arguably non encyclopedic. Football reference works will give the club colours for a given team in simplified form. So should we. -- Dweller 10:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I personally think the kits should be patterned to the nearest non-unique equivalent pattern in the template - and if a new pattern begins to be commonly used (i.e. the Reebok spikes), it too should be added to the template. I can kinda see the point of the reversions on, say, Adelaide United (which I would have changed to probably red with an existing Reebok spike pattern) but insisting on plain/ "main colour" kits is just silly. I kept a similar attitude to the A-League kits last year - some people would, say, insist the Melbourne Victory kit be an exact pictorial replica, others wanted it as plain navy blue - I kept it as navy blue with the kit template's _whitesides pattern. 144.133.75.163 12:55, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
User:Doma-w has been creating a lot of articles on individual matches from the Olympic games like this one. What's the consensus on articles on individual games? I can understand articles for, say, World Cup Finals, but is this editor going to find their hard work removed if someone decides to AfD this lot? and if so, might it better to warn them now before s/he wastes any more effort? Cheers, EliminatorJR Talk 14:51, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I strongly support the deletion of these particular (non-)articles. Punkmorten 20:14, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I was looking at the above earlier today (nice work, Johan Elisson) and thought it might be time to bring it more in line with what's actually going into club articles, if that doesn't sound backwards. I've seen elements in several articles that I think would be worthwhile introducing into more articles (though, of course, I'm drawing a blank as I type). I'll refer to the relevant discussion page when they occur to me, and I'd urge others to do the same. With close-seasons almost upon us, it would be a good time to get club articles tidied up, but we'll always have our work cut out with player articles, of course (Eufa Cup, indeed). - Dudesleeper · Talk 19:36, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
While we're on the subject of manuals of style, perhaps we should create one for the club season articles which have been starting to appear lately. I've been working on Bristol Rovers F.C. season 2006-07, and I've noticed that the other articles at Category:English_football_club_seasons all seem to have different styles, content, and naming conventions. Perhaps some kind of standardisation needs to be agreed on? Gasheadsteve 17:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
What do people think about creating a list of football teams in cities e.g. London, Rio de Janiero, Buenos Airies etc. This woule be especially relevant for South American countries, as teams are rarely named after their home city. GiantSnowman 19:17, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
This forum thread got me thinking: should we perhaps start an article with a list of relatives involved in football? We could include the Schmiechels, Nevilles, Davids, Seerdorfs, Terrys etc. GiantSnowman 19:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I recently added Template:Football League Championship, Template:Football League One and Template:Football League Two teamlist to my watchlist, anticipating people adding teams to their promoted/relegated league in advance, as happened last year. Now, they're quite patently getting edited, but they're not showing up on my watchlist and their history shows no record of the edits. Am I going mad? HornetMike 20:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
This user returned changing the header style on the football squad template set, now removing at all every single colour from the table. The result was terribly ugly at my eyes, and as this is not the first time he acts this way I reverted all his edits. Please look in particular at the Fs start and Fs mid templates.-- Angelo 17:24, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Reopened discussion here. Please state your opinion there. – Elisson • T • C • 16:17, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
One of the most irritating things is the number of minor five-a-side, student or pub teams (especially from the UK) who add vanity articles about themselves in. Sometimes it's a case of luck in finding them, but I've come up with a way of spotting most of them and thought I should pass it on. Special:Whatlinkshere sorts articles by their addition date, and as most authors of these articles mimic the big clubs' articles by using the {{ Infobox Football club}} template, by checking the end of the list of articles that transclude it (e.g. with this link) any recently-added articles about non-notable teams can be picked up. I have the above link as a bookmark and check once a day to identify any non-notable teams from the UK and speedy tag them with {{ db-club}} for deletion (aside - this should always be used as the first option with pages like these - AfDs should only be used as a last resort. I'm getting tired of patently non-notable teams going to AfD without speedy or prod tried first so please bear this in mind, thanks).
Anyway, I stay clear of most other countries other than the UK though as I am not sure what counts as notable there, but other members of the Wikiproject will know better than I and might be able to use it for non-notable teams from their respective countries. Hope this proves useful to some of you. Qwghlm 10:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Unrelated to the above, there is a discussion ongoing on Wikipedia talk:Notability (people) with respect to Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people)/Archive_5#Regarding_notability_of_Football_.28soccer.29_players. Please feel free to add your input 84.9.81.110 17:40, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
The disambiguation page for the name " Werner" lists three men named "Werner Roth", and two of them are associated with football (soccer):
The American player is Serbian-born, and notable on several levels, according to the page on him (above) and the List of American soccer players with dual nationality, though that page seems lacking. Isn't there a soccer infobox?.
Also, does anyone know anything about the German coach? He's listed on Karlsruher SC's page, but is he notable enough to have his own page? If so, please add biographical and other info to his page. I just created it as a stub. Fredwerner 03:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC) Fredwerner 03:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Should we add that controversy which nearly affected Man United? KyleR Giggs 15:15, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi, following concerns raised on the talk page of Huddersfield Town I thought I'd start a new conversation on celebrity fans. I've had discussions with a couple of Wikipedians in the past, and there's bits and pieces against it on various pages across the WikiProject. But it'd be healthy to get a new consensus. As far as I'm concerned, lists of celebrity fans should be removed from club articles as it's information more about the person than the club. That Watford is supported by Brian Conolly or whoever is not the sort of stuff for a main page article. In my view they should go even if they are sourced, as they are on Huddersfield, but especially if they're not. Anyway, thoughts? HornetMike 09:34, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
(de-indent) By that logic a "notable players" list would consist of every player in Category:Example F.C. players. For a lot of clubs such a supporters list would be huge (given that in many cases "support" is merely them once being referred to as a supporter in a printed publication or on TV), which would end up something like this. See also the likes of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Arsenal F.C. Supporters. Sure, Elissons sticky toffee pudding example was reductio ad absurdium, but I doubt you'd see a section listing famous fans of, say, Coldplay. Oldelpaso 16:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I just had a look at Sunderland A.F.C. and I think it needs a clean up, it's slightly different to the normal norm we have. Just thought a few people might be interested in bring it up to scratch. Regards, Govvy 13:45, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I see that all club articles have lists of 'Notable players'. This is entirely POV and fails WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE- one person's list of notable players will be different to another person's. What is needed to comply with WP policy is some clear criteria. I suggest that 'Notable players' is replaced by 'Full and u-21 internationals' but am receptive to argument as to different criteria. BlueValour 23:38, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
I led a call to remove the notable players list the Liverpool F.C. article in July 2006 where we came to a consensus to do it. Later, the section was replaced with its current form, which is a few paragraphs of prose about various record holders — much better in my eyes. aLii 12:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I've started to notice an increasing prevalence of assist columns appearing in player's stats boxes. I was wondering if anyone could point to any sites that had reliable data on them? I just deleted the assist stats from the Steven Gerrard article, because I wanted to update them, but had no idea where to find the relevent info. I'm not against having such info in articles, but I'd like to know where it's coming from. aLii 12:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
The article is currently rated as B class but I think that the article is much better than a B rating. It's about time we re-rated this. So what shall we give it now? Govvy 13:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Oldelpaso, what do you think of the standard of the article now? Govvy 12:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Jus wanted someone to review, suggest ideas, check, etc { Santiago26 05:17, 15 February 2007 (UTC)}
I would be grateful if some kind soul would have a looksee at the Swindon article and give me a suggestion on layout and also possibly help improve the prose in the history section.
At the moment the layout is a bit haphazard, with prose here and there and the history section is a heavily snipped extract from the main History of Swindon Town F.C. article, and as such reads like someone hammering facts into your head.
Oh and if anyone wants to assess it as well, be my guest. Cheers - Foxhill 15:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
This is the third request in a row. Perhaps people could post such requests at WP:PR instead? Punkmorten 15:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to all for your comments, they are much appreciated. I hope to have the article at a stage I would feel comfortable with for Peer Review within the next couple of weeks or so. I will reply to comments on the talk page later today, again - Many many thanks - Foxhill 12:33, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Forwarding a question from Forbsey on Talk:Rangers F.C., are manager statistics on club articles, e.g. Rangers F.C.#Team managers, domestic league matches only? Archibald99 19:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
The article listing the winners of the Norwegian Premier League is currently named Norwegian Soccer League Champions (Men). I want to move this page to something resembling the two Featured Articles we have, English football champions and Swedish football champions. The problem is that, unlike in England and Sweden and probably most other countries, it is not the winners of the league in Norway but the winners of the cup who are "Norwegian football champions" and so using this name for an article about the league winners would be misleading. I'm leaning towards Norwegian Premier League champions; the article could also be named Norwegian football league champions, although I think this name is too similar to "Norwegian football champions" and might cause some confusion. Any thoughts on this matter? -- Léman 00:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I've put some work into the Football in London article in recent days, any assitance would be appreciated. I'm hoping to 'wikify' all the clubs linked to from this article, so as to include the standard information table, and the link box at the bottom of the page to other teams in the division. Please come along and help! Grunners 15:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I was considering putting average league attendances for the 2006-7 season (calculated from Soccerbase) into an article (along with a percentage of the ground's capacity). Would you say there's enough value to make it worthwhile? If so, would you include it in the stadium article or the club article? (Preferably not both.) - Dudesleeper · Talk 23:47, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
This WikiProject has recently been created, so it probably should be inserted into the navbox alongside the A-League and Non-league projects. I have to say, I'm not entirely sure of it's purpose - until the Premiership split in 1992-93 all there was to professional football was the football league, so I don't understand why we need seperate articles for it alongside the present season articles. HornetMike 15:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
The definition of UEFA Intertoto Cup winner has not been defined, let's discuss about it. kYLE RaymonD GIGGS 17:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
My attention has been drawn to the large number of articles referring to A.F.C. Bournemouth that link to Bournemouth F.C. an amateur club based at Victoria Park who have never been a league club. I have fixed a whole bunch of league seasons records but it would be helpful if editors could keep an eye open for others that should go to A.F.C. Bournemouth. BlueValour 02:57, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
What do people think? Listcruft? A genuinely useful list? I've done a bit of cleanup and although inclined weakly to nom for deletion I thought I'd ask the opinion of people here first. Qwghlm 08:52, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
What are the opinions on this article? I personally think it should be moved to 2003 UEFA Cup final and restructured to give a more universal view on the subject. Archibald99 20:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I would like to point out a mistake. It says that there was not one single arrest. I know there was at least one, one Celtic fan stabbed another Celtic fan. And I am sure that i've read that there were more.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Allanmac9 ( talk • contribs) 02:49, 8 April 2007.
I want to bring up the decreasing activity at the football article improvement drive. The earlier success of the collaborations of this drive led to many featured articles. I encourage everyone to contribute to the current article, nominate articles, and vote on nominations in order to increase the activity and success of this article improvement drive back to its previous level. Timpcrk87 02:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Nominations wanted - The article improvement drive is currently without a single nomination. Suggestions of needy articles are welcome. Oldelpaso 14:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I've created a category entitled People who died before the age of 50, and I think it would be useful in football-personnel articles. As I mentioned on the category's talk page, I perceive 50 as being a young age at which to pop your clogs, especially when, in the world of the beautiful game, some individuals ( Stanley Matthews, for example) have played past that age. - Dudesleeper · Talk 07:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed that some people put a former player's position to be Manager (former Midfielder), for example, in the infoboxes. My view is that position refers to the position they played in, and if they are currently a manager of a club, then that can go in the club number bit of the box. Am tempted to just change a couple that I've spotted just now, but thought this might be worth wider discussion and a consensus on how to deal with this. WikiGull 21:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Really small (perhaps pointless?) thing, but some players (Cesc Fàbregas is a good example) who come from clubs such as Barcelona have Barça B/C under their youth section and in the main article, when of course they never actually played for the B team. So should under youth teams be either: A general "FC Barcelona Youth System", the actual youth section they got to at the club (for Cesc: "FC Barcelona Cadete A"), or something like "La Masia". The same applies for the Barça B/C pages, under famous players they mention players who have never (or not yet) played for B/C, should there be a general Barcelona (and other teams) Youth section which goes (in Barcelona's case) from Infantil A/B to Barça B. Cheers, Fran 5 March 2007
There is an ongoing dispute at the above articles. The dispute centers around the first Copa del Rey in 1902 and whether it should be included as an Athletic Bilbao win. Myself and another editor User: Deibid believe that it should be. However a third editor User: BarcelonaMarc is constantly reediting the articles to reflect differently. The Copa was won by Club Vizcaya which is not disputed. However Club Vizcaya is not a separate club from Athletic, but rather an alternative name. Several clubs including FC Barcelona, Real Madrid, Real Sociedad and RCD Espanyol and Real Unión have won the Copa del Rey under different names. All trophies won under their various names are included in one list. So why should the Athletic record be different ?
Below is a timeline which explains the early history of Athletic. [2]
The 1902 Copa is included in Athletic’s own honours list [3] and the trophy is in their museum [4]. The eleven Club Vizcaya players who played in the final - L. Arana, E Careaga, P. Larranga, L. Silva, A. Arana, Goiri, Cazeaux, Astorquia, W. Dyer, R. Silva, W. Evans - are all included in an archive of former Athletic players [5].
I believe the above clearly shows that Club Vizcaya was simply a name used by Athletic Bilbao and is not a separate club. A similar situation occurred in 1909 when Real Sociedad used the name Club Ciclista. However User: BarcelonaMarc has chosen to ignore all this evidence. He argues that Club Vizcaya is a different club but offers no evidence to prove this. I do not believe BarcelonaMarc is acting objectively or that he can be considered as an independent. On his own user page he describes himself as an FC Barcelona fan. If the 1902 Copa is credited to Athletic then it would mean that Athletic and FC Barcelona share the amount of Copa wins. I believe that BarcelonaMarc must begrudge sharing and that is why he continues to revert edits. I would appreciate it if other editers could offer their opionions and/or help resolve this issue as it has been ongoing for sometime and BarcelonaMarc will not listen to reason. Djln-- Djln -- Djln 00:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The Copa del Rey is administered by the RFEF, isn't it? Then it follows we should follow their official classification (or else we break WP:OR and WP:SOAP). The article states (though without a reference yet) that the RFEF do not consider Vizcaya and Athletic to be the same club.
To me, it seems ridiculous to me that a club can claim to have won a trophy before it was officially established, so unless the RFEF have retroactively awarded the 1902 title to Athletic Bilbao, then it should be considered that of Vizcaya. Qwghlm 14:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Athletic Bilboa is the legitimate inheritor of the tradition of Club Vizcaya. They have a right to claim the title and a matching duty acknowledge their predecessor. aLii's solution, which clearly and simply lists the facts of the situation, works and is one that I've used more than once when writing about German clubs where this type of situation crops up frequently and is exacerbated by circumstance of traditional clubs playing under alternate identities in East Germany or under wartime conditions, for example. The irony is that this sort of thing adds colour to an article about a club and should go as an interesting tidbit rather than something to squabble over. Wiggy! 01:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Is it part of the Project now? I've seen several anons and at least one user adding flags in players/managers templates. — Lesfer (t/ c/ @) 03:36, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I imagine those involved with this project will be most aware if the topic has come up for discussion before. Is there any reason why starting a category for players who have won the Champions League would be a bad idea? Personally I'd find it useful, but thought I'd double check first. KeithD 10:46, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I just thought i'd bring up this minor problem with managerial statistics in managers articles. Should the format be "Games Won Lost Drawn" or "Games Won Drawn Lost". The argument for the GWLD layout is that soccerbase, the main provider of managerial stats, gives it out like this, so it is easier to update the stats. The argument for the GWDL layout is that it is the conventional way that is usually used. What do you guys think? -- Mattythewhite 16:23, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
A contributor to Liverpool F.C. recently added bold to the names of those players who have international caps in the squad list. My personal opinion is that the information is not particularly relevant, and that it makes the squad list look a mess, but it was suggested on the talk page maybe it could be taken here for discussion - I'd be interested in other people's opinions: perhaps this really is a desirable introduction into football team articles, communicating an important piece of information succinctly? Robotforaday 10:48, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I must confess, it was me that did it for Watford, because only a few Watford players have international caps. I didn't do it for Liverpool/Arsenal/Chelsea/Man U because most of their players are capped, so please decide amongst yourselves what to do. My idea is to do it for clubs of second tier or lower. as they will be a significant few. Cheers, к1иgf1$н£я5ω1fт 12:05, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh, just spotted something. Coventry have an international section with current players, so maybe that should be utilised. It looks good, and doesn't clutter the article. I vouch for that. к1иgf1$н£я5ω1fт 12:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
It looks ugly in my opinion and not particularly useful, particularly given the Fowler example above. I'd get rid of it for consistency's sake. Qwghlm 12:14, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Remove it all. I don't really see the point in including it. – Elisson • T • C • 15:15, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
The article on Tinsley Lindley states "he scored 15 international goals in just 13 games" which is supported by his profile at www.englandfootballonline.com [8]
His profile at www.englandfc.com [9] credits him with 14 goals in 13 appearances.
Finally, TheFA.com gives his record as 13 goals from 13 games. [10]
Can anyone supply a definitive answer?
I have raised a similar query on the talk page for the article 1885-86 in English football about one of the "missing goals" Daemonic Kangaroo 14:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I have one question for you, as you are my fellow WikiProject colleagues :), shouldn't "USSR national football team" and related FIFA World Cup templates be renamed to "Soviet Union" form? We already use United States instead of U.S. or USA. I have alredy contacted native Russian users and they are rather in favour of "Soviet Union" form. Thank you. - Darwinek 20:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
This morning the article was moved to association football, along with a few related articles, claiming "majority concensus". While I am involved in the conflict wanting the article to stay, I have failed to see any such consensus, and I moved those articles back just now. Either way, this needs much broader input from experienced football editors, so please, give your opinion on the matter at Talk:Football (soccer). – Elisson • T • C • 18:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello all. Having successfully driven three articles over at Wikiproject:Cricket to featured status over the past couple of months, Dweller and I are turning our attentions to our home clubs, starting with Ipswich Town F.C. and then onto Norwich City F.C..
Naturally, we don't own the pages so we'd like to encourage as many people as possible who have a passing interest in pushing an article to WP:FA or in the clubs themselves to get involved. Typically, this process will start with me slapping a few dozen citation needed tags on all uncited "facts". It will make the article appear unsightly in the interim, but it is a very useful way of picking off original research.
While I realise there is a Article Improvement Drive already in play here in the project, I'd still like to encourage others to join in on this mini-version.
Please feel free to contact me or Dweller if you'd like to contribute to the drive or, better still, just get in there. The Rambling Man 11:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
There’s a degree of disagreement—nothing like an edit war: only reasonable editors are involved!—here over how much credence to give to to the theory that the root cause was diamond smuggling. The theory seems plausible but also surprising and surprisingly single-sourced and undebated elsewhere. All knowledgable contributions welcomed. (And I will be very happy to leave the debate to people better versed in football history!) — Ian Spackman 14:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Could people please give their thoughts on whether the hide option should be added to Template:National squad. There's been a lot of discussion on whether these cause clutter, particularly given that they're likely to increase (e.g. Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2007_March_8#All_national_team_Squad_TP_other_than_World_Cup), and someone suggested the idea of adding the hide option. I had a go User:ArtVandelay13/squadstest which seems to work fairly well, it won't break the existing templates were it changed over, and the only visual changes are pretty minor. No-one objected when I mentioned it on the Tfd page, but when I tried to change it it was reverted and locked, so I'm putting it to the wider community. Any ideas?
Comparison:
ArtVandelay13 15:03, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with deleting them, as they are attractive and informative as well as providing links to a lot of other articles. I say keep and add the hide option. к1иgf1$н£я5ω1fт 11:33, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
This is rather process-wonkish of me, but can an admin move Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Manchester United to Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Manchester United F.C. over the redirect? Thanks. Oldelpaso 19:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Why is it editors from england are so eager to add negative information, like diving, to articles of non-english players, but wont add any diving behaviour to the articles of english players. Steven Gerrard being an obvious example (diving in the champions leaugue final, several matches in the pl and against hungary come to mind). No mentioning of diving on Joe Cole and Wayne Rooney either. Yet I always see edits from english ip's adding diving behaviour to the articles of CRonaldo, Drogba or Robben regularly. 85.187.30.2 15:09, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I realize that he isn't the biggest star of English football, but he is the current leading scorer in the Conference National, and his rise to the level he is at is quite remarkable. However, it's difficult for me to find much information regarding his career before Dagenham & Redbridge, and I can't find any biographical information either. If anyone could assist in making this article more complete, it would be appreciated. Che84 18:47, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Today, User:SndrAndrss10 added 2000 and 2004 Euro Championship squad templates for Boudewijn Zenden. Now, I'm sure I remember there being consensus to get rid of these things- are am I just being hopelessly optimistic? Robotforaday 20:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous user constantly has been changing the WP:FOOTBALL redirect to point to the american football wikiproject. At this point, I'm not sure what do as it seems that the redirect was first used in this Wikiproject. // Laughing Man 16:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I'd be grateful for some input. User:Alii h has made some fairly radical edits which in my view helped the article. Unfortunately they have also annoyed a few previous contributors with their boldness, including I confess myself initially. An edit war is in danger; what we really need is some football-savvy input at Talk:Johan Cruijff#aLii's improvements to the article. Can you spare a few minutes to have a look? Thank you in advance. -- Guinnog 20:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Article has no "importance" rating. I'd also invite a member to reconsider the current "B" quality rating. Finally, the article's almost finished at peer review and will shortly be heading to WP:FAC. Tweaks, criticisms and suggestions from you, the people who understand the game are most welcome. Thanks. -- Dweller 18:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
It's a nice article, well constructed, nice layout of images and decent prose. It would also be nice to have an FA of another team from below the top division (I think the only other one is Sheffield Wednesday), so I'll definately support it when the FAC comes round. к1иgf1$н£я5ω1fт 16:30, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I am seeking assistance from people knowledgeable about the criteria used to determine whether English soccer clubs are notable. We are looking to develop something for for the various codes of football notable in Australia and we are looking to use that as a possible model. Capitalistroadster 02:25, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to discuss the abbreviation SAFC, which has wider implications for abbreviations of football teams in general. My opinion is that if a team is notable enough to appear in Wikipedia, it is also notable to have its abbreviated form appear on a disambiguation page, assuming that the abbreviated form is actually used anywhere in the outside world. Surely a redirect should only be used where there is only one entity to take that abbreviated form?
To that end, I made SAFC a disambig page, pointing to both Sunderland A.F.C.. and Stirling Albion F.C.. But it keeps being reverted back to a redirect to Sunderland A.F.C. only. Having reverted it twice myself, I would rather get a consensus here than enter into an edit war. I did mention it on the Sunderland A.F.C. talk page but it only generated one response.
I completely accept that Sunderland are more notable than Stirling Albion, but Stirling Albion can be abbreviated to SAFC - see here - so surely they should be included? Thoughts anyone? -- Jameboy 09:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks everyone for all the comments and help so far. Just wondered if there is now a need to create the page S.A.F.C. as a redirect to SAFC? Thanks. -- Jameboy 13:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I need some help in dealing with User:Nadia Kittel who persists in making poor edits to this page and various others. This has been an on-going problem that has included posting of spam external links, deletion of external English-language links, posting of unsourced images, posting of incorrect material, and one petty edit after another, all wrapped up in a refusal in anyway to respond to entries on his talk page or the talk pages of the articles he edits. He's also demonstrated a gift for bizarre formating turning simple lists into unmanageable columns and at one point he had the BFC page looking like this: [12] and its been an on-going struggle to keep the article from being turned into a fan page, hoolgan/Ultras central, or shrine to the former DDR. He won't respond to posts in English or his native German from any other editor and has often deleted or immediately archived talk items that don't suit him. Doesn't think twice about carrying on under various IPs. He's overwritten image files with his own inaccurate versions. He's dumped material copy edited for correct English for his own poorly translated stuff (if anyone can make out the caption to the Mielke picture currently posted, you deserve a prize).
I've posted looking for help elsewhere, but am not getting anywhere (i.e. no responses in general forums) so I'm hoping I can find other editors or an admin with an interest in football who may be better motivated to help bring this guy around or lay a block on him (he's been blocked before for his unfriendly approach). I'd rather be back at creating new articles or editing existing stuff to help improve things, but instead I'm sucked into a stupid edit war and will end up taking a bullet for it sooner or later. We're down now to stuff that's more trivial in nature than where it was weeks ago, but I'm tired of the guy's months-long pattern of obnoxious behavior. And frustrated. Help! Wiggy! 17:18, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey, thanks to all who contributed and suggested, Ipswich Town F.C. is now a featured article, making it only the sixth English club article to reach this status, and only the second outside the top flight. Hurrah. The Rambling Man 07:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
There appears to be significant crossover between the articles Local derbies in the United Kingdom and List of football (soccer) rivalries. Can these be merged or somehow restructured to prevent duplication? -- Jameboy 11:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Whatever happens, the article Local derbies in the United Kingdom cannot just simply be merged with List of football (soccer) rivalries as the UK derbies list is about differing sports, such as football, rugby league, rugby union, cricket and hockey. And not just football. Tangerines 15:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Should a player who was signed for some club, but have never played for it, categorized as a player of this club? MaxSem 08:59, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes - Andy Webster, for example, could rightly be described as a Rangers player - therefore players such as him should be included in these categories. Archibald99 16:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I know this is a really minor point but I figured I'd bring it up anyway. I've noticed that on a lot of football pages, editors have put things like "So-And-So F.C. were Champions of the Such-And-Such League in 1983" - is there a reason for the use of a capital C on "Champions"? it's not like it's a proper noun..... ChrisTheDude 13:13, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps someone could take a look at this new article List of "D" Football Squads, please? Means nothing to me I'm afraid. (Though I see its just been put up for a speedy so you may have to be quick!) TerriersFan 03:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Would you guys please add your opinions in here? — Lesfer (t/ c/ @) 16:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm surprised we don't have an article on this already. Does anyone object?-- Ioshus (talk) 14:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Several articles, including Pele, Maradona and Johan Cruijff claim that they are "regarded by many as one of the greatest footballers of all time". The same claim has been in the George Best article. Recently a few editors (who I suspect are the same person) have been removing this from the Best article. The claim is well referenced in the Best article, with referenced quotes from Pele, Maradona and others.
What are people's opinions on this? Stu ’Bout ye! 12:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Stubacca I am afraid you are a bit biased. The 'references' you have are feeble at best and so is your allegation that one individual is haunting you. This label "regarded by many as one of the greatest footballers of all time" should be used very carefully. Pele, Maradona and Cruyff are worthy of that label + perhaps a few more (should be researched). Many other splinter groups may feel their favorite footballer deserves that accolade as well, but one should remain very careful. I believe Zinedine Zidane and Michel Platini belong there, but I want more evidence before I would edit. The Best fans are such a splinter group.
1. A British interviewer has recorded that Maradona has said that George Best was his idol. This may be true - only one source though and it was a quote embedded in a story. I have heard Maradona talk about Best, but more in a sense that he could identify himself with the maverick, self destruction, and absolute football talent (that Best certainly had) married into one. Also 2. Pele mentions George Best in his list of 125 greatest living footballers, a list that his received a lot criticism for politically correct picking etc (am not saying that Best shouldn't be on that list - I think he should be) 3. From time to time, exclusively in British media it seems, one sees this hearsay quote from Pele where he endorses Best as the greatest footballer ever. Not only is this a poorly sourced quote it is very probably not even true and he has never said words to that effect or meant it in that way - blown out of context. Pele mentions Best merely twice in his autobiography, both mentions are drink-related but he does describe him as a 'Latin footballer'. 4. In numerous all time polls FIFA, IFFHS, France Football etc etc Best consistently does not even make the top 10.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Le Professeur70 ( talk • contribs)
Would you support the claim being removed in all of the articles it is in? I disagree that the Pele quote should be removed. A link to the actual interview would be preferable, but the BBC has to be one of the most reliable sources available. Their editorial policy is published and explicitly mentions fact checking. Stu ’Bout ye! 15:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
By that reasoning you could call any source unreliable! The BBC reference is reliable secondary source I feel. I can't see anything in the policy to say otherwise.
On the subject of stating anyone is the greatest, my feeling is all of these claims should be removed. Anyone else agree? Stu ’Bout ye! 09:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm happy with that, I've edited the article accordingly. Thanks for your advice. I'll wait to see if there is any further input on the other "greatest" claims. Stu ’Bout ye! 10:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I've removed these kind of claims from several different articles over the last few days. A rele vant section from WP:NPOV:
A simple formulation
Alternatively: assert facts, including facts about opinions — but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can.
By value or opinion, on the other hand, we mean "a piece of information about which there is some dispute." There are bound to be borderline cases where we are not sure if we should take a particular dispute seriously; but there are many propositions that very clearly express values or opinions. That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion. That the Beatles were the greatest band in history is a value or opinion. That the United States was wrong to drop the atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a value or opinion.
On the subjuct of Best's article, I don't think it is in that bad a shape. Certainly the section of his footballing career needs expanding though. His "celebrity", alcoholism, illness and death are - unfortunately - notable, and a big part of why he was so well known. One the footballing sections are expanded the focus/emphasis on the these sections won't be as strong. Stu ’Bout ye! 13:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Pele, Maradona, Johan Cruijff, Best, etc are regarded by many as some of the greatest players of all time. If it can be vertified then keep the information in the article. It isn't POV for two reasons 1) the word "regarded" 2) the phrase "one of the".
None of the articles say for example; "X player is the greatest of all time" (as there is no way to really prove who is the #1 greatest of all time) but if they are widely regarded (and citations can be provided) to be one of the greatest, then keep it in there. - Deathrocker 12:33, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Stubacca's changes. Claims are okay if and only if attributed. "John Doe is the best flute player<ref>[2007 FooBar internet poll]</ref>" is not acceptable, but "John Doe is the best flute player according to a 2007 FooBar internet poll" is. — Quarl ( talk) 2007-03-15 17:16Z
There is constant reversion backwards and forwards between these or similar phrases in the opening paragraph. The article cited demonstrates that in an on-line poll to register preferences for the greatest player of the 20th century, Maradona received not only the greatest number of votes, but an absolute majority. Such a poll is unrepresentative, and open to block voting, and I would not be infavour of a comment saying that "most football fans consider him to be the greatest", but it does prove that many count him as the best. Although "many" is obviously non-specific, I would contend that it is less mealy-mouthed than "widely held". Likewise, it is verifiable that many have registered a preference for him as the best, wheras to say that he is "among the best" invites the question "the best what? The best 3? the best 20? the best 500?". Thus to say merely that he is "among the best" is to damn with faint praise, and to underestimate the esteem in which this player's ability is held. (I make no comment as to his character, except to suggest that it may have lead a significant number of people to be unwilling to give the recognition they might otherwise have done to his talent). Thus I propose that the first phrase in the heading of this section remain, but look forward to lively debate of the matter. Kevin McE 20:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- See the discussion I started at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#"Greatest" claims in several football articles. and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football#"Greatest" claims. Stu ’Bout ye! 08:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Your position seems to be founded largely on WP:WEASEL: the top of that article reads This page in a nutshell: Avoid "some people say" statements without sources. My whole point is that here there is a source, and the source, an authoritative and relevant worldwide body, reports that a majority of those participating in a widely promoted poll say not only that he is "among the best" (which I would contend is a weasel phrase, for reasons stated above), but that he is "the best. Kevin McE 20:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Stubacca's changes. Claims are okay if and only if attributed. "John Doe is the best flute player<ref>[2007 FooBar internet poll]</ref>" is not acceptable, but "John Doe is the best flute player according to a 2007 FooBar internet poll" is. — Quarl ( talk) 2007-03-15 17:16Z
- I cannot see that a claim is any less attributed by virtue of being in the footnote than in the text, and the brevity desirable in a lead paragraph weighs against such detail in the opening sentence of an article. Kevin McE 20:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- This isn't about whether it's in the footnote or not. The problem is an internet poll is not a reliable source. It's not even a secondary source. You can't say "Donatello is the world's favorite Ninja Turtle [13]". I'm not saying that Donatello isn't widely regarded as the best Ninja Turtle; I'm saying that an internet poll doesn't prove this, and if this claim is challenged, then it should be removed until it is supported by references. What is supported by the reference is "Readers of Slashdot voted that their favorite Ninja Turtle is Donatello [14]". Unfortunately for Donatello fans, that statement sounds wimpier; too bad, find a better reference to back up the original claim. That's WP:ATT for you - the onus is on the person trying to add/keep a statement, not the person challenging it. WP:ATT trumps concerns about the brevity of the lede paragraph. If "Foo says Bar is the best" is a crappy sentence, then remove it altogether; it doesn't mean you're free to write "Bar is the best." Can I give you more examples? "Americans prefer Rudy Giuliani to Hilary Clinton as 2008 president [15]" versus "According to a 2006 American Research Group poll, ..."; "Jeff Bezos was the most influential person of 1999" versus "TIME magazine considered Jeff Bezoes the most influential person of 1999." — Quarl ( talk) 2007-03-16 07:01Z
Stu ’Bout ye! 09:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Not exactly following but I will try to conform an edit to what I think you're saying. Ronnymexico 14:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I removed it from the heading and placed the statement and attribution under the "honors" section, which I think is probably more appropriate. I tend to question the worthiness of Cantona's opinion of Maradona v. Pele, particularly iat the top of the Maradona article, but that's neither here nor there. Ronnymexico 15:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
![]() | → Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Marlon.sahetapy |
I've been doing some expansion work on Corinthian F.C., and I noticed that, although their adult side folded, they appear to still field teams at youth levels - should they therefore be included in Category:Defunct English football clubs? The club itself isn't technically defunct, but its adult 11-a-side team is. Any thoughts....? ChrisTheDude 08:32, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
As one of the users that helped to piece together the readily available information about Pelé's total number of goals, it has come to my attention that there is a minor edit war brewing on the article over the number of goals that should be displayed in the infobox. On one hand there is a case for stating the games (goals) for his Santos career as 193 (119), which is the sum total for national league-based competitions. The other argument is that the regional league, the Campeonato Paulista, should be counted, bringing the total to 605 (589). Further details on his career stats breakdown can be seen at Pelé#Goalscoring and appearance record.
The infobox footnote states: Senior club appearances and goals counted for the domestic league only.
I doubt that Pelé's circumstances were in mind when the infobox footnote was formulated, so what does everyone think? aLii 13:03, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Before Campeonato Brasileiro (1971-on) there was Torneio Roberto Gomes Pedrosa (1967-1970) and Torneio Rio-São Paulo -- which from 1950 until 1966 had a national-level status. But Campeonato Paulista have never had a "national" status. It's merely a state-level competition. What if people begin adding every apps and gols from every domestic league in Brazil? The structure of Brazilian football is pretty much based on the English one (not THAT much divisions lol) as were English descendants Charles Miller and Oscar Box who brought football to Brazil. — Lesfer (t/ c/ @) 16:53, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I'd appreciate it if someone using a browser other than Firefox wouldn't mind comparing the appearances/goals section here and here and letting me know if the former looks right in their browser. I'm puzzled and slightly frustrated by the anonymous editor's ~3,000 contributions. - Dudesleeper · Talk 17:23, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I created this article a while back now, but I seem to be the only one contributing to it. Just thought I'd make you guys aware of its existence, and hopefully get you to make some contributions. I feel it could be a featured article. Cheers. GiantSnowman 13:16, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I thinking of getting MiszaBot to archive this talk page automatically when topics have had no discussion for a while (two weeks? a month?). While I don't anticipate any objections, I thought I'd check first. Oldelpaso 09:41, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I think putting discussion on proper pages is more important. Notability should be used. Matthew_hk t c 10:20, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Someone put a page I made about my local side up for speedy deletaion, and it got deleted. I however feel this was unfairly justified.
Clubs in the Scottish Amateur League(Lowland clubs usually) are allowed pages.
If I followed the criteria from here, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Notability it says your club is "Probably Notable" if you have supplied a player to a national side, wait we have - Andy Gray, albeit that he didn't get chosen until he was at Dundee United. And alot of clubs in Scotland have never supplied a player to the National side, I ask how many players for East Stiringshire have gone on to supply a player for the national side, same with Gretna, same with Elgin.
Another point that is made is the 10+caps rule. 10+ Caps, nail on the head there, how many caps did Andy Gray win? 100+ appearence for a club? he made over 100 appearences for two top level clubs. He played for in all 7 premier divison sides of their respected nations, winning the Cup Winners Cup with one of them, Everton.
Oh another one, clubs, who don't normally charge an entrance fee for spectators, i'll have you know that you do need to pay to get in to a Back Fc game, who do you think we are, a school side?
Also why do England get to have pages for clubs from the first 8 divisons of football? I'm sure the Amateur seen is probably in the top 6 of the Scottish divisons.
Well since you deleted the page, I demand that these club pages should be deleted too since they play at the EXACT same level, except in a different region, but no, I don't see anyone rushing to delete these pages.
St Patrick's Former Pupils F.C. Oban Saints F.C. Eaglesham Amateur F.C.
And all the clubs playing in this league, Central Scottish Amateur Football League and this league Kingdom Caledonian Football League. They all play at the exact same level, and all the clubs are registered with the Scottish Amateur Football Association
Its discrimination against my club I reckon.
So can someone please explain to me why the page got deleted.
Allanmac9 02:07, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought members of the project might like to respond to this question on the Motherwell F.C. talk page. Archibald99 23:19, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Both these pages appear to be a bit of a mess with dead links, multiple links, numerous unverified sources and lists of unverified groups. Both pages are full of alleged ultras groups, many of which are not verified. And it just seems that groups keep getting added without being checked. For instance, in one of the list of groups, a German club - FC Berliner Dynamo has numerous entries. Yet when checked, they all just seem to be links to fan websites, and nothing to do with ultras.
Also, some of the content is more relevant to the pages about football hooliganism, which whilst a similar area is a different subject. I would like to try and work on both the pages to see if they can be made more appropriate for wikipedia and to also then maybe get the idea tp merge the List of ultras groups into the Ultras page finally sorted (At present it would probably make the pages even worse to merge them). It wouldn't be an overnight task as it would take a while to get everything sorted. Would it be in order to make a start on this? Thanks Tangerines 16:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I have tidied up the Ultras article, including deleting all the groups listed that were not verified. The article Hooligan firm has clear guidelines for adding a firm - that there must be a reliable, verified source naming the firm, with a note included on the list stating as such. I have used this same guideline for the groups list on the Ultras page. There were also numerous links to discussion forums, dead links and completely irrelevant links. And especially on the list of German groups, much of the so called "Groups" were just links to Fan pages, news articles, hooligan articles - basically anything but Ultra groups. What will be needed now with that page though is to verify much of the content of the article. Which is what I propose to do next.
However, the article, List of ultras groups is also a total mess in a similar way. Groups just seem to be added without any thought. And it is further confused as the talk page for the article - Talk:List of ultras groups contains no discussion and only contains yet another a list of groups which just seems to have been transposed from the list (as it was previously) on the Ultras article. If this is left as it is, then no doubt some will continue to add to both the talk page and the main page. Which makes no sense then of having a talk page on that article. I am going through the same process again of deleting any unverified groups - this time on both the main page and the talk page. However, I also would suggest that the talk page has the list removed as it is redundant and is also not discussion. Then the talk page can be used for what it is intended, and discussion can take place about merging it into the Ultras article. I hope all this makes sense, but to be honest the pages are confusing and a mess anyway. Would this be in order? Tangerines 13:15, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I would strongly support the deletion of list of ultras groups, as an indiscriminate list turned total mess. I could provide a precedence, but as per WP:BEANS I won't. Punkmorten 20:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
If you take a look at the List of ultras groups article now it is no longer a total mess, andc certainly no longer indiscriminate. I have deleted every single group that was not verified on both the talk page and the main page. And over the course of the next few days I intend to amalgamate the two lists from that page into one. And then to see about merging that page into the Ultras page where it can also be regularly checked. Tangerines 21:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Over the last couple of weeks I have worked on these two articles. Both Ultras and List of ultras groups now contain exactly the same list of groups. Originally there were three lists (including one on the talk page of List of ultras groups) with all sorts of different groups. I have now gone through all three lists, removing the talk page list, leaving just the two lists which are now identical. I have removed all unsourced groups, and groups that either are clearly not Ultras, or who it seems are not ultras, that there is reasonable doubt as to them being ultras, such as general fan sites and some that were clearly only hooligan firms. I have moved all South American groups to Torcida (Brazilian groups) and Barra brava (all other South American groups). And a note added to state that all South American groups should be added to either of these two articles only. Also, where a country has a large number of groups (such as Germany), I have tidied the list up, so as not to be one very long list of groups for that country. Since doing this, I have maintained both articles and checked every single addition, and ensured that if a group is added to the ultras article, it is also added to the List of ultras groups article.
I have also started to work on the Ultras article to give it a more balanced look, to make it a NPOV article, to get sources and to expand discussion of how the ultra culture differs from country to country, with groups in some countries having a hooligan element and nature to the group, and ultras in other countries being officially recognised (by the club they support) fan groups who focus solely on tifo displays and match day support.
Looking at both articles now though, would it now be more appropriate for the the article List of ultras groups to be deleted as the list is identical to the list in the one article, Ultras? Especially bearing in mind that I have added a note stating that a group should only be added if it is referenced with a fully verifiable source, and so it should not fall back into a massive list of unverified groups as the three previous lists appeared to be. If it is thought that the List of ultras groups article should now be deleted now, perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me could look into how that process would begin? Thank you ♦Tangerines BFC ♦· Talk 15:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought you might like to know that I've nominated a Category for renaming. Please see Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_April_12#Category:Wikipedians_who_support_F.C._Copenhagen. -- Dweller 13:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
An edit war has been taking place over the last few days, revolving around Shevvy's birthplace. Should it be the USSR, or the supposedly "generally accepted" Ukraine, even though it didn't exist as a country at the time of his birth? Any assistance would be appreciated. - Dudesleeper · Talk 10:25, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
There have been various TFD discussions regarding the national squad templates, and there has been no real consistency to the results either. I've listed them below (shamelessly swiped from a comment in the most recent discussion) for everyone's reference.
So, the results have been all over the place, tending towards keep recently, against precedents previously set. Personally, I think that a link to a team's roster page for a particular tournament on a player's page is sufficient for our purposes here. See Yoshikatsu Kawaguchi#National team for one example.
But regardless of my opinion on the outcome, I think we need to standardize the rules for inclusion of a national team template on a player's page first. AFAIK, World Cup teams are widely accepted, so I've left them off the list below. I'd like to see what kind of concensus is building towards the rest of these, though. So, please add keep or delete to each section. If concensus is to delete some of these, then, the next step is to work on a standard way to link to rosters from athlete pages. The Kawaguchi example is just one suggestion; but, there is no sense in clouding up the discussion on whether the templates belong or not with details on how to replace the information they contain. Neier 13:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I would rather be rid of them all. At the very least, they should be reformatted so that we can combine multiple squads into a single box like I proposed some time ago. Qwghlm 23:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
That's is
I can only repeat my comments earlier at Euro_Championship_templates - the present situation is a mess, and the templates clutter up the articles they get attached to. Ultimately, however, I think this debate will never be resolved and these b####y templates are here to stay. Daemonic Kangaroo 05:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Why not have a "current squad" template (like we have for club teams) and delete the rest? Or has this been ruled out before? Kanaye 16:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Template:Macedonia squad ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) a current squad TP. Matthew_hk t c 16:56, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
FWIW, I noticed Macedonia myself, and then when I came here to pick up the link for the deletion discussion, I also spotted your addition of the Ghana squad. Feel free to express your opinions on those discussions. Neier 08:00, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Allo all, I may not be the only one in thinking that the current football league template lacks a bit of style and information and could do with a revamping, so, I was going to propose that something got under way to standardising it to a different one, I was going to suggest one like that here. Please get back to me with your thoughts. Cintrianex 11:16, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking about the idea of creating an article for a list of Premier League players. It could list players who have made 200+ appearences or something along those lines? Tell me what you guys think. Thanks, Mattythewhite 17:29, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Name | Date of birth | Nat | Apps | Goals | Teams | Years |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Gary Speed | 8 September, 1969 |
![]() |
516 | 78 |
Leeds Everton Newcastle United Bolton Wanderers |
I've just come up with this. Listing all of the teams takes up a lot of space, and should the years account for all their time at that club or just in the Premier League? Mattythewhite 18:25, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Name | Date of birth | Nat | Apps | Goals | Premier League Clubs | Years |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Gary Speed | September 7, 1969 |
![]() |
516 | 78 | Leeds, Everton, Newcastle, Bolton | 1992- |
So, is the years going by when they made their début? Mattythewhite 18:58, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Hows about this:
Name | Nationality | Position | Appearences | Goals | Premier League Clubs | Years |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Gary Speed |
![]() |
MF | 516 | 78 | Leeds, Everton, Newcastle, Bolton | 1992- |
Mattythewhite 19:17, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Looks fine. There is a
flagcountry template for the nation field.
ArtVandelay13
19:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Name | Nationality | Position | Apps | Goals | Premier League Clubs | Years |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Gary Speed |
![]() |
MF | 516 | 78 | Leeds, Everton, Newcastle, Bolton | 1992- |
Got it back to Apps, looks a lot better. Mattythewhite 19:41, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I've got the article created at List of Premier League players. I've got the criteria at 300+ apps - I think all the way down to 200 is possibly too many, and I couldn't really be bothered to do much more. Mattythewhite 12:01, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Also, should current Premier League players be put in bold? And maybe current no longer Premier League players put in italics? Mattythewhite 19:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I've created a WikiProject on Irish football for anyone who is interested in participating or helping out. Danny Invincible Talk| Edits 18:27, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
The Brazilian biographies have become very large, and I've proposed some sub-types. Please comment there if you've a view on the most useful way of doing this. Alai 21:50, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please back me up on the AC Milan article. An editor called Jadger has made a number of bias and unwaranted edits to the article. Basically he states that Milan are best known for Corruption. ANyways, the guy obviously has a bone to grind as he appears to be a Munich fan. Could someone please help me and keep an eye on this article ? Niall123 11:16, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, I was surprised when I read the AC Milan article had no mention of the scandal, so I decided to add it. I agree my wording wasn't exactly the nicest to AC Milan fans, but I agree with the rewording Tangerine used. I think it is a worthy thing to add to the article, after all, can anyone name another G-14 club that has been involved in as many match-fixing scandals?
-- Jadger 17:53, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to add about the above, whilst the scandal is mentioned in more detail in the History section on AC Milan, that is a seperate page. And the main page as it was set out previously, had no mention at all of this. In my opinion there needs to be a short NPOV mention of this in the lead. There is surely a compromise between the two views on this, which is to have it more or less as it is now, with it mentioned briefly as I have tried to amend it to, in the lead. ♦Tangerines BFC ♦· Talk 18:02, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
oldelpaso, that is one occurence between those two teams, whereas AC Milan has been caught twice, God knows how many other times they have done it. I asked if there were any G-14 teams that had been caught as many times as AC Milan.
-- Jadger 18:06, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that the only problem on the match-fixing allegations in the history articles is that it should have a less colloquial style. I mean, Milan drew with many underdogs in matches the should have won, and before they realized it, they were out of the Serie A favourites to win the league title. is not really encyclopedical. CapPixel 09:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi all. I'm having a problem with an anon editor User:62.77.178.117 who keeps changing the placing of the place of birth in Roddy Collins. I don't understand the edit comments about as it's in the infobox it shouldn't be in the text, and then putting in the text next to date of birth. According to the template it should be outside of the date of birth bracket (I have tried pointing the editor to the template page and inviting discussion via my talk page, but s/he communicates via edit comments only), so that's what I've done - I know there are many pages that don't comply with the template, but I try to correct them as I edit for other reasons. Any thoughts on this problem appreciated. It's not a major issue, but what's the point in templates if we don't need to stick to them? WikiGull 09:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Can someone take a look at this? I originally DB-BIO'd it but on reflection I actually don't know enough about the criteria we place on notable sportsmen - do we find schoolboys notable even if they play for the under-15s side of a large club? -- Fredrick day 11:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
No, player must be professional, e.g. play in the first team. Article should be deleted. Mattythewhite 11:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I know that I cleaning out my watchlist and started all over again, I add myself to the participants list, so I want to know what the club articles (or stubs) are needed to be contributed/editing, so contact me anytime and I will help improving the article... Rakuten06 14:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I reverted his absolutely bogus addition to FC Spartak Moscow, but I'm unfaminliar with subjects of other articles he edits as they're related to Iranian football. Could someone inspect his contribs for more factual errors? MaxSem 18:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
There are currently 9 articles listed at WP:MWA#Football that might be of interest to this project. -- Sapphic 20:10, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
There are two articles on seperate footballers called David McNiven - one original and one I created today. I think that David McNiven should be a disambig page, but I am stuck for rename titles: maybe David McNiven (footballer born 1978) and David McNiven (footballer born 1955). Any thoughts/help? Much appreciated, GiantSnowman 20:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
EDIT: I think they may be related - the elder one was playing for Leeds in 1978, and the younger one was born in Leeds in 1978...can anyone support this hunch? GiantSnowman 20:26, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I have moved David McNiven (footballer) to David McNiven (footballer born 1955) and fixed what few pages linked to the old page GiantSnowman 20:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I think this article should be expanded to include every player who has represented England, and not just, as is currently, players who have 25+ caps. Any thoughts/objections? GiantSnowman 20:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Name | Caps | Goals | Date of first cap | Opponents of first cap | Age at first cap | Date of last cap | Opponents of last cap | Age at last cap |
---|
I also think the table should be organised by date of first cap.
Any thoughts? GiantSnowman 15:00, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Number | Name | Date of birth | Caps | Goals | Date of first cap | Opponents of first cap | Venue of first cap | Date of last cap | Opponents of last cap |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | Robert Barker | June 19, 1847 | 1 | 0 | November 30, 1872 |
![]() |
Hamilton Crescent | ||
2 | Ernest Greenhalgh | August 22, 1848 | 2 | 0 | November 30, 1872 |
![]() |
Hamilton Crescent | March 8, 1873 |
![]() |
WikiGull 15:35, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
How about using flags for the opposition then? Adds more information to the table without the wideness problem. Have done it for the first 20 players as below
Let me know what you think - have it stored on a subuser page at the minute. Am happy for that to be the working page until it's a bit more detailed if that helps. WikiGull 16:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Can we reach a consensus on how football seasons are styled in WP articles?
In the article on the British Home Championship I edited the table and text to show seasons in the format 1983-84 but this has been reverted back to the style 1983- 1984.
I had thought that this was clearly stated somewhere in a Manual of Style but I must confess that these are inconsistent. Of the various style manuals listed on WikiProject_Football the only help given is at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Clubs#Achievements which gives the seasons in the format 3332–33, whereas Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Competitions#Past_tournaments.2Fwinners uses the format 3332/33; so no consensus there!
I have therefore had a look at the pages for some of the national leagues which have produced the following results.
England
Scotland
Italy
France
Germany
Spain
As you can see, the position in England and Italy is clear (fairly consistently using 2005-06) and Germany (2005/06), but in France, Scotland and Spain there is no consistency.
I know this subject has come up for discussion before here and briefly again here but neither debate was particularly conclusive nor were there exactly a large number of participants (6 in total over both discussions), so can we have a more lively debate so that a firm consensus can be arrived at and then incorporated into the manual of style?
My preference is clearly for the style 2005-06. Daemonic Kangaroo 18:42, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
In the same vein as Liverpool F.C. Reserves and Arsenal F.C. Reserves, would it be worth starting a Rangers version to trim some information from the main Rangers article? I feel I should ask for opinions on here first as there don't seem to be any similar articles outside the English Premiership. Archibald99 21:21, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Hey project dudes, a new page for you to critique if you'd be so kind. I have an open peer review for it here. As noted in the intro to the PR, I'd like this to be considered in a similar vein to English football champions, Danish football champions and Swedish football champions, all of which are already featured lists. Once again, thanks for you time. The Rambling Man 19:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I think it's fairly clear by now that we're deleting any players who have only played at Conference level or lower. I just wondered what everyone thought about various articles that I've discovered relating to specific conference seasons. These are: Conference National 2006-07 and Conference National Playoff Final 2003 2004, 2005 and 2006. They're all well written articles, but I was wondering whether, having established a clear cut-off point for players, we should also do so for various other articles about the game at this level? Thoughts? HornetMike 15:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
we have a problem with some slovak players
Is this article really a GA? I see no signs of it being reviewed and.. well... its not particularly that good. Mattythewhite 15:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Do we list current article/list candidates in that table? I couldn't find any, nor any spot to put them. Daniel Bryant 00:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I was surprised to see that forward redirected to striker, because the players whose positions I have listed as the former in the past definitely aren't strikers, in my opinion. I thought I'd mention the somewhat dusty discussion here. - Dudesleeper · Talk 11:11, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Hey, please, please add comments (and hopefully support!) to the nomination for promoting Italian football champions to featured list status. You can find the discussion here. Thanks for your time. The Rambling Man 16:30, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi gents
Inspired by our friends from East Anglia, I've spent the last couple of days working hard on the article on my club, Gillingham, adding references, editing the text, removing pointless stuff, and so on. I was wondering if people could take a look at it and see how close they think it now is to promotion to the dizzy heights of Good Article and beyond. I appreciate that I still need to correctly format all the refs with {{cite}} templates but I'll get to that shortly, I can't face it at the moment :-) But any other comments would be much appreciated!
Cheers!!
ChrisTheDude 21:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
"gents"? Is this only limited to male wikipedians then? (only kidding) ♦Tangerines BFC ♦· Talk 21:19, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I recommend you put it up for peer review. Looks like a very good job you've got done there so far. Mattythewhite 21:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to add a well done on that article, much better than a number of other English club articles in my opinion. ♦Tangerines BFC ♦· Talk 22:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
This might be more of a village pump question, but I thought I'd try here first. What's the score with using programme covers to illustrate articles on clubs, etc? As far as I can tell from looking at the various image tags, if they were to be classed as magazines then they could only be used to illustrate an article on the magazine itself and, let's face it, nobody's going to create Manchester United's programme. Alternatively if you cheat a bit and class them as event "posters" then they could only be used for articles on the specific event i.e. the match itself, which only works for a notable match like a final. So as far as I can see they can't be used in articles on clubs - am I right.....? ChrisTheDude 22:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
As the time approaches when we'll be making up end-of-season league tables, I thought I'd re-open this discussion from a few months back about creating a standard league table format. Any thoughts? HornetMike 00:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
User:Cintrianex has created some articles on the cups run by various lowly leagues, such as the Northern Counties East Football League Wilkinson Sword Trophy and even the West Riding County Amateur Football League Division Two Cup - are competitions like this really notable.......? ChrisTheDude 20:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with the current criteria of notability of athletes; more specifically that of youth footballers.
Notability meriting an article in Wikipedia seem to stipulate first team appearences.
I would suggest that:
1. Being a member of a youth international team (such as Gavin Hoyte, Fran Mérida and Nacer Barazite of Arsenal) merits notability in it's own right, or at least under under the criteria of athlete notability p2: "Competitors who have played or competed at the highest level in amateur sports" (or in analogy thereof).
2. Prominent members of important youth academies merits notability in the same way as above.
It can´t seriously be argued that a player who has made a couple of appearences for a League 2 team is more notable than a player such as Bojan Krkic, Giovani dos Santos, Fran Mérida etc wich most probably will be playing first team football (if not already be big stars) in just a few years. Look at the attention G. dos Santos' selection of national team or proposed transfer has attracted in the football community. Or look at Theo Walcott who was included in the english WC squad without having played for the Arsenal first team. He never played during the WC, so before his first team debut at Arsenal, was it only his appearences for Southampton in the Championship that merited an article about him? Surely not!
There are players in a youth international squad that may never turn professional, but at the same time there are players that with high probability (on the verge of certainty) will be first team players if not big stars. I'm not saying that membership of a youth national squad automatically constitutes notability. My point is that there are youth players that may haven't yet broken in to the first team at a big club such as Arsenal or Barcelona, but nevertheless still are more notable than a player that may have appeared for a low-level first team such as Accrington. The requirement of first team football shouldn't be carved in stone. BTW ""fran merida" arsenal" generated 44,100 hits on Google, ""robert grant" accrington" generated 294. Se [[==Prominent youth footballers==
I disagree with the current criteria of notability of athletes; more specifically that of youth footballers.
Notability meriting an article in Wikipedia seem to stipulate first team appearences.
I would suggest that:
1. Being a member of a youth international team (such as Gavin Hoyte, Fran Mérida and Nacer Barazite of Arsenal) merits notability in it's own right, or at least under under the criteria of athlete notability p2: "Competitors who have played or competed at the highest level in amateur sports" (or in analogy thereof).
2. Prominent members of important youth academies merits notability in the same way as above.
It can´t seriously be argued that a player who has made a couple of appearences for a League 2 team is more notable than a player such as Bojan Krkic, Giovani dos Santos, Fran Mérida etc wich most probably will be playing first team football (if not already be big stars) in just a few years. Look at the attention G. dos Santos' selection of national team or proposed transfer has attracted in the football community. Or look at Theo Walcott who was included in the english WC squad without having played for the Arsenal first team. He never played during the WC, so before his first team debut at Arsenal, was it only his appearences for Southampton in the Championship that merited an article about him? Surely not!
There are players in a youth international squad that may never turn professional, but at the same time there are players that with high probability (on the verge of certainty) will be first team players if not big stars. I'm not saying that membership of a youth national squad automatically constitutes notability. My point is that there are youth players that may haven't yet broken in to the first team at a big club such as Arsenal or Barcelona, but nevertheless still are more notable than a player that may have appeared for a low-level first team such as Accrington. The requirement of first team football shouldn't be carved in stone. BTW ""fran merida" arsenal" generated 44,100 hits on Google, ""robert grant" accrington" generated 294. See [ notability] talkpage for discussion. Sebisthlm 16:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Should we also consider including Good Article Candidates on the "Featured and good articles" section in the main WikiProject page? Currently on WP:GAC there are at least three football-related nominees ( Arjen Robben, Liverpool F.C. and U.S. Città di Palermo). -- Angelo 13:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
There is a sourced statement on the Rangers F.C. article saying Rangers are the most successful club in the world in terms of trophies won, but apparently Linfield F.C. have a claim to this, although there are doubts about whether or not some of Linfield's trophies are "first-class". Could a consensus be reached as to which is correct? WATP 20:08, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Is it the sort of thing that might be on the FIFA website? ♦Tangerines BFC ♦· Talk 21:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I'd appreciate it if someone with knowledge about image-use on Wikipedia could take a look at this. Something doesn't sit right with me about its fair use (especially since the person who uploaded it kicked up a fuss about its non-inclusion in Shearer's article). Thanks. - Dudesleeper · Talk 09:21, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/The Rambling Man (signed as a member of this Project under his previous name, Budgiekiller). Whichever way you choose to !vote, I would be glad if you would indicate your membership of this WikiProject. -- Dweller 16:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Something I learned yesterday that I thought is worth mentioning here. If an article has no references but was written from information at Soccerbase, Neil Brown's site, etc. (see Ian Gore, for example), we're supposed to put that URL in the references section, not the external links, per WP:Cite (All items used as sources in the article must be listed in the "References" or "Notes" section, and are not included in "Further reading" or "External links").
Some of you likely knew this. I didn't, however. - Dudesleeper · Talk 15:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I believe I have seen this problem commented on somewhere before, but just to heads-up and recruit if possible. There are currently countless articles with Wikilinks to the wrong Wembley (for instance, in [[1966]], [[England national football team|England]] won the [[FIFA World Cup 1966|World Cup]] at [[Wembley Stadium|Wembley]]. The correct reference is [[Wembley Stadium (1924)|Wembley]].
I have recently set about the task, and would urge those of you who don't get bored too easily to give us a hand! There are thousands to get through.
I go to this page, and click on one of the many links to articles supposedly to do with New Wembley. I then set up Internet Explorer to 'Find' [[Wembley Stadium, find next, and this shows me the reference. If it is retrospective (i.e. a record of what happened in the past at the old stadium), it needs changing to "(1924)". If it is predictive (i.e. a future event at the new stadium), it stays as 'New Wembley', if you see what I mean. I always leave an edit summary ("amend wembley reference") to guard against accusations of vandalism.
Any help would be appreciated. Best wishes. Refsworldlee (chew-fat) (eds) 21:11, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Some input from other parties required at Talk:Argentina_and_England_football_rivalry#Mocking_Photo_removed. Jooler 07:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Is it possible that the above article could be changed so that only registered users are allowed to edit? For a few days I have been working on the article as it has been a mess, and had clear bias, POV, weasel words etc. I have removed whole sections which were unsourced and replaced them with sourced information. I have also working on removing bias, POC etc. It is though a gradual process, but I am being hampered by what seems to be one anonymous user who keeps disrupting all this, and not be assisting, but by both adding vandalism (stating that Celtic FC fans are nazis for instance) and by deleting whole sections without reason and keeps adding words such as psychotic (spelt psycotic) to describe the English, Serbian and Germans, and also keeps adding stuff such as hyper-violent, manic, mentally unbalanced, pathetic etc etc to describe England.
I have tried to reason with the user to no avail. And each time I find the vandalism and change it, the user comes back again and does more. If the article is to be brought into some sort of order and be neutral then it would help if only registered users were allowed to edit. There are some sections which are bias and the user has my sympathy in that there in parts appears to be clear bias, but it is a work-in-progress. The user appears under a number of unregistered users - 86.29.251.56, 86.25.48.201, 86.25.50.25, 86.29.253.97, 86.29.255.209, 86.29.245.93 - all of which appear to be the same user. Thanks ♦Tangerines BFC ♦· Talk 18:44, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I have recently been editing or creating articles about players or seasons from the Victorian era, when the concept of 4-4-2 etc. was unheard of. In those days, players played in positions such as "Centre-half" or "inside-left" and the standard formation was 2-3-5 i.e. 2 fullbacks (right and left), 3 half-backs (right, left and centre) and 5 forwards (inside & outside right & left, plus centre-forward).
The article on Football (soccer) positions describes modern positions, but when writing about a Victorian centre-half, should this be linked to midfielder or to defender? (It should be somewhere in the middle.) Ideally, there should be an article explaining former positions and formations to which articles about the early days of football can be linked. Is there anyone out there who feels competent/knowledgeable to create this? Daemonic Kangaroo 12:42, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
User:Nadia Kittel has returned from his earlier ban as User:Fox53 to again agrandize his team's site, add fringe material, apply eccentric formatting, and insert poor quality or un-sourced images. He has removed informative image captions simply to make logo images bigger (also then taking them out of context), and continues to insert poor-quality unsourced images that don't really add anything to the article. As a matter of fact, he's taken to plastering the same poor quality image of the FDGB Pokal (East German Cup) all over any page representing a cup winner, despite the fact that historically there were multiple versions of the trophy - he can't be bothered to do any research or find anything better, even though its out there. He was also recently warned off using this approach in editing articles about the SS - but doesn't get it. Given his previous edit history this will likely shape up into another attempt to turn an encyclopedia article into a tribute page.
To his credit he did add a useful literature section and some other minor stuff, and did some decent work on German hockey teams, but still doesn't seem to understand that this is not a Dynamo/East Germany tribute site. And, oh yeah, check out his un-varnished opinion of me on his talk page. I'm tired of this guy's approach and have used up two R's at BFC today. Help, please! Wiggy! 19:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted to bring the above article to the attention of a wider audience. I can't help but feel there are obvious inclusions missing. - Dudesleeper · Talk 02:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if any one else has mentioned/suggested this, but why not condense each team's season-by-season history into decades, in the style used by the Baseball WikiProject for an individual MLB season ( example). Would perhaps make the pages more managable? Nightfreak 14:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
This edit seems to have created a massive amount of whiteyellow-space in the template. I don't want to straight-out revert the edits, as that would actually break some of the templates with the irish=yes bit, but could someone try and rectify the situation to remove the big empty space in it? Cheers,
Daniel Bryant
08:21, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
some editor made a nonsense article about a hoax manager [ here]. Please remove it. 80.58.205.35 14:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
The recent actions by SPUJ ( talk · contribs) raise an interesting question: should football articles list the current strip (with coloured shoulders etc. as appropriate for the current strip), or a general one with merely the colours (as shoulder designs etc. change frequently)? Thoughts appreciated. Daniel Bryant 12:55, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
FYI, SPUJ has been banned as a sockpuppet of blocked user Panairjdde (who, along with other sockpuppets like Kwame Nkrumah some of you might remember). But to chime in, if there are people who are willing to show more accurate depictions of the current kits, and keep them up (and there are many who are doing just that), then there really is no good reason to keep attempting to cut back the designs to main colours. Lexicon (talk) 20:23, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that minor trim details are arguably non encyclopedic. Football reference works will give the club colours for a given team in simplified form. So should we. -- Dweller 10:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I personally think the kits should be patterned to the nearest non-unique equivalent pattern in the template - and if a new pattern begins to be commonly used (i.e. the Reebok spikes), it too should be added to the template. I can kinda see the point of the reversions on, say, Adelaide United (which I would have changed to probably red with an existing Reebok spike pattern) but insisting on plain/ "main colour" kits is just silly. I kept a similar attitude to the A-League kits last year - some people would, say, insist the Melbourne Victory kit be an exact pictorial replica, others wanted it as plain navy blue - I kept it as navy blue with the kit template's _whitesides pattern. 144.133.75.163 12:55, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
User:Doma-w has been creating a lot of articles on individual matches from the Olympic games like this one. What's the consensus on articles on individual games? I can understand articles for, say, World Cup Finals, but is this editor going to find their hard work removed if someone decides to AfD this lot? and if so, might it better to warn them now before s/he wastes any more effort? Cheers, EliminatorJR Talk 14:51, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I strongly support the deletion of these particular (non-)articles. Punkmorten 20:14, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I was looking at the above earlier today (nice work, Johan Elisson) and thought it might be time to bring it more in line with what's actually going into club articles, if that doesn't sound backwards. I've seen elements in several articles that I think would be worthwhile introducing into more articles (though, of course, I'm drawing a blank as I type). I'll refer to the relevant discussion page when they occur to me, and I'd urge others to do the same. With close-seasons almost upon us, it would be a good time to get club articles tidied up, but we'll always have our work cut out with player articles, of course (Eufa Cup, indeed). - Dudesleeper · Talk 19:36, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
While we're on the subject of manuals of style, perhaps we should create one for the club season articles which have been starting to appear lately. I've been working on Bristol Rovers F.C. season 2006-07, and I've noticed that the other articles at Category:English_football_club_seasons all seem to have different styles, content, and naming conventions. Perhaps some kind of standardisation needs to be agreed on? Gasheadsteve 17:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
What do people think about creating a list of football teams in cities e.g. London, Rio de Janiero, Buenos Airies etc. This woule be especially relevant for South American countries, as teams are rarely named after their home city. GiantSnowman 19:17, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
This forum thread got me thinking: should we perhaps start an article with a list of relatives involved in football? We could include the Schmiechels, Nevilles, Davids, Seerdorfs, Terrys etc. GiantSnowman 19:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I recently added Template:Football League Championship, Template:Football League One and Template:Football League Two teamlist to my watchlist, anticipating people adding teams to their promoted/relegated league in advance, as happened last year. Now, they're quite patently getting edited, but they're not showing up on my watchlist and their history shows no record of the edits. Am I going mad? HornetMike 20:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
This user returned changing the header style on the football squad template set, now removing at all every single colour from the table. The result was terribly ugly at my eyes, and as this is not the first time he acts this way I reverted all his edits. Please look in particular at the Fs start and Fs mid templates.-- Angelo 17:24, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Reopened discussion here. Please state your opinion there. – Elisson • T • C • 16:17, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
One of the most irritating things is the number of minor five-a-side, student or pub teams (especially from the UK) who add vanity articles about themselves in. Sometimes it's a case of luck in finding them, but I've come up with a way of spotting most of them and thought I should pass it on. Special:Whatlinkshere sorts articles by their addition date, and as most authors of these articles mimic the big clubs' articles by using the {{ Infobox Football club}} template, by checking the end of the list of articles that transclude it (e.g. with this link) any recently-added articles about non-notable teams can be picked up. I have the above link as a bookmark and check once a day to identify any non-notable teams from the UK and speedy tag them with {{ db-club}} for deletion (aside - this should always be used as the first option with pages like these - AfDs should only be used as a last resort. I'm getting tired of patently non-notable teams going to AfD without speedy or prod tried first so please bear this in mind, thanks).
Anyway, I stay clear of most other countries other than the UK though as I am not sure what counts as notable there, but other members of the Wikiproject will know better than I and might be able to use it for non-notable teams from their respective countries. Hope this proves useful to some of you. Qwghlm 10:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Unrelated to the above, there is a discussion ongoing on Wikipedia talk:Notability (people) with respect to Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people)/Archive_5#Regarding_notability_of_Football_.28soccer.29_players. Please feel free to add your input 84.9.81.110 17:40, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
The disambiguation page for the name " Werner" lists three men named "Werner Roth", and two of them are associated with football (soccer):
The American player is Serbian-born, and notable on several levels, according to the page on him (above) and the List of American soccer players with dual nationality, though that page seems lacking. Isn't there a soccer infobox?.
Also, does anyone know anything about the German coach? He's listed on Karlsruher SC's page, but is he notable enough to have his own page? If so, please add biographical and other info to his page. I just created it as a stub. Fredwerner 03:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC) Fredwerner 03:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Should we add that controversy which nearly affected Man United? KyleR Giggs 15:15, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi, following concerns raised on the talk page of Huddersfield Town I thought I'd start a new conversation on celebrity fans. I've had discussions with a couple of Wikipedians in the past, and there's bits and pieces against it on various pages across the WikiProject. But it'd be healthy to get a new consensus. As far as I'm concerned, lists of celebrity fans should be removed from club articles as it's information more about the person than the club. That Watford is supported by Brian Conolly or whoever is not the sort of stuff for a main page article. In my view they should go even if they are sourced, as they are on Huddersfield, but especially if they're not. Anyway, thoughts? HornetMike 09:34, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
(de-indent) By that logic a "notable players" list would consist of every player in Category:Example F.C. players. For a lot of clubs such a supporters list would be huge (given that in many cases "support" is merely them once being referred to as a supporter in a printed publication or on TV), which would end up something like this. See also the likes of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Arsenal F.C. Supporters. Sure, Elissons sticky toffee pudding example was reductio ad absurdium, but I doubt you'd see a section listing famous fans of, say, Coldplay. Oldelpaso 16:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I just had a look at Sunderland A.F.C. and I think it needs a clean up, it's slightly different to the normal norm we have. Just thought a few people might be interested in bring it up to scratch. Regards, Govvy 13:45, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I see that all club articles have lists of 'Notable players'. This is entirely POV and fails WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE- one person's list of notable players will be different to another person's. What is needed to comply with WP policy is some clear criteria. I suggest that 'Notable players' is replaced by 'Full and u-21 internationals' but am receptive to argument as to different criteria. BlueValour 23:38, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
I led a call to remove the notable players list the Liverpool F.C. article in July 2006 where we came to a consensus to do it. Later, the section was replaced with its current form, which is a few paragraphs of prose about various record holders — much better in my eyes. aLii 12:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I've started to notice an increasing prevalence of assist columns appearing in player's stats boxes. I was wondering if anyone could point to any sites that had reliable data on them? I just deleted the assist stats from the Steven Gerrard article, because I wanted to update them, but had no idea where to find the relevent info. I'm not against having such info in articles, but I'd like to know where it's coming from. aLii 12:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC)