![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
A new user has created new articles on Robin Goldstein and Fearless Critic which relate to the guy who pranked Wine Spectator's restaurant awards program. I removed some cruft advert for Fearless Critic as well as material sourced to Goldstein's self published blog from Wine Spectator but it may be worthwhile to take an objective look at all these articles. Both seem to be very borderline on notability. Agne Cheese/ Wine 16:25, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
I forgot to ask before the conversation concluded. What is a good rule of thumb for the number of reviews needed in order to successfully re-approach Captûre Wines' notability? I hope you could add some clarity to this concept. Thanks. RonaldMcWendys ( talk) 17:20, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
(outdent)
I hate to say this, but this latest response gives me the feeling that your conflict of interest has caused you to place more importance on promoting this winery than on building an encyclopedia. Wikipedia isn't a channel for promotions. Wineries (or any companies) must gain visibility without Wikipedia's help. It is likely to take much longer for this winery to achieve sufficient importance for article inclusion, especially in light of the deletion discussions above pertaining to other wineries.
Regarding the sources, one is irrelevant, but the other may be relevant:
I don't know the answers. Any thoughts from the community here? ~ Amatulić ( talk) 17:55, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Trapiche (winery) is an article I have drafted and currently have posted to my user subspace. While building the article and preparing it for moving it into the main space, I have carefully followed WP:NOR, WP:SPAM, WP:NOT as well as WP:COI, because Trapiche is a client of my employer. For that reason, I would like an uninvolved editor to review the article. If it needs work before it can be approved, please let me know. If it meets Wikipedia's standards and can be moved, please move it or let me know if I can.
One more note: I see there is a related discussion involving another winery happening on this page today, though it appears to me the circumstances of each winery is very different. However, please let me know if you have any concerns or questions. Thanks. Nanorlb ( talk) 18:32, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
New article Tre Bicchieri. I confess that I've never heard of this before. Agne Cheese/ Wine 04:35, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Interesting new article Clos (vineyard). At first glance it looks like a wikitionary entry on the dict def of Clos. Then it sort of becomes a "List of Clos vineyards". I don't know if this article has much potential for expansion or if it should be merged into vineyard. Thoughts? Agne Cheese/ Wine 07:39, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Over at Talk:Muscadet, Tomas and I have been working with anon editor for the past few days with a bit of difficulties. The anon is quite passionate about the article but at the root of problem I suspect is just a lack of familiarity about Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. The anon seems quite determined to add their own personal knowledge and opinion to the article while Tomas and I are trying to steer his energy and enthusiasm towards finding reliable sources to cite rather than rely on his/her personal knowledge and OR. We're making some progress and the anon has been improving their use of citing referencing but I suspect he/she would benefit having an uninvolved "mentor". As Tomas and I have been in dialog with them we no longer qualify as "uninvolved". I'm confident that an amicable resolution will eventually be reached but some unbias voices are always helpful. Agne Cheese/ Wine 04:27, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Last week I asked for advice on getting approval for a prospective Trapiche (winery) article. In response to Agne’s advice on how to improve it, I have reviewed WP:WINEGUIDE and made a few changes. As requested, I have incorporated the links to Mendoza wine and Argentine wine into the Trapiche article.
As for the list of Additional brands, I believe its inclusion is merited, as it describes the range of products under the Trapiche label (and it is not a list of "best" Vintages, as discouraged in WP:WINEGUIDE). I also added an explanatory sentence with a citation to underline this fact. I welcome any further advice on this point.
But, if this is ready to move into the mainspace, I'm happy to do that or let someone else do it. -- Nanorlb ( talk) 20:15, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
I did a quick cleanup on this article ( Albana_(grape), but I think there's something not right about the image. Should it not be in the Commons, and have a proper link? I'm afraid I don't know how to fix it. -- BodegasAmbite ( talk) 13:59, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I've no idea! It was user Lavamar (talk contribs) wot dunnit! He or she inserted the photo shortly after I did the cleanup.-- BodegasAmbite ( talk) 15:23, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
The anon IP 71.139.4.218 has been adding Category:Cuisine of the Western United States to a number of articles, including California wine, Category:California wine , and Wine Country (California). I don't think the categorization is appropriate for the latter two, and I don't know about the first (is there a precedent here)? What do y'all think? Dori ❦ ( Talk ❖ Contribs ❖ Review) ❦ 23:56, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I would say that wine is related (very closely) to cuisine, but not an actual part of it. I understand the core meaning of 'cuisine' to basically be the preparation of food. There's also the 'practical' aspect to this question, ie tagging several thousand wine articles would be time-consuming (or would a bot do that?) and, more importantly, it wouldn't serve any purpose. I think all humans (even the millions that don't drink wine) are already aware that wine is closely related to cuisine. I vote for no tagging! -- BodegasAmbite ( talk) 10:32, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello oeno-folks, I wonder if I fell asleep over a unusually long time some months ago (early February 2009, to be more precise) and stopped keeping watch over certain grape articles. The reason why I ask is called
Template:Infobox wine grape variety, which was created on February 2, 2009 by
TimR (
talk ·
contribs). Now, several of you are going to say "No, that's not true, we've had that infobox a lot longer". But what you're thinking about is
Template:Infobox grape variety (notice the lack of the word "wine"), which goes back to just shortly after grapes were first trodden by man to make wine, or more precisely, March 20, 2007. I discovered this because I just added an infobox for
Sacy (grape), which I simply took and modified from
Chardonnay, and I didn't get it to display the parameter for the grape's origin that I added. The reason turned out to be that this new template has no parameter for origin, or for species, for that part. Looking at which varieties that use the new template
[5] (they are few but include some very well known ones), I just can't believe that I missed that the existing infobox was replaced in e.g.
Syrah with one that omits these central parameters.
So I must ask if I missed a project discussion in early Febrary that reached consensus that 1) ampelographic information like species, pedigree and origin is not interesting to display in infoboxes on grapes, and 2) the project should have duplicate infoboxes for the same things?
If not, I suggest that the seven varieties now using this template be relieved from it as soon as possible, and the template is put up for deletion. Thoughts?
Tomas e (
talk)
17:27, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Has anyone been following the deletion discussion here: [ [6]] The consensus is going towards Keep, because recently an author slapped 12 references onto the articles it it now looks weel referenced. I've actually checked them all out: half are not available for viewing (you have to pay or subscribe) and the other half are passing mentions in related fields (tourism, cuisine, etc) Not a single source has any actual content, let alone notable content.-- BodegasAmbite ( talk) 14:13, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello, I just had a look at another infobox, Template:Infobox Australian winery. While there's nothing wrong to its existence as such, I noticed the last three of its parameters:
This sort of seems a bit too much of a WP:WINEGUIDE or even a tourist guide to me. Should we really have infoboxes with these parameters? Tomas e ( talk) 13:48, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
While we are at it, you better look here also, [7] I say keep but as always, I can be convinced I'm wrong :-) -- Stefan talk 01:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Sheesh, another winery article. Another issue. :/ User:Kvice has been adding massive amount of unsourced info that was apparently approved and " provided by the winery itself" according to the edit summary and confession on my talk page. I've tried to point the user to the relevant policies, including WP:COI policy but this is something to keep an eye on. Agne Cheese/ Wine 16:45, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
check this one out please: Palotai Vineyard and Winery. Reads like a blatant advert, but I haven't proposed it for deletion (yet). Maybe the author (with possible COI) can dredge up some notability! -- BodegasAmbite ( talk) 10:38, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
I placed the prod on that article. I still believe that the WP:CORP concerns have not been addressed, but I'll wait a week or so before going to a formal deletion proposal.
The topic of winery notability has received a lot of attention in this Wikipedia Wine project lately. I would like to see Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a wine guide upgraded from essay to guideline status, because it is a guideline document that makes a lot of sense. It already contains a detailed section on winery notability, which serves as an excellent extension to WP:CORP.
I have created the shortcuts WP:WINERY and WP:WINERIES to point to that section, for future reference. ~ Amatulić ( talk) 21:18, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I created a new article for Croatian wine and would appreciate a review by the more experienced Wiki authors amongst us. One issue is that I don't seem to be able to get Croatia listed in the "wine by country" category box - obviously I'd like to. Thanks! Farscot ( talk) 16:11, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
While doing some housekeeping I came across Connecticut Wine Trail. Looking at some of the WP:NOTABILITY guidelines, I really couldn't find anything for "tourist trails" or the like. Searching online provides scant referencing outside of very trivial mentions in local newspapers. Considering that nearly every US AVA or wine area has a "wine trail" of sorts, perhaps we should discuss what makes wine routes like the German Wine Route notable verses these smaller AVAs, etc. Agne Cheese/ Wine 06:18, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello all! I subscribed this project up for the article alerts bot which will search all namespaces with the {{ wine}} template and make a daily record of changes including Prod, AfD, GAN, FAN etc... Once it gets going in a day or so I will update the main page so it displays the changes automatically. Furthermore you will be able to monitor changes by watching the Wikipedia:WikiProject Wine/Article alerts page.
Hopefully this can help us all keep up on the many changes that are occuring each day in the wine field here on WP.
-- Jeremy ( blah blah) 07:47, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I will reset the page so it is prominent under the article information section of the page. -- Jeremy ( blah blah) 01:09, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Per the instructions on WP:GUIDE, I propose that the essay Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a wine guide be promoted from essay to guideline, with WP:CORP as its parent.
Please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia is not a wine guide#Proposal to promote from essay to guideline. Thanks. ~ Amatulić ( talk) 21:49, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
As I noted on the talk page, I do think WP:WINEGUIDE needs to be rewritten and brought up to date. Especially over the last year its usage and focus has shifted along with consensus opinion regarding WP:CORP, winery articles and notability in general. As a project, we've had a lot of discussions on this page and at various AfDs. with some clear consensus views forming that should be solidified in WP:WINEGUIDE. How about we create Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a wine guide/Draft revision and focus in on some key details like....
Of course there are somethings we want to carry over from the current version of WP:WINEGUIDE like the restaurant test but maybe we should move some of the "style" issues regarding wine lists and vintages, etc to a separate article? Agne Cheese/ Wine 04:06, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
I have split out and expanded the notability portion into a new article Wikipedia:Notability (wine topics). There are sections to be expanded on wine, winemakers, wineries, regions, and competitions. There should probably be a section on tourism attractions too. Please expand. ~ Amatulić ( talk) 21:58, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Coming across Concha y Toro reminded me of a comment that Tomas made a couple weeks ago in the section above Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Wine#Criteria_for_notability_of_a_winery about "I'm more worried about winery articles written like advertisements than those that are borderline cases when it comes to notability". The Concha y Toro article is a great example here. It is clearly a notable winery but it has a lot of "sneaky POV". It is not screaming out as a sales brochure but the descriptions of the individual wines and vineyards are very clearly written like something you expect to see in a wineguide or in a distributor's sales write up sheet. The "referenced" material (courtesy of the winery's own website) on the Casillero del Diablo wine tells you that it "is medium bodied with smooth and friendly tannins and lingering finish. It has hints of plums and cherries and a generous touch of toasted American oak" and so on. Now with all our time being very limited and precious, Tomas' words above have me thinking. As Wikipedia grows it seems like wineries are becoming more and more of a headache and the source of our biggest problems-be it notability, POV or COI. Going forward this project does need a game plan on how to handle all these issues. Agne Cheese/ Wine 06:35, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I have also subscribed the group to WolterBot. WolterBot goes through WP:Wine articles tallying all articles that have a clean up tag of one type or another ({{ wikify}}, {{ citations}} etc...) and cataloging them. This should help with the Improvement drive as we can now get a handle on those articles in most need of help. This list is updated roughly bi-monthly.
-- Jeremy ( blah blah) 01:23, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I have rearranged Agne's essay WP:WINEGUIDE so that the style stuff and notability stuff are cleanly separable, then I moved the notability part to a new article:
I have included several additional sections beyond just wineries that may have notability concerns. A couple are still blank, and others can use further expansion.
Please participate, get involved, make edits, and discuss on Wikipedia talk:Notability (wine topics), especially if you disagree with anything. Overall, though, I think it's off to a good start. ~ Amatulić ( talk) 00:54, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone think we have a strong case to get Muscat (grape and wine) moved to Muscat as the Primary Topic? The closest contender is the city in Oman but in the English language it seems that the most common usage of the term is in relation to the grapes and wine. Agne Cheese/ Wine 06:21, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
See Tempra Tantrum and Osborne Group. -- Stefan talk 02:56, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
While this project's articles have had their fair share of linkspam and "commercial POV", I haven't seen that much political/ethnical POV-pushing, which is good. However, we now have a case of an editor called Mttll ( talk · contribs) who has tried to move Turkey from (Minor) Asia to Europe in the List of wine-producing regions, citing Cyprus as his tit-for-tat argument. (Sigh.) It's a user who has already been blocked, and who seem to be a POV-pusher in general rather than someone interested in wine, and doesn't seem to be interested in taking advice or writing NPOV. I think he'll try again, so I wouldn't mind if a couple of more editors keeps an eye on this list. Tomas e ( talk) 16:17, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
See Randy_Caparoso, seams to be resonably well written, with claims of possible notability, but possible WP:COI and notability issues. Comments? -- Stefan talk 09:03, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Its nomination at Did you know is being held up for copy-editing concerns. As this is certainly not my forte, any help from more grammatically inclined editors would be appreciated :p Agne Cheese/ Wine 07:39, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Now User:AlexNewArtBot is running for wine pages, see User:AlexNewArtBot/WineSearchResult for a filtered list (watchlist this) and User:AlexNewArtBot/WineLog for all logs. If you want to help tweak the search terms, please help at User:AlexNewArtBot/Wine, it is still a work in progress, but think it starts to be useful, but expect lots of false hits. This is a good way to find new COI and low notability articles. -- Stefan talk 03:32, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Someone is pretty hardcore about getting Pollak Vineyards some free WP:ADVERT on Wikipedia. First User:Mollygibbs tried several times to add the redlink to the Monticello AVA, when that was deleted. She then create a quick copy vio article so that the link would turn blue. That article won't be around long and looking online, I'm not sure if a referenced, pov article can be written. Agne Cheese/ Wine 02:42, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
The Penedès article has run aground somewhat during the last six months, largely I think due to the confusion surrounding the wine region as a linked-but-separate entity with the administrative area. I've been involved off & on with the
vegueria article in which the highly confusing political situation there, following the 2006 declaration of the reintroduction of the vegueria system of government, has led to speculation that the Penedès may one again become a unified province.
Here's the thing: technically, there's no such place as Penedès just yet, making it hard to justify a separate article. A lot of its geographical and historical detail is intertwined with the wine region geography and history and I'm very tempted to properly combine the two facets of Penedès in the one article, at least until such time as the vegueria actually comes into existence again, at which point it can probably be split off if necessary.
I've re-jigged the article to see if this works and posted it as a sub-page to my user page
here. I think it does work – just – but it's an unusual one as wine articles go. I'd appreciate your comments before I replace the existing page with this draft. --
mikaul
talk
12:57, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I noticed these varietals don't have articles. ChildofMidnight ( talk) 19:06, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
If I were going to write up an article on John Williams the winemaker, what would the expected article title be? John Williams (wine), John Williams (winemaker), or something else? Thanks. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 18:27, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Hey guys, there is a new "Google for wine" search engine out Able Grape that looks to be a pretty nifty tool for finding some reliable sources to use in wine articles. While not every link that shows up would qualify as an RS, it sure is better than just searching Google. I recommend wine project members bookmarking the link. Agne Cheese/ Wine 22:47, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Once again a litany of editors have added their personal favorite grape or wine region to the template diminishing, in my view, its usefulness. Templates are not meant to catalog every possible article that can be included in a category but rather the major articles that contain links to these other articles. My thoughts are that the template is getting too big and including too many grapes and regions that should be just represented with links to List of grape varieties and List of wine-producing regions. Other thoughts? Agne Cheese/ Wine 03:18, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Discussion about capitalization and including mention of other products using the term "Grand cru". All opinions and viewpoints welcomed. Agne Cheese/ Wine 06:34, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
User:Dcousino, apparently connected with the winery Cousino Macul, is pretty gosh darn determined to put a photo of his wine in the Chilean wine article. Now if this photo was an improvement over the existing photo (such as including an actual glass of wine or grapes with the bottle), then I might be incline to overlook the clear WP:COI because it would improve the article. But replacing one bottle pic with another for the sole benefit of promoting your company is clearly crossing the line. Agne Cheese/ Wine 01:14, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
User:Robert Parker aperantly joint our project...-- Symposiarch ( talk) 13:57, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
This is the proposed naming convention on cuisines that has been percolating for some time, I would like to request all members to please take a look and comment on its talk page. This is a very important rule set that needs to be decided upon, if you wish to establish or please comment under the appropriate section. -- Jeremy ( blah blah • I did it!) 07:28, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
An article on the Burgundy winery
Bonneau du Martray was recently added by one of our project members,
Camw (
talk ·
contribs). It's a good and properly referenced article, and this project would have much less "winery headache" if all winery articles were written like it. Nevertheless, it included a final section which consisted of
Clive Coates general opinions about two of their wines (though not vintage-specific) and
Hugh Johnson's star rating (four) for the winery, all referenced. I felt that this section went against
WP:WINEGUIDE and therefore removed it. Camw disagreed and pointed out that the quotes are not vintage specific reviews per the section in WP:WINEGUIDE, but comments from independent notable authors on the estate itself and its standing, that contribute to assertation of notability. Also, reviews from critics are included in articles in articles covering many other subjects, and WP:WINEGUIDE mentions parallels to restaurants.
Since Camw rightly pointed out that WP:WINEGUIDE is an opinion, I would like to see if we can reach some sort of project consensus on the issue of reporting this kind of winery and wine ratings in articles, as this could be valuable and possibly be included in
Wikipedia:Notability (wine topics).
My opinion on this matter goes like this:
Other thoughts? And, by the way, I'm sure that there is material that should be removed from various existing winery articles if you were to agree with me. Tomas e ( talk) 11:25, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
The problem with referencing wine critics is that there are literally dozens of wine critics of equal stature, esteem and notability and many times these critics disagree which brings us conflicts of WP:UNDUE and WP:POV criticism. This is a far different circumstance than in the restaurant world where Michelin is pretty much unparalleled. (Though in all honesty, I personally think Michelin's use is overdone in restaurant articles anyways) I agree with Tomas' point that views of critics is content that you normally don't see in encyclopedias (like the Oxford Companion) - which really goes to the heart of what WP:Wikipedia is not a wineguide is all about. As a project we have to make a decision about how we are going to present wine related content. Are we an encyclopedia or a wineguide? As an encyclopedist, my view is that we should focus on the facts (i.e. more or less objective statements) and leave the color commentary to other websites. Agne Cheese/ Wine 14:31, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Hey guys, I just finished an article on Wine and health which I submitted for WP:DYK consideration. I tried really hard to keep it as NPOV and balanced as I could showing both the positive and negative attributes associated with wine consumption and health. Considering the drama that the French Paradox and Resveratrol articles have seen over the years, I suspect there maybe some issues once this article hits the front page-especially for those who take a hardline view against alcohol in general. I figure the more neutral and factual we can keep this article, the better. Any additional eyes and tweaking would be greatly appreciated. Agne Cheese/ Wine 08:17, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
POV is ok by me, but I'm sure other will have issues. A non POV issue, beeing used to metric units I have no idea what soever how many cl a 5 ounce glass is, and since ounce is a mass unit and cl is volume it gets even more complicated (why would you measure wine in weight???), what is the density of wine? does a mosel riesling have higher density than a 16% Barossa Shiraz (so I can drink more of the shiraz it:-))???? Not stated in our wine article :-) I guess 0.9xx? but still a proper metric value would be nice to have. Guessing 13-14cl??? -- Stefan talk 06:07, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
The grape Onaka (grape) (which wasn't even tagged for the project) was nominated for deletion as a "non-notable". The two person consensus of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Onaka (grape) was to merge into List of grape varieties. This is a dangerous precedent and obviously a bad idea. The grape variety list is suppose to be just that-a list and shouldn't included merged content talking about the history and description of the grape. Furthermore, it should be well established that all botanical species are inherently notable. While we may someday, as a project, group together lesser known and used grapes into specific articles like Minor grapes of Southern Italy, etc - I don't think we would ever just leave a grape article as a merged redirect into list of grape varieties. Agne Cheese/ Wine 16:12, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
I have done a GA Reassessment of the Alcohol in the Bible article as part of the GA Sweeps project. My reassessment can be found here. I have found that the article does not meet the current GA Criteria and as such I have placed it on hold for one week pending work. I am notifying all interested projects and editors of this in the hopes that an editor will come forth to work on the article. Should you have questions or concerns please contact me at my talk page. H1nkles ( talk) 20:03, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone know of ant reliable sources for Balloon wine? The two current links are two recipe sites with one clearly being an unreliable, blog type site. Agne Cheese/ Wine 04:20, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Still pondering the right thing to do with Penedès, I went through the other Spanish DOs to see how the corresponding geographical /administrative articles are handled, naming-wise. Apart from Ribera del Duero, all our wine articles leave the main article to the administrative one, wherever these actually exist. Even Priorat (DOQ), arguably way higher in importance to the the English encyclopedia than Priorat, follows this protocol. Penedès is a special case, as technically there's no extant administrative region, so the two are currently (messily) merged as one. I brought this up a while back, still have an alternative version of the merged article lined up, but I'm not at all sure this is the right way to leave things. My instinct is to split off Penedès (DO) per most other regions, but I'm also tempted to keep the wine article as it ever was and split off Penedès (vegueria) instead, per Ribera del Duero (comarca). This vegueria has an interesting history and it's easy to justify an article on it, ahead of its anticipated (but not certain) resurrection as an administrative entity in the coming year or so. I'd much rather have some WineProject backup for the latter option, if that's the way we believe it should be. So what do you think? -- mikaul talk 07:17, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm having a go at a short start on an article on Dönnhoff - any suggestions on the best place to put the article when it has been fleshed out a bit? Most references I've seen list it as "Weingut Hermann Dönnhoff" (or H. in place of Hermann), the official website and label on the wine it is simply "Dönnhoff". I'm tempted to go with "Dönnhoff" as the common name that "the average user of Wikipedia" would "put into the search engine" due to the label . Redirects can be created easily enough for alternatives, but thought I should check opinions here first. Camw ( talk) 05:04, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Greetings, viticulturists. There's an article Caduceus Cellars that discusses both the cellars and the associated vineyards, Merkin Vineyards. A question has arisen as to whether titling by cellar alone is appropriate, and what the naming conventions are in such cases. Can anyone help out? Skomorokh 11:47, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Please see:
-- Stefan talk 03:01, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
See Umberto Cesari for new prodded wine article. Does not look much notable from a few quick searches, but I know to little of italian wine. If anyone think it is notable please help save it. -- Stefan talk 02:06, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Over on this article I'm dealing with IPs from Finland (most likely the same user) completely blanking sections from this article that they don't agree with. On the talk page and their IP talked, I tried to steer them towards important Wikipedia policies like WP:NPOV but they seem determined to white wash the article free of criticisms. More eyes would be appreciated. Agne Cheese/ Wine 18:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
After a recent request, I added WikiProject Wine to the list of projects to compile monthly pageview stats for. The data is the same used by http://stats.grok.se/en/ but the program is different, and includes the aggregate views from all redirects to each page. The stats are at Wikipedia:WikiProject Wine/Popular pages.
The page will be updated monthly with new data. The edits aren't marked as bot edits, so they will show up in watchlists. You can view more results, request a new project be added to the list, or request a configuration change for this project using the toolserver tool. If you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know. Thanks! Mr. Z-man 02:10, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Stumbled across this blog hyping an article on his "Wineepedia" which is the author touts as "the wikipedia for wine except I actually know what I am talking about...". Total burn, huh? :p Anyways I got a chuckle out of that as I perused his articles which would probably be "Start class to C level" under our classification and lacks a bit of encyclopedic tone with more sales brochure flare.(And yes, EXTREMELY POV oriented) However, there is more coverage on certain European wine region then what we have currently. These are gaping holes that needed to be filled eventually and admittedly this display of hubris sparks in me some motivation to work on just that. :) Agne Cheese/ Wine 05:33, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm having a bit of a problem with an editor by the name Setwisohi ( talk · contribs) who is repeatedly removing a reference I've used for the artice Belgian wine calling it commercial linkspam, despite being fully aware that it is the source I actually used, and completely dodges questions about which sources acceptable to him that I should use instead for this subject. (By the way, Belgian wine is not really a subject were English-language sources abound...) He and another editor seems to think that it is preposterous to claim that it is vandalism to remove references, and that the references I use are "bad" and "rubbish". An outside, independent look would be appreciated, otherwise this just risks running into WP:3RR without Wikipedia's coverage becoming any better or better sourced in the process. And of course, it could be me that's completely wrong after all. Tomas e ( talk) 14:31, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
AOC Haspengouw followed in 2000, located in Limburg, close to the border with Netherlands, and home to Belgium's only wine "château" and largest producer.
, leaving the name out of the text and only to figure in the reflist. not a criticismm, but just my 2 cents, Tomas.--
Kudpung (
talk)
10:12, 3 September 2009 (UTC)(Chris)
And you thought it was just Cyprus! ;) This time the Israeli wine is being targeted by those interested in the Golan Heights conflict. Instead of focusing on wine, this editor/IP is interested in taking the article off topic and focusing on political disputes. Extra eyes to keep the article neutral and on topic would be appreciated. Agne Cheese/ Wine 22:05, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Anyone with an opinion on the viability of a pop culture section within Cristal (wine) might want to chip in on a new discussion started on the talk page. For those not familiar with the long-running farce there, the latest version of the section in question, prior to being deleted, can be viewed by following this link [12]. The older version is probably worth pointing out too. -- mikaul talk 09:07, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
I know there is a discussion buried somewhere in the archives but we have another editor wanting to revisit the capitalization of Champagne. See Talk:Champagne_(wine)#Champagne_capitalization. I corrected the mis-capitalization but the editor reverted me, leaving open the invitation to correct the capitalization again provided I provide a "good argument". Well my argument is essentially this-Champagne from the Champagne region is a protected name, essentially a brand name like Pepsi or Budweiser (note the capitalization in those articles). In that context it is a proper noun and should be capitalized. When the term "champagne" is being hijacked by producers like Korbel, it becomes a different thing entirely-more a "style" rather than a distinct wine and then it should be lowercase. The two capitalizations are meant to distinguish between real, authentic (and protected brand name) Champagne and the products of imitators. There is no need to distinguish via capitalization between the wine and the region because people normally use the terms interchangeably anyways (like Bordeaux and Burgundy. When people do need to distinguish between the wine and the region, they normally would add the qualifiers "region" and "wine" anyways. Agne Cheese/ Wine 16:40, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Just noticed that there is a problem with our article on Vouvray as there is a discussion about possible copyright infringement going on at the Copyright problem noticeboard. I see some of our members have edited the article in the past (mostly cleanup but some more substantial changes as well), if anyone has more information they can provide on the issue that would be good.
If it is decided that our article has been copied from the site in question rather than the other way around, we may have to pay some quick attention to building it up again from whatever point it needs to be reverted to as it is a High importance article and does get a fair few views. Camw ( talk) 02:35, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Probably a long term objective but at some point I do think the wine project should consider incorporating audio files into wine articles with pronunciation of certain wine regions/grape varieties, etc. I think it would be more useful than using the IPA alone. Something to think about. Agne Cheese/ Wine 21:24, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
check out the talk page here, folks: Australian Wine zone -- BodegasAmbite ( talk) 08:57, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
An interesting read. When I get a chance, I'll double check the sources on the Limoux wine article though if anyone gets too it before me, feel free to do any tweaking that needs to be done. Agne Cheese/ Wine 18:55, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Folks, today I stumbled across an article called List of vineyards and wineries, the lead of which declares it to be a "...a non-exhaustive list of vineyards and wineries from around the world". It wasn't assesed for this project (now it is), although it has existed since 12 February 2006! I suppose I don't have to point out the futility of trying to draw up such a list. Or perhaps I should, just to show the scale and complexity of the issue. Germany, which only accounts for 1.3% of the world's vineyard surface (102.000 ha out of 7.9 million), still has 2,632 officially defined single vineyard sites (as of 2006), and counted 68,598 registered vineyard owners as of 1999. Since this list has no selection criteria, and I can't imagine any criteria that would give you a manageable list, inclusion seem simply to be based on POV. I would suggest putting it up for deletion as soon as possible. Or perhaps we should simply redirect it to List of wine-producing regions? Tomas e ( talk) 12:43, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
See Chateau Morrisette which is tagged for speedy deletion, please help to save if it is worth saving, a quick google check does not give any indication that it is notable. -- Stefan talk 00:16, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I have to admit that I'm baffled by the utter uselessness of articles like List of wineries in Missouri, List of Oregon wineries and vineyards, List of wineries in Illinois and several other articles in the Category:List-Class Wine articles (Not to mention the infamous List of vineyards and wineries mentioned above). As a project, I think we really need to look at WP:LIST maybe add something to WP:WINEGUIDE to address the issue. Agne Cheese/ Wine 22:36, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
I am a wine aficionado from Australia who is interested on working towards improving the quality of articles pertaining to wineries in Australia. If there are any suggestions on how I can improve existing articles, please do not hesitate to let me know. I also hope to contribute by adding some new articles pertaining to Australian wineries in the near future. Rrwhine ( talk) 03:55, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Thoughts? -- Milowent ( talk) 16:03, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Ahem. We have a proposed guideline in the Wikipedia wine project: Wikipedia:Notability (wine topics). The section on lists isn't comprehensive, but generally the consensus so far in WikiProject Wine has not been in favor of indiscriminate lists of wineries. ~ Amatulić ( talk) 02:49, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
I think Mick is onto something with the use of outlines and emphasizing structure. I know a big sticking point in the AfD discussion is the inclusion of non-notable wineries in the list which clearly steers the article away from being informational/developmental/navigational into a
WP:DIRECTORY. But judging by the behaviors exhibited at
List of wineries in the Barossa Valley, some editors do not wish for the articles to be fixed up by removing the red-links (and don't get me started on the
WP:POV
WP:ADVERT eye sores of "iconic" wines that is still there). My idea would attempt to reach a compromise between the two sides that still maintains the encyclopedic integrity of the mainspace but also can serve the benefit of a development tool for what wineries articles still need to be created.
Anyone can claim that a redlink winery is notable but the proof is in the
WP:RS available to create an article that passes
WP:CORP. I fret that too many people are misguided into thinking that a winery's mere appearance in a wine guide (such as the Halliday guide used in
List of wineries in the Eden Valley) establishes its notability, and therefore want to list every entry. From my perspective, the only fair and unbias route is to list only the wineries whose notability has been established by the creation of an article. Judging from the comments above as well as previous discussions on this page, it seems like this is fairly solid consensus within the Wine Project.
Now as for the development potential for articles on notable wineries that should be created, I suggest doing something similar to what we did with some of the American AVA articles like
Talk:Oakville AVA. We created a redlink list on the talk page and then moved the wineries over as they became notable and had an article that passed
WP:CORP created. Rather than just list them on the talk page, we should make it a sub-page something like
Talk:Outline of notable Australian vineyards/Possibly notable wineries with a note on the talk page (and a hidden note in the mainspace article) explaining that any winery which an editor feels is notable but doesn't yet have an article should be included on this page. This would be a single consolidated area for red links that can serve as a valuable development tool for what winery articles still need to be created and then moved to the outline list. Now, of course, not every winery listed on that sub-page will be notable enough for an article but its inclusion on that sub-page is far less of a
WP:NOTDIRECTORY violation than it would if it was in the mainspace. Thoughts?
Agne
Cheese/
Wine
06:12, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
{{|winerybox|owner = a|name=b|homepage=c}} The x is a winery in the Barossa Valley. The winery is owned by y. Its specialities are z. [1]
- ^ WP:RS
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
A new user has created new articles on Robin Goldstein and Fearless Critic which relate to the guy who pranked Wine Spectator's restaurant awards program. I removed some cruft advert for Fearless Critic as well as material sourced to Goldstein's self published blog from Wine Spectator but it may be worthwhile to take an objective look at all these articles. Both seem to be very borderline on notability. Agne Cheese/ Wine 16:25, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
I forgot to ask before the conversation concluded. What is a good rule of thumb for the number of reviews needed in order to successfully re-approach Captûre Wines' notability? I hope you could add some clarity to this concept. Thanks. RonaldMcWendys ( talk) 17:20, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
(outdent)
I hate to say this, but this latest response gives me the feeling that your conflict of interest has caused you to place more importance on promoting this winery than on building an encyclopedia. Wikipedia isn't a channel for promotions. Wineries (or any companies) must gain visibility without Wikipedia's help. It is likely to take much longer for this winery to achieve sufficient importance for article inclusion, especially in light of the deletion discussions above pertaining to other wineries.
Regarding the sources, one is irrelevant, but the other may be relevant:
I don't know the answers. Any thoughts from the community here? ~ Amatulić ( talk) 17:55, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Trapiche (winery) is an article I have drafted and currently have posted to my user subspace. While building the article and preparing it for moving it into the main space, I have carefully followed WP:NOR, WP:SPAM, WP:NOT as well as WP:COI, because Trapiche is a client of my employer. For that reason, I would like an uninvolved editor to review the article. If it needs work before it can be approved, please let me know. If it meets Wikipedia's standards and can be moved, please move it or let me know if I can.
One more note: I see there is a related discussion involving another winery happening on this page today, though it appears to me the circumstances of each winery is very different. However, please let me know if you have any concerns or questions. Thanks. Nanorlb ( talk) 18:32, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
New article Tre Bicchieri. I confess that I've never heard of this before. Agne Cheese/ Wine 04:35, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Interesting new article Clos (vineyard). At first glance it looks like a wikitionary entry on the dict def of Clos. Then it sort of becomes a "List of Clos vineyards". I don't know if this article has much potential for expansion or if it should be merged into vineyard. Thoughts? Agne Cheese/ Wine 07:39, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Over at Talk:Muscadet, Tomas and I have been working with anon editor for the past few days with a bit of difficulties. The anon is quite passionate about the article but at the root of problem I suspect is just a lack of familiarity about Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. The anon seems quite determined to add their own personal knowledge and opinion to the article while Tomas and I are trying to steer his energy and enthusiasm towards finding reliable sources to cite rather than rely on his/her personal knowledge and OR. We're making some progress and the anon has been improving their use of citing referencing but I suspect he/she would benefit having an uninvolved "mentor". As Tomas and I have been in dialog with them we no longer qualify as "uninvolved". I'm confident that an amicable resolution will eventually be reached but some unbias voices are always helpful. Agne Cheese/ Wine 04:27, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Last week I asked for advice on getting approval for a prospective Trapiche (winery) article. In response to Agne’s advice on how to improve it, I have reviewed WP:WINEGUIDE and made a few changes. As requested, I have incorporated the links to Mendoza wine and Argentine wine into the Trapiche article.
As for the list of Additional brands, I believe its inclusion is merited, as it describes the range of products under the Trapiche label (and it is not a list of "best" Vintages, as discouraged in WP:WINEGUIDE). I also added an explanatory sentence with a citation to underline this fact. I welcome any further advice on this point.
But, if this is ready to move into the mainspace, I'm happy to do that or let someone else do it. -- Nanorlb ( talk) 20:15, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
I did a quick cleanup on this article ( Albana_(grape), but I think there's something not right about the image. Should it not be in the Commons, and have a proper link? I'm afraid I don't know how to fix it. -- BodegasAmbite ( talk) 13:59, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I've no idea! It was user Lavamar (talk contribs) wot dunnit! He or she inserted the photo shortly after I did the cleanup.-- BodegasAmbite ( talk) 15:23, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
The anon IP 71.139.4.218 has been adding Category:Cuisine of the Western United States to a number of articles, including California wine, Category:California wine , and Wine Country (California). I don't think the categorization is appropriate for the latter two, and I don't know about the first (is there a precedent here)? What do y'all think? Dori ❦ ( Talk ❖ Contribs ❖ Review) ❦ 23:56, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I would say that wine is related (very closely) to cuisine, but not an actual part of it. I understand the core meaning of 'cuisine' to basically be the preparation of food. There's also the 'practical' aspect to this question, ie tagging several thousand wine articles would be time-consuming (or would a bot do that?) and, more importantly, it wouldn't serve any purpose. I think all humans (even the millions that don't drink wine) are already aware that wine is closely related to cuisine. I vote for no tagging! -- BodegasAmbite ( talk) 10:32, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello oeno-folks, I wonder if I fell asleep over a unusually long time some months ago (early February 2009, to be more precise) and stopped keeping watch over certain grape articles. The reason why I ask is called
Template:Infobox wine grape variety, which was created on February 2, 2009 by
TimR (
talk ·
contribs). Now, several of you are going to say "No, that's not true, we've had that infobox a lot longer". But what you're thinking about is
Template:Infobox grape variety (notice the lack of the word "wine"), which goes back to just shortly after grapes were first trodden by man to make wine, or more precisely, March 20, 2007. I discovered this because I just added an infobox for
Sacy (grape), which I simply took and modified from
Chardonnay, and I didn't get it to display the parameter for the grape's origin that I added. The reason turned out to be that this new template has no parameter for origin, or for species, for that part. Looking at which varieties that use the new template
[5] (they are few but include some very well known ones), I just can't believe that I missed that the existing infobox was replaced in e.g.
Syrah with one that omits these central parameters.
So I must ask if I missed a project discussion in early Febrary that reached consensus that 1) ampelographic information like species, pedigree and origin is not interesting to display in infoboxes on grapes, and 2) the project should have duplicate infoboxes for the same things?
If not, I suggest that the seven varieties now using this template be relieved from it as soon as possible, and the template is put up for deletion. Thoughts?
Tomas e (
talk)
17:27, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Has anyone been following the deletion discussion here: [ [6]] The consensus is going towards Keep, because recently an author slapped 12 references onto the articles it it now looks weel referenced. I've actually checked them all out: half are not available for viewing (you have to pay or subscribe) and the other half are passing mentions in related fields (tourism, cuisine, etc) Not a single source has any actual content, let alone notable content.-- BodegasAmbite ( talk) 14:13, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello, I just had a look at another infobox, Template:Infobox Australian winery. While there's nothing wrong to its existence as such, I noticed the last three of its parameters:
This sort of seems a bit too much of a WP:WINEGUIDE or even a tourist guide to me. Should we really have infoboxes with these parameters? Tomas e ( talk) 13:48, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
While we are at it, you better look here also, [7] I say keep but as always, I can be convinced I'm wrong :-) -- Stefan talk 01:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Sheesh, another winery article. Another issue. :/ User:Kvice has been adding massive amount of unsourced info that was apparently approved and " provided by the winery itself" according to the edit summary and confession on my talk page. I've tried to point the user to the relevant policies, including WP:COI policy but this is something to keep an eye on. Agne Cheese/ Wine 16:45, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
check this one out please: Palotai Vineyard and Winery. Reads like a blatant advert, but I haven't proposed it for deletion (yet). Maybe the author (with possible COI) can dredge up some notability! -- BodegasAmbite ( talk) 10:38, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
I placed the prod on that article. I still believe that the WP:CORP concerns have not been addressed, but I'll wait a week or so before going to a formal deletion proposal.
The topic of winery notability has received a lot of attention in this Wikipedia Wine project lately. I would like to see Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a wine guide upgraded from essay to guideline status, because it is a guideline document that makes a lot of sense. It already contains a detailed section on winery notability, which serves as an excellent extension to WP:CORP.
I have created the shortcuts WP:WINERY and WP:WINERIES to point to that section, for future reference. ~ Amatulić ( talk) 21:18, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I created a new article for Croatian wine and would appreciate a review by the more experienced Wiki authors amongst us. One issue is that I don't seem to be able to get Croatia listed in the "wine by country" category box - obviously I'd like to. Thanks! Farscot ( talk) 16:11, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
While doing some housekeeping I came across Connecticut Wine Trail. Looking at some of the WP:NOTABILITY guidelines, I really couldn't find anything for "tourist trails" or the like. Searching online provides scant referencing outside of very trivial mentions in local newspapers. Considering that nearly every US AVA or wine area has a "wine trail" of sorts, perhaps we should discuss what makes wine routes like the German Wine Route notable verses these smaller AVAs, etc. Agne Cheese/ Wine 06:18, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello all! I subscribed this project up for the article alerts bot which will search all namespaces with the {{ wine}} template and make a daily record of changes including Prod, AfD, GAN, FAN etc... Once it gets going in a day or so I will update the main page so it displays the changes automatically. Furthermore you will be able to monitor changes by watching the Wikipedia:WikiProject Wine/Article alerts page.
Hopefully this can help us all keep up on the many changes that are occuring each day in the wine field here on WP.
-- Jeremy ( blah blah) 07:47, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I will reset the page so it is prominent under the article information section of the page. -- Jeremy ( blah blah) 01:09, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Per the instructions on WP:GUIDE, I propose that the essay Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a wine guide be promoted from essay to guideline, with WP:CORP as its parent.
Please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia is not a wine guide#Proposal to promote from essay to guideline. Thanks. ~ Amatulić ( talk) 21:49, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
As I noted on the talk page, I do think WP:WINEGUIDE needs to be rewritten and brought up to date. Especially over the last year its usage and focus has shifted along with consensus opinion regarding WP:CORP, winery articles and notability in general. As a project, we've had a lot of discussions on this page and at various AfDs. with some clear consensus views forming that should be solidified in WP:WINEGUIDE. How about we create Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a wine guide/Draft revision and focus in on some key details like....
Of course there are somethings we want to carry over from the current version of WP:WINEGUIDE like the restaurant test but maybe we should move some of the "style" issues regarding wine lists and vintages, etc to a separate article? Agne Cheese/ Wine 04:06, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
I have split out and expanded the notability portion into a new article Wikipedia:Notability (wine topics). There are sections to be expanded on wine, winemakers, wineries, regions, and competitions. There should probably be a section on tourism attractions too. Please expand. ~ Amatulić ( talk) 21:58, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Coming across Concha y Toro reminded me of a comment that Tomas made a couple weeks ago in the section above Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Wine#Criteria_for_notability_of_a_winery about "I'm more worried about winery articles written like advertisements than those that are borderline cases when it comes to notability". The Concha y Toro article is a great example here. It is clearly a notable winery but it has a lot of "sneaky POV". It is not screaming out as a sales brochure but the descriptions of the individual wines and vineyards are very clearly written like something you expect to see in a wineguide or in a distributor's sales write up sheet. The "referenced" material (courtesy of the winery's own website) on the Casillero del Diablo wine tells you that it "is medium bodied with smooth and friendly tannins and lingering finish. It has hints of plums and cherries and a generous touch of toasted American oak" and so on. Now with all our time being very limited and precious, Tomas' words above have me thinking. As Wikipedia grows it seems like wineries are becoming more and more of a headache and the source of our biggest problems-be it notability, POV or COI. Going forward this project does need a game plan on how to handle all these issues. Agne Cheese/ Wine 06:35, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I have also subscribed the group to WolterBot. WolterBot goes through WP:Wine articles tallying all articles that have a clean up tag of one type or another ({{ wikify}}, {{ citations}} etc...) and cataloging them. This should help with the Improvement drive as we can now get a handle on those articles in most need of help. This list is updated roughly bi-monthly.
-- Jeremy ( blah blah) 01:23, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I have rearranged Agne's essay WP:WINEGUIDE so that the style stuff and notability stuff are cleanly separable, then I moved the notability part to a new article:
I have included several additional sections beyond just wineries that may have notability concerns. A couple are still blank, and others can use further expansion.
Please participate, get involved, make edits, and discuss on Wikipedia talk:Notability (wine topics), especially if you disagree with anything. Overall, though, I think it's off to a good start. ~ Amatulić ( talk) 00:54, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone think we have a strong case to get Muscat (grape and wine) moved to Muscat as the Primary Topic? The closest contender is the city in Oman but in the English language it seems that the most common usage of the term is in relation to the grapes and wine. Agne Cheese/ Wine 06:21, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
See Tempra Tantrum and Osborne Group. -- Stefan talk 02:56, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
While this project's articles have had their fair share of linkspam and "commercial POV", I haven't seen that much political/ethnical POV-pushing, which is good. However, we now have a case of an editor called Mttll ( talk · contribs) who has tried to move Turkey from (Minor) Asia to Europe in the List of wine-producing regions, citing Cyprus as his tit-for-tat argument. (Sigh.) It's a user who has already been blocked, and who seem to be a POV-pusher in general rather than someone interested in wine, and doesn't seem to be interested in taking advice or writing NPOV. I think he'll try again, so I wouldn't mind if a couple of more editors keeps an eye on this list. Tomas e ( talk) 16:17, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
See Randy_Caparoso, seams to be resonably well written, with claims of possible notability, but possible WP:COI and notability issues. Comments? -- Stefan talk 09:03, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Its nomination at Did you know is being held up for copy-editing concerns. As this is certainly not my forte, any help from more grammatically inclined editors would be appreciated :p Agne Cheese/ Wine 07:39, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Now User:AlexNewArtBot is running for wine pages, see User:AlexNewArtBot/WineSearchResult for a filtered list (watchlist this) and User:AlexNewArtBot/WineLog for all logs. If you want to help tweak the search terms, please help at User:AlexNewArtBot/Wine, it is still a work in progress, but think it starts to be useful, but expect lots of false hits. This is a good way to find new COI and low notability articles. -- Stefan talk 03:32, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Someone is pretty hardcore about getting Pollak Vineyards some free WP:ADVERT on Wikipedia. First User:Mollygibbs tried several times to add the redlink to the Monticello AVA, when that was deleted. She then create a quick copy vio article so that the link would turn blue. That article won't be around long and looking online, I'm not sure if a referenced, pov article can be written. Agne Cheese/ Wine 02:42, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
The Penedès article has run aground somewhat during the last six months, largely I think due to the confusion surrounding the wine region as a linked-but-separate entity with the administrative area. I've been involved off & on with the
vegueria article in which the highly confusing political situation there, following the 2006 declaration of the reintroduction of the vegueria system of government, has led to speculation that the Penedès may one again become a unified province.
Here's the thing: technically, there's no such place as Penedès just yet, making it hard to justify a separate article. A lot of its geographical and historical detail is intertwined with the wine region geography and history and I'm very tempted to properly combine the two facets of Penedès in the one article, at least until such time as the vegueria actually comes into existence again, at which point it can probably be split off if necessary.
I've re-jigged the article to see if this works and posted it as a sub-page to my user page
here. I think it does work – just – but it's an unusual one as wine articles go. I'd appreciate your comments before I replace the existing page with this draft. --
mikaul
talk
12:57, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I noticed these varietals don't have articles. ChildofMidnight ( talk) 19:06, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
If I were going to write up an article on John Williams the winemaker, what would the expected article title be? John Williams (wine), John Williams (winemaker), or something else? Thanks. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 18:27, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Hey guys, there is a new "Google for wine" search engine out Able Grape that looks to be a pretty nifty tool for finding some reliable sources to use in wine articles. While not every link that shows up would qualify as an RS, it sure is better than just searching Google. I recommend wine project members bookmarking the link. Agne Cheese/ Wine 22:47, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Once again a litany of editors have added their personal favorite grape or wine region to the template diminishing, in my view, its usefulness. Templates are not meant to catalog every possible article that can be included in a category but rather the major articles that contain links to these other articles. My thoughts are that the template is getting too big and including too many grapes and regions that should be just represented with links to List of grape varieties and List of wine-producing regions. Other thoughts? Agne Cheese/ Wine 03:18, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Discussion about capitalization and including mention of other products using the term "Grand cru". All opinions and viewpoints welcomed. Agne Cheese/ Wine 06:34, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
User:Dcousino, apparently connected with the winery Cousino Macul, is pretty gosh darn determined to put a photo of his wine in the Chilean wine article. Now if this photo was an improvement over the existing photo (such as including an actual glass of wine or grapes with the bottle), then I might be incline to overlook the clear WP:COI because it would improve the article. But replacing one bottle pic with another for the sole benefit of promoting your company is clearly crossing the line. Agne Cheese/ Wine 01:14, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
User:Robert Parker aperantly joint our project...-- Symposiarch ( talk) 13:57, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
This is the proposed naming convention on cuisines that has been percolating for some time, I would like to request all members to please take a look and comment on its talk page. This is a very important rule set that needs to be decided upon, if you wish to establish or please comment under the appropriate section. -- Jeremy ( blah blah • I did it!) 07:28, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
An article on the Burgundy winery
Bonneau du Martray was recently added by one of our project members,
Camw (
talk ·
contribs). It's a good and properly referenced article, and this project would have much less "winery headache" if all winery articles were written like it. Nevertheless, it included a final section which consisted of
Clive Coates general opinions about two of their wines (though not vintage-specific) and
Hugh Johnson's star rating (four) for the winery, all referenced. I felt that this section went against
WP:WINEGUIDE and therefore removed it. Camw disagreed and pointed out that the quotes are not vintage specific reviews per the section in WP:WINEGUIDE, but comments from independent notable authors on the estate itself and its standing, that contribute to assertation of notability. Also, reviews from critics are included in articles in articles covering many other subjects, and WP:WINEGUIDE mentions parallels to restaurants.
Since Camw rightly pointed out that WP:WINEGUIDE is an opinion, I would like to see if we can reach some sort of project consensus on the issue of reporting this kind of winery and wine ratings in articles, as this could be valuable and possibly be included in
Wikipedia:Notability (wine topics).
My opinion on this matter goes like this:
Other thoughts? And, by the way, I'm sure that there is material that should be removed from various existing winery articles if you were to agree with me. Tomas e ( talk) 11:25, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
The problem with referencing wine critics is that there are literally dozens of wine critics of equal stature, esteem and notability and many times these critics disagree which brings us conflicts of WP:UNDUE and WP:POV criticism. This is a far different circumstance than in the restaurant world where Michelin is pretty much unparalleled. (Though in all honesty, I personally think Michelin's use is overdone in restaurant articles anyways) I agree with Tomas' point that views of critics is content that you normally don't see in encyclopedias (like the Oxford Companion) - which really goes to the heart of what WP:Wikipedia is not a wineguide is all about. As a project we have to make a decision about how we are going to present wine related content. Are we an encyclopedia or a wineguide? As an encyclopedist, my view is that we should focus on the facts (i.e. more or less objective statements) and leave the color commentary to other websites. Agne Cheese/ Wine 14:31, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Hey guys, I just finished an article on Wine and health which I submitted for WP:DYK consideration. I tried really hard to keep it as NPOV and balanced as I could showing both the positive and negative attributes associated with wine consumption and health. Considering the drama that the French Paradox and Resveratrol articles have seen over the years, I suspect there maybe some issues once this article hits the front page-especially for those who take a hardline view against alcohol in general. I figure the more neutral and factual we can keep this article, the better. Any additional eyes and tweaking would be greatly appreciated. Agne Cheese/ Wine 08:17, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
POV is ok by me, but I'm sure other will have issues. A non POV issue, beeing used to metric units I have no idea what soever how many cl a 5 ounce glass is, and since ounce is a mass unit and cl is volume it gets even more complicated (why would you measure wine in weight???), what is the density of wine? does a mosel riesling have higher density than a 16% Barossa Shiraz (so I can drink more of the shiraz it:-))???? Not stated in our wine article :-) I guess 0.9xx? but still a proper metric value would be nice to have. Guessing 13-14cl??? -- Stefan talk 06:07, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
The grape Onaka (grape) (which wasn't even tagged for the project) was nominated for deletion as a "non-notable". The two person consensus of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Onaka (grape) was to merge into List of grape varieties. This is a dangerous precedent and obviously a bad idea. The grape variety list is suppose to be just that-a list and shouldn't included merged content talking about the history and description of the grape. Furthermore, it should be well established that all botanical species are inherently notable. While we may someday, as a project, group together lesser known and used grapes into specific articles like Minor grapes of Southern Italy, etc - I don't think we would ever just leave a grape article as a merged redirect into list of grape varieties. Agne Cheese/ Wine 16:12, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
I have done a GA Reassessment of the Alcohol in the Bible article as part of the GA Sweeps project. My reassessment can be found here. I have found that the article does not meet the current GA Criteria and as such I have placed it on hold for one week pending work. I am notifying all interested projects and editors of this in the hopes that an editor will come forth to work on the article. Should you have questions or concerns please contact me at my talk page. H1nkles ( talk) 20:03, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone know of ant reliable sources for Balloon wine? The two current links are two recipe sites with one clearly being an unreliable, blog type site. Agne Cheese/ Wine 04:20, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Still pondering the right thing to do with Penedès, I went through the other Spanish DOs to see how the corresponding geographical /administrative articles are handled, naming-wise. Apart from Ribera del Duero, all our wine articles leave the main article to the administrative one, wherever these actually exist. Even Priorat (DOQ), arguably way higher in importance to the the English encyclopedia than Priorat, follows this protocol. Penedès is a special case, as technically there's no extant administrative region, so the two are currently (messily) merged as one. I brought this up a while back, still have an alternative version of the merged article lined up, but I'm not at all sure this is the right way to leave things. My instinct is to split off Penedès (DO) per most other regions, but I'm also tempted to keep the wine article as it ever was and split off Penedès (vegueria) instead, per Ribera del Duero (comarca). This vegueria has an interesting history and it's easy to justify an article on it, ahead of its anticipated (but not certain) resurrection as an administrative entity in the coming year or so. I'd much rather have some WineProject backup for the latter option, if that's the way we believe it should be. So what do you think? -- mikaul talk 07:17, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm having a go at a short start on an article on Dönnhoff - any suggestions on the best place to put the article when it has been fleshed out a bit? Most references I've seen list it as "Weingut Hermann Dönnhoff" (or H. in place of Hermann), the official website and label on the wine it is simply "Dönnhoff". I'm tempted to go with "Dönnhoff" as the common name that "the average user of Wikipedia" would "put into the search engine" due to the label . Redirects can be created easily enough for alternatives, but thought I should check opinions here first. Camw ( talk) 05:04, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Greetings, viticulturists. There's an article Caduceus Cellars that discusses both the cellars and the associated vineyards, Merkin Vineyards. A question has arisen as to whether titling by cellar alone is appropriate, and what the naming conventions are in such cases. Can anyone help out? Skomorokh 11:47, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Please see:
-- Stefan talk 03:01, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
See Umberto Cesari for new prodded wine article. Does not look much notable from a few quick searches, but I know to little of italian wine. If anyone think it is notable please help save it. -- Stefan talk 02:06, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Over on this article I'm dealing with IPs from Finland (most likely the same user) completely blanking sections from this article that they don't agree with. On the talk page and their IP talked, I tried to steer them towards important Wikipedia policies like WP:NPOV but they seem determined to white wash the article free of criticisms. More eyes would be appreciated. Agne Cheese/ Wine 18:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
After a recent request, I added WikiProject Wine to the list of projects to compile monthly pageview stats for. The data is the same used by http://stats.grok.se/en/ but the program is different, and includes the aggregate views from all redirects to each page. The stats are at Wikipedia:WikiProject Wine/Popular pages.
The page will be updated monthly with new data. The edits aren't marked as bot edits, so they will show up in watchlists. You can view more results, request a new project be added to the list, or request a configuration change for this project using the toolserver tool. If you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know. Thanks! Mr. Z-man 02:10, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Stumbled across this blog hyping an article on his "Wineepedia" which is the author touts as "the wikipedia for wine except I actually know what I am talking about...". Total burn, huh? :p Anyways I got a chuckle out of that as I perused his articles which would probably be "Start class to C level" under our classification and lacks a bit of encyclopedic tone with more sales brochure flare.(And yes, EXTREMELY POV oriented) However, there is more coverage on certain European wine region then what we have currently. These are gaping holes that needed to be filled eventually and admittedly this display of hubris sparks in me some motivation to work on just that. :) Agne Cheese/ Wine 05:33, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm having a bit of a problem with an editor by the name Setwisohi ( talk · contribs) who is repeatedly removing a reference I've used for the artice Belgian wine calling it commercial linkspam, despite being fully aware that it is the source I actually used, and completely dodges questions about which sources acceptable to him that I should use instead for this subject. (By the way, Belgian wine is not really a subject were English-language sources abound...) He and another editor seems to think that it is preposterous to claim that it is vandalism to remove references, and that the references I use are "bad" and "rubbish". An outside, independent look would be appreciated, otherwise this just risks running into WP:3RR without Wikipedia's coverage becoming any better or better sourced in the process. And of course, it could be me that's completely wrong after all. Tomas e ( talk) 14:31, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
AOC Haspengouw followed in 2000, located in Limburg, close to the border with Netherlands, and home to Belgium's only wine "château" and largest producer.
, leaving the name out of the text and only to figure in the reflist. not a criticismm, but just my 2 cents, Tomas.--
Kudpung (
talk)
10:12, 3 September 2009 (UTC)(Chris)
And you thought it was just Cyprus! ;) This time the Israeli wine is being targeted by those interested in the Golan Heights conflict. Instead of focusing on wine, this editor/IP is interested in taking the article off topic and focusing on political disputes. Extra eyes to keep the article neutral and on topic would be appreciated. Agne Cheese/ Wine 22:05, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Anyone with an opinion on the viability of a pop culture section within Cristal (wine) might want to chip in on a new discussion started on the talk page. For those not familiar with the long-running farce there, the latest version of the section in question, prior to being deleted, can be viewed by following this link [12]. The older version is probably worth pointing out too. -- mikaul talk 09:07, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
I know there is a discussion buried somewhere in the archives but we have another editor wanting to revisit the capitalization of Champagne. See Talk:Champagne_(wine)#Champagne_capitalization. I corrected the mis-capitalization but the editor reverted me, leaving open the invitation to correct the capitalization again provided I provide a "good argument". Well my argument is essentially this-Champagne from the Champagne region is a protected name, essentially a brand name like Pepsi or Budweiser (note the capitalization in those articles). In that context it is a proper noun and should be capitalized. When the term "champagne" is being hijacked by producers like Korbel, it becomes a different thing entirely-more a "style" rather than a distinct wine and then it should be lowercase. The two capitalizations are meant to distinguish between real, authentic (and protected brand name) Champagne and the products of imitators. There is no need to distinguish via capitalization between the wine and the region because people normally use the terms interchangeably anyways (like Bordeaux and Burgundy. When people do need to distinguish between the wine and the region, they normally would add the qualifiers "region" and "wine" anyways. Agne Cheese/ Wine 16:40, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Just noticed that there is a problem with our article on Vouvray as there is a discussion about possible copyright infringement going on at the Copyright problem noticeboard. I see some of our members have edited the article in the past (mostly cleanup but some more substantial changes as well), if anyone has more information they can provide on the issue that would be good.
If it is decided that our article has been copied from the site in question rather than the other way around, we may have to pay some quick attention to building it up again from whatever point it needs to be reverted to as it is a High importance article and does get a fair few views. Camw ( talk) 02:35, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Probably a long term objective but at some point I do think the wine project should consider incorporating audio files into wine articles with pronunciation of certain wine regions/grape varieties, etc. I think it would be more useful than using the IPA alone. Something to think about. Agne Cheese/ Wine 21:24, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
check out the talk page here, folks: Australian Wine zone -- BodegasAmbite ( talk) 08:57, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
An interesting read. When I get a chance, I'll double check the sources on the Limoux wine article though if anyone gets too it before me, feel free to do any tweaking that needs to be done. Agne Cheese/ Wine 18:55, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Folks, today I stumbled across an article called List of vineyards and wineries, the lead of which declares it to be a "...a non-exhaustive list of vineyards and wineries from around the world". It wasn't assesed for this project (now it is), although it has existed since 12 February 2006! I suppose I don't have to point out the futility of trying to draw up such a list. Or perhaps I should, just to show the scale and complexity of the issue. Germany, which only accounts for 1.3% of the world's vineyard surface (102.000 ha out of 7.9 million), still has 2,632 officially defined single vineyard sites (as of 2006), and counted 68,598 registered vineyard owners as of 1999. Since this list has no selection criteria, and I can't imagine any criteria that would give you a manageable list, inclusion seem simply to be based on POV. I would suggest putting it up for deletion as soon as possible. Or perhaps we should simply redirect it to List of wine-producing regions? Tomas e ( talk) 12:43, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
See Chateau Morrisette which is tagged for speedy deletion, please help to save if it is worth saving, a quick google check does not give any indication that it is notable. -- Stefan talk 00:16, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I have to admit that I'm baffled by the utter uselessness of articles like List of wineries in Missouri, List of Oregon wineries and vineyards, List of wineries in Illinois and several other articles in the Category:List-Class Wine articles (Not to mention the infamous List of vineyards and wineries mentioned above). As a project, I think we really need to look at WP:LIST maybe add something to WP:WINEGUIDE to address the issue. Agne Cheese/ Wine 22:36, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
I am a wine aficionado from Australia who is interested on working towards improving the quality of articles pertaining to wineries in Australia. If there are any suggestions on how I can improve existing articles, please do not hesitate to let me know. I also hope to contribute by adding some new articles pertaining to Australian wineries in the near future. Rrwhine ( talk) 03:55, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Thoughts? -- Milowent ( talk) 16:03, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Ahem. We have a proposed guideline in the Wikipedia wine project: Wikipedia:Notability (wine topics). The section on lists isn't comprehensive, but generally the consensus so far in WikiProject Wine has not been in favor of indiscriminate lists of wineries. ~ Amatulić ( talk) 02:49, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
I think Mick is onto something with the use of outlines and emphasizing structure. I know a big sticking point in the AfD discussion is the inclusion of non-notable wineries in the list which clearly steers the article away from being informational/developmental/navigational into a
WP:DIRECTORY. But judging by the behaviors exhibited at
List of wineries in the Barossa Valley, some editors do not wish for the articles to be fixed up by removing the red-links (and don't get me started on the
WP:POV
WP:ADVERT eye sores of "iconic" wines that is still there). My idea would attempt to reach a compromise between the two sides that still maintains the encyclopedic integrity of the mainspace but also can serve the benefit of a development tool for what wineries articles still need to be created.
Anyone can claim that a redlink winery is notable but the proof is in the
WP:RS available to create an article that passes
WP:CORP. I fret that too many people are misguided into thinking that a winery's mere appearance in a wine guide (such as the Halliday guide used in
List of wineries in the Eden Valley) establishes its notability, and therefore want to list every entry. From my perspective, the only fair and unbias route is to list only the wineries whose notability has been established by the creation of an article. Judging from the comments above as well as previous discussions on this page, it seems like this is fairly solid consensus within the Wine Project.
Now as for the development potential for articles on notable wineries that should be created, I suggest doing something similar to what we did with some of the American AVA articles like
Talk:Oakville AVA. We created a redlink list on the talk page and then moved the wineries over as they became notable and had an article that passed
WP:CORP created. Rather than just list them on the talk page, we should make it a sub-page something like
Talk:Outline of notable Australian vineyards/Possibly notable wineries with a note on the talk page (and a hidden note in the mainspace article) explaining that any winery which an editor feels is notable but doesn't yet have an article should be included on this page. This would be a single consolidated area for red links that can serve as a valuable development tool for what winery articles still need to be created and then moved to the outline list. Now, of course, not every winery listed on that sub-page will be notable enough for an article but its inclusion on that sub-page is far less of a
WP:NOTDIRECTORY violation than it would if it was in the mainspace. Thoughts?
Agne
Cheese/
Wine
06:12, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
{{|winerybox|owner = a|name=b|homepage=c}} The x is a winery in the Barossa Valley. The winery is owned by y. Its specialities are z. [1]
- ^ WP:RS