This page contains archive discussion about the wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals for 2005
I would like to participate in this work. I am a chemistry professor working in the US. My area of speciality is in organic chemistry, though I also use a lot of inorganics, particularly lanthanides, in my research. I recently began making contributions to Wikipedia, for example cerium(III) chloride.
I would suggest that we look at developing a standard format for pages on chemical compounds (the chemical elements already look very nice!). This may need some variation- for example something common like methanol has data such as triple point, whereas something more complex like morphine will not. In addition, I would suggest that we have one format for inorganic compounds and another for organics.
I would also suggest that we tighten up on naming. I have noticed that for inorganics some metal compounds are named like copper(II) chloride (this follows the IUPAC and ACS rules), while others are named like copper (II) chloride (with a space after the metal- this is not an official naming convention as far as I know). I think we should standardise all names to the IUPAC/ACS system, which is what I understand Wikipedia is aiming to do.
I want to get the discussion started and get people's thoughts on what should be done. Also, could someone tell me how I can sign up as a participant- as a newbie, am I eligible to do this? I refrained from editing the page to do this, because of the warning at the top of the page!
Thanks, Martin A. Walker Walkerma
I tend to enjoy working on articles about rather obscure things, and a lot of chemical compounds fall into this category. However, for many of these compounds, I don't have access to a lot of information. I would be willing to contribute a bit here and a bit there, adding the information I have available, but I won't necessarily be able to provide full coverage on a lot of these compounds.
I added an infobox for acenaphthylene, but it's mostly question marks at this point. Are there any comments or suggestions before I do this kind of thing for more compounds? — Bkell 06:37, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Hi, here are some requests for your project (i'm not a chemist, or would offer to contribute)
Duk 19:14, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the input- we must address this when we choose a template. There are already a couple of pages on naming. The inorganic naming still needs some work, though there is one page that is a good start- see Systematic name. There is an excellent page for organic compounds naming at IUPAC nomenclature which is a fabulous resource for those learning organic chemistry- even "mere mortals". What seems to be really lacking is good linking to these pages- so we need to ensure that any templates we use include links on this. After only two months on Wikipedia, I've seen this problem already, see Talk:Silver(I) fluoride.
As for polymers, that is another whole field, one which I know very little about- I only know the common acronyms. Since polymers are commercially VERY important, we need to have something on this. We do have Category:Organic polymers, and a few acronyms show up there and on List of compounds (look under the "P"s particularly). I may start something off on acronyms, but it'll be pretty basic! Walkerma 22:29, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There seems to be total confusion out there on how to name inorganic compounds! To help resolve this I went rummaging in my basement and dug out the relevant journal (JACS, 82, 5525 (1960)), the most relevant pages are now scanned in at http://www2.potsdam.edu/walkerma/inorg_naming.pdf This is the original set of rules, I am ordering a book on the latest revisions, but my understanding is that these rules are by-and-large still current. When there are variable or non-obvious oxidation states, the basics are:
I will try to work on correcting material on naming already on Wikipedia, since this will become a primary reference for us.
I would like to propose that one of our first tasks should be to get all existing compounds pages to conform to the above rules. Any comments? Walkerma 22:45, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I think alphabetical listings are not always the best way to classify chemical compounds. For example, what if you want to find out all of the compounds of aluminium that have pages? Or if you want to know what pages there are for organics containing four carbons, or of formula C4H10O? To begin addressing this I have begun writing a page Inorganic compounds by element which deals with the first problem. I thought long and hard, and researched some chem catalogues to try and pick out what I believe to be a pretty complete list of IMPORTANT compounds of those elements. I have tabulated them and used formulae, in order to keep it extremely concise. In my opinion, one problem with List of compounds is that it is full of obscure compounds that no one is ever going to write a page on. Another problem with list of compounds is that it only has one compound per line, so you have to scroll down a lot to find things.
Another nice thing about Inorganic compounds by element is that we can give a direct link from (for example) the aluminium page to Inorganic_compounds_by_element#Aluminium, this would be very useful.
I think we should also have an organics page listed by chemical formula (Hill formula order- C, then H, then others alphabetically) which would address the organics queries mentioned. Comments, anyone? Walkerma 19:38, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
These lists are coming along nicely and should be pretty much ready soon. My view is that
Please comment or add your suggestions. Walkerma 07:56, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps we should indicated per section what the specific requirement for the articles are, e.g., which infobox to use, and which things are minimal (references?). And are the infoboxes final enough to be ready for real use? I have a question open there about linking back to the chem infobox wikipage. Wim van Dorst 20:52, 2005 Apr 13 (UTC).
This article REALLY bothers me on so many levels. Not only should it be named "Dimethyl sulfone", but most of the info in it is quackery. I would like to edit this article, adding more chemistry information. However, I feel I may be entering a battlezone. Can you give me advice as to how I (or we) should proceed? ~K 03:45, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I started an article called
Phosphorus chlorides. Phosphorus trichloride, phosphorus pentachloride, and diphosphorus tetrachloride are 3 chlorides mentioned in there. I inserted references to these in
Chloride,
Hydrogen chloride, and in
Acyl chlorides in a new preparation section. Also the
Benzoyl chloride stub mentions PCl5. The article has been expanded slightly and molecular images were added. Since then
User:Walkerma has written articles on
Phosphorus trichloride and
Phosphorus trifluoride, in addition to the previous article on
Phosphorus tribromide. It is not clear what will be done about the other phosphorus chlorides.
H Padleckas 16:20, 18 Apr - 2 May 2005 (UTC)
I noticed this amino acid article listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion: 3,4-Methano-1,2,3,4-tetrahydroisoquinoline-3-carboxylic acid. If you know anything about it (or are willing to learn ;-), please cast your vote. Wipe 12:24, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
For future reference, the complete discussion can be found here: Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/3,4-Methano-1,2,3,4-tetrahydroisoquinoline-3-carboxylic acid. Wipe 15:16, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Please see
Talk:Cyanuric acid and see if you know the answer to the question posed there?
H Padleckas
06:43, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
For those who don't watch Wikipedia:Chemical_infobox, we are working on a major revision of the standard template for the properties table. Please take a look at the draft version of the new table and leave comments here. The earlier discussion mainly occurs here. Walkerma 03:54, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
The development of the new chembox is in its final stadium. Please be informed that full discussion is going on at the above links, and the forthcoming version (draft till tomorrow) is visible there too. Everybody is strongly invited to contribute now. Wim van Dorst 12:56, 2005 May 16 (UTC).
The new version of the full chembox has now been posted. Walkerma 18:05, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Here's something to consider: the normal naming convention for article titles is that the title should be the most commonly used name for the article's topic, with the correct name, if different, being mentioned as soon as possible in the article. We need to work out how we reconcile this with moving towards IUPAC names as standard within articles. -- The Anome 08:36, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)
The other (more serious) issue is to define what is common. There are huge differences between different parts of the world (I am a Brit living in the US so I see this a lot!): For example poly(ethene) (IUPAC?? I'm not a polymer chemist!) is known in the US as polyethylene, but in the UK it is always called by the ICI tradename (they invented it), polythene. The other aspect is between disciplines: For example an inorganic chemist will tend to use the "correct" name for SmI2, samarium(II) iodide, but since this reagent has become popular with organic chemists, you will often see organic papers where it is referred to by a pseudo-organic name, samarium diiodide. That's just within chemistry! When you consider usage of chemicals in other diverse fields such as geology, physics, biology, etc., there are names used that I (as a chemist) had never heard of (such as Blue_stone for copper(II) sulfate).
Fortunately the redirect command can deal with the worst effects of this problem- I don't really care if I find methylene chloride listed as dichloromethane, as long as there is a redirect to help me find the page. Walkerma 17:34, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The following "WikiProject Science" page/link: Wikipedia:WikiProject Science#IUPAC Standard says on this matter:
Just information for your consideration. H Padleckas 11:00, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
We also have Wikipedia:Naming conventions (chemistry) to compare this with! As if that wasn't enough IUPAC allows various options- thus acetone could be called acetone, propanone, propan-2-one or 2-propanone, and all of these are IUPAC (as far as I know, please correct me!). I think we need to find the common sense middle ground, and certainly consider common usage, but we should strongly favour the IUPAC name if it is used. I recently did a request move after some unknown user decided to cut&paste the acetone page over to propanone, and acetone became a redirect until I had it reset (see Talk:Acetone). I turned sulfuric(VI) acid into a redirect, yet I also moved ferric chloride to iron(III) chloride. I recently wrote a new page called vanadium(V) oxide, yet "next door" to that we have another page called titanium dioxide. If we write a style guide, we will have to hammer out exactly how we (as the chemistry community on Wikipedia) believe things should be named- it's not cut & dried. We need to make sure that the rules we propose are as clear as possible, to ensure that we don't have more incidents like the acetone move. Walkerma 22:05, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
I have recently started to upload all new images of chemical structures to the Wikimedia Commons. This way it is possible to use the structures in all different wikipedia projects. I upload high resolution, black/white PNG images. These are of surprisingly small file size (the ethylene glycol image to the right has a size of only 3,198 byte at a resolution of 1372 x 469 pixels). Because of the high resolution they can be rescaled dynamically to any size on wikipedia. Additionally, they can be used for printing and projection without pixel artifacts.
Linking is exactly the same as if the images were upladed to en.wikipedia:
The category [[Category:Chemical structures]] is a Wikimedia Commons category for all chemical structures there.
This is the procedure I currently use for my images:
Wikimedia Commons summary template:
Cacycle 15:11, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think we need to have some means of tracking our progress towards the goals. The Wikipedia:WikiProject_Chemicals/Organization work-list page is clearly the centre of this, but at present we can only see a blue or red link, unless comments have been added. We need to be able to tell whether something is a short stub, a fairly complete article that needs a little work, or something that is "complete". To that end I have put up a system for article assessment system at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Chemicals/Assessment, and the letters range from F (should be deleted) through E (short stub) to A (Done!).
A necessary part of this system would be people to actually perform the assessments. I propose that each one of the sections of our detailed progress on goal lists should have a coordinator who is responsible for that list. They would perform a regular (is monthly too often? Every three months?) check on each one of the pages in their list, and give a quick assessment. For example "Joe" might go through the inorganics list, while Fred does the polymers. If it gets too much, maybe two people can share the responsibility, doing the assessment every other time. The letter could be entered in just after the Wikilink. Once every entry has an A next to it we can say that the goal has been reached. I will give my assessments for the inorganics section (soon) so that people can get a sense of what I mean. I will not assess articles written mainly by me.
One natural cause for concern is if (say) I write an article that I think is great and at the "A" level, then the coordinator gives it a "B" and my feelings are hurt. Are we all grown up enough to handle this?! As explained on the Assessment page it needs to be understood that everyone will have a different view of what is the perfect article, and that's why I think we need a single coordinator for each list. Presumably if anyone does get offended, the coordinator can either perform an edit or be able to say, "We need to have a section on how it is prepared, and perhaps one or two more references." Speaking personally, I have a great deal of respect for the regular contributors to this project.
I think one strict rule should be, however, that the first version of an article should always be independently assessed- if written by the coordinator then it should initially be assessed by someone else. Thereafter the coordinator can assess the progress of that page.
Is this getting way too "overorganised" for a Wikipedia group? The problem is (IMHO) that we have to be able to monitor our progress, and at present it's hard to tell whether our 50 reagent articles include 45 stubs and 5 good articles, or 45 good articles and 5 that need a bit of work. There is also no one person who is systematically assessing them at regular intervals. I think section coordinators are probably a good idea- they can take the lead on things like template changes, goal changes, nominations for featured article, etc.
If people like this idea then I will probably try recruiting coordinators by leaving messages on personal talk pages. Please give comments on this idea after you have looked at the guidelines. Walkerma 22:59, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I took the liberty of assigning some grades to the list of inorganics, so you can see how it would work. It took me one minute per entry to assess the page and tag the entry. I didn't assess pages that I had a lot to do with. Walkerma 21:08, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The three-way split of this important list is almost complete, and I have set a date of May 31st for the end of this page as a list. After that, users will be advised to visit one of the three parts of the list, namely List of inorganic compounds, List of organic compounds, or List of biomolecules. I added a note at the top of the page. At this point the only work left to do is to pull out any biomolecules from the organics list that don't belong there, and to make sure that the biomolecules list is as complete as it should be. So far I have done this up to end of the letter C. Walkerma 18:22, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think it was a good idea for
Physchim62 to separate out the Biochemicals from the Other (miscellaneous) Compounds List on the
Wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals/Organization page.
H Padleckas 02:57, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Absolutely! Thanks, PC. Walkerma 18:19, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yep, mee2. I also edited the target in the formal project wikipage. Wim van Dorst 21:01, 2005 Jun 1 (UTC).
Here is a question for all organic chemists; and biochemist, and chemists and chemical engineers in general and others interested in organic chemistry:
Shown below are two pictures of the structure of m-chloroperoxybenzoic acid, a chemical reagent sometimes used in organic reactions.
Should we standardize the way 6-carbon or 6-atom benzene rings are shown in aromatic compound chemical structures? Should we show them with alternating double and single bonds as shown on the left or with a circle inside the hexagon as shown on the right? Should we just accept both ways as ok, to be decided by whoever creates the picture? Some books show it one way; other books show it the other way.
H Padleckas
11:52, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
I agree with all above comments, thereby invalidating my application to join the Association of Pedantic Wikipedians. IMME Kekulé structures are almost universal in continental Europe, and predominant in UK universities (UK schools insist on the ring form); however, both forms are defendable (and used in journals), and it would be impossible to police any style-preference.
I would also like to propose a secondary projet goal: to produce a style guide for chemicals articles, if only so that we don't have to go wading through Talkpages to remind ourselves what we decided! Current Wikipedia style advice is given at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (chemistry). Physchim62 22:23, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
In User talk:Walkerma/Archive2, it was mentioned that the article Nuclear Magnetic Resonance concentrated on the physical phenomenon and left much to be desired on the analytical applications aspect of NMR Spectroscopy. It was also mentioned that a separate NMR Spectroscopy article should be written up covering these analytical applications using an NMR instrument. As of May 19, 2005, such a separate article has been written by User:Lee-Jon; see NMR Spectroscopy. Also, as of today, I have just written an article discussing the NMR standard tetramethylsilane, often called TMS. H Padleckas 08:51, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Is it worth merging all those haloalkane articles? A number of them, although not very large, have enough unique material to be stand alone articles, instead of just stubs. I mentioned a counterproposal in Talk:Haloalkane, for what it's worth. H Padleckas 10:26, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Now that the list of compounds has been split in three structurally well-defined lists, I propose that we define another activity for our target provide navigational aids to chemicals in wikipedia, as defined in wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals#Goals, viz., the structurally setting up of indexes to the lists, e.g., inorganic compounds by element (already going strong), organic compounds by carbon chainlength and biomolecules by molecular weight. Can we define a target shortlist, SMARTly? How do you all feel about this? Wim van Dorst 23:05, 2005 Jun 1 (UTC).
Having said that, I don't think we should forget that we agreed with K's suggestions for writing a "Chemistry Style Guide." That was a great idea too, let's include it in our goals- but after a short break, perhaps? Walkerma 05:14, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think it's probably good to get this page looking more formal. Henry pointed out the Science Wikiproject standard on this, which should be borne in mind. Names are our biggest issue, but not the only one- I think a more general style guide is needed, because of issues of:
I think that simply referring vaguely to published style guides is not the answer, namely:
As I mentioned above, I want to focus my energies in the next couple of weeks on adding content, but I am willing to participate in writing such a style guide if others think it's worthwhile. Walkerma 21:44, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Strong agree. I will try to put a starter document together so that we can fill in the gaps. Physchim62 22:23, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Strong agree. Well put Walkerma. You said it better than I ever could have. ~K 02:59, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Strong agree.
‣ᓛᖁ
ᑐ 09:44, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Strong bullocks (just kidding, Martin). Of course I agree with your proposal. And I see a sneak preview on PC's pages, which is growing in an excellent way. Why not putting the text directly in the wikipedia:Naming conventions (chemistry) article, PC? Then we can have a discussion about the set up as well as the content. (PS. Your Title paragraph is spot on!). Wim van Dorst 11:57, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC).
Other moves will depend on how far I get with it! Physchim62 12:13, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Proposal copied from Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Criteria
{{ Inorganic-compound-stub}} and {{ organic-compound-stub}} are now up and running: 160 articles in the former and 360 in the latter... Physchim62 20:29, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Our current criteria for A-Class articles are:
Four articles currently reach this standard: Iron(III) chloride, Phosphorus tribromide, Toluene and Zinc chloride.
In order to reconcile our assessment guidelines with the assessment practices of the different project participants (it wasn't just me who did the assessments), I propose the following criteria:
Comments? Physchim62 22:20, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Albeit that I profess to be very much in favour of practicality, I d on't think we should downgrade our duly balanced A-Class before we have even started. Therefore I remain strongly supporting Martin's original 'tough' definition, boiling down to very realistic and imho important requirements:
As all of these are of course still subjective requirements, I also strongly support PC's proposal for a peer-review page for A-Class articles. Wim van Dorst 08:47, 2005 Jun 6 (UTC).
I am in the process of writing a new article called which I plan to call Phosphoric acids and Phosphates. It is currently on the following Temp page: User:H Padleckas/Temp (Phosphoric acids and Phosphates), because I have not created the main illustration yet. A section at the bottom of this temp article: User:H Padleckas/Temp (Phosphoric acids and Phosphates)#Phosphate and Phosphite Esters covers "Phosphate and Phosphite Esters" until a separate article on the subject can be developed. Two images of general chemical structures have been included in this section, one of a phosphate triester and one of a phosphite triester.
If anybody has any philosophical comments on this endeavor, let me know. H Padleckas 16:32, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Someone on IRC reported the tables at Wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals/Organization being broken since the upgrade. I found that the problem was caused by having multiple "colspan" attributes on the table cells -- there's one in template:chembox header and another one explicitly set. On the older version of the software, the 'HTML tidy' postprocessing removed the first one (from the template) and kept the second one, while the new HTML fixup code in MediaWiki 1.5 kept the first one instead, causing the table to be formatted rather differently.
I've changed MediaWiki's fixup code to behave the same way as tidy, keeping the last instead of the first when there are more than one, and the tables appear to be rendering as intended again. -- Brion June 29, 2005 21:56 (UTC)
The starter document is now at Wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals/Style guidelines, and open for comment and improvement. Peer review is particularly requested for the Title section, in view of replacing the current Wikipedia:Naming conventions (chemistry). Physchim62 20:08, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I keep meaning to add a paragraph into the title section to deal with IUPAC non-recommended names which we insist on using in Wikipedia. A few examples (please feel free to find more):
My reading of the Red book (the 2004 draft doesn't change much in this area) is that stoichiometric nomenclature is always recommended, but that Stock nomenclature is tolerated for ionic compounds with integral oxidation states. Obviously, WikiPractice is that we use Stock nomenclature for most transition metal compounds, except when there is a better alternative (See the general rule).
I vote disagree to allowing Aldrich to determine our naming policy, if only because of #UnspecifiedDeity knows how many minutes of my time I have wasted explaining to PhD students the (non)logic of their system, as in "Don't worry, after six months you'll remember that methanol is listed under methanol but ethanol is listed under ethyl alcohol". The best internationally-accepted name can only be determined by reference to a number of sources, if then. Physchim62 19:30, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Just mentioning that I have posted some new pictures on Commons- best to start here. The compounds are Al & Ca sulfates, SbF3, Sb2O3, As2O3, Bi2O3, Na3PO4, KNO3, KMnO4, CaF2, Ca(OH)2, Na2S2O3, silicic acid, boric acid, CAN, PdCl2, CsCl, ZnO. I also redid pictures of KCl & LiCl (I'm getting better at taking then now), and uploaded a few older ones to Commons too. I will probably be adding a few more new ones this coming week too. I will add pictures to the pages where we have them as time allows this week, but if you are planning on working on any of the above you should take note. Also, if you have any requests for pictures, please let me know- this week is about the best week for it for the light- though be aware that it is extremely humid here, and my attempt at a new FeCl3 picture saw the sample turning liquid before my eyes! Walkerma 18:22, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I will try to get those you mention- we have both HF and CO out in use at the moment. No RhCl3 or IrCl3 or related Ph3P complexes, I'm afraid. We have tiny amounts of Rh2(OAc)4, Rh2O3, and Pd(OAc)2, and PtCl4 solution, I will snap these when I can, when the weather abates. Walkerma 23:29, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Actually poisons are a problem, at least till August- I got a picture of As2O3 while I had the chance. Cyanides can't be handled without a special protocol, and guess who should be writing the protocol instead of writing Wikipedia articles! I want to use NaCN in my research next year, so I will be doing that. Walkerma 15:32, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I will try to do this when I get the chance- probably some in early July. I tried taking a picture of CrO3 recently but couldn't get the top off the bottle! Such poisons are now locked away for a while, but I'll do my best! We have all 4 combos of salts (Na/K, chromate/dichromate). There is a picture of CrCl3 hydrate already at chromium(III) chloride- were you wanting a better picture? Walkerma 07:45, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Following PCs proposal, I have created the wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals/List of A-Class articles, and filled it with the current thirty, including the open remarks. Wim van Dorst 23:42, 2005 Jun 16 (UTC).
I have been working on the A-Class articles, and upgraded several with new chemboxes and additional data for them (can't get the speed of PC, I'm sorry to say ;-). Now I have completely revisited the list of A-Class articles, and found (in my humble opinion) seven full blown A-Class articles and some twenty with smaller and bigger issues to solve. I would appreciate others to add to the new remarks and/or solve the issues. Of course I keep working on them too. Would it be fitting to put a date on the upgrading to real A-Class work ('if not done by ..., these articles will be B-Classified')? Wim van Dorst July 5, 2005 21:05 (UTC).
I added tables to all the amino acid pages. I put a strike through all the NO TABLE notices on the chemicals table. I'm not sure if this is proper practice, i'm sorry if its not. The tables do need proper IUPAC names put into them though. Does any one who is good at nomenclature want to do this? I have done a few but there are some that I don't know how to name. Thanks. Borb 14:23, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
No problems, Borb. Personally I prefer the short form tables on these articles for the moment, until we get round to writing the content that they need: just look at the corresponding German articles, which have long form tables with no more text content than we have... If no-one else gets round to filling them out before the end of the month, I will work on them when I get to the UK (otherwise, I can always do the French versions!). Don't forget to delete text content which is simply repeating content in the tables (ie, if there is no additional comment), and to delete table line which are inappropriate (eg, boiling points when the compound decomposes before melting). ¡Hasta Luego! Physchim62 4 July 2005 07:49 (UTC)
Hi guys, I designed an NFPA diamond (fire diamond) that can be used on the chemical pages. It's actually made up of three images, to make it a little easier for me, anyway. Here's how to use it:
So, [[Image:nfpa_h4.png]][[Image:nfpa_f4_w.png]][[Image:nfpa_r4.png]] gives you:
Should we add it to the standard data table for the chemicals? Do you see any changes I should make? They really should be templates to be a little easier to put on the pages...does anyone want to create 100+ templates? ;-) Also,
Walkerma said they should be a little smaller...I'll try to work on that a little later today. I put some of these on a few pages already...check
sodium chloride,
acetone,
potassium chlorate,
hydrochloric acid, and
hydrofluoric acid. Let me know what you guys think.
Addaone June 29, 2005 14:31 (UTC)
So are we going to add the NFPA diamonds to the infobox template, or just add them afterwards when we have the information? ~K 30 June 2005 15:10 (UTC)
There isn't much doubt, is there? So I put it in the formal chembox table. Note that I did not link it to the programming explanation but to the information about what the numbers mean. Wim van Dorst July 1, 2005 20:28 (UTC).
For reference the full range: (there is a hint here until Addaone gets to it). Wim van Dorst July 1, 2005 20:28 (UTC).
For everyones information, I've found a website that lists about a billion NFPA ratings on various chemicals. I put it on the NFPA_704 page, but I wanted to mention it here so it can get used. ~K 7 July 2005 04:07 (UTC)
text moved to pertaining section on wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals/List of A-Class articles#Protein
This is an extensive though mostly unlinked listing that appeared out of the blue. I contacted the author already. It covers inorganics and organics, with a heavy emphasis on what I presume are semiconductor materials. The listing seems rather odd in what is put in and what is left out; the most important gold compound, gold(III) chloride is absent, yet obscure things like triethylphosphine gold(I) chloride are included. This may reflect the interests of the author, perhaps. Also some hydrates are listed as separate from the anhydrous compounds, although I cannot foresee the day when we have a separate page both aluminium bromide and aluminium bromide hexahydrate. Nevertheless someone has done a lot of work and the listing may be useful to the project. Walkerma 7 July 2005 16:58 (UTC)
The formulae in the list have been ordered according to these rules:
Anyone who wants to is invited to edit the dictionary, adding new compound formulas, removing formulas, adding alternative names for a given formula, adding hyperlinks from the name of a compound to its article, &c. just as long as the rules (or at least the most important ones, such as the first ten) are followed. Anyway, in the future, if I get around to it, I might browse Wikipedia articles about individual chemical compounds and categories of families of compounds to see about adding more entries to the list, with their names hyperlinked to their articles, so as to increase the list's usefulness. — AugPi 23:30, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for all of your hard work, I hope this will become an indispensible part of the chemistry pages on Wikipedia. Walkerma 03:45, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
UPDATE: I have copied the rules (without questions) onto the talk page, and added a sentence on the article page that links to this. However, I notice that the page is already 60 kB long, we're supposed to keep things below 30, but it's only going to get bigger. Should this be split into organics and inorganics? Walkerma 06:15, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Does someone want to write a quick stub to replace this ****? Physchim62 09:56, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
I happened across this article, Aliphatic compound, and it seemed like it could use some expansion, although, not being a chemist, I don't know exactly what. It's not listed on your worklist, so I thought I'd mention it here in case you'd like to take it in hand. Thanks for all your good work on Wikipedia! JesseW 08:01, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I have archived all the older discussions on this page, as a nice summer clean-out. This leaves only the active things to work on during the rest of the summer, notably all the things on the List of A-Class articles and of course the worklist of the Chemicals WikiProject. I wish everybody (including myself ;-) success with it. Wim van Dorst 21:11, 30 July 2005 (UTC).
Sodium_hypochlorite -- I cannot figure if the article has been vandalized to a POV or just hasn't been expanded. Please help.
I have uploaded collections of gas densities, viscosities and solubility products which people might find useful in filling out chemboxes. Enjoy! Physchim62 00:26, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
And shall we delete RNA and Peptide from the worklist, just as we did Protein and DNA. Wim van Dorst 22:04, 3 September 2005 (UTC).
On April 14, Martin added squalene oxide to our worklist. Is this intentional, or did you mean squalene. Wim van Dorst 22:04, 3 September 2005 (UTC).
In the worklist the building block malonic ester is mentioned. Which ester would that be? PC already suggests dimethyl malonate, although diethyl malonate (DEM) is an alternative. Or would perhaps malonic acid be a better alternative instead? (I'm going for the unclassifieds, if anyone had noticed). Wim van Dorst 22:35, 12 September 2005 (UTC).
While working on reducing the number of Unclassifieds (mostly red links like this one) in the worklist, I took the liberty of pruning about nine Unclassifieds from the Inorganics section on the worklist. All were there as a second choice to elements where there was already a classified (Stub/Start or better) alternative. The removed entries have actually only been moved to below the Inorganics table, and can be put back when inadvertently I have removed the important compound in favour of a minor compound. It was all about the obscurer elements, so I hope this was ok. Please feel free to correct if necessary, of course. Wim van Dorst 19:23, 15 September 2005 (UTC).
I propose that we omit this from the building blocks list, just because it's not an isolable compound on Earth at room temperature. Thus I think you would be unable to get MP, BP, density etc, and it is not used on Earth as a building block in an organic synthesis (though acetaldehyde, the tautomer, is a building block). Walkerma 20:22, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Hmm.... Well, head on over and give your two bits, if you want. ~K 18:49, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
OK, we've all been putting it off, but if benzene is not going to be an FA just yet, should we work on one? If it is to be a compound I think it should definitely be an organic compound, to complement the inorganic FA in the spring. An alternative could be a reaction or process, or perhaps a concept, but the compounds have been generally more peer reviewed because of this project. It also needs to be something the general person will have heard of or would be interested in (though please can we avoid illicit drugs!?). Benzene would certainly be a possibility, with some work it could be good. Do other people have suggestions Walkerma 04:57, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm no good at chemistry, but I know that Sodium hydroxide needs you guys' attention. There's no picture, the hard chemical data is mediocre, and a few other things are bad, too, see the talk page. Thanks! HereToHelp 20:49, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I am sorry if I am spoiling anything but I would like to be somewhat involved in this wikiproject. Is that possible, as chemistry is my favourite subject? Xeno Neon
For information on chemicals, go to
http://www.chemicalland21.com and click on one of the colored bars in the left frame
(
Industrial chemicals,
Life science products, etc). Note: I have no connection to this site. I just discovered it 30 minutes ago, and it's been helpful.
If anyone has any other useful resources, please add them. Twilight Realm 23:06, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
There should be a section at the bottom (or top) for people to add suggestions of chemicals to work on. Twilight Realm 03:28, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi all, with the last worklist compound ethyl bromoacetate now having an nice stub article (I even unhumbly classified it as Chem Start), we have now reached the stage that we can only go up. There are no unclassified to drop off any more (e.g., zirconium(IV) chloride), nor are there obvious articles to be weeded from the list as they might be vague as a single compound (e.g., Protein and DNA). So in a week or so when we make up the next statistics table, the total number (380 if I counted right) is consisting of only real articles! Wim van Dorst 22:32, 23 September 2005 (UTC).
I came across de:Alkane as a (deservedly) featured article in the German Wikipedia, and I'm in the process of translating it into English for here. Other German featured articles of interest to us are Ethylene, Benzene, Toluene and Anthocyanin, as well as Arsenic and Barium among the elements. Anyone else interested in a bit of translation work? Physchim62 12:47, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
While attacking the Chem Stubs in the list, I found those that should in my humble opinion be Chem Start and simultaneously I found Chem Starts that should be Chem Stub. The fine line between the two should be drawn a little clearer, therefore I propose the following rewording of the wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals/Assessment
Grade | Description | Summary |
Stub | The article is a very short article or a stub that will need a lot of work to bring it to A-Class level. It may lack most or all significant sections. | limited text, no chembox, no refs |
Start | The article is short, but has some good sections, such as a chembox data table description of uses, production and/or chemical and physical properties. It may lack several signicant sections. | some text+chembox, limited in the sections |
I could think of a rewording in this line for B-Class as well, but I'm not working on those yet. The rephrasing for Stub and Start would make it possible to re-categorize all Stubs and Starts into proper work targets (viz., no Stubs and at least Starts). Wim van Dorst 12:54, 23 October 2005 (UTC).
Now that I have a liitle bit of time to breathe, I am in the process of implementing a chemical safety project that Eequor and I discussed over the summer. Each code for the R- and S-phrases will correspond to a template (I've done most of the R-phrases so far, hope to finish this weekend): for example, R45 corresponds to Template:R45, and when you type {{R45}} you see {{R45}} on the page. Now hold the cursor over the link...
The templates use the {{ abbr}} template: for the example above, the code is {{subst:abbr|May cause cancer|R45}}.
The official R- and S-phrases for any compound may be found on the site of the European Chemicals Bureau:
Feel free to use these templates liberally, in the interests of public information! Physchim62 06:44, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi all, acetic acid has been up for a month on Peer Review (read archived text here), during which it saw numerous improvements even after it had been classified already as Chem A-Class. The current article is to me now excellent enough to be proposed for FAC. Shall we move on? Wim van Dorst 14:55, 24 October 2005 (UTC).
It is up on WP:FAC now!!! Wim van Dorst 23:11, 3 November 2005 (UTC).
Congratulations to all who worked on Acetic acid, which has now become a Featured Article in Wikipedia. H Padleckas 08:43, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I've added a couple of templates we might use to keep track of article progress. These are {{
inorganic-compound-start}} and {{
organic-compound-start}}:
{{inorganic-compound-start}}
{{organic-compound-start}}
Each of these has a category for its articles,
Category:Incomplete inorganic compound articles and
Category:Incomplete organic compound articles. The idea is to list all the {{
chem start}} articles, including those not on the worklist. How does this sound?
‣ᓛᖁ
ᑐ
18:58, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Although this has been discussed before, Henry proposed an interesting proposition about how to handle several isomers of one compound. Together with our own style guides, I would like to word it as follows:
If we can agree to this, perhaps this should be part of the styleguide? Wim van Dorst 08:37, 29 October 2005 (UTC).
All isomers/compounds are notable to some extent: Single compound pages. No single isomer of note: One page for all. One single isomer of note, other isomers not notable: Single compound page and isomers page, unless this is not deemed worthwhile, in which case one combined page. Large no. of related compounds, some of which are related: Family page + single compound pages. Walkerma 14:13, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Also see List of multi-compound articles below at the end of #Groups of chemical compounds: thiophenols, toluidines. H Padleckas 11:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
For the moment, there is no guidance on creating articles about acids and their conjugate anions. The following proposal is current practice, I will add it to the guidelines if there is support among editors:
Again, comments please. Physchim62 21:23, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
While we're talking about these sorts of issues, it seems to me that we have a big need for pages that cover the chemistry of a metal in its compounds. Non-metals get the equivalent- we have oxygen and oxide, chlorine and chloride, so why not iron and iron compounds (or compounds of iron or chemistry of iron)? The element page clearly focusses on the metal itself, with compounds as a simple add-on. The individual compound pages are too narrow a focus to cover the whole chemistry. And more obscure compounds that perhaps one interesting aspect either get a silly stub, a random mention on another (random) page such as the chloride (e.g., you can make this interesting complex from MCl3), or you get nothing. It would give a broader view, reviewing all of the compounds e.g. from Fe(CO)5 to FeSO4 to haemoglobin, all in one article. I'd held off even mentioning this idea knowing that we already have a mountain of work to do- but as we plan the future direction of substance articles I thought it was worth mentioning. Comments anyone? Walkerma 02:25, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
This last summer
WikiProject Polymers was initiated in Wikipedia. During the last couple of months, more participants have signed up and this WikiProject is starting to become more active. For example,
H Padleckas has signed up to participate.
On the
WikiProject Chemicals/Organization page, there is a
list of Polymers. I would like to suggest moving this list over to WikiProject Polymers. Being active Wikipedia participants, you can still work on these polymer articles over there too and sign up like I did. Does this seem OK to you guys?
H Padleckas
06:35, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm currently working through the chemboxes on inorganics articles, creating data pages and listing MSDSs etc. It struck me that some articles which have been assessed as starts are really only stubs, so I went through the entire list of inorganic starts. The articles to which I refer are:
Can someone else have a look over them and regrade if necessary. Physchim62 (talk· RfA) 12:38, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for taking a look at them! I'm not sure that it's really grade inflation that's the problem here, more the fact that our grade criteria have beome clearer over the months. You can take it two ways:
Both of these statements are true, needless to say! Physchim62 (talk· RfA) 06:16, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi - you use a template on your organisation page catted {{ Chem Stub}}, designed to add the word "stub" to the tables you have there. There is a discussion underway at WP:SFD#.7B.7BStub-Class.7D.7D_.28no_category.29 which directly affects this template, and which we would value your input on. In summary:
Your opinions are welcomed! Grutness... wha? 03:42, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
It is merely a table aid to indicate that an article is Stub, similar to {{ Chem Start}}, {{ Chem B-Class}} and {{ Chem A-Class}}. The offending category link has been removed now, and there is not controversial issue anymore. Thanks for pointing out that something needed to be fixed. Wim van Dorst 12:57, 5 November 2005 (UTC).
I have noticed that sometimes the elements in chemical formulas are linked to the element articles. I think this looks confusing because of the underlined characters and it is unnecessary as long as there is a link to chemical formula nearby. The formula is usually only interesting for people which already know how to read the formula, all others should read the article on chemical formulas where the common elements are explained. The only exception could be non-common elements (not C, H, N, O, and S). What do you think. Cacycle 22:46, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
According to our own guidelines, we ought to use the iupac name for the wikipages. But while working on ethylene dichloride (EDC), I encountered a whole group of similarly named C2-compounds, viz. ethylene (not ethene), ethylene dichloride (not 1,2-dichloroethane), a new ethylidene dichloride (not 1,1-dichloroethane), etc. Outside of the organic chemistry classes, no one would normally say 1,2-dichloroethane to EDC, so the whole article (well, merely Chem Start quality) is written using the colloquial name, or even the abbreviation. Wikipedia guideline (can't find a ref just now) says to use the name as will be normally used to designate a certain subject for the wikipage title. In the chemistry guideline it says systematic name. Now what? POLL: Ethylene dichloride (and equivalents) or 1,2-dichloroethane? Wim van Dorst 08:55, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
A rule of thumb I've used in the past when starting new articles is that if a traditional name wins the Google poll by a significant margin, then use it; otherwise go with IUPAC. Hence ethylene over ethene. Now, looking at other C2 compounds, Google says:
Following these recommendations, I have moved both ethylidene dichloride and ethylene dichloride to the correct IUPAC names of 1,1-dichloroethane and 1,2-dichloroethane. Thanks for the clear opinions to make this action obvious. PS. I prefer ethene over ethylene. Wim van Dorst 21:08, 10 November 2005 (UTC).
Sorry to be a Johnny-come-lately, but shouldn't those names be 1,2-Dichloroethane and 1,1-Dichloroethane, as described in our naming guidelines? Walkerma 22:13, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
I think its counter-intuitive to NOT include the capital in the name! Actually it came out of the lists of compounds, where it was apparent that both forms were used, and we had things like 1,2-dichloroethane (no capital if in mid-sentence!) listed under "1" rather than under "D". Cacycle proposed the idea for capitalisation, and I supported it, it emphasises the start of the word. This is on the grounds that when naming a compound like Chloroethane we capitalise the start of the word in Wikipedia article names, just like in any chemical catalogue. Since all prefixes in chemical names "don't count" (look in any catalogue, even our stockroom list is done this way) when alphabetising, we go to the start of the word part of the name. To do otherwise would go against what chemists are used to. BTW, Wim, thanks for dealing with the objections on the acetic acid FAC page, I was truly impressed by your diligence! Walkerma 22:52, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
I would have a tendency to go with the IUPAC names for 1,2-dichloroethane and 1,1-dichloroethane and even for ethene(changed my mind for consistency with propylene and butylene articles) with redirects from all commonly-used "common names". I remember when I wrote the
Benzenediols article, I made a ton of Redirects. However, I agree that the general public and professionals use "ethylene" a lot more than "ethene", so I would understand making
Ethylene the main article. However at this point, I'm going to leave in up to you guys. I once wrote the article
Ethanoyl chloride (based on the IUPAC name "ethanoic acid") and watched it changed to
Acetyl chloride. Maybe there's an even more official IUPAC name for ethanoyl chloride. I do understand that for some compounds, the IUPAC names are horribly unwieldly and are practically never used, except as a note under a more common name. For these, of course, the commonly used names ought to be used for articles (especially including some polymers).
H Padleckas 08:31, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
H Padleckas
19:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Yet another complication with IUPAC naming is that many names can be written as 1-propanol or propan-1-ol, 2-propanol or propan-2-ol, 1,3-butadiene or buta-1,3-diene, 1-butene or but-1-ene. AOL searches of the pairs including 1-propanol, 2-propanol, and 1,3-butadiene have shown me that the number prefixes at the beginning of the name generate far more hits than names with the numbers in the middle, by ratios ranging 7 - 18 to 1. H Padleckas 12:14, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
user:H_Padleckas just added thiophenols to the worklist, and while looking at that change I noticed that there is also toluidines in there. Now, both articles are not about a specific chemical compound but more indicate a class of chemicals. I propose to have them replace in the list by the most important compounds out of the group, e.g., Thiophenol (currently redirected back to thiophenols) and p-Toluidine (currently redirected back to toluidines). Same as 1,3,5-Triazine for the triazines. Wim van Dorst 20:51, 11 November 2005 (UTC).
Here's the list of group-of-compound articles (I alluded to previously above) which I've worked on and off for the past week or so:
Status of some isomer articles and suggestions?? Any suggestions on the individual compound/group articles can be placed right after it.
My recommendation: keep it this way. I actually would like to eventually write more on xylenes; there is more to say about them.(HP)
My recommendation: keep it this way.(HP)
At this time, I don't know what to do about these. (HP)
My recommendation: I favor having one 3-isomer article, but updating the Table eventually. (HP)
My recommendation: Give n-butane and isobutane equal status and make a double Table which includes n-butane and isobutane. Move to article to Butane isomers with redirects coming from all possibilities. Alternatively, there could be two separate rather equal articles, one on each isomer. (HP)
My recommendation: I favor an article called Butadiene where there is some elementary introductory discussion of both isomers, but mentioning that 1,3-butadiene is far more important industrially and that the rest of the article will effective cover and have a Table for only the 1,3-isomer. Please see the comment to that effect in Talk:1,3-Butadiene. (HP)
My recommendation: Merge the 2 articles into Propanol isomers with a double Table, although it's ok to keep them separate. (HP)
My recommendation: keep it this way and add a quadruple Table. Most of the discussion on each isomer is common to the others anyway. Alternatively, the article name can be changed to Butylene isomers. The reason I didn't call it Butene isomers is because isobutylene would be methylpropene in IUPAC.
My recommendation: keep it this way and add a quadruple Table. Most of the discussion on each isomer is common to the others anyway. (HP)
My recommendation: keep it this way. (HP)
My recommendation: maybe we can keep things the way they are. (HP)
My recommendation: I am now thinking I should merge the DEA and TEA articles into Ethanolamine, but have the article effectively cover only MEA in any detail and have a Table for only MEA, but mention DEA and TEA and, near the end of the article, include their structure pics.
Have I left any out? Judging from certain comments made since I started working in this list, I'm afraid I suspect some of my recommendations may get a chilly reception. :-/
In many of the cases of related isomers, much of the discussion is very similar and it would be redundant to have the same similar discussions in 2 or 3 separate articles, but it can be done. Splitting up some of these multi-compound articles may result in short, stubby, rather repetitive, single articles. Separate single Tables of Properties can be made for each isomer, to be put in separate articles. A benefit of having a double or triple Table is that the properties of the isomers (compounds) can be compared side by side. However in this day and age, printouts of separate pages can be made and compared side by side that way. Some 2 or 3 compound articles may eventually be split up as Wikipedia expands.
Also in many cases, there may be a "parent" compound which has a certain skeleton structure, often a ring or group of rings, whose name serves as the name for a group or class of compounds which have that same skeleton structure but with substitutions on it. I think this should be explained in Wikipedia whenever there is an article on a compound which has an important such group of compounds named after it, such as purines, pyrimidines, thiophenols, dibenzofurans, etc. All three triazine isomers are in this "category." H Padleckas 10:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
The vote is open after a recent page move. Note that Isobutane exists as a substub. Physchim62 (talk) 12:28, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
As an active mover, I'm also a pliant mover, readily to bow before people who really know the IUPAC naming conventions. It is back. Wim van Dorst 22:07, 12 November 2005 (UTC).
There are two systems of nomenclature for organic compounds (and likely inorganics as well):
In addition to these, there are sometimes trivial names.
I believe the naming for C4H10 is as follows:
The common naming system is often used more than the IUPAC naming system.
The two compounds have a lot in common, and probably of roughly equal importance. Previously, a single article covered both of them, with the n-butane being the main compound having its own Table and isobutane being its sidekick without its own Table. Some of the discussion for the two compounds would be very similar if each compound had its own separate article. If it was all up to me, I would have one article giving both compounds about equal importance and have a double Table covering both compounds. I have created a couple of triple Tables of Properties already for cases of closely related isomers, for example: Xylene and Cresol. I was planning to create more such Tables; for example, I am working on a triple Table for the three isomers of Benzenediol offline. Is it the WikiProject Chemical's intention to have separate articles for every chemical compound ? H Padleckas 07:47, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
On a related note, where should we draw the line for alkane articles? At present, we have articles for all straight-chain alkanes up to
hexatriacontane (C36H74), which seems to me to be overkill! My proposal is to merge all articles from
nonane to
hexatriacontane into a
higher alkanes article, while keeping a seperate article for
tetradecane
hexadecane (because of its role as the basis for
cetane numbers). I am currently working on the hexanes, so watch this space!
Physchim62
(talk)
09:05, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
I've started Wikipedia: WikiProject Chemicals/Data as a repository of useful web sites for finding physical properties & other info in composing chemical compound articles. Shimmin 17:55, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
The information on methane and its presentation is not up to the standard of other articles in Wikipedia.
Much of it is simply unintelligible (perhaps written by people who speak English as a second language?). There are many statements that are, at best, misleading, and at worst complete nonsense, eg: "Methane acts on organic rich shales and produces a minor contribution (1-3%) to form petroleum with true biomarkers as hopanoids and others insaturated hydrocarbons (n-alkenes). Methane interacts with peats, forming coal and bearing mercury, nickel, arsenic,cadmium, selenium, vanadium, uranium and other toxic metals."
Someone with a good knowledge of organic geochemistry AND the English language please should rewrite the entire entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.210.13 ( talk • contribs)
Changes in worklist status between 2005-06-02 and 2005-09-02, all articles grouped | |||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Grade |
From A-Class | From B-Class | From Start | From Stub | From unclassified |
New to list | |
To | A-Class | X | 2 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 2 |
To | B-Class | 6 | X | 1 | 2 | 0 | 5 |
To | Start | 0 | 0 | X | 2 | 7 | 6 |
To | Stub | 1 | 0 | 0 | X | 14 | 15 |
To | Unclassified | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | X | 5 |
To | Deleted from list | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 5 | X |
Now that we've worked hard and acetic acid is a featured article, it will be on the main page on December 1st, 2005. I don't know exactly what this will mean for the acetic acid page itself, but I can guess that there will be a LARGE amount of editting to the article that day. I'm guessing that some of the edits will be useful, some will be useless, but most will be vandals. I just want to ask people to keep an eye out for vandalism and useless edits. ~K 08:50, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
It was moved to December 2nd, 2005. I can wait. ~K 15:55, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I just wanted to say congratulations on getting acetic acid featured. It's not easy to write featured-quality articles on technical subjects. And I'd like to see more science-related featured articles. Incidentally, we borrowed your organization scheme for WP:MED—good idea! — Knowledge Seeker দ 07:21, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
This page contains archive discussion about the wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals for 2005
I would like to participate in this work. I am a chemistry professor working in the US. My area of speciality is in organic chemistry, though I also use a lot of inorganics, particularly lanthanides, in my research. I recently began making contributions to Wikipedia, for example cerium(III) chloride.
I would suggest that we look at developing a standard format for pages on chemical compounds (the chemical elements already look very nice!). This may need some variation- for example something common like methanol has data such as triple point, whereas something more complex like morphine will not. In addition, I would suggest that we have one format for inorganic compounds and another for organics.
I would also suggest that we tighten up on naming. I have noticed that for inorganics some metal compounds are named like copper(II) chloride (this follows the IUPAC and ACS rules), while others are named like copper (II) chloride (with a space after the metal- this is not an official naming convention as far as I know). I think we should standardise all names to the IUPAC/ACS system, which is what I understand Wikipedia is aiming to do.
I want to get the discussion started and get people's thoughts on what should be done. Also, could someone tell me how I can sign up as a participant- as a newbie, am I eligible to do this? I refrained from editing the page to do this, because of the warning at the top of the page!
Thanks, Martin A. Walker Walkerma
I tend to enjoy working on articles about rather obscure things, and a lot of chemical compounds fall into this category. However, for many of these compounds, I don't have access to a lot of information. I would be willing to contribute a bit here and a bit there, adding the information I have available, but I won't necessarily be able to provide full coverage on a lot of these compounds.
I added an infobox for acenaphthylene, but it's mostly question marks at this point. Are there any comments or suggestions before I do this kind of thing for more compounds? — Bkell 06:37, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Hi, here are some requests for your project (i'm not a chemist, or would offer to contribute)
Duk 19:14, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the input- we must address this when we choose a template. There are already a couple of pages on naming. The inorganic naming still needs some work, though there is one page that is a good start- see Systematic name. There is an excellent page for organic compounds naming at IUPAC nomenclature which is a fabulous resource for those learning organic chemistry- even "mere mortals". What seems to be really lacking is good linking to these pages- so we need to ensure that any templates we use include links on this. After only two months on Wikipedia, I've seen this problem already, see Talk:Silver(I) fluoride.
As for polymers, that is another whole field, one which I know very little about- I only know the common acronyms. Since polymers are commercially VERY important, we need to have something on this. We do have Category:Organic polymers, and a few acronyms show up there and on List of compounds (look under the "P"s particularly). I may start something off on acronyms, but it'll be pretty basic! Walkerma 22:29, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There seems to be total confusion out there on how to name inorganic compounds! To help resolve this I went rummaging in my basement and dug out the relevant journal (JACS, 82, 5525 (1960)), the most relevant pages are now scanned in at http://www2.potsdam.edu/walkerma/inorg_naming.pdf This is the original set of rules, I am ordering a book on the latest revisions, but my understanding is that these rules are by-and-large still current. When there are variable or non-obvious oxidation states, the basics are:
I will try to work on correcting material on naming already on Wikipedia, since this will become a primary reference for us.
I would like to propose that one of our first tasks should be to get all existing compounds pages to conform to the above rules. Any comments? Walkerma 22:45, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I think alphabetical listings are not always the best way to classify chemical compounds. For example, what if you want to find out all of the compounds of aluminium that have pages? Or if you want to know what pages there are for organics containing four carbons, or of formula C4H10O? To begin addressing this I have begun writing a page Inorganic compounds by element which deals with the first problem. I thought long and hard, and researched some chem catalogues to try and pick out what I believe to be a pretty complete list of IMPORTANT compounds of those elements. I have tabulated them and used formulae, in order to keep it extremely concise. In my opinion, one problem with List of compounds is that it is full of obscure compounds that no one is ever going to write a page on. Another problem with list of compounds is that it only has one compound per line, so you have to scroll down a lot to find things.
Another nice thing about Inorganic compounds by element is that we can give a direct link from (for example) the aluminium page to Inorganic_compounds_by_element#Aluminium, this would be very useful.
I think we should also have an organics page listed by chemical formula (Hill formula order- C, then H, then others alphabetically) which would address the organics queries mentioned. Comments, anyone? Walkerma 19:38, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
These lists are coming along nicely and should be pretty much ready soon. My view is that
Please comment or add your suggestions. Walkerma 07:56, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps we should indicated per section what the specific requirement for the articles are, e.g., which infobox to use, and which things are minimal (references?). And are the infoboxes final enough to be ready for real use? I have a question open there about linking back to the chem infobox wikipage. Wim van Dorst 20:52, 2005 Apr 13 (UTC).
This article REALLY bothers me on so many levels. Not only should it be named "Dimethyl sulfone", but most of the info in it is quackery. I would like to edit this article, adding more chemistry information. However, I feel I may be entering a battlezone. Can you give me advice as to how I (or we) should proceed? ~K 03:45, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I started an article called
Phosphorus chlorides. Phosphorus trichloride, phosphorus pentachloride, and diphosphorus tetrachloride are 3 chlorides mentioned in there. I inserted references to these in
Chloride,
Hydrogen chloride, and in
Acyl chlorides in a new preparation section. Also the
Benzoyl chloride stub mentions PCl5. The article has been expanded slightly and molecular images were added. Since then
User:Walkerma has written articles on
Phosphorus trichloride and
Phosphorus trifluoride, in addition to the previous article on
Phosphorus tribromide. It is not clear what will be done about the other phosphorus chlorides.
H Padleckas 16:20, 18 Apr - 2 May 2005 (UTC)
I noticed this amino acid article listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion: 3,4-Methano-1,2,3,4-tetrahydroisoquinoline-3-carboxylic acid. If you know anything about it (or are willing to learn ;-), please cast your vote. Wipe 12:24, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
For future reference, the complete discussion can be found here: Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/3,4-Methano-1,2,3,4-tetrahydroisoquinoline-3-carboxylic acid. Wipe 15:16, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Please see
Talk:Cyanuric acid and see if you know the answer to the question posed there?
H Padleckas
06:43, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
For those who don't watch Wikipedia:Chemical_infobox, we are working on a major revision of the standard template for the properties table. Please take a look at the draft version of the new table and leave comments here. The earlier discussion mainly occurs here. Walkerma 03:54, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
The development of the new chembox is in its final stadium. Please be informed that full discussion is going on at the above links, and the forthcoming version (draft till tomorrow) is visible there too. Everybody is strongly invited to contribute now. Wim van Dorst 12:56, 2005 May 16 (UTC).
The new version of the full chembox has now been posted. Walkerma 18:05, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Here's something to consider: the normal naming convention for article titles is that the title should be the most commonly used name for the article's topic, with the correct name, if different, being mentioned as soon as possible in the article. We need to work out how we reconcile this with moving towards IUPAC names as standard within articles. -- The Anome 08:36, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)
The other (more serious) issue is to define what is common. There are huge differences between different parts of the world (I am a Brit living in the US so I see this a lot!): For example poly(ethene) (IUPAC?? I'm not a polymer chemist!) is known in the US as polyethylene, but in the UK it is always called by the ICI tradename (they invented it), polythene. The other aspect is between disciplines: For example an inorganic chemist will tend to use the "correct" name for SmI2, samarium(II) iodide, but since this reagent has become popular with organic chemists, you will often see organic papers where it is referred to by a pseudo-organic name, samarium diiodide. That's just within chemistry! When you consider usage of chemicals in other diverse fields such as geology, physics, biology, etc., there are names used that I (as a chemist) had never heard of (such as Blue_stone for copper(II) sulfate).
Fortunately the redirect command can deal with the worst effects of this problem- I don't really care if I find methylene chloride listed as dichloromethane, as long as there is a redirect to help me find the page. Walkerma 17:34, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The following "WikiProject Science" page/link: Wikipedia:WikiProject Science#IUPAC Standard says on this matter:
Just information for your consideration. H Padleckas 11:00, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
We also have Wikipedia:Naming conventions (chemistry) to compare this with! As if that wasn't enough IUPAC allows various options- thus acetone could be called acetone, propanone, propan-2-one or 2-propanone, and all of these are IUPAC (as far as I know, please correct me!). I think we need to find the common sense middle ground, and certainly consider common usage, but we should strongly favour the IUPAC name if it is used. I recently did a request move after some unknown user decided to cut&paste the acetone page over to propanone, and acetone became a redirect until I had it reset (see Talk:Acetone). I turned sulfuric(VI) acid into a redirect, yet I also moved ferric chloride to iron(III) chloride. I recently wrote a new page called vanadium(V) oxide, yet "next door" to that we have another page called titanium dioxide. If we write a style guide, we will have to hammer out exactly how we (as the chemistry community on Wikipedia) believe things should be named- it's not cut & dried. We need to make sure that the rules we propose are as clear as possible, to ensure that we don't have more incidents like the acetone move. Walkerma 22:05, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
I have recently started to upload all new images of chemical structures to the Wikimedia Commons. This way it is possible to use the structures in all different wikipedia projects. I upload high resolution, black/white PNG images. These are of surprisingly small file size (the ethylene glycol image to the right has a size of only 3,198 byte at a resolution of 1372 x 469 pixels). Because of the high resolution they can be rescaled dynamically to any size on wikipedia. Additionally, they can be used for printing and projection without pixel artifacts.
Linking is exactly the same as if the images were upladed to en.wikipedia:
The category [[Category:Chemical structures]] is a Wikimedia Commons category for all chemical structures there.
This is the procedure I currently use for my images:
Wikimedia Commons summary template:
Cacycle 15:11, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think we need to have some means of tracking our progress towards the goals. The Wikipedia:WikiProject_Chemicals/Organization work-list page is clearly the centre of this, but at present we can only see a blue or red link, unless comments have been added. We need to be able to tell whether something is a short stub, a fairly complete article that needs a little work, or something that is "complete". To that end I have put up a system for article assessment system at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Chemicals/Assessment, and the letters range from F (should be deleted) through E (short stub) to A (Done!).
A necessary part of this system would be people to actually perform the assessments. I propose that each one of the sections of our detailed progress on goal lists should have a coordinator who is responsible for that list. They would perform a regular (is monthly too often? Every three months?) check on each one of the pages in their list, and give a quick assessment. For example "Joe" might go through the inorganics list, while Fred does the polymers. If it gets too much, maybe two people can share the responsibility, doing the assessment every other time. The letter could be entered in just after the Wikilink. Once every entry has an A next to it we can say that the goal has been reached. I will give my assessments for the inorganics section (soon) so that people can get a sense of what I mean. I will not assess articles written mainly by me.
One natural cause for concern is if (say) I write an article that I think is great and at the "A" level, then the coordinator gives it a "B" and my feelings are hurt. Are we all grown up enough to handle this?! As explained on the Assessment page it needs to be understood that everyone will have a different view of what is the perfect article, and that's why I think we need a single coordinator for each list. Presumably if anyone does get offended, the coordinator can either perform an edit or be able to say, "We need to have a section on how it is prepared, and perhaps one or two more references." Speaking personally, I have a great deal of respect for the regular contributors to this project.
I think one strict rule should be, however, that the first version of an article should always be independently assessed- if written by the coordinator then it should initially be assessed by someone else. Thereafter the coordinator can assess the progress of that page.
Is this getting way too "overorganised" for a Wikipedia group? The problem is (IMHO) that we have to be able to monitor our progress, and at present it's hard to tell whether our 50 reagent articles include 45 stubs and 5 good articles, or 45 good articles and 5 that need a bit of work. There is also no one person who is systematically assessing them at regular intervals. I think section coordinators are probably a good idea- they can take the lead on things like template changes, goal changes, nominations for featured article, etc.
If people like this idea then I will probably try recruiting coordinators by leaving messages on personal talk pages. Please give comments on this idea after you have looked at the guidelines. Walkerma 22:59, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I took the liberty of assigning some grades to the list of inorganics, so you can see how it would work. It took me one minute per entry to assess the page and tag the entry. I didn't assess pages that I had a lot to do with. Walkerma 21:08, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The three-way split of this important list is almost complete, and I have set a date of May 31st for the end of this page as a list. After that, users will be advised to visit one of the three parts of the list, namely List of inorganic compounds, List of organic compounds, or List of biomolecules. I added a note at the top of the page. At this point the only work left to do is to pull out any biomolecules from the organics list that don't belong there, and to make sure that the biomolecules list is as complete as it should be. So far I have done this up to end of the letter C. Walkerma 18:22, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think it was a good idea for
Physchim62 to separate out the Biochemicals from the Other (miscellaneous) Compounds List on the
Wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals/Organization page.
H Padleckas 02:57, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Absolutely! Thanks, PC. Walkerma 18:19, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yep, mee2. I also edited the target in the formal project wikipage. Wim van Dorst 21:01, 2005 Jun 1 (UTC).
Here is a question for all organic chemists; and biochemist, and chemists and chemical engineers in general and others interested in organic chemistry:
Shown below are two pictures of the structure of m-chloroperoxybenzoic acid, a chemical reagent sometimes used in organic reactions.
Should we standardize the way 6-carbon or 6-atom benzene rings are shown in aromatic compound chemical structures? Should we show them with alternating double and single bonds as shown on the left or with a circle inside the hexagon as shown on the right? Should we just accept both ways as ok, to be decided by whoever creates the picture? Some books show it one way; other books show it the other way.
H Padleckas
11:52, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
I agree with all above comments, thereby invalidating my application to join the Association of Pedantic Wikipedians. IMME Kekulé structures are almost universal in continental Europe, and predominant in UK universities (UK schools insist on the ring form); however, both forms are defendable (and used in journals), and it would be impossible to police any style-preference.
I would also like to propose a secondary projet goal: to produce a style guide for chemicals articles, if only so that we don't have to go wading through Talkpages to remind ourselves what we decided! Current Wikipedia style advice is given at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (chemistry). Physchim62 22:23, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
In User talk:Walkerma/Archive2, it was mentioned that the article Nuclear Magnetic Resonance concentrated on the physical phenomenon and left much to be desired on the analytical applications aspect of NMR Spectroscopy. It was also mentioned that a separate NMR Spectroscopy article should be written up covering these analytical applications using an NMR instrument. As of May 19, 2005, such a separate article has been written by User:Lee-Jon; see NMR Spectroscopy. Also, as of today, I have just written an article discussing the NMR standard tetramethylsilane, often called TMS. H Padleckas 08:51, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Is it worth merging all those haloalkane articles? A number of them, although not very large, have enough unique material to be stand alone articles, instead of just stubs. I mentioned a counterproposal in Talk:Haloalkane, for what it's worth. H Padleckas 10:26, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Now that the list of compounds has been split in three structurally well-defined lists, I propose that we define another activity for our target provide navigational aids to chemicals in wikipedia, as defined in wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals#Goals, viz., the structurally setting up of indexes to the lists, e.g., inorganic compounds by element (already going strong), organic compounds by carbon chainlength and biomolecules by molecular weight. Can we define a target shortlist, SMARTly? How do you all feel about this? Wim van Dorst 23:05, 2005 Jun 1 (UTC).
Having said that, I don't think we should forget that we agreed with K's suggestions for writing a "Chemistry Style Guide." That was a great idea too, let's include it in our goals- but after a short break, perhaps? Walkerma 05:14, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think it's probably good to get this page looking more formal. Henry pointed out the Science Wikiproject standard on this, which should be borne in mind. Names are our biggest issue, but not the only one- I think a more general style guide is needed, because of issues of:
I think that simply referring vaguely to published style guides is not the answer, namely:
As I mentioned above, I want to focus my energies in the next couple of weeks on adding content, but I am willing to participate in writing such a style guide if others think it's worthwhile. Walkerma 21:44, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Strong agree. I will try to put a starter document together so that we can fill in the gaps. Physchim62 22:23, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Strong agree. Well put Walkerma. You said it better than I ever could have. ~K 02:59, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Strong agree.
‣ᓛᖁ
ᑐ 09:44, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Strong bullocks (just kidding, Martin). Of course I agree with your proposal. And I see a sneak preview on PC's pages, which is growing in an excellent way. Why not putting the text directly in the wikipedia:Naming conventions (chemistry) article, PC? Then we can have a discussion about the set up as well as the content. (PS. Your Title paragraph is spot on!). Wim van Dorst 11:57, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC).
Other moves will depend on how far I get with it! Physchim62 12:13, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Proposal copied from Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Criteria
{{ Inorganic-compound-stub}} and {{ organic-compound-stub}} are now up and running: 160 articles in the former and 360 in the latter... Physchim62 20:29, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Our current criteria for A-Class articles are:
Four articles currently reach this standard: Iron(III) chloride, Phosphorus tribromide, Toluene and Zinc chloride.
In order to reconcile our assessment guidelines with the assessment practices of the different project participants (it wasn't just me who did the assessments), I propose the following criteria:
Comments? Physchim62 22:20, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Albeit that I profess to be very much in favour of practicality, I d on't think we should downgrade our duly balanced A-Class before we have even started. Therefore I remain strongly supporting Martin's original 'tough' definition, boiling down to very realistic and imho important requirements:
As all of these are of course still subjective requirements, I also strongly support PC's proposal for a peer-review page for A-Class articles. Wim van Dorst 08:47, 2005 Jun 6 (UTC).
I am in the process of writing a new article called which I plan to call Phosphoric acids and Phosphates. It is currently on the following Temp page: User:H Padleckas/Temp (Phosphoric acids and Phosphates), because I have not created the main illustration yet. A section at the bottom of this temp article: User:H Padleckas/Temp (Phosphoric acids and Phosphates)#Phosphate and Phosphite Esters covers "Phosphate and Phosphite Esters" until a separate article on the subject can be developed. Two images of general chemical structures have been included in this section, one of a phosphate triester and one of a phosphite triester.
If anybody has any philosophical comments on this endeavor, let me know. H Padleckas 16:32, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Someone on IRC reported the tables at Wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals/Organization being broken since the upgrade. I found that the problem was caused by having multiple "colspan" attributes on the table cells -- there's one in template:chembox header and another one explicitly set. On the older version of the software, the 'HTML tidy' postprocessing removed the first one (from the template) and kept the second one, while the new HTML fixup code in MediaWiki 1.5 kept the first one instead, causing the table to be formatted rather differently.
I've changed MediaWiki's fixup code to behave the same way as tidy, keeping the last instead of the first when there are more than one, and the tables appear to be rendering as intended again. -- Brion June 29, 2005 21:56 (UTC)
The starter document is now at Wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals/Style guidelines, and open for comment and improvement. Peer review is particularly requested for the Title section, in view of replacing the current Wikipedia:Naming conventions (chemistry). Physchim62 20:08, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I keep meaning to add a paragraph into the title section to deal with IUPAC non-recommended names which we insist on using in Wikipedia. A few examples (please feel free to find more):
My reading of the Red book (the 2004 draft doesn't change much in this area) is that stoichiometric nomenclature is always recommended, but that Stock nomenclature is tolerated for ionic compounds with integral oxidation states. Obviously, WikiPractice is that we use Stock nomenclature for most transition metal compounds, except when there is a better alternative (See the general rule).
I vote disagree to allowing Aldrich to determine our naming policy, if only because of #UnspecifiedDeity knows how many minutes of my time I have wasted explaining to PhD students the (non)logic of their system, as in "Don't worry, after six months you'll remember that methanol is listed under methanol but ethanol is listed under ethyl alcohol". The best internationally-accepted name can only be determined by reference to a number of sources, if then. Physchim62 19:30, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Just mentioning that I have posted some new pictures on Commons- best to start here. The compounds are Al & Ca sulfates, SbF3, Sb2O3, As2O3, Bi2O3, Na3PO4, KNO3, KMnO4, CaF2, Ca(OH)2, Na2S2O3, silicic acid, boric acid, CAN, PdCl2, CsCl, ZnO. I also redid pictures of KCl & LiCl (I'm getting better at taking then now), and uploaded a few older ones to Commons too. I will probably be adding a few more new ones this coming week too. I will add pictures to the pages where we have them as time allows this week, but if you are planning on working on any of the above you should take note. Also, if you have any requests for pictures, please let me know- this week is about the best week for it for the light- though be aware that it is extremely humid here, and my attempt at a new FeCl3 picture saw the sample turning liquid before my eyes! Walkerma 18:22, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I will try to get those you mention- we have both HF and CO out in use at the moment. No RhCl3 or IrCl3 or related Ph3P complexes, I'm afraid. We have tiny amounts of Rh2(OAc)4, Rh2O3, and Pd(OAc)2, and PtCl4 solution, I will snap these when I can, when the weather abates. Walkerma 23:29, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Actually poisons are a problem, at least till August- I got a picture of As2O3 while I had the chance. Cyanides can't be handled without a special protocol, and guess who should be writing the protocol instead of writing Wikipedia articles! I want to use NaCN in my research next year, so I will be doing that. Walkerma 15:32, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I will try to do this when I get the chance- probably some in early July. I tried taking a picture of CrO3 recently but couldn't get the top off the bottle! Such poisons are now locked away for a while, but I'll do my best! We have all 4 combos of salts (Na/K, chromate/dichromate). There is a picture of CrCl3 hydrate already at chromium(III) chloride- were you wanting a better picture? Walkerma 07:45, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Following PCs proposal, I have created the wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals/List of A-Class articles, and filled it with the current thirty, including the open remarks. Wim van Dorst 23:42, 2005 Jun 16 (UTC).
I have been working on the A-Class articles, and upgraded several with new chemboxes and additional data for them (can't get the speed of PC, I'm sorry to say ;-). Now I have completely revisited the list of A-Class articles, and found (in my humble opinion) seven full blown A-Class articles and some twenty with smaller and bigger issues to solve. I would appreciate others to add to the new remarks and/or solve the issues. Of course I keep working on them too. Would it be fitting to put a date on the upgrading to real A-Class work ('if not done by ..., these articles will be B-Classified')? Wim van Dorst July 5, 2005 21:05 (UTC).
I added tables to all the amino acid pages. I put a strike through all the NO TABLE notices on the chemicals table. I'm not sure if this is proper practice, i'm sorry if its not. The tables do need proper IUPAC names put into them though. Does any one who is good at nomenclature want to do this? I have done a few but there are some that I don't know how to name. Thanks. Borb 14:23, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
No problems, Borb. Personally I prefer the short form tables on these articles for the moment, until we get round to writing the content that they need: just look at the corresponding German articles, which have long form tables with no more text content than we have... If no-one else gets round to filling them out before the end of the month, I will work on them when I get to the UK (otherwise, I can always do the French versions!). Don't forget to delete text content which is simply repeating content in the tables (ie, if there is no additional comment), and to delete table line which are inappropriate (eg, boiling points when the compound decomposes before melting). ¡Hasta Luego! Physchim62 4 July 2005 07:49 (UTC)
Hi guys, I designed an NFPA diamond (fire diamond) that can be used on the chemical pages. It's actually made up of three images, to make it a little easier for me, anyway. Here's how to use it:
So, [[Image:nfpa_h4.png]][[Image:nfpa_f4_w.png]][[Image:nfpa_r4.png]] gives you:
Should we add it to the standard data table for the chemicals? Do you see any changes I should make? They really should be templates to be a little easier to put on the pages...does anyone want to create 100+ templates? ;-) Also,
Walkerma said they should be a little smaller...I'll try to work on that a little later today. I put some of these on a few pages already...check
sodium chloride,
acetone,
potassium chlorate,
hydrochloric acid, and
hydrofluoric acid. Let me know what you guys think.
Addaone June 29, 2005 14:31 (UTC)
So are we going to add the NFPA diamonds to the infobox template, or just add them afterwards when we have the information? ~K 30 June 2005 15:10 (UTC)
There isn't much doubt, is there? So I put it in the formal chembox table. Note that I did not link it to the programming explanation but to the information about what the numbers mean. Wim van Dorst July 1, 2005 20:28 (UTC).
For reference the full range: (there is a hint here until Addaone gets to it). Wim van Dorst July 1, 2005 20:28 (UTC).
For everyones information, I've found a website that lists about a billion NFPA ratings on various chemicals. I put it on the NFPA_704 page, but I wanted to mention it here so it can get used. ~K 7 July 2005 04:07 (UTC)
text moved to pertaining section on wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals/List of A-Class articles#Protein
This is an extensive though mostly unlinked listing that appeared out of the blue. I contacted the author already. It covers inorganics and organics, with a heavy emphasis on what I presume are semiconductor materials. The listing seems rather odd in what is put in and what is left out; the most important gold compound, gold(III) chloride is absent, yet obscure things like triethylphosphine gold(I) chloride are included. This may reflect the interests of the author, perhaps. Also some hydrates are listed as separate from the anhydrous compounds, although I cannot foresee the day when we have a separate page both aluminium bromide and aluminium bromide hexahydrate. Nevertheless someone has done a lot of work and the listing may be useful to the project. Walkerma 7 July 2005 16:58 (UTC)
The formulae in the list have been ordered according to these rules:
Anyone who wants to is invited to edit the dictionary, adding new compound formulas, removing formulas, adding alternative names for a given formula, adding hyperlinks from the name of a compound to its article, &c. just as long as the rules (or at least the most important ones, such as the first ten) are followed. Anyway, in the future, if I get around to it, I might browse Wikipedia articles about individual chemical compounds and categories of families of compounds to see about adding more entries to the list, with their names hyperlinked to their articles, so as to increase the list's usefulness. — AugPi 23:30, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for all of your hard work, I hope this will become an indispensible part of the chemistry pages on Wikipedia. Walkerma 03:45, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
UPDATE: I have copied the rules (without questions) onto the talk page, and added a sentence on the article page that links to this. However, I notice that the page is already 60 kB long, we're supposed to keep things below 30, but it's only going to get bigger. Should this be split into organics and inorganics? Walkerma 06:15, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Does someone want to write a quick stub to replace this ****? Physchim62 09:56, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
I happened across this article, Aliphatic compound, and it seemed like it could use some expansion, although, not being a chemist, I don't know exactly what. It's not listed on your worklist, so I thought I'd mention it here in case you'd like to take it in hand. Thanks for all your good work on Wikipedia! JesseW 08:01, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I have archived all the older discussions on this page, as a nice summer clean-out. This leaves only the active things to work on during the rest of the summer, notably all the things on the List of A-Class articles and of course the worklist of the Chemicals WikiProject. I wish everybody (including myself ;-) success with it. Wim van Dorst 21:11, 30 July 2005 (UTC).
Sodium_hypochlorite -- I cannot figure if the article has been vandalized to a POV or just hasn't been expanded. Please help.
I have uploaded collections of gas densities, viscosities and solubility products which people might find useful in filling out chemboxes. Enjoy! Physchim62 00:26, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
And shall we delete RNA and Peptide from the worklist, just as we did Protein and DNA. Wim van Dorst 22:04, 3 September 2005 (UTC).
On April 14, Martin added squalene oxide to our worklist. Is this intentional, or did you mean squalene. Wim van Dorst 22:04, 3 September 2005 (UTC).
In the worklist the building block malonic ester is mentioned. Which ester would that be? PC already suggests dimethyl malonate, although diethyl malonate (DEM) is an alternative. Or would perhaps malonic acid be a better alternative instead? (I'm going for the unclassifieds, if anyone had noticed). Wim van Dorst 22:35, 12 September 2005 (UTC).
While working on reducing the number of Unclassifieds (mostly red links like this one) in the worklist, I took the liberty of pruning about nine Unclassifieds from the Inorganics section on the worklist. All were there as a second choice to elements where there was already a classified (Stub/Start or better) alternative. The removed entries have actually only been moved to below the Inorganics table, and can be put back when inadvertently I have removed the important compound in favour of a minor compound. It was all about the obscurer elements, so I hope this was ok. Please feel free to correct if necessary, of course. Wim van Dorst 19:23, 15 September 2005 (UTC).
I propose that we omit this from the building blocks list, just because it's not an isolable compound on Earth at room temperature. Thus I think you would be unable to get MP, BP, density etc, and it is not used on Earth as a building block in an organic synthesis (though acetaldehyde, the tautomer, is a building block). Walkerma 20:22, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Hmm.... Well, head on over and give your two bits, if you want. ~K 18:49, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
OK, we've all been putting it off, but if benzene is not going to be an FA just yet, should we work on one? If it is to be a compound I think it should definitely be an organic compound, to complement the inorganic FA in the spring. An alternative could be a reaction or process, or perhaps a concept, but the compounds have been generally more peer reviewed because of this project. It also needs to be something the general person will have heard of or would be interested in (though please can we avoid illicit drugs!?). Benzene would certainly be a possibility, with some work it could be good. Do other people have suggestions Walkerma 04:57, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm no good at chemistry, but I know that Sodium hydroxide needs you guys' attention. There's no picture, the hard chemical data is mediocre, and a few other things are bad, too, see the talk page. Thanks! HereToHelp 20:49, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I am sorry if I am spoiling anything but I would like to be somewhat involved in this wikiproject. Is that possible, as chemistry is my favourite subject? Xeno Neon
For information on chemicals, go to
http://www.chemicalland21.com and click on one of the colored bars in the left frame
(
Industrial chemicals,
Life science products, etc). Note: I have no connection to this site. I just discovered it 30 minutes ago, and it's been helpful.
If anyone has any other useful resources, please add them. Twilight Realm 23:06, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
There should be a section at the bottom (or top) for people to add suggestions of chemicals to work on. Twilight Realm 03:28, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi all, with the last worklist compound ethyl bromoacetate now having an nice stub article (I even unhumbly classified it as Chem Start), we have now reached the stage that we can only go up. There are no unclassified to drop off any more (e.g., zirconium(IV) chloride), nor are there obvious articles to be weeded from the list as they might be vague as a single compound (e.g., Protein and DNA). So in a week or so when we make up the next statistics table, the total number (380 if I counted right) is consisting of only real articles! Wim van Dorst 22:32, 23 September 2005 (UTC).
I came across de:Alkane as a (deservedly) featured article in the German Wikipedia, and I'm in the process of translating it into English for here. Other German featured articles of interest to us are Ethylene, Benzene, Toluene and Anthocyanin, as well as Arsenic and Barium among the elements. Anyone else interested in a bit of translation work? Physchim62 12:47, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
While attacking the Chem Stubs in the list, I found those that should in my humble opinion be Chem Start and simultaneously I found Chem Starts that should be Chem Stub. The fine line between the two should be drawn a little clearer, therefore I propose the following rewording of the wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals/Assessment
Grade | Description | Summary |
Stub | The article is a very short article or a stub that will need a lot of work to bring it to A-Class level. It may lack most or all significant sections. | limited text, no chembox, no refs |
Start | The article is short, but has some good sections, such as a chembox data table description of uses, production and/or chemical and physical properties. It may lack several signicant sections. | some text+chembox, limited in the sections |
I could think of a rewording in this line for B-Class as well, but I'm not working on those yet. The rephrasing for Stub and Start would make it possible to re-categorize all Stubs and Starts into proper work targets (viz., no Stubs and at least Starts). Wim van Dorst 12:54, 23 October 2005 (UTC).
Now that I have a liitle bit of time to breathe, I am in the process of implementing a chemical safety project that Eequor and I discussed over the summer. Each code for the R- and S-phrases will correspond to a template (I've done most of the R-phrases so far, hope to finish this weekend): for example, R45 corresponds to Template:R45, and when you type {{R45}} you see {{R45}} on the page. Now hold the cursor over the link...
The templates use the {{ abbr}} template: for the example above, the code is {{subst:abbr|May cause cancer|R45}}.
The official R- and S-phrases for any compound may be found on the site of the European Chemicals Bureau:
Feel free to use these templates liberally, in the interests of public information! Physchim62 06:44, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi all, acetic acid has been up for a month on Peer Review (read archived text here), during which it saw numerous improvements even after it had been classified already as Chem A-Class. The current article is to me now excellent enough to be proposed for FAC. Shall we move on? Wim van Dorst 14:55, 24 October 2005 (UTC).
It is up on WP:FAC now!!! Wim van Dorst 23:11, 3 November 2005 (UTC).
Congratulations to all who worked on Acetic acid, which has now become a Featured Article in Wikipedia. H Padleckas 08:43, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I've added a couple of templates we might use to keep track of article progress. These are {{
inorganic-compound-start}} and {{
organic-compound-start}}:
{{inorganic-compound-start}}
{{organic-compound-start}}
Each of these has a category for its articles,
Category:Incomplete inorganic compound articles and
Category:Incomplete organic compound articles. The idea is to list all the {{
chem start}} articles, including those not on the worklist. How does this sound?
‣ᓛᖁ
ᑐ
18:58, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Although this has been discussed before, Henry proposed an interesting proposition about how to handle several isomers of one compound. Together with our own style guides, I would like to word it as follows:
If we can agree to this, perhaps this should be part of the styleguide? Wim van Dorst 08:37, 29 October 2005 (UTC).
All isomers/compounds are notable to some extent: Single compound pages. No single isomer of note: One page for all. One single isomer of note, other isomers not notable: Single compound page and isomers page, unless this is not deemed worthwhile, in which case one combined page. Large no. of related compounds, some of which are related: Family page + single compound pages. Walkerma 14:13, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Also see List of multi-compound articles below at the end of #Groups of chemical compounds: thiophenols, toluidines. H Padleckas 11:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
For the moment, there is no guidance on creating articles about acids and their conjugate anions. The following proposal is current practice, I will add it to the guidelines if there is support among editors:
Again, comments please. Physchim62 21:23, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
While we're talking about these sorts of issues, it seems to me that we have a big need for pages that cover the chemistry of a metal in its compounds. Non-metals get the equivalent- we have oxygen and oxide, chlorine and chloride, so why not iron and iron compounds (or compounds of iron or chemistry of iron)? The element page clearly focusses on the metal itself, with compounds as a simple add-on. The individual compound pages are too narrow a focus to cover the whole chemistry. And more obscure compounds that perhaps one interesting aspect either get a silly stub, a random mention on another (random) page such as the chloride (e.g., you can make this interesting complex from MCl3), or you get nothing. It would give a broader view, reviewing all of the compounds e.g. from Fe(CO)5 to FeSO4 to haemoglobin, all in one article. I'd held off even mentioning this idea knowing that we already have a mountain of work to do- but as we plan the future direction of substance articles I thought it was worth mentioning. Comments anyone? Walkerma 02:25, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
This last summer
WikiProject Polymers was initiated in Wikipedia. During the last couple of months, more participants have signed up and this WikiProject is starting to become more active. For example,
H Padleckas has signed up to participate.
On the
WikiProject Chemicals/Organization page, there is a
list of Polymers. I would like to suggest moving this list over to WikiProject Polymers. Being active Wikipedia participants, you can still work on these polymer articles over there too and sign up like I did. Does this seem OK to you guys?
H Padleckas
06:35, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm currently working through the chemboxes on inorganics articles, creating data pages and listing MSDSs etc. It struck me that some articles which have been assessed as starts are really only stubs, so I went through the entire list of inorganic starts. The articles to which I refer are:
Can someone else have a look over them and regrade if necessary. Physchim62 (talk· RfA) 12:38, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for taking a look at them! I'm not sure that it's really grade inflation that's the problem here, more the fact that our grade criteria have beome clearer over the months. You can take it two ways:
Both of these statements are true, needless to say! Physchim62 (talk· RfA) 06:16, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi - you use a template on your organisation page catted {{ Chem Stub}}, designed to add the word "stub" to the tables you have there. There is a discussion underway at WP:SFD#.7B.7BStub-Class.7D.7D_.28no_category.29 which directly affects this template, and which we would value your input on. In summary:
Your opinions are welcomed! Grutness... wha? 03:42, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
It is merely a table aid to indicate that an article is Stub, similar to {{ Chem Start}}, {{ Chem B-Class}} and {{ Chem A-Class}}. The offending category link has been removed now, and there is not controversial issue anymore. Thanks for pointing out that something needed to be fixed. Wim van Dorst 12:57, 5 November 2005 (UTC).
I have noticed that sometimes the elements in chemical formulas are linked to the element articles. I think this looks confusing because of the underlined characters and it is unnecessary as long as there is a link to chemical formula nearby. The formula is usually only interesting for people which already know how to read the formula, all others should read the article on chemical formulas where the common elements are explained. The only exception could be non-common elements (not C, H, N, O, and S). What do you think. Cacycle 22:46, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
According to our own guidelines, we ought to use the iupac name for the wikipages. But while working on ethylene dichloride (EDC), I encountered a whole group of similarly named C2-compounds, viz. ethylene (not ethene), ethylene dichloride (not 1,2-dichloroethane), a new ethylidene dichloride (not 1,1-dichloroethane), etc. Outside of the organic chemistry classes, no one would normally say 1,2-dichloroethane to EDC, so the whole article (well, merely Chem Start quality) is written using the colloquial name, or even the abbreviation. Wikipedia guideline (can't find a ref just now) says to use the name as will be normally used to designate a certain subject for the wikipage title. In the chemistry guideline it says systematic name. Now what? POLL: Ethylene dichloride (and equivalents) or 1,2-dichloroethane? Wim van Dorst 08:55, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
A rule of thumb I've used in the past when starting new articles is that if a traditional name wins the Google poll by a significant margin, then use it; otherwise go with IUPAC. Hence ethylene over ethene. Now, looking at other C2 compounds, Google says:
Following these recommendations, I have moved both ethylidene dichloride and ethylene dichloride to the correct IUPAC names of 1,1-dichloroethane and 1,2-dichloroethane. Thanks for the clear opinions to make this action obvious. PS. I prefer ethene over ethylene. Wim van Dorst 21:08, 10 November 2005 (UTC).
Sorry to be a Johnny-come-lately, but shouldn't those names be 1,2-Dichloroethane and 1,1-Dichloroethane, as described in our naming guidelines? Walkerma 22:13, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
I think its counter-intuitive to NOT include the capital in the name! Actually it came out of the lists of compounds, where it was apparent that both forms were used, and we had things like 1,2-dichloroethane (no capital if in mid-sentence!) listed under "1" rather than under "D". Cacycle proposed the idea for capitalisation, and I supported it, it emphasises the start of the word. This is on the grounds that when naming a compound like Chloroethane we capitalise the start of the word in Wikipedia article names, just like in any chemical catalogue. Since all prefixes in chemical names "don't count" (look in any catalogue, even our stockroom list is done this way) when alphabetising, we go to the start of the word part of the name. To do otherwise would go against what chemists are used to. BTW, Wim, thanks for dealing with the objections on the acetic acid FAC page, I was truly impressed by your diligence! Walkerma 22:52, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
I would have a tendency to go with the IUPAC names for 1,2-dichloroethane and 1,1-dichloroethane and even for ethene(changed my mind for consistency with propylene and butylene articles) with redirects from all commonly-used "common names". I remember when I wrote the
Benzenediols article, I made a ton of Redirects. However, I agree that the general public and professionals use "ethylene" a lot more than "ethene", so I would understand making
Ethylene the main article. However at this point, I'm going to leave in up to you guys. I once wrote the article
Ethanoyl chloride (based on the IUPAC name "ethanoic acid") and watched it changed to
Acetyl chloride. Maybe there's an even more official IUPAC name for ethanoyl chloride. I do understand that for some compounds, the IUPAC names are horribly unwieldly and are practically never used, except as a note under a more common name. For these, of course, the commonly used names ought to be used for articles (especially including some polymers).
H Padleckas 08:31, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
H Padleckas
19:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Yet another complication with IUPAC naming is that many names can be written as 1-propanol or propan-1-ol, 2-propanol or propan-2-ol, 1,3-butadiene or buta-1,3-diene, 1-butene or but-1-ene. AOL searches of the pairs including 1-propanol, 2-propanol, and 1,3-butadiene have shown me that the number prefixes at the beginning of the name generate far more hits than names with the numbers in the middle, by ratios ranging 7 - 18 to 1. H Padleckas 12:14, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
user:H_Padleckas just added thiophenols to the worklist, and while looking at that change I noticed that there is also toluidines in there. Now, both articles are not about a specific chemical compound but more indicate a class of chemicals. I propose to have them replace in the list by the most important compounds out of the group, e.g., Thiophenol (currently redirected back to thiophenols) and p-Toluidine (currently redirected back to toluidines). Same as 1,3,5-Triazine for the triazines. Wim van Dorst 20:51, 11 November 2005 (UTC).
Here's the list of group-of-compound articles (I alluded to previously above) which I've worked on and off for the past week or so:
Status of some isomer articles and suggestions?? Any suggestions on the individual compound/group articles can be placed right after it.
My recommendation: keep it this way. I actually would like to eventually write more on xylenes; there is more to say about them.(HP)
My recommendation: keep it this way.(HP)
At this time, I don't know what to do about these. (HP)
My recommendation: I favor having one 3-isomer article, but updating the Table eventually. (HP)
My recommendation: Give n-butane and isobutane equal status and make a double Table which includes n-butane and isobutane. Move to article to Butane isomers with redirects coming from all possibilities. Alternatively, there could be two separate rather equal articles, one on each isomer. (HP)
My recommendation: I favor an article called Butadiene where there is some elementary introductory discussion of both isomers, but mentioning that 1,3-butadiene is far more important industrially and that the rest of the article will effective cover and have a Table for only the 1,3-isomer. Please see the comment to that effect in Talk:1,3-Butadiene. (HP)
My recommendation: Merge the 2 articles into Propanol isomers with a double Table, although it's ok to keep them separate. (HP)
My recommendation: keep it this way and add a quadruple Table. Most of the discussion on each isomer is common to the others anyway. Alternatively, the article name can be changed to Butylene isomers. The reason I didn't call it Butene isomers is because isobutylene would be methylpropene in IUPAC.
My recommendation: keep it this way and add a quadruple Table. Most of the discussion on each isomer is common to the others anyway. (HP)
My recommendation: keep it this way. (HP)
My recommendation: maybe we can keep things the way they are. (HP)
My recommendation: I am now thinking I should merge the DEA and TEA articles into Ethanolamine, but have the article effectively cover only MEA in any detail and have a Table for only MEA, but mention DEA and TEA and, near the end of the article, include their structure pics.
Have I left any out? Judging from certain comments made since I started working in this list, I'm afraid I suspect some of my recommendations may get a chilly reception. :-/
In many of the cases of related isomers, much of the discussion is very similar and it would be redundant to have the same similar discussions in 2 or 3 separate articles, but it can be done. Splitting up some of these multi-compound articles may result in short, stubby, rather repetitive, single articles. Separate single Tables of Properties can be made for each isomer, to be put in separate articles. A benefit of having a double or triple Table is that the properties of the isomers (compounds) can be compared side by side. However in this day and age, printouts of separate pages can be made and compared side by side that way. Some 2 or 3 compound articles may eventually be split up as Wikipedia expands.
Also in many cases, there may be a "parent" compound which has a certain skeleton structure, often a ring or group of rings, whose name serves as the name for a group or class of compounds which have that same skeleton structure but with substitutions on it. I think this should be explained in Wikipedia whenever there is an article on a compound which has an important such group of compounds named after it, such as purines, pyrimidines, thiophenols, dibenzofurans, etc. All three triazine isomers are in this "category." H Padleckas 10:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
The vote is open after a recent page move. Note that Isobutane exists as a substub. Physchim62 (talk) 12:28, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
As an active mover, I'm also a pliant mover, readily to bow before people who really know the IUPAC naming conventions. It is back. Wim van Dorst 22:07, 12 November 2005 (UTC).
There are two systems of nomenclature for organic compounds (and likely inorganics as well):
In addition to these, there are sometimes trivial names.
I believe the naming for C4H10 is as follows:
The common naming system is often used more than the IUPAC naming system.
The two compounds have a lot in common, and probably of roughly equal importance. Previously, a single article covered both of them, with the n-butane being the main compound having its own Table and isobutane being its sidekick without its own Table. Some of the discussion for the two compounds would be very similar if each compound had its own separate article. If it was all up to me, I would have one article giving both compounds about equal importance and have a double Table covering both compounds. I have created a couple of triple Tables of Properties already for cases of closely related isomers, for example: Xylene and Cresol. I was planning to create more such Tables; for example, I am working on a triple Table for the three isomers of Benzenediol offline. Is it the WikiProject Chemical's intention to have separate articles for every chemical compound ? H Padleckas 07:47, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
On a related note, where should we draw the line for alkane articles? At present, we have articles for all straight-chain alkanes up to
hexatriacontane (C36H74), which seems to me to be overkill! My proposal is to merge all articles from
nonane to
hexatriacontane into a
higher alkanes article, while keeping a seperate article for
tetradecane
hexadecane (because of its role as the basis for
cetane numbers). I am currently working on the hexanes, so watch this space!
Physchim62
(talk)
09:05, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
I've started Wikipedia: WikiProject Chemicals/Data as a repository of useful web sites for finding physical properties & other info in composing chemical compound articles. Shimmin 17:55, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
The information on methane and its presentation is not up to the standard of other articles in Wikipedia.
Much of it is simply unintelligible (perhaps written by people who speak English as a second language?). There are many statements that are, at best, misleading, and at worst complete nonsense, eg: "Methane acts on organic rich shales and produces a minor contribution (1-3%) to form petroleum with true biomarkers as hopanoids and others insaturated hydrocarbons (n-alkenes). Methane interacts with peats, forming coal and bearing mercury, nickel, arsenic,cadmium, selenium, vanadium, uranium and other toxic metals."
Someone with a good knowledge of organic geochemistry AND the English language please should rewrite the entire entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.210.13 ( talk • contribs)
Changes in worklist status between 2005-06-02 and 2005-09-02, all articles grouped | |||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Grade |
From A-Class | From B-Class | From Start | From Stub | From unclassified |
New to list | |
To | A-Class | X | 2 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 2 |
To | B-Class | 6 | X | 1 | 2 | 0 | 5 |
To | Start | 0 | 0 | X | 2 | 7 | 6 |
To | Stub | 1 | 0 | 0 | X | 14 | 15 |
To | Unclassified | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | X | 5 |
To | Deleted from list | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 5 | X |
Now that we've worked hard and acetic acid is a featured article, it will be on the main page on December 1st, 2005. I don't know exactly what this will mean for the acetic acid page itself, but I can guess that there will be a LARGE amount of editting to the article that day. I'm guessing that some of the edits will be useful, some will be useless, but most will be vandals. I just want to ask people to keep an eye out for vandalism and useless edits. ~K 08:50, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
It was moved to December 2nd, 2005. I can wait. ~K 15:55, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I just wanted to say congratulations on getting acetic acid featured. It's not easy to write featured-quality articles on technical subjects. And I'd like to see more science-related featured articles. Incidentally, we borrowed your organization scheme for WP:MED—good idea! — Knowledge Seeker দ 07:21, 3 December 2005 (UTC)