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I see that there is a viewpoint, held by some experienced editors, that the Articles for Creation process is broken, perhaps irreparably broken, and should be merged with New Page Patrol. In particular, some editors think that reviewers (or most reviewers) hold incoming articles to too high a standard. I do not agree with the general conclusion that AFC is broken and should be scrapped, but I see that, because this view is widely held, it is likely that AFC will be scrapped and merged into NPP. So I have a few comments and questions on what should be done.
First, some editors state that new editors think that AFC is mandatory for new articles, that new articles can only be submitted via the AFC review process, and not submitted directly into article space. I don’t know if some new editors do think (incorrectly) that AFC is the only way to submit new articles. I do know that some new editors use AFC after their initial submissions have been speedy-deleted. Those new editors obviously did know that they could submit directly into article space. However, if some new editors do think that AFC is mandatory for new articles, reasonable steps should be taken to clarify such a misunderstanding. New editors should be aware that they can submit directly into article space. At the same time, they should be aware that submission into article space risks any of the three deletion processes. (There will always be misunderstandings with anything as large and visible as Wikipedia. There is also a widespread belief that Wikipedia is a vehicle to publicize one’s company. There is also a widespread belief that Wikipedia is a social medium. We have done our best to address those myths. We can’t eliminate all misimpressions, and should focus on addressing those that have a negative impact on the present and future of the encyclopedia.)
Second, since having an article deleted is at least as painful as having an article declined, there should continue to be a process whereby new editors (or even experienced editors) should be able to request review before exposing their work to deletion (by any of the three deletion processes). One obvious solution would simply be to request review, from draft space or user space, at the Teahouse or some similar page. However, the number of articles being submitted could become large, larger than would be feasible for a forum such as the Teahouse. In that case, a queue could be established, but a queue then becomes essentially Articles for Creation under a different name.
Third, I will comment that, in my opinion, the large majority of submissions into AFC are not suitable for acceptance for either of two reasons. The first type of unsuitable submissions are simply junk of one sort or another, either promotional junk, self-serving junk, hopelessly non-notable junk, or even incomprehensible junk. It is important that NPP, or anything that takes the place of AFC, continue to prevent all types of junk from getting into article space. The second type of submissions that are not ready for acceptance are drafts about possibly notable topics that don’t have good references. References are the hardest aspect of writing an article for Wikipedia, and most new editors who have notable subjects or topics will need help with references. Probably the real issues about AFC have to do with what is hopelessly non-notable junk as opposed to possibly notable topics, and with what standard to apply for references.
Are the critics of Articles for Creation really saying that the concept of Articles for Creation is flawed, or are they saying that the existing culture of the Articles for Creation reviewers is flawed because it is too demanding? If the former, are they saying that new editors should be required to submit their drafts directly into article space and face deletion, or what are they saying? If the latter, how are they proposing to change that culture? Robert McClenon ( talk) 19:20, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
In order to avoid misunderstanding and speculation, whether they are in favour of a merge or not, I think it would be helpful if anyone wishing to comment would take a moment to first read #FYI, ANI notice about AFC decline issue and user above, and also this recent ANI case of ovezealous draft rejection which is typical and not isolated, Orangemoody - the exponential force of which we are unable to cope with adequately, WP:ACTRIAL which proposed far more than just a change in user editing rights included a whole host of peripheral measures to encourage new users to do the right thing and not get bitten, but the Foundation refused to read them, and finally the thread at User talk:DGG#AFC redux which should really be enjoying a more central venue. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 03:54, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Is it worth giving WP:ACTRIAL another shot? The WMF seems to have bigger churn than an industrial butter factory, and it's possible there will now be people who are more receptive to the idea, given we have far more information about the problems new editors run into, and also we should be able to produce some statistics on article quality, explaining that's where attention could be diverted over raw figures. I remain completely unhappy that new editors should have work deleted and as good as told to piss off when they have not been guided in any better direction. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:44, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Anyone comparing AFC to NPP is unaware of what AFC is today. A better comparison would be to the Teahouse. AFC is in many ways a Teahouse for new articles. Have you read the templates that users receive? You really must because they are much more than what users get at NPP. They are helpful; they attempt to explain the problem and to point users to help pages and policies. They invite users to the Teahouse and invite them to contact reviewers. And they do contact reviewers! - and it is almost always the first time that they discover talk pages. Reviewers often spend considerable time helping these new users learn how to create an article. It is a personal relationship with the editor. Some reviewers become co-editors on an article - look at the edits on some articles and you will see that. Turning AFC into a place where people learn how to create articles would be ideal. Making it possible for Teahouse responders to access the AFC-like templates would also be useful because with a single stroke they can give a user a list of useful sources. AFC reviewers work together; we get to know each other and know how to take an article to the next level. It's odd that I see none of my reviewer cohort commenting here. I assume that the attack on me has silenced them. But I am making this last effort to be an advocate for the work that is done here. I have seen new editors learn and grow, and go on to edit other articles. What I see as a useful division of labor (and some of that happens already) is for NPP to do a first pass, and to turn AfC into a place where users come specifically to get help on new articles. They could be in main space, not in draft - that really wouldn't make a difference. There are specific issues and specific teaching needs that those who frequent AfC know well. Again, if you are comparing it to NPP, you should spend some time here as a reviewer. You should also read the AfC templates, some of which might even be useful at NPP. You should read through the talk pages of some of the more active reviewers. LaMona ( talk) 11:27, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
As it stand there is no link, or any explanation, as to how to create a new article on Wiki without going through AFC. I've come back to Wiki after a few months away and now have no idea how to create a new article wihtout putting it through AFC (which i had been vaguely aware of as an alternative to creating the article yourself but had never used) - I always just search for the topic I was thinking about writing and then used the old link to create an article with that title. As it stand, it now looks like AFC is mandatory and the only route to creating new articles, which I understand it isn't. The AFC page should be updated to include at least minimal information on how to create pages without going through AFC FOARP ( talk) 12:54, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
New essay of interest to AFC folks: Wikipedia:Stop writing. In a nutshell: When drafting a new article, concentrate on finding sources, not on writing. Please feel free to edit the eassy if the mood strikes you. -- 1Wiki8........................... ( talk) 09:24, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
"the information is verifiable in principle"mean? I absolutely !vote delete at AfD regardless of the concept that sources might exist even though we can't find them. Chris Troutman ( talk) 17:01, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
"are likely to be challenged"and should therefore anticipate the need for a
"little superscript number."Your statement that
"there is no requirement that articles or drafts cite sources that show notability, only that they exist"does not agree with either WP:WHYCITE or WP:UNSOURCED, the latter of which is policy. I also challenge your assertion that AfC submitters are
"already held to massively higher standards"compared to other editors; WP:NPP should be doing for those new articles what we're doing for drafts with the exception that we can help improve and nurture drafts. I am displeased with a general trend of finding unsatisfactorily-sourced articles showing up at AfD with their survival hanging on the willingness of keep editors improving the article to make a case for notability that should have been made from the start. Wikipedia, as a whole, is suffering from too much WP:AGF because nobody wants to say "no" and stop our collective pouring of effort down a drain. Chris Troutman ( talk) 19:24, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
While it may have been mentioned above in jest, the idea of a Stubs for creation (SFC) wikiproject is something I would totally support! Not as a replacement or competition to AFC, but simply as a more structured alternative/sub-project. SFC would concentrate strongly on showing notability, and strongly discourage excessive prose in the drafting stage. Thoughtfully considering it... -- 1Wiki8........................... ( talk) 18:03, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
(Formerly discussed above as Stubs for creation, the idea has been updated into...) Topics for creation (TFC) is a proposed project to fill the gap between Requested articles and Articles for creation by assisting editors in preparing a list of independent, reliable sources on a requested topic. Please feel free to join the preliminary discussion at Village pump (idea lab)#Topics for creation. Thanks. -- 1Wiki8........................... ( talk) 12:58, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
Is it correct that an editor may not move an AFC page from draft space into article space, but must wait for a reviewer? I thought that I knew the answer, which was that anyone can move almost anything into article space. However, a draft was moved into article space by its author, and then someone whom I think was an admin moved it back into draft space, saying that the editor should have waited for a reviewer. I know that editors are always advised to wait for a reviewer, but is there actually a rule against an author moving the page into article space themselves? Robert McClenon ( talk) 01:41, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
Can add to me in the list GXXF T • C 18:19, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
Hi all, I'm new to AfC and am looking for different ways to help out. I have some experience writing bots and database reports. After poking around AfC yesterday I thought there might be an opportunity for me to put that to use here and help other reviewers. For example, the category structure organizes AfC drafts by submission date, let's you see which ones are pending review, which ones have been declined, etc. Would a sortable list that contains other kinds of information also be useful? I'm thinking of something like they have at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. For example, we could display:
We obviously couldn't list all 1000+ drafts in a single table, but perhaps this could help people keep tabs on the most recently active drafts.
It also looks like project has a few tools that help reviewers track project-level stats. The AfC status template tracks the current size of the backlog, and the AfC helper script maintains a little feed that displays the ten most recent AfC drafts. Would it be useful to have other stats about the project? For example:
These are just examples; I'm happy to hear peoples' ideas for other auto-generated reports or bot tasks that could be useful, or to just focus on helping bring down the backlog the old-fashioned way :) Cheers, J-Mo 02:20, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
From time to time, articles go through a sequence of AfD deletion, then an accepted AfC draft, then back to AfD. Looking at one such today, I notice that the AnomieBOT NewArticleAFDTagger does not act on an accepted AfC draft. Should it? Or is a completed AfC process assumed to have "washed clean" the prior notability issues?
Moving a step further back in the process, it also occurs to me that an adapted version of that BOT could help bind together AfD and AfC processes, if it was to be run against each new Draft:xxx article when it is created, adding the Old AfD multi box to Draft talk:xxx to assist reviewers by informing them of past discussion(s). AllyD ( talk) 10:05, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
Is it possible to change the code that executes when a user clicks "Submit" so that it does not actually add the draft to the review stack but intead pops up a message explaining that "due to the severe backlog we are temporarily unable to add any drafts to the review queue, please try again in 24 hours". A few days of no incoming drafts would give us an opportunity to get rid of the backlog. We can return to normal operation as soon as the queue is down to between 200-300 and there are no pending reviews older than two weeks. Roger (Dodger67) ( talk) 19:53, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Wikipedia:Articles for creation has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Youtubegirl2005 ( talk) 20:19, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
I highly believe that a backlog drive is needed (Even though we haven't had one in two years.) They have been proven to work, and it may be very fun to some editors to compete with each other and still help. I haven't seen backlogs like this ever in the time I've been on (I've been only on this site for about 9 months.) If a backlog drive was to come to fruition, I will try my best to wipe out all the AFCs.— JJBers Public ( talk) 16:18, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Wrongly moved submissions has been nominated for deletion. As this page is a part of WikiProject Articles for creation, interested editors are invited to participate at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Wrongly moved submissions.— Godsy ( TALK CONT) 17:49, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello. I wanted to let you all know that, as of a couple of hours ago, there is a new user right available: the "New page reviewers
" flag is now able to be applied for at
WP:PERM/NPR. This permission is directly tied to New Page Patrolling. Note that, in the coming days or weeks, the (patrol)
flag will be removed from other
usergroups (excluding administrators) as a result of the creation of this new usergroup. As
the New Page Patrol Tutorial notes, it is highly desirable that AfC reviewers apply for this new user right, as they already have some expertise in what to look for when reviewing new articles. Again, you can apply at
WP:PERM/NPR for the user right. Guidelines for administrators to follow when granting the permission can be found at
Wikipedia:New pages patrol/Reviewers, though it is ultimately up to the administrator to decide if a user will be granted the right. —
Gestrid (
talk)
00:19, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
Disclaimer: I wrote this of my own accord and not as a result of anyone asking me to. — Gestrid ( talk) 00:19, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
(patrol)
right has yet to be removed from other user rights groups (autoconfirmed, etc.). (Admins will keep the right when it's removed from other groups, similar to how other permissions requested at
WP:PERM work.) This was done on purpose to ease the transition and give people time to apply and get approved before the (patrol)
right was removed from everyone else. It appears the removal may happen on Wednesday or Thursday at this point. Also, no AfC reviewer has to apply. It's just an added bonus for them and New Page Reviewers (formerly New Page Patrollers) because, when you approve a draft and move it into article space, that ends up in the NPR queue. The added bonus comes when you as AfC reviewers can go ahead and mark the page as reviewed because it passed the AfC process. —
Gestrid (
talk)
04:33, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
(patrol)
is taken away.
Chris Troutman (
talk)
04:50, 1 November 2016 (UTC)I'd like to accept a page ( Draft:Exchange Bank of Canada) but a page of that name already exists in article space (the page in article space is a redirect to a list of banks which includes Exchange Bank of Canada. I'm guessing that I could put a db-move tag on the redirect page, but I wanted to check that is the right thing to do. Smmurphy( Talk) 16:07, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
I believe this RfC might be relevant for users at AfC. FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 12:57, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
An editor has created multiple draft templates in their user space with names beginning Template:. I think that this is a good-faith error on the part of the template creator. Should we review templates via AFC, or should the editor simply move them into template space? Robert McClenon ( talk) 02:01, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Per this discussion and that discussion, we could start leaving review comments on draft talk pages? I filed issue report,
And to make it easier for newcomers to find the talk page I could propose to alter the edit notice (it has the " Find sources: "Bharti AXA Life Insurance" – news · newspapers · books · scholar · HighBeam · JSTOR · free images · free news sources · The Wikipedia Library · NYT · WP reference " set of URLs right now above the edit box in draft namespace — I forget which file the edit notice is stored in, sorry) to have an extra line at the top about the talk tab, maybe with a picture. -- Gryllida ( talk) 09:14, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
Here are two pictures to illustrate what I am proposing:
-- Gryllida ( talk) 22:50, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
This article is under development; view and discuss the review comments on the talk page. |
So we have options
I apologize for not attempting to produce a list like this at the beginning. If we find which way is better or if we wish to try them all, the next step is writing software and doing a small carefully monitored transition by a limited number of volunteer reviewers to see how the newcomers would react, while carefully taking notes. I am grateful to the discussion and opinions and suggestions shared thus far and would like to see if we can get a consensus and move forward. -- Gryllida ( talk) 00:47, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
( edit conflict) I was pinged so I'l reply. I hope you'll all read it and not complain about TL;DR, and if I may, l I'l also invite Jbhunley, The Blade of the Northern Lights, MER-C, Esquivalience, and Jcc to the discussion.
I can't comment without embarrassing some users with little experience who attempt to redesign the Wiki while others with the best understanding realise that change is necessary. Progress comes slowly on Wikipedia due to its own imperfect system of convincing less knowledgeable users how important and necessary such organic changes actually are. Coupled with that is the Foundation's proven inability to respond properly to key issues while spending thousands of dollars developing gadgets that we don't need and on the notifications system which is now reduced to a confusing mess of multiple microscopic icons and lists that are slow to load ,- the old orange bar of doom worked perfectly for me.
In the meantime, the encyclopedia is getting full of hundreds of thousands of rubbish articles, COPYVIO, hoaxes, and paid spam, let through by poorly performing systems of control, and hundreds of potential good faith editors scared away for good by not having been properly informed in the first place of what they can and cannot write here.
Without wanting to belittle the work of the serious, competent AfC operatives, the needs for software, the physical work, and the levels of competency for both AfC and NPP are near identical. Where they differ fundamentally however, is that AfC, although a bonus for those who can't publish directly in mainspace, is is a small local project, while NPP is a vital and essential core process and as such is one which was desiged by and has the support of the WMF and MediaWiki. In contrast to AfC, NPP however, despite its crucial necessity as the only firewall against unwanted conten has allowed all and sundry to review , pass or mark articles for deletion without needing to demonstrate the slightest modicum of knowledge or competency.
The high frequency of necessary reverts on this AfC page in spite of the qualifications I suggested and got consensus for, demonstrate once again that maintenance work is a magnet to younger and/or inexperienced users, while manyothers appear to be concerned more about how changes affect them personally rather than for the good of Wikipedia as a whole.
For several years now, many established editors have been suggesting that AfC be scrapped. Radical change, yes, but its total abolishment may however not be entirely the solution that one team is working towards. Anyone who is seriously concerned and who can be genuinely actively engaged, and who like Roger and Chris can contribute with solid experience should consider joining the project at WP:NPPAFC where the first steps towards some objective reforms and improvements are being discussed - collaboratively - and in a dedicated venue. They will then be left in little doubt as to what is going on, and can be part of an active team that is going to formulate and make the right things happen. Such work groups are the traditional Wikipedia venues for progress and where thinking outside the box is welcome, but where dissent should be kept for the more public RfCs when the team finally presents its proposals for debate.
There have been changes now, the Foundation is also working on many necessary updates to the Page Curation software, more have been requested in several sections of the current WMF survey, and more policy changes are probably in the making. One of two things is inevitable though: either NPP and AfC will be brought under one roof combining the best of both systems and their volunteers, or WP:ACTRIAL with its massive consensus (one of the largest ever in the history of Wikipedia) will simply be enacted locally without the interference of the Foundation, and then most of the work of AfC and NPP will become redundant anyway.
I would politely and in the friedlest manner possible, suggest to Gryllida, that users worried about changes are going to need to invest far more than a five minute glance through WP:NPPAFC and all its linked pages and essential reading list before they can grasp what is going on, and when they do, they'll find that all their 'silly simple stupid' questions have been answered. They may also find that a little more work on Wikipedia will also help to fill more gaps in what they might still possibly be finding a bit confusing. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 19:36, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
The reason I removed the category is because I was brought here by clicking random draft, as if this was a submitted draft. TimothyJosephWood 11:03, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
…near to entirely, with the list of stated errors, here under Section "General standards and invalid reasons for declining a submission". The trajectory and momentum of a submitted article is important. If an article begins by violating WP:VERIFY, then odds are it will continue to do so, because inexperienced incoming editors continue to follow the patterns that they see. Holding submitted articles to WP:VERIFY, WP:OR, and other standards is NOT an error on our parts. Argue with me here, please, so all can benefit. Le Prof Leprof 7272 ( talk) 02:11, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
Robert McClenon, Kudpung, DGG, Someguy1221, NewYorkActuary: Is this matter dying, or everyone just busy? I offer the diff, [2], as a motion-on-the-table that will allow the earlier matter of the edit to th instructions to move forward. Or, shall I paste the proposed edit in here, to save going to the link? Can we argue the substance of the matter, original vs. edit? Cheers. Le Prof Leprof 7272 ( talk) 14:37, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
{{
cleanup-link rot}}
is not a last resort, and does not set a bad precedent. It's a sound course of action that can save the reviewer time, lets the submitter know there's a problem, lets general readers know there's a problem (and one they can help fix), and engages the broader community of editors outside of AfC to fix the bare URLs. --
Worldbruce (
talk)
16:06, 8 December 2016 (UTC)I have just been advised ( Link/ permanent link) by User:RexxS that I should not move drafts from user space into draft space without checking with the author. This seems contrary to the existing practice that draft space is the preferred location for AFC submissions. This issue arises in particular from User:TSKang96/Evolutionary psychological and biological explanations for prostitution. It seems that there is an issue that the print/export function does not work in draft space. So my real question is: Is the rule that draft space is the usual place for AFC submissions (and that reviewers are assisted in facilitating this by a move template) incorrect, and should user space be the usual place for AFC submissions? Robert McClenon ( talk) 19:19, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
I don’t think that I understand what User:RexxS is saying. I still don’t know whether he is saying that I should be doing something different, or that I should have done something different, or that AFC reviewers in general should do something different. I agree that “the author”, that is, the average AFC submitter, does not know the differences between different spaces. However, it appears that I am being told that I have a duty to educate “the author” on what the various spaces are, and to coordinate before doing anything. The majority of AFC submissions are crud, either clueless crud or promotional crud. They should simply be declined, and it doesn’t matter what space they are declined in. A very few AFC submissions are reasonable article submissions, and they should be accepted. A somewhat larger minority of AFC submissions are potential articles, but need work, typically better sources. They should be declined with comments, and they can reasonably be moved into draft space if they were in user space, and I don’t know of a reason why it is necessary to educate the author on the difference between user space and draft space. Maybe RexxS sees some special obligation for reviewers to educate the submitters of crud, or the submitters of decent submissions. I don’t; please explain. Robert McClenon ( talk) 18:59, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
RexxS wrote:
Let me ask why the draft should not be tagged in such a way as to make it easy for a new editor to request review? Are you saying that an experienced editor must not add the AfC submission tag to a draft that is in user space? Is there a policy that reviews are not to be conducted on user space drafts? … Now, what's your response to my first two questions above?
I see three questions. First, why should the draft not be tagged in such a way that makes it easy for a new editor to request review? The AFC tag requests review. Is there a further question? Second, am I saying that an experienced editor should not add the AFC submission tag to a draft in user space? No, I didn’t say that, but in the review process, the draft may be moved to draft space. Third, is there a policy that reviews are not to be conducted on user space drafts? No, they are conducted on drafts that are tagged with the AFC tag, but they may be moved to draft space. Now, by ‘review’, I am assuming that RexxS means review as to whether to accept the submission into article space. In the case in point, it isn’t clear to me that the draft was ready to be reviewed for acceptance into article space, but that is another point.
It still appears that RexxS is saying that the AFC review process should specially accommodate poorly planned educational assignments, and that reviewers need to be ready for them. If so, I disagree, in that I think that the burden should be on the instructor, but maybe I have missed something. Robert McClenon ( talk) 18:59, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Draft article not currently submitted for review. This is a draft Articles for creation submission. It is not currently pending review. There are no deadlines as long as you are actively improving the submission. Drafts not being improved may be deleted after six months." If you do, then perhaps you can understand my frustration at your seeming inability to understand that adding the TAG does not automatically request the REVIEW. So what's the answer to the questions "why the draft should not be tagged in such a way as to make it easy for a new editor to request review? Are you saying that an experienced editor must not add the AfC submission tag to a draft that is in user space? Is there a policy that reviews are not to be conducted on user space drafts?" If there's no reason, then why am I being criticised for placing the tag?
agreed to help the new editors when they ran into problems, and so are in contact with them (and, one can assume that the course instructor or TAs are available to you through User Talk as well)—the choice remains open to you to try to solve this amiably, and quickly, for this one particular "localised" kerfuffle. In re: discussing the practices of AfC reviewers: Sometimes trying to fix the whole system is, as you said earlier, tilting after windmills. (I myself have an appeal for consensus for simple, clarifying change to reviewer instructions that is spilling into a second week now.) Otherwise, note, I responded in good faith, as one who knows both sides. Your
I suppose I might have guessed that you'd prefer to put the blameis unnecessarily argumentative and demeaning, and so will not help you achieve what you say is your end.
User:RexxS says that I (or maybe he means LeProf) would prefer to blame university instructors rather than focus on things that we at AFC can do something about. That isn’t accurate. I am simply asking for evidence that something should be changed before telling AFC to change things. I simply don’t see that the case has been made that AFC reviewers need to do things differently. It is true that I am to a considerable extent trying to defend both myself and AFC reviewers in general against what I think are unfocused criticisms from RexxS. This started because RexxS told me not to move submissions from user space into draft space without coordinating with their authors. On further discussion, it appears at least to me that there was a poorly prepared academic exercise, and that I was being criticized for how I dealt with it and that reviewers needed to rescue poorly planned academic exercises. I still don’t see a case that either AFC reviewers in general or I in particular should change what is the common practice of moving drafts from user space into draft space. I am still ready to see that case made. Robert McClenon ( talk) 02:07, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
To answer the original questions, I will first note that there are three possible status values for a draft, whether in user space or draft space, that has the AFC tag. It may be not submitted, submitted, or declined (and not resubmitted). A draft is only reviewed if it has been tagged as submitted. To answer the first question, draft space is not the only place for review. Drafts can be and are reviewed in user space. In particular, many drafts in user sandboxes are simply declined in place, especially if they are clueless or if the reviewer cannot determine what title to give the draft. Drafts can be and are reviewed either in draft space or in user space. However, draft space is the preferred location. I am willing to consider that perhaps AFC practice should be changed so that draft space is no longer the usual preferred location. I simply haven’t seen that case made. To try to answer the second question:
Given that draft: space and user: space are not equivalent for an unknown, albeit probably small, number of new editors, do you consider the practice of moving a new editor's draft from user: space to draft: space, without any warning to the new user, "best practice", or is there room for improvement?
I will not give a quick answer, and am willing to consider the comments of other reviewers. I will say that I have moved thousands of drafts from user space (sandboxes or elsewhere in user space) to draft space, have sometimes received “Thanks”, and have never until now had an objection. I am willing to consider that moving drafts to draft space is not the “best practice”, but I haven’t seen that case made yet. The situation looks to me like an “off-by-one”, an exception. I am ready to hear the opinions of other editors. Robert McClenon ( talk) 02:07, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
I think that we have consensus that the inability to print PDFs from draft space is a bug that the WMF should be requested to fix. Do we have agreement? Robert McClenon ( talk) 15:37, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Is anyone from the WMF paying attention, or are they only interested in shiny whizbang things? Robert McClenon ( talk) 15:37, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Tomorrow (December 8, 0800-2000 GMT), BBC and Broadcasting House will be hosting an editathon. Please remember not to WP:BITE the newcomers. All editathon participants are supposed to leave the hashtag "#100WomenWiki" in their edit summaries, and that can be tracked here. Just letting you guys know so you don't end up unprepared. WP:NPR and WP:WikiProject Women have also been notified. — Gestrid ( talk) 22:33, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
As a follow up, a (probably incomplete) list is here. Carcharoth ( talk) 18:39, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
Our last backlog drive was in June 2014. Considering the fact that there are currently 960 articles waiting for review, is there any interest in another one? Ramaksoud2000 ( Talk to me) 23:00, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
The submissions list was a project launched in 2009. In the original proposal, The Earwig said that a graph and historical data would be useful additions. 7 years, 6 months, and 5 days later, I put together a bot that collects statistics and graphs them. The graph part is still under active development, but you can see a table (with a few days worth of data) here. Coming soon: acceptance statistics, decline-reason statistics, and per-reviewer statistics. I hope this will be helpful for analysis of AfC as a project! Enterprisey ( talk!) 23:16, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
I went through the Active list of participants tonight. 14 users haven't edited in 2+ months and 59 have not edited in the Draft space in 6+ months. Their names have been moved to the list of inactive participants. This leaves us with exactly 200 active reviewers (199 if you remove DGG's alternate acct), 524 inactive reviewers, 3 active bots, and 3 inactive bots. Primefac ( talk) 02:35, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
manchester New Hampshire — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lovepost13 ( talk • contribs) 19:59, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
I have been bold on an AFC draft untouched for some months, Mick Herron. I have added references, tidied it up a bit, moved it to mainspace and left a message for its creator. Please let me know (here or on my talkpage) if there is anything else I need to do. Edwardx ( talk) 12:46, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
Hi, I determined that Draft:Speaking in Tongues (documentary) was notable because it met the 2nd criterion of WP:NFO (screened at a festival five years after initial release). I went to accept it, and I found that there was a redirect in the article namespace that pointed to this draft. What do I do? Should I propose the redirect for speedy deletion if there is an article waiting to take that space? Icebob99 ( talk) 17:30, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
As we often ask contributors to list their sources for evaluation by a volunteer at #wikipedia-en-help connect, I would like to propose an edit to the last screen of the article wizard to add an option for users to submit a sources listing for evaluation without writing the article content. Would suggest it to look something like this. -- Gryllida 19:58, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
A similar idea, that was sketched out earlier this year: Draft:Topics for creation (TFC) is a proposed project to assist editors in preparing a list of independent, reliable sources on a chosen topic. These topic lists are used to determine if there is a good possibility that the topic is notable according to Wikipedia standards. -- 1Wiki8........................... ( talk) 22:53, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | ← | Archive 28 | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | → | Archive 35 |
I see that there is a viewpoint, held by some experienced editors, that the Articles for Creation process is broken, perhaps irreparably broken, and should be merged with New Page Patrol. In particular, some editors think that reviewers (or most reviewers) hold incoming articles to too high a standard. I do not agree with the general conclusion that AFC is broken and should be scrapped, but I see that, because this view is widely held, it is likely that AFC will be scrapped and merged into NPP. So I have a few comments and questions on what should be done.
First, some editors state that new editors think that AFC is mandatory for new articles, that new articles can only be submitted via the AFC review process, and not submitted directly into article space. I don’t know if some new editors do think (incorrectly) that AFC is the only way to submit new articles. I do know that some new editors use AFC after their initial submissions have been speedy-deleted. Those new editors obviously did know that they could submit directly into article space. However, if some new editors do think that AFC is mandatory for new articles, reasonable steps should be taken to clarify such a misunderstanding. New editors should be aware that they can submit directly into article space. At the same time, they should be aware that submission into article space risks any of the three deletion processes. (There will always be misunderstandings with anything as large and visible as Wikipedia. There is also a widespread belief that Wikipedia is a vehicle to publicize one’s company. There is also a widespread belief that Wikipedia is a social medium. We have done our best to address those myths. We can’t eliminate all misimpressions, and should focus on addressing those that have a negative impact on the present and future of the encyclopedia.)
Second, since having an article deleted is at least as painful as having an article declined, there should continue to be a process whereby new editors (or even experienced editors) should be able to request review before exposing their work to deletion (by any of the three deletion processes). One obvious solution would simply be to request review, from draft space or user space, at the Teahouse or some similar page. However, the number of articles being submitted could become large, larger than would be feasible for a forum such as the Teahouse. In that case, a queue could be established, but a queue then becomes essentially Articles for Creation under a different name.
Third, I will comment that, in my opinion, the large majority of submissions into AFC are not suitable for acceptance for either of two reasons. The first type of unsuitable submissions are simply junk of one sort or another, either promotional junk, self-serving junk, hopelessly non-notable junk, or even incomprehensible junk. It is important that NPP, or anything that takes the place of AFC, continue to prevent all types of junk from getting into article space. The second type of submissions that are not ready for acceptance are drafts about possibly notable topics that don’t have good references. References are the hardest aspect of writing an article for Wikipedia, and most new editors who have notable subjects or topics will need help with references. Probably the real issues about AFC have to do with what is hopelessly non-notable junk as opposed to possibly notable topics, and with what standard to apply for references.
Are the critics of Articles for Creation really saying that the concept of Articles for Creation is flawed, or are they saying that the existing culture of the Articles for Creation reviewers is flawed because it is too demanding? If the former, are they saying that new editors should be required to submit their drafts directly into article space and face deletion, or what are they saying? If the latter, how are they proposing to change that culture? Robert McClenon ( talk) 19:20, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
In order to avoid misunderstanding and speculation, whether they are in favour of a merge or not, I think it would be helpful if anyone wishing to comment would take a moment to first read #FYI, ANI notice about AFC decline issue and user above, and also this recent ANI case of ovezealous draft rejection which is typical and not isolated, Orangemoody - the exponential force of which we are unable to cope with adequately, WP:ACTRIAL which proposed far more than just a change in user editing rights included a whole host of peripheral measures to encourage new users to do the right thing and not get bitten, but the Foundation refused to read them, and finally the thread at User talk:DGG#AFC redux which should really be enjoying a more central venue. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 03:54, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Is it worth giving WP:ACTRIAL another shot? The WMF seems to have bigger churn than an industrial butter factory, and it's possible there will now be people who are more receptive to the idea, given we have far more information about the problems new editors run into, and also we should be able to produce some statistics on article quality, explaining that's where attention could be diverted over raw figures. I remain completely unhappy that new editors should have work deleted and as good as told to piss off when they have not been guided in any better direction. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:44, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Anyone comparing AFC to NPP is unaware of what AFC is today. A better comparison would be to the Teahouse. AFC is in many ways a Teahouse for new articles. Have you read the templates that users receive? You really must because they are much more than what users get at NPP. They are helpful; they attempt to explain the problem and to point users to help pages and policies. They invite users to the Teahouse and invite them to contact reviewers. And they do contact reviewers! - and it is almost always the first time that they discover talk pages. Reviewers often spend considerable time helping these new users learn how to create an article. It is a personal relationship with the editor. Some reviewers become co-editors on an article - look at the edits on some articles and you will see that. Turning AFC into a place where people learn how to create articles would be ideal. Making it possible for Teahouse responders to access the AFC-like templates would also be useful because with a single stroke they can give a user a list of useful sources. AFC reviewers work together; we get to know each other and know how to take an article to the next level. It's odd that I see none of my reviewer cohort commenting here. I assume that the attack on me has silenced them. But I am making this last effort to be an advocate for the work that is done here. I have seen new editors learn and grow, and go on to edit other articles. What I see as a useful division of labor (and some of that happens already) is for NPP to do a first pass, and to turn AfC into a place where users come specifically to get help on new articles. They could be in main space, not in draft - that really wouldn't make a difference. There are specific issues and specific teaching needs that those who frequent AfC know well. Again, if you are comparing it to NPP, you should spend some time here as a reviewer. You should also read the AfC templates, some of which might even be useful at NPP. You should read through the talk pages of some of the more active reviewers. LaMona ( talk) 11:27, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
As it stand there is no link, or any explanation, as to how to create a new article on Wiki without going through AFC. I've come back to Wiki after a few months away and now have no idea how to create a new article wihtout putting it through AFC (which i had been vaguely aware of as an alternative to creating the article yourself but had never used) - I always just search for the topic I was thinking about writing and then used the old link to create an article with that title. As it stand, it now looks like AFC is mandatory and the only route to creating new articles, which I understand it isn't. The AFC page should be updated to include at least minimal information on how to create pages without going through AFC FOARP ( talk) 12:54, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
New essay of interest to AFC folks: Wikipedia:Stop writing. In a nutshell: When drafting a new article, concentrate on finding sources, not on writing. Please feel free to edit the eassy if the mood strikes you. -- 1Wiki8........................... ( talk) 09:24, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
"the information is verifiable in principle"mean? I absolutely !vote delete at AfD regardless of the concept that sources might exist even though we can't find them. Chris Troutman ( talk) 17:01, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
"are likely to be challenged"and should therefore anticipate the need for a
"little superscript number."Your statement that
"there is no requirement that articles or drafts cite sources that show notability, only that they exist"does not agree with either WP:WHYCITE or WP:UNSOURCED, the latter of which is policy. I also challenge your assertion that AfC submitters are
"already held to massively higher standards"compared to other editors; WP:NPP should be doing for those new articles what we're doing for drafts with the exception that we can help improve and nurture drafts. I am displeased with a general trend of finding unsatisfactorily-sourced articles showing up at AfD with their survival hanging on the willingness of keep editors improving the article to make a case for notability that should have been made from the start. Wikipedia, as a whole, is suffering from too much WP:AGF because nobody wants to say "no" and stop our collective pouring of effort down a drain. Chris Troutman ( talk) 19:24, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
While it may have been mentioned above in jest, the idea of a Stubs for creation (SFC) wikiproject is something I would totally support! Not as a replacement or competition to AFC, but simply as a more structured alternative/sub-project. SFC would concentrate strongly on showing notability, and strongly discourage excessive prose in the drafting stage. Thoughtfully considering it... -- 1Wiki8........................... ( talk) 18:03, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
(Formerly discussed above as Stubs for creation, the idea has been updated into...) Topics for creation (TFC) is a proposed project to fill the gap between Requested articles and Articles for creation by assisting editors in preparing a list of independent, reliable sources on a requested topic. Please feel free to join the preliminary discussion at Village pump (idea lab)#Topics for creation. Thanks. -- 1Wiki8........................... ( talk) 12:58, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
Is it correct that an editor may not move an AFC page from draft space into article space, but must wait for a reviewer? I thought that I knew the answer, which was that anyone can move almost anything into article space. However, a draft was moved into article space by its author, and then someone whom I think was an admin moved it back into draft space, saying that the editor should have waited for a reviewer. I know that editors are always advised to wait for a reviewer, but is there actually a rule against an author moving the page into article space themselves? Robert McClenon ( talk) 01:41, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
Can add to me in the list GXXF T • C 18:19, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
Hi all, I'm new to AfC and am looking for different ways to help out. I have some experience writing bots and database reports. After poking around AfC yesterday I thought there might be an opportunity for me to put that to use here and help other reviewers. For example, the category structure organizes AfC drafts by submission date, let's you see which ones are pending review, which ones have been declined, etc. Would a sortable list that contains other kinds of information also be useful? I'm thinking of something like they have at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. For example, we could display:
We obviously couldn't list all 1000+ drafts in a single table, but perhaps this could help people keep tabs on the most recently active drafts.
It also looks like project has a few tools that help reviewers track project-level stats. The AfC status template tracks the current size of the backlog, and the AfC helper script maintains a little feed that displays the ten most recent AfC drafts. Would it be useful to have other stats about the project? For example:
These are just examples; I'm happy to hear peoples' ideas for other auto-generated reports or bot tasks that could be useful, or to just focus on helping bring down the backlog the old-fashioned way :) Cheers, J-Mo 02:20, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
From time to time, articles go through a sequence of AfD deletion, then an accepted AfC draft, then back to AfD. Looking at one such today, I notice that the AnomieBOT NewArticleAFDTagger does not act on an accepted AfC draft. Should it? Or is a completed AfC process assumed to have "washed clean" the prior notability issues?
Moving a step further back in the process, it also occurs to me that an adapted version of that BOT could help bind together AfD and AfC processes, if it was to be run against each new Draft:xxx article when it is created, adding the Old AfD multi box to Draft talk:xxx to assist reviewers by informing them of past discussion(s). AllyD ( talk) 10:05, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
Is it possible to change the code that executes when a user clicks "Submit" so that it does not actually add the draft to the review stack but intead pops up a message explaining that "due to the severe backlog we are temporarily unable to add any drafts to the review queue, please try again in 24 hours". A few days of no incoming drafts would give us an opportunity to get rid of the backlog. We can return to normal operation as soon as the queue is down to between 200-300 and there are no pending reviews older than two weeks. Roger (Dodger67) ( talk) 19:53, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Wikipedia:Articles for creation has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Youtubegirl2005 ( talk) 20:19, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
I highly believe that a backlog drive is needed (Even though we haven't had one in two years.) They have been proven to work, and it may be very fun to some editors to compete with each other and still help. I haven't seen backlogs like this ever in the time I've been on (I've been only on this site for about 9 months.) If a backlog drive was to come to fruition, I will try my best to wipe out all the AFCs.— JJBers Public ( talk) 16:18, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Wrongly moved submissions has been nominated for deletion. As this page is a part of WikiProject Articles for creation, interested editors are invited to participate at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Wrongly moved submissions.— Godsy ( TALK CONT) 17:49, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello. I wanted to let you all know that, as of a couple of hours ago, there is a new user right available: the "New page reviewers
" flag is now able to be applied for at
WP:PERM/NPR. This permission is directly tied to New Page Patrolling. Note that, in the coming days or weeks, the (patrol)
flag will be removed from other
usergroups (excluding administrators) as a result of the creation of this new usergroup. As
the New Page Patrol Tutorial notes, it is highly desirable that AfC reviewers apply for this new user right, as they already have some expertise in what to look for when reviewing new articles. Again, you can apply at
WP:PERM/NPR for the user right. Guidelines for administrators to follow when granting the permission can be found at
Wikipedia:New pages patrol/Reviewers, though it is ultimately up to the administrator to decide if a user will be granted the right. —
Gestrid (
talk)
00:19, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
Disclaimer: I wrote this of my own accord and not as a result of anyone asking me to. — Gestrid ( talk) 00:19, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
(patrol)
right has yet to be removed from other user rights groups (autoconfirmed, etc.). (Admins will keep the right when it's removed from other groups, similar to how other permissions requested at
WP:PERM work.) This was done on purpose to ease the transition and give people time to apply and get approved before the (patrol)
right was removed from everyone else. It appears the removal may happen on Wednesday or Thursday at this point. Also, no AfC reviewer has to apply. It's just an added bonus for them and New Page Reviewers (formerly New Page Patrollers) because, when you approve a draft and move it into article space, that ends up in the NPR queue. The added bonus comes when you as AfC reviewers can go ahead and mark the page as reviewed because it passed the AfC process. —
Gestrid (
talk)
04:33, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
(patrol)
is taken away.
Chris Troutman (
talk)
04:50, 1 November 2016 (UTC)I'd like to accept a page ( Draft:Exchange Bank of Canada) but a page of that name already exists in article space (the page in article space is a redirect to a list of banks which includes Exchange Bank of Canada. I'm guessing that I could put a db-move tag on the redirect page, but I wanted to check that is the right thing to do. Smmurphy( Talk) 16:07, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
I believe this RfC might be relevant for users at AfC. FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 12:57, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
An editor has created multiple draft templates in their user space with names beginning Template:. I think that this is a good-faith error on the part of the template creator. Should we review templates via AFC, or should the editor simply move them into template space? Robert McClenon ( talk) 02:01, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Per this discussion and that discussion, we could start leaving review comments on draft talk pages? I filed issue report,
And to make it easier for newcomers to find the talk page I could propose to alter the edit notice (it has the " Find sources: "Bharti AXA Life Insurance" – news · newspapers · books · scholar · HighBeam · JSTOR · free images · free news sources · The Wikipedia Library · NYT · WP reference " set of URLs right now above the edit box in draft namespace — I forget which file the edit notice is stored in, sorry) to have an extra line at the top about the talk tab, maybe with a picture. -- Gryllida ( talk) 09:14, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
Here are two pictures to illustrate what I am proposing:
-- Gryllida ( talk) 22:50, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
This article is under development; view and discuss the review comments on the talk page. |
So we have options
I apologize for not attempting to produce a list like this at the beginning. If we find which way is better or if we wish to try them all, the next step is writing software and doing a small carefully monitored transition by a limited number of volunteer reviewers to see how the newcomers would react, while carefully taking notes. I am grateful to the discussion and opinions and suggestions shared thus far and would like to see if we can get a consensus and move forward. -- Gryllida ( talk) 00:47, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
( edit conflict) I was pinged so I'l reply. I hope you'll all read it and not complain about TL;DR, and if I may, l I'l also invite Jbhunley, The Blade of the Northern Lights, MER-C, Esquivalience, and Jcc to the discussion.
I can't comment without embarrassing some users with little experience who attempt to redesign the Wiki while others with the best understanding realise that change is necessary. Progress comes slowly on Wikipedia due to its own imperfect system of convincing less knowledgeable users how important and necessary such organic changes actually are. Coupled with that is the Foundation's proven inability to respond properly to key issues while spending thousands of dollars developing gadgets that we don't need and on the notifications system which is now reduced to a confusing mess of multiple microscopic icons and lists that are slow to load ,- the old orange bar of doom worked perfectly for me.
In the meantime, the encyclopedia is getting full of hundreds of thousands of rubbish articles, COPYVIO, hoaxes, and paid spam, let through by poorly performing systems of control, and hundreds of potential good faith editors scared away for good by not having been properly informed in the first place of what they can and cannot write here.
Without wanting to belittle the work of the serious, competent AfC operatives, the needs for software, the physical work, and the levels of competency for both AfC and NPP are near identical. Where they differ fundamentally however, is that AfC, although a bonus for those who can't publish directly in mainspace, is is a small local project, while NPP is a vital and essential core process and as such is one which was desiged by and has the support of the WMF and MediaWiki. In contrast to AfC, NPP however, despite its crucial necessity as the only firewall against unwanted conten has allowed all and sundry to review , pass or mark articles for deletion without needing to demonstrate the slightest modicum of knowledge or competency.
The high frequency of necessary reverts on this AfC page in spite of the qualifications I suggested and got consensus for, demonstrate once again that maintenance work is a magnet to younger and/or inexperienced users, while manyothers appear to be concerned more about how changes affect them personally rather than for the good of Wikipedia as a whole.
For several years now, many established editors have been suggesting that AfC be scrapped. Radical change, yes, but its total abolishment may however not be entirely the solution that one team is working towards. Anyone who is seriously concerned and who can be genuinely actively engaged, and who like Roger and Chris can contribute with solid experience should consider joining the project at WP:NPPAFC where the first steps towards some objective reforms and improvements are being discussed - collaboratively - and in a dedicated venue. They will then be left in little doubt as to what is going on, and can be part of an active team that is going to formulate and make the right things happen. Such work groups are the traditional Wikipedia venues for progress and where thinking outside the box is welcome, but where dissent should be kept for the more public RfCs when the team finally presents its proposals for debate.
There have been changes now, the Foundation is also working on many necessary updates to the Page Curation software, more have been requested in several sections of the current WMF survey, and more policy changes are probably in the making. One of two things is inevitable though: either NPP and AfC will be brought under one roof combining the best of both systems and their volunteers, or WP:ACTRIAL with its massive consensus (one of the largest ever in the history of Wikipedia) will simply be enacted locally without the interference of the Foundation, and then most of the work of AfC and NPP will become redundant anyway.
I would politely and in the friedlest manner possible, suggest to Gryllida, that users worried about changes are going to need to invest far more than a five minute glance through WP:NPPAFC and all its linked pages and essential reading list before they can grasp what is going on, and when they do, they'll find that all their 'silly simple stupid' questions have been answered. They may also find that a little more work on Wikipedia will also help to fill more gaps in what they might still possibly be finding a bit confusing. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 19:36, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
The reason I removed the category is because I was brought here by clicking random draft, as if this was a submitted draft. TimothyJosephWood 11:03, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
…near to entirely, with the list of stated errors, here under Section "General standards and invalid reasons for declining a submission". The trajectory and momentum of a submitted article is important. If an article begins by violating WP:VERIFY, then odds are it will continue to do so, because inexperienced incoming editors continue to follow the patterns that they see. Holding submitted articles to WP:VERIFY, WP:OR, and other standards is NOT an error on our parts. Argue with me here, please, so all can benefit. Le Prof Leprof 7272 ( talk) 02:11, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
Robert McClenon, Kudpung, DGG, Someguy1221, NewYorkActuary: Is this matter dying, or everyone just busy? I offer the diff, [2], as a motion-on-the-table that will allow the earlier matter of the edit to th instructions to move forward. Or, shall I paste the proposed edit in here, to save going to the link? Can we argue the substance of the matter, original vs. edit? Cheers. Le Prof Leprof 7272 ( talk) 14:37, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
{{
cleanup-link rot}}
is not a last resort, and does not set a bad precedent. It's a sound course of action that can save the reviewer time, lets the submitter know there's a problem, lets general readers know there's a problem (and one they can help fix), and engages the broader community of editors outside of AfC to fix the bare URLs. --
Worldbruce (
talk)
16:06, 8 December 2016 (UTC)I have just been advised ( Link/ permanent link) by User:RexxS that I should not move drafts from user space into draft space without checking with the author. This seems contrary to the existing practice that draft space is the preferred location for AFC submissions. This issue arises in particular from User:TSKang96/Evolutionary psychological and biological explanations for prostitution. It seems that there is an issue that the print/export function does not work in draft space. So my real question is: Is the rule that draft space is the usual place for AFC submissions (and that reviewers are assisted in facilitating this by a move template) incorrect, and should user space be the usual place for AFC submissions? Robert McClenon ( talk) 19:19, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
I don’t think that I understand what User:RexxS is saying. I still don’t know whether he is saying that I should be doing something different, or that I should have done something different, or that AFC reviewers in general should do something different. I agree that “the author”, that is, the average AFC submitter, does not know the differences between different spaces. However, it appears that I am being told that I have a duty to educate “the author” on what the various spaces are, and to coordinate before doing anything. The majority of AFC submissions are crud, either clueless crud or promotional crud. They should simply be declined, and it doesn’t matter what space they are declined in. A very few AFC submissions are reasonable article submissions, and they should be accepted. A somewhat larger minority of AFC submissions are potential articles, but need work, typically better sources. They should be declined with comments, and they can reasonably be moved into draft space if they were in user space, and I don’t know of a reason why it is necessary to educate the author on the difference between user space and draft space. Maybe RexxS sees some special obligation for reviewers to educate the submitters of crud, or the submitters of decent submissions. I don’t; please explain. Robert McClenon ( talk) 18:59, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
RexxS wrote:
Let me ask why the draft should not be tagged in such a way as to make it easy for a new editor to request review? Are you saying that an experienced editor must not add the AfC submission tag to a draft that is in user space? Is there a policy that reviews are not to be conducted on user space drafts? … Now, what's your response to my first two questions above?
I see three questions. First, why should the draft not be tagged in such a way that makes it easy for a new editor to request review? The AFC tag requests review. Is there a further question? Second, am I saying that an experienced editor should not add the AFC submission tag to a draft in user space? No, I didn’t say that, but in the review process, the draft may be moved to draft space. Third, is there a policy that reviews are not to be conducted on user space drafts? No, they are conducted on drafts that are tagged with the AFC tag, but they may be moved to draft space. Now, by ‘review’, I am assuming that RexxS means review as to whether to accept the submission into article space. In the case in point, it isn’t clear to me that the draft was ready to be reviewed for acceptance into article space, but that is another point.
It still appears that RexxS is saying that the AFC review process should specially accommodate poorly planned educational assignments, and that reviewers need to be ready for them. If so, I disagree, in that I think that the burden should be on the instructor, but maybe I have missed something. Robert McClenon ( talk) 18:59, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Draft article not currently submitted for review. This is a draft Articles for creation submission. It is not currently pending review. There are no deadlines as long as you are actively improving the submission. Drafts not being improved may be deleted after six months." If you do, then perhaps you can understand my frustration at your seeming inability to understand that adding the TAG does not automatically request the REVIEW. So what's the answer to the questions "why the draft should not be tagged in such a way as to make it easy for a new editor to request review? Are you saying that an experienced editor must not add the AfC submission tag to a draft that is in user space? Is there a policy that reviews are not to be conducted on user space drafts?" If there's no reason, then why am I being criticised for placing the tag?
agreed to help the new editors when they ran into problems, and so are in contact with them (and, one can assume that the course instructor or TAs are available to you through User Talk as well)—the choice remains open to you to try to solve this amiably, and quickly, for this one particular "localised" kerfuffle. In re: discussing the practices of AfC reviewers: Sometimes trying to fix the whole system is, as you said earlier, tilting after windmills. (I myself have an appeal for consensus for simple, clarifying change to reviewer instructions that is spilling into a second week now.) Otherwise, note, I responded in good faith, as one who knows both sides. Your
I suppose I might have guessed that you'd prefer to put the blameis unnecessarily argumentative and demeaning, and so will not help you achieve what you say is your end.
User:RexxS says that I (or maybe he means LeProf) would prefer to blame university instructors rather than focus on things that we at AFC can do something about. That isn’t accurate. I am simply asking for evidence that something should be changed before telling AFC to change things. I simply don’t see that the case has been made that AFC reviewers need to do things differently. It is true that I am to a considerable extent trying to defend both myself and AFC reviewers in general against what I think are unfocused criticisms from RexxS. This started because RexxS told me not to move submissions from user space into draft space without coordinating with their authors. On further discussion, it appears at least to me that there was a poorly prepared academic exercise, and that I was being criticized for how I dealt with it and that reviewers needed to rescue poorly planned academic exercises. I still don’t see a case that either AFC reviewers in general or I in particular should change what is the common practice of moving drafts from user space into draft space. I am still ready to see that case made. Robert McClenon ( talk) 02:07, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
To answer the original questions, I will first note that there are three possible status values for a draft, whether in user space or draft space, that has the AFC tag. It may be not submitted, submitted, or declined (and not resubmitted). A draft is only reviewed if it has been tagged as submitted. To answer the first question, draft space is not the only place for review. Drafts can be and are reviewed in user space. In particular, many drafts in user sandboxes are simply declined in place, especially if they are clueless or if the reviewer cannot determine what title to give the draft. Drafts can be and are reviewed either in draft space or in user space. However, draft space is the preferred location. I am willing to consider that perhaps AFC practice should be changed so that draft space is no longer the usual preferred location. I simply haven’t seen that case made. To try to answer the second question:
Given that draft: space and user: space are not equivalent for an unknown, albeit probably small, number of new editors, do you consider the practice of moving a new editor's draft from user: space to draft: space, without any warning to the new user, "best practice", or is there room for improvement?
I will not give a quick answer, and am willing to consider the comments of other reviewers. I will say that I have moved thousands of drafts from user space (sandboxes or elsewhere in user space) to draft space, have sometimes received “Thanks”, and have never until now had an objection. I am willing to consider that moving drafts to draft space is not the “best practice”, but I haven’t seen that case made yet. The situation looks to me like an “off-by-one”, an exception. I am ready to hear the opinions of other editors. Robert McClenon ( talk) 02:07, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
I think that we have consensus that the inability to print PDFs from draft space is a bug that the WMF should be requested to fix. Do we have agreement? Robert McClenon ( talk) 15:37, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Is anyone from the WMF paying attention, or are they only interested in shiny whizbang things? Robert McClenon ( talk) 15:37, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Tomorrow (December 8, 0800-2000 GMT), BBC and Broadcasting House will be hosting an editathon. Please remember not to WP:BITE the newcomers. All editathon participants are supposed to leave the hashtag "#100WomenWiki" in their edit summaries, and that can be tracked here. Just letting you guys know so you don't end up unprepared. WP:NPR and WP:WikiProject Women have also been notified. — Gestrid ( talk) 22:33, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
As a follow up, a (probably incomplete) list is here. Carcharoth ( talk) 18:39, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
Our last backlog drive was in June 2014. Considering the fact that there are currently 960 articles waiting for review, is there any interest in another one? Ramaksoud2000 ( Talk to me) 23:00, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
The submissions list was a project launched in 2009. In the original proposal, The Earwig said that a graph and historical data would be useful additions. 7 years, 6 months, and 5 days later, I put together a bot that collects statistics and graphs them. The graph part is still under active development, but you can see a table (with a few days worth of data) here. Coming soon: acceptance statistics, decline-reason statistics, and per-reviewer statistics. I hope this will be helpful for analysis of AfC as a project! Enterprisey ( talk!) 23:16, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
I went through the Active list of participants tonight. 14 users haven't edited in 2+ months and 59 have not edited in the Draft space in 6+ months. Their names have been moved to the list of inactive participants. This leaves us with exactly 200 active reviewers (199 if you remove DGG's alternate acct), 524 inactive reviewers, 3 active bots, and 3 inactive bots. Primefac ( talk) 02:35, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
manchester New Hampshire — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lovepost13 ( talk • contribs) 19:59, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
I have been bold on an AFC draft untouched for some months, Mick Herron. I have added references, tidied it up a bit, moved it to mainspace and left a message for its creator. Please let me know (here or on my talkpage) if there is anything else I need to do. Edwardx ( talk) 12:46, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
Hi, I determined that Draft:Speaking in Tongues (documentary) was notable because it met the 2nd criterion of WP:NFO (screened at a festival five years after initial release). I went to accept it, and I found that there was a redirect in the article namespace that pointed to this draft. What do I do? Should I propose the redirect for speedy deletion if there is an article waiting to take that space? Icebob99 ( talk) 17:30, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
As we often ask contributors to list their sources for evaluation by a volunteer at #wikipedia-en-help connect, I would like to propose an edit to the last screen of the article wizard to add an option for users to submit a sources listing for evaluation without writing the article content. Would suggest it to look something like this. -- Gryllida 19:58, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
A similar idea, that was sketched out earlier this year: Draft:Topics for creation (TFC) is a proposed project to assist editors in preparing a list of independent, reliable sources on a chosen topic. These topic lists are used to determine if there is a good possibility that the topic is notable according to Wikipedia standards. -- 1Wiki8........................... ( talk) 22:53, 23 December 2016 (UTC)