This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
We should rewrite this section to say wikipedia entries are not just collections of internal links except in the following cases...
Now which are the cases? Disambiguation pages are one case, categories another. What else? ---- Charles Stewart 02:20, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"Wikipedia is not a discussion forum or chat room (mind you, neither is Everything2, or at least it tries not to be..."
This is a non-NPOV attack on E2. What's the best way to fix it?
Twinxor 22:34, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I recently saw someone writing this on Talk:Georgia, yet I don't think this has ever been brought up before. Anything to say about this?? 66.245.26.130 14:12, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I noticed that the prohibition on recipies on Wikipedia was fairly recent, and seems to have been the cause for several deletions lately. Was that added as a result of the consensus of some discussion? I'm not really sure where these policies come from; I notice that it wasn't on the talk page for this article, and there wasn't a reference in the edit history to where a discussion had been held. Thanks. -- Creidieki 02:10, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
There was no such agreement. NEither on the mailing lists. Nor on wikipedia itself. I invite you to read the discussion here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_recipes/Delete and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3ARecipes_proposal SweetLittleFluffyThing
I am appalled at this radical decision as it limits the usability of Wikipedia because of a sister project that is known mostly for its vanity. Looking over wikicookbook I can see it is most definitely not representative of traditional recipes but a repository for every tom, dick and harry to promulgate their own culinary agendas. It is nothing like an encyclopedic cookbook. A baguette is a baguette is a baguette the recipe is almost immutable and a selection process would not be needed to decide on which recipe is representative of it because there is little deviation in baking. As to cooking, I am undecided as that is a whole other realm but standard baking recipes should be included in wikipedia not wikicookbook which seems a vanity project. Recipes help people like me a pastry chef define in our own language of kitchen chemistry the object we are talking about. Without these simple guidelines it is difficult to draw a line between an egg custard, a brulee or a flan without needlessly complicating entries. I think we should rediscuss this, or I might likely leave this project that I have just arrived at. -- Rakista 15:58, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Is the following appropriate for "What Wikipedia entries are not"?
It would sound better to me if it was adjusted to an item in the "What entries is not" section. I'll wait for comments before applying the change, since the item has a distinguished history ... ---- Charles Stewart 03:44, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I agree that Wikipedia entries should be neutral and all of this. My question is about the *process* of things. Let's take a contentious article like the Israelis and Palestinians. Or perhaps I'll call them Houyhnhnms and Yahoos. When I come to the page, I see it is written by a Yahoo, with POV language "The wretched evil Houyhnhnms persecute and kill Yahoos for no reasons, and have the degenerate habit of breaking their eggs on the big end of the egg". I am a Houyhnhnm, and I feel this is unfair so I rewrite it, perhaps taking out the adjectives wretched, evil and degenerate, and then add some negative factual information about the Yahoos. The Yahoo then comes on the page and we go back and forth.
In an ideal world, the Houyhnhnm and Yahoo will balance each other out. Perhaps even a Brobdingnagium comes around, who could care less about Houyhnhnhms and Yahoos and which end of an egg to break open, and serves as sort of a neutral peace maker.
In some ways you could say numerically, the Houyhnhnm and Yahoo are a 1 and a -1. NPOV is 0. Houyhnhnm knows eveything good about Houyhnhnms and everything bad about Yahoos. Yahoo knows everything bad about Houyhnhnms and everything good about Yahoos. When they both add their comments to the page, and strip away POV language, baseless assertions and so forth, the article becomes more balanced. The -1 added to the 1 equals 0 - NPOV.
However, if the Houyhnhnm starts out as a 0, and the Yahoo continues as a -1, then that back and forth will become a -0.5. The page will become unbalanced because the Yahoo is being 100% pro-Yahoo and anti-Houyhnhnm, and the Yahoo is being 50/50 on things. The page becomes unbalanced, overpraising Yahoos, demonizing Houyhnhnms.
I hope people see the point I'm trying to make. The article should be 0 - NPOV. But the more biased the other side is, the more biased your side has to be just to get the article to the middle, to NPOV.
I think rule #6 is kind of vague and I'm not sure exactly what it means. Or more the question is - how does one be NPOV when others are not committed to NPOV? Ruy Lopez 23:29, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Wikicities dosen't have as strict of a policy as Wikipedia. Would it be OK if people put external links on Wikipedia articles for propoganda articles on Wikicities. If it is, mention it as an exception to the WWIN policy. -- SuperDude 23:58, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
I would like to make it policy that wikipedia is not a memorial service for people unless their death in and of itself was proveably significant (ie. caused new laws to be created etc.). This, of course, does not apply to people who merited a wikipedia article in life. Oberiko 21:06, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Oh no, the barnstar! Ashiibaka tlk 02:43, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I have been doing a lot of thinking about wikipedia and fancruft, what is encylopedic and what isn't. I feel that we need to have the policy "wikipedia is not cliff notes", in the same way as "wikipedia is not a dictionary". Obvious its ok to use a definition or plot summary within an article, but when an article is only that and looks like it can only be that, then it should be vfd. This instantly solves to me the fancruft problem, and helps ensure the encyclopedic nature of wikipedia. Thoughts?
Let me explain again: my proposed rule is this: In the same way "dictdef" articles are deleted now if they contain solely a dictionary definition and seem like they will contain no more then that, articles which simply summarize the plot or plot elements of anything (such as an article about the workings of a tie fighter) would be deleted too. Obviously its ok to use plot summaries, just as it is ok to use definitions, yet an article consisting solely of that and appearing to be not likely more, should be vfd. This is the best way to solve the fancruft problem.
Propose:
Perhaps a better name for this section would be: Wikipedia is not a pile of facts. I think that the point that we should be getting at is that we should be providing information that is useful to people who are consulting an encyclopaedia: it should be the kind of information that wikipedia users might be after, and it should be provided in a way that the interested user is likely to find it. The general point is controversial, I think, though, isn't it? The people who are arguing that wikipedia is not a paper encyclopaedia and should be treated as a different sort of enterprise are arguing exactly that if information is interesting for somebody then it doesn't hurt to make it available. I think that actually providing examples of what this policy excludes is necessary, and until we do and have a consensus on it, then it should not be policy. I propose deleting the item. ---- Charles Stewart 09:14, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Let me explain what I think about the sentences in the paragraph under discussion.
And in response to Dpbsmith, I don't know your attitude in these matters, but every inclusionist always argues that "Wiki is not paper". While that can hardly be denied, the implied consequence "...and therefore I can stick into it whatever I like" is what angers us deletionists, or as I would put it, encyclopedists, because that implication is rarely ever enunciated. And if we don't make it clear that this is an encyclopedia and we Wikipedians reserve the right to decide what befits an encyclopedia, every bored kid with a computer will continue to drop their random nonsense here. That already happens, Wikipedia is currently being stuffed with worthless junk of every description. We should not surrender the chance to put a clear-cut definition of what Wikipedia is not on right here where every reader can see it. Kosebamse 11:35, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Please review my proposal of a revised version. Note that I have not much changed the content, but rearranged it in a more logical fashion, rewritten a few sentences, added a few explanations, and raised an item from the second list to the rank of a "What Wikipedia is not" topic. The proposed version is at Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not/Rewrite December 2004, and I would suggest to discuss it here, not on a talk page of its own. Thanks. Kosebamse 14:45, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Methinks there should be a chance for some more refinement, say until after christmas or new year, and then mention it on the pump, get some more discussion and hopefully move it to project page then. How about that? Kosebamse 07:13, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well done, Dan, looks much better now. And by the way, I think we should not update the note at the top of the draft; there will be changes done (and possibly reverted) on the original page until (if ever) the rewrite goes live, and there is no need to incorporate those changes until then. Merry Christmas (or whatever you are celebrating), Kosebamse 11:42, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'll put a notice on the pump and ask people for comments and/or improvement. Suggest to wait for another week or so and then move the rewritten version to Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not if there are no objections. Kosebamse 11:21, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It's very nice, very clean looking. I like that, "The Wikipedia is not a theater of war". -- AllyUnion (talk) 19:07, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
As there seem to be no serious objections, I'll move the rewritten version to Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not shortly. I have updated the draft to reflect the current status. Note that the version of the "censorship" item is that which is currently on the live page, so if there are any unresolved disagreements, please correct that/discuss below. Best regards and happy editing, Kosebamse 12:49, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I'm getting a bit tired of seeing pages that consist of sequences of facts tacked on sequentially and incrementally by sequences of contributors. Not only are such would-be articles stylistically inconsistent and devoid of structure, they also risk duplication of information and seeming contradictions. (I addressed the seriousness of this issue in a recent essay.) I'd like to see this mentioned here. -- Smack 20:01, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
By the way, how many of you have seen Wikipedia:Importance and the closely related Wikipedia:informative? I really like those pages and together, their definition of what should be considered encyclopeadic. I'd like to see it go from Proposed to Offical policy. Maybe it could be linked to in some way from this page. Dan100 22:43, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
Articles on video game topics are not inherently unencyclopedic, but many are crossing the line into "how to" articles, some mere collections of statistics about the monster in question -- not merely uninteresting to anyone except a fan, but incomprehensible to anyone except a fan. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:45, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a biographical dictionary, but entries about notable individuals are acceptable. To me the latter is the primary meaning of "biographical dictionary", and Wikipedia encompasses a vast biographical dictionary. It would be clearer to say something like, "Wikipedia is not a repository for biographies of non-notable people. Biographical entries are only appropriate for individuals who have achievements which are of interest to a range of people beyond their personal associates." Whoops, I forgot to sign this the last time I was here. Wincoote 07:31, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
What about categorisation of pages as (put very crudely) adult, then allowing filtering? That is not censorship, though it would facilitate it and encourage wider participation.
If I didn't want to let my kids read about non-creationist theories, I could
a) Ban them from using the wikipedia at all b) Ban them from using a class of pages in the wikipedia c) Allow them to use a set of categories of pages d) Allow them to see specific pages I have chosen and checked myself
a) and d) are available now, but b) and c), NPOV black and white listing, would be better than a), no? Also, many people wouldn't have the time, energy or inclination to do d), though some do use filtered ISPs.
I raise this here as I couldn't see anything about it in the text below (which should be summarised, preferably by the participants, who I've listed below). Mr. Jones 13:13, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
Participants
Please don't rewrite the policy without indulging in discussion. You know that this is being discussed elsewhere. Trying to rewrite policy to back your POV is not constructive to that debate at all. Dr Zen 00:13, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The statement you removed (added on 24 December by SPUI with minor edits by me and 61.255.27.5) wasn't policy, it was a statement of fact, as follows:
If you don't believe the above is factual, could you please indicate which parts of it you believe to be either interpretation or contrafactual. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 01:05, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I was being bold by adding it, after a short discussion on IRC; it was only later that I realized stuff to be added was discussed first on the talk page. -- SPUI 01:10, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Tony, I don't think it should be included at all. It's not necessary. You've stuck it in purely as advocacy. Please don't. You have to accept that your idea of what is acceptable in an encyclopaedia is not necessarily shared by all. There has been very little de facto censorship (except, as we've discussed, that we decide each day what articles will and will not include and that in itself is a form of censorship). The very nature of a wiki is that they are not censored in the way this suggests they might be, so, please, don't try to make your view policy by the back door. The truth of the matter is that the encyclopaedia can be censored for the sake of minors if there is a consensus to do so. (The goatse picture has, so far as I know, been censored by consensus. I note this view (my emphasis): "My opinion is that a link to the site (and its mirrors) will suffice. I don't see any gain in having WP host images that may well lead to boycotts from certain users, censorship from sensitive groups (eg. an inclusion on various schools' internet filters) and will almost certainly undermine people's trust in the site. Why should these images be on the site? --Fangz 03:08, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)") That there is unlikely to be a consensus to do so in most cases doesn't change its being possible. On that basis, I oppose this addition.
SPUI, I'm a big fan of being bold but I'm also a fan of not trying to get your own way by a subterfuge. This gets put in and then anyone who suggests that we should have inclusive solutions for images is likely to have it shoved in their faces. Dr Zen 01:40, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Actually, the inclusion of images was almost an afterthought; the reason I thought to add it was several people complaining about my use of the word 'fuck' in edit summaries (not for personal attacks, but for example "fuck, I was wrong, adding the correct data"), one specifically stating that I should 'keep Wikipedia G-rated'. Maybe it should just not mention images at all. -- SPUI 02:11, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I think something along the lines of the above should be included. We should not be censoring on the basis of protecting the children (or anyone else) from harmful material. WRT the goatse picture, potential harmfulness is not necessary to reach consensus on not including it -- it is presumably copyrighted, after all. Tuf-Kat 02:17, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)
DrZen, I did not insert that piece. Please be careful before you accuse people of engaging in advocacy. As a matter of fact, Wikipedia is not censored so as to be "suitable for minors" (whatever that might be taken to mean). This isn't every likely to change. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 02:22, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
(Some of the following edited to remove personal attacks)
Okay. You say: You do seem in fact to be advocating a Wikipedia that is not censored in this particular way. No, I'm stating that as a matter of fact it is not censored in a manner to make it suitable for reading by children. It never has been. It's extremely unlikely that it ever will be.
You say: I am sorry though that I seem to have made the assumption that you were involved in the IRC discussion that prompted its inclusion.
I have not used IRC for about four years. Moreover I have no idea who this SPUI chap is.
In your reference to censorship, which I don't deny happens, you seem to have ignored that fact that what SPUI actually wrote (slightly refactored by me to relegate some US-only terminology, was this:
"Wikipedia is not censored for the 'protection of minors' ( G-rated)."
This is a factual statement. It is not advocacy. It is not a claim that wikipedia is not censored. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 03:03, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
You say "It is not a "matter of fact" that it is not censored." I agree. Again this does not contradict the section that you have removed. You what? You've just said it is a matter of fact that it is not censored and that what you have put is a statement of that matter of fact. Now you are agreeing that it is not a matter of fact that it is not censored. I'm beginning to feel you are at best taking the piss, and at worst simply trolling me because I disagree with you.
Taking your points in turn:
1. Wikipedia is censored as its members see fit Absolutely. And that censorship does not extend to G-Rating the site.
2. Wikipedia is censored in the way stated IF the community desires it. Wikipedia is not G-rated. This is a statement of fact.
3. Even if you edit disputed text, it is still a revert, Tony. Don't let's play that game. Do not again falsely accuse me of reverting. Do not again falsely accuse me of playing games.
First version: Wikipedia is not censored for the 'protection of minors' ( G-rated). Articles should not contain needless usage of profanity or explicit images, but if the use of the word or image adds to the article, most editors believe it should be kept (see Talk:Clitoris for debate relating to an image). Guidelines for internal communications are at Wikipedia:Civility; the intent and meaning of the message is much more important than the words used.
Second version: Wikipedia is not censored for the 'protection of minors' ( G-rated). Firstly, anyone can edit an article and the results are displayed instantaneously, so we cannot guarantee that a child will see or read nothing objectionable. Secondly, Wikipedia has no organized system for the removal of material that might be thought likely to harm minors.
4. You've just said it is a matter of fact that it is not censored. No I have not.
5. It has been censored on the basis you say it should not be and I have given an example of this. I have not stated how it should and should not be censored. I have stated correctly that it is not censored for the protection of minors.
6. If the community does not agree, that is perfectly okay, but you cannot a priori delimit the range of views that are permissible. I have not done so. I have simply stated, correctly, that Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors. The fact that it could be or even that editors have decided to do so with specific parts of it in the past does not alter the fact that, as a whole, it is not.
I shall now submit a third version of the clause making it clear that this refers to the whole of the site. Blankfaze has reverted. I'll stick with what we have for now. --
Tony Sidaway|
Talk 05:54, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I deplore your rewriting the policy to something that is entirely antiwiki but I am fed up with fighting bigots and POV pushers for today. Wikipedia is neither censored nor not censored as a matter of policy. That is (or was, until you rewrote the policy) a statement of fact. I'm off to emplace the goatse picture. Cheers now. Dr Zen 06:10, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
You know, I could get downhearted at your accusations, but I don't. I have not rewritten any policy at all. Have fun with Mr Goatse. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 06:28, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Probably doesn't mean much, but I support the current version. -- SPUI 06:59, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
For what its worth, I think much of the dispute above between
Dr Zen and
Tony Sidaway may revolve around different possible interpretations of and ambiguities in the meaning of "Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors".
In particular it seems to me that possible interpretations include:
So perhaps this statement, now the title of the section, could be better worded.
The current text of that section (considerably different than the text as first presented above), seems to me to be more of a statement of existing policy and practices than an attempt to make new policy or to make value judgments concerning existing practices — that is to say, it is "descriptive" rather than "prescriptive" or "proscriptive". It is more in the nature of a disclaimer or warning, and as such it now seems more consistent with interpretations 2 and 3 above, and could be reworded to make this clearer. Or not. We could simply let the meaning of the title be determined by the text that follows it.
Paul August ☎ 19:44, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for that very scholarly analysis. This is an unusual document, part prescription and part description. My intention in drafting this clause was to provide a reference point so that newcomers would know that there really is no organised mechanism charged with deciding what should and should not go in on the basis of whether it might be suitable for children. I emphasized the instantaneousness of changes and the lack of scrutiny--this is a valid point because, although a lot of us do Recent Changes duty, this is a voluntary task and does not constitute a viable content censorship mechanism in the absence of a policy to remove material for the protection of minors.
My personal opinion is that, while it may be possible to combine encyclopedic intent with a policy of avoidance of material likely to harm minors, it is not necessarily desirable to do so, and in any case I have not yet seen any proposals for targeted censorship that would not violate NPOV. Then again, NPOV need not be regarded as sacrosanct, it just happens that it has been set as a primary goal for this project since the beginning. I don't regard inclusion of controversial images as necessary, but with the exception of the borderline child pornography image at lolicon (caution advised), which I personally think should probably be removed from Wikipedia if only to avoid the risk of prosecution, I have not seen anything that I consider to be particularly controversial. Even images of the primary sexual organs have proven to enjoy a very wide consensus where they have been used in an appropriate article. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 20:15, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I also have a bit of a problem with:
"Wikipedia's current policy is to include objectionable content"? I don't think we have such a policy, but if so I guess I'd better get busy ;-) Of course, I don't think this is what is trying to be said here. Overlooking that problem, a not unreasonable rewording of this text would be: "Wikipedia's policy is to follow Wikipedia's policy and the law". Unless, that is, it is Wikipedia's policy to follow the law, in which case it could be shortened even further to read: "Wikipedia's policy is to follow Wikipedia's policy". In short, I think this text, as presently written, should go. Paul August ☎ 00:04, Jan 9, 2005 (UTC)
The version that I wrote (a few days ago) is out of date. Then the content disclaimer said:
Since then it seems that some people have rewritten the policy. I'll have a look at it and see if what I said previously still applies. Feel free to amend accordingly meanwhile, because if policy has changed meanwhile clearly my summary is no longer correct. Please excuse my genuine brainfart. At the moment (last edit 04:44 on 8 Jan 2004) it still does seem to say pretty much the same thing.--
Tony Sidaway|
Talk 02:58, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
All of my objections have now been taken care of, thanks to changes made by User:Kosebamse. The current language is now fine with me. Paul August ☎ 21:45, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)
What is all this cruft??? It is obvious and utterly undeniable that Wikipedia is, in fact, censored. A moment's reflection will tell you that some images would never last on Wikipedia for more than a few minutes, and that if some misguided pathetic champion of free speech kept reverting back to it he would be banned. Please don't make me describe hypothetical images. So, I can only conclude that this "Wikipedia is not censored" entry on this page is here purely for the sake of geek cyberanarchists who need something official-looking to cite when engaged in unendingly repetitive arguments over photos of things like Autofellatio and Masturbation. I will await comments here for two days, then I will rename this section "Wikipedia is not guaranteed free of objectionable material in any given moment"... To be perfectly clear, I am referring to 1.8 on the Project Page, "Wikipedia is not censored". JDG 02:43, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
I copied this from the page:
This is like saying a natural disaster is not chaos. Wikipedia is very much anarchy in action. In fact I couldn't think of many better examples of "order without authority". Christiaan 14:45, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, my error. I've altered the header slightly to make it clearer, at least to me. See what you think. Christiaan 1:34, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Right now the article says: Wikipedia articles are not mere collections of external links. I'd like it to go farther, and say that Wikipedia is not a link repository. It's not meant to provide every possible link relevant to a subject - that's what Google and DMoz.org are for. It's also not meant to advertise someone's personal fan site.
The "External links" section of a Wikipedia article should only contain links to primary news sites or well-established fan sites which directly contribute to the factual information covered in the article. For example: the polygamy article should not link to every web site having anything to do with polygamy. The Babylon 5 article should have a link to the Babylon 5 Lurker's Guide, which has been the definitive fan site on Babylon 5 since before the series began (and has even been referenced in the series itself), but someone else who is hoping to get more traffic by linking his own B5 fan site from the article doesn't deserve a link.
"External Links" should not contain links to:
- Brian Kendig 17:07, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I dispute the neutrality of this article, thats why I put an npov sign to it. But it was removed. I want to add in this article that wikipedia is not a football squad. Because a lot of people think that wikipedia is the place for them to put football statistics. Can I put that? What is the community consensus? Faethon 06:49, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I counted 4 things that the article says Wikipedia "is not", but upon inspection of the "encyclopedia" itself, one can clearly see that it indeed "is". (anon)
Under Wikipedia is not a soapbox, Wikipedia articles are not:
Been seeing a lot of these lately, and would love to have an official consensus to point out to offenders. Can we discuss adding this to policy? — Catherine\ talk 21:40, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There is a paragraph that's been around for more than three years and which reads in its current form: Critical reviews. Biographies and articles about art works are supposed to be encyclopedia articles. Of course, critical analysis of art is welcome, if grounded in direct observations. See also Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles#Check your fiction." This wording is very unclear. What's the difference between a "critical review" and an encyclopedia article? The second sentence does not make much more sense. Why "direct observations"? I don't see see anything here that's not covered under NPOV or elsewhere in thesoapbox section, and quite frankly, I just don't understand what this is really about. Could somebody please try to enlighten me, or alternatively, agree that this paragraph is useless and should be discarded? Kosebamse 14:34, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Fine enough. But then we need a different way of expressing that concept. The language is crufty and unclear, and that's the last that such a page needs. Any ideas welcome. Thanks. Kosebamse 05:42, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Future events are prima facie unencyclopedic, because they are unverifiable until they have actually occurred. There are exceptions, but that is the rule. In particular:
I removed "Articles about books, movies, games, and software that are about to be released within the next few months should be considered advertising, unless convincingly shown otherwise" as it is a clear violation of Assume good faith. - SimonP 16:31, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)
Well, the discussion has sort of petered out again... Given the comments above, I'd like to rewrite the point that says "Unless there is enough information for a stub, such as in the case of undiscovered chemical elements," so that it no longer specifically mentions chemical elements. I want to leave that particular issue deliberately in limbo. I'd like to replace this with:
If nobody screams, I'll do it.
(Yep, it's not clear whether the number of electrons in the outermost shell of binilnilium could be called "generic." That fuzziness is deliberate). Dpbsmith (talk) 14:04, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sooner or later someone's bound to point this out: the reference to
Star Wars in connection with fictional futures is inappropriate since SW takes place A Long Time Ago in a Galaxy
Far, Far Away...
Lee M 22:36, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
I have reworded this:
Because the existing accent on "notable" struck me as quite rude, implying that people you know who have died are, "of course", not notable in any way except by sheer coincidence. I replaced it with this:
The intent is not in any way to remove the aspect of notability, merely an attempt to reword what is there. You are, of course, free to improve upon it. 82.92.119.11 20:33, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It's much better. Thank you. Please feel free to improve the language further (but note that this is a highly visible and important page so subleties of meaning may be relevant). Again, thanks. Kosebamse 05:45, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This has been nagging at me but I can't come up with a good solution.
"Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors" just doesn't seem quite right to me, because it is susceptible of being parsed as "Wikipedia is not censored, for the protection of minors" or "For the protection of minors, Wikipedia is not censored."
I keep wanting to ask "Just how does Wikipedia's lack of censorship protect minors?"
Of course, it has always bothered me that the American Cancer Society does not call itself the American Society Against Cancer.
It's no biggie, but I wonder if there's a better phrase. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:11, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If Wikipedia is not a memorial, what is? One of my work colleaques recently died in a car crash and I would like to write a Wiki memorial about her. — JIP | Talk 20:00, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
i started modifying this article to make the tone less informal. i stopped after realized that i was changing the tone of the article. i am new to wikipedia and i don't know how appropiate or inapropiate this is. any thoughts are welcome uri budnik 06:55, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
i wanted to make the above phrase "Taking discussion into articles is not allowed." but being new to wikipedia i did not want to make what may be a policy change. i was rewording some parts of the article and i settled on "Taking discussion into articles is not a good practice." i am looking for advice from more experienced wikipedians. uri budnik 06:55, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have encountered many loopholes on Wikipedia. Also, I have been in risk of being blocked for making further edits due to all these loopholes. Please add more "What Wikipedia is not" sections to help build knowledge on me. I also have been occused for Wiki-vandalism and have been messaged 40+ times about many article-related situations. Please, please detail this article up!!!!!!! IM BEGGING U! -- SuperDude 21:57, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've noticed that some people pay far too much homage to perceived rules and guidelines, and some people oppose ideas merely on the ground that the idea was not submitted by proper procedure. I believe Good Faith is more important, and an idea should be judged by its merits instead. WP is not a court of law. I've added a paragraph to reflect this, but it could use some feedback and revision. R adiant _* 09:33, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
I was sure it was one of the policies here (it is invoked on FAC and PR from time to time), but now I am looking for any such rule and can't find it anywhere. Did I imagine it? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:07, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I read this weblink: The "What Wikicities is not" article on the Wikicities website. Do you think Wikicities might outdo Wikipedia since their policy isn't as strict as Wikipedia? drop me a line if you have an answer. -- SuperDude 02:41, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
This is Wikipedia space--we don't restrict content to NPOV here (it would make it impossible to advocate policies!) Obviously inappropriate material is material not relevant to the article illustrated. I have reverted Grace Note's edit because I think it was unnecessary and it made a pithy expression of policy into an ugly, contorted circumlocution. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 06:02, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Kingturtle edited the page to state that an article on Paris shouldn't include the address of your favorite hotel. I agree, but what if the hotel itself merits an article? For example, we have articles on many of the major Las Vegas casinos. Some of these articles provided the street address of the subject of the article. The issue arises because Kingturtle's removal of the addresses from those articles was questioned on Talk:Wynn Las Vegas. This page seems as good a place as any to solicit comments from people who don't have any casino articles watchlisted. My view is that a street address is perfectly acceptable in an article on a particular building. JamesMLane 08:58, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
WP is not a place to write about your personal experiences. Should this be added to the page? We also need to mention not to use the word "I" in articles. Also PLEASE write in the 3rd person in articles. This drives me crazy, as many newbees make this mistake. I think this needs to be made clearer on this page. -- michael180 22:32, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
An important policy discussion has started concerning ways in which our content-related polices, such as NPOV, No original research and Verifiability could be better enforced. I've made a proposal to give the Arbitration Committee the ability to consult Wikipedia users who are knowledgeable in subject-areas that apply to cases before them. Such consultation is needed due to the fact that the ArbCom does not by itself have the requisite knowledge to easily tell what is NPOV, original research, or a fringe idea in every field. Please read my proposal at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/RFC#Alternate solution #9 by mav. Content subcommittee and comment. Thank you! -- mav 02:51, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Given Katie Holmes, this perhaps should be added? john k 20:16, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
We should rewrite this section to say wikipedia entries are not just collections of internal links except in the following cases...
Now which are the cases? Disambiguation pages are one case, categories another. What else? ---- Charles Stewart 02:20, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"Wikipedia is not a discussion forum or chat room (mind you, neither is Everything2, or at least it tries not to be..."
This is a non-NPOV attack on E2. What's the best way to fix it?
Twinxor 22:34, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I recently saw someone writing this on Talk:Georgia, yet I don't think this has ever been brought up before. Anything to say about this?? 66.245.26.130 14:12, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I noticed that the prohibition on recipies on Wikipedia was fairly recent, and seems to have been the cause for several deletions lately. Was that added as a result of the consensus of some discussion? I'm not really sure where these policies come from; I notice that it wasn't on the talk page for this article, and there wasn't a reference in the edit history to where a discussion had been held. Thanks. -- Creidieki 02:10, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
There was no such agreement. NEither on the mailing lists. Nor on wikipedia itself. I invite you to read the discussion here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_recipes/Delete and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3ARecipes_proposal SweetLittleFluffyThing
I am appalled at this radical decision as it limits the usability of Wikipedia because of a sister project that is known mostly for its vanity. Looking over wikicookbook I can see it is most definitely not representative of traditional recipes but a repository for every tom, dick and harry to promulgate their own culinary agendas. It is nothing like an encyclopedic cookbook. A baguette is a baguette is a baguette the recipe is almost immutable and a selection process would not be needed to decide on which recipe is representative of it because there is little deviation in baking. As to cooking, I am undecided as that is a whole other realm but standard baking recipes should be included in wikipedia not wikicookbook which seems a vanity project. Recipes help people like me a pastry chef define in our own language of kitchen chemistry the object we are talking about. Without these simple guidelines it is difficult to draw a line between an egg custard, a brulee or a flan without needlessly complicating entries. I think we should rediscuss this, or I might likely leave this project that I have just arrived at. -- Rakista 15:58, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Is the following appropriate for "What Wikipedia entries are not"?
It would sound better to me if it was adjusted to an item in the "What entries is not" section. I'll wait for comments before applying the change, since the item has a distinguished history ... ---- Charles Stewart 03:44, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I agree that Wikipedia entries should be neutral and all of this. My question is about the *process* of things. Let's take a contentious article like the Israelis and Palestinians. Or perhaps I'll call them Houyhnhnms and Yahoos. When I come to the page, I see it is written by a Yahoo, with POV language "The wretched evil Houyhnhnms persecute and kill Yahoos for no reasons, and have the degenerate habit of breaking their eggs on the big end of the egg". I am a Houyhnhnm, and I feel this is unfair so I rewrite it, perhaps taking out the adjectives wretched, evil and degenerate, and then add some negative factual information about the Yahoos. The Yahoo then comes on the page and we go back and forth.
In an ideal world, the Houyhnhnm and Yahoo will balance each other out. Perhaps even a Brobdingnagium comes around, who could care less about Houyhnhnhms and Yahoos and which end of an egg to break open, and serves as sort of a neutral peace maker.
In some ways you could say numerically, the Houyhnhnm and Yahoo are a 1 and a -1. NPOV is 0. Houyhnhnm knows eveything good about Houyhnhnms and everything bad about Yahoos. Yahoo knows everything bad about Houyhnhnms and everything good about Yahoos. When they both add their comments to the page, and strip away POV language, baseless assertions and so forth, the article becomes more balanced. The -1 added to the 1 equals 0 - NPOV.
However, if the Houyhnhnm starts out as a 0, and the Yahoo continues as a -1, then that back and forth will become a -0.5. The page will become unbalanced because the Yahoo is being 100% pro-Yahoo and anti-Houyhnhnm, and the Yahoo is being 50/50 on things. The page becomes unbalanced, overpraising Yahoos, demonizing Houyhnhnms.
I hope people see the point I'm trying to make. The article should be 0 - NPOV. But the more biased the other side is, the more biased your side has to be just to get the article to the middle, to NPOV.
I think rule #6 is kind of vague and I'm not sure exactly what it means. Or more the question is - how does one be NPOV when others are not committed to NPOV? Ruy Lopez 23:29, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Wikicities dosen't have as strict of a policy as Wikipedia. Would it be OK if people put external links on Wikipedia articles for propoganda articles on Wikicities. If it is, mention it as an exception to the WWIN policy. -- SuperDude 23:58, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
I would like to make it policy that wikipedia is not a memorial service for people unless their death in and of itself was proveably significant (ie. caused new laws to be created etc.). This, of course, does not apply to people who merited a wikipedia article in life. Oberiko 21:06, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Oh no, the barnstar! Ashiibaka tlk 02:43, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I have been doing a lot of thinking about wikipedia and fancruft, what is encylopedic and what isn't. I feel that we need to have the policy "wikipedia is not cliff notes", in the same way as "wikipedia is not a dictionary". Obvious its ok to use a definition or plot summary within an article, but when an article is only that and looks like it can only be that, then it should be vfd. This instantly solves to me the fancruft problem, and helps ensure the encyclopedic nature of wikipedia. Thoughts?
Let me explain again: my proposed rule is this: In the same way "dictdef" articles are deleted now if they contain solely a dictionary definition and seem like they will contain no more then that, articles which simply summarize the plot or plot elements of anything (such as an article about the workings of a tie fighter) would be deleted too. Obviously its ok to use plot summaries, just as it is ok to use definitions, yet an article consisting solely of that and appearing to be not likely more, should be vfd. This is the best way to solve the fancruft problem.
Propose:
Perhaps a better name for this section would be: Wikipedia is not a pile of facts. I think that the point that we should be getting at is that we should be providing information that is useful to people who are consulting an encyclopaedia: it should be the kind of information that wikipedia users might be after, and it should be provided in a way that the interested user is likely to find it. The general point is controversial, I think, though, isn't it? The people who are arguing that wikipedia is not a paper encyclopaedia and should be treated as a different sort of enterprise are arguing exactly that if information is interesting for somebody then it doesn't hurt to make it available. I think that actually providing examples of what this policy excludes is necessary, and until we do and have a consensus on it, then it should not be policy. I propose deleting the item. ---- Charles Stewart 09:14, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Let me explain what I think about the sentences in the paragraph under discussion.
And in response to Dpbsmith, I don't know your attitude in these matters, but every inclusionist always argues that "Wiki is not paper". While that can hardly be denied, the implied consequence "...and therefore I can stick into it whatever I like" is what angers us deletionists, or as I would put it, encyclopedists, because that implication is rarely ever enunciated. And if we don't make it clear that this is an encyclopedia and we Wikipedians reserve the right to decide what befits an encyclopedia, every bored kid with a computer will continue to drop their random nonsense here. That already happens, Wikipedia is currently being stuffed with worthless junk of every description. We should not surrender the chance to put a clear-cut definition of what Wikipedia is not on right here where every reader can see it. Kosebamse 11:35, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Please review my proposal of a revised version. Note that I have not much changed the content, but rearranged it in a more logical fashion, rewritten a few sentences, added a few explanations, and raised an item from the second list to the rank of a "What Wikipedia is not" topic. The proposed version is at Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not/Rewrite December 2004, and I would suggest to discuss it here, not on a talk page of its own. Thanks. Kosebamse 14:45, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Methinks there should be a chance for some more refinement, say until after christmas or new year, and then mention it on the pump, get some more discussion and hopefully move it to project page then. How about that? Kosebamse 07:13, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well done, Dan, looks much better now. And by the way, I think we should not update the note at the top of the draft; there will be changes done (and possibly reverted) on the original page until (if ever) the rewrite goes live, and there is no need to incorporate those changes until then. Merry Christmas (or whatever you are celebrating), Kosebamse 11:42, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'll put a notice on the pump and ask people for comments and/or improvement. Suggest to wait for another week or so and then move the rewritten version to Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not if there are no objections. Kosebamse 11:21, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It's very nice, very clean looking. I like that, "The Wikipedia is not a theater of war". -- AllyUnion (talk) 19:07, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
As there seem to be no serious objections, I'll move the rewritten version to Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not shortly. I have updated the draft to reflect the current status. Note that the version of the "censorship" item is that which is currently on the live page, so if there are any unresolved disagreements, please correct that/discuss below. Best regards and happy editing, Kosebamse 12:49, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I'm getting a bit tired of seeing pages that consist of sequences of facts tacked on sequentially and incrementally by sequences of contributors. Not only are such would-be articles stylistically inconsistent and devoid of structure, they also risk duplication of information and seeming contradictions. (I addressed the seriousness of this issue in a recent essay.) I'd like to see this mentioned here. -- Smack 20:01, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
By the way, how many of you have seen Wikipedia:Importance and the closely related Wikipedia:informative? I really like those pages and together, their definition of what should be considered encyclopeadic. I'd like to see it go from Proposed to Offical policy. Maybe it could be linked to in some way from this page. Dan100 22:43, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
Articles on video game topics are not inherently unencyclopedic, but many are crossing the line into "how to" articles, some mere collections of statistics about the monster in question -- not merely uninteresting to anyone except a fan, but incomprehensible to anyone except a fan. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:45, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a biographical dictionary, but entries about notable individuals are acceptable. To me the latter is the primary meaning of "biographical dictionary", and Wikipedia encompasses a vast biographical dictionary. It would be clearer to say something like, "Wikipedia is not a repository for biographies of non-notable people. Biographical entries are only appropriate for individuals who have achievements which are of interest to a range of people beyond their personal associates." Whoops, I forgot to sign this the last time I was here. Wincoote 07:31, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
What about categorisation of pages as (put very crudely) adult, then allowing filtering? That is not censorship, though it would facilitate it and encourage wider participation.
If I didn't want to let my kids read about non-creationist theories, I could
a) Ban them from using the wikipedia at all b) Ban them from using a class of pages in the wikipedia c) Allow them to use a set of categories of pages d) Allow them to see specific pages I have chosen and checked myself
a) and d) are available now, but b) and c), NPOV black and white listing, would be better than a), no? Also, many people wouldn't have the time, energy or inclination to do d), though some do use filtered ISPs.
I raise this here as I couldn't see anything about it in the text below (which should be summarised, preferably by the participants, who I've listed below). Mr. Jones 13:13, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
Participants
Please don't rewrite the policy without indulging in discussion. You know that this is being discussed elsewhere. Trying to rewrite policy to back your POV is not constructive to that debate at all. Dr Zen 00:13, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The statement you removed (added on 24 December by SPUI with minor edits by me and 61.255.27.5) wasn't policy, it was a statement of fact, as follows:
If you don't believe the above is factual, could you please indicate which parts of it you believe to be either interpretation or contrafactual. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 01:05, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I was being bold by adding it, after a short discussion on IRC; it was only later that I realized stuff to be added was discussed first on the talk page. -- SPUI 01:10, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Tony, I don't think it should be included at all. It's not necessary. You've stuck it in purely as advocacy. Please don't. You have to accept that your idea of what is acceptable in an encyclopaedia is not necessarily shared by all. There has been very little de facto censorship (except, as we've discussed, that we decide each day what articles will and will not include and that in itself is a form of censorship). The very nature of a wiki is that they are not censored in the way this suggests they might be, so, please, don't try to make your view policy by the back door. The truth of the matter is that the encyclopaedia can be censored for the sake of minors if there is a consensus to do so. (The goatse picture has, so far as I know, been censored by consensus. I note this view (my emphasis): "My opinion is that a link to the site (and its mirrors) will suffice. I don't see any gain in having WP host images that may well lead to boycotts from certain users, censorship from sensitive groups (eg. an inclusion on various schools' internet filters) and will almost certainly undermine people's trust in the site. Why should these images be on the site? --Fangz 03:08, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)") That there is unlikely to be a consensus to do so in most cases doesn't change its being possible. On that basis, I oppose this addition.
SPUI, I'm a big fan of being bold but I'm also a fan of not trying to get your own way by a subterfuge. This gets put in and then anyone who suggests that we should have inclusive solutions for images is likely to have it shoved in their faces. Dr Zen 01:40, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Actually, the inclusion of images was almost an afterthought; the reason I thought to add it was several people complaining about my use of the word 'fuck' in edit summaries (not for personal attacks, but for example "fuck, I was wrong, adding the correct data"), one specifically stating that I should 'keep Wikipedia G-rated'. Maybe it should just not mention images at all. -- SPUI 02:11, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I think something along the lines of the above should be included. We should not be censoring on the basis of protecting the children (or anyone else) from harmful material. WRT the goatse picture, potential harmfulness is not necessary to reach consensus on not including it -- it is presumably copyrighted, after all. Tuf-Kat 02:17, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)
DrZen, I did not insert that piece. Please be careful before you accuse people of engaging in advocacy. As a matter of fact, Wikipedia is not censored so as to be "suitable for minors" (whatever that might be taken to mean). This isn't every likely to change. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 02:22, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
(Some of the following edited to remove personal attacks)
Okay. You say: You do seem in fact to be advocating a Wikipedia that is not censored in this particular way. No, I'm stating that as a matter of fact it is not censored in a manner to make it suitable for reading by children. It never has been. It's extremely unlikely that it ever will be.
You say: I am sorry though that I seem to have made the assumption that you were involved in the IRC discussion that prompted its inclusion.
I have not used IRC for about four years. Moreover I have no idea who this SPUI chap is.
In your reference to censorship, which I don't deny happens, you seem to have ignored that fact that what SPUI actually wrote (slightly refactored by me to relegate some US-only terminology, was this:
"Wikipedia is not censored for the 'protection of minors' ( G-rated)."
This is a factual statement. It is not advocacy. It is not a claim that wikipedia is not censored. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 03:03, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
You say "It is not a "matter of fact" that it is not censored." I agree. Again this does not contradict the section that you have removed. You what? You've just said it is a matter of fact that it is not censored and that what you have put is a statement of that matter of fact. Now you are agreeing that it is not a matter of fact that it is not censored. I'm beginning to feel you are at best taking the piss, and at worst simply trolling me because I disagree with you.
Taking your points in turn:
1. Wikipedia is censored as its members see fit Absolutely. And that censorship does not extend to G-Rating the site.
2. Wikipedia is censored in the way stated IF the community desires it. Wikipedia is not G-rated. This is a statement of fact.
3. Even if you edit disputed text, it is still a revert, Tony. Don't let's play that game. Do not again falsely accuse me of reverting. Do not again falsely accuse me of playing games.
First version: Wikipedia is not censored for the 'protection of minors' ( G-rated). Articles should not contain needless usage of profanity or explicit images, but if the use of the word or image adds to the article, most editors believe it should be kept (see Talk:Clitoris for debate relating to an image). Guidelines for internal communications are at Wikipedia:Civility; the intent and meaning of the message is much more important than the words used.
Second version: Wikipedia is not censored for the 'protection of minors' ( G-rated). Firstly, anyone can edit an article and the results are displayed instantaneously, so we cannot guarantee that a child will see or read nothing objectionable. Secondly, Wikipedia has no organized system for the removal of material that might be thought likely to harm minors.
4. You've just said it is a matter of fact that it is not censored. No I have not.
5. It has been censored on the basis you say it should not be and I have given an example of this. I have not stated how it should and should not be censored. I have stated correctly that it is not censored for the protection of minors.
6. If the community does not agree, that is perfectly okay, but you cannot a priori delimit the range of views that are permissible. I have not done so. I have simply stated, correctly, that Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors. The fact that it could be or even that editors have decided to do so with specific parts of it in the past does not alter the fact that, as a whole, it is not.
I shall now submit a third version of the clause making it clear that this refers to the whole of the site. Blankfaze has reverted. I'll stick with what we have for now. --
Tony Sidaway|
Talk 05:54, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I deplore your rewriting the policy to something that is entirely antiwiki but I am fed up with fighting bigots and POV pushers for today. Wikipedia is neither censored nor not censored as a matter of policy. That is (or was, until you rewrote the policy) a statement of fact. I'm off to emplace the goatse picture. Cheers now. Dr Zen 06:10, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
You know, I could get downhearted at your accusations, but I don't. I have not rewritten any policy at all. Have fun with Mr Goatse. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 06:28, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Probably doesn't mean much, but I support the current version. -- SPUI 06:59, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
For what its worth, I think much of the dispute above between
Dr Zen and
Tony Sidaway may revolve around different possible interpretations of and ambiguities in the meaning of "Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors".
In particular it seems to me that possible interpretations include:
So perhaps this statement, now the title of the section, could be better worded.
The current text of that section (considerably different than the text as first presented above), seems to me to be more of a statement of existing policy and practices than an attempt to make new policy or to make value judgments concerning existing practices — that is to say, it is "descriptive" rather than "prescriptive" or "proscriptive". It is more in the nature of a disclaimer or warning, and as such it now seems more consistent with interpretations 2 and 3 above, and could be reworded to make this clearer. Or not. We could simply let the meaning of the title be determined by the text that follows it.
Paul August ☎ 19:44, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for that very scholarly analysis. This is an unusual document, part prescription and part description. My intention in drafting this clause was to provide a reference point so that newcomers would know that there really is no organised mechanism charged with deciding what should and should not go in on the basis of whether it might be suitable for children. I emphasized the instantaneousness of changes and the lack of scrutiny--this is a valid point because, although a lot of us do Recent Changes duty, this is a voluntary task and does not constitute a viable content censorship mechanism in the absence of a policy to remove material for the protection of minors.
My personal opinion is that, while it may be possible to combine encyclopedic intent with a policy of avoidance of material likely to harm minors, it is not necessarily desirable to do so, and in any case I have not yet seen any proposals for targeted censorship that would not violate NPOV. Then again, NPOV need not be regarded as sacrosanct, it just happens that it has been set as a primary goal for this project since the beginning. I don't regard inclusion of controversial images as necessary, but with the exception of the borderline child pornography image at lolicon (caution advised), which I personally think should probably be removed from Wikipedia if only to avoid the risk of prosecution, I have not seen anything that I consider to be particularly controversial. Even images of the primary sexual organs have proven to enjoy a very wide consensus where they have been used in an appropriate article. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 20:15, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I also have a bit of a problem with:
"Wikipedia's current policy is to include objectionable content"? I don't think we have such a policy, but if so I guess I'd better get busy ;-) Of course, I don't think this is what is trying to be said here. Overlooking that problem, a not unreasonable rewording of this text would be: "Wikipedia's policy is to follow Wikipedia's policy and the law". Unless, that is, it is Wikipedia's policy to follow the law, in which case it could be shortened even further to read: "Wikipedia's policy is to follow Wikipedia's policy". In short, I think this text, as presently written, should go. Paul August ☎ 00:04, Jan 9, 2005 (UTC)
The version that I wrote (a few days ago) is out of date. Then the content disclaimer said:
Since then it seems that some people have rewritten the policy. I'll have a look at it and see if what I said previously still applies. Feel free to amend accordingly meanwhile, because if policy has changed meanwhile clearly my summary is no longer correct. Please excuse my genuine brainfart. At the moment (last edit 04:44 on 8 Jan 2004) it still does seem to say pretty much the same thing.--
Tony Sidaway|
Talk 02:58, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
All of my objections have now been taken care of, thanks to changes made by User:Kosebamse. The current language is now fine with me. Paul August ☎ 21:45, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)
What is all this cruft??? It is obvious and utterly undeniable that Wikipedia is, in fact, censored. A moment's reflection will tell you that some images would never last on Wikipedia for more than a few minutes, and that if some misguided pathetic champion of free speech kept reverting back to it he would be banned. Please don't make me describe hypothetical images. So, I can only conclude that this "Wikipedia is not censored" entry on this page is here purely for the sake of geek cyberanarchists who need something official-looking to cite when engaged in unendingly repetitive arguments over photos of things like Autofellatio and Masturbation. I will await comments here for two days, then I will rename this section "Wikipedia is not guaranteed free of objectionable material in any given moment"... To be perfectly clear, I am referring to 1.8 on the Project Page, "Wikipedia is not censored". JDG 02:43, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
I copied this from the page:
This is like saying a natural disaster is not chaos. Wikipedia is very much anarchy in action. In fact I couldn't think of many better examples of "order without authority". Christiaan 14:45, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, my error. I've altered the header slightly to make it clearer, at least to me. See what you think. Christiaan 1:34, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Right now the article says: Wikipedia articles are not mere collections of external links. I'd like it to go farther, and say that Wikipedia is not a link repository. It's not meant to provide every possible link relevant to a subject - that's what Google and DMoz.org are for. It's also not meant to advertise someone's personal fan site.
The "External links" section of a Wikipedia article should only contain links to primary news sites or well-established fan sites which directly contribute to the factual information covered in the article. For example: the polygamy article should not link to every web site having anything to do with polygamy. The Babylon 5 article should have a link to the Babylon 5 Lurker's Guide, which has been the definitive fan site on Babylon 5 since before the series began (and has even been referenced in the series itself), but someone else who is hoping to get more traffic by linking his own B5 fan site from the article doesn't deserve a link.
"External Links" should not contain links to:
- Brian Kendig 17:07, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I dispute the neutrality of this article, thats why I put an npov sign to it. But it was removed. I want to add in this article that wikipedia is not a football squad. Because a lot of people think that wikipedia is the place for them to put football statistics. Can I put that? What is the community consensus? Faethon 06:49, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I counted 4 things that the article says Wikipedia "is not", but upon inspection of the "encyclopedia" itself, one can clearly see that it indeed "is". (anon)
Under Wikipedia is not a soapbox, Wikipedia articles are not:
Been seeing a lot of these lately, and would love to have an official consensus to point out to offenders. Can we discuss adding this to policy? — Catherine\ talk 21:40, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There is a paragraph that's been around for more than three years and which reads in its current form: Critical reviews. Biographies and articles about art works are supposed to be encyclopedia articles. Of course, critical analysis of art is welcome, if grounded in direct observations. See also Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles#Check your fiction." This wording is very unclear. What's the difference between a "critical review" and an encyclopedia article? The second sentence does not make much more sense. Why "direct observations"? I don't see see anything here that's not covered under NPOV or elsewhere in thesoapbox section, and quite frankly, I just don't understand what this is really about. Could somebody please try to enlighten me, or alternatively, agree that this paragraph is useless and should be discarded? Kosebamse 14:34, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Fine enough. But then we need a different way of expressing that concept. The language is crufty and unclear, and that's the last that such a page needs. Any ideas welcome. Thanks. Kosebamse 05:42, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Future events are prima facie unencyclopedic, because they are unverifiable until they have actually occurred. There are exceptions, but that is the rule. In particular:
I removed "Articles about books, movies, games, and software that are about to be released within the next few months should be considered advertising, unless convincingly shown otherwise" as it is a clear violation of Assume good faith. - SimonP 16:31, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)
Well, the discussion has sort of petered out again... Given the comments above, I'd like to rewrite the point that says "Unless there is enough information for a stub, such as in the case of undiscovered chemical elements," so that it no longer specifically mentions chemical elements. I want to leave that particular issue deliberately in limbo. I'd like to replace this with:
If nobody screams, I'll do it.
(Yep, it's not clear whether the number of electrons in the outermost shell of binilnilium could be called "generic." That fuzziness is deliberate). Dpbsmith (talk) 14:04, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sooner or later someone's bound to point this out: the reference to
Star Wars in connection with fictional futures is inappropriate since SW takes place A Long Time Ago in a Galaxy
Far, Far Away...
Lee M 22:36, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
I have reworded this:
Because the existing accent on "notable" struck me as quite rude, implying that people you know who have died are, "of course", not notable in any way except by sheer coincidence. I replaced it with this:
The intent is not in any way to remove the aspect of notability, merely an attempt to reword what is there. You are, of course, free to improve upon it. 82.92.119.11 20:33, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It's much better. Thank you. Please feel free to improve the language further (but note that this is a highly visible and important page so subleties of meaning may be relevant). Again, thanks. Kosebamse 05:45, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This has been nagging at me but I can't come up with a good solution.
"Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors" just doesn't seem quite right to me, because it is susceptible of being parsed as "Wikipedia is not censored, for the protection of minors" or "For the protection of minors, Wikipedia is not censored."
I keep wanting to ask "Just how does Wikipedia's lack of censorship protect minors?"
Of course, it has always bothered me that the American Cancer Society does not call itself the American Society Against Cancer.
It's no biggie, but I wonder if there's a better phrase. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:11, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If Wikipedia is not a memorial, what is? One of my work colleaques recently died in a car crash and I would like to write a Wiki memorial about her. — JIP | Talk 20:00, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
i started modifying this article to make the tone less informal. i stopped after realized that i was changing the tone of the article. i am new to wikipedia and i don't know how appropiate or inapropiate this is. any thoughts are welcome uri budnik 06:55, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
i wanted to make the above phrase "Taking discussion into articles is not allowed." but being new to wikipedia i did not want to make what may be a policy change. i was rewording some parts of the article and i settled on "Taking discussion into articles is not a good practice." i am looking for advice from more experienced wikipedians. uri budnik 06:55, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have encountered many loopholes on Wikipedia. Also, I have been in risk of being blocked for making further edits due to all these loopholes. Please add more "What Wikipedia is not" sections to help build knowledge on me. I also have been occused for Wiki-vandalism and have been messaged 40+ times about many article-related situations. Please, please detail this article up!!!!!!! IM BEGGING U! -- SuperDude 21:57, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've noticed that some people pay far too much homage to perceived rules and guidelines, and some people oppose ideas merely on the ground that the idea was not submitted by proper procedure. I believe Good Faith is more important, and an idea should be judged by its merits instead. WP is not a court of law. I've added a paragraph to reflect this, but it could use some feedback and revision. R adiant _* 09:33, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
I was sure it was one of the policies here (it is invoked on FAC and PR from time to time), but now I am looking for any such rule and can't find it anywhere. Did I imagine it? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:07, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I read this weblink: The "What Wikicities is not" article on the Wikicities website. Do you think Wikicities might outdo Wikipedia since their policy isn't as strict as Wikipedia? drop me a line if you have an answer. -- SuperDude 02:41, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
This is Wikipedia space--we don't restrict content to NPOV here (it would make it impossible to advocate policies!) Obviously inappropriate material is material not relevant to the article illustrated. I have reverted Grace Note's edit because I think it was unnecessary and it made a pithy expression of policy into an ugly, contorted circumlocution. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 06:02, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Kingturtle edited the page to state that an article on Paris shouldn't include the address of your favorite hotel. I agree, but what if the hotel itself merits an article? For example, we have articles on many of the major Las Vegas casinos. Some of these articles provided the street address of the subject of the article. The issue arises because Kingturtle's removal of the addresses from those articles was questioned on Talk:Wynn Las Vegas. This page seems as good a place as any to solicit comments from people who don't have any casino articles watchlisted. My view is that a street address is perfectly acceptable in an article on a particular building. JamesMLane 08:58, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
WP is not a place to write about your personal experiences. Should this be added to the page? We also need to mention not to use the word "I" in articles. Also PLEASE write in the 3rd person in articles. This drives me crazy, as many newbees make this mistake. I think this needs to be made clearer on this page. -- michael180 22:32, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
An important policy discussion has started concerning ways in which our content-related polices, such as NPOV, No original research and Verifiability could be better enforced. I've made a proposal to give the Arbitration Committee the ability to consult Wikipedia users who are knowledgeable in subject-areas that apply to cases before them. Such consultation is needed due to the fact that the ArbCom does not by itself have the requisite knowledge to easily tell what is NPOV, original research, or a fringe idea in every field. Please read my proposal at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/RFC#Alternate solution #9 by mav. Content subcommittee and comment. Thank you! -- mav 02:51, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Given Katie Holmes, this perhaps should be added? john k 20:16, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)