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Joe Montana is one of the greatest quarterbacks in NFL history. He won four super-bowls and was an extremely large figure in sports history. In addition, there aren't any modern quarterbacks on the American football list. There should be at least one modern quarterback in that list, and I feel that Joe Montana should be there.
I actually think the number of American footballers looks about right (it certainly doesn't look overrepresented when you compare it to the number of baseball, basketball, tennis and ice hockey players we've got) and Joe Montana's certainly a very good choice to represent the sport, so I'd support a swap for one of the other figures. Cobblet ( talk) 08:34, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
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Had this on my mind for a while, I believe writing to be one of humanity's most significant "inventions", we have placed it in the vital 100, therefore I think history of writing to be vital at the 10,000 level, more vital than other histories we have. Things we have history for at present include radio, communication (almost), aviation, maritime etc but the articles for their parent topics are not in the vital 100 like writing is; others have shown an interest in History of writing too which has pushed me to suggest it. Carl wev 18:16, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Should all Level 2 articles for which there is a suitable history article have their "history of" articles listed at this level? Many of them already are but this would mean adding history of construction, history of the family, history of engineering, history of telecommunication, history of logic, history of energy, history of money, history of geometry and history of clothing. There might have been a few that I missed. Communication itself is an article which has a strong case to be added at Level 2. I still need to think about this proposal. Gizza ( t)( c) 02:28, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
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Having the Murray River on the list without also having the Darling River is like listing the Mississippi River but not the Missouri River. When combined together the Murray-Darling is the longest river in Oceania and the fifteenth longest river in the world. It makes no sense to list 69 rivers and tributaries without including this one.
Really, Maunus? Why not? Frankly, I find this kind of laconic response frustrating, since it does nothing to build consensus. It ought to be self-evident that this is a more significant river than several others we've listed. Also I daresay this is a more important article to have than at least 500 of the biographies we list. Cobblet ( talk) 03:23, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
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It is not architecturally notable. Its exterior is is entirely un-notable, having no facade, no main door and no decoration except for the guards' walkway near the top, which has caused more trouble as a water-cathment than it is worth. The value of the building lies in its four stages of decoration, which should be individually listed as vital articles in the appropriate categories:
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Why don't we just move this under Visual arts then? Cobblet ( talk) 21:09, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
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This is a radical proposal. Two of these works are not architecture. Only one, the Great Pyramid of Giza, still exists. Of the others, fragments of the Mausoleum of Harlicarnassus exist. The greater part of what is written about all the proposed deletions is speculation. I propose that the article Seven Wonders of the Ancient World is retained.
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I would put all 7 wonders in their own category, regardless on the type of wonder it is. That included the Great Pyramid of Giza. PointsofNoReturn ( talk) 15:31, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
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Brunelleschi. The building of the dome changed the role of the architect forever. No wider dome was built until the Modern era. He did what others thought impossible.
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How many examples of Christian churches in Western Europe do we really need? We already have three (Chartres, Notre Dame and St. Peter's) and Amandajm is proposing the addition of ten more. However, outstanding examples of church architecture elsewhere are being ignored ( St. Vitus Cathedral, Saint Basil's Cathedral, the churches of Lalibela or Ouro Preto) and we also have no examples of architecturally significant abbeys or monasteries ( Mount Athos, Mont Saint-Michel, Westminster Abbey). Even worse, it's self-evident that representation of other religious architectures is severely lacking. While I agree the Architecture section needs expansion, much greater discretion needs to be exercised in our selections (and attention needs to be paid to secular architecture as well) if we're not to end up with the same issues of balance that we've been trying to fix in other sections. Cobblet ( talk) 05:57, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
To consider your suggestions individually:
Thank you for your feedback on my suggestions – we need more expert input and your comments are well taken. I agree the most important works in the history of architecture in Christian Europe should be included and Florence's cathedral ought to qualify as such. But in an absence of any discussion of architectural works from other religions, it's impossible for me to figure out how many cathedrals we really should have, and I oppose adding any more until we have such a discussion. Like Elekhh, I think we should be concentrating on adding more styles than adding individual buildings. I'm sorry for being so obstinate but the first architectural styles to be added to the list were also European, so this is becoming a real problem. I see there's support for adding the Alhambra; I'd be curious to see whether people would also support adding notable mosques like Umayyad Mosque, Selimiye Mosque, Jameh Mosque of Isfahan and Great Mosque of Djenné (I'm just as ignorant of Islamic architecture as I am of Christian, but am trying to pick examples representing different styles and time periods within it); or notable Southeast Asian temples besides Angkor like Bagan and Borobudur. By the way, my understanding is that St. Basil's and Red Square are adjacent to the Kremlin and not actually part of the citadel, and our article on the Kremlin only mentions St. Basil's in passing. Cobblet ( talk) 08:09, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
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of unique importance as a work of late Byzantine architecture
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Abbott Suger's royal church. He rebuilt the choir and ambulatory to combine all the burgeoning elements of Gothic architecture. It is an icon of French architecture, and crucial in the development of the Gothic style.
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The most significant Gothic building in Germany. Its exquisite Medieval choir has the largest height to width ratio of any medieval church. Its west end (not completed to the original plan until the 19th century) has the tallest paired church towers in the world.
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The supreme masterpiece in a collection of Early Christian/ Byzantine buildings of Ravenna and one of the most architecturally significant buildings in Italy.
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Cobblet, if you are opposing this, then you obviously know nothing whatsoever about the building, but are simply opposing it on the grounds that it is a church and in Italy. Amandajm ( talk) 08:21, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
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With Pisa Cathedral, it is one of the greatest Romanesque buildings in the world. It is a building of extraordinary magnificence and character. Moreover, it has the first ribbed vault, the first pointed arched vault and the earliest flying buttresses. The significance of this building is not reflected in its article, to which I should turn my attention in the near future.
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This precinct includes Pisa Cathedral, the leaning tower, the Baptistry and the Campo Santo ( enclosed burial ground) The group is of unique importance as a "matching set". The cathedral is the greatest Romanesque building south of the Alps. The famous Leaning Tower of Pisa is the finest of all the many freestanding Romanesque towers in Italy. The Baptistery is renowned not only for its architecture but for its acoustic qualities. As an incidental, the buildings are closely associated with Galileo and his experiments.
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Similar overlap exists between the Parthenon and the Acropolis of Athens. Is this something we should fix? Cobblet ( talk) 07:09, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
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One of the most significant examples of Romanesque architecture. Amandajm ( talk) 10:38, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
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Discussion Speyer v. Durham- I think there is room for both. They are very different. Amandajm ( talk) 09:28, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
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Palladio's much imitated masterpiece.
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The city Ur is listed in the history section so adding this will lead to overlap. Perhaps we could have a generic article on Step pyramids instead. Adding the Ziggurat won't be the worse case of overlap on the list but I will need to think about it a bit more. Gizza ( t)( c) 03:19, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
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Why don't we have any articles delineating music by place? We have Latin genres, but we don't have music of Latin America. We have American genres but we don't have Music of the United States p b p 16:12, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
I definitely support the intention of this proposal. Increasing geographic diversity will represent what is vital in the world of music better. I'm not sure if the best way of doing it is to add general musical overview articles or specific music genres from different parts of the world that have been the most influential and popular. I chose the middle path when I suggested Indian classical music, which has many genres (Hindustani, Carnatic, devotional) but doesn't capture the majority of Indian musical tradition (various folk genres and modern genres).
One problem with some of the general articles is that they say so little of substance and can become list-like. Taking music of Africa as an example, there are 54 countries and 1.1 billion people on the continent. There could be 100 significant genres in Africa. While a group of countries in one region might have musical similarities, there is nothing remotely common throughout Africa. The musical tradition and history in Egypt is radically different from South Africa. OTOH, an article on a dominant and influential genre provides valuable and in-depth information. The reader will learn a lot more from it. But then it means a lot of parts of Africa will miss out. It's a tough decision to make. Gizza ( t)( c) 13:59, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
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Legalism was the guiding philosophy of Shi Huangdi, the first emperor of the Qin Dynasty. It is the only philosophy within Chinese Philosophy that hasn't been added yet. Legalism was used to terrorize the people during the Qin Dynasty and is important as an ancient form of totalitarianism.
While it did influence Chinese political thought as much as Confucianism and Taoism, it's far from being the "only other Chinese philosophy". I'd support adding it, but I think we should be adding Chinese philosophy and Hundred Schools of Thought first, and perhaps Neo-Confucianism should go in before it as well. Cobblet ( talk) 22:46, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
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One of the most well-known symbols of humankind. Notorious due to Nazi use, but religiously important in Indian religions. Ancient usage throughout Asia and Europe.
Are there many other religious and polictical symbols on VA? I noticed that Om is on the list while Cross isn't. The Swastika would definitely be up there among the most vital of them. It has been used historically throughout many different regions of the world. Gizza ( t)( c) 10:49, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
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Numismatics is the collecting hobby with by far the longest history. Perhaps we could use the general hobby rather than listing a second specific example, which is also covered in postage stamp. We don't seem to list other equally notable examples like antiques or trading cards.
I was a little surprised not to find hobby listed, but most of the things it lists are already on the list or are currently being proposed, and I suppose there isn't really much more to say about the subject that hasn't been said elsewhere (e.g. in leisure or recreation). Incidentally, I don't really buy the distinction between numismatics and coin collecting; the distinction seems to have been invented so that more serious collectors can scoff at less serious collectors. Cobblet ( talk) 09:49, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
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Per Cobblet's suggestion above. We have a number of specific hobbies, but not Hobby itself. p b p 16:30, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
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Per Cobblet's suggestion above. p b p 16:30, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
On the "widespread" comment, they're quite widely used in Japan, and also in Europe. Trading card can apply to collectible card games (Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Magic: The Gathering) as well as baseball cards. p b p 05:25, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
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There are too many specific currencies on the list. The fundamental concepts in international finance (such as exchange rate above) should replace them. Rupee refers to the currencies of multiple countries but none of them are the among the top 15 traded currencies in the world. The US Dollar, Euro, Yen and Pound Sterling occupy the top four while the Renminbi is ninth and growing. Peso would be similar in importance to Rupee but neither are vital.
International trade is another big omission. Globalization is listed on Level 3 so the driving factor of globalization should be on Level 4. There are other big gaps. Stock is more important than all of the listed stock exchanges. Adding derivative (finance) along with stock will mean all three broad types of financial securities will be listed (we already have debt). Opportunity cost, profit, market failure and comparative advantage are all missing. One of either economic growth or gross domestic product also has a very strong case in being added. Gizza ( t)( c) 03:14, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
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This is an important Hindu festival that has spread to other regions of South Asia. Celebrations are also scattered around the world.
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Diwali is a sacred holiday for Hindus. It is a national holiday in India and other nations in Southeast Asia. In fact, it is one of the most important holidays for Hindus.
As a festival considered sacred by three religions (Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism), Diwali is an official holiday in multiple countries including many outside South Asia. Comparing it to the other holidays listed, it is definitely vital. Still have to think about Holi. I'm learning towards support but we should determine how many holidays in total we should roughly have. Gizza ( t)( c) 12:14, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
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One of the most sacred holidays on the Muslim calendar. It marks the end of Ramadan and consists of a massive feast. It is celebrated by Muslims around the world.
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The foundational work of the civil law tradition - the main source of the Roman law it was built on. Contains the Code of Justinian, the Digest of Justinian, and Justinian's Institutes. This codification of Roman law has had huge influence, not just during the Roman Empire, but right up to the present day. Neljack ( talk) 04:38, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
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It seems welfare may be more popular than welfare state, so I'll open this one too, same rational as welfare state above. Carl wev 12:26, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
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Trade unions have had a huge political, social and economic impact. Neljack ( talk) 07:39, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
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Meteorology contains 50 articles but this is missing, although attempted since ancient times, more accurate in modern times with modern science and computers. Has effect on travel, tourism, business, agriculture, military, shipping and safety (like predicting large storms). Appears as a common feature on TV with news or in newspapers. Meteorology is the general study of the atmosphere not just weather forecasting. Carl wev 13:10, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
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As academic fields these are essentially just branches of meteorology: I think they're too specific. Atmospheric chemistry also overlaps with environmental chemistry which is on the list. We also already list atmospheric sciences.
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We have nothing to cover concepts like air pollutants and greenhouse gases, smog, or the effect of air quality on human health – all problems that have plagued humanity since industrialization.
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If we include air pollution I believe we should include water pollution too, it is almost as significant and also an important topic, and something that affects millions of people. Carl wev 12:32, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, litter and soil contamination look like good adds. Maybe we need a section specifically about human impact on the environment and environmentalism. It's an interdisciplinary field so it could go in several places, but since we're talking about human impact I'd put it in the social sciences. Cobblet ( talk) 04:32, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
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I think the branches of oceanography ( ocean chemistry, marine biology, marine geology) can be covered by oceanography itself. I don't think we need to list too many interdisciplinary sciences, and we should prioritize listing broader fields first (we're missing stuff like environmental studies). Cobblet ( talk) 23:18, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
Actually, User:PointsofNoReturn, none of them are on the list. Which is why physical oceanography sticks out like a sore thumb to me. Cobblet ( talk) 00:29, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
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As a type of water or ice black ice is not vital, over half the article is written from a traffic POV, as a traffic topic, there are far more vital topics like road surface, traffic lights, either way, it can go, ground water is much better Carl wev 18:54, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
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Another swap of a non-vital article (a butte is a small mesa, which is also on the list) for a vital one.
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Swap in the environmental issue for the chemical that's being phased out because of it.
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Last year, the Atlantic published a list of the 50 greatest breakthroughs since the wheel. On a list of 750 technology-related articles, there ought to be room for all of them even if it isn't the definitive list. The industrial synthesis of ammonia developed by Fritz Haber was included as #11, and is arguably the most significant chemical reaction invented by man. To quote from Ullmann's Encyclopedia of Industrial Chemistry, "The catalytic synthesis of ammonia from its elements is one of the greatest achievements of industrial chemistry. This process not only solved a fundamental problem in securing our food supply by production of fertilizers but also opened a new phase of industrial chemistry by laying the foundations for subsequent high-pressure processes like methanol synthesis, Hydroformylation, Fischer–Tropsch process, coal liquefaction, and Reppe reactions."
The chemistry is low on compounds and reactions and high in elements. The initial editors who were probably not very familiar with the topic had to quickly fill the VA list with articles. It is easier to add every element than to think of vital compounds, reactions and other articles if you don't have any expertise in chemistry. This type of thing happens everywhere on the VA list.
Most elements are still vital. Just not all of them. Especially many of the transactinides. We're better off adding the article on the element group and the island of stability. Gizza ( t)( c) 04:28, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
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Not vital: there are more fundamental topics in inorganic chemistry to add, such as oxidation state, electronegativity, ionization energy and coordination complex.
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The development of steelmaking processes like the Bessemer process was responsible for initiating the second phase of the Industrial Revolution and deserves separate treatment from steel. This was #19 on the Atlantic list of scientific breakthroughs.
I couldn't decide whether steelmaking was better placed next to steel or under metallurgy. Maybe we should create a dedicated metallurgy section in Technology where we can list both metal alloys and metalworking techniques, just like how Textiles contains both natural fibres and techniques for making fabric from them. Cobblet ( talk) 06:25, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
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Not quite as notable as other historical alloys, including some we don't list such as pewter and cupronickel. Alloys for specialty applications (which is how I would describe aluminum alloys, magnesium alloys and titanium alloys in general) should probably be left off the list.
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The most important type of turbine, responsible for most electricity generation today. #36 on the Atlantic's list of 50 great scientific breakthroughs. It's surprising we don't have this when the less vital types of turbines are all covered in one way or another: wind turbine is listed, water turbines are covered under hydropower and gas turbines are covered by jet engine.
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Modern society would be unimaginable if we hadn't invented efficient methods of oil drilling and refining. These came in at #35 and #39 on the Atlantic list. I suggest removing refining since it's just another way of saying "purification" and the article's unlikely to become anything beyond a dictionary definition – my guess is that whoever first put it on the list specifically had oil refining in mind.
User:Purplebackpack89, if you really want to include "refining" as a catch-all term for chemical purification methods, the technical term is separation process. I don't really think it's necessary because methods like extractive metallurgy (the refining of metals), fractional distillation (of petroleum), recrystallization (of sugar) and zone melting (of silicon) have little in common with each other, and I think we're better off deciding whether or not to include each process separately. (We've got a subsection for techniques like these under Basics in Chemistry.) Cobblet ( talk) 06:20, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
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This was #31 on the Atlantic's list of 50 great scientific breakthroughs. An essential agricultural device in ancient times and still in use today.
Do we really need sickle, scythe and machete? Cobblet ( talk) 00:39, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
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There are less than 25 companies (present and historical) on the list; no aerospace manufacturer really belongs in such select company, let alone three. Right now United Technologies Corporation has a bigger market cap than any of these.
It's been suggested that we group the companies under Society and social sciences/Business and economics/Companies. As far as I can remember, right now we've got East India Company and Dutch East India Company under History, a bunch of websites under Mass media, Coca-Cola under Food and drink, and six car companies in Transport. Am I missing any? Are we sure we want to move all of these, or should some of them stay where they are? (I think maybe the websites should stay put.) Cobblet ( talk) 21:04, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
I have proposed that uncle and aunt be merged together. As both of these articles are currently listed as vital and a successful merger will affect the number of articles listed, I believe it is important to notify Vital Article WikiProject editors. Anyone who is interested in the proposal is welcome to offer their opinion. Regards. Gizza ( t)( c) 04:35, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
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A cult figure, Rajinikanth is the most famous South Indian film hero. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 09:58, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
See Wikipedia_talk:Vital_articles/Expanded/Archive_23#Add_Rajinikanth. There was no consensus to add because not enough people !voted and discussed the proposal. I am learning slightly towards support but I will need to go through the list of entertainers again. Gizza ( t)( c) 04:05, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
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One of India's best known and respected playback singers, Lata Mangeshkar is awarded the highest civilian award of India Bharat Ratna as well as the highest film award Dada Saheb Phalke Award. For more than a decade, she held the record of the most recordings in the world. Redtigerxyz Talk 11:53, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
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Seeing as how the world's first historians Herodotus and Sima Qian are listed, I think you can make a case to add the world's first known linguist and grammarian. The Noam Chomsky of his time and for a much longer period of time. Gizza ( t)( c) 06:50, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
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Howie is probably not even the greatest ice hockey player of the pre-WWII era (I'd argue in favour of Eddie Shore) and shouldn't come close to being on a list of the top 10 ice hockey players of all time, let alone appear on a list that doesn't include Bobby Orr or Mario Lemieux. Field hockey somehow has no representatives on the list at all despite being one of the most globally popular team sports. Dhyan Chand was not only one of field hockey's greatest players but also one of greatest athletes in India's history: that country's award for sportspeople and its national stadium are both named after him.
With the World Cup in full swing, this seems as good a time as any to point out that the world of sports does not revolve around the US like our list would have you believe. I know a lot of difficult work has been done to trim it down but I think there remain some fairly obvious cuts to be made. For example, if I haven't missed someone, our list leads one to believe that the four greatest coaches in history are all Americans, and that three of them are basketball coaches ( Vince Lombardi being the exception). I think it would make more sense to limit the number of basketball coaches to one and add somebody from a different sport ( Alex Ferguson being a pretty obvious choice). I suggest we keep John Wooden and remove Phil Jackson and Pat Summitt. Thoughts? Cobblet ( talk) 09:33, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
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Field hockey is one of the most popular sports for women in the world. In fact, women's hockey is probably more popular than men's. In light of that, and the current under-representation of women's sport in the list, I think we should include a female hockey player too. Luciana Aymar is widely regarded as the greatest female player of all time. She has won the International Hockey Federation's Player of the Year award eight times, more than anyone else, male or female. She's still going strong at the age of 36, winning the award again last year. She's won four Olympic medals, four World Cup medals (two gold) and an extraordinary nine medals - including five gold - at the Champions Trophy (the other major international tournament). She's a huge star in Argentina and probably the most famous hockey player, man or woman, worldwide. Neljack ( talk) 06:54, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
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Rugby union is a major international sport, comparable in popularity to American football (and with more global reach, since American football's popularity is of course heavily concentrated in one country). Many people regard Gareth Edwards as the greatest player in the history of the sport - indeed he was voted as such in a poll of international players in 2003. Neljack ( talk) 10:30, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
Rsm77, I did think about Lomu, but in the end I went for the three names that I have seen most often mentioned as the greatest rugby player of all time. I don't think Lomu is mentioned quite so often - certainly when discussing who is the greatest All Black of all time, the argument is usually Meads v. McCaw. I suspect the reason for that is that, sadly, his kidney illness prevented him from consistently recapturing the sort of extraordinary form that made him a global superstar at the 1995 World Cup. Neljack ( talk) 03:05, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
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Barry Bonds isn't on the list either.
I counted up the number of athletes from each country on our list (we have 134 in total). Here's the breakdown:
For comparison, even though the US is often said to dominate the Olympics, the Americans have only won 15% of all the Olympic medals ever awarded. What's happened to our list is not American "domination" but an American "infestation". Cobblet ( talk) 11:15, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
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Never managed to win the Olympic gold. Will be remembered as a great skater, but not among the very greatest (compare her record to Irina Rodnina or Sonja Henie, other female skaters on the list). Figure skaters are over-represented, while other winter sports lack representation at the moment. Neljack ( talk) 12:31, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
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Obviously winning Olympic gold at such a young age was a very impressive achievement, but she then retired from amateur figure skating, so I don't think she had the overall record to warrant inclusion. Like Kwan, a case of recentism. Neljack ( talk) 12:33, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
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Not convinced we need any sports coaches on the list. Great players have a greater cultural impact and achieve greater fame. There are great coaches in all sports, and if we include them as well as great players then this section will become unreasonably large. Neljack ( talk) 12:44, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
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Same as for Jackson above. Neljack ( talk) 12:47, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
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Per rationale for Jackson above. Neljack ( talk) 12:49, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
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See rationale for Jackson. Neljack ( talk) 12:52, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
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LeMond, while a great cyclist, is not on the same level as the other five cyclists listed (excluding Armstrong for obvious reasons). He won the Tour de France three times; all the others won it five times, except for Fausto Coppi, whose career was interrupted by World War II and who, in any case, won far more other stuff than LeMond. These five are generally regarded as the five greatest male cyclists of all time. There are others who would also rank ahead of LeMond, such as Gino Bartali. Neljack ( talk) 13:22, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
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The fastest woman ever. Nobody has got close to her 100m and 200m world records in more than quarter of a century since they were set. I am aware that there have been suggestions that she used drugs, but no evidence to that effect has ever been produced, so I don't think it would be appropriate for us to exclude her on that basis. According to Prince Alexandre de Merode, then Chairman of the IOC's Medical Commission, she was singled out for extra-rigorous testing and never failed a test. [1] Neljack ( talk) 13:35, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Out of curiosity, does cheating make an athlete less vital? Perhaps the controversy itself surrounding the athlete makes the athlete more vital. I am just asking this since we do not include Barry Bonds and are removing Lance Armstrong. Cheating obviously nullifies an athlete's accomplishments, but does that make him/her less vital? PointsofNoReturn ( talk) 22:48, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
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We don't need three American NASCAR racers. We probably don't need any. We still have Foyt. p b p 00:13, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
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Although I think history of writing should be in, I was also thinking of this, and others said it may be more deserving as it concerns language in general specifically spoken obviously not just writing. History of Math Sci Art and Tech are in the vital 100, then history of medicine and agriculture in the vital 1000, it follows that history/origin of language (history of language redirects to this article) may deserve a place at least at the 10,000 level, since language itself is in the vital 10. Language section at the moment has 169 articles in it, so an article like this should really get a place if we are dedicating this many articles to language.
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Oppose
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Pre-Baroque music continues to be poorly represented on the list of individual works. Sacred music is also poorly represented. Therefore, I propose this 800 (or more?)-year old ditty for the list. As evidenced by its article and this YouTube video, the song continues to be sampled in various scores and compositions. p b p 15:54, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Who nominated this genre? PointsofNoReturn ( talk) 23:04, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
This is a tough call. If a specific piece of Medieval/Renaissance music needs to go on the list then this is probably the best choice. But I'm not sure it's a good idea to list this when we could be listing Mass (music) or even church music instead. I think we've got too many specific musical compositions listed and too few articles on broader topics in music. European classical music is represented by thirty works: is that too much? (The glut of pop music selections is arguably worse.) If it isn't, then I suggest swapping this for something like the Clavier-Übung III (which should probably go anyway). Cobblet ( talk) 22:08, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
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Deities more significant to Chinese culture and not currently on the list include Guan Yu, Guanyin, Fu Lu Shou or Cai Shen. The number of people who subscribe to Taoist philosophy is much greater than the number of people who participate in Taoist religious practices, so while other foundational text of Taoism besides the Tao Te Ching is absolutely vital, the Taoist deities aren't.
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Five varieties of a non-staple food like cheese seems excessive when notable varieties of staple foods like noodles, flatbread (both nominated below) and couscous are missing. Having all of them be European, including two from Italy, is also undue bias. Gouda isn't vital; Parmesan is a little better, but in terms of production it lags behind Mozzarella and Cheddar in the USA, and behind Mozzarella and Grana Padano in Italy. Paneer serves as a meat substitute in South Asian cuisine in the same way that tofu does in East Asian cuisine: it plays a more significant culinary role than most European cheeses, which tend to be used more as condiments than as dietary staples.
Oppose removing Parmesan and Gouda. These types of cheese are popular. I would support a simple addition of Paneer though. PointsofNoReturn ( talk) 18:47, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Dal is also a meat substitute for vegetarians in South Asia. I'll think about this proposal a bit more. Gizza ( t)( c) 00:47, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
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The Lantern Festival is another important holiday to the Chinese. It is of similar importance as Yom Kippur to Judaism. It should be on the list as should Chinese New year.
Fair enough. Lets add an Indian holiday. Any ideas? PointsofNoReturn ( talk) 01:51, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
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The concept of language extinction is already covered in language death and endangered language. Sociolinguistics is vital: it studies how language is used in society – how and why people of different social classes, ethnicities, age, geographic location, etc. speak the same language differently. Concepts like accent, dialect, multilingualism and even language extinction are all aspects of sociolinguistics.
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Important topic in the modern world and economy, effects many people a lot who depend on it, and others who pay tax to pay for it, a vital topic for an encyclopedia that is covering government and economic topics like we are. A few other users have expressed interest in this already, but I'm unsure of it's placement, I would have thought in economics with pension, but government seems sensible too, thoughts on that? Should we have simple Welfare also/instead? they are both decent articles, but welfare state is slightly longer and in a few more languages, thoughts on that too? Carl wev 13:52, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
I think welfare is more vital than welfare state. I wouldn't mind having both but there could be a big overlap. -- V3n0M93 ( talk) 14:46, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
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The article Human intelligence is a recently hived-off article, parallel to Artificial intelligence (already in the list of 1,000 vital articles, under the technology group of topics), formerly a part of the article Intelligence. This article fits well in the psychology topics planned for the list of 10,000, and it is already on my do-list as an article to significantly expand and revise on the basis of reliable sources that I have already shared on the article talk page and have at hand for edits over the next several months. This nomination replaces a nomination of another article (similar topic, but narrower, better quality article today) I made earlier today.
Are you aware we have intelligence already or not? Sorry to play devil's advocate, how many human article's do we want, lots of topics have a non-species-specific overview article then a human one? We only have a few at moment like Human gastrointestinal tract, human body and human tooth. Why not these that are missing (but most we have the non species specific article) human brain, human heart, Human skeleton, Human penis, Human skin, Human fertilization, just to name a few, all of these seem to be written about about more around the world than human intelligence as they are in more languages than human intelligence that is only in 1 other language. I admit that the general article will always be mostly human anyway, like we have skeleton and human skeleton, but the skeleton article is mostly going to cover human skeleton anyway. Intelligence article is going to cover a lot about human intelligence too. Out of human specific articles, human brain seems one of the most significant. So which "human" articles do we include (in addition to the regular article) or exclude and why? Carl wev 09:42, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
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Covered under law of war. I don't think we need this any more than we need armistice or ceasefire or peace treaty.
Do we need surrender (military) either? Cobblet ( talk) 06:20, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
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The internal taxonomic ranks aren't vital: the fact that five of these are designated as "major" ranks is arbitrary, and people have not hesitated to make up new ranks they find convenient (e.g. Tribe (biology) or Legion (biology); even phylum was not in Linnaeus's original taxonomy). Also genus is covered by binomial nomenclature, added above.
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Pretty low down the scale compared to other fruit and vegetables. There is talk of reducing organisms and this one looks weak, compared to other plants/fruit/veg on the list and some not on the list. Article says they are a staple of Mexican cuisine, but we didn't want to add Mexican cuisine itself. Other plants and organisms have been mentioned which are missing and seem higher importance, are olive, nutmeg, willow, Taxus baccata, Henna, Mole (animal), I think we need some removals and possibly some swaps. Carl wev 18:04, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
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Although not every individual's preference today, this must have existed in every culture of the world throughout all history since before we were even human. I believe it to be of interest to the general reader, and the more expert, only thing that covers this that I'm aware of is breast, infant and milk, which is hardly a big overlap. Several people already expressed interest in this. The article is very long and in many languages as I would expect, and probably does a much better job of explaining why it's vital than I can here in one paragraph. Carl wev 06:58, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
I also thought of diaper, and I remember someone else mentioning it as well, I think I would probably support diaper too but not not as strongly as breastfeeding, it's fairly significant. Carl wev 12:00, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
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The most important part of sex. It is the exact moment that a full human cell is formed that eventually turns into a human baby. This process is also the center piece of the abortion debate about whether or not a human cell counts as a living being. It is also top importance in wikiproject biology.
This is pretty important more so than ejaculation, I was also thinking of IVF or In vitro fertilisation, what do people think of that? Carl wev 18:55, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
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We're missing some basic physical quantities.
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Necessary components of all modern buildings, not just houses. HVAC refers to ventilation and temperature control systems in general and is essentially a subdiscipline of mechanical engineering.
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Only posh houses have pantries as separate rooms. Most people make do with cupboards and cabinets of some sort. Cabinet (furniture) was removed from Everyday life/Household items last year because it was a redirect and not enough people supported the idea of adding cabinetry. I still think it's a worthwhile addition, not just in the context of household items (although we can still put it there) but also of woodworking and the history of decorative arts.
Merriam Webster says pantry doesn't have to be a seperate room, it can be identical in meaning to cabinet. To a degree this is American versus British usage. I'm still supporting because the meaning of cabinetry is wider, I think. Whoever originally put pantry on the list may have meant food storage in general, because people usually say "keeping a pantry" and mean food storage. So food storage should probably be added. Some day. -- Melody Lavender ( talk) 11:57, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
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I think we should have articles like this, as in vessel by power, we have sail and sailing, Barge, Canoe, Caravel, Container ship, Ferry, Fishing vessel, Junk (ship), Merchant vessel, Passenger ship, Riverboat, many of which are ship by use, I think ship by power is slightly more relevant to technology, I think some of our present ships are less worthy than steamboat. We have several automobile shapes/types ( Convertible, Coupé, Hatchback, Sedan (automobile), Sports car, Sport utility vehicle, and Station wagon) most of which I think are fairly weak, and I'm thinking of suggesting removals among them, maybe, to keep balance. Carl wev 10:32, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
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This is only a car shape, and effects virtually nothing else, does not affect the power, fuel, machinery/technology/engine, speed, nor a cars usage in any way other than the position of the engine, seats and trunk. Even if my explanation is slightly inaccurate, I don't think this is a top 10,000 article. I may follow this with other car shapes later one at time, probably. Carl wev 19:27, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
Off topic, but I agree with and it's funny I was thinking of making the exact same comparison, that we aren't listing different types of houses, like terraced semi-detached and detached. Carl wev 23:25, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
Pretty much the same rational as Sedan above. Carl wev 19:27, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
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We currently list 5 rapid transit systems and 1 railway system but no highway systems, which dwarf those in size and importance. The National Highway System of the United States includes the Interstate Highway System, United States Numbered Highways, and various other roads and (according to the article) is the largest highway system in the world at 160,000 mi (260,000 km). Malerisch ( talk) 04:20, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
I'd argue that the National Highway System is very significant, considering that the Interstate Highway System is the "largest and most expensive public works project ever undertaken" ( source). Wikipedia has the cost at $425 billion. Malerisch ( talk) 16:42, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
If the article about the transcontinental railroad isn't on the vital articles list yet, it certainly outranks an article about the Interstate Highway system (which was preceded by the railroad, which helped set the locations of cities later served by highways, and was also preceded by the earlier national United States highway system). -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk, how I edit) 17:50, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
You're absolutely correct on the first and second points—these innovations aren't that significant, and size does not mean testing the limits of technology. On the other hand, I'd argue that size clearly matters in general. The Great Wall of China wouldn't be on this list if it were 200 km long instead of 20,000 km. The Akashi Kaikyō Bridge is on this list instead of the Xihoumen Bridge because it is slightly longer, and the same reasoning goes with the Three Gorges Dam instead of the Itaipu Dam. I nominated the NHS partly because it is the longest highway system in the world. China's is not. If you feel that China's expressways are vital, I'd support that as well.
I also don't think that those questions are the best way of assessing if something is a "marvel." The proper method would be finding reliable sources to back up claims, and the link I provided above as well as books like this and this do call it a marvel. For the record, China's highways are also called marvels here.
However, I'm not nominating this based on its size alone. Like I said before, the NHS has had a much more significant economic impact than any rapid transit system. ( Specifics). To me, a highway system is more important than a rapid transit system since highways connect a whole country while rapid transit only connects a city. By the way, if you still disagree, do you feel that any modern highway systems are worthy of inclusion? Malerisch ( talk) 06:32, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
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I've opened discussion and vote for human in the vital 10 (here). Brought up a couple of times before but never formally voted on. Carlwev ( talk) 04:39, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
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Joe Montana is one of the greatest quarterbacks in NFL history. He won four super-bowls and was an extremely large figure in sports history. In addition, there aren't any modern quarterbacks on the American football list. There should be at least one modern quarterback in that list, and I feel that Joe Montana should be there.
I actually think the number of American footballers looks about right (it certainly doesn't look overrepresented when you compare it to the number of baseball, basketball, tennis and ice hockey players we've got) and Joe Montana's certainly a very good choice to represent the sport, so I'd support a swap for one of the other figures. Cobblet ( talk) 08:34, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
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Had this on my mind for a while, I believe writing to be one of humanity's most significant "inventions", we have placed it in the vital 100, therefore I think history of writing to be vital at the 10,000 level, more vital than other histories we have. Things we have history for at present include radio, communication (almost), aviation, maritime etc but the articles for their parent topics are not in the vital 100 like writing is; others have shown an interest in History of writing too which has pushed me to suggest it. Carl wev 18:16, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Should all Level 2 articles for which there is a suitable history article have their "history of" articles listed at this level? Many of them already are but this would mean adding history of construction, history of the family, history of engineering, history of telecommunication, history of logic, history of energy, history of money, history of geometry and history of clothing. There might have been a few that I missed. Communication itself is an article which has a strong case to be added at Level 2. I still need to think about this proposal. Gizza ( t)( c) 02:28, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
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Having the Murray River on the list without also having the Darling River is like listing the Mississippi River but not the Missouri River. When combined together the Murray-Darling is the longest river in Oceania and the fifteenth longest river in the world. It makes no sense to list 69 rivers and tributaries without including this one.
Really, Maunus? Why not? Frankly, I find this kind of laconic response frustrating, since it does nothing to build consensus. It ought to be self-evident that this is a more significant river than several others we've listed. Also I daresay this is a more important article to have than at least 500 of the biographies we list. Cobblet ( talk) 03:23, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
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It is not architecturally notable. Its exterior is is entirely un-notable, having no facade, no main door and no decoration except for the guards' walkway near the top, which has caused more trouble as a water-cathment than it is worth. The value of the building lies in its four stages of decoration, which should be individually listed as vital articles in the appropriate categories:
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Why don't we just move this under Visual arts then? Cobblet ( talk) 21:09, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
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This is a radical proposal. Two of these works are not architecture. Only one, the Great Pyramid of Giza, still exists. Of the others, fragments of the Mausoleum of Harlicarnassus exist. The greater part of what is written about all the proposed deletions is speculation. I propose that the article Seven Wonders of the Ancient World is retained.
Keep
I would put all 7 wonders in their own category, regardless on the type of wonder it is. That included the Great Pyramid of Giza. PointsofNoReturn ( talk) 15:31, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
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Brunelleschi. The building of the dome changed the role of the architect forever. No wider dome was built until the Modern era. He did what others thought impossible.
Support
How many examples of Christian churches in Western Europe do we really need? We already have three (Chartres, Notre Dame and St. Peter's) and Amandajm is proposing the addition of ten more. However, outstanding examples of church architecture elsewhere are being ignored ( St. Vitus Cathedral, Saint Basil's Cathedral, the churches of Lalibela or Ouro Preto) and we also have no examples of architecturally significant abbeys or monasteries ( Mount Athos, Mont Saint-Michel, Westminster Abbey). Even worse, it's self-evident that representation of other religious architectures is severely lacking. While I agree the Architecture section needs expansion, much greater discretion needs to be exercised in our selections (and attention needs to be paid to secular architecture as well) if we're not to end up with the same issues of balance that we've been trying to fix in other sections. Cobblet ( talk) 05:57, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
To consider your suggestions individually:
Thank you for your feedback on my suggestions – we need more expert input and your comments are well taken. I agree the most important works in the history of architecture in Christian Europe should be included and Florence's cathedral ought to qualify as such. But in an absence of any discussion of architectural works from other religions, it's impossible for me to figure out how many cathedrals we really should have, and I oppose adding any more until we have such a discussion. Like Elekhh, I think we should be concentrating on adding more styles than adding individual buildings. I'm sorry for being so obstinate but the first architectural styles to be added to the list were also European, so this is becoming a real problem. I see there's support for adding the Alhambra; I'd be curious to see whether people would also support adding notable mosques like Umayyad Mosque, Selimiye Mosque, Jameh Mosque of Isfahan and Great Mosque of Djenné (I'm just as ignorant of Islamic architecture as I am of Christian, but am trying to pick examples representing different styles and time periods within it); or notable Southeast Asian temples besides Angkor like Bagan and Borobudur. By the way, my understanding is that St. Basil's and Red Square are adjacent to the Kremlin and not actually part of the citadel, and our article on the Kremlin only mentions St. Basil's in passing. Cobblet ( talk) 08:09, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
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of unique importance as a work of late Byzantine architecture
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Discussion
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Abbott Suger's royal church. He rebuilt the choir and ambulatory to combine all the burgeoning elements of Gothic architecture. It is an icon of French architecture, and crucial in the development of the Gothic style.
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The most significant Gothic building in Germany. Its exquisite Medieval choir has the largest height to width ratio of any medieval church. Its west end (not completed to the original plan until the 19th century) has the tallest paired church towers in the world.
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The supreme masterpiece in a collection of Early Christian/ Byzantine buildings of Ravenna and one of the most architecturally significant buildings in Italy.
Support
Cobblet, if you are opposing this, then you obviously know nothing whatsoever about the building, but are simply opposing it on the grounds that it is a church and in Italy. Amandajm ( talk) 08:21, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
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With Pisa Cathedral, it is one of the greatest Romanesque buildings in the world. It is a building of extraordinary magnificence and character. Moreover, it has the first ribbed vault, the first pointed arched vault and the earliest flying buttresses. The significance of this building is not reflected in its article, to which I should turn my attention in the near future.
Support
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This precinct includes Pisa Cathedral, the leaning tower, the Baptistry and the Campo Santo ( enclosed burial ground) The group is of unique importance as a "matching set". The cathedral is the greatest Romanesque building south of the Alps. The famous Leaning Tower of Pisa is the finest of all the many freestanding Romanesque towers in Italy. The Baptistery is renowned not only for its architecture but for its acoustic qualities. As an incidental, the buildings are closely associated with Galileo and his experiments.
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Similar overlap exists between the Parthenon and the Acropolis of Athens. Is this something we should fix? Cobblet ( talk) 07:09, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
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One of the most significant examples of Romanesque architecture. Amandajm ( talk) 10:38, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
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Discussion Speyer v. Durham- I think there is room for both. They are very different. Amandajm ( talk) 09:28, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
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Palladio's much imitated masterpiece.
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The city Ur is listed in the history section so adding this will lead to overlap. Perhaps we could have a generic article on Step pyramids instead. Adding the Ziggurat won't be the worse case of overlap on the list but I will need to think about it a bit more. Gizza ( t)( c) 03:19, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
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Why don't we have any articles delineating music by place? We have Latin genres, but we don't have music of Latin America. We have American genres but we don't have Music of the United States p b p 16:12, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
I definitely support the intention of this proposal. Increasing geographic diversity will represent what is vital in the world of music better. I'm not sure if the best way of doing it is to add general musical overview articles or specific music genres from different parts of the world that have been the most influential and popular. I chose the middle path when I suggested Indian classical music, which has many genres (Hindustani, Carnatic, devotional) but doesn't capture the majority of Indian musical tradition (various folk genres and modern genres).
One problem with some of the general articles is that they say so little of substance and can become list-like. Taking music of Africa as an example, there are 54 countries and 1.1 billion people on the continent. There could be 100 significant genres in Africa. While a group of countries in one region might have musical similarities, there is nothing remotely common throughout Africa. The musical tradition and history in Egypt is radically different from South Africa. OTOH, an article on a dominant and influential genre provides valuable and in-depth information. The reader will learn a lot more from it. But then it means a lot of parts of Africa will miss out. It's a tough decision to make. Gizza ( t)( c) 13:59, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
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Legalism was the guiding philosophy of Shi Huangdi, the first emperor of the Qin Dynasty. It is the only philosophy within Chinese Philosophy that hasn't been added yet. Legalism was used to terrorize the people during the Qin Dynasty and is important as an ancient form of totalitarianism.
While it did influence Chinese political thought as much as Confucianism and Taoism, it's far from being the "only other Chinese philosophy". I'd support adding it, but I think we should be adding Chinese philosophy and Hundred Schools of Thought first, and perhaps Neo-Confucianism should go in before it as well. Cobblet ( talk) 22:46, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
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One of the most well-known symbols of humankind. Notorious due to Nazi use, but religiously important in Indian religions. Ancient usage throughout Asia and Europe.
Are there many other religious and polictical symbols on VA? I noticed that Om is on the list while Cross isn't. The Swastika would definitely be up there among the most vital of them. It has been used historically throughout many different regions of the world. Gizza ( t)( c) 10:49, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
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Numismatics is the collecting hobby with by far the longest history. Perhaps we could use the general hobby rather than listing a second specific example, which is also covered in postage stamp. We don't seem to list other equally notable examples like antiques or trading cards.
I was a little surprised not to find hobby listed, but most of the things it lists are already on the list or are currently being proposed, and I suppose there isn't really much more to say about the subject that hasn't been said elsewhere (e.g. in leisure or recreation). Incidentally, I don't really buy the distinction between numismatics and coin collecting; the distinction seems to have been invented so that more serious collectors can scoff at less serious collectors. Cobblet ( talk) 09:49, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
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Per Cobblet's suggestion above. We have a number of specific hobbies, but not Hobby itself. p b p 16:30, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
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Per Cobblet's suggestion above. p b p 16:30, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
On the "widespread" comment, they're quite widely used in Japan, and also in Europe. Trading card can apply to collectible card games (Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Magic: The Gathering) as well as baseball cards. p b p 05:25, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
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There are too many specific currencies on the list. The fundamental concepts in international finance (such as exchange rate above) should replace them. Rupee refers to the currencies of multiple countries but none of them are the among the top 15 traded currencies in the world. The US Dollar, Euro, Yen and Pound Sterling occupy the top four while the Renminbi is ninth and growing. Peso would be similar in importance to Rupee but neither are vital.
International trade is another big omission. Globalization is listed on Level 3 so the driving factor of globalization should be on Level 4. There are other big gaps. Stock is more important than all of the listed stock exchanges. Adding derivative (finance) along with stock will mean all three broad types of financial securities will be listed (we already have debt). Opportunity cost, profit, market failure and comparative advantage are all missing. One of either economic growth or gross domestic product also has a very strong case in being added. Gizza ( t)( c) 03:14, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
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This is an important Hindu festival that has spread to other regions of South Asia. Celebrations are also scattered around the world.
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Diwali is a sacred holiday for Hindus. It is a national holiday in India and other nations in Southeast Asia. In fact, it is one of the most important holidays for Hindus.
As a festival considered sacred by three religions (Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism), Diwali is an official holiday in multiple countries including many outside South Asia. Comparing it to the other holidays listed, it is definitely vital. Still have to think about Holi. I'm learning towards support but we should determine how many holidays in total we should roughly have. Gizza ( t)( c) 12:14, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
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One of the most sacred holidays on the Muslim calendar. It marks the end of Ramadan and consists of a massive feast. It is celebrated by Muslims around the world.
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The foundational work of the civil law tradition - the main source of the Roman law it was built on. Contains the Code of Justinian, the Digest of Justinian, and Justinian's Institutes. This codification of Roman law has had huge influence, not just during the Roman Empire, but right up to the present day. Neljack ( talk) 04:38, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
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It seems welfare may be more popular than welfare state, so I'll open this one too, same rational as welfare state above. Carl wev 12:26, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
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Trade unions have had a huge political, social and economic impact. Neljack ( talk) 07:39, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
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Meteorology contains 50 articles but this is missing, although attempted since ancient times, more accurate in modern times with modern science and computers. Has effect on travel, tourism, business, agriculture, military, shipping and safety (like predicting large storms). Appears as a common feature on TV with news or in newspapers. Meteorology is the general study of the atmosphere not just weather forecasting. Carl wev 13:10, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
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As academic fields these are essentially just branches of meteorology: I think they're too specific. Atmospheric chemistry also overlaps with environmental chemistry which is on the list. We also already list atmospheric sciences.
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We have nothing to cover concepts like air pollutants and greenhouse gases, smog, or the effect of air quality on human health – all problems that have plagued humanity since industrialization.
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If we include air pollution I believe we should include water pollution too, it is almost as significant and also an important topic, and something that affects millions of people. Carl wev 12:32, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, litter and soil contamination look like good adds. Maybe we need a section specifically about human impact on the environment and environmentalism. It's an interdisciplinary field so it could go in several places, but since we're talking about human impact I'd put it in the social sciences. Cobblet ( talk) 04:32, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
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I think the branches of oceanography ( ocean chemistry, marine biology, marine geology) can be covered by oceanography itself. I don't think we need to list too many interdisciplinary sciences, and we should prioritize listing broader fields first (we're missing stuff like environmental studies). Cobblet ( talk) 23:18, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
Actually, User:PointsofNoReturn, none of them are on the list. Which is why physical oceanography sticks out like a sore thumb to me. Cobblet ( talk) 00:29, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
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As a type of water or ice black ice is not vital, over half the article is written from a traffic POV, as a traffic topic, there are far more vital topics like road surface, traffic lights, either way, it can go, ground water is much better Carl wev 18:54, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
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Another swap of a non-vital article (a butte is a small mesa, which is also on the list) for a vital one.
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Swap in the environmental issue for the chemical that's being phased out because of it.
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Last year, the Atlantic published a list of the 50 greatest breakthroughs since the wheel. On a list of 750 technology-related articles, there ought to be room for all of them even if it isn't the definitive list. The industrial synthesis of ammonia developed by Fritz Haber was included as #11, and is arguably the most significant chemical reaction invented by man. To quote from Ullmann's Encyclopedia of Industrial Chemistry, "The catalytic synthesis of ammonia from its elements is one of the greatest achievements of industrial chemistry. This process not only solved a fundamental problem in securing our food supply by production of fertilizers but also opened a new phase of industrial chemistry by laying the foundations for subsequent high-pressure processes like methanol synthesis, Hydroformylation, Fischer–Tropsch process, coal liquefaction, and Reppe reactions."
The chemistry is low on compounds and reactions and high in elements. The initial editors who were probably not very familiar with the topic had to quickly fill the VA list with articles. It is easier to add every element than to think of vital compounds, reactions and other articles if you don't have any expertise in chemistry. This type of thing happens everywhere on the VA list.
Most elements are still vital. Just not all of them. Especially many of the transactinides. We're better off adding the article on the element group and the island of stability. Gizza ( t)( c) 04:28, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
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Not vital: there are more fundamental topics in inorganic chemistry to add, such as oxidation state, electronegativity, ionization energy and coordination complex.
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The development of steelmaking processes like the Bessemer process was responsible for initiating the second phase of the Industrial Revolution and deserves separate treatment from steel. This was #19 on the Atlantic list of scientific breakthroughs.
I couldn't decide whether steelmaking was better placed next to steel or under metallurgy. Maybe we should create a dedicated metallurgy section in Technology where we can list both metal alloys and metalworking techniques, just like how Textiles contains both natural fibres and techniques for making fabric from them. Cobblet ( talk) 06:25, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
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Not quite as notable as other historical alloys, including some we don't list such as pewter and cupronickel. Alloys for specialty applications (which is how I would describe aluminum alloys, magnesium alloys and titanium alloys in general) should probably be left off the list.
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The most important type of turbine, responsible for most electricity generation today. #36 on the Atlantic's list of 50 great scientific breakthroughs. It's surprising we don't have this when the less vital types of turbines are all covered in one way or another: wind turbine is listed, water turbines are covered under hydropower and gas turbines are covered by jet engine.
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Modern society would be unimaginable if we hadn't invented efficient methods of oil drilling and refining. These came in at #35 and #39 on the Atlantic list. I suggest removing refining since it's just another way of saying "purification" and the article's unlikely to become anything beyond a dictionary definition – my guess is that whoever first put it on the list specifically had oil refining in mind.
User:Purplebackpack89, if you really want to include "refining" as a catch-all term for chemical purification methods, the technical term is separation process. I don't really think it's necessary because methods like extractive metallurgy (the refining of metals), fractional distillation (of petroleum), recrystallization (of sugar) and zone melting (of silicon) have little in common with each other, and I think we're better off deciding whether or not to include each process separately. (We've got a subsection for techniques like these under Basics in Chemistry.) Cobblet ( talk) 06:20, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
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This was #31 on the Atlantic's list of 50 great scientific breakthroughs. An essential agricultural device in ancient times and still in use today.
Do we really need sickle, scythe and machete? Cobblet ( talk) 00:39, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
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There are less than 25 companies (present and historical) on the list; no aerospace manufacturer really belongs in such select company, let alone three. Right now United Technologies Corporation has a bigger market cap than any of these.
It's been suggested that we group the companies under Society and social sciences/Business and economics/Companies. As far as I can remember, right now we've got East India Company and Dutch East India Company under History, a bunch of websites under Mass media, Coca-Cola under Food and drink, and six car companies in Transport. Am I missing any? Are we sure we want to move all of these, or should some of them stay where they are? (I think maybe the websites should stay put.) Cobblet ( talk) 21:04, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
I have proposed that uncle and aunt be merged together. As both of these articles are currently listed as vital and a successful merger will affect the number of articles listed, I believe it is important to notify Vital Article WikiProject editors. Anyone who is interested in the proposal is welcome to offer their opinion. Regards. Gizza ( t)( c) 04:35, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
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A cult figure, Rajinikanth is the most famous South Indian film hero. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 09:58, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
See Wikipedia_talk:Vital_articles/Expanded/Archive_23#Add_Rajinikanth. There was no consensus to add because not enough people !voted and discussed the proposal. I am learning slightly towards support but I will need to go through the list of entertainers again. Gizza ( t)( c) 04:05, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
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One of India's best known and respected playback singers, Lata Mangeshkar is awarded the highest civilian award of India Bharat Ratna as well as the highest film award Dada Saheb Phalke Award. For more than a decade, she held the record of the most recordings in the world. Redtigerxyz Talk 11:53, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
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Seeing as how the world's first historians Herodotus and Sima Qian are listed, I think you can make a case to add the world's first known linguist and grammarian. The Noam Chomsky of his time and for a much longer period of time. Gizza ( t)( c) 06:50, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
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Howie is probably not even the greatest ice hockey player of the pre-WWII era (I'd argue in favour of Eddie Shore) and shouldn't come close to being on a list of the top 10 ice hockey players of all time, let alone appear on a list that doesn't include Bobby Orr or Mario Lemieux. Field hockey somehow has no representatives on the list at all despite being one of the most globally popular team sports. Dhyan Chand was not only one of field hockey's greatest players but also one of greatest athletes in India's history: that country's award for sportspeople and its national stadium are both named after him.
With the World Cup in full swing, this seems as good a time as any to point out that the world of sports does not revolve around the US like our list would have you believe. I know a lot of difficult work has been done to trim it down but I think there remain some fairly obvious cuts to be made. For example, if I haven't missed someone, our list leads one to believe that the four greatest coaches in history are all Americans, and that three of them are basketball coaches ( Vince Lombardi being the exception). I think it would make more sense to limit the number of basketball coaches to one and add somebody from a different sport ( Alex Ferguson being a pretty obvious choice). I suggest we keep John Wooden and remove Phil Jackson and Pat Summitt. Thoughts? Cobblet ( talk) 09:33, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
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Field hockey is one of the most popular sports for women in the world. In fact, women's hockey is probably more popular than men's. In light of that, and the current under-representation of women's sport in the list, I think we should include a female hockey player too. Luciana Aymar is widely regarded as the greatest female player of all time. She has won the International Hockey Federation's Player of the Year award eight times, more than anyone else, male or female. She's still going strong at the age of 36, winning the award again last year. She's won four Olympic medals, four World Cup medals (two gold) and an extraordinary nine medals - including five gold - at the Champions Trophy (the other major international tournament). She's a huge star in Argentina and probably the most famous hockey player, man or woman, worldwide. Neljack ( talk) 06:54, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
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Rugby union is a major international sport, comparable in popularity to American football (and with more global reach, since American football's popularity is of course heavily concentrated in one country). Many people regard Gareth Edwards as the greatest player in the history of the sport - indeed he was voted as such in a poll of international players in 2003. Neljack ( talk) 10:30, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
Rsm77, I did think about Lomu, but in the end I went for the three names that I have seen most often mentioned as the greatest rugby player of all time. I don't think Lomu is mentioned quite so often - certainly when discussing who is the greatest All Black of all time, the argument is usually Meads v. McCaw. I suspect the reason for that is that, sadly, his kidney illness prevented him from consistently recapturing the sort of extraordinary form that made him a global superstar at the 1995 World Cup. Neljack ( talk) 03:05, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
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Barry Bonds isn't on the list either.
I counted up the number of athletes from each country on our list (we have 134 in total). Here's the breakdown:
For comparison, even though the US is often said to dominate the Olympics, the Americans have only won 15% of all the Olympic medals ever awarded. What's happened to our list is not American "domination" but an American "infestation". Cobblet ( talk) 11:15, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
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Never managed to win the Olympic gold. Will be remembered as a great skater, but not among the very greatest (compare her record to Irina Rodnina or Sonja Henie, other female skaters on the list). Figure skaters are over-represented, while other winter sports lack representation at the moment. Neljack ( talk) 12:31, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
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Obviously winning Olympic gold at such a young age was a very impressive achievement, but she then retired from amateur figure skating, so I don't think she had the overall record to warrant inclusion. Like Kwan, a case of recentism. Neljack ( talk) 12:33, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
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Not convinced we need any sports coaches on the list. Great players have a greater cultural impact and achieve greater fame. There are great coaches in all sports, and if we include them as well as great players then this section will become unreasonably large. Neljack ( talk) 12:44, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
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Same as for Jackson above. Neljack ( talk) 12:47, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
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Per rationale for Jackson above. Neljack ( talk) 12:49, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
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See rationale for Jackson. Neljack ( talk) 12:52, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
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LeMond, while a great cyclist, is not on the same level as the other five cyclists listed (excluding Armstrong for obvious reasons). He won the Tour de France three times; all the others won it five times, except for Fausto Coppi, whose career was interrupted by World War II and who, in any case, won far more other stuff than LeMond. These five are generally regarded as the five greatest male cyclists of all time. There are others who would also rank ahead of LeMond, such as Gino Bartali. Neljack ( talk) 13:22, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
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The fastest woman ever. Nobody has got close to her 100m and 200m world records in more than quarter of a century since they were set. I am aware that there have been suggestions that she used drugs, but no evidence to that effect has ever been produced, so I don't think it would be appropriate for us to exclude her on that basis. According to Prince Alexandre de Merode, then Chairman of the IOC's Medical Commission, she was singled out for extra-rigorous testing and never failed a test. [1] Neljack ( talk) 13:35, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Out of curiosity, does cheating make an athlete less vital? Perhaps the controversy itself surrounding the athlete makes the athlete more vital. I am just asking this since we do not include Barry Bonds and are removing Lance Armstrong. Cheating obviously nullifies an athlete's accomplishments, but does that make him/her less vital? PointsofNoReturn ( talk) 22:48, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
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We don't need three American NASCAR racers. We probably don't need any. We still have Foyt. p b p 00:13, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
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Although I think history of writing should be in, I was also thinking of this, and others said it may be more deserving as it concerns language in general specifically spoken obviously not just writing. History of Math Sci Art and Tech are in the vital 100, then history of medicine and agriculture in the vital 1000, it follows that history/origin of language (history of language redirects to this article) may deserve a place at least at the 10,000 level, since language itself is in the vital 10. Language section at the moment has 169 articles in it, so an article like this should really get a place if we are dedicating this many articles to language.
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Oppose
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Pre-Baroque music continues to be poorly represented on the list of individual works. Sacred music is also poorly represented. Therefore, I propose this 800 (or more?)-year old ditty for the list. As evidenced by its article and this YouTube video, the song continues to be sampled in various scores and compositions. p b p 15:54, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Who nominated this genre? PointsofNoReturn ( talk) 23:04, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
This is a tough call. If a specific piece of Medieval/Renaissance music needs to go on the list then this is probably the best choice. But I'm not sure it's a good idea to list this when we could be listing Mass (music) or even church music instead. I think we've got too many specific musical compositions listed and too few articles on broader topics in music. European classical music is represented by thirty works: is that too much? (The glut of pop music selections is arguably worse.) If it isn't, then I suggest swapping this for something like the Clavier-Übung III (which should probably go anyway). Cobblet ( talk) 22:08, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
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Deities more significant to Chinese culture and not currently on the list include Guan Yu, Guanyin, Fu Lu Shou or Cai Shen. The number of people who subscribe to Taoist philosophy is much greater than the number of people who participate in Taoist religious practices, so while other foundational text of Taoism besides the Tao Te Ching is absolutely vital, the Taoist deities aren't.
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Five varieties of a non-staple food like cheese seems excessive when notable varieties of staple foods like noodles, flatbread (both nominated below) and couscous are missing. Having all of them be European, including two from Italy, is also undue bias. Gouda isn't vital; Parmesan is a little better, but in terms of production it lags behind Mozzarella and Cheddar in the USA, and behind Mozzarella and Grana Padano in Italy. Paneer serves as a meat substitute in South Asian cuisine in the same way that tofu does in East Asian cuisine: it plays a more significant culinary role than most European cheeses, which tend to be used more as condiments than as dietary staples.
Oppose removing Parmesan and Gouda. These types of cheese are popular. I would support a simple addition of Paneer though. PointsofNoReturn ( talk) 18:47, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Dal is also a meat substitute for vegetarians in South Asia. I'll think about this proposal a bit more. Gizza ( t)( c) 00:47, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
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The Lantern Festival is another important holiday to the Chinese. It is of similar importance as Yom Kippur to Judaism. It should be on the list as should Chinese New year.
Fair enough. Lets add an Indian holiday. Any ideas? PointsofNoReturn ( talk) 01:51, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
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The concept of language extinction is already covered in language death and endangered language. Sociolinguistics is vital: it studies how language is used in society – how and why people of different social classes, ethnicities, age, geographic location, etc. speak the same language differently. Concepts like accent, dialect, multilingualism and even language extinction are all aspects of sociolinguistics.
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Important topic in the modern world and economy, effects many people a lot who depend on it, and others who pay tax to pay for it, a vital topic for an encyclopedia that is covering government and economic topics like we are. A few other users have expressed interest in this already, but I'm unsure of it's placement, I would have thought in economics with pension, but government seems sensible too, thoughts on that? Should we have simple Welfare also/instead? they are both decent articles, but welfare state is slightly longer and in a few more languages, thoughts on that too? Carl wev 13:52, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
I think welfare is more vital than welfare state. I wouldn't mind having both but there could be a big overlap. -- V3n0M93 ( talk) 14:46, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
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The article Human intelligence is a recently hived-off article, parallel to Artificial intelligence (already in the list of 1,000 vital articles, under the technology group of topics), formerly a part of the article Intelligence. This article fits well in the psychology topics planned for the list of 10,000, and it is already on my do-list as an article to significantly expand and revise on the basis of reliable sources that I have already shared on the article talk page and have at hand for edits over the next several months. This nomination replaces a nomination of another article (similar topic, but narrower, better quality article today) I made earlier today.
Are you aware we have intelligence already or not? Sorry to play devil's advocate, how many human article's do we want, lots of topics have a non-species-specific overview article then a human one? We only have a few at moment like Human gastrointestinal tract, human body and human tooth. Why not these that are missing (but most we have the non species specific article) human brain, human heart, Human skeleton, Human penis, Human skin, Human fertilization, just to name a few, all of these seem to be written about about more around the world than human intelligence as they are in more languages than human intelligence that is only in 1 other language. I admit that the general article will always be mostly human anyway, like we have skeleton and human skeleton, but the skeleton article is mostly going to cover human skeleton anyway. Intelligence article is going to cover a lot about human intelligence too. Out of human specific articles, human brain seems one of the most significant. So which "human" articles do we include (in addition to the regular article) or exclude and why? Carl wev 09:42, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
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Covered under law of war. I don't think we need this any more than we need armistice or ceasefire or peace treaty.
Do we need surrender (military) either? Cobblet ( talk) 06:20, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
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The internal taxonomic ranks aren't vital: the fact that five of these are designated as "major" ranks is arbitrary, and people have not hesitated to make up new ranks they find convenient (e.g. Tribe (biology) or Legion (biology); even phylum was not in Linnaeus's original taxonomy). Also genus is covered by binomial nomenclature, added above.
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Pretty low down the scale compared to other fruit and vegetables. There is talk of reducing organisms and this one looks weak, compared to other plants/fruit/veg on the list and some not on the list. Article says they are a staple of Mexican cuisine, but we didn't want to add Mexican cuisine itself. Other plants and organisms have been mentioned which are missing and seem higher importance, are olive, nutmeg, willow, Taxus baccata, Henna, Mole (animal), I think we need some removals and possibly some swaps. Carl wev 18:04, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
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Although not every individual's preference today, this must have existed in every culture of the world throughout all history since before we were even human. I believe it to be of interest to the general reader, and the more expert, only thing that covers this that I'm aware of is breast, infant and milk, which is hardly a big overlap. Several people already expressed interest in this. The article is very long and in many languages as I would expect, and probably does a much better job of explaining why it's vital than I can here in one paragraph. Carl wev 06:58, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
I also thought of diaper, and I remember someone else mentioning it as well, I think I would probably support diaper too but not not as strongly as breastfeeding, it's fairly significant. Carl wev 12:00, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
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The most important part of sex. It is the exact moment that a full human cell is formed that eventually turns into a human baby. This process is also the center piece of the abortion debate about whether or not a human cell counts as a living being. It is also top importance in wikiproject biology.
This is pretty important more so than ejaculation, I was also thinking of IVF or In vitro fertilisation, what do people think of that? Carl wev 18:55, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
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We're missing some basic physical quantities.
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Necessary components of all modern buildings, not just houses. HVAC refers to ventilation and temperature control systems in general and is essentially a subdiscipline of mechanical engineering.
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Only posh houses have pantries as separate rooms. Most people make do with cupboards and cabinets of some sort. Cabinet (furniture) was removed from Everyday life/Household items last year because it was a redirect and not enough people supported the idea of adding cabinetry. I still think it's a worthwhile addition, not just in the context of household items (although we can still put it there) but also of woodworking and the history of decorative arts.
Merriam Webster says pantry doesn't have to be a seperate room, it can be identical in meaning to cabinet. To a degree this is American versus British usage. I'm still supporting because the meaning of cabinetry is wider, I think. Whoever originally put pantry on the list may have meant food storage in general, because people usually say "keeping a pantry" and mean food storage. So food storage should probably be added. Some day. -- Melody Lavender ( talk) 11:57, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
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I think we should have articles like this, as in vessel by power, we have sail and sailing, Barge, Canoe, Caravel, Container ship, Ferry, Fishing vessel, Junk (ship), Merchant vessel, Passenger ship, Riverboat, many of which are ship by use, I think ship by power is slightly more relevant to technology, I think some of our present ships are less worthy than steamboat. We have several automobile shapes/types ( Convertible, Coupé, Hatchback, Sedan (automobile), Sports car, Sport utility vehicle, and Station wagon) most of which I think are fairly weak, and I'm thinking of suggesting removals among them, maybe, to keep balance. Carl wev 10:32, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
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This is only a car shape, and effects virtually nothing else, does not affect the power, fuel, machinery/technology/engine, speed, nor a cars usage in any way other than the position of the engine, seats and trunk. Even if my explanation is slightly inaccurate, I don't think this is a top 10,000 article. I may follow this with other car shapes later one at time, probably. Carl wev 19:27, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
Off topic, but I agree with and it's funny I was thinking of making the exact same comparison, that we aren't listing different types of houses, like terraced semi-detached and detached. Carl wev 23:25, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
Pretty much the same rational as Sedan above. Carl wev 19:27, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
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We currently list 5 rapid transit systems and 1 railway system but no highway systems, which dwarf those in size and importance. The National Highway System of the United States includes the Interstate Highway System, United States Numbered Highways, and various other roads and (according to the article) is the largest highway system in the world at 160,000 mi (260,000 km). Malerisch ( talk) 04:20, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
I'd argue that the National Highway System is very significant, considering that the Interstate Highway System is the "largest and most expensive public works project ever undertaken" ( source). Wikipedia has the cost at $425 billion. Malerisch ( talk) 16:42, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
If the article about the transcontinental railroad isn't on the vital articles list yet, it certainly outranks an article about the Interstate Highway system (which was preceded by the railroad, which helped set the locations of cities later served by highways, and was also preceded by the earlier national United States highway system). -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk, how I edit) 17:50, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
You're absolutely correct on the first and second points—these innovations aren't that significant, and size does not mean testing the limits of technology. On the other hand, I'd argue that size clearly matters in general. The Great Wall of China wouldn't be on this list if it were 200 km long instead of 20,000 km. The Akashi Kaikyō Bridge is on this list instead of the Xihoumen Bridge because it is slightly longer, and the same reasoning goes with the Three Gorges Dam instead of the Itaipu Dam. I nominated the NHS partly because it is the longest highway system in the world. China's is not. If you feel that China's expressways are vital, I'd support that as well.
I also don't think that those questions are the best way of assessing if something is a "marvel." The proper method would be finding reliable sources to back up claims, and the link I provided above as well as books like this and this do call it a marvel. For the record, China's highways are also called marvels here.
However, I'm not nominating this based on its size alone. Like I said before, the NHS has had a much more significant economic impact than any rapid transit system. ( Specifics). To me, a highway system is more important than a rapid transit system since highways connect a whole country while rapid transit only connects a city. By the way, if you still disagree, do you feel that any modern highway systems are worthy of inclusion? Malerisch ( talk) 06:32, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
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I've opened discussion and vote for human in the vital 10 (here). Brought up a couple of times before but never formally voted on. Carlwev ( talk) 04:39, 10 February 2014 (UTC)