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There is a dispute at the article for Christchurch, Dorset over whether, how, and in how much detail, the article should cover Bournemouth Airport – a major employer which was in the now defunct borough of Christchurch, but some distance outside the built-up area in a neighbouring parish. This is essentially a difference of opinion on how to handle the ambiguity around defining settlements. If you think you can help resolve this, join the discussion at Talk:Christchurch,_Dorset#Bournemouth_airport. Thanks, Joe D (t)
Given my last attempt to create a guideline on flags through an open discussion didn't work at all, I thought it might be easier to give everyone a pre-written guideline to comment on. I've written it to apply to all UK articles, but it could easily be amended to focus only on certain nations (England?). Let me know what you think:
Subnational geographic flags
The counties, principal areas, council areas, and other subnational regions of the United Kingdom use a variety of flags. In many areas, semi-official flags are in popular use; some of these have long histories, but the majority have been designed since 2000. These flags, particularly the historic county flags registered with the charity the Flag Institute, have since 2010 received some recognition from the British Government. For example, they do not need planning consent to be flown in England, and the British Government has marked Historic County Flag Day. Nevertheless, the exact status of these flags can be unclear.
The following guidelines are designed to address this uncertainty by standardising how Wikipedia editors handle the flags. In particular, they aim to avoid giving undue prominence to flags which may not be in widespread use, and to properly contextualise the history of a flag and the area it covers. The guidelines apply to any subnational geographic flag in United Kingdom, including the flags of counties, districts, settlements, and other regions.
Before creating an article for a subnational geographic flag, or including such a flag in the article about the area it represents, the following should be taken into consideration:
- To whom it belongs. In particular, flags based on the coat of arms of a council are usually the property of and represent that council, not the area it governs.
- Whether the physical flag is widely used, or if it primarily exists in an online database such as the Flag Institute’s Flag Registry. Flags which have an exclusively or primarily online existence are not typically as notable as those which are in physical use, and may not meet the threshold for inclusion in the encyclopedia.
- The area the flag represents. For example, if a flag was designed to represent an historic county, rather than its contemporary equivalent, then this should be explicitly noted. This is the case even if the flag was designed after the historic county was superseded for ceremonial or local government purposes.
When placing a flag in the article about the area it represents, the following should additionally be taken into consideration:
- Where in an article to place the flag. The article body is preferable to the infobox, as it allows for a fuller explanation of the flag, its context, and history. In particular, a flag should not be placed in the infobox if it represents a different area to that which the infobox covers.
- When placed in the article body, place the flag image close to text explaining (where known) when it was designed, the area it represents, and when and where it is flown. If the flag has its own article this section can be a shorter summary with a link to said article.
A.D.Hope ( talk) 10:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
Subnational geographic flags
The counties, principal areas, council areas, and other subnational regions of the United Kingdom use a variety of flags. However, the exact status of these flags can be unclear. The following guidelines are designed to address this uncertainty by standardising how Wikipedia editors handle the flags.
Before creating an article for a subnational geographic flag, or including such a flag in the article about the area it represents, consider whether the physical flag is in actual use. Flags which only exist online, or which have only limited physical use, may not meet the threshold for inclusion in the encyclopedia. Also, check who the flag belongs to; flags based on the coat of arms of a council are usually the property of and represent that council, not the area it governs.
When it is decided to include a flag on Wikipedia, try to include the following information in the article about it and/or in the body of the article about the area it represents:
- The history of the flag. For old flags, this may include details of its first recorded use and similar information. For new flags, this is likely to include details of how it was designed, for example by public competition.
- Where the flag is flown, whether inside or outside the area it represents.
- The occasions on which it is flown, for example on county days or at sports matches.
Avoid making explicit statements about the area a flag represents if this is unclear. For example, a flag may have been designed to represent an historic county but be flown from the offices of the council representing the modern county. We can leave the meaning of this ambiguous if sources do not provide clarity.
When choosing where to place a flag in the article about the area it represents, the article body is preferable to the infobox as it allows for a fuller explanation of the flag, its use, and history. In particular, a flag should not be placed in the infobox unless it unambiguously represents the same area as the infobox.
A.D.Hope ( talk) 17:25, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Please start the discussion below this heading. A.D.Hope ( talk) 10:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
@ Stortford, @ Stevie fae Scotland, @ Steinsky, @ Sirfurboy, @ Eopsid, @ Thryduulf, and @ G-13114, I've written a second draft of the guideline based on your feedback. If you (or anyone else) have further suggestions or critiques I'd be very happy to hear them. Thanks, A.D.Hope ( talk) 17:29, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
flags based on the coat of arms of a council are usually the property of and represent that council, not the area it governs.I'm sure there is at least one case of a council explicitly granting permission to use the flag based on their arms to represent its area and (but I'm less certain of this) there are cases when such a flag is used to represent the council's area with no official comment from the council (so probably de facto rather than de jure representation of the area).
In particular, a flag should not be placed in the infobox unless it unambiguously represents the same area as the infobox.I disagree with this. If a flag is commonly used to represent an area with that name it should be in the infobox unless it unambiguously does not refer to that area. e.g. if the flag of Fooshire is in common use but it is ambiguous whether it represents the area of the ceremonial or administrative county by that name then it should be included in both infoboxes. In the real world many (maybe most) people flying the flag will not know (and fewer will care about) the difference between two - if you asked someone flying it which area they using it to represent you'd get blank looks and answers like "yes" or "both". Thryduulf ( talk) 11:08, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
There is Queenborough-in-Sheppey/ Isle of Sheppey and Thanet District/ Isle of Thanet and it seems that the districts cover/covered the same area as the islands so should probably be merged per User:Seav/Islands and administrative units similar to Isle of Portland that appears to be the same as the Portland parish (and former district) or the Isles of Scilly which also covers the unitary district. While I'm in favour of having separate articles for the likes of Cotswolds and Cotswold District which cover different areas and Wokingham (town and parish) and Borough of Wokingham (district) and Darlington (town and unparished area) and Borough of Darlington (district) of which the town and unparished area have a large percentage of the district yet are clearly different things and most other similar places around the world appear more often than not split, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/Archive 35#Policy clarifications: Lead sentences, unparished areas, and districts / settlements with the same name. See User:Seav/Islands and administrative units that supports this and my essay Wikipedia:Separate articles for administrative divisions to settlements.
For Queenborough-in-Sheppey the district and parish appear to cover the island however it does cover Deadman's Island but the likes of Madagascar have other islands. The unparished area also covered the island but most has now been parished but we have to be careful how we explain unparished areas due to their limited recognition so I would not say that the "Queenborough-in-Sheppey" now only covers a small part of the island. The district/parish article could be merged with Isle of Sheppey#Local government
For Thanet District although the district was newly created in 1974 it appears its the same as the Isle of Thanet per my A-Z Kent though its not completely clear. Unlike the problems with describing Wivenhoe as being in Colchester City Council which could easily happen if we had an article on the council instead of district it does seem like in the case of Thanet they are the same area of land so places could just be described as being in Thanet or Isle of Thanet without much complication since unlike Colchester they are the same area. As such per WP:UKDISTRICTS we can restore Thanet District Council that I merged a few years ago. A merger of the district to the island was mentioned at Talk:Thanet District in 2018, see Talk:Thanet District#Requested move 18 September 2018. At Talk:Thanet District#Outline of proposed changes to the article (and the 2 sections above) it seems that others have already suggested that the articles should be merged and also discussion at Talk:Isle of Thanet where it is claimed that the district is larger and includes land that was underwater at the time the Isle of Thanet was an island.
Thoughts on this? @ Amakuru, DragonofBatley, Eopsid, Morwen, JMF, Snowded, and Stortford: Crouch, Swale ( talk) 20:38, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
There are two parishes called "Brompton" in North Yorkshire. Their articles were previously named
Brompton, Hambleton and
Brompton, Scarborough, following
WP:ENGLANDPLACE which says "When further disambiguation is required, districts should be used.
" in cases where [[placename, ceremonial county]] does not disambiguate.
But the districts no longer exist.
WP:ENGLANDPLACE says "If there are multiple places of the same name within the same district, then parishes, wards, or lowercase compass directions should be used as appropriate to identify the relative locations.
", with example
Woolston, north Shropshire. Presumably this should also apply where there are multiple places of the same name within a UA.
These two were previously moved to Brompton, west North Yorkshire and Brompton, east North Yorkshire, complying with that instruction. This seems correct although odd-looking.
They have now been moved to Brompton, Northallerton and Brompton, Scarborough, North Yorkshire.
While looking into this I noticed that we also have Hambleton, Ryedale and Hambleton, Selby, two more North Yorkshire places disambiguated by defunct districts, and there may be many more, so this is a wider question than just the Bromptons.
What is our preferred way to disambiguate these places? Compass point in UA, or defunct (but still recognisable) district, or current electoral unit ( Northallerton North and Brompton and Derwent Valley & Moor respectively according to Mapit - the latter is pretty meaningless as there are Derwent valleys up and down the country!), or a nearby town? Does WP:ENGLANDPLACE need any clarification or update to cover UAs?
@ Chocolateediter and DragonofBatley:, the page movers, for info. Pam D 07:44, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Letchworth#Requested move 6 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. JuniperChill ( talk) 17:11, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
WikiProject UK geography page. |
|
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3,
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17,
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19,
20,
21,
22,
23,
24,
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26,
27,
28,
29,
30,
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33,
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41Auto-archiving period: 30 days
![]() |
![]() | ||
---|---|---|
Redirects for discussion
Files for discussion
Good article nominees Featured article reviews
Requested moves
Articles to be merged
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| ||
Wellesbourne, Brighton (2024-07-01) • Rosal, Sutherland (2024-05-25) • Newlyn Tidal Observatory (2023-11-20) • Godalming (2023-09-20) • Reigate (2023-09-10) Reached maximum of 5 out of 307
Liverpool Maritime Mercantile City (2021-07-22) • 2009 Great Britain and Ireland floods (2009-11-21) • February 2009 British Isles snowfall (2009-02-06) Coventry ring road (2023-07-23) • Combe Hill, East Sussex (2023-01-11) • Brownhills (2022-03-03) • Abberton Reservoir (2021-09-05) • Shaw and Crompton (2021-08-15) Reached maximum of 5 out of 71 List of scheduled monuments in South Somerset (2023-12-22) • List of castles in Greater Manchester (2023-04-07) • List of Shetland islands (2022-05-20) • List of freshwater islands in Scotland (2020-04-24) • List of scheduled monuments in Taunton Deane (2018-10-26) Reached maximum of 5 out of 7 | ||
| ||
There is a dispute at the article for Christchurch, Dorset over whether, how, and in how much detail, the article should cover Bournemouth Airport – a major employer which was in the now defunct borough of Christchurch, but some distance outside the built-up area in a neighbouring parish. This is essentially a difference of opinion on how to handle the ambiguity around defining settlements. If you think you can help resolve this, join the discussion at Talk:Christchurch,_Dorset#Bournemouth_airport. Thanks, Joe D (t)
Given my last attempt to create a guideline on flags through an open discussion didn't work at all, I thought it might be easier to give everyone a pre-written guideline to comment on. I've written it to apply to all UK articles, but it could easily be amended to focus only on certain nations (England?). Let me know what you think:
Subnational geographic flags
The counties, principal areas, council areas, and other subnational regions of the United Kingdom use a variety of flags. In many areas, semi-official flags are in popular use; some of these have long histories, but the majority have been designed since 2000. These flags, particularly the historic county flags registered with the charity the Flag Institute, have since 2010 received some recognition from the British Government. For example, they do not need planning consent to be flown in England, and the British Government has marked Historic County Flag Day. Nevertheless, the exact status of these flags can be unclear.
The following guidelines are designed to address this uncertainty by standardising how Wikipedia editors handle the flags. In particular, they aim to avoid giving undue prominence to flags which may not be in widespread use, and to properly contextualise the history of a flag and the area it covers. The guidelines apply to any subnational geographic flag in United Kingdom, including the flags of counties, districts, settlements, and other regions.
Before creating an article for a subnational geographic flag, or including such a flag in the article about the area it represents, the following should be taken into consideration:
- To whom it belongs. In particular, flags based on the coat of arms of a council are usually the property of and represent that council, not the area it governs.
- Whether the physical flag is widely used, or if it primarily exists in an online database such as the Flag Institute’s Flag Registry. Flags which have an exclusively or primarily online existence are not typically as notable as those which are in physical use, and may not meet the threshold for inclusion in the encyclopedia.
- The area the flag represents. For example, if a flag was designed to represent an historic county, rather than its contemporary equivalent, then this should be explicitly noted. This is the case even if the flag was designed after the historic county was superseded for ceremonial or local government purposes.
When placing a flag in the article about the area it represents, the following should additionally be taken into consideration:
- Where in an article to place the flag. The article body is preferable to the infobox, as it allows for a fuller explanation of the flag, its context, and history. In particular, a flag should not be placed in the infobox if it represents a different area to that which the infobox covers.
- When placed in the article body, place the flag image close to text explaining (where known) when it was designed, the area it represents, and when and where it is flown. If the flag has its own article this section can be a shorter summary with a link to said article.
A.D.Hope ( talk) 10:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
Subnational geographic flags
The counties, principal areas, council areas, and other subnational regions of the United Kingdom use a variety of flags. However, the exact status of these flags can be unclear. The following guidelines are designed to address this uncertainty by standardising how Wikipedia editors handle the flags.
Before creating an article for a subnational geographic flag, or including such a flag in the article about the area it represents, consider whether the physical flag is in actual use. Flags which only exist online, or which have only limited physical use, may not meet the threshold for inclusion in the encyclopedia. Also, check who the flag belongs to; flags based on the coat of arms of a council are usually the property of and represent that council, not the area it governs.
When it is decided to include a flag on Wikipedia, try to include the following information in the article about it and/or in the body of the article about the area it represents:
- The history of the flag. For old flags, this may include details of its first recorded use and similar information. For new flags, this is likely to include details of how it was designed, for example by public competition.
- Where the flag is flown, whether inside or outside the area it represents.
- The occasions on which it is flown, for example on county days or at sports matches.
Avoid making explicit statements about the area a flag represents if this is unclear. For example, a flag may have been designed to represent an historic county but be flown from the offices of the council representing the modern county. We can leave the meaning of this ambiguous if sources do not provide clarity.
When choosing where to place a flag in the article about the area it represents, the article body is preferable to the infobox as it allows for a fuller explanation of the flag, its use, and history. In particular, a flag should not be placed in the infobox unless it unambiguously represents the same area as the infobox.
A.D.Hope ( talk) 17:25, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Please start the discussion below this heading. A.D.Hope ( talk) 10:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
@ Stortford, @ Stevie fae Scotland, @ Steinsky, @ Sirfurboy, @ Eopsid, @ Thryduulf, and @ G-13114, I've written a second draft of the guideline based on your feedback. If you (or anyone else) have further suggestions or critiques I'd be very happy to hear them. Thanks, A.D.Hope ( talk) 17:29, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
flags based on the coat of arms of a council are usually the property of and represent that council, not the area it governs.I'm sure there is at least one case of a council explicitly granting permission to use the flag based on their arms to represent its area and (but I'm less certain of this) there are cases when such a flag is used to represent the council's area with no official comment from the council (so probably de facto rather than de jure representation of the area).
In particular, a flag should not be placed in the infobox unless it unambiguously represents the same area as the infobox.I disagree with this. If a flag is commonly used to represent an area with that name it should be in the infobox unless it unambiguously does not refer to that area. e.g. if the flag of Fooshire is in common use but it is ambiguous whether it represents the area of the ceremonial or administrative county by that name then it should be included in both infoboxes. In the real world many (maybe most) people flying the flag will not know (and fewer will care about) the difference between two - if you asked someone flying it which area they using it to represent you'd get blank looks and answers like "yes" or "both". Thryduulf ( talk) 11:08, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
There is Queenborough-in-Sheppey/ Isle of Sheppey and Thanet District/ Isle of Thanet and it seems that the districts cover/covered the same area as the islands so should probably be merged per User:Seav/Islands and administrative units similar to Isle of Portland that appears to be the same as the Portland parish (and former district) or the Isles of Scilly which also covers the unitary district. While I'm in favour of having separate articles for the likes of Cotswolds and Cotswold District which cover different areas and Wokingham (town and parish) and Borough of Wokingham (district) and Darlington (town and unparished area) and Borough of Darlington (district) of which the town and unparished area have a large percentage of the district yet are clearly different things and most other similar places around the world appear more often than not split, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/Archive 35#Policy clarifications: Lead sentences, unparished areas, and districts / settlements with the same name. See User:Seav/Islands and administrative units that supports this and my essay Wikipedia:Separate articles for administrative divisions to settlements.
For Queenborough-in-Sheppey the district and parish appear to cover the island however it does cover Deadman's Island but the likes of Madagascar have other islands. The unparished area also covered the island but most has now been parished but we have to be careful how we explain unparished areas due to their limited recognition so I would not say that the "Queenborough-in-Sheppey" now only covers a small part of the island. The district/parish article could be merged with Isle of Sheppey#Local government
For Thanet District although the district was newly created in 1974 it appears its the same as the Isle of Thanet per my A-Z Kent though its not completely clear. Unlike the problems with describing Wivenhoe as being in Colchester City Council which could easily happen if we had an article on the council instead of district it does seem like in the case of Thanet they are the same area of land so places could just be described as being in Thanet or Isle of Thanet without much complication since unlike Colchester they are the same area. As such per WP:UKDISTRICTS we can restore Thanet District Council that I merged a few years ago. A merger of the district to the island was mentioned at Talk:Thanet District in 2018, see Talk:Thanet District#Requested move 18 September 2018. At Talk:Thanet District#Outline of proposed changes to the article (and the 2 sections above) it seems that others have already suggested that the articles should be merged and also discussion at Talk:Isle of Thanet where it is claimed that the district is larger and includes land that was underwater at the time the Isle of Thanet was an island.
Thoughts on this? @ Amakuru, DragonofBatley, Eopsid, Morwen, JMF, Snowded, and Stortford: Crouch, Swale ( talk) 20:38, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
There are two parishes called "Brompton" in North Yorkshire. Their articles were previously named
Brompton, Hambleton and
Brompton, Scarborough, following
WP:ENGLANDPLACE which says "When further disambiguation is required, districts should be used.
" in cases where [[placename, ceremonial county]] does not disambiguate.
But the districts no longer exist.
WP:ENGLANDPLACE says "If there are multiple places of the same name within the same district, then parishes, wards, or lowercase compass directions should be used as appropriate to identify the relative locations.
", with example
Woolston, north Shropshire. Presumably this should also apply where there are multiple places of the same name within a UA.
These two were previously moved to Brompton, west North Yorkshire and Brompton, east North Yorkshire, complying with that instruction. This seems correct although odd-looking.
They have now been moved to Brompton, Northallerton and Brompton, Scarborough, North Yorkshire.
While looking into this I noticed that we also have Hambleton, Ryedale and Hambleton, Selby, two more North Yorkshire places disambiguated by defunct districts, and there may be many more, so this is a wider question than just the Bromptons.
What is our preferred way to disambiguate these places? Compass point in UA, or defunct (but still recognisable) district, or current electoral unit ( Northallerton North and Brompton and Derwent Valley & Moor respectively according to Mapit - the latter is pretty meaningless as there are Derwent valleys up and down the country!), or a nearby town? Does WP:ENGLANDPLACE need any clarification or update to cover UAs?
@ Chocolateediter and DragonofBatley:, the page movers, for info. Pam D 07:44, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Letchworth#Requested move 6 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. JuniperChill ( talk) 17:11, 6 July 2024 (UTC)