Does anyone object to moving the internal spamming part to a separate page? I notice that even somewhat experienced editors running for admin are unaware of the guidelines, part of the reason might be that it's tucked in amids the lengthy discussion on external spamming. They're also targeting very different audiences, so a WP:SPAM link in an AfD discussion might be ambiguous: It could mean that the article itself contains spam links or that a discussion participant engaged in canvassing. In short I see few reasons to keep them together but quite a couple to separate them. Comments? ~ trialsanderrors 21:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Excellent, excellent. I am strongly in favor, I previously started Wikipedia:Canvassing and wanted consensus for splitting it off from here, see thread above titled "Factor canvassing"; unfortunately there was only 1 pro and 1 con opinion so no consensus to do anything was reached. External link spamming and canvassing are two separate concepts, the latter of which is sometimes (erroneously, IMO) also called "spamming", but that's a job for disambiguation, not putting them all on one page. It really deserves its own page as a guideline/policy, also for visibility. Thanks Trialsanderrors. — Quarl ( talk) 2006-12-31 02:27Z
By the way, I now realize that there is a slight nuance between "canvassing" and "internal spamming": the usual problem is the former, while the latter can also include for example telling lots of users about how great an article is -- something that isn't trying to influence a debate. I don't think it's nearly as much a problem as canvassing but it might deserve a paragraph still within the WP:SPAM guideline after Canvassing is officially split off. — Quarl ( talk) 2006-12-31 09:09Z
See Wikipedia talk:Canvassing#Reset.
There appears to already be consensus that this guideline should be split (and I'll add my strong support). But, we now have a large section of duplicated text, with both copies marked as official, and almost certain to diverge in content fairly rapidly. Not good.
My suggestion is that we need to either degrade the status of Wikipedia:Canvassing back to a proposed guideline, or replace the cut-and-pasted section in this guideline with a nutshell summary and a wikilink to the new guideline at Wikipedia:Canvassing. Other thoughts? Andrewa 00:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
From Wikipedia talk:Canvassing#Reset:
So, can we now replace this section by a wikilink, and work on a nutshell summary to go there too? Andrewa 02:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Take a look: http://www.lockergnome.com/nexus/search/2006/04/10/how-to-link-spam-wikipedia/ Be careful... -- 75.17.60.209 23:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
It is suggested on the talk page of Wikipedia:WikiProject External links, to merge that project with Wikipedia:WikiProject Spam, with the impression that the External links project is actually inactive, and the Spam project, as an active project, can handle its tasks to. I would like to know your points of view in this regard. - huji— TALK 20:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Couldn't this be used to reduce the problem of external link spamming with bots. Just require users that isn't logged in to enter a imagecode if thay have added an external link.
This private school in Switzerland has been spamming Wikipedia by putting on the first line of famous philosophers and artists: "teach at the EGS", and also by uploading photos taken by User:Europeangraduateschool (I believe such names do not respect policies). Maybe someone would like to want to check what's going on there... A Google search on "European Graduate School" 's occurences on Wikipedia gives, as of January 2007, more than 80 occurences. See Talk:European Graduate School and contributions from very few users (you might notice that the EGS entry is in many languages, including Chinese, and were all created by Wikipedia:Single purpose account. Lapaz 02:34, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
This user Jenny44 keeps reverting my reverts to what I think is spam. She keeps putting a link to a screensaver on the waterfall article. I tell her that Wikipedia shouldn't be used for promotional material and she says that the link isn't promotional and that its free. Is this still spam? She keeps putting back the link after I remove it...
User:Jason ilacqua has been adding commentary/blog links to a multitude of sports articles. Google the name and you will find him to be the senior editor of the site in question. I removed some, but he has been busy. ccwaters 17:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
...that this is a "prime spam target". Of the external-to-WMF external links, all three of them use interwiki mappings and any real SPAM would be extremely easy to see. I also note that prior to this protection most reverted edits were either: Simple or silly vandalisms, or, edit warring over the now-moved "Canvassing" section. 68.39.174.238 23:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Is there a guideline for whether articles on radio stations should contain details of the wavelength? I am thinking that this may be a form of advertising, a little like giving the address of a corporation, but it seems quite prevalent. Any suggestions where I might look? Abtract 18:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
The Men from the Ministère will be requiring that commercial spammers toe the line and refrain from posing as a consumer in sockpuppetry and fake bloggery stunts http://www.smartmobs.com/archive/2007/02/11/eu_makes_sock_p....html#comments
Bwithh Join Up! See the World! 21:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Should I add a paragraph about spambots to the page, or should this be a separate article?? This is because of the Wikipedia talk:Spam/Archive 2/ (as an example, this using the {{PAGENAME}} variable to display it here) created by spambots, that are happening frequently.
On the Cornish Wiktionary, where I'm an admin (the only one), I've had to delete-protect spambot pages created. I'm in the process of writing guidelines there about spamming.
Advice is appreciated - I'm unsure about making changes to policy pages without consensus. -- sunstar net talk 11:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure this wouldn't have any effect, but check out this edit to a redirect last November... -- nae' blis 03:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I recently added two external links to Wikipedia, and then received three messages on my talk page (from the same user) about spam. I read the Guideline on Spam he/she linked for me, and this part is worrying me:
"Subsequent offences can be tagged with {{spam2}} or {{spam2a}}, then {{spam3}} (warning of possible block) and {{spam4}} (final warning). The template {{spam5}} indicates that the spammer has been blocked."
The templates used on my talk page were Welcomespam, Spam and Spam2. Should I have gotten three tags, or only two since there were two links, or only one since I added both links basically at the same time? Does this mean that I am now only three links away from being blocked? Playing the devil's advocate here, is it possible to get another user blocked simply by filling their talk page with spam templates? (mwahahaha) Is there a way to get the tags removed?
Does anyone else hear that Violent Femmes song in their heads ... "I hope you know that this will go down on your permanent record" ...? Yeah. It's probably just me. Fauxpaw 22:01, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I've seen publisher's book sites included in articles in many different ways, and always consider them linkspam because they are promotional in nature. However, in Wikinomics (book) I saw for the first time that an official site was included for the book in the External links section. I removed it, but with reluctance. It seems to be more just a way to get a promotional link into an article, rather than provide readers with useful additional information on the subject of the article. Given that more and more book sites, especially technical books, contain large amounts of useful information, it might be useful to clarify how to treat official book site links. (Related discussions: [5], [6]) -- Ronz 23:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
There have recently been edits to WP:COI changing the spam wording from always avoid linking to your own site to avoid or exercise great caution when linking to your own site. Additional opinions would be appreciated. -- Milo H Minderbinder 12:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
On 26 February, User:Stevertigo added the following as a fourth type of spam:
Perhaps it's just me, but I don't understand exactly what "bandspam" is, and, more importantly, see absolutely no discussion on this page about the change. Moreover, adding a fourth type breaks the relationship between types (four) and sections describing the spam in more detail (only three).
So I've reverted the change. An explanation of this addition to the guideline, here, would be appreciated. An example would be even more appreciated. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 00:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Bandspam is my term for the usage of links which appear to be promotional rather than informational. For example, if someone put a hatnote WP:HN on the God article: God Part II is also song by U2, that would be bandspam. Its an egregious example because
Hence my term "bandspam" addresses the trivial nature such links, which may or may not be music related. We could imagine cases where Pokemon or video games might tried to be linked from the top of other non-trivial articles. Of course most major articles wont be subject to this problem because there is often more than two terms to disambiguate, but Ive seen the problem come up enough to make a minor issue of it.
The solution to this (accepted and promoted on wikien) is simply to always use an {{otheruses}} tag, or some variant if the article name is not the same as the disambiguation. The argument against the removal of such notes appears to be promotional, or else it claims that disambiguation should only apply in cases where more than two different articles exist. I disagree, and apparently so do most of our policy wonks at wikien. "Always use the otheruses/disambig method" seems to be common enough to be a rule.
Ive never bothered to remake policy to reflect this view, and Ive for the most part only made it a personal policy to remove such bandspam or hatnotes or hatspam - whatever we want to call it - inappropriate or 'unencyclopedic disambiguation'. There are of course exceptions, and
halo is one - where the game is claimed to be the more prominent search and therefore the article should link directly to the game. (Note: Halo now is a disambiguation rather than the article about the optical phenomenon with the video game and otheruses links at top)
I might agree with such usage in a small number of cases, as long as the general understanding is that the disambig page method is almost always preferred. -
Ste
vertigo
07:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
If the problem occurs with misuse of the hatnote, which is a disambiguation function, why put anything in the policy on spam? To me, and I think to others, the spam policy deals with high-volume postings. As an analogy, posting a single link to an advertising site, while typically reverted with an edit summary of "linkspam", is a violation of WP:EL, not of this policy. In other words, if someone saw a hatnote misused, I don't think they'd think to look at WP:SPAM for guidance, they'd look to Wikipedia:Disambiguation or Wikipedia:Hatnotes (if they knew what a "hatnote" was).
Also, as noted in the section on Spambots, above, it's not really necessary that a policy discuss each and every problem. If in fact editors are arguing over the misuse of hatnotes and similar "bandspam", then, yes, some policy should probably be changed to clarify this. Is this issue really being disputed? -- John Broughton (♫♫) 12:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm currently involved in a polite disagreement over at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam#DermAtlas, and I'd welcome feedback from this community.-- Hu12 02:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
this site: [www.filmfocus.nl] , is listed as spam and I am not allowed to use it as a reference. It is obviously not a spam site, but a serious site about what's happening in film in the Netherlands. I need to use an article there for a reference in an article here about European films/ What am I supposed to do? Jeffpw 13:42, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Though what follows flows from some particular issues I have encountered, I mean this as a more general inquiry, with what answers emerge of use, one hopes, to all. That is, while I present a very particular (and actual) case, I am not posting to argue that case or garner support for my position but because I feel it is quite representative of a large, general class of problem that should get some attention. The particularity is thus simply to have a clear, definite example for discussion.
Case 1: There exists a web site devoted to growing vegetables in the home garden. It seems to have a novel aspect, in that it focuses on the particular vegetable varieties that are reported to be the most flavorsome, a concern of much mores importance to home growers than to commercial growers. The site contains a number of pages, one per vegetable considered, each presenting a discussion about cultivar (variety) selection followed by usually extensive growing instructions plus some basic botany and history of that vegetable.
The individual vegetable pages each have a small text Adsense block on them. The block is small both absolutely and relative to the page length, and is not intrusive (matched background colors). The site also has an associated Amazon bookstore dealing only in books on vegetables. This appears only in the full site directory (which is shown on each page); there are no free-floating ads for it on the pages.
If it is proposed to add to the Wikipedia article on a given vegetable an External Link to the corresponding page of this site, what are the issues? WP:EL plainly says that what should be linked includes Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to . . . amount of detail . . . . The existing WP articles vary in their degree of detail, but though some mention cultivation they do not--and cannot, owing to length--include much detail.
The WP:EL lists 13 reasons why a given link should not be included. None seem to apply. The information provides a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article; it does not mislead the reader by use of factually inaccurate material; it does not require payment or registration; it does not only work with a specific browser; it does not require external applications . . . to view the relevant content; it is not search engine [or] aggregated results pages; it is not a social networking site; it is not an open wiki; and it is directly related to the subject of the article.
That leaves these possible objections: is the link mainly intended to promote a website? Does the site primarily exist to sell products or services? Does the site have objectionable amounts of advertising?
The web site itself is not that of a commercial service; the only thing it itself sells is Amazon books through a related but not integral bookshop (meaning that there are not ads for the bookshop all over the pages). The pages each have a small-type, relatively unobtrusive adsense text block. The pages are of some length and are informational and instructional.
Is that a reasonable link? Note that the question is not on whether it is a good link--if the link qua link is not of good quality, it will disappear in time and good riddance. The question is whether, on the facts as presented, it is automatically debarred.
Now Case #2: the same facts as in Case #1 above, except that the link poster maintains the site. This case presumes that the poster puts a note on the Talk page that discloses the relation.
WP:COI seems not to be much on point here, WP:EL seeming to be the governing policy set, inasmuch as there are no points of view involved.
I, for the life of me, cannot see why such a link would be considered automatically debarred from being a WP EL. Obviously, someone with questions as to how much and how blatant any advertising copy (though I daresay everyone knows what Adsense text looks like) would need to visit the page and see whether the page is "primarily" (or even largely) an advertising medium. But surely it cannot be that the mere presence of any ad whatever of any kind or size on a page automatically debars it from linkworthiness--else a large fraction of long-standing extant links of quality would have to be vanished.
Is that a reasonable view?
Let me say that there seems--to me, anyway--to be a general problem with External Links, with a few Wikipedians taking on what seems to me authority beyond what published WP policy states in deciding what will or will not be allowed to appear.
Now there is certainly a problem with spam, including link spam. But there is a reasonable reaction and there is an unreasonable reaction. A reasonable reaction will be founded in the policies set forth with some clarity in WP:EL. At the other extreme will be some self-appointed Guardian of Purity who simply deletes all new external links with the remark "Wikipedia is not a link farm". (That is not an exaggeration: I have seen it.) It is true that Wikipedia is not dmoz; but neither can it completely fulfill its task if it disdains all other sites. So what's needed is a simple way of deciding whether a given link augments the article, and that way is WP:EL, not someone's personal tastes.
The real problem is that there seems no simple way of handling those mavericks who feel that they are On a Mission From God. Endless rounds on the Talk page with most everyone on one side and the maverick alone on the other get nowhere. Yes, that is an extreme case, but there are many others less severe but still problematic.
Obviously, everyone, including me, will disagree with the person who alters or reverts an edit. But when some people's Talk pages are just long laundry lists of plaints about draconian reverts, the perceptive will see a clue. There is, of course, a grey area between the diligent pruner and the zealot. But usually a review of the posted complaints will be revealing: they will invariably include some number of semi-literate objurgations from actual spammers whining about their business site or whatever; but the clue will be the presence of a nontrivial number of different persons each presenting an obviously reasonable case that is not met with reasoned argument but with repetition of some favorite mantra about spam and spammers.
The one poor devil who seems always to get lost in conflicts on this matter is the user--the person who comes to Wikipedia looking for information on some subject. No WP article can cover, at great depth, everything there is to know about a subject, else WP would be the only site needed on the whole web. Obviously, WP itself has related articles for many topics, but even ensemble those cannot duplicate the sum of all information available elsewhere. That is why the very category External Links exists. But too often, WP editing, of external links and much else, seems to be more a tilting ground for 24/7 Wikipedians to joust in power games than to bear much connection to what one would think is the bedrock issue: the utility of Wikipedia to visitors. ("The perfect bureaucracy administers nothing but itself.")
The point is not whether this or that argument should be settled this or that way: the point is that there seems no clear mechanism for resolving these issues at a relatively low level, and few want to go on to higher levels. That is especially true when the would-be link poster is not a 24/7 Wikipedian, but simply a passing visitor with an idea.
Thoughts?
Eric Walker 10:18, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Mmmm a suggestion (about the newer links anyway. If an editor asks you about them, that means it might be a good idea to ask about the potential usefulness of them on the article's talk page. That would be a better place then discussing it here. I really don't have an opinion in this matter yet though. —— Eagle101 Need help? 01:04, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Just fyi: Somebody took it upon themselves to delete all the dozen or so links I'd put on Wiki to my site, citing spam policy. Here's the problem: I've got a podcast in which I interview, at length, without ads, people who are interesting. Many of them have entries on Wiki. I'm not adding an entry for somebody who doesn't have one and then adding external links. On an existing page I'm linking to a long interview -- for example, with a retired three star USMC general, or with a leading international anti-nuclear activist, or with a former UK cabinet minister -- with a person about whom there's no disagreement re their Wiki status. By definition, if that person gives an hour interview (and I repeat, no ads) -- the kind of interview that simply cannot be found elsewhere -- then that interview should be of interest also. These are one-line external links, saying essentially 'audio interview, name of site, date of interview, and length of interview.' What's wrong with that?
I understand the self-promotion questions, and the neutrality questions. But I have a neutrality question of my own: Can a person with a political axe to grind get rid of a batch of links under cover of 'spam policy'? With a fall-back, nonsense argument that no reputable sources have cited my site? (Citations for such external links as I've described should be irrelevant).
To be honest, the traffic from Wiki to my site is de minimis and I don't intend to try to work through this in a conflict resolution fashion. I merely pose the problem here, as it seems the abuse originates from an over-zealous application of an unclear policy. -- Georgekenney 04:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Georgekenney ( talk • contribs) 04:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC).
You are indeed the individual I referred to. By "attempted to work with the user" do you mean "just delete all the links without any explanation?"-- Georgekenney 04:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
If you'd read what I wrote above you'd have seen I had read that. Have you decided to edit out its reference to "exceptions"? Go figure... My objection to this discussion is that it seems an all too convenient cover for political objections to my site -- perhaps I'm mistaken and if so, I'd be delighted to be corrected.-- Georgekenney 05:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
As a self-professed "cold warrior" who seems to delight in warmaking (a cursory glance at your profile tells me that), I am skeptical about your claims to neutrality.-- Georgekenney 05:14, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to be clear: what in your mind constitutes a "response"? Something within two or three minutes?! I did respond, today, as you well know. So please don't misrepresent events!-- Georgekenney 05:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Eagle. I'm sorry but I don't have time to find somebody else to do these links for me. (Unless you want to do that yourself :) I'm a one-person shop, I produce a show once a week, it's high quality, and it takes a lot of time. If I don't fall within your understanding of Wiki guidelines, so be it. But I reiterate: the individual who deleted these links seems to me to have acted in an arbitrary, malicious fashion based on some antagonistic political ideology. Which is why I posted the above comment in the first place -- not to hash the issue out, which I honestly am not interested in doing -- but to alert other Wiki users that a potential for abuse exists within the vague nature of external link guidelines.-- Georgekenney 05:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, these policies and guidelines are not clear, I think. Anyhow, I sent a note, to start, to Helen Caldicott and if her anti-nuclear organization wants to ask her Wiki page editor(s) why they consider a link to an audio interview with her spam, then you'll have a chance to restore the link. Further, you haven't understood my point: I'm doing you a favor with the links. Not the other way around. I'm not so hot to have the links restored. What I'm saying is, you've perhaps got an anti-spam junior editor who's substituting his political opinions for good judgment about spam. THAT'S the problem you need to deal with.-- Georgekenney 06:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I defy you to find another hour-long interview with a former director of the NSA. There is nothing else like this out there. Before throwing my description of my site back in my face, why don't you actually look at the substance of what's being discussed? I would observe that several admins have joined this discussion without actually reading my posts, or familiarizing themselves in any way with the site involved. What I see is a knee-jerk reaction supporting an indefensible intellectual position.
It seems to me abundantly clear that a master sergeant in the US Air Force, currently serving if his Wiki bio is up-to-date, has no business doing wholesale deletions of audio links to an anti-war website -- particularly not when those interviews include, separately, two retired three star generals, three retired Ambassadors, two senior (serving) UN officials, two retired senior CIA analysts, one former UK cabinet minister (still an MP), one winner of the alternative Nobel Peace Prize, and a couple others. In terms of content having the external links is a no-brainer: Only a right-wing political zealot would attempt to delete them all under the guise of "spam guidelines".
I would note that I am not the only source of links to these interviews. Your spam master sergeant deleted others, not created by me, which have been up for more than a year. What's the excuse there?
To my mind this episode underscores flaws with the Wikipedia project: my view of Wikipedia has overnight gone from a "9.5" to a "4". I very much doubt whether I'll do any further linking here from my site, which I used to do routinely. And I'll advise those I talk with of my opinion, where appropriate.
Good work, master sergeant!-- Georgekenney 16:06, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
You do not address my point that he's removed links to EP that were created by others than myself, links of long-standing, in some cases of over one year. Which merely confirms my new low opinion of your judgment.-- Georgekenney 19:01, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I would not worry too much about this RJASE1, people want Wikipedia to link to their site, and they get upset when they cannot do it. No fault of yours. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 19:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Those who don't understand how the right-wing has been using censorship these past few years haven't been paying attention. Your repeated assertions are no substitute for intelligent discussion, as you amply demonstrate.-- Georgekenney 20:43, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Eagle, I am sympathetic with your efforts to paper over a genuine problem on your side of things. But the fact is, neither you nor the other editors who chimed in in favor of deleting links to EP addressed my substantive points.
Let's enumerate:
(1) The external links themselves fall well within the guidelines "Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews."
(2) You do not have a flat prohibition against people posting links to their own sites, though this is discouraged. If you believe you have such a prohibition, show me the exact language and where it may be found. Or explain why this instance is not a valid exception to the general practice.
(3) The individual who deleted all links to EP lied repeatedly about his actions. (a) He said that I did not respond to his comments requesting clarification. An outright lie. See the discussion he cites above with their time logs. (b) After deleting all links from Wikipedia to EP he claimed that those links he deleted which I had not created were inactive. Another lie, and I have the EP logs to prove it. (c) He then claims he is not interested in the content. A lie by his very own words (see discussion he cites), where he admits the content is relevant to the Wikipedia biographical entries. After this kind of a track record -- just in the course of two days (!) -- is it any wonder that I look at his profile and his actions and put two and two together to conclude that he's an ideological zealot hiding behind vague Wikipedia rules and a corrupted group-think process?
(4) The only Wikipedia person here who's shown any sense is a younger blind man in Australia. Wow! What does that tell you about your process?
(5) My site is fairly small. I get about 35,000 visitors per month, of whom fewer than 40 are referrals from Wikipedia. Do you think I care about that traffic? I really don't. What I'm concerned about, what I've pointed out in just about every comment I've added here, is that the Wikipedia editing process appears to me to be corrupt, not to be trusted. It's an insight I've not had previously, but now has become abundantly clear from this experience. Worse, the organization does not appear to have satisfactory self-correcting mechanisms in place; instead, its first, second, and third instinct is to protect a member of the 'group.' This is a farce, as anybody outside your group can plainly see.
(6) Ultimately, the question is whether the content deserves a link or not. In most of the above affirmation to delete these links the refrain seems to be "no advertising", "content is irrelevant", and "process is everything." I suggest to you in all seriousness that you reconsider, in a fundamental way, what you are doing. What you appear to be doing is engaging in an exercise involving kind caresses from one group member to another, not a realistic effort to improve the increase of general knowledge.
I'm not the only person who realizes that what you have done here stinks. But it's also clear to me that none of those full-throated supporters of your status quo understand or care about Wikipedia's public image, which speaks volumes about your claims to authenticity.-- Georgekenney 00:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
With the exception of one young man from Australia, none of you get it. I'm not asking about how to get the links put back: I've repeatedly said in the above discussion that that's not the point. Perhaps some don't believe me or are willfully disregarding what I say. Let me make it clear — the traffic Wikipedia sends my site is about 0.15% of my overall traffic. I just don't care about it. What bothers me, and to put this in as simple language as I can, is the question why I should link to you?
I've been in the habit of routinely linking to Wikipedia and I would estimate that in absolute numbers I've sent Wikipedia about 100 times the traffic that Wikipedia has sent me. Why should I continue to link to Wikipedia if I can't have confidence that its procedures protect against abuse by insiders? More generally, why should anybody link to Wikipedia? That's been my question all along.
Even Jimbo Wales, responding to my email to him, sent me five paragraphs on how to get the links restored, but nothing at all on fairness or neutrality. He doesn't get it, either. ...So, I suppose, why should I expect more from you?...
Which leaves me the one alternative of discontinuing my practice of linking to Wikipedia and taking a highly skeptical view of Wikipedia in any available, appropriate forum. I'm sorry you were — collectively — unable to even begin to resolve this problem.-- Georgekenney 01:21, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
-- 71.111.109.225 01:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC) I am writing to support one point that George made. RJASE1 has been removing links, some more than 1 year old, indiscriminally. Case in point, the Chinese Astrology page. In the process of RJASE1 fighting a link spam back in April 4, he was tricked to removed all external links. However, when I repeatedly told him this couple days that he had made a mistake and he should put back all the links that were there for more than a year, he ignore my case and inserted another link which he thinks ACCEPTABLE by him. Check the history before April 4 and after April 4, and you will see what I meant about the external links. He repeatedly revert what I put back (the links before April 4) and warns that I am close to breaking the 3 reverts rule. He does not admit errors and pushes his own agenda.
I want to say that I like having SPAM police. They are like good gardener, pulling the weed and keep the grass (wikipedia) green.
However, I do not like careless, self-rightious SPAM police like RJASE1. He is like a lazy gardener, instead of pulling out the weeds, he decided to spray everything around it with Weed killer, killing all the good beautiful glass around it, and leaving patches of dying glasses all over the lawn. When someone wants to patch the lawn, he resort to putting his own "approved" version of syntetic lawn on the patches and refuse any replanting.
Can i place an article of a CHARITY? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ancientneareast ( talk • contribs) 18:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC).
Of course, i understand i cannot put my site's link to an existing article, what i want to do is actually make an article about the charity, so when people look for "Hope for success charity" they can found some information about the charity itself. And at the end of the article put the link to the site but only from the article "Hope for success charity." Is that possible?
Ancientneareast
15:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I am writing to support one point that George made. RJASE1 has been removing links, some more than 1 year old, indiscriminally. Case in point, the Chinese Astrology page. In the process of RJASE1 fighting a link spam back in April 4, he was tricked to removed all external links. However, when I repeatedly told him this couple days that he had made a mistake and he should put back all the links that were there for more than a year, he ignore my case and inserted another link which he thinks ACCEPTABLE by him. Check the history before April 4 and after April 4, and you will see what I meant about the external links. He repeatedly revert what I put back (the links before April 4) and warns that I am close to breaking the 3 reverts rule. He does not admit errors and pushes his own agenda.
When I first came to Wiki a little over a month ago, I made a mistake. Having looked at existing entries in various Torah related sections, I added links absolutely in line with what I saw in those sections, to related Torah commentaries at LearningTorah.org, a non-profit organization whose work is to spread Torah. As I understood from the Wiki moderators, there was no problem with the relevance of the links or the relevance of the commentaries, but the problem was the amount of links that were added at one time which made it appear that this was spam. In fact, this was just a desire to add to the list of commentaries that are included in Wiki, to help to further spread commentaries about the Torah. It is very similar in nature to other sites that are in fact listed as commentary under every single Weekly Torah Portion section. In fact, the relevance of these links and commentaries can be seen in Parsha Shemini or Tazria where for some reason, the LearningTorah commentary is still up.
Now I see that the site has been added to the Wiki spam list and this is very concerning. I request to please have this decision reversed and also to be treated as as the norm with other listed commentary sources that you can see under every section of the Weekly Torah Portions.
I appreciate Wiki very much and look forward to contributing in the future. Torahorg 06:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
After being in WP:EL since October, there's a proposal (and revert war) at EL over the mention of substituting a link to open directory category to try and keep the number of external links down. Since this is a potential linkspam fighting tool, editors here should be aware of the proposed change. Feel free to weigh in there (EL talk page) if you have an opinion on the matter. Thanks. -- Minderbinder 12:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone object to moving the internal spamming part to a separate page? I notice that even somewhat experienced editors running for admin are unaware of the guidelines, part of the reason might be that it's tucked in amids the lengthy discussion on external spamming. They're also targeting very different audiences, so a WP:SPAM link in an AfD discussion might be ambiguous: It could mean that the article itself contains spam links or that a discussion participant engaged in canvassing. In short I see few reasons to keep them together but quite a couple to separate them. Comments? ~ trialsanderrors 21:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Excellent, excellent. I am strongly in favor, I previously started Wikipedia:Canvassing and wanted consensus for splitting it off from here, see thread above titled "Factor canvassing"; unfortunately there was only 1 pro and 1 con opinion so no consensus to do anything was reached. External link spamming and canvassing are two separate concepts, the latter of which is sometimes (erroneously, IMO) also called "spamming", but that's a job for disambiguation, not putting them all on one page. It really deserves its own page as a guideline/policy, also for visibility. Thanks Trialsanderrors. — Quarl ( talk) 2006-12-31 02:27Z
By the way, I now realize that there is a slight nuance between "canvassing" and "internal spamming": the usual problem is the former, while the latter can also include for example telling lots of users about how great an article is -- something that isn't trying to influence a debate. I don't think it's nearly as much a problem as canvassing but it might deserve a paragraph still within the WP:SPAM guideline after Canvassing is officially split off. — Quarl ( talk) 2006-12-31 09:09Z
See Wikipedia talk:Canvassing#Reset.
There appears to already be consensus that this guideline should be split (and I'll add my strong support). But, we now have a large section of duplicated text, with both copies marked as official, and almost certain to diverge in content fairly rapidly. Not good.
My suggestion is that we need to either degrade the status of Wikipedia:Canvassing back to a proposed guideline, or replace the cut-and-pasted section in this guideline with a nutshell summary and a wikilink to the new guideline at Wikipedia:Canvassing. Other thoughts? Andrewa 00:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
From Wikipedia talk:Canvassing#Reset:
So, can we now replace this section by a wikilink, and work on a nutshell summary to go there too? Andrewa 02:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Take a look: http://www.lockergnome.com/nexus/search/2006/04/10/how-to-link-spam-wikipedia/ Be careful... -- 75.17.60.209 23:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
It is suggested on the talk page of Wikipedia:WikiProject External links, to merge that project with Wikipedia:WikiProject Spam, with the impression that the External links project is actually inactive, and the Spam project, as an active project, can handle its tasks to. I would like to know your points of view in this regard. - huji— TALK 20:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Couldn't this be used to reduce the problem of external link spamming with bots. Just require users that isn't logged in to enter a imagecode if thay have added an external link.
This private school in Switzerland has been spamming Wikipedia by putting on the first line of famous philosophers and artists: "teach at the EGS", and also by uploading photos taken by User:Europeangraduateschool (I believe such names do not respect policies). Maybe someone would like to want to check what's going on there... A Google search on "European Graduate School" 's occurences on Wikipedia gives, as of January 2007, more than 80 occurences. See Talk:European Graduate School and contributions from very few users (you might notice that the EGS entry is in many languages, including Chinese, and were all created by Wikipedia:Single purpose account. Lapaz 02:34, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
This user Jenny44 keeps reverting my reverts to what I think is spam. She keeps putting a link to a screensaver on the waterfall article. I tell her that Wikipedia shouldn't be used for promotional material and she says that the link isn't promotional and that its free. Is this still spam? She keeps putting back the link after I remove it...
User:Jason ilacqua has been adding commentary/blog links to a multitude of sports articles. Google the name and you will find him to be the senior editor of the site in question. I removed some, but he has been busy. ccwaters 17:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
...that this is a "prime spam target". Of the external-to-WMF external links, all three of them use interwiki mappings and any real SPAM would be extremely easy to see. I also note that prior to this protection most reverted edits were either: Simple or silly vandalisms, or, edit warring over the now-moved "Canvassing" section. 68.39.174.238 23:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Is there a guideline for whether articles on radio stations should contain details of the wavelength? I am thinking that this may be a form of advertising, a little like giving the address of a corporation, but it seems quite prevalent. Any suggestions where I might look? Abtract 18:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
The Men from the Ministère will be requiring that commercial spammers toe the line and refrain from posing as a consumer in sockpuppetry and fake bloggery stunts http://www.smartmobs.com/archive/2007/02/11/eu_makes_sock_p....html#comments
Bwithh Join Up! See the World! 21:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Should I add a paragraph about spambots to the page, or should this be a separate article?? This is because of the Wikipedia talk:Spam/Archive 2/ (as an example, this using the {{PAGENAME}} variable to display it here) created by spambots, that are happening frequently.
On the Cornish Wiktionary, where I'm an admin (the only one), I've had to delete-protect spambot pages created. I'm in the process of writing guidelines there about spamming.
Advice is appreciated - I'm unsure about making changes to policy pages without consensus. -- sunstar net talk 11:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure this wouldn't have any effect, but check out this edit to a redirect last November... -- nae' blis 03:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I recently added two external links to Wikipedia, and then received three messages on my talk page (from the same user) about spam. I read the Guideline on Spam he/she linked for me, and this part is worrying me:
"Subsequent offences can be tagged with {{spam2}} or {{spam2a}}, then {{spam3}} (warning of possible block) and {{spam4}} (final warning). The template {{spam5}} indicates that the spammer has been blocked."
The templates used on my talk page were Welcomespam, Spam and Spam2. Should I have gotten three tags, or only two since there were two links, or only one since I added both links basically at the same time? Does this mean that I am now only three links away from being blocked? Playing the devil's advocate here, is it possible to get another user blocked simply by filling their talk page with spam templates? (mwahahaha) Is there a way to get the tags removed?
Does anyone else hear that Violent Femmes song in their heads ... "I hope you know that this will go down on your permanent record" ...? Yeah. It's probably just me. Fauxpaw 22:01, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I've seen publisher's book sites included in articles in many different ways, and always consider them linkspam because they are promotional in nature. However, in Wikinomics (book) I saw for the first time that an official site was included for the book in the External links section. I removed it, but with reluctance. It seems to be more just a way to get a promotional link into an article, rather than provide readers with useful additional information on the subject of the article. Given that more and more book sites, especially technical books, contain large amounts of useful information, it might be useful to clarify how to treat official book site links. (Related discussions: [5], [6]) -- Ronz 23:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
There have recently been edits to WP:COI changing the spam wording from always avoid linking to your own site to avoid or exercise great caution when linking to your own site. Additional opinions would be appreciated. -- Milo H Minderbinder 12:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
On 26 February, User:Stevertigo added the following as a fourth type of spam:
Perhaps it's just me, but I don't understand exactly what "bandspam" is, and, more importantly, see absolutely no discussion on this page about the change. Moreover, adding a fourth type breaks the relationship between types (four) and sections describing the spam in more detail (only three).
So I've reverted the change. An explanation of this addition to the guideline, here, would be appreciated. An example would be even more appreciated. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 00:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Bandspam is my term for the usage of links which appear to be promotional rather than informational. For example, if someone put a hatnote WP:HN on the God article: God Part II is also song by U2, that would be bandspam. Its an egregious example because
Hence my term "bandspam" addresses the trivial nature such links, which may or may not be music related. We could imagine cases where Pokemon or video games might tried to be linked from the top of other non-trivial articles. Of course most major articles wont be subject to this problem because there is often more than two terms to disambiguate, but Ive seen the problem come up enough to make a minor issue of it.
The solution to this (accepted and promoted on wikien) is simply to always use an {{otheruses}} tag, or some variant if the article name is not the same as the disambiguation. The argument against the removal of such notes appears to be promotional, or else it claims that disambiguation should only apply in cases where more than two different articles exist. I disagree, and apparently so do most of our policy wonks at wikien. "Always use the otheruses/disambig method" seems to be common enough to be a rule.
Ive never bothered to remake policy to reflect this view, and Ive for the most part only made it a personal policy to remove such bandspam or hatnotes or hatspam - whatever we want to call it - inappropriate or 'unencyclopedic disambiguation'. There are of course exceptions, and
halo is one - where the game is claimed to be the more prominent search and therefore the article should link directly to the game. (Note: Halo now is a disambiguation rather than the article about the optical phenomenon with the video game and otheruses links at top)
I might agree with such usage in a small number of cases, as long as the general understanding is that the disambig page method is almost always preferred. -
Ste
vertigo
07:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
If the problem occurs with misuse of the hatnote, which is a disambiguation function, why put anything in the policy on spam? To me, and I think to others, the spam policy deals with high-volume postings. As an analogy, posting a single link to an advertising site, while typically reverted with an edit summary of "linkspam", is a violation of WP:EL, not of this policy. In other words, if someone saw a hatnote misused, I don't think they'd think to look at WP:SPAM for guidance, they'd look to Wikipedia:Disambiguation or Wikipedia:Hatnotes (if they knew what a "hatnote" was).
Also, as noted in the section on Spambots, above, it's not really necessary that a policy discuss each and every problem. If in fact editors are arguing over the misuse of hatnotes and similar "bandspam", then, yes, some policy should probably be changed to clarify this. Is this issue really being disputed? -- John Broughton (♫♫) 12:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm currently involved in a polite disagreement over at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam#DermAtlas, and I'd welcome feedback from this community.-- Hu12 02:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
this site: [www.filmfocus.nl] , is listed as spam and I am not allowed to use it as a reference. It is obviously not a spam site, but a serious site about what's happening in film in the Netherlands. I need to use an article there for a reference in an article here about European films/ What am I supposed to do? Jeffpw 13:42, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Though what follows flows from some particular issues I have encountered, I mean this as a more general inquiry, with what answers emerge of use, one hopes, to all. That is, while I present a very particular (and actual) case, I am not posting to argue that case or garner support for my position but because I feel it is quite representative of a large, general class of problem that should get some attention. The particularity is thus simply to have a clear, definite example for discussion.
Case 1: There exists a web site devoted to growing vegetables in the home garden. It seems to have a novel aspect, in that it focuses on the particular vegetable varieties that are reported to be the most flavorsome, a concern of much mores importance to home growers than to commercial growers. The site contains a number of pages, one per vegetable considered, each presenting a discussion about cultivar (variety) selection followed by usually extensive growing instructions plus some basic botany and history of that vegetable.
The individual vegetable pages each have a small text Adsense block on them. The block is small both absolutely and relative to the page length, and is not intrusive (matched background colors). The site also has an associated Amazon bookstore dealing only in books on vegetables. This appears only in the full site directory (which is shown on each page); there are no free-floating ads for it on the pages.
If it is proposed to add to the Wikipedia article on a given vegetable an External Link to the corresponding page of this site, what are the issues? WP:EL plainly says that what should be linked includes Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to . . . amount of detail . . . . The existing WP articles vary in their degree of detail, but though some mention cultivation they do not--and cannot, owing to length--include much detail.
The WP:EL lists 13 reasons why a given link should not be included. None seem to apply. The information provides a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article; it does not mislead the reader by use of factually inaccurate material; it does not require payment or registration; it does not only work with a specific browser; it does not require external applications . . . to view the relevant content; it is not search engine [or] aggregated results pages; it is not a social networking site; it is not an open wiki; and it is directly related to the subject of the article.
That leaves these possible objections: is the link mainly intended to promote a website? Does the site primarily exist to sell products or services? Does the site have objectionable amounts of advertising?
The web site itself is not that of a commercial service; the only thing it itself sells is Amazon books through a related but not integral bookshop (meaning that there are not ads for the bookshop all over the pages). The pages each have a small-type, relatively unobtrusive adsense text block. The pages are of some length and are informational and instructional.
Is that a reasonable link? Note that the question is not on whether it is a good link--if the link qua link is not of good quality, it will disappear in time and good riddance. The question is whether, on the facts as presented, it is automatically debarred.
Now Case #2: the same facts as in Case #1 above, except that the link poster maintains the site. This case presumes that the poster puts a note on the Talk page that discloses the relation.
WP:COI seems not to be much on point here, WP:EL seeming to be the governing policy set, inasmuch as there are no points of view involved.
I, for the life of me, cannot see why such a link would be considered automatically debarred from being a WP EL. Obviously, someone with questions as to how much and how blatant any advertising copy (though I daresay everyone knows what Adsense text looks like) would need to visit the page and see whether the page is "primarily" (or even largely) an advertising medium. But surely it cannot be that the mere presence of any ad whatever of any kind or size on a page automatically debars it from linkworthiness--else a large fraction of long-standing extant links of quality would have to be vanished.
Is that a reasonable view?
Let me say that there seems--to me, anyway--to be a general problem with External Links, with a few Wikipedians taking on what seems to me authority beyond what published WP policy states in deciding what will or will not be allowed to appear.
Now there is certainly a problem with spam, including link spam. But there is a reasonable reaction and there is an unreasonable reaction. A reasonable reaction will be founded in the policies set forth with some clarity in WP:EL. At the other extreme will be some self-appointed Guardian of Purity who simply deletes all new external links with the remark "Wikipedia is not a link farm". (That is not an exaggeration: I have seen it.) It is true that Wikipedia is not dmoz; but neither can it completely fulfill its task if it disdains all other sites. So what's needed is a simple way of deciding whether a given link augments the article, and that way is WP:EL, not someone's personal tastes.
The real problem is that there seems no simple way of handling those mavericks who feel that they are On a Mission From God. Endless rounds on the Talk page with most everyone on one side and the maverick alone on the other get nowhere. Yes, that is an extreme case, but there are many others less severe but still problematic.
Obviously, everyone, including me, will disagree with the person who alters or reverts an edit. But when some people's Talk pages are just long laundry lists of plaints about draconian reverts, the perceptive will see a clue. There is, of course, a grey area between the diligent pruner and the zealot. But usually a review of the posted complaints will be revealing: they will invariably include some number of semi-literate objurgations from actual spammers whining about their business site or whatever; but the clue will be the presence of a nontrivial number of different persons each presenting an obviously reasonable case that is not met with reasoned argument but with repetition of some favorite mantra about spam and spammers.
The one poor devil who seems always to get lost in conflicts on this matter is the user--the person who comes to Wikipedia looking for information on some subject. No WP article can cover, at great depth, everything there is to know about a subject, else WP would be the only site needed on the whole web. Obviously, WP itself has related articles for many topics, but even ensemble those cannot duplicate the sum of all information available elsewhere. That is why the very category External Links exists. But too often, WP editing, of external links and much else, seems to be more a tilting ground for 24/7 Wikipedians to joust in power games than to bear much connection to what one would think is the bedrock issue: the utility of Wikipedia to visitors. ("The perfect bureaucracy administers nothing but itself.")
The point is not whether this or that argument should be settled this or that way: the point is that there seems no clear mechanism for resolving these issues at a relatively low level, and few want to go on to higher levels. That is especially true when the would-be link poster is not a 24/7 Wikipedian, but simply a passing visitor with an idea.
Thoughts?
Eric Walker 10:18, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Mmmm a suggestion (about the newer links anyway. If an editor asks you about them, that means it might be a good idea to ask about the potential usefulness of them on the article's talk page. That would be a better place then discussing it here. I really don't have an opinion in this matter yet though. —— Eagle101 Need help? 01:04, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Just fyi: Somebody took it upon themselves to delete all the dozen or so links I'd put on Wiki to my site, citing spam policy. Here's the problem: I've got a podcast in which I interview, at length, without ads, people who are interesting. Many of them have entries on Wiki. I'm not adding an entry for somebody who doesn't have one and then adding external links. On an existing page I'm linking to a long interview -- for example, with a retired three star USMC general, or with a leading international anti-nuclear activist, or with a former UK cabinet minister -- with a person about whom there's no disagreement re their Wiki status. By definition, if that person gives an hour interview (and I repeat, no ads) -- the kind of interview that simply cannot be found elsewhere -- then that interview should be of interest also. These are one-line external links, saying essentially 'audio interview, name of site, date of interview, and length of interview.' What's wrong with that?
I understand the self-promotion questions, and the neutrality questions. But I have a neutrality question of my own: Can a person with a political axe to grind get rid of a batch of links under cover of 'spam policy'? With a fall-back, nonsense argument that no reputable sources have cited my site? (Citations for such external links as I've described should be irrelevant).
To be honest, the traffic from Wiki to my site is de minimis and I don't intend to try to work through this in a conflict resolution fashion. I merely pose the problem here, as it seems the abuse originates from an over-zealous application of an unclear policy. -- Georgekenney 04:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Georgekenney ( talk • contribs) 04:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC).
You are indeed the individual I referred to. By "attempted to work with the user" do you mean "just delete all the links without any explanation?"-- Georgekenney 04:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
If you'd read what I wrote above you'd have seen I had read that. Have you decided to edit out its reference to "exceptions"? Go figure... My objection to this discussion is that it seems an all too convenient cover for political objections to my site -- perhaps I'm mistaken and if so, I'd be delighted to be corrected.-- Georgekenney 05:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
As a self-professed "cold warrior" who seems to delight in warmaking (a cursory glance at your profile tells me that), I am skeptical about your claims to neutrality.-- Georgekenney 05:14, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to be clear: what in your mind constitutes a "response"? Something within two or three minutes?! I did respond, today, as you well know. So please don't misrepresent events!-- Georgekenney 05:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Eagle. I'm sorry but I don't have time to find somebody else to do these links for me. (Unless you want to do that yourself :) I'm a one-person shop, I produce a show once a week, it's high quality, and it takes a lot of time. If I don't fall within your understanding of Wiki guidelines, so be it. But I reiterate: the individual who deleted these links seems to me to have acted in an arbitrary, malicious fashion based on some antagonistic political ideology. Which is why I posted the above comment in the first place -- not to hash the issue out, which I honestly am not interested in doing -- but to alert other Wiki users that a potential for abuse exists within the vague nature of external link guidelines.-- Georgekenney 05:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, these policies and guidelines are not clear, I think. Anyhow, I sent a note, to start, to Helen Caldicott and if her anti-nuclear organization wants to ask her Wiki page editor(s) why they consider a link to an audio interview with her spam, then you'll have a chance to restore the link. Further, you haven't understood my point: I'm doing you a favor with the links. Not the other way around. I'm not so hot to have the links restored. What I'm saying is, you've perhaps got an anti-spam junior editor who's substituting his political opinions for good judgment about spam. THAT'S the problem you need to deal with.-- Georgekenney 06:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I defy you to find another hour-long interview with a former director of the NSA. There is nothing else like this out there. Before throwing my description of my site back in my face, why don't you actually look at the substance of what's being discussed? I would observe that several admins have joined this discussion without actually reading my posts, or familiarizing themselves in any way with the site involved. What I see is a knee-jerk reaction supporting an indefensible intellectual position.
It seems to me abundantly clear that a master sergeant in the US Air Force, currently serving if his Wiki bio is up-to-date, has no business doing wholesale deletions of audio links to an anti-war website -- particularly not when those interviews include, separately, two retired three star generals, three retired Ambassadors, two senior (serving) UN officials, two retired senior CIA analysts, one former UK cabinet minister (still an MP), one winner of the alternative Nobel Peace Prize, and a couple others. In terms of content having the external links is a no-brainer: Only a right-wing political zealot would attempt to delete them all under the guise of "spam guidelines".
I would note that I am not the only source of links to these interviews. Your spam master sergeant deleted others, not created by me, which have been up for more than a year. What's the excuse there?
To my mind this episode underscores flaws with the Wikipedia project: my view of Wikipedia has overnight gone from a "9.5" to a "4". I very much doubt whether I'll do any further linking here from my site, which I used to do routinely. And I'll advise those I talk with of my opinion, where appropriate.
Good work, master sergeant!-- Georgekenney 16:06, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
You do not address my point that he's removed links to EP that were created by others than myself, links of long-standing, in some cases of over one year. Which merely confirms my new low opinion of your judgment.-- Georgekenney 19:01, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I would not worry too much about this RJASE1, people want Wikipedia to link to their site, and they get upset when they cannot do it. No fault of yours. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 19:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Those who don't understand how the right-wing has been using censorship these past few years haven't been paying attention. Your repeated assertions are no substitute for intelligent discussion, as you amply demonstrate.-- Georgekenney 20:43, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Eagle, I am sympathetic with your efforts to paper over a genuine problem on your side of things. But the fact is, neither you nor the other editors who chimed in in favor of deleting links to EP addressed my substantive points.
Let's enumerate:
(1) The external links themselves fall well within the guidelines "Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews."
(2) You do not have a flat prohibition against people posting links to their own sites, though this is discouraged. If you believe you have such a prohibition, show me the exact language and where it may be found. Or explain why this instance is not a valid exception to the general practice.
(3) The individual who deleted all links to EP lied repeatedly about his actions. (a) He said that I did not respond to his comments requesting clarification. An outright lie. See the discussion he cites above with their time logs. (b) After deleting all links from Wikipedia to EP he claimed that those links he deleted which I had not created were inactive. Another lie, and I have the EP logs to prove it. (c) He then claims he is not interested in the content. A lie by his very own words (see discussion he cites), where he admits the content is relevant to the Wikipedia biographical entries. After this kind of a track record -- just in the course of two days (!) -- is it any wonder that I look at his profile and his actions and put two and two together to conclude that he's an ideological zealot hiding behind vague Wikipedia rules and a corrupted group-think process?
(4) The only Wikipedia person here who's shown any sense is a younger blind man in Australia. Wow! What does that tell you about your process?
(5) My site is fairly small. I get about 35,000 visitors per month, of whom fewer than 40 are referrals from Wikipedia. Do you think I care about that traffic? I really don't. What I'm concerned about, what I've pointed out in just about every comment I've added here, is that the Wikipedia editing process appears to me to be corrupt, not to be trusted. It's an insight I've not had previously, but now has become abundantly clear from this experience. Worse, the organization does not appear to have satisfactory self-correcting mechanisms in place; instead, its first, second, and third instinct is to protect a member of the 'group.' This is a farce, as anybody outside your group can plainly see.
(6) Ultimately, the question is whether the content deserves a link or not. In most of the above affirmation to delete these links the refrain seems to be "no advertising", "content is irrelevant", and "process is everything." I suggest to you in all seriousness that you reconsider, in a fundamental way, what you are doing. What you appear to be doing is engaging in an exercise involving kind caresses from one group member to another, not a realistic effort to improve the increase of general knowledge.
I'm not the only person who realizes that what you have done here stinks. But it's also clear to me that none of those full-throated supporters of your status quo understand or care about Wikipedia's public image, which speaks volumes about your claims to authenticity.-- Georgekenney 00:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
With the exception of one young man from Australia, none of you get it. I'm not asking about how to get the links put back: I've repeatedly said in the above discussion that that's not the point. Perhaps some don't believe me or are willfully disregarding what I say. Let me make it clear — the traffic Wikipedia sends my site is about 0.15% of my overall traffic. I just don't care about it. What bothers me, and to put this in as simple language as I can, is the question why I should link to you?
I've been in the habit of routinely linking to Wikipedia and I would estimate that in absolute numbers I've sent Wikipedia about 100 times the traffic that Wikipedia has sent me. Why should I continue to link to Wikipedia if I can't have confidence that its procedures protect against abuse by insiders? More generally, why should anybody link to Wikipedia? That's been my question all along.
Even Jimbo Wales, responding to my email to him, sent me five paragraphs on how to get the links restored, but nothing at all on fairness or neutrality. He doesn't get it, either. ...So, I suppose, why should I expect more from you?...
Which leaves me the one alternative of discontinuing my practice of linking to Wikipedia and taking a highly skeptical view of Wikipedia in any available, appropriate forum. I'm sorry you were — collectively — unable to even begin to resolve this problem.-- Georgekenney 01:21, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
-- 71.111.109.225 01:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC) I am writing to support one point that George made. RJASE1 has been removing links, some more than 1 year old, indiscriminally. Case in point, the Chinese Astrology page. In the process of RJASE1 fighting a link spam back in April 4, he was tricked to removed all external links. However, when I repeatedly told him this couple days that he had made a mistake and he should put back all the links that were there for more than a year, he ignore my case and inserted another link which he thinks ACCEPTABLE by him. Check the history before April 4 and after April 4, and you will see what I meant about the external links. He repeatedly revert what I put back (the links before April 4) and warns that I am close to breaking the 3 reverts rule. He does not admit errors and pushes his own agenda.
I want to say that I like having SPAM police. They are like good gardener, pulling the weed and keep the grass (wikipedia) green.
However, I do not like careless, self-rightious SPAM police like RJASE1. He is like a lazy gardener, instead of pulling out the weeds, he decided to spray everything around it with Weed killer, killing all the good beautiful glass around it, and leaving patches of dying glasses all over the lawn. When someone wants to patch the lawn, he resort to putting his own "approved" version of syntetic lawn on the patches and refuse any replanting.
Can i place an article of a CHARITY? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ancientneareast ( talk • contribs) 18:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC).
Of course, i understand i cannot put my site's link to an existing article, what i want to do is actually make an article about the charity, so when people look for "Hope for success charity" they can found some information about the charity itself. And at the end of the article put the link to the site but only from the article "Hope for success charity." Is that possible?
Ancientneareast
15:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I am writing to support one point that George made. RJASE1 has been removing links, some more than 1 year old, indiscriminally. Case in point, the Chinese Astrology page. In the process of RJASE1 fighting a link spam back in April 4, he was tricked to removed all external links. However, when I repeatedly told him this couple days that he had made a mistake and he should put back all the links that were there for more than a year, he ignore my case and inserted another link which he thinks ACCEPTABLE by him. Check the history before April 4 and after April 4, and you will see what I meant about the external links. He repeatedly revert what I put back (the links before April 4) and warns that I am close to breaking the 3 reverts rule. He does not admit errors and pushes his own agenda.
When I first came to Wiki a little over a month ago, I made a mistake. Having looked at existing entries in various Torah related sections, I added links absolutely in line with what I saw in those sections, to related Torah commentaries at LearningTorah.org, a non-profit organization whose work is to spread Torah. As I understood from the Wiki moderators, there was no problem with the relevance of the links or the relevance of the commentaries, but the problem was the amount of links that were added at one time which made it appear that this was spam. In fact, this was just a desire to add to the list of commentaries that are included in Wiki, to help to further spread commentaries about the Torah. It is very similar in nature to other sites that are in fact listed as commentary under every single Weekly Torah Portion section. In fact, the relevance of these links and commentaries can be seen in Parsha Shemini or Tazria where for some reason, the LearningTorah commentary is still up.
Now I see that the site has been added to the Wiki spam list and this is very concerning. I request to please have this decision reversed and also to be treated as as the norm with other listed commentary sources that you can see under every section of the Weekly Torah Portions.
I appreciate Wiki very much and look forward to contributing in the future. Torahorg 06:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
After being in WP:EL since October, there's a proposal (and revert war) at EL over the mention of substituting a link to open directory category to try and keep the number of external links down. Since this is a potential linkspam fighting tool, editors here should be aware of the proposed change. Feel free to weigh in there (EL talk page) if you have an opinion on the matter. Thanks. -- Minderbinder 12:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)