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Note: This is the first time I had ever made a section like this. I hope I have not made a mistake with dividing my comment into sections or having placed any sections in the wrong place.
My relation to this topic does not originate in the "creation of the universe" debate, but rather a debate I had with User:Tommysun in Talk:Crop circle regarding much of the same issues: pseudoscience, NPOV, undue weight, and so on. On the way, I picked up much of what I will present now through my own research from WP:NPOV, Pseudoscience, the research I did on crop circles, and what Tommy said. Most of the things that I know about the subject of cosmic infaltion, tired light, etc. come from what I read in the past two days; I do not have comprehensive knowledge in this area. The examples given in this section may not be accurate in terms of what actually happened, but are there serve to make a point about pseudoscience and Wikipedia. This was written over a period of hours throughout the entire day in periods of free time.
Problem: Look at its talk page and you see what I mean; there is no agreement on what exactly is pseudoscience and what is not, everyone thinks what they are doing is correct. People who are studying what most scientists would consider "pseudoscience" believe the opposite, as do the people who read their works and believe in what they do. Meanwhile, the people who side with mainstream science have difficulty why the pseudoscience is in fact pseudoscience and not just something that they are not willing to believe in because it seems implausible. And that is exactly the case, there is no real definition of pseudoscience. What happens is that when a person studies something carefully and in depth to the point where he/she believes all arguments about it, all contradicting view immediately becomes plain out incorrect and stupid, and as a result pseudoscientific, since science does not do things that are stupid and incorrect.
Problem: The controversy over NPOV lies almost exclusively over this single sentence, found in WP:NPOV#Undue weight:
NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all (by example, the article on the Earth only very briefly refers to the Flat Earth theory, a view of a distinct minority).
The following problems exist:
It doesn't matter whether you take someone who takes a point on a majority view, or a point on the minority view, if the person holds strong to their beliefs, no productive work will get done on the Wikipedia article due to edit wars. People are not willing give away article space to the other viewpoint, they are not willing to listen to others, but boldly stide around proposing that their own viewpoint is correct. This is with both sides in this argument, both with people who support the big bang theory, and with those that oppose it, and it is what causes the massive edit wars, which is fueled even further because of the NPOV policy of undue weight. This is a problem with all of Wikipedia, not just this specific instance of it, because when people see that they can edit the encyclopedia that is read by millions of people, they add their own viewpoints to it and improve on it, while people on the other side refuse to let the viewpoint be heard. I have no idea what to do with this problem, though.
Dieting has been shown to have little long-term benefits, and certain popular diets in particular (Dukan, Paeliolithic) are particularly poor. Could they be classified as pseudo-science, including the page on Dieting giving a positive description of detox dieting? 203.129.51.51 ( talk) 06:36, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Iantresman at 01:08, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
Over 5 years ago, I was topic banned under Discretionary Sanctions for discussing a source. I wish to have this decision reversed.
The fact is, that I never edited the article against consensus. I don't believe that Wikipedia ever set out to ban editors who discuss sources in good faith, and didn't intend Discretionary Sanctions to be over-extended in this way. -- Iantresman ( talk) 01:08, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
Notes
This appears to be an attempt to relitigate the merits of a 5-year-old AE action instead of anything resembling a request to lift the sanction as no longer necessary. As I do not believe the committee should be entertaining requests of the former category five years after the fact, I do not intend to respond substantively unless requested by the committee. T. Canens ( talk) 02:15, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
As a disinterested outsider with no familiarity with the events descriped by the OP, I can say that the OP makes a compelling case for having been wrongly sanctioned. Assuming -in my usual cynical way- that the initial discussion with OP was hair-pullingly frustrating for those who disagree with them, I still can't see that as requiring anything more than a 6 month topic ban at worst.
While the committee may not be interested in relitigating old disputes (which is some bullshit, all in itself; it's essentially saying that ArbCom doesn't make mistakes), I wonder if the committee is possessed of that typical human ability to read between the lines: The OP is requesting that a 5-year-old sanction which they have abided in good faith, despite believing that it was wrongly and unfairly imposed should be lifted because the OP has given 5 years worth of evidence that they are perfectly capable of controlling themselves in this subject area. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:52, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
I have to agree with MjolnirPants. If it is valid to say that a sanction is no longer necessary then it is also valid to say that it was never necessary. All our AE admins are volunteers and human beings, and it is possible for them to make mistakes. Even if the principal issue is whether the sanction is necessary now, regardless of whether it ever was, then "I didn't do X in the first place" is a point in the claimant's favor. It means he can be trusted not to start. It certainly shouldn't be held against him. If lantresman was willing to submit to the admins' authority and obey a punishment that he believes he did not deserve (even if he believes wrongly), that is also a point showing that he can work in a collaborative project. We all have to bite our tongues sometime. If pleading innocent is enough to get a request automatically thrown out, I have to wonder what editors who were or believe themselves to be wrongly sanctioned are supposed to do. Darkfrog24 ( talk) 21:49, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
Is there a time limit for asking that a sanction be reversed? Most often I've seen requests refused because enough time had not passed. This is confusing for editors. I agree with Darkfrog and Mpants. This is a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. What is there in this editor's history that says he is not worthy of a revisit to his sanction? Above all what is missing in most AEs is that admins and arbs do not ask questions of the editor applying. If you don't understand, ask him, communicate with him; don't assume you understand. The concern here is that an editor has no recourse. We should be trying to hold on to editors, helping them edit, to be productive.( Littleolive oil ( talk) 22:48, 29 December 2017 (UTC))
Comment made before Thryduulf's cmt to Olive below... and thank you for your response. I understand the distinction but does every editor who appeals understand these kinds of distinctions before thy appeal. Do you see what I am saying?
While your explanations are sensible, logical and beautifully worded, they are the understanding of the admins and arbs not the editor who appeals. That an editor chooses "not to appeal on the merits of the original sanction for such a prolonged period of time is acceptance of the merits" assumes that the editor knows how to word or create an appeal that is within the realm of how the admins/arbs believe and expect a case should be presented and worded. My own experience is that editors do not always know how to word an appeal, do not have that view into the perspective of those they are dealing with. This is especially true for editors with less experience. We are throwing out cases because they are not presented in a way that is acceptable rather than that they are with out merit seems to me. That's why its imperative to ask an editor what they are saying or asking for. Right now its a guessing game as to how to present a case as to what to say or how to present information. Admins and arbs are seeing this from one view editors from another. With experience sure, editors can become good at presenting their cases, but the less experienced in the ways of AEs are severely handicapped. While Wikipedia was not originally designed to be punitive we are punishing editors for lacking knowledge and experience in presenting their cases. ( Littleolive oil ( talk) 23:44, 29 December 2017 (UTC))
( edit conflict) @ Darkfrog24: The root cause of (almost) every sanction is that one or more editors are unable to work constructively with the community or a subset of it (which can be as small as one other editor), either generally or in relation to a specific topic area. Sanctions should be, and mostly are, preventative not punitive - that is intended to allow editors to be productive and constructive in ways/areas where they can be while protecting the project by preventing them disrupting other areas. People can change, people can mature and (relevant in some cases) real-world situations can change so that the restrictions are no needed. Indeed in an ideal world every sanction would at some point no longer be necessary. For this reason appeals should always be focused on explaining/demonstrating why sanctions are no longer needed now. Whether they were needed at some point in the past has increasingly little relevance the longer ago that point was. I also strongly agree with BU Rob13 when they say "Choosing not to appeal on the merits of the original sanction for such a prolonged period of time is acceptance of the merits".
As for the specific sanctions here, I think that in December 2017 is completely irrelevant at this point whether they were required when imposed in November 2012, but that if they weren't required then they should have been appealed when they were still relevant. It's probably also worth noting that real world events seem to have changed, in that in 2012 Plasma cosmology was described as a fringe theory that had not been critically evaluated (or at least had not had a significant amount of critical evaluation). In the intervening five years though it seems that it has been evaluated and rejected - which could have a significant impact on how the need for sanctions would be evaluated. Thryduulf ( talk) 23:18, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
@ Littleolive oil: There is a distinction being made here between appealing a restriction on the grounds that it wasn't required when imposed, and appealing a restriction on the grounds that it isn't required now. The first sort of appeal should be made relatively soon after the restriction was imposed (how long exactly will vary based on different circumstances, but certainly beyond a year I'd be looking for some accompanying explanation about why the appeal wasn't made originally and why it is still relevant - an absence from the project for unavoidable real-world reasons would be one possible example.). The second sort of appeal should, in contrast, not be made too quickly because to be successful the person appealing will need to show that one or more things have changed and that just isn't possible immediately. Again different circumstances will dictate different lengths of time but in most cases less than 3-6 months is going to require evidence that something significant in the real world has changed - an example being the various restrictions imposed in the run up to the 2016 US presidential election were set to expire when the losing candidate conceded defeat, even though this was only expected to be a few weeks away (maybe less), as many of the problems were related to speculation about the outcome and/or its consequences. Thryduulf ( talk) 23:32, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
@ Iantresman: I have no interest at this point in reviewing five-year-old discussions to re-litigate a five-year-old topic ban, and the arbs below have indicated the same thing. If you want your appeal to be successful you need to demonstrate that your current behaviour and interactions mean that the topic ban is no longer required - whether it ever was is not relevant. I suggest that at this point it's probably best to withdraw this appeal, take a bit of time (a few days at least, probably at least a week is better. Certainly wait until after this appeal is archived) to work on a new appeal in your userspace that relates to your current behaviour - there are editors who will help you with this if you ask (although I can't remember where to find them off the top of my head, asking at the Wikipedia:Help desk will lead you to them if you can't find them directly). If you want to get advice on your editing style, then or now, then this is not the right forum in which to get it ( Wikipedia:Teahouse or using the {{ help me}} template on your talk page are). One thing though that will definitely count against an appeal is not listening to advice given to you. Thryduulf ( talk) 01:12, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
@
Darkfrog24: "If you do not appeal your sanctions right away and in as loud a voice as possible, we will interpret that as a confession/guilty plea and you will permanently lose your right to argue otherwise." That's not what I'm saying, and not what I interpret the arbs or anyone else (other than you) saying. The point is that you always need to appeal on the basis of why a remedy is not needed now. In practical terms this means that if you appeal in the first period then you need to show why the sanction was not necessary in the first place, and if you appeal in the second period then you need to show what has changed to mean it is no longer necessary (whether or not it ever was). The first period generally runs from immediately after the sanction was imposed through to around 2-6 months later, and the second period generally from around 6 weeks after it was placed and doesn't end (unless the restrictions expire or are lifted), although there are plenty of circumstances that can extend either period forwards or backwards.
Thryduulf (
talk)
15:16, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
@
SMcCandlish: A couple of quick points. I'm not saying that if you don't appeal the merits of your sanction in the first period after it is imposed that this is a concession that it was valid, just that for the purposes of a later appeal it is rarely relevant whether it was or was not valid or required at the time (and so it's easier for everybody to just treat it as if it was) - i.e. explain why the sanction isn't required now, whether it ever was or not. Regarding timescales, as I said there are many factors that can move either period in either direction, and yes some can be quite significant in terms of time, but if you are making an appeal significantly outside the usual timeframe then I expect the person appealing to acknowledge this and note what the factors are that mean an appeal to the initial validity is still relevant after a long time or why something has changed so much sooner than would normally be expected (and obviously people may disagree about what is and isn't relevant). In terms of this appeal, I'm not seeing anything that convinces me that it is worth considering whether the sanction was valid 5 years ago, nor initially was there anything presented on which to judge an appeal regarding whether it is required now.
Thryduulf (
talk)
15:14, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
Holy exploding wikilawyering, Batman! Per MPants and Euryalus - just lift the sanction and move on... -- Begoon 12:25, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
Too many ifs and buts. Lift the ban already. Bishonen | talk 16:39, 1 January 2018 (UTC).
I think the appellant's request for the topic ban to be lifted should be granted, since it's unlikely this serves any preventative purpose at all now. It's also fairly unlikely it ever did, though that may not be relevant to the decision.
I think what's happening here is some parties are bureaucratically treating this like a courtroom, and wikilawyering ("ha ha, he said 'have this decision reversed', and I can willfully choose to interpret that as 'have the record expunged' instead of 'have the effect of the decision terminated', and hot damn I'm clever'). It's patently obvious what the intent of the request is. Whether someone agrees with how the person feels about the nature and rationale of the original sanction when it was issued, and wants to litigate about whether someone should be able to appeal a sanction after X amount of time, it doesn't change the obvious underlying nature of the request.
That said, I would like to address the wonkish FBDB procedural stuff:
So, No double-standards, please. Especially since it's actually a triple standard: If you're not one of the AE in-crowd and attempt to use evidence more than about a year old, you may find yourself boomeranged for it, as I did, while those doing the boomeranging will themselves use even older evidence against you. If that sounds too hypocritical to be real, I assure you it is not. I've also seen an Arb, who was supposed to be arbitrating, turn prosecutor and go digging up extraneous dirt almost a year old looking for reasons to oppose an appeal, rather than weighing the evidence presented. Was several years ago, but it happened and nothing was done about it, so it could happen again. Give appellants a lot of procedural slack. We want to retain editors and get them editing as broadly as they're competent to contribute. ArbCom's goal is not to WP:WIN at being a prosecution simulator.
Normally I would automatically assume the first of these two meanings. But said commenter's "topic bans ... [are] like a brand that says 'filth.' There should be some avenue toward having it removed. Surely no one here thinks that ... sanctioned editors have to apologize for actions that they did not perform" leans toward the second.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 14:24, 4 January 2018 (UTC); revised: 00:56, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
I think this has turned semi-sour only because of the imprecise "have this decision reversed" opening wording, later restated more clearly as "would ... like to edit articles in these subject areas". ArbCom doesn't have its hands tied, and does not have to respond to this request by literally vacating the original sanction; it can simply lift it as not likely to be preventative of actual disruption. For those who love to play moot court, it's a normal legal process to parole people from prison, without getting into whether the original prosecution was valid (absent a showing of prosecutorial misconduct or the like).
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<
00:56, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
Ian Tresman was an original named party of the 2006 case, WP:ARBPS. He is a supporter of plasma universe ideas, generally considered on WP to be pseudoscience. (Arbcom, in its 2006 WP:ARBPS decision, made a finding of fact which linked to Ian Tresman's personal website). In a 15 July 2007 posting at WP:COIN, Ian stated "I have not used a pseudonym. My interests are readily found..."). Ian is not here arguing that his topic ban from plasma physics is no longer necessary, he is arguing that an AE decision about him from 2012 was wrongly decided. Those diffs are all available for review, so nothing prevents Arbcom from looking into this if they want to. The only problem is that some memories may have faded, but there should still be enough to go on. (The AE complaint was about inappropriate insistence on Ian's part about including a book, claimed to be tainted by fringe thinking, into the reference list of our article on Dusty plasma, which is a mainstream non-fringe topic in astronomy).
When Arbcom reviews AE decisions they often use the standard of 'within discretion', and from the limited data presented in this appeal, nothing jumps out to me as *not* within discretion. (Of course, I might say that because I did participate in the 2012 AE decision, though only to say that the user was adequately warned about discretionary sanctions). The question of whether Ian's topic ban is still necessary is a different question for which different data might need to be looked at, none of which is presented here. When admins are reviewing topic bans it is a common to say that 'indef topic bans can't be waited out'. In other words, there needs to be a record of positive editing (or an indication of a change of heart) to show that the previous problems won't recur. None of that data is included here, and I'd recommend that Arbcom decline this appeal. User:Callanecc has made other proposals below (Jan. 2) for what Ian might do next, including asking for AE review. EdJohnston ( talk) 04:55, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by RexxS at 21:47, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
I apologise for making what appears to be a content-related request, but the behaviour of editors at Ayurveda and Talk:Ayurveda needs to be restrained, and a simple confirmation should be all that's needed to clarify the underlying issues.
Following a contentious edit war at Ayurveda and a WP:AE discussion, El C created an RfC at resolve the question of whether the phrase "pseudoscience" should be in the lead. The debate involved over 60 editors, was closed as no-consensus, reviewed, and re-opened for closure by an admin.
Many proponents of Ayurveda have taken the opportunity in that debate to argue that Ayurveda is not pseudoscientific and are attempting to have the phrase removed entirely. I believe that the position on Wikipedia is that Ayurveda is a pseudoscience as a matter of fact. I am therefore seeking a clear confirmation from ArbCom that the article is subject to discretionary sanctions as a pseudoscience (as even that fact has been contested). Having a clear statement of the position will enable a closer to accurately weigh the strengths of the arguments and to reject entirely arguments that clearly contradict Wikipedia policy on pseudoscience.
In the decision at WP:ARBPS#Generally considered pseudoscience, ArbCom asserted the principleI would like a clarification that the principle includes Ayurveda in the same way as astrology, and consequently that Ayurveda can be considered in the same light.Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience.
Thank you in advance for your assistance in this matter. -- RexxS ( talk) 21:47, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
If the 2020 committee feels unable to affirm that Ayurveda is included in the principle "Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience." that the 2006 committee passed 8-0, then so be it: I won't take up any more of your time. -- RexxS ( talk) 17:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
The actions of Petrarchan47 in starting yet another RfC at Talk:Ayurveda on an issue that was settled two weeks ago are a shining example of the sort of disruption that is being caused in this area following Opindia's campaign to distort Wikipedia's decision-making processes. Regular editors are becoming weary of the time-sink involved in dealing with questions that have been repeatedly asked and answered. As I've been assured that discretionary sanctions are sufficient to deal with the problem, I'll give advance notice that I intend to sanction Petrarchan47 as an AE action if that disruptive RfC is not withdrawn within 24 hours. Let's see whether ds really does do its job. -- RexxS ( talk) 18:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
If the arbitrators feel that explicitly declaring this (or any) topic as pseudoscience would be a content decision, an alternative option would be to allow the discretionary sanctions to be applied to topics that are described as pseudoscience in independent reliable sources even if that status is disputed. In other words saying that the DS applies to subject areas that are or are called pseudoscience so that the application of DS itself does not require a determination of whether it is or is not pseudoscience and the application of DS does not mean that Wikipedia is necessarily calling something pseudoscience. Thryduulf ( talk) 11:14, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Arbcom created Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Acupuncture for subjects like this, to avoid the conflict between "pseudoscience" and "alternative medicines". Shashank5988 ( talk) 11:46, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
I agree that clarification is needed, inasmuch as a principle from a nearly 14 year old Arbcom case has been leveraged to assert that various subjects are pseudoscience based on ipse dixit declarations by involved editors. If my recollection serves me, previous Arbcoms have opined about this before (someone could perhaps check so that this Arbcom doesn't have to reinvent the wheel). Perhaps it's addressed in this FOF: WP:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Pseudoscience_2.
RexxS has expressed an understanding that, by my interpretation, would cast a broad net over a range of subjects making them automatically classified as pseudoscience based on (I guess) it being "pointed out in a discussion". [8] [9] I think it's self-evident why such an approach to dispute resolution would be problematic. If not, please let me know and I will explain further.
There are proponents with strong views on both side of the dispute at Ayurveda (note: I'm uninvolved). I would aver that simply because members of one side declare that "the position on Wikipedia is that Ayurveda is a pseudoscience as a matter of fact" does not make it so. Nor does it obviate the question in dispute: should the subject be described as pseudoscience in the first sentence of the article? Arbcom either needs to distance themselves from this reasoning or embrace it, because the ambiguity left by a nearly 14 year old Arbcom case has to potential to be weaponized in these disputes. This is not the first article where such a dispute has broken out. - MrX 🖋 19:51, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
"Standard discretionary sanctions are authorised for all articles pages relating to pseudoscience and fringe science, broadly interpreted.". Does anyone disagree that Aruyveda is at least related to pseudoscience and fringe science?
Subjects like Ayurveda are clearly covered by the decision on Complementary and Alternative Medicine [10]. As about pseudoscience, it was another decision [11], with good wording: "Theories which have a following, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community".
In my view, no action is required here because the specific area of Complementary and Alternative Medicine is already covered by your decision. However, what qualify as pseudoscience in general is a good question. I think it is not enough just to say "if there is any plausible dispute over whether DS applies in a specific case". One must have at least one solid RS saying that subject X belongs to pseudoscience. Yes, there are such sources in the case of Ayurveda, although the consensus of RS seems to be this is just a traditional medicine. Should we label all projects in the field of traditional medicine funded by the National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health (a part of National Institutes of Health) as pseudoscience? I doubt. My very best wishes ( talk) 15:49, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
As far as I'm aware, the answer is that the pseudoscience DS apply regardless, but the scope of DS cannot itself affect how the topic is described in an article. This is because the scope follows the concept of
broadly construed - the DS will apply because the question "does this qualify as X?" is itself an X-related topic (otherwise topic-banned editors could wikilawyer endlessly around the edges of their sanction). However, for the same reason, simply being within the scope of X-related DS doesn't actually tell us whether or not the topic is or is not an X. Quoting from
WP:BROADLY (I'm the original author of this text, but it's never been challenged in the more than two years since it was written): "Broadly construed" is also used when defining the topic areas affected by
discretionary sanctions. In particular, if there is any plausible dispute over whether DS applies in a specific case (for example, definitional disputes: whether a particular issue counts as a type of American political issue, whether a particular practice counts as a type of alternative medicine, etc), that is normally taken to mean that it does.
For this particular case, while the article does indeed state that Ayurveda or parts thereof are pseudoscience as a matter of fact (and has done so for a long time), that is because of the strength of the sourcing as determined by previous consensus, rather than being directly determined by ArbCom. The specific statement at
WP:ARBPS#Generally considered pseudoscience does apply, but I think of it as mostly being a confirmation that using the term "pseudoscience" is in fact permissible under these circumstances.
Sunrise (
talk)
10:48, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
I I think the only answer is that all discussions of whether a topic is pseudoscience fall under the pseudoscience DS (that is the entire point of the restrictions, since that is the whole debate that requires DS in that topic area), and that, once the issue has been raised, the entire topic falls under the pseudoscience DS restrictions until there is an affirmative consensus that it is not pseudoscience. As long as there is reasonable doubt that it might be pseudoscience, basically, there is going to be debate of the sort that the DS were specifically created to govern. Obviously the applicability of the DS restrictions in that situation should not itself be taken as an absolute statement that the topic is pseudoscience, merely that it is at least under dispute. -- Aquillion ( talk) 19:01, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
The determination of whether or not something is pseudoscience is a content decision that needs to be made by the community, but the determination of whether or not something falls under the scope of an AC/DS is very much a decision that is ultimately ARBCOM's responsibility. Making that decision does not require a ruling on content as such; it just requires ARBCOM to determine whether the problematic behavior that led to the authorization of DS is present in the topic under consideration. As such, this is a decision ARBCOM needs to be willing to make, regardless of whether another DS regime applies. By refusing to decide whether the pseudoscience DS regime covers Ayurveda, ARBCOM creates the possibility of endless wikilawyering with respect to the scope of such regimes, specifically, the argument that because there is not consensus among reliable sources that a topic is related to the name of a DS regime, that the relevant sanctions do not apply. Vanamonde ( Talk) 16:21, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
I am not sure that this is a problem that Arbcom should try to fix, but I am sure that we have a problem, most of which is the direct result of OpIndia declaring war on Wikipedia and sending an army of twitter followers to the Ayurveda ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) page.
An incomplete history of Wikipedia's previous attempts to solve this problem:
Question I occasionally see comments like "X says he scrambled his password, but we can't verify this". In such cases, is it technically possible to ask the users "are you sure" and then reset the password without telling them what the new password is? Or does the software not allow that? If the answer is yes, should we? -- Guy Macon ( talk) 14:49, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
If the community has determined that Ayurveda is pseudoscience, then ArbCom - which does not make content determinations -- must treat it as pseudoscience and enforce against it any sanctions which are routinely used against pseudoscience. ArbCom has absolutely no remit to overturn a community determination about content. ArbCom's personal or collective opinions on the matter are completely irrelevant, since its hands are tied by the community decision.
That being said, ArbCom could exclude Ayurveda from any specific DS simply by changing the wording of the text and excluding Ayurveda from the definition of "pseudoscience" for the purposes of that sanction.
Beyond My Ken ( talk) 23:32, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
This strikes me as a tempest in a teapot. I am certain that Pseudoscience DS apply. I also think that that job of arbcom is not to adjudicate content. I asked you all some years ago to vacate the nonsense demarcation that a now-disgraced arbitrator penned oh-these-many years ago. The time is now to vacate that. An arbitration decision that says what is or is not pseudoscience is just not a good idea.
If there is a reasonable conflict/discussion about whether arguments about pseudoscience is relevant to a page, the pseudoscience DS are relevant. Obviously, it is relevant to ayurveda. That is as far as arbcom should be moving. I recommend vacating all the attempted demarcation and letting the community get back to business. Yes, that means that DS could be applied to pages relating to psychoanalysis (this is eminently reasonable). After all, WP:FRINGE works pretty well now in comparison to when this case (to which I was a party) was decided.
Love, etc.
jps ( talk) 00:50, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
It is troubling that discretionary sanctions are still in force for a case that is 14 years old. Shouldn't these sanctions have an automatic sunset? The point of sanctions is to solve a problem. Once the problem is solved we should default to our usual rules, which should be sufficient. If a set of sanctions is in force for (to pick an arbitrary term) three years, and the problem still isn't solved, then it's probably time to have a another case to figure out why the problem hasn't been solved, and maybe change the sanctions to something stronger. If an area like American politics is a source of perpetual problems, then we should write that into our community rules and make whatever measures are needed permanent. Jehochman Talk 10:24, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
My views align closer to KrakatoaKatie relative to not knowing what vitamins I should take, if any. As for the content and conduct issues, there appears to be some agreement that ArbCom does not exist to adjudicate article content; count me as a +1. On the other hand, my perspective about DS is that, in practice for the most part, they are neither resolutions nor binding solutions to resolve conduct issues because you cannot bind what is malleable or what was left unresolved. Isn't that why we're here now? DS obliquely, if not directly in some instances, regulate content because they create unintentional hurdles in an environment that is ripe for WP:POV creep, perceived or otherwise. AE grants admins super-authority by allowing them to impose irreversible sanctions against editors in a unilateral action at their sole discretion. In essence, ArbCom is throwing the ball back into the court of irreconcilable differences allowing a single admin to grab the ball and run to the goalpost of their choice (which creates an in the eyes of the beholder decision-making process) and they can do so with no concern of an interception or penalty flag. Most of us try to AGF but as a realist, I'm not quite convinced that decisions based on sole discretion are completely void of prejudice or bias - especially when it involves issues that already failed other DR processes. Give me a choice between sole discretion vs a panel of independent thinkers, and I'll choose the latter. Bottomline, my perception of ArbCom's responsibility is to impose binding solutions to Wikipedia conduct disputes that neither community discussion nor administrators have successfully resolved.. Editors who are elected to serve on ArbCom possess certain qualities that have garnered the community's trust, in part because they have demonstrated sound judgment, fairness and neutrality. There is also the thought that several heads are better than one because it adds an element of diversity. Some of the issues that are perceived to be disruption in highly controversial topic areas are "ended" (not always resolved) by a single admin making a judgment call, and in those cases, the potential for such decisions to be unknowingly influenced by POV or prejudice against an editor is highly plausible. The latter is why the community elected a panel - ArbCom - to handle the difficult cases. Somewhere beyond that is the reason we have so many essays. Atsme Talk 📧 22:36, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
It's not a content decision to decide whether something fits the scope. Ayurveda obviously fits the scope, we all know that here, so that part isn't exceptional. What is exceptional is that nobody wants to say it.
Thus, I think the real lesson here is to create non-inflammatory scopes for a DS. Calling something a "psuedoscience", even under the language of WP:BROADLY, is perceived as inflammatory I guess, which is probably why Arbs don't want to say it. But nobody would hesitate clarifying NRA falls under "organizations associated with [gun control]". PSDS is probably the only active DS with a perceived inflammatory scope. But, as above, AC ultimately still has to decide if an article fits within the scope of a DS, because it's the only body that can, and it has to make this decision (even implicitly) every time it reviews an ARCA for scope overreach. Shying away from that for PSDS doesn't seem like a good idea. Easy way out seems to be a comment along the lines of NYB. ProcrastinatingReader ( talk) 02:55, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
Is aurveda unambiguously pseudoscience? Is the study of ayurveda permeated by pseudoscience? Are these the same thing? That would be an ecumenical matter, but that is not the question here. ArbCom would not mandate that a thing is or is not pseudoscience, they would mandate whether it falls into the pseudoscience DS. Which IMO it does, per WP:BROADLY, because there is, at the very least, solid support in RS for the idea that it is.
There appears to be consensus that the term pseudoscience can be included in the lead, as it is well sourced and in line with our approach to other pseudomedical modalities (as shorthand, Supplements, Complementary and Alternative Medicine or SCAM). The main problem is an endless succession of new single-purpose accounts following a thread on Twitter, a side effect of blowback from recent statements by the Indian medical Association characterising people practising medicine based solely on study of folkways as quacks. This is complicated by the prevalence of ayurveda in India, whose pluralistic and multitheistic culture leads to an acceptance of quasi-religious beliefs as inherently valid. This lack of judgmentalism - a core Indian value - means that quasi-religions alternatives-to-medicine are accorded parity of respect with reality-based medicine, including by the government via its Ministry of Ayurveda, Yoga & Naturopathy, Unani, Siddha and Homoeopathy (AYUSH).
Per DGG's points below, when the original DS were passed on homeopathy in 2006, it was considered thoroughly refuted by informed scientists but it was still actively promoted by national health systems. Since then, Switzerland, the UK, Australia, France, Spain and Russia have been through high level reviews and have recommended withdrawal of funding. In 2006 there were several homeopathic hospitals in the UK funded by the NHS. Now, there are none. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Homeopathy would not happen today, we would simply topic ban Dana Ullman.
The status of aurveda today is not dissimilar from that of homeopathy in 2006. Because it uses pharmacologically active doses it is more resistant to trivial refutation than homeopathy, but the trajectory is similar: it is a pseudomedical system with a growing base of evidence that its fundamental approach is incorrect, and, crucially, it cannot self-correct because any honest test of whether substance A or substance B is better for condition X gives an ideologically unacceptable answer: neither. The reality-based study of herbal preparations - "does this herb contain molecules that may have a curative property" - is called pharmacognosy, ayurveda starts from the incorrect premise that some herb is always a cure and that nothing else is necessary.
The DS are there to manage behavioural issues brought on by asymmetric motivation and the collision of quasi-religious belief with Wikipedia's NPOV policy. That is present here. It needs the provisions of DS now for exactly the same reasons that homeopathy did historically, and in 10-15 years' time these too will probably have become superfluous save for rapidly separating the occasional True Believer from the article. Guy ( help! - typo?) 07:58, 10 September 2020 (UTC) [edited for brevity]
There is justification for a case here, but not because some Indians are pestering editors at Ayurveda with spurious complaints. A potential case should look at the behaviour of editors who have been misrepresenting sources, rejecting needed corrections, and defending the unsupported "Ayurveda (AY) is pseudoscience (PS)" claim as sacrosanct. Editors and Admins have violated WP:V and WP:NPOV to create the article that is causing so much distress.
The Hindu Post has an article calling out the bias on this page, it's worth a look. The laughable idea being floated is that some unidentified tweet is responsible for the flood of criticism, as if to say critiques have no merit.
Today in
this edit,
Guy removed recent corrections to the page, referring to them as "bowing to the Twitter mob", and restored false claims, including a wildly inaccurate claim to first paragraph of the Lede, reinserting: The Indian Medical Association (IMA) characterises the practice of modern medicine by Ayurvedic practitioners as quackery.
In no way does the IMA refer to all practitioners of AY in their statement. The
IMA clearly states that some practitioners of alternative therapies in India are representing themselves as qualified to practice modern medicine, but aren't properly licensed, and they are (rightly) categorized as "quacks".
Google revealed no consensus for "Ayurveda is pseudoscience", but rather justified removing the label. There is no mention of PS in: Merriam Webster, Brittanica, online dictionary, WebMD, John's Hopkins, NIH , or Cancer.gov
Wikipedia is the only major source calling AY PS in unqualified terms. The WP community cannot override the scientific community using shoddy, outdated sources, misrepresenting sources, and WP:SYNTH:
A look at the article
LEDE:
The theory and practice of Ayurveda is pseudoscientific
Sources:
BODY
1) Today, ayurvedic medicine is considered pseudoscientific on account of its confusion between reality and metaphysical concepts.
Source:
2) Ayurvedic practitioner Ram P Manohar writes that Ayurveda has been alternatively characterized as pseudoscientific, protoscientific, and unscientific, and proposes himself that it should be termed "trans-scientific".
Source:
3) Research into ayurveda has been characterized as pseudoscience. Both the lack of scientific soundness in the theoretical foundations of ayurveda and the quality of research have been criticized.
Sources:
petrarchan47 คุ ก 23:55, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
It seems to me that arbitrations are a means to support that admins in highly contentious situations, that is, in situations which they cannot deal with on their own. So we have arbitration, and then perhaps a discretionary sanction so that the admins have something behind her or him when things get rough. Arbitration has declared some subject areas pseudoscience, those "which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience." If arbitration was out of step with the "don't involve themselves in content disputes" well it's too late. Whether Ayurveda is a pseudoscience, "characteristically fail[s] to adhere to scientific standards and methods" or is fringe to the mainstream science is not disputed by numerous sources. Arbs don't have to agree to anything here except to support something they in the past have already agreed on. I don't see the difficulty.
And we don't have to compare Ayurveda to anything. As an alternative medicine system it is thousands of years old so we can expect there to be a huge divide between those who practice or support Ayurveda and modern medicine. I would disagree that the trajectory of Ayurveda is similar to homeopathy. Ayurveda has been around for a very long time, predates organized religion, and physicians are still being trained; my suspicion is that it will be around for a lot longer. None of that matters, though. As long as Wikipedia has both taken the mainstream scientific view and Ayurveda fits that view, then, that's what we deal with in articles. If an admin needs a clarification in a situation that is beyond one person to handle what's the sticking point. (And as aside. I think at times we use pseudoscience and fringe as weapons. Fringe simply means something is not in the mainstream. Yet (possibly). Most if not all research begins as fringe and as non-compliant with our MEDRS articles.) Littleolive oil ( talk) 22:37, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
I've known for years that the Indian medicine articles were hopelessly biased and I've also known for years to not even bother to make any attempt to remove what I see as the blatant bias. India does have doctors and nurses well-trained in western medicine but many of them leave the country because they can earn more money elsewhere and those that don't leave almost invariably choose to practice in the large cities. So that leaves most Indians with Indian medicine as their only choice. So what that comes down to is that we have our encyclopedia saying that most of the people in India are being treated by quacks using pseudoscience. The Indian parliament is not calling their practitioners of Indian medicine quacks. So either they are so ill-informed that they can't understand that only western medicine is real medicine or they just don't care about their own people. I believe that it is racist to call a good number of the Indian people either stupid or uncaring or both. Knowing what I was getting into, but never the less I tried awhile ago to change some wording that I felt was racist in one of the Indian medicine articles and eventually had to give up with many wasted words and a fair amount of wasted time. Quoting Petrarchan above, I was met with the same argument: "The Indian Medical Association (IMA) characterises the practice of modern medicine by Ayurvedic practitioners as quackery. In no way does the IMA refer to all practitioners of AY in their statement. The IMA clearly states that some practitioners of alternative therapies in India are representing themselves as qualified to practice modern medicine, but aren't properly licensed, and they are (rightly) categorized as 'quacks'." IMO both Petrarchan's and Littleolve oil's posts are both spot on. Gandydancer ( talk) 03:16, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Tgeorgescu at 15:50, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Are the sanctions from WP:ARBPS applicable to pseudohistory? tgeorgescu ( talk) 15:50, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
@ BDD: The generic dispute is how fundamentalist believers want to state their own view of the Bible and of the history of Christianity in the voice of Wikipedia, i.e. against rendering the views of mainstream Bible scholars, which fundamentalists consider them to be heretical. But it also covers nationalist pseudohistory (e.g. Dacianism). tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:41, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
It should be considered that, more and more, the study of history, especially ancient history, is coming to be based on scientific data, and, as such, pseudohstory which directly contradicts that data or is not consistent with it should probably be considered to be pseudoscience as well. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 21:37, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
In general, subjects in the field of the humanities are not suitable for considerations as pseudoscience , and I have grave reservations against extending them even into the social sciences. . There may be some areas and topics in history that are essentially pure conspiracy theories and fringe, but in general we can deal with them without the need for the pseudoscience special treatment.
But one area of the humanities is totally inappropriate to be considered pseudoscience, ever, and that is religion. The nature of the evidence in this field sometimes does resemble convention historical thinking, but often does not. I personally have a very strong view that proving truth by personal revelation is never valid, and neither is proving truth by reference to the statements in sacred texts. People active in these areas from some traditions often feel the exact opposite, and it is not for WP to try to decide on this. Within the two religions I know, Judaism and Christianity, arguments about this question has been active on for thousands of years now, and is most unlikely to be settled --at least unless the traditionalists should somehow be correct, and the Last Judgment should intervene. What WP should never be doing is deciding on the status of religious questions. If there are multiple views, they must be presented, but the wording of an article should never imply that any one particular version is Correct. The 1907 Catholic Encyclopedia , of course, thought about this differently, and they had every right to. DGG ( talk ) 17:35, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
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Note: This is the first time I had ever made a section like this. I hope I have not made a mistake with dividing my comment into sections or having placed any sections in the wrong place.
My relation to this topic does not originate in the "creation of the universe" debate, but rather a debate I had with User:Tommysun in Talk:Crop circle regarding much of the same issues: pseudoscience, NPOV, undue weight, and so on. On the way, I picked up much of what I will present now through my own research from WP:NPOV, Pseudoscience, the research I did on crop circles, and what Tommy said. Most of the things that I know about the subject of cosmic infaltion, tired light, etc. come from what I read in the past two days; I do not have comprehensive knowledge in this area. The examples given in this section may not be accurate in terms of what actually happened, but are there serve to make a point about pseudoscience and Wikipedia. This was written over a period of hours throughout the entire day in periods of free time.
Problem: Look at its talk page and you see what I mean; there is no agreement on what exactly is pseudoscience and what is not, everyone thinks what they are doing is correct. People who are studying what most scientists would consider "pseudoscience" believe the opposite, as do the people who read their works and believe in what they do. Meanwhile, the people who side with mainstream science have difficulty why the pseudoscience is in fact pseudoscience and not just something that they are not willing to believe in because it seems implausible. And that is exactly the case, there is no real definition of pseudoscience. What happens is that when a person studies something carefully and in depth to the point where he/she believes all arguments about it, all contradicting view immediately becomes plain out incorrect and stupid, and as a result pseudoscientific, since science does not do things that are stupid and incorrect.
Problem: The controversy over NPOV lies almost exclusively over this single sentence, found in WP:NPOV#Undue weight:
NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all (by example, the article on the Earth only very briefly refers to the Flat Earth theory, a view of a distinct minority).
The following problems exist:
It doesn't matter whether you take someone who takes a point on a majority view, or a point on the minority view, if the person holds strong to their beliefs, no productive work will get done on the Wikipedia article due to edit wars. People are not willing give away article space to the other viewpoint, they are not willing to listen to others, but boldly stide around proposing that their own viewpoint is correct. This is with both sides in this argument, both with people who support the big bang theory, and with those that oppose it, and it is what causes the massive edit wars, which is fueled even further because of the NPOV policy of undue weight. This is a problem with all of Wikipedia, not just this specific instance of it, because when people see that they can edit the encyclopedia that is read by millions of people, they add their own viewpoints to it and improve on it, while people on the other side refuse to let the viewpoint be heard. I have no idea what to do with this problem, though.
Dieting has been shown to have little long-term benefits, and certain popular diets in particular (Dukan, Paeliolithic) are particularly poor. Could they be classified as pseudo-science, including the page on Dieting giving a positive description of detox dieting? 203.129.51.51 ( talk) 06:36, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Iantresman at 01:08, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
Over 5 years ago, I was topic banned under Discretionary Sanctions for discussing a source. I wish to have this decision reversed.
The fact is, that I never edited the article against consensus. I don't believe that Wikipedia ever set out to ban editors who discuss sources in good faith, and didn't intend Discretionary Sanctions to be over-extended in this way. -- Iantresman ( talk) 01:08, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
Notes
This appears to be an attempt to relitigate the merits of a 5-year-old AE action instead of anything resembling a request to lift the sanction as no longer necessary. As I do not believe the committee should be entertaining requests of the former category five years after the fact, I do not intend to respond substantively unless requested by the committee. T. Canens ( talk) 02:15, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
As a disinterested outsider with no familiarity with the events descriped by the OP, I can say that the OP makes a compelling case for having been wrongly sanctioned. Assuming -in my usual cynical way- that the initial discussion with OP was hair-pullingly frustrating for those who disagree with them, I still can't see that as requiring anything more than a 6 month topic ban at worst.
While the committee may not be interested in relitigating old disputes (which is some bullshit, all in itself; it's essentially saying that ArbCom doesn't make mistakes), I wonder if the committee is possessed of that typical human ability to read between the lines: The OP is requesting that a 5-year-old sanction which they have abided in good faith, despite believing that it was wrongly and unfairly imposed should be lifted because the OP has given 5 years worth of evidence that they are perfectly capable of controlling themselves in this subject area. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:52, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
I have to agree with MjolnirPants. If it is valid to say that a sanction is no longer necessary then it is also valid to say that it was never necessary. All our AE admins are volunteers and human beings, and it is possible for them to make mistakes. Even if the principal issue is whether the sanction is necessary now, regardless of whether it ever was, then "I didn't do X in the first place" is a point in the claimant's favor. It means he can be trusted not to start. It certainly shouldn't be held against him. If lantresman was willing to submit to the admins' authority and obey a punishment that he believes he did not deserve (even if he believes wrongly), that is also a point showing that he can work in a collaborative project. We all have to bite our tongues sometime. If pleading innocent is enough to get a request automatically thrown out, I have to wonder what editors who were or believe themselves to be wrongly sanctioned are supposed to do. Darkfrog24 ( talk) 21:49, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
Is there a time limit for asking that a sanction be reversed? Most often I've seen requests refused because enough time had not passed. This is confusing for editors. I agree with Darkfrog and Mpants. This is a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. What is there in this editor's history that says he is not worthy of a revisit to his sanction? Above all what is missing in most AEs is that admins and arbs do not ask questions of the editor applying. If you don't understand, ask him, communicate with him; don't assume you understand. The concern here is that an editor has no recourse. We should be trying to hold on to editors, helping them edit, to be productive.( Littleolive oil ( talk) 22:48, 29 December 2017 (UTC))
Comment made before Thryduulf's cmt to Olive below... and thank you for your response. I understand the distinction but does every editor who appeals understand these kinds of distinctions before thy appeal. Do you see what I am saying?
While your explanations are sensible, logical and beautifully worded, they are the understanding of the admins and arbs not the editor who appeals. That an editor chooses "not to appeal on the merits of the original sanction for such a prolonged period of time is acceptance of the merits" assumes that the editor knows how to word or create an appeal that is within the realm of how the admins/arbs believe and expect a case should be presented and worded. My own experience is that editors do not always know how to word an appeal, do not have that view into the perspective of those they are dealing with. This is especially true for editors with less experience. We are throwing out cases because they are not presented in a way that is acceptable rather than that they are with out merit seems to me. That's why its imperative to ask an editor what they are saying or asking for. Right now its a guessing game as to how to present a case as to what to say or how to present information. Admins and arbs are seeing this from one view editors from another. With experience sure, editors can become good at presenting their cases, but the less experienced in the ways of AEs are severely handicapped. While Wikipedia was not originally designed to be punitive we are punishing editors for lacking knowledge and experience in presenting their cases. ( Littleolive oil ( talk) 23:44, 29 December 2017 (UTC))
( edit conflict) @ Darkfrog24: The root cause of (almost) every sanction is that one or more editors are unable to work constructively with the community or a subset of it (which can be as small as one other editor), either generally or in relation to a specific topic area. Sanctions should be, and mostly are, preventative not punitive - that is intended to allow editors to be productive and constructive in ways/areas where they can be while protecting the project by preventing them disrupting other areas. People can change, people can mature and (relevant in some cases) real-world situations can change so that the restrictions are no needed. Indeed in an ideal world every sanction would at some point no longer be necessary. For this reason appeals should always be focused on explaining/demonstrating why sanctions are no longer needed now. Whether they were needed at some point in the past has increasingly little relevance the longer ago that point was. I also strongly agree with BU Rob13 when they say "Choosing not to appeal on the merits of the original sanction for such a prolonged period of time is acceptance of the merits".
As for the specific sanctions here, I think that in December 2017 is completely irrelevant at this point whether they were required when imposed in November 2012, but that if they weren't required then they should have been appealed when they were still relevant. It's probably also worth noting that real world events seem to have changed, in that in 2012 Plasma cosmology was described as a fringe theory that had not been critically evaluated (or at least had not had a significant amount of critical evaluation). In the intervening five years though it seems that it has been evaluated and rejected - which could have a significant impact on how the need for sanctions would be evaluated. Thryduulf ( talk) 23:18, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
@ Littleolive oil: There is a distinction being made here between appealing a restriction on the grounds that it wasn't required when imposed, and appealing a restriction on the grounds that it isn't required now. The first sort of appeal should be made relatively soon after the restriction was imposed (how long exactly will vary based on different circumstances, but certainly beyond a year I'd be looking for some accompanying explanation about why the appeal wasn't made originally and why it is still relevant - an absence from the project for unavoidable real-world reasons would be one possible example.). The second sort of appeal should, in contrast, not be made too quickly because to be successful the person appealing will need to show that one or more things have changed and that just isn't possible immediately. Again different circumstances will dictate different lengths of time but in most cases less than 3-6 months is going to require evidence that something significant in the real world has changed - an example being the various restrictions imposed in the run up to the 2016 US presidential election were set to expire when the losing candidate conceded defeat, even though this was only expected to be a few weeks away (maybe less), as many of the problems were related to speculation about the outcome and/or its consequences. Thryduulf ( talk) 23:32, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
@ Iantresman: I have no interest at this point in reviewing five-year-old discussions to re-litigate a five-year-old topic ban, and the arbs below have indicated the same thing. If you want your appeal to be successful you need to demonstrate that your current behaviour and interactions mean that the topic ban is no longer required - whether it ever was is not relevant. I suggest that at this point it's probably best to withdraw this appeal, take a bit of time (a few days at least, probably at least a week is better. Certainly wait until after this appeal is archived) to work on a new appeal in your userspace that relates to your current behaviour - there are editors who will help you with this if you ask (although I can't remember where to find them off the top of my head, asking at the Wikipedia:Help desk will lead you to them if you can't find them directly). If you want to get advice on your editing style, then or now, then this is not the right forum in which to get it ( Wikipedia:Teahouse or using the {{ help me}} template on your talk page are). One thing though that will definitely count against an appeal is not listening to advice given to you. Thryduulf ( talk) 01:12, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
@
Darkfrog24: "If you do not appeal your sanctions right away and in as loud a voice as possible, we will interpret that as a confession/guilty plea and you will permanently lose your right to argue otherwise." That's not what I'm saying, and not what I interpret the arbs or anyone else (other than you) saying. The point is that you always need to appeal on the basis of why a remedy is not needed now. In practical terms this means that if you appeal in the first period then you need to show why the sanction was not necessary in the first place, and if you appeal in the second period then you need to show what has changed to mean it is no longer necessary (whether or not it ever was). The first period generally runs from immediately after the sanction was imposed through to around 2-6 months later, and the second period generally from around 6 weeks after it was placed and doesn't end (unless the restrictions expire or are lifted), although there are plenty of circumstances that can extend either period forwards or backwards.
Thryduulf (
talk)
15:16, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
@
SMcCandlish: A couple of quick points. I'm not saying that if you don't appeal the merits of your sanction in the first period after it is imposed that this is a concession that it was valid, just that for the purposes of a later appeal it is rarely relevant whether it was or was not valid or required at the time (and so it's easier for everybody to just treat it as if it was) - i.e. explain why the sanction isn't required now, whether it ever was or not. Regarding timescales, as I said there are many factors that can move either period in either direction, and yes some can be quite significant in terms of time, but if you are making an appeal significantly outside the usual timeframe then I expect the person appealing to acknowledge this and note what the factors are that mean an appeal to the initial validity is still relevant after a long time or why something has changed so much sooner than would normally be expected (and obviously people may disagree about what is and isn't relevant). In terms of this appeal, I'm not seeing anything that convinces me that it is worth considering whether the sanction was valid 5 years ago, nor initially was there anything presented on which to judge an appeal regarding whether it is required now.
Thryduulf (
talk)
15:14, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
Holy exploding wikilawyering, Batman! Per MPants and Euryalus - just lift the sanction and move on... -- Begoon 12:25, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
Too many ifs and buts. Lift the ban already. Bishonen | talk 16:39, 1 January 2018 (UTC).
I think the appellant's request for the topic ban to be lifted should be granted, since it's unlikely this serves any preventative purpose at all now. It's also fairly unlikely it ever did, though that may not be relevant to the decision.
I think what's happening here is some parties are bureaucratically treating this like a courtroom, and wikilawyering ("ha ha, he said 'have this decision reversed', and I can willfully choose to interpret that as 'have the record expunged' instead of 'have the effect of the decision terminated', and hot damn I'm clever'). It's patently obvious what the intent of the request is. Whether someone agrees with how the person feels about the nature and rationale of the original sanction when it was issued, and wants to litigate about whether someone should be able to appeal a sanction after X amount of time, it doesn't change the obvious underlying nature of the request.
That said, I would like to address the wonkish FBDB procedural stuff:
So, No double-standards, please. Especially since it's actually a triple standard: If you're not one of the AE in-crowd and attempt to use evidence more than about a year old, you may find yourself boomeranged for it, as I did, while those doing the boomeranging will themselves use even older evidence against you. If that sounds too hypocritical to be real, I assure you it is not. I've also seen an Arb, who was supposed to be arbitrating, turn prosecutor and go digging up extraneous dirt almost a year old looking for reasons to oppose an appeal, rather than weighing the evidence presented. Was several years ago, but it happened and nothing was done about it, so it could happen again. Give appellants a lot of procedural slack. We want to retain editors and get them editing as broadly as they're competent to contribute. ArbCom's goal is not to WP:WIN at being a prosecution simulator.
Normally I would automatically assume the first of these two meanings. But said commenter's "topic bans ... [are] like a brand that says 'filth.' There should be some avenue toward having it removed. Surely no one here thinks that ... sanctioned editors have to apologize for actions that they did not perform" leans toward the second.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 14:24, 4 January 2018 (UTC); revised: 00:56, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
I think this has turned semi-sour only because of the imprecise "have this decision reversed" opening wording, later restated more clearly as "would ... like to edit articles in these subject areas". ArbCom doesn't have its hands tied, and does not have to respond to this request by literally vacating the original sanction; it can simply lift it as not likely to be preventative of actual disruption. For those who love to play moot court, it's a normal legal process to parole people from prison, without getting into whether the original prosecution was valid (absent a showing of prosecutorial misconduct or the like).
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<
00:56, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
Ian Tresman was an original named party of the 2006 case, WP:ARBPS. He is a supporter of plasma universe ideas, generally considered on WP to be pseudoscience. (Arbcom, in its 2006 WP:ARBPS decision, made a finding of fact which linked to Ian Tresman's personal website). In a 15 July 2007 posting at WP:COIN, Ian stated "I have not used a pseudonym. My interests are readily found..."). Ian is not here arguing that his topic ban from plasma physics is no longer necessary, he is arguing that an AE decision about him from 2012 was wrongly decided. Those diffs are all available for review, so nothing prevents Arbcom from looking into this if they want to. The only problem is that some memories may have faded, but there should still be enough to go on. (The AE complaint was about inappropriate insistence on Ian's part about including a book, claimed to be tainted by fringe thinking, into the reference list of our article on Dusty plasma, which is a mainstream non-fringe topic in astronomy).
When Arbcom reviews AE decisions they often use the standard of 'within discretion', and from the limited data presented in this appeal, nothing jumps out to me as *not* within discretion. (Of course, I might say that because I did participate in the 2012 AE decision, though only to say that the user was adequately warned about discretionary sanctions). The question of whether Ian's topic ban is still necessary is a different question for which different data might need to be looked at, none of which is presented here. When admins are reviewing topic bans it is a common to say that 'indef topic bans can't be waited out'. In other words, there needs to be a record of positive editing (or an indication of a change of heart) to show that the previous problems won't recur. None of that data is included here, and I'd recommend that Arbcom decline this appeal. User:Callanecc has made other proposals below (Jan. 2) for what Ian might do next, including asking for AE review. EdJohnston ( talk) 04:55, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by RexxS at 21:47, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
I apologise for making what appears to be a content-related request, but the behaviour of editors at Ayurveda and Talk:Ayurveda needs to be restrained, and a simple confirmation should be all that's needed to clarify the underlying issues.
Following a contentious edit war at Ayurveda and a WP:AE discussion, El C created an RfC at resolve the question of whether the phrase "pseudoscience" should be in the lead. The debate involved over 60 editors, was closed as no-consensus, reviewed, and re-opened for closure by an admin.
Many proponents of Ayurveda have taken the opportunity in that debate to argue that Ayurveda is not pseudoscientific and are attempting to have the phrase removed entirely. I believe that the position on Wikipedia is that Ayurveda is a pseudoscience as a matter of fact. I am therefore seeking a clear confirmation from ArbCom that the article is subject to discretionary sanctions as a pseudoscience (as even that fact has been contested). Having a clear statement of the position will enable a closer to accurately weigh the strengths of the arguments and to reject entirely arguments that clearly contradict Wikipedia policy on pseudoscience.
In the decision at WP:ARBPS#Generally considered pseudoscience, ArbCom asserted the principleI would like a clarification that the principle includes Ayurveda in the same way as astrology, and consequently that Ayurveda can be considered in the same light.Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience.
Thank you in advance for your assistance in this matter. -- RexxS ( talk) 21:47, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
If the 2020 committee feels unable to affirm that Ayurveda is included in the principle "Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience." that the 2006 committee passed 8-0, then so be it: I won't take up any more of your time. -- RexxS ( talk) 17:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
The actions of Petrarchan47 in starting yet another RfC at Talk:Ayurveda on an issue that was settled two weeks ago are a shining example of the sort of disruption that is being caused in this area following Opindia's campaign to distort Wikipedia's decision-making processes. Regular editors are becoming weary of the time-sink involved in dealing with questions that have been repeatedly asked and answered. As I've been assured that discretionary sanctions are sufficient to deal with the problem, I'll give advance notice that I intend to sanction Petrarchan47 as an AE action if that disruptive RfC is not withdrawn within 24 hours. Let's see whether ds really does do its job. -- RexxS ( talk) 18:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
If the arbitrators feel that explicitly declaring this (or any) topic as pseudoscience would be a content decision, an alternative option would be to allow the discretionary sanctions to be applied to topics that are described as pseudoscience in independent reliable sources even if that status is disputed. In other words saying that the DS applies to subject areas that are or are called pseudoscience so that the application of DS itself does not require a determination of whether it is or is not pseudoscience and the application of DS does not mean that Wikipedia is necessarily calling something pseudoscience. Thryduulf ( talk) 11:14, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Arbcom created Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Acupuncture for subjects like this, to avoid the conflict between "pseudoscience" and "alternative medicines". Shashank5988 ( talk) 11:46, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
I agree that clarification is needed, inasmuch as a principle from a nearly 14 year old Arbcom case has been leveraged to assert that various subjects are pseudoscience based on ipse dixit declarations by involved editors. If my recollection serves me, previous Arbcoms have opined about this before (someone could perhaps check so that this Arbcom doesn't have to reinvent the wheel). Perhaps it's addressed in this FOF: WP:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Pseudoscience_2.
RexxS has expressed an understanding that, by my interpretation, would cast a broad net over a range of subjects making them automatically classified as pseudoscience based on (I guess) it being "pointed out in a discussion". [8] [9] I think it's self-evident why such an approach to dispute resolution would be problematic. If not, please let me know and I will explain further.
There are proponents with strong views on both side of the dispute at Ayurveda (note: I'm uninvolved). I would aver that simply because members of one side declare that "the position on Wikipedia is that Ayurveda is a pseudoscience as a matter of fact" does not make it so. Nor does it obviate the question in dispute: should the subject be described as pseudoscience in the first sentence of the article? Arbcom either needs to distance themselves from this reasoning or embrace it, because the ambiguity left by a nearly 14 year old Arbcom case has to potential to be weaponized in these disputes. This is not the first article where such a dispute has broken out. - MrX 🖋 19:51, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
"Standard discretionary sanctions are authorised for all articles pages relating to pseudoscience and fringe science, broadly interpreted.". Does anyone disagree that Aruyveda is at least related to pseudoscience and fringe science?
Subjects like Ayurveda are clearly covered by the decision on Complementary and Alternative Medicine [10]. As about pseudoscience, it was another decision [11], with good wording: "Theories which have a following, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community".
In my view, no action is required here because the specific area of Complementary and Alternative Medicine is already covered by your decision. However, what qualify as pseudoscience in general is a good question. I think it is not enough just to say "if there is any plausible dispute over whether DS applies in a specific case". One must have at least one solid RS saying that subject X belongs to pseudoscience. Yes, there are such sources in the case of Ayurveda, although the consensus of RS seems to be this is just a traditional medicine. Should we label all projects in the field of traditional medicine funded by the National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health (a part of National Institutes of Health) as pseudoscience? I doubt. My very best wishes ( talk) 15:49, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
As far as I'm aware, the answer is that the pseudoscience DS apply regardless, but the scope of DS cannot itself affect how the topic is described in an article. This is because the scope follows the concept of
broadly construed - the DS will apply because the question "does this qualify as X?" is itself an X-related topic (otherwise topic-banned editors could wikilawyer endlessly around the edges of their sanction). However, for the same reason, simply being within the scope of X-related DS doesn't actually tell us whether or not the topic is or is not an X. Quoting from
WP:BROADLY (I'm the original author of this text, but it's never been challenged in the more than two years since it was written): "Broadly construed" is also used when defining the topic areas affected by
discretionary sanctions. In particular, if there is any plausible dispute over whether DS applies in a specific case (for example, definitional disputes: whether a particular issue counts as a type of American political issue, whether a particular practice counts as a type of alternative medicine, etc), that is normally taken to mean that it does.
For this particular case, while the article does indeed state that Ayurveda or parts thereof are pseudoscience as a matter of fact (and has done so for a long time), that is because of the strength of the sourcing as determined by previous consensus, rather than being directly determined by ArbCom. The specific statement at
WP:ARBPS#Generally considered pseudoscience does apply, but I think of it as mostly being a confirmation that using the term "pseudoscience" is in fact permissible under these circumstances.
Sunrise (
talk)
10:48, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
I I think the only answer is that all discussions of whether a topic is pseudoscience fall under the pseudoscience DS (that is the entire point of the restrictions, since that is the whole debate that requires DS in that topic area), and that, once the issue has been raised, the entire topic falls under the pseudoscience DS restrictions until there is an affirmative consensus that it is not pseudoscience. As long as there is reasonable doubt that it might be pseudoscience, basically, there is going to be debate of the sort that the DS were specifically created to govern. Obviously the applicability of the DS restrictions in that situation should not itself be taken as an absolute statement that the topic is pseudoscience, merely that it is at least under dispute. -- Aquillion ( talk) 19:01, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
The determination of whether or not something is pseudoscience is a content decision that needs to be made by the community, but the determination of whether or not something falls under the scope of an AC/DS is very much a decision that is ultimately ARBCOM's responsibility. Making that decision does not require a ruling on content as such; it just requires ARBCOM to determine whether the problematic behavior that led to the authorization of DS is present in the topic under consideration. As such, this is a decision ARBCOM needs to be willing to make, regardless of whether another DS regime applies. By refusing to decide whether the pseudoscience DS regime covers Ayurveda, ARBCOM creates the possibility of endless wikilawyering with respect to the scope of such regimes, specifically, the argument that because there is not consensus among reliable sources that a topic is related to the name of a DS regime, that the relevant sanctions do not apply. Vanamonde ( Talk) 16:21, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
I am not sure that this is a problem that Arbcom should try to fix, but I am sure that we have a problem, most of which is the direct result of OpIndia declaring war on Wikipedia and sending an army of twitter followers to the Ayurveda ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) page.
An incomplete history of Wikipedia's previous attempts to solve this problem:
Question I occasionally see comments like "X says he scrambled his password, but we can't verify this". In such cases, is it technically possible to ask the users "are you sure" and then reset the password without telling them what the new password is? Or does the software not allow that? If the answer is yes, should we? -- Guy Macon ( talk) 14:49, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
If the community has determined that Ayurveda is pseudoscience, then ArbCom - which does not make content determinations -- must treat it as pseudoscience and enforce against it any sanctions which are routinely used against pseudoscience. ArbCom has absolutely no remit to overturn a community determination about content. ArbCom's personal or collective opinions on the matter are completely irrelevant, since its hands are tied by the community decision.
That being said, ArbCom could exclude Ayurveda from any specific DS simply by changing the wording of the text and excluding Ayurveda from the definition of "pseudoscience" for the purposes of that sanction.
Beyond My Ken ( talk) 23:32, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
This strikes me as a tempest in a teapot. I am certain that Pseudoscience DS apply. I also think that that job of arbcom is not to adjudicate content. I asked you all some years ago to vacate the nonsense demarcation that a now-disgraced arbitrator penned oh-these-many years ago. The time is now to vacate that. An arbitration decision that says what is or is not pseudoscience is just not a good idea.
If there is a reasonable conflict/discussion about whether arguments about pseudoscience is relevant to a page, the pseudoscience DS are relevant. Obviously, it is relevant to ayurveda. That is as far as arbcom should be moving. I recommend vacating all the attempted demarcation and letting the community get back to business. Yes, that means that DS could be applied to pages relating to psychoanalysis (this is eminently reasonable). After all, WP:FRINGE works pretty well now in comparison to when this case (to which I was a party) was decided.
Love, etc.
jps ( talk) 00:50, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
It is troubling that discretionary sanctions are still in force for a case that is 14 years old. Shouldn't these sanctions have an automatic sunset? The point of sanctions is to solve a problem. Once the problem is solved we should default to our usual rules, which should be sufficient. If a set of sanctions is in force for (to pick an arbitrary term) three years, and the problem still isn't solved, then it's probably time to have a another case to figure out why the problem hasn't been solved, and maybe change the sanctions to something stronger. If an area like American politics is a source of perpetual problems, then we should write that into our community rules and make whatever measures are needed permanent. Jehochman Talk 10:24, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
My views align closer to KrakatoaKatie relative to not knowing what vitamins I should take, if any. As for the content and conduct issues, there appears to be some agreement that ArbCom does not exist to adjudicate article content; count me as a +1. On the other hand, my perspective about DS is that, in practice for the most part, they are neither resolutions nor binding solutions to resolve conduct issues because you cannot bind what is malleable or what was left unresolved. Isn't that why we're here now? DS obliquely, if not directly in some instances, regulate content because they create unintentional hurdles in an environment that is ripe for WP:POV creep, perceived or otherwise. AE grants admins super-authority by allowing them to impose irreversible sanctions against editors in a unilateral action at their sole discretion. In essence, ArbCom is throwing the ball back into the court of irreconcilable differences allowing a single admin to grab the ball and run to the goalpost of their choice (which creates an in the eyes of the beholder decision-making process) and they can do so with no concern of an interception or penalty flag. Most of us try to AGF but as a realist, I'm not quite convinced that decisions based on sole discretion are completely void of prejudice or bias - especially when it involves issues that already failed other DR processes. Give me a choice between sole discretion vs a panel of independent thinkers, and I'll choose the latter. Bottomline, my perception of ArbCom's responsibility is to impose binding solutions to Wikipedia conduct disputes that neither community discussion nor administrators have successfully resolved.. Editors who are elected to serve on ArbCom possess certain qualities that have garnered the community's trust, in part because they have demonstrated sound judgment, fairness and neutrality. There is also the thought that several heads are better than one because it adds an element of diversity. Some of the issues that are perceived to be disruption in highly controversial topic areas are "ended" (not always resolved) by a single admin making a judgment call, and in those cases, the potential for such decisions to be unknowingly influenced by POV or prejudice against an editor is highly plausible. The latter is why the community elected a panel - ArbCom - to handle the difficult cases. Somewhere beyond that is the reason we have so many essays. Atsme Talk 📧 22:36, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
It's not a content decision to decide whether something fits the scope. Ayurveda obviously fits the scope, we all know that here, so that part isn't exceptional. What is exceptional is that nobody wants to say it.
Thus, I think the real lesson here is to create non-inflammatory scopes for a DS. Calling something a "psuedoscience", even under the language of WP:BROADLY, is perceived as inflammatory I guess, which is probably why Arbs don't want to say it. But nobody would hesitate clarifying NRA falls under "organizations associated with [gun control]". PSDS is probably the only active DS with a perceived inflammatory scope. But, as above, AC ultimately still has to decide if an article fits within the scope of a DS, because it's the only body that can, and it has to make this decision (even implicitly) every time it reviews an ARCA for scope overreach. Shying away from that for PSDS doesn't seem like a good idea. Easy way out seems to be a comment along the lines of NYB. ProcrastinatingReader ( talk) 02:55, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
Is aurveda unambiguously pseudoscience? Is the study of ayurveda permeated by pseudoscience? Are these the same thing? That would be an ecumenical matter, but that is not the question here. ArbCom would not mandate that a thing is or is not pseudoscience, they would mandate whether it falls into the pseudoscience DS. Which IMO it does, per WP:BROADLY, because there is, at the very least, solid support in RS for the idea that it is.
There appears to be consensus that the term pseudoscience can be included in the lead, as it is well sourced and in line with our approach to other pseudomedical modalities (as shorthand, Supplements, Complementary and Alternative Medicine or SCAM). The main problem is an endless succession of new single-purpose accounts following a thread on Twitter, a side effect of blowback from recent statements by the Indian medical Association characterising people practising medicine based solely on study of folkways as quacks. This is complicated by the prevalence of ayurveda in India, whose pluralistic and multitheistic culture leads to an acceptance of quasi-religious beliefs as inherently valid. This lack of judgmentalism - a core Indian value - means that quasi-religions alternatives-to-medicine are accorded parity of respect with reality-based medicine, including by the government via its Ministry of Ayurveda, Yoga & Naturopathy, Unani, Siddha and Homoeopathy (AYUSH).
Per DGG's points below, when the original DS were passed on homeopathy in 2006, it was considered thoroughly refuted by informed scientists but it was still actively promoted by national health systems. Since then, Switzerland, the UK, Australia, France, Spain and Russia have been through high level reviews and have recommended withdrawal of funding. In 2006 there were several homeopathic hospitals in the UK funded by the NHS. Now, there are none. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Homeopathy would not happen today, we would simply topic ban Dana Ullman.
The status of aurveda today is not dissimilar from that of homeopathy in 2006. Because it uses pharmacologically active doses it is more resistant to trivial refutation than homeopathy, but the trajectory is similar: it is a pseudomedical system with a growing base of evidence that its fundamental approach is incorrect, and, crucially, it cannot self-correct because any honest test of whether substance A or substance B is better for condition X gives an ideologically unacceptable answer: neither. The reality-based study of herbal preparations - "does this herb contain molecules that may have a curative property" - is called pharmacognosy, ayurveda starts from the incorrect premise that some herb is always a cure and that nothing else is necessary.
The DS are there to manage behavioural issues brought on by asymmetric motivation and the collision of quasi-religious belief with Wikipedia's NPOV policy. That is present here. It needs the provisions of DS now for exactly the same reasons that homeopathy did historically, and in 10-15 years' time these too will probably have become superfluous save for rapidly separating the occasional True Believer from the article. Guy ( help! - typo?) 07:58, 10 September 2020 (UTC) [edited for brevity]
There is justification for a case here, but not because some Indians are pestering editors at Ayurveda with spurious complaints. A potential case should look at the behaviour of editors who have been misrepresenting sources, rejecting needed corrections, and defending the unsupported "Ayurveda (AY) is pseudoscience (PS)" claim as sacrosanct. Editors and Admins have violated WP:V and WP:NPOV to create the article that is causing so much distress.
The Hindu Post has an article calling out the bias on this page, it's worth a look. The laughable idea being floated is that some unidentified tweet is responsible for the flood of criticism, as if to say critiques have no merit.
Today in
this edit,
Guy removed recent corrections to the page, referring to them as "bowing to the Twitter mob", and restored false claims, including a wildly inaccurate claim to first paragraph of the Lede, reinserting: The Indian Medical Association (IMA) characterises the practice of modern medicine by Ayurvedic practitioners as quackery.
In no way does the IMA refer to all practitioners of AY in their statement. The
IMA clearly states that some practitioners of alternative therapies in India are representing themselves as qualified to practice modern medicine, but aren't properly licensed, and they are (rightly) categorized as "quacks".
Google revealed no consensus for "Ayurveda is pseudoscience", but rather justified removing the label. There is no mention of PS in: Merriam Webster, Brittanica, online dictionary, WebMD, John's Hopkins, NIH , or Cancer.gov
Wikipedia is the only major source calling AY PS in unqualified terms. The WP community cannot override the scientific community using shoddy, outdated sources, misrepresenting sources, and WP:SYNTH:
A look at the article
LEDE:
The theory and practice of Ayurveda is pseudoscientific
Sources:
BODY
1) Today, ayurvedic medicine is considered pseudoscientific on account of its confusion between reality and metaphysical concepts.
Source:
2) Ayurvedic practitioner Ram P Manohar writes that Ayurveda has been alternatively characterized as pseudoscientific, protoscientific, and unscientific, and proposes himself that it should be termed "trans-scientific".
Source:
3) Research into ayurveda has been characterized as pseudoscience. Both the lack of scientific soundness in the theoretical foundations of ayurveda and the quality of research have been criticized.
Sources:
petrarchan47 คุ ก 23:55, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
It seems to me that arbitrations are a means to support that admins in highly contentious situations, that is, in situations which they cannot deal with on their own. So we have arbitration, and then perhaps a discretionary sanction so that the admins have something behind her or him when things get rough. Arbitration has declared some subject areas pseudoscience, those "which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience." If arbitration was out of step with the "don't involve themselves in content disputes" well it's too late. Whether Ayurveda is a pseudoscience, "characteristically fail[s] to adhere to scientific standards and methods" or is fringe to the mainstream science is not disputed by numerous sources. Arbs don't have to agree to anything here except to support something they in the past have already agreed on. I don't see the difficulty.
And we don't have to compare Ayurveda to anything. As an alternative medicine system it is thousands of years old so we can expect there to be a huge divide between those who practice or support Ayurveda and modern medicine. I would disagree that the trajectory of Ayurveda is similar to homeopathy. Ayurveda has been around for a very long time, predates organized religion, and physicians are still being trained; my suspicion is that it will be around for a lot longer. None of that matters, though. As long as Wikipedia has both taken the mainstream scientific view and Ayurveda fits that view, then, that's what we deal with in articles. If an admin needs a clarification in a situation that is beyond one person to handle what's the sticking point. (And as aside. I think at times we use pseudoscience and fringe as weapons. Fringe simply means something is not in the mainstream. Yet (possibly). Most if not all research begins as fringe and as non-compliant with our MEDRS articles.) Littleolive oil ( talk) 22:37, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
I've known for years that the Indian medicine articles were hopelessly biased and I've also known for years to not even bother to make any attempt to remove what I see as the blatant bias. India does have doctors and nurses well-trained in western medicine but many of them leave the country because they can earn more money elsewhere and those that don't leave almost invariably choose to practice in the large cities. So that leaves most Indians with Indian medicine as their only choice. So what that comes down to is that we have our encyclopedia saying that most of the people in India are being treated by quacks using pseudoscience. The Indian parliament is not calling their practitioners of Indian medicine quacks. So either they are so ill-informed that they can't understand that only western medicine is real medicine or they just don't care about their own people. I believe that it is racist to call a good number of the Indian people either stupid or uncaring or both. Knowing what I was getting into, but never the less I tried awhile ago to change some wording that I felt was racist in one of the Indian medicine articles and eventually had to give up with many wasted words and a fair amount of wasted time. Quoting Petrarchan above, I was met with the same argument: "The Indian Medical Association (IMA) characterises the practice of modern medicine by Ayurvedic practitioners as quackery. In no way does the IMA refer to all practitioners of AY in their statement. The IMA clearly states that some practitioners of alternative therapies in India are representing themselves as qualified to practice modern medicine, but aren't properly licensed, and they are (rightly) categorized as 'quacks'." IMO both Petrarchan's and Littleolve oil's posts are both spot on. Gandydancer ( talk) 03:16, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Tgeorgescu at 15:50, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Are the sanctions from WP:ARBPS applicable to pseudohistory? tgeorgescu ( talk) 15:50, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
@ BDD: The generic dispute is how fundamentalist believers want to state their own view of the Bible and of the history of Christianity in the voice of Wikipedia, i.e. against rendering the views of mainstream Bible scholars, which fundamentalists consider them to be heretical. But it also covers nationalist pseudohistory (e.g. Dacianism). tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:41, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
It should be considered that, more and more, the study of history, especially ancient history, is coming to be based on scientific data, and, as such, pseudohstory which directly contradicts that data or is not consistent with it should probably be considered to be pseudoscience as well. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 21:37, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
In general, subjects in the field of the humanities are not suitable for considerations as pseudoscience , and I have grave reservations against extending them even into the social sciences. . There may be some areas and topics in history that are essentially pure conspiracy theories and fringe, but in general we can deal with them without the need for the pseudoscience special treatment.
But one area of the humanities is totally inappropriate to be considered pseudoscience, ever, and that is religion. The nature of the evidence in this field sometimes does resemble convention historical thinking, but often does not. I personally have a very strong view that proving truth by personal revelation is never valid, and neither is proving truth by reference to the statements in sacred texts. People active in these areas from some traditions often feel the exact opposite, and it is not for WP to try to decide on this. Within the two religions I know, Judaism and Christianity, arguments about this question has been active on for thousands of years now, and is most unlikely to be settled --at least unless the traditionalists should somehow be correct, and the Last Judgment should intervene. What WP should never be doing is deciding on the status of religious questions. If there are multiple views, they must be presented, but the wording of an article should never imply that any one particular version is Correct. The 1907 Catholic Encyclopedia , of course, thought about this differently, and they had every right to. DGG ( talk ) 17:35, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.