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Isn't one of the points that is trying to be asserted with type sourcing is that the analysis we are seeking is authenticated analysis rather than uninformed opinion? I think this is the point of trying to recognise when an opinion is stated in a primary source (too close to the event, unchallenged, not peer reviewed) as opposed to secondary sources (supposedly validated).
However, it seems to me that, if that is the case, source typing by itself fails to resolve the issue, as we need to test whether the specific information being used has been validated. Again we come back to the issue of this being more about reliable sources. In a secondary source, the quote may be repeated in the secondary source and unless it is used in a secondary source to support an analysis, it may still be unusable, and only is usable if taken in context with the surrounding analysis.
So again, is source typing the solution, or do we look to define the issue of reliable sources more carefully. After all, source typing is really an issue of reliable sources, rather than originality.
Am I going down a rabbit hole here? Spenny 15:54, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
OK. So following that line, why are we worried about primary sources vs. secondary sources? Surely this is a test not of verifiability, but of making a judgement as to the quality of the information? The assumption is that primary sources do not contain analyses, but in fact they may well do - "I saw it, gov. He crashed because he was going too fast." It is not OR to repeat that analysis, but it is unwise for reasons of policy other than OR. I would have said using source typing in this way was one of the things that justified it being in policy - how to weigh uninformed opinion over verified analysis. Spenny 17:08, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
This discussion has gone around in this circle several times now. Neither "stick to the sources" nor "PSTS" adequately describes WP:NOR by itself. Both were seen to be needed from early in WP's development, and both are still needed. ... Kenosis 18:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Simultaneous with, or somewhat after, the otherwise reasonable move from PSS to PSTS, PSTS lost language clearly defining "primary sources" as non-interpretive sources, and editors like myself started understanding "primary sources" as "the sorts of things we call 'primary sources' elsewhere." I was never formally taught PSS, and picked it up from professors who may not have been formally taught PSS either... The idea that you can't draw interpretive conclusions from non-interpretive sources does make sense. But there are very few completely non-interpretive sources, and there are many interpretive sources which may be considered primary sources. Jacob Haller 22:07, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Well Spenny, the idea of distinguishing between primary sources and secondary sources seems to have worked well in academia for a very long time. I don't think there is any sort of problem with the distinction. Your claim that the distinction between primary sources, secondary sources and tertiary sources is not easily drawn for many people editing Wikipedia may well be correct, I don't know. But just because it cannot easily be explained does not therefore mean that we should dispense with it. Here's a list of web definitions for " primary sources", " secondary sources" and " tertiary sources" none are very different from the Wikipedia definition as far as I can tell. Alun 06:17, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
It is not about OR, it is about source typing being one element of the judgement call of whether a source is reliable for the purposes it is being used for. As has been said elsewhere, that is not the way the principle has been used by those who "know" policy. The simple challenge of "Primary source" is not in itself anywhere near sufficient to judge whether information is used appropriately or not. It's a warning sign, nothing more. Spenny 07:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Proposed addition to policy:
Recognized expertise trumps other claims
Recognized expertise trumps other claims. Examples:
WAS, you are being unfair to Shirahadasha, and this is the third time at least in the past week or so that you insist on creating false dischotomies as ways of polarizing the discussion in unconstructive ways. NPOV requires that we represent all notable views. NO Wikipedia policy ever allows one kind of view to "trump" another view. I agree that in an article on physics the views of physicists are most relevant - but if newspapers make it clear that there is a notable view not shared by physicists, the article has to include it. And it needs to identify the different views i.e. "Virtually all physicists agree that ... but among the general public two other views are widely held (use newspapers to support this)" in any event, this discussion does not even belong in NOR. You are pissed off at some other editors so you want to disrupt this discussion. Sorry, the issue you raise has to do with - I said this already - NPOV and RS, take the discussion there. But Wikipedia representas all notable views. The bulk of the theory on evolution explains how evolutionary scientists see evolution BUT the article itself acknowledges that non-evolutionary scientists have other views, and there views are summarized and linked to other articles. All notable views get expressed. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:07, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what this modification is intended to change. To my knowledge we still do not have an a priori ban on wikis, blogs, and other such things as reliable sources - merely a note that one has to be careful with them. What, exactly, is this intended to add? Phil Sandifer 16:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. While I don't disagree with it, it has nothing to do with OR (other than point #5). This would be a more appropriate addition to a policy like WP:UNDUE or WP:RS. OR is about the inclusion of new research by the editor. If research has been published prior to inclusion in Wikipedia, even in one source, it isn't original. COGDEN 18:41, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. Experts should be allowed to blog speculatively without everyone assuming every word they utter is fact. What we need is a mechanism to distinguish their serious, rigorous work - i.e. peer review. Hesperian 23:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Firstly please excuse my temerity at adding another strand here, but allow me to add to the above just this: not in my experience it doesn't, but it should, as and when verifiable. In that regard I still hold to my suggested solution to all these article problems, visible at discussion for Vatican Bank.Now, I haven't reappraised the WP guidelines on the above, which seemed eminently clear when I read them, but I wonder - as I am now again allowed to wonder- at what point does NOR displace 'Explanation' ( the WP/jimbo written concept thereof) on discussion pages? I imagine that both guidelines referred to the mainspace articles, not to discussion pages. It is simple to understand NOR within mainspace, and that it is undesirable, but having been 'busted' and punished for it, and since I never entered it into mainspace, I have to think that I was busted for 'explanation' and NOR on discussion pages. Any research I presented there was in any case verifiably attested and linked, and was provided in support of discussion necessities rather that with a view to altering mainspace articles to include it per se. It was presented by way of explaing why mainspace articles could not be properly edited, rather than for inclusion in any way, and generally in rebuttal of another editor's unsubstantiated claims. To keep it simple, can someone tell me if NOR also applies to discussion pages, and how, and how such application would not destroy the project if denying it hinders even discussion 'explanation', let alone article 'explanation'? ~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by EffK ( talk • contribs) 11:22, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Slrubenstein said:
I do not see how this becomes a journalism vs. scientific article issue. Both newspaper articles and peer-reviewed journal articles are secondary sources. I have seen many editors claim that newspaper articles are more notable than scientific/academic publications, I guess because they reach a wider audience. This is an important issue but belongs on another policy page discussion. We need to be clear that "notability" is not just between points of view (there are more journalists than anthropologists), the concept is important within a view (i.e. is this a notable view among journalists; is this a notable view among agronomists; is this a notable view among farmers). NPOV insists on notable views but what makes a view notable is not the number of people in absolute terms because a crucial point of view in a debate - say, the view of molecular geneticists in debates over evolution - may be a view shared by all molecular geneticists ... but there just may not be nearly as many molecular geneticists as, say, journalists. But this is something that needs to be addressed on the NPOV and RS pages, I think. It is not relevant to NOR. If someone claims it is, tell them they are wrong - but don't bring their misconcepts to this page. (unless of course it is - I have certainly seen many cases of people drawing on articles published in peer-reviewed academic journals who were yes violating NOR because they were taking data or even elements of arguments out of context and using them to forward their (the editors') own arguments .. is this what is happening at Factory Farming? I thought it was more a notability issue.) Slrubenstein | Talk 12:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, no policy can or should anticipate all situations to which it will be applied - some things need to be debated on talk pages. I am more concerned with how above, WAS seems to love false dichotomies. "newspapers are an unreliable source for science" he writes, and suggests as if it the only alternative, primary sources by scientists. No. The former (newspapers) is indeed an unreliable source on science. But the latter (primary sources) violates NOR. Does this mean we are screwed? Not at all. We use reliable secondary sources by scientists or about science. There is no problem with this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slrubenstein ( talk • contribs) 12:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Slrubenstein, defining a primary source as any source close to the object/claim means some people claim such sources are primary cuz the expert is close to the research/claim/object. SlimVirgin told me I did not understand OR after I told her that just because it comes from an expert does not make it a primary source. WAS 4.250 13:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
(<---) (edit conflict) Spenny's BSE example concerning a factory farming edit (war) can also be looked at as using a source that says factory farming is concentrated animal farming and another source that says industrial farming caused BSE and another source that used both factory farming and industrial farming in the same sentence (we say cuz one is a subset of the other, they say no that proves they are the same thing) to justify what I claim is the original research claim that factory farming (in an article that covers primarily concentrated animal farming) caused BSE. WAS 4.250 12:54, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
In the evolution and factory farming articles, I have not seen any true argument relating to OR. Nothing that anybody has argued in either article is original. It's all been said before. There may be issues of WP:V and WP:NPOV, but not OR. When arguments start cropping up that cite the OR policy page for disputes such as these, you know there is a problem with how the OR page describes the policy.
That said, I do agree with Spenny and others that some helpful guidelines relating to using primary and secondary sources might be helpful in the RS and NPOV realms. They just really have nothing to do with OR, and shoe-horning the primary-secondary distinction into OR is counterproductive. It's bad to go beyond any source with new material, be the source primary, secondary, or otherwise. No exceptions, no distinctions, no weakening of language. If you cite a fact, your source has to contain that fact. If you cite a conclusion or opinion, your source has to have that conclusion or opinion. It's a simple rule that even the simplest editors should be able to follow. COGDEN 23:35, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Taking into account the three evolutions of this proposed additon, and the various comments following each one, does this finally take into account each person's interpretation?
Wikipedia is not a primary source. Original research that creates primary sources is not allowed. Original research consisting of novel synthesis, or new interpretations, of reliable sources is not permitted. Conducting background research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing reliable and verifiable sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from reliable published sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, in presenting such information in a Wikipedia article, great care should be taken not to take the information contained in the sources out of context or present it in a manner that violates the provisions of this policy.
If this is the correct and final interpreation of the various comments above, do we have consensus to add this to the article? wbfergus Talk 14:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Agree
Oppose
Comments and questions
Finally, if this meets consensus, where should it be placed? At the beginning of the "Sources" section , before the "Reliable sources" sub-section, or someplace else? wbfergus Talk 14:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Here is a shortened version that will hopefully address some of the concerns above. Thoughts? Vassyana 16:17, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a source for original or novel claims and facts. While Wikipedia does not allow original research, it does encourage original prose (or paraphrasing of published reliable sources). However, great care should be taken to present the information in context and in a manner consistent with this policy.
{{
Editprotected}}Could some administrator include a (interwiki) link to Swedish Wikipedia article "Wikipedia:Ingen egen forskning". Add [[sv:Wikipedia:Ingen egen forskning]]
. Best regards,
Pierreback
20:28, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
This would never have occurred to me, but now that I've seen it happen, I understand how it could. The example that's used for explaining what constitutes inappropriate synthesis happens to be about plagiarism, which is a related concept to the subject of this page, original research. This has apparently caused someone to come to the conclusion that plagiarism is synthesis -- see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shadowrun timeline. Like I said, this isn't something that ever would have occurred to me as a potential problem, but since it's happened at least once, maybe we should find a different example that's very clearly unrelated to the actual topic of the policy. Pinball22 13:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
We've had quite a large amount of discussion about WP:PSTS. A lot of it has gone in circles and much of it is muddled and buried in endless debates. We need to focus on what we're centrally trying to achieve in such a section, or appropriate replacement. We can focus on how to address those points after we establish what we're trying to say. My previous comments help clarify my position and concern in this. [4] [5] [6] Let's focus on determining the ground rules of what we're trying to address here. Please address the following questions, without addressing questions of terminology, as briefly and succinctly as possible. I've split them into two groups, one primarily addressing sources themselves and the other addressing issues that have repeatedly come up in relation to the discussion. Thanks! Vassyana 17:01, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Discussion
Discussion
I am a 'liberal, strictly convinct that only dialectic facing will be cleared issues about the stuff published by Wiki and no policy can make orders about reliability only descerning about 'sources'. It's the capability to elaborate and mind onesty that make the difference.
Now to the issues: let me allow to show what i think with an example: i have many old sources, like old articles, old magazines, old enciclopedies (do not forget, wiki.en took off thanks an 1911 encyclopedia, so before spit over sources, be careful). Now, if i grab moden sources like magazines, internet sites, and so on i will seen bi-dimentional descriptions and opinions about this and that. Example, the stuff you can read about a modern aircraft is not seldom totally different to that you can find on old sources: today its' difficult to resume all the materials, the issues, the developement datas and so on.
But with an old article you can find a lot of them. Example, A-10 Thunderbolt, before Desert Storm were considered almost a failure of aircraft (too slow, without night capabilities etc.), after they were better evalued and today are one of the 'oustanding' aircrafts.
AMX, on the other hand at mid '80s were seen as 'the aircraft that will conquered the world'(eng Da Silva, 1985, said). After 20 years of marketing there is still no export success and that aircraft was often at the center of fiercely polemics.
So if you take a modern article (to not to talk about websites) i'll find just the last developements and few or nothing about 'the old, already well known history'. In fact, it's worthing to remember 'old history' to learn how that aircraft was seen, and why today it is consiedered well or bad (who remember also the fierce debate about the cost of M1 Abrams, M2 Bradley, B-1B and so on?).
Obviousely it is needed to understand that you cannot base articles only on 20 years old article, but integrate with modern stuff. The results are tridimentional, better, quadri-dimensional. It's the classical reason that worths to study history, to know how and why things are like we can see today.-- Stefanomencarelli 15:40, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I took the liberty of archiving the slightly older discussions to archive 25, the talk page was 325kb pre-archiving, it's now 177kb. Please restore any still relevant discussions as needed. Dreadstar † 17:10, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Could two spelling mistakes be corrected:
Secondary and tertiary sources should be used in a way that does not give rise to new analysies, syntheses or original conclusions that are not already present in the sources. In short, the policy of "No original research" requres that wikipedia users '''stick to the sources.'''
to:
Secondary and tertiary sources should be used in a way that does not give rise to new analyses, syntheses or original conclusions that are not already present in the sources. In short, the policy of "No original research" requires that wikipedia users '''stick to the sources.'''
Only small things really but it doesn't look very professional on such an important project page. -- Lo2u ( T • C) 20:00, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I think Wikipedia would benefit a lot from attenuating WP:SYN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.248.146.109 ( talk) 05:07, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
We need to decide what the focus of PSTS, or any replacement, will be set upon. Are we concerned about "raw facts" or "purely factual" sources? Are we concerned about sources close to the subject? Are we concerned about both? There seem to be two parallel trains of thought being expressed in regards to this.
I feel that PSTS, or any replacement since it will be built upon its legacy, needs to take into account the differing accounts of the P/S distinctions and their purpose as a framework for original research. We are trying to create unified definitions for a policy that discourages original research. This apparent dissonance to the original purpose of the terms/concepts and the variety of definitions needs to be consciously taken into account and addressed in the section.
We need to additionally bear in mind the context of the other policies, which put a strong preference on independent references that have solid editorial oversight. Ancient histories, diaries and similar sources are often considered "primary sources" and lack the editorial oversight that is expect of reliable sources. On the other hand, some typically "primary" sources (such as the U.S. census or EU economic statistics) are generally considered very reliable, but also "very raw".
Thoughts? Vassyana 23:42, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I'd like guidance on the use or misuse of direct quotes.
Currently, Criticisms of socialism directly quotes Mises' Socialism, where Mises makes a categorical statement about "all socialist ideas." I've disputed this section and discussed certain problems on the talk page. Basically, Mises uses his own definition of socialism for his critique and declares that most socialists aren't socialists, so it's not always clear what he's denouncing when he's denouncing socialism. Jacob Haller 22:12, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
{{ Original research}}
I'm quite honestly confused. If someone is inserting original research, or there are reasons to believe they are, the tag is perfectly appropriate. It doesn't change meaning based on the article, nor do I understand why you seem to present it in that light. Additionally, the article seems very clear in the that it is discussing "an antisemitic political epithet" that is also "the antisemitic conspiracy theory which blames the Jews for Bolshevism ...". I'm not at all sure what your concerns are. Vassyana 19:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Here's the problem:
Taking into account the comments above... I have slightly reworded the proposed text:
Per WP:NOT#OR, Wikipedia is not a primary source. Original research that creates primary sources is not allowed. Conducting background research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from reliable published sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, in presenting such information in a Wikipedia article, great care should be taken not to take the information contained in the sources out of context or present it in a manner that violates the provisions of this policy.
Thoughts? Blueboar 14:40, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
WP:SYN says that "A and B, therefore C" is unacceptable if not published by a reliable source. What if they leave the C up to the reader, so they synthesize information so a conclusion is obvious but don't state the conclusion? As an example (real cases would probably not involve something so uncontroversial and mundane), in an article about Weatherman Jim, someone creates a subsection "Criticisms of Weatherman Jim" and says something along the lines of "On 9/30/07, Jim said that the temperature was 30 degrees Celsius. The temperature was actually 35 degrees Celsius" and have that cited to temperature data, NOT an RS detailing Jim's speech and the actual data. Would this be a violation of WP:SYN? They have left off the conclusion "Jim is an unreliable source for temperature data" but it is an implicit in the way it is stated. - Jarn 03:34, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Here's my interpretation of SYN and its intent. Suppose source 1 says A, source 2 says B, and A+B probably imply C. If an editor states A and cites 1, and states B and cites 2, the editor may imply C but does not commit SYN. If an editor states C and cites 1+2 the editor commits SYN. Why do I draw the line there?
If any of these things happen, and an editor has merged the claims, other editors will find them harder to untangle; but if an editor has just set the claims alongside each other, other editors should have no trouble. Of course, NPOV may apply. Jacob Haller 18:53, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm simply going to say that I've always had a problem with this policy. The issue with Wikipedia and it's No OR policy is that things must be varified through text or otherwise it constitues as OR, however some things can't be verified through text, because sometimes what you're referencing is merely the absence of text or otherwise is a television show or a film where there is no text at all other then the creators info on it. I don't see this as a big concern, it's just a pain to edit the ariticles sometimes because of this policy and the surprisingly vague restrictions that are portrayed in it when talking about certain things like fictional media. -- VorangorTheDemon 13:17, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Based on the above discussion, I would like to propose changing the sentence:
to:
-- Dhaluza 13:03, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Let me try to put just a little structure on the types of sources dispute which I think should clear up most of the issues involved.
Most of my contributions have been on specific things; of late, for instance, I have been doing articles on lighthouses in the Chesapeake Bay. These last are very much standardized in their construction: a very brief opening sentence with a notability point if possible; an infobox with a picture (if available) and data about the light; and a short history. There is a standard set of sources I've used for the latter, and there are sometimes disagreements; since none of them are true primary source, however, it is simply a judgment call as to which is the most reliable in a given instance. However, for one datum I do have access to (essentially) primary sources: the location of the light. One of my history sources gives lat/long positions for extant lights; they are not, however, perfect, and in some cases I have found noticeable errors, including one descriptive error on the order of Krakatoa, East of Java. In general, where there is any existing structure I've been able to locate it using NOAA charts, Google Earth, and other aerial photography servers. One person might call this synthesis; another, fact-checking. I don't see how one can condemn it on anything but excessively dogmatic grounds.
I also monitor articles about alumni of my high school, because the fact of their attendance is often mentioned in their articles. I also police the school's website to keep its students from including each other prematurely. Thus have I have gotten involved in two disputes about the facts of these people's lives. In one case, there was a question as to whether the person was a "II" or a "Jr.". The erroneous source in this case was a remark (in my opinion flippant) from his son (also the subject of an article) which was easily citable-- but wrong. After much batting about, I finally resorted to looking in his high school yearbook (which is available on-line). In the second case, there was dispute as to whether a current TV celebrity was actually an alumna of the school. The erroneous source was a semi-interview piece in which the write identified the subject with a different school of the same name. This did not seem to be consistent to me, as the other school is located several hours from the subject's home town. So again, I went to the yearbooks, and I was able to find the subject and give a specific date for her graduation (as well as pinning down another perhaps not entirely accurate fact).
All this leads me to a simple three way division.
As far as possible, quoted material must be attributed to the original source. Failing that, a definitive, authoritative source should be used. Either must be preferred over secondary citations.
The reason for this is simple: what is important in this situation is accuracy of reporting above all else. Therefore, the primary source has precedence as a reference, with authoritative testifiers used only as necessary. More secondary sources are to be discouraged as potentially unreliable (even the NYT citations-checkers have off days).
Statements of more or less uninterpreted facts should be cited from as authoritative a source as possible.
As a rule, the notion of "primary source" doesn't obtain here. Maps are secondary sources for the locations of objects, for example; a primary source would be one's own visitation of the spot with a GPS unit or a theodite. The primary source for someone's given name would be his or her birth certificate. It is unlikely that we would ever be confronted with a true primary source datum, but if there is no other source, and the datum deserves reporting, and its interpretation is is uncontroversial, then it could be used.
What is most important is the avoidance of secondary, unauthoritative sources for factual data. They of rights should be getting their information from authoritative sources; we should use those same sources, and not rely on potentially incorrect reportage.
It is analysis that No Original Research is directed at. We do not want to present our own analyses of the the facts; rather we want to represent the consensus of the field.
At this point the notion of primary vs. secondary source gets complicated. Robert Massey's Nicholas and Alexandra is a secondary source when reporting about the facts of Nicholas II's reign as tsar, because he is repeating what primary or authorative sources say (and often choosing among them). The book is a primary source, though, for Massey's theory that the tsarevitch's hemophilia had a negative impact on the tsar's rule. In relating that theory, it is the preferred source, because description of that theory is a matter of fact. Acceptance of that theory, however, is analysis, and other secondary analyses and surveys must be appealed as sources for the theory's place within the state of the field.
In some cases what one would think are simple facts are caught up in analysis. For example, economic data are from time to time subject to controversy, because considerable interpretation is needed to produce a statistic. How great are Saudi Arabia's oil reserves? Well, this is not an easily derived number, and no doubt investigation would turn up some difference of opinion. In lieu of trying to evaluate the various values against each other, it is better to pick one authoritative, generally trusted source, unless there is clear evidence that there is an error or misrepresentation. However, that "clear evidence" obviously has to meet very high standards of reliability. A controversialist website is not a good enough authority on its own to overturn an official Saudi estimate of reserves; and if one turns to that website's sources (if it gives them), one is liable to present their analysis on one's own authority.
On the other hand, taking a "zero-tolerance" stance about trivial analysis is also original research. Most fields are subject to lingering disputes about minor items; raising the profile of such disputes by aggressively pursuing them here is in essence assertion of a peronal analysis that they are important.
This is of course my personal presentation, for which I haven't offered a single reference. However, I believe this represents standard practice in all fields and interprets our policies correctly-- that is, in a way that produces the most accurate encyclopedia. Mangoe 18:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
An annonymous edit has been inserting the following in WP:RS:
In some areas only secondary sources are viewed as reliable, since the primary sources are fragmentary, ambiguous, and/or contradictory. That is typical of historical topics; Wikipedia should hold no original research, which would be required to make use of such primary sources. However, in other areas primary sources may be preferred since no others can be authoritative, and other sources may be weak or scarce. That is normal in current technologies, which initially tend to not provide the kind of secondary sources which define historical narratives.
I've been following this discussion, and I've never noticed this passage being proposed here. Besides which, it isn't entirely true. Jacob Haller 21:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Can somebody take a look-see at: [10] and weigh in as to whether the disputed passage being mentioned actually constitutes OR? If this is the wrong forum to ask, please just point me to the right place, and thank you.-- Ramdrake 22:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I left and said I'd not be back. I see, though, that there still is not an agreement on source typing, that the proponents are unable to find wording that is satisfactory. If the proponents can't agree how on earth can it be part of an official policy? That the proponents don't agree shows that the concept is too vague (or flawed in some way) to be understood or expressed. Blueboar tried to redirect attention and focus but the discussion is back on what "primary" means, and that is still unclear. Whether I had made this comment or not the history of this talk page will be one that shows not only a lack of consensus on having source typing as part of the NOR policy but a lack of consensus on what "primary" really means - even among those who are for such typing. And even then all that the policy says is "be careful," but unless "be careless" is an implicit principle that's entirely superfluous - when is being careless ever proper when editing Wikipedia? ("Be careless" is not the same as "be bold.)
There's also a strong anti-wiki flavor to source typing: editors can't really be trusted to edit, they have to be told in meticulous (but unclear) language what to do. -- Minasbeede 23:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
That's up to you - as a non-participant/drive-by-poster I have scant authority to tell you what to do. Which I suspect is your attitude, which I think is the proper attitude, or close enough.
There is a standard Wikipedia concept to overcome such problems: consensus. The task before you is to reach consensus. Until you do I can flit in and point out that you haven't. What I do is hardly important: it's the lack of consensus on what you supposedly agree should be there that is the problem. Whether I point it out or not there isn't consensus, not even among those who favor some sort of source typing on what "source typing" means (within Wikipedia.) I doubt there's consensus on what "primary" means. The thing that lifts Wikipedia above Usenet ("above" seems to denote and is here meant to denote "better") is the consensus policy. If you don't have consensus what you have is hardly distinguishable from Usenet (by that I mean news group discussions within Usenet.) (That is not a compliment.) -- Minasbeede 00:59, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, agree. The problem is that 'consensus' is often seen as 'consensus among who is already in agreement'.--
Stefanomencarelli
15:42, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Often is not always (what a mess..)-- Stefanomencarelli 16:01, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Any opinions on adding "(sic)" to a quote? So far common sense seems to prevail, which is good; but is it original research to tell the reader what is wrong rather than presenting evidence and letting the reader decide? This relates to using "[]" to add or replace text in a quote. I think editorial discretion is called for in all good editing. NOR is not to be applied blindly making the edit-copy worse when no one is arguing that a representation is false. It is designed to be helpful in sorting out disputes. In other words, write it as accurately and truthfully as you can; but the minute there is a dispute, accurate sourcing takes precedence over "yeah but this is what is really true" What is "really" true takes precedence when no one is arguing that it is not true. Hence if everyone agree "not" was left out of a quote, then its ok to add "[not]" or "(sic)"; but the minute it is is an element of dispute, then it is not obviously true and we must fall back on verifiability and sticking to the sources and neutrality. Any opinions? WAS 4.250 14:18, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Several of the distinctions drawn above are too fine for me to attempt to undertand them. I just wonder if this International Herald Tribune article is in any way related to the primary/secondary source discussion. At first glance it seems to play down the value of secondary sources and of consensus among such sources. Lima 12:10, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
In the beginning, when original research is defined, a link to the Original research article should be given. Banaticus 10:49, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I propose to improve option 2, in accordance with my remarks above about option 2.
Perhaps something like this:
Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to go beyond the sources or use them in novel ways.
One useful way to ensure that a Wikipedia passage does not "go beyond" the sources is to consider the difference between what are often called primary and secondary sources. A primary source is a document or person with original factual data. Primary sources are usually close to the topic at hand, and present information that is not interpreted by a another party. A secondary source is a document or person that obtains the relevant information from primary sources and provides an interpretation. Secondary sources may repeat or comment on primary sources, but do not provide first-hand information. Factual information should be backed up by reliable references, which in general implies citing either primary or secondary sources. Reliable secondary sources should be used for an interpretative synthesis. Wikipedia is itself a tertiary source. See WP:Source Tutorial for some examples.
Wikipedia may never be the original source of information. Wikipedia may repeat and quote sources, but may not present undocumented information or theories concerning those sources. To the extent Wikipedia comments on a source or analyzes it, such commentary or analysis must not be original, and must be
verifiable. Conducting background research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from reliable published sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, in presenting such information in a Wikipedia article, great care should be taken not to take the information contained in the sources out of context or present it in a manner that violates the provisions of this policy.
Harald88 13:01, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
<undent> Perhaps I'm not seeing it, but "A primary source is a document or person with original factual data" doesn't seem to cover a primary source which is the subject or is close to the subject of the article or section. A poem or novel need have no factual data, but in an article about the author or the work it's a primary source. Similarly, writings about a literary movement by a prominent leader of the movement can be used as facts about the author, but not as a secondary independent analysis of the movement. ... dave souza, talk 21:31, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
The primary/secondary distinction here does not and cannot cover all the sources which I have used, in particular (1) ancient histories (2) political works in articles about their authors or their philosophies (3) religious works in articles about their authors and their philosophies. (1) the advice above hinges on whether these sources are primary or secondary (2) if we make the common-sense assumption that the latter two groups of sources are primary, then the guidance in the source-typing section is completely backwards. These latter two groups of sources are most reliable for what their author believed and least reliable for matters of fact. I am convinced that source-typing must be removed from the policy, or it will lead to the opposite of its intent. Jacob Haller 23:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
This is not bad, but I'd suggest a couple of changes:
COGDEN 18:25, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Sorry folks, but I am not getting any sense of what you are doing, or where are you trying to go with this. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:39, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I encourage Wikipedians who watch this page to comment about a new proposal at Wikipedia talk:Fringe theories#Appeal to particular attribution. Thanks ScienceApologist 17:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Live on Radio 2, Noddy Holder reviewed his own article and pointed out that he had never made a record with Anna Ford. This is clearly reported in the press - Anna has three references, but they are clearly all based on the same source. So Noddy Holder, a primary source, denies it, and you can listen again in the UK for the next week to verify this statement. However, we can go to another source, a database of the chart positions and find indeed there is no entry for this record. So we can verify by another primary source that the newspaper report is inaccurate. The newspapers are secondary sources, but clearly not reliable. And Stuart Maconie and Noddy Holder have just congratulated me for my efforts. Presumably, my edits should be removed as not desirable as they were based on setting primary sources against secondary sources. Discuss. Spenny 20:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Primary sources are documents or people very close to the situation being written about.. Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source. ...
An article or section of an article that relies on a primary source should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. Contributors drawing on primary sources should be careful to comply with both conditions.
<undent> It's certainly an interesting example of source based research pushing the boundaries of NOR. In a sense the section (which I've not checked out) is based on the secondary news reports, but in checking these reports against primary sources they're found to be unreliable and in error. It makes good sense to report what the various sources say without drawing conclusions, but as soon as we start drawing conclusions we're getting into the field of investigative journalism. Which is why it's preferable, though in my view not essential, to find a secondary source drawing that conclusion. Just out of interest I came across an interesting claim today and commented on it, [11] making it clear that we need a source other than the claimant before making too much of it. Whether the problem would be OR or RS is arguable, probably a combination of various policies. .. dave souza, talk 09:00, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Color me confused ... about exactly what Wikipedia is trying to achieve here.
Seems to me the distinctions should be straightforward, and not so radically different from what I learned in elementary school, high school, college, and the work world. At least in "hard" sciences and engineering, it's a Very Good Thing to use primary sources ... not to be discouraged (i.e. change that policy). If the author/editor of an article can't or won't do that, for whatever reason, then it's fair to report what "quality" secondary sources say, with enough context (citations etc) to highlight the fact that these are not facts from authoritative sources.
-- 69.226.208.120 01:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
"Primary sources" and "secondary sources" are commonly used, well defined terms in the humanities, especially historical scholarship. In sharp contrast, they are not used in the sciences (hard or soft), where the words "primary" and "secondary" have a huge range of uses, but almost never in combination with the word "source". Wikipedia is not a scientific enterprise, it belongs to the humanities, and the standard conventions of enclopedias should be used. Where some specific matter involves primary and secondary sources from a hard science, I suggest that you should do the right thing, use the appropriate source, and be aware that there is a cross-disciplinary terminology issue.
One issue that is not properly addressed in wikipedia policy, is that "reliable" is an adjective that applies to primary sources but not to secondary sources. A secondary source is only as reliable as the primary sources it contains. A better measure of quality of a secondary source is "reputability". Secondary sources make comment, analysis, criticism of something else tranformatative of primary source information. The interesting question is whether that comment/analysis/whatever is reputable. There is no sensible question of it being reliable. The comment/analysis is there, plain to see. -- SmokeyJoe 01:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I have been pondering on this issue for several days now. For the area that I do most of my contributions which are historical articles PSTS is clear, useful and a shield against charlatans both inside and outside the project. However on reading this talk page I asked myself the question what if there is an article on philosophy for which there are only published articles in journals, from the original paper through to the last published one. I chose philosophy as there need not be any data attached to the first publication of such a paper, (which can cloud the issue over primary sources,) and if there is any previous publication it tends to be yet another published article (" standing on the shoulders of giants" or " turtles all the way down")
In such cases the I can understand the problem people have with PSTS, but my answer is in that in such case all the reference papers for such an article can be treated as secondary sources, or secondary and tertiary sources (since once a Wikipedia article is written there is at least one tertiary source). I think that this policy document could be strengthened if a caveat is introduced into the PSTS section pointing out that in some disciplines such as philosophy and theoretical science, there may be a lack of what Wikipedia calls primary sources and in such cases editors should rely on what Wikipedia describe as secondary and respectable tertiary source when editing a Wikipeda article based on the papers of such an academic disciplines. -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Lately, a new line of logic has cropped up on WP:SPOILER. The guideline basically says that any section titled "Plot", "Plot summery", "Synopsis" or similar is assumed to contain spoilers and therefore needs no spoiler disclaimer. However, a small group of editors are now using the logic that because section titles are not " verifiable" through reliable source and are immune from said policy, they constitute original research and editors cannot makes assumptions on them (see WT:SPOILER#Removal of "spoilers implied by section title"). This has resulted in an edit war over that particular section of the WP:SPOILER guideline. -- Farix ( Talk) 15:50, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I have a question about conversion and WP:SYNTH. Suppose that source X says "John was a Jew when he married Tracy at age 25". Then source Y says "John converted to Christianity at age 37".
Using the above can we say "John converted from Judaism to Christianity at age 37"? Can we list John in List_of_notable_people_who_converted_to_Christianity#From_Judaism? Bless sins 20:06, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Here is another example. Suppose source X says "John was a Jew at age 17". Then source Y says "John was a Christian at age 37". But no source says both things at once.
Can this be used to put forth the position that John converted from Judaism?
Can this be used to put forth the position that John converted to Christianity?
Bless sins 01:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:When to cite says that "it is not necessary to cite a source in describing events or other details" when writing about the plot of a movie or book because "it should be obvious to potential readers that the subject of the article is the source of the information." What if, for example, a movie is adapted from a book and the book's story takes place during the 1950's and the movie takes place during the 1990's. Would it be ok to state in a "differences between the book and its film adaptation" section that the two don't take place during the same time period? Or would there need to be a source explictly mentioning that difference? Ospinad 17:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that in practice there can be no absolute (not relative) definition of a primary source, since the term "primary source" is used of accounts that are not those of eyewitnesses. Thucydides' history of the Peloponnesian War is considered a primary source for information on that war, though he was not an eyewitness of most of the events he describes and obviously drew on sources for what he wrote. His account is primary only in relation to accounts that are based on his.
In that case, Wikipedia rules on the use of sources should, I think, be exactly the same whether the sources are primary (in relation to one or more others) or secondary (in relation to one or more others).
The only distinction might be that the secondary character of a source should be noted whenever its primary source or sources can be consulted.
If these remarks are found irrelevant to the above discussion, please treat them as an aside. Perhaps indeed they have already been made in more appropriate form. Lima 04:44, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't mean to butt in to what is obviously a long and very detailed discussion, and I did read nearly the entire discussion, but... where is the consensus? The one thing I do like about Wikipedia is that a consensus among editors is like a steering column of a car, but in this entire discussion about sources what seems to be missing is any mention of consensus among sources. Just a thought. Metrax 06:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
The recent discussion about drafts 1-6 has been productive, in that new ideas have been introduced, and there have been some efforts to compromise. However, I don't think we can adopt any of these choices at this point as a whole. But maybe we can move forward incrementally. We don't have to explain the whole policy in one big bite. We can start with a general introduction, then add more detail as it finds consensus. From the discussion above, I'm pretty sure that at least the following language represents a consensus:
Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to "go beyond" what is expressed in the sources or use them in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source.
In short, the policy of "No original research" requires that Wikipedia users stick to the sources.This language has been included in all the proposals, and I don't see anybody disputing this language. If anyone finds any fault with it, let me know; otherwise, I'll plan to put it into the policy and we can concentrate on the next steps for adding incrementally more detail. COGDEN 21:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
(Outdent) This language is not terribly distinct from the current version, if a bit more clear. The currently policy reads ( here):
“ | Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to "go beyond" the sources or use them in novel ways. | ” |
I would recommend replacing it with:
“ | Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken to not "go beyond" what is expressed in the sources, use them in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source nor use the information out of context. In short, stick to the sources. | ” |
This is basically the same as COGDEN's language above, with an additional note about using information out of context and a shorter concluding statement. This is relatively simple change that seems to have a solid consensus. Thoughts? Vassyana 22:46, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Discussion has died down here a bit on this page. At some point, we need to unprotect the page and replace the presently-controversial PSTS section with some consensus language. Is everybody willing to suppress their natural inclination to revert while we start out with something clearly non-controversial that we can build on? If anybody is wholly unwilling to allow consensus language to emerge, I'd consider that to be an action against the best interests of Wikipedia, and if that's the case, perhaps the best way to remedy the situation would be to refer the matter to the arbitration committee. COGDEN 20:56, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
My observation is that there is a much broader and fundamentally stable consensus for the basic principle of PSTS than would be apparent merely by reviewing the recent discussions on the talk page. I would speculate that unprotection would serve to reveal this, given some time. But given that the "metapolicy" matter of protection of policy pages is not well discussed and not settled at this stage of the wiki's development, I have no preference about the protection issue. My own position on the substantive issue is as I said before, which is that whatever difficulties there may be with PSTS in arguing whether certain sources may be precisely fit into one of these categories (primary, secondary or tertiary), the basic distinction is key in much of the appllcation of WP:NOR throughout the wiki, and many thousands have come to rely on it. I honestly don't see an adequate warrant to be changing it at this stage. ... Kenosis 12:04, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Just a hypothetical here, since I still believe we can build consensus through negotiation. However, supposing we can't, that after these three months of discussion and eight-some-odd archive pages, there are still well-meaning editors who just can't bring themselves to work toward consensus and will always revert any moves we make in that direction, would it be appropriate to bring this issue before the Arbitration Committee? I don't know of any instance where it has resolved an issue like this, but there is no reason why it's not within their jurisdiction. We've tried negotiation, we've tried mediation, we've requested comments. Do you think the Arbcom would hear this issue, and is it worth a request? COGDEN 21:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Don't bother ArbCom. Insist that existing rules (in particular the rule that forbids those with a position to lock a page) be strictly observed. That would mean that those with a position could not slap a lock on a policy page whenever they saw a threat to some part of the policy they favor. The rule is clear: if they are partisans in a debate they are not to lock a page. Period. That should be particularly stringently enforced for policy pages as it is ludicrous for a group of editors to on the one hand insist that their pet wording be part of some policy (e.g., NOR) while they blatantly violate an even more important policy (showing their actual disregard for policy, other than as a tool to suit their agendas/desires.)
Review the Wikipedia pages about consensus (this is for personal edification) and notice how one example of improper behavior is for there to be continued opposition to a particular wording, with the opposition being expressed by a changing set of editors. Wikipedia recognizes that as prima facie evidence of an "ownership" problem or offense. Look over the history of the page (don't neglect to review the protection history) and decide, for yourself, if the history of WP:NOR is one that shows full active compliance with the rules and spirit of Wikipedia or if it shows offenses of the type already recognized and described in the policy-related pages.
I'm an outsider. I can watch Wikipedia self-destruct (or be destroyed from within) in a rather detached way. "Destroyed from within" has to mean "by administrators or some group of administrators." Editing, even bad or foolish editing, is not destructive of Wikipedia: Wikipedia is designed to prevent destruction from that direction - that's one if its primary strenths. Wikipedia is open to all to edit, Wikipedia explicitly advocates IAR, Wikipedia admonishes editors to "Be bold." The fundamental nature of Wikipedia is largely evident in and included in those three things. Those three things can be first neutered and then destroyed - the attempt is underway. -- Minasbeede 03:54, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Codgen: What did you have in mind that the arbitrators might be able to decide on? -- Fullstop 07:51, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I run into an interesting case recently ( Operation Wilno). This is a translation of a Polish historiography term operacja wileńska. The related event doesn't however seem to have an estabilished name in English historiography; the article was moved to Vilna offensive (as Vilna is more "politically correct" and the article describes a little more than just the Operation Wilno). A disambig at OW was created, but is now considered for deletion, with one of the main arguments being that the very term operation wilno is OR in English (even if it exists in Polish and is a disambig between 1919 and 1944 events). I wonder what's the stance on OR on such translations?
On a related note, I have run into an argument that WP:UE prefers that we translate names instead of using the original non-English title (that commonly comes up when I am writing articles on tiny Polish organizations that don't have an estabilished English name). Should they be translated into English but possibly invented names, or kept under non-English but certainly verifiable Polish names? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 13:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
The translation of Polish: operacja wileńska into English would be Operation Vilnius. So, we are not dealing with the unquestionable translation. Operation Wilno could have been used if the pushers of this name have demonstrated that it is indeed used with this obsolete English name for the city in this context. Not a single English language source is given with such name yet. While exotic and obsolete English names may be used if academic sources use them too, no evidence of the usage of Operation Wilno in English has been provided. -- Irpen 20:00, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
In general, the most reliable sources are books, journals, magazines, and mainstream newspapers; published by university presses or known publishing houses.
It looks to me like somewhere along the line someone shoe-horned in mainstream newspapers - that sentence does not run properly and confuses magazines in general with something which I think was meant to be far more specific: The Beano after all is from a known publishing house.
Although this is really the subject for reliable sources, as it is written here, it does not describe reliable sources. My only problem is how to fix, as I don't want another essay on RS and also we need to demonstrate context: the press as a reliable source for gossip and scandal but not for science. Spenny 19:54, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm writing a couple of proposals based on some of the recent discussion. The purpose here is not to "vote in" one version or the other. I just want to see which version is better, so that we can focus our efforts on achieving consensus. Keep in mind that these proposals are not perfect, and are just a starting point, not a final product. If you feel that both proposals are unacceptable, please don't say "neither". Instead, please create a "proposal 4" or a "proposal 5", etc., or suggest something calculated to move us toward consensus. This period of lack of consensus and flux has gone on far too long, and we need to start making positive proposals and positive efforts to move toward consensus.
Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to "go beyond" the sources or use them in novel ways.
Within Wikipedia articles we will find statements of fact and statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion. It is important to cite the right sources to back those different types of statements. Statements of fact should be cited to reliable sources that clearly demonstrate that fact. Statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion should be cited to reliable sources that contain the same interpretation, analysis or conclusion.
Editors cannot include their own interpretations of previously-published facts, unless that interpretation is either 1) an obvious and non-controversial consequence of the facts or 2) can be attributed to a reliable source. Nor can editors expand on an author's interpretations of fact, unless that expanded interpretation is also found in a reliable source.
Sources should be used in a way that does not give rise to new analyses, syntheses or original conclusions that are not already present in the sources. In short, the policy of "No original research" requires that Wikipedia users stick to the sources.
Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to "go beyond" the sources or use them in novel ways.
One useful way to ensure that a Wikipedia passage does not "go beyond" the sources is to consider the difference between what are often called primary and secondary sources. A primary source is a document or person with original information concerning the matter being written about. Primary sources are usually close to the matter at issue, and present information that is not filtered through a third-party. A secondary source is a document or person who obtains the relevant information from another source. Secondary sources may repeat or comment on primary sources, but do not provide first-hand information.
Wikipedia is not a primary source, and may never contain primary be the original source of information. Rather, Wikipedia is a secondary (or even
tertiary) source. Wikipedia may repeat and quote sources, but may not present undocumented information or theories concerning those sources. To the extent Wikipedia comments on a source or analyzes it, such commentary or analysis must not be original, and must be
verifiable. Conducting background research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from reliable published sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, in presenting such information in a Wikipedia article, great care should be taken not to take the information contained in the sources out of context or present it in a manner that violates the provisions of this policy.
Sources should be used in a way that does not give rise to new analyses, syntheses or original conclusions that are not already present in the sources. In short, the policy of "No original research" requires that Wikipedia users stick to the sources.
{nothing: the general OR policy is sufficient, and we need not make specific reference to sources}
Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to "go beyond" what is expressed in the sources or use them in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source.
Wikipedia articles include statements of fact, as well as statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion about these facts. Statements of fact should be cited to reliable sources that clearly demonstrate that fact. Statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion, including the notability of facts, should be cited to reliable sources that contain the same interpretation, analysis or conclusion. Editors must avoid including their own interpretations of facts.
In short, the policy of "No original research" requires that Wikipedia users stick to the sources.
In taking care to avoid "going beyond" the sources or using them in novel ways, sources can be considered in terms of three categories:
An article or section of an article that relies on a primary source should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. Contributors drawing on primary sources should be careful to comply with both conditions.
In some cases, such as peer-reviewed scientific papers, primary sources can provide the best and most accurate sources of fact. However, articles must be based on reliable third party sources, and care should be taken in considering the reliability of sources which have a close interest in the subject of the article.
Secondary and tertiary sources can provide both statements of fact, and statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion about the facts which are the subject of the article or section. They should be used in a way that does not give rise to new analyses, syntheses or original conclusions that are not already present in the sources.
Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to "go beyond" what is expressed in the sources or use them in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source.
Wikipedia articles include statements of fact, as well as statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion about these facts. Statements of fact should be cited to reliable sources that clearly demonstrate that fact. Statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion, including the notability of facts, should be cited to reliable sources that contain the same interpretation, analysis or conclusion. Editors must avoid including their own interpretations of facts.
In short, the policy of "No original research" requires that Wikipedia users stick to the sources.
In taking care to avoid "going beyond" the sources or using them in novel ways, sources can be considered in terms of three categories:
Contributors drawing on primary sources should be careful to comply with both conditions.
In some cases, such as peer-reviewed scientific papers, primary sources can provide the best and most accurate sources of fact. However, articles must be based on reliable third party sources, and care should be taken in considering the reliability of sources which have a close interest in the subject of the article.
Secondary and tertiary sources can provide both statements of fact, and statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion about the facts which are the subject of the article or section. They should be used in a way that does not give rise to new analyses, syntheses or original conclusions that are not already present in the sources.
Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to "go beyond" what is expressed in the sources or use them in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source.
Wikipedia articles include statements of fact, as well as statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion about these facts. Statements of fact should be cited to reliable sources that clearly demonstrate that fact. Statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion, including the notability of facts, should be cited to reliable sources that contain the same interpretation, analysis or conclusion. Editors must avoid including their own interpretations of facts.
In short, the policy of "No original research" requires that Wikipedia users stick to the sources.
In taking care to avoid "going beyond" the sources or using them in novel ways, sources can be considered in terms of two categories:
In some cases, such as peer-reviewed scientific papers, primary sources can provide the best and most accurate sources of fact. However, articles must be based on reliable sources, and care should be taken in considering the reliability of sources that have a personal interest in the subject of the article.
Secondary sources can provide statements of fact, as well as statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion about the facts which are the subject of the article or section. They should be used in a way that does not give rise to new analyses, syntheses or original conclusions that are not already present in the sources.
Please indicate which of the above proposals is better (or best), and a brief explanation why. Do not say "neither" unless you have a positive proposal to add, or something calculated to move us toward consensus. Marking up any of the above proposals is allowed. If you are okay with both, say that, so we know if there is a consensus to move in that direction.
"Wikipedia is not a primary source, and may never contain primary information." That is ambiguous as it can be read as, "we cannot copy information from a primary source and use it here." What it means to say is more like "Wikipedia is not a primary source, and may never be used to publish original, or primary, information." I wonder if that is the source of some of the confused debates in the past? Spenny 08:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Would a sensible other version be to combine the two: talk about facts, then note that there is a useful tool that can be used to help the thinking about sensible sourcing. Spenny 08:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I simply cannot contribute to wikipedia and follow these neverending, boring and depressive discussions, so sorry, but i'll post this intervent to make clear how many things are seen in a real wrong way:
I, again, have to say that Wikipedia policies cannot grant the reliability nor search about truth. This example above written:
Caesar's Gallic War is considered a pinnacle of ancient reporting. It however is also considered a fine example of propaganda writing and is known to contain numerous errors of hearsay. We cannot use it to support facts independently of reliable secondary sources without violating the basic principles of no original research and neutral point of view.
In other words, if you post something that is from secondary source it's OK, no thinking is need, on the contrary, activate own mind is forbidden. If you post something that is from primary source it must be discrimined from propaganda claims and facts.
Well, just tell me, Wikipedia searchs the truth only when primary sources are involved? So i can post every newspaper he said/she said and confutate or support every thing, even if it's Murdoch news talking about GWB? Hitler talking about Jews? Mussolini about fascism? No thanks, there's something really wrong with this discrimination. You cannot 'search the truth' only when a primary source is involved, forbid an analisis that MUST be used if you want 'discriminate' between propaganda claims and 'facts' (yes this involved brain activities) on every source, included that famous british racist encycl that almost started wikipedia.
In substance, Wiki forbids 'personal POV' and 'Original Research' but on the other hand, suggest 'analysis' on facts and claimings, but just from primary sources. This seems quite absurd to me. One wikipedian cannot seriously 'made' discriminations between facts and propaganda 'relativized' just to the kind of sources. And what about thertiary sources? Wikipedia.en, is true that boosted thanks to a 1911 british enciclopedy? And so why this 'disprace' for other enciclopedies (written by professionists, moreover)?
Botton line. I think, and i am not alone, that burocracy and tecnocracy, without clue of their limits, tends to de-humanize and worsening the society, treating humans as machines or 'problems'. The simple fact that Wikipedia cannot recognize that every enciclopedy written in the history has both 'OR' and 'NNPOV' and pretend to be 'different' with two zillions not-professional-and generally anonimous-workers is ,frankly speaking' laughable and out of reality.
Claiming the proibition of 'OR' with secondary sources and the 'syntesis' while at the same time is requested to discriminate on the type of sources (primary, sec, third, reliable, unreliable and so on...) is cleary an abstract construction, that gives only to wikilawyers the arrows to take out unliked statements, even if quite trivials.
Another thing, all this display also how the trust on wikipedians is really low because if not, it would be not necessary all this arrays of 'policies'. This bring also to much hipocrisy, because you cannot call for wikilove when you see the 'other' just a potential lyer and troll. And moreover, you can't say seriosly that my (or someone else) brain has no right to think while you asks for 'sintetize' with 'other words' available (and often in conflict) sources, re-writing and merging in a single article several book, magazine, newpapers articles.
Wikipedia calls for the 'use of brain' (for copyright), so it's laughable that then order to 'not express own opinions' during the process. Psicologically, biologically and logically it's simply impossible. And this will been until Wiki will be made directly by bot programs (if properly programmed).
All the words in this and other discussions means only that is pratically impossible to accept the only possible conclusion about OR and other stuff: if you run an opera like Wikipedia you cannot (even if this is the final dream for burocrats/tecnocrats) avoid lies, false statements and many other things, and the only way to improve Wikipedia is simply the partecipation and the discussion about this and that article. Let's let pruned by selection and logic the articles instead to fall in Maccartysm and hunt for witches and eretics. No to zealots, publicans and phariseis, but yes for a community capable to facing one each other work. -- Stefanomencarelli 21:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems that thus far, versions #1 and #5 are getting the most attention. I don't think anything in #1 is controversial, so I'm not commenting on that, but I wanted to address the controversial aspects of #5 and suggest some possible changes that would move us toward consensus and actually reflecting Wikipedia practice, should we choose to base a consensus draft on #5 rather than #1.
COGDEN 18:20, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Your Plato example is a good example of what's permissable. That is a descriptive claim. You are stating that Plato said "X", not supporting X by reference to Plato. Regarding your Frank example, the same holds true. Noting her observations as her own is one thing, citing facts based on them is a whole other ball of wax. Your suggested replacement text is a wide-open door to abuse of this policy, practically inviting original research. (I can further clarify this point if it does not follow to you.) "Third party", as used throughout policy, adheres to its normal definition of "independent", or a party not directly connected to the topic being discussed. It may be better for clarity to replace such uses with "independent" to make the meaning clear. Could you provide an example of a secondary source that simply regurgitates a primary source without generalization, analysis, synthesis, explanation or other accompanying claims? I agree on tertiary sources, as I've noted in the past. I think it is superfluous to what we are discussing here and even in academia the distinction between secondary and tertiary is very poorly defined (and openly noted as such). Vassyana 05:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I incorporated my comments above into a new compromise version #6, which hopefully should be less controversial than #5, and maybe more likely to lead to a consensus draft. COGDEN 18:06, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Hmm "Research that consists of collecting and organizing material" is rewriting a topic based on articles; in other words copycat researchers( the types who get banned at schools ); what i sometimes miss are original ideas who explain. Rather then claiming to be a publisher or having it from another source, it should be possible to explain to others in ones own words.
Probaply the "Math" and "Physiscs" parts could realy bennefit from such a policy, they are realy hard to read for normal people like me.
Peter-art
11:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
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Archive 20 | ← | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | Archive 28 | → | Archive 30 |
Isn't one of the points that is trying to be asserted with type sourcing is that the analysis we are seeking is authenticated analysis rather than uninformed opinion? I think this is the point of trying to recognise when an opinion is stated in a primary source (too close to the event, unchallenged, not peer reviewed) as opposed to secondary sources (supposedly validated).
However, it seems to me that, if that is the case, source typing by itself fails to resolve the issue, as we need to test whether the specific information being used has been validated. Again we come back to the issue of this being more about reliable sources. In a secondary source, the quote may be repeated in the secondary source and unless it is used in a secondary source to support an analysis, it may still be unusable, and only is usable if taken in context with the surrounding analysis.
So again, is source typing the solution, or do we look to define the issue of reliable sources more carefully. After all, source typing is really an issue of reliable sources, rather than originality.
Am I going down a rabbit hole here? Spenny 15:54, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
OK. So following that line, why are we worried about primary sources vs. secondary sources? Surely this is a test not of verifiability, but of making a judgement as to the quality of the information? The assumption is that primary sources do not contain analyses, but in fact they may well do - "I saw it, gov. He crashed because he was going too fast." It is not OR to repeat that analysis, but it is unwise for reasons of policy other than OR. I would have said using source typing in this way was one of the things that justified it being in policy - how to weigh uninformed opinion over verified analysis. Spenny 17:08, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
This discussion has gone around in this circle several times now. Neither "stick to the sources" nor "PSTS" adequately describes WP:NOR by itself. Both were seen to be needed from early in WP's development, and both are still needed. ... Kenosis 18:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Simultaneous with, or somewhat after, the otherwise reasonable move from PSS to PSTS, PSTS lost language clearly defining "primary sources" as non-interpretive sources, and editors like myself started understanding "primary sources" as "the sorts of things we call 'primary sources' elsewhere." I was never formally taught PSS, and picked it up from professors who may not have been formally taught PSS either... The idea that you can't draw interpretive conclusions from non-interpretive sources does make sense. But there are very few completely non-interpretive sources, and there are many interpretive sources which may be considered primary sources. Jacob Haller 22:07, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Well Spenny, the idea of distinguishing between primary sources and secondary sources seems to have worked well in academia for a very long time. I don't think there is any sort of problem with the distinction. Your claim that the distinction between primary sources, secondary sources and tertiary sources is not easily drawn for many people editing Wikipedia may well be correct, I don't know. But just because it cannot easily be explained does not therefore mean that we should dispense with it. Here's a list of web definitions for " primary sources", " secondary sources" and " tertiary sources" none are very different from the Wikipedia definition as far as I can tell. Alun 06:17, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
It is not about OR, it is about source typing being one element of the judgement call of whether a source is reliable for the purposes it is being used for. As has been said elsewhere, that is not the way the principle has been used by those who "know" policy. The simple challenge of "Primary source" is not in itself anywhere near sufficient to judge whether information is used appropriately or not. It's a warning sign, nothing more. Spenny 07:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Proposed addition to policy:
Recognized expertise trumps other claims
Recognized expertise trumps other claims. Examples:
WAS, you are being unfair to Shirahadasha, and this is the third time at least in the past week or so that you insist on creating false dischotomies as ways of polarizing the discussion in unconstructive ways. NPOV requires that we represent all notable views. NO Wikipedia policy ever allows one kind of view to "trump" another view. I agree that in an article on physics the views of physicists are most relevant - but if newspapers make it clear that there is a notable view not shared by physicists, the article has to include it. And it needs to identify the different views i.e. "Virtually all physicists agree that ... but among the general public two other views are widely held (use newspapers to support this)" in any event, this discussion does not even belong in NOR. You are pissed off at some other editors so you want to disrupt this discussion. Sorry, the issue you raise has to do with - I said this already - NPOV and RS, take the discussion there. But Wikipedia representas all notable views. The bulk of the theory on evolution explains how evolutionary scientists see evolution BUT the article itself acknowledges that non-evolutionary scientists have other views, and there views are summarized and linked to other articles. All notable views get expressed. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:07, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what this modification is intended to change. To my knowledge we still do not have an a priori ban on wikis, blogs, and other such things as reliable sources - merely a note that one has to be careful with them. What, exactly, is this intended to add? Phil Sandifer 16:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. While I don't disagree with it, it has nothing to do with OR (other than point #5). This would be a more appropriate addition to a policy like WP:UNDUE or WP:RS. OR is about the inclusion of new research by the editor. If research has been published prior to inclusion in Wikipedia, even in one source, it isn't original. COGDEN 18:41, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. Experts should be allowed to blog speculatively without everyone assuming every word they utter is fact. What we need is a mechanism to distinguish their serious, rigorous work - i.e. peer review. Hesperian 23:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Firstly please excuse my temerity at adding another strand here, but allow me to add to the above just this: not in my experience it doesn't, but it should, as and when verifiable. In that regard I still hold to my suggested solution to all these article problems, visible at discussion for Vatican Bank.Now, I haven't reappraised the WP guidelines on the above, which seemed eminently clear when I read them, but I wonder - as I am now again allowed to wonder- at what point does NOR displace 'Explanation' ( the WP/jimbo written concept thereof) on discussion pages? I imagine that both guidelines referred to the mainspace articles, not to discussion pages. It is simple to understand NOR within mainspace, and that it is undesirable, but having been 'busted' and punished for it, and since I never entered it into mainspace, I have to think that I was busted for 'explanation' and NOR on discussion pages. Any research I presented there was in any case verifiably attested and linked, and was provided in support of discussion necessities rather that with a view to altering mainspace articles to include it per se. It was presented by way of explaing why mainspace articles could not be properly edited, rather than for inclusion in any way, and generally in rebuttal of another editor's unsubstantiated claims. To keep it simple, can someone tell me if NOR also applies to discussion pages, and how, and how such application would not destroy the project if denying it hinders even discussion 'explanation', let alone article 'explanation'? ~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by EffK ( talk • contribs) 11:22, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Slrubenstein said:
I do not see how this becomes a journalism vs. scientific article issue. Both newspaper articles and peer-reviewed journal articles are secondary sources. I have seen many editors claim that newspaper articles are more notable than scientific/academic publications, I guess because they reach a wider audience. This is an important issue but belongs on another policy page discussion. We need to be clear that "notability" is not just between points of view (there are more journalists than anthropologists), the concept is important within a view (i.e. is this a notable view among journalists; is this a notable view among agronomists; is this a notable view among farmers). NPOV insists on notable views but what makes a view notable is not the number of people in absolute terms because a crucial point of view in a debate - say, the view of molecular geneticists in debates over evolution - may be a view shared by all molecular geneticists ... but there just may not be nearly as many molecular geneticists as, say, journalists. But this is something that needs to be addressed on the NPOV and RS pages, I think. It is not relevant to NOR. If someone claims it is, tell them they are wrong - but don't bring their misconcepts to this page. (unless of course it is - I have certainly seen many cases of people drawing on articles published in peer-reviewed academic journals who were yes violating NOR because they were taking data or even elements of arguments out of context and using them to forward their (the editors') own arguments .. is this what is happening at Factory Farming? I thought it was more a notability issue.) Slrubenstein | Talk 12:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, no policy can or should anticipate all situations to which it will be applied - some things need to be debated on talk pages. I am more concerned with how above, WAS seems to love false dichotomies. "newspapers are an unreliable source for science" he writes, and suggests as if it the only alternative, primary sources by scientists. No. The former (newspapers) is indeed an unreliable source on science. But the latter (primary sources) violates NOR. Does this mean we are screwed? Not at all. We use reliable secondary sources by scientists or about science. There is no problem with this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slrubenstein ( talk • contribs) 12:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Slrubenstein, defining a primary source as any source close to the object/claim means some people claim such sources are primary cuz the expert is close to the research/claim/object. SlimVirgin told me I did not understand OR after I told her that just because it comes from an expert does not make it a primary source. WAS 4.250 13:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
(<---) (edit conflict) Spenny's BSE example concerning a factory farming edit (war) can also be looked at as using a source that says factory farming is concentrated animal farming and another source that says industrial farming caused BSE and another source that used both factory farming and industrial farming in the same sentence (we say cuz one is a subset of the other, they say no that proves they are the same thing) to justify what I claim is the original research claim that factory farming (in an article that covers primarily concentrated animal farming) caused BSE. WAS 4.250 12:54, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
In the evolution and factory farming articles, I have not seen any true argument relating to OR. Nothing that anybody has argued in either article is original. It's all been said before. There may be issues of WP:V and WP:NPOV, but not OR. When arguments start cropping up that cite the OR policy page for disputes such as these, you know there is a problem with how the OR page describes the policy.
That said, I do agree with Spenny and others that some helpful guidelines relating to using primary and secondary sources might be helpful in the RS and NPOV realms. They just really have nothing to do with OR, and shoe-horning the primary-secondary distinction into OR is counterproductive. It's bad to go beyond any source with new material, be the source primary, secondary, or otherwise. No exceptions, no distinctions, no weakening of language. If you cite a fact, your source has to contain that fact. If you cite a conclusion or opinion, your source has to have that conclusion or opinion. It's a simple rule that even the simplest editors should be able to follow. COGDEN 23:35, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Taking into account the three evolutions of this proposed additon, and the various comments following each one, does this finally take into account each person's interpretation?
Wikipedia is not a primary source. Original research that creates primary sources is not allowed. Original research consisting of novel synthesis, or new interpretations, of reliable sources is not permitted. Conducting background research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing reliable and verifiable sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from reliable published sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, in presenting such information in a Wikipedia article, great care should be taken not to take the information contained in the sources out of context or present it in a manner that violates the provisions of this policy.
If this is the correct and final interpreation of the various comments above, do we have consensus to add this to the article? wbfergus Talk 14:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Agree
Oppose
Comments and questions
Finally, if this meets consensus, where should it be placed? At the beginning of the "Sources" section , before the "Reliable sources" sub-section, or someplace else? wbfergus Talk 14:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Here is a shortened version that will hopefully address some of the concerns above. Thoughts? Vassyana 16:17, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a source for original or novel claims and facts. While Wikipedia does not allow original research, it does encourage original prose (or paraphrasing of published reliable sources). However, great care should be taken to present the information in context and in a manner consistent with this policy.
{{
Editprotected}}Could some administrator include a (interwiki) link to Swedish Wikipedia article "Wikipedia:Ingen egen forskning". Add [[sv:Wikipedia:Ingen egen forskning]]
. Best regards,
Pierreback
20:28, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
This would never have occurred to me, but now that I've seen it happen, I understand how it could. The example that's used for explaining what constitutes inappropriate synthesis happens to be about plagiarism, which is a related concept to the subject of this page, original research. This has apparently caused someone to come to the conclusion that plagiarism is synthesis -- see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shadowrun timeline. Like I said, this isn't something that ever would have occurred to me as a potential problem, but since it's happened at least once, maybe we should find a different example that's very clearly unrelated to the actual topic of the policy. Pinball22 13:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
We've had quite a large amount of discussion about WP:PSTS. A lot of it has gone in circles and much of it is muddled and buried in endless debates. We need to focus on what we're centrally trying to achieve in such a section, or appropriate replacement. We can focus on how to address those points after we establish what we're trying to say. My previous comments help clarify my position and concern in this. [4] [5] [6] Let's focus on determining the ground rules of what we're trying to address here. Please address the following questions, without addressing questions of terminology, as briefly and succinctly as possible. I've split them into two groups, one primarily addressing sources themselves and the other addressing issues that have repeatedly come up in relation to the discussion. Thanks! Vassyana 17:01, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Discussion
Discussion
I am a 'liberal, strictly convinct that only dialectic facing will be cleared issues about the stuff published by Wiki and no policy can make orders about reliability only descerning about 'sources'. It's the capability to elaborate and mind onesty that make the difference.
Now to the issues: let me allow to show what i think with an example: i have many old sources, like old articles, old magazines, old enciclopedies (do not forget, wiki.en took off thanks an 1911 encyclopedia, so before spit over sources, be careful). Now, if i grab moden sources like magazines, internet sites, and so on i will seen bi-dimentional descriptions and opinions about this and that. Example, the stuff you can read about a modern aircraft is not seldom totally different to that you can find on old sources: today its' difficult to resume all the materials, the issues, the developement datas and so on.
But with an old article you can find a lot of them. Example, A-10 Thunderbolt, before Desert Storm were considered almost a failure of aircraft (too slow, without night capabilities etc.), after they were better evalued and today are one of the 'oustanding' aircrafts.
AMX, on the other hand at mid '80s were seen as 'the aircraft that will conquered the world'(eng Da Silva, 1985, said). After 20 years of marketing there is still no export success and that aircraft was often at the center of fiercely polemics.
So if you take a modern article (to not to talk about websites) i'll find just the last developements and few or nothing about 'the old, already well known history'. In fact, it's worthing to remember 'old history' to learn how that aircraft was seen, and why today it is consiedered well or bad (who remember also the fierce debate about the cost of M1 Abrams, M2 Bradley, B-1B and so on?).
Obviousely it is needed to understand that you cannot base articles only on 20 years old article, but integrate with modern stuff. The results are tridimentional, better, quadri-dimensional. It's the classical reason that worths to study history, to know how and why things are like we can see today.-- Stefanomencarelli 15:40, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I took the liberty of archiving the slightly older discussions to archive 25, the talk page was 325kb pre-archiving, it's now 177kb. Please restore any still relevant discussions as needed. Dreadstar † 17:10, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Could two spelling mistakes be corrected:
Secondary and tertiary sources should be used in a way that does not give rise to new analysies, syntheses or original conclusions that are not already present in the sources. In short, the policy of "No original research" requres that wikipedia users '''stick to the sources.'''
to:
Secondary and tertiary sources should be used in a way that does not give rise to new analyses, syntheses or original conclusions that are not already present in the sources. In short, the policy of "No original research" requires that wikipedia users '''stick to the sources.'''
Only small things really but it doesn't look very professional on such an important project page. -- Lo2u ( T • C) 20:00, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I think Wikipedia would benefit a lot from attenuating WP:SYN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.248.146.109 ( talk) 05:07, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
We need to decide what the focus of PSTS, or any replacement, will be set upon. Are we concerned about "raw facts" or "purely factual" sources? Are we concerned about sources close to the subject? Are we concerned about both? There seem to be two parallel trains of thought being expressed in regards to this.
I feel that PSTS, or any replacement since it will be built upon its legacy, needs to take into account the differing accounts of the P/S distinctions and their purpose as a framework for original research. We are trying to create unified definitions for a policy that discourages original research. This apparent dissonance to the original purpose of the terms/concepts and the variety of definitions needs to be consciously taken into account and addressed in the section.
We need to additionally bear in mind the context of the other policies, which put a strong preference on independent references that have solid editorial oversight. Ancient histories, diaries and similar sources are often considered "primary sources" and lack the editorial oversight that is expect of reliable sources. On the other hand, some typically "primary" sources (such as the U.S. census or EU economic statistics) are generally considered very reliable, but also "very raw".
Thoughts? Vassyana 23:42, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I'd like guidance on the use or misuse of direct quotes.
Currently, Criticisms of socialism directly quotes Mises' Socialism, where Mises makes a categorical statement about "all socialist ideas." I've disputed this section and discussed certain problems on the talk page. Basically, Mises uses his own definition of socialism for his critique and declares that most socialists aren't socialists, so it's not always clear what he's denouncing when he's denouncing socialism. Jacob Haller 22:12, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
{{ Original research}}
I'm quite honestly confused. If someone is inserting original research, or there are reasons to believe they are, the tag is perfectly appropriate. It doesn't change meaning based on the article, nor do I understand why you seem to present it in that light. Additionally, the article seems very clear in the that it is discussing "an antisemitic political epithet" that is also "the antisemitic conspiracy theory which blames the Jews for Bolshevism ...". I'm not at all sure what your concerns are. Vassyana 19:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Here's the problem:
Taking into account the comments above... I have slightly reworded the proposed text:
Per WP:NOT#OR, Wikipedia is not a primary source. Original research that creates primary sources is not allowed. Conducting background research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from reliable published sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, in presenting such information in a Wikipedia article, great care should be taken not to take the information contained in the sources out of context or present it in a manner that violates the provisions of this policy.
Thoughts? Blueboar 14:40, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
WP:SYN says that "A and B, therefore C" is unacceptable if not published by a reliable source. What if they leave the C up to the reader, so they synthesize information so a conclusion is obvious but don't state the conclusion? As an example (real cases would probably not involve something so uncontroversial and mundane), in an article about Weatherman Jim, someone creates a subsection "Criticisms of Weatherman Jim" and says something along the lines of "On 9/30/07, Jim said that the temperature was 30 degrees Celsius. The temperature was actually 35 degrees Celsius" and have that cited to temperature data, NOT an RS detailing Jim's speech and the actual data. Would this be a violation of WP:SYN? They have left off the conclusion "Jim is an unreliable source for temperature data" but it is an implicit in the way it is stated. - Jarn 03:34, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Here's my interpretation of SYN and its intent. Suppose source 1 says A, source 2 says B, and A+B probably imply C. If an editor states A and cites 1, and states B and cites 2, the editor may imply C but does not commit SYN. If an editor states C and cites 1+2 the editor commits SYN. Why do I draw the line there?
If any of these things happen, and an editor has merged the claims, other editors will find them harder to untangle; but if an editor has just set the claims alongside each other, other editors should have no trouble. Of course, NPOV may apply. Jacob Haller 18:53, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm simply going to say that I've always had a problem with this policy. The issue with Wikipedia and it's No OR policy is that things must be varified through text or otherwise it constitues as OR, however some things can't be verified through text, because sometimes what you're referencing is merely the absence of text or otherwise is a television show or a film where there is no text at all other then the creators info on it. I don't see this as a big concern, it's just a pain to edit the ariticles sometimes because of this policy and the surprisingly vague restrictions that are portrayed in it when talking about certain things like fictional media. -- VorangorTheDemon 13:17, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Based on the above discussion, I would like to propose changing the sentence:
to:
-- Dhaluza 13:03, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Let me try to put just a little structure on the types of sources dispute which I think should clear up most of the issues involved.
Most of my contributions have been on specific things; of late, for instance, I have been doing articles on lighthouses in the Chesapeake Bay. These last are very much standardized in their construction: a very brief opening sentence with a notability point if possible; an infobox with a picture (if available) and data about the light; and a short history. There is a standard set of sources I've used for the latter, and there are sometimes disagreements; since none of them are true primary source, however, it is simply a judgment call as to which is the most reliable in a given instance. However, for one datum I do have access to (essentially) primary sources: the location of the light. One of my history sources gives lat/long positions for extant lights; they are not, however, perfect, and in some cases I have found noticeable errors, including one descriptive error on the order of Krakatoa, East of Java. In general, where there is any existing structure I've been able to locate it using NOAA charts, Google Earth, and other aerial photography servers. One person might call this synthesis; another, fact-checking. I don't see how one can condemn it on anything but excessively dogmatic grounds.
I also monitor articles about alumni of my high school, because the fact of their attendance is often mentioned in their articles. I also police the school's website to keep its students from including each other prematurely. Thus have I have gotten involved in two disputes about the facts of these people's lives. In one case, there was a question as to whether the person was a "II" or a "Jr.". The erroneous source in this case was a remark (in my opinion flippant) from his son (also the subject of an article) which was easily citable-- but wrong. After much batting about, I finally resorted to looking in his high school yearbook (which is available on-line). In the second case, there was dispute as to whether a current TV celebrity was actually an alumna of the school. The erroneous source was a semi-interview piece in which the write identified the subject with a different school of the same name. This did not seem to be consistent to me, as the other school is located several hours from the subject's home town. So again, I went to the yearbooks, and I was able to find the subject and give a specific date for her graduation (as well as pinning down another perhaps not entirely accurate fact).
All this leads me to a simple three way division.
As far as possible, quoted material must be attributed to the original source. Failing that, a definitive, authoritative source should be used. Either must be preferred over secondary citations.
The reason for this is simple: what is important in this situation is accuracy of reporting above all else. Therefore, the primary source has precedence as a reference, with authoritative testifiers used only as necessary. More secondary sources are to be discouraged as potentially unreliable (even the NYT citations-checkers have off days).
Statements of more or less uninterpreted facts should be cited from as authoritative a source as possible.
As a rule, the notion of "primary source" doesn't obtain here. Maps are secondary sources for the locations of objects, for example; a primary source would be one's own visitation of the spot with a GPS unit or a theodite. The primary source for someone's given name would be his or her birth certificate. It is unlikely that we would ever be confronted with a true primary source datum, but if there is no other source, and the datum deserves reporting, and its interpretation is is uncontroversial, then it could be used.
What is most important is the avoidance of secondary, unauthoritative sources for factual data. They of rights should be getting their information from authoritative sources; we should use those same sources, and not rely on potentially incorrect reportage.
It is analysis that No Original Research is directed at. We do not want to present our own analyses of the the facts; rather we want to represent the consensus of the field.
At this point the notion of primary vs. secondary source gets complicated. Robert Massey's Nicholas and Alexandra is a secondary source when reporting about the facts of Nicholas II's reign as tsar, because he is repeating what primary or authorative sources say (and often choosing among them). The book is a primary source, though, for Massey's theory that the tsarevitch's hemophilia had a negative impact on the tsar's rule. In relating that theory, it is the preferred source, because description of that theory is a matter of fact. Acceptance of that theory, however, is analysis, and other secondary analyses and surveys must be appealed as sources for the theory's place within the state of the field.
In some cases what one would think are simple facts are caught up in analysis. For example, economic data are from time to time subject to controversy, because considerable interpretation is needed to produce a statistic. How great are Saudi Arabia's oil reserves? Well, this is not an easily derived number, and no doubt investigation would turn up some difference of opinion. In lieu of trying to evaluate the various values against each other, it is better to pick one authoritative, generally trusted source, unless there is clear evidence that there is an error or misrepresentation. However, that "clear evidence" obviously has to meet very high standards of reliability. A controversialist website is not a good enough authority on its own to overturn an official Saudi estimate of reserves; and if one turns to that website's sources (if it gives them), one is liable to present their analysis on one's own authority.
On the other hand, taking a "zero-tolerance" stance about trivial analysis is also original research. Most fields are subject to lingering disputes about minor items; raising the profile of such disputes by aggressively pursuing them here is in essence assertion of a peronal analysis that they are important.
This is of course my personal presentation, for which I haven't offered a single reference. However, I believe this represents standard practice in all fields and interprets our policies correctly-- that is, in a way that produces the most accurate encyclopedia. Mangoe 18:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
An annonymous edit has been inserting the following in WP:RS:
In some areas only secondary sources are viewed as reliable, since the primary sources are fragmentary, ambiguous, and/or contradictory. That is typical of historical topics; Wikipedia should hold no original research, which would be required to make use of such primary sources. However, in other areas primary sources may be preferred since no others can be authoritative, and other sources may be weak or scarce. That is normal in current technologies, which initially tend to not provide the kind of secondary sources which define historical narratives.
I've been following this discussion, and I've never noticed this passage being proposed here. Besides which, it isn't entirely true. Jacob Haller 21:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Can somebody take a look-see at: [10] and weigh in as to whether the disputed passage being mentioned actually constitutes OR? If this is the wrong forum to ask, please just point me to the right place, and thank you.-- Ramdrake 22:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I left and said I'd not be back. I see, though, that there still is not an agreement on source typing, that the proponents are unable to find wording that is satisfactory. If the proponents can't agree how on earth can it be part of an official policy? That the proponents don't agree shows that the concept is too vague (or flawed in some way) to be understood or expressed. Blueboar tried to redirect attention and focus but the discussion is back on what "primary" means, and that is still unclear. Whether I had made this comment or not the history of this talk page will be one that shows not only a lack of consensus on having source typing as part of the NOR policy but a lack of consensus on what "primary" really means - even among those who are for such typing. And even then all that the policy says is "be careful," but unless "be careless" is an implicit principle that's entirely superfluous - when is being careless ever proper when editing Wikipedia? ("Be careless" is not the same as "be bold.)
There's also a strong anti-wiki flavor to source typing: editors can't really be trusted to edit, they have to be told in meticulous (but unclear) language what to do. -- Minasbeede 23:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
That's up to you - as a non-participant/drive-by-poster I have scant authority to tell you what to do. Which I suspect is your attitude, which I think is the proper attitude, or close enough.
There is a standard Wikipedia concept to overcome such problems: consensus. The task before you is to reach consensus. Until you do I can flit in and point out that you haven't. What I do is hardly important: it's the lack of consensus on what you supposedly agree should be there that is the problem. Whether I point it out or not there isn't consensus, not even among those who favor some sort of source typing on what "source typing" means (within Wikipedia.) I doubt there's consensus on what "primary" means. The thing that lifts Wikipedia above Usenet ("above" seems to denote and is here meant to denote "better") is the consensus policy. If you don't have consensus what you have is hardly distinguishable from Usenet (by that I mean news group discussions within Usenet.) (That is not a compliment.) -- Minasbeede 00:59, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, agree. The problem is that 'consensus' is often seen as 'consensus among who is already in agreement'.--
Stefanomencarelli
15:42, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Often is not always (what a mess..)-- Stefanomencarelli 16:01, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Any opinions on adding "(sic)" to a quote? So far common sense seems to prevail, which is good; but is it original research to tell the reader what is wrong rather than presenting evidence and letting the reader decide? This relates to using "[]" to add or replace text in a quote. I think editorial discretion is called for in all good editing. NOR is not to be applied blindly making the edit-copy worse when no one is arguing that a representation is false. It is designed to be helpful in sorting out disputes. In other words, write it as accurately and truthfully as you can; but the minute there is a dispute, accurate sourcing takes precedence over "yeah but this is what is really true" What is "really" true takes precedence when no one is arguing that it is not true. Hence if everyone agree "not" was left out of a quote, then its ok to add "[not]" or "(sic)"; but the minute it is is an element of dispute, then it is not obviously true and we must fall back on verifiability and sticking to the sources and neutrality. Any opinions? WAS 4.250 14:18, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Several of the distinctions drawn above are too fine for me to attempt to undertand them. I just wonder if this International Herald Tribune article is in any way related to the primary/secondary source discussion. At first glance it seems to play down the value of secondary sources and of consensus among such sources. Lima 12:10, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
In the beginning, when original research is defined, a link to the Original research article should be given. Banaticus 10:49, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I propose to improve option 2, in accordance with my remarks above about option 2.
Perhaps something like this:
Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to go beyond the sources or use them in novel ways.
One useful way to ensure that a Wikipedia passage does not "go beyond" the sources is to consider the difference between what are often called primary and secondary sources. A primary source is a document or person with original factual data. Primary sources are usually close to the topic at hand, and present information that is not interpreted by a another party. A secondary source is a document or person that obtains the relevant information from primary sources and provides an interpretation. Secondary sources may repeat or comment on primary sources, but do not provide first-hand information. Factual information should be backed up by reliable references, which in general implies citing either primary or secondary sources. Reliable secondary sources should be used for an interpretative synthesis. Wikipedia is itself a tertiary source. See WP:Source Tutorial for some examples.
Wikipedia may never be the original source of information. Wikipedia may repeat and quote sources, but may not present undocumented information or theories concerning those sources. To the extent Wikipedia comments on a source or analyzes it, such commentary or analysis must not be original, and must be
verifiable. Conducting background research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from reliable published sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, in presenting such information in a Wikipedia article, great care should be taken not to take the information contained in the sources out of context or present it in a manner that violates the provisions of this policy.
Harald88 13:01, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
<undent> Perhaps I'm not seeing it, but "A primary source is a document or person with original factual data" doesn't seem to cover a primary source which is the subject or is close to the subject of the article or section. A poem or novel need have no factual data, but in an article about the author or the work it's a primary source. Similarly, writings about a literary movement by a prominent leader of the movement can be used as facts about the author, but not as a secondary independent analysis of the movement. ... dave souza, talk 21:31, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
The primary/secondary distinction here does not and cannot cover all the sources which I have used, in particular (1) ancient histories (2) political works in articles about their authors or their philosophies (3) religious works in articles about their authors and their philosophies. (1) the advice above hinges on whether these sources are primary or secondary (2) if we make the common-sense assumption that the latter two groups of sources are primary, then the guidance in the source-typing section is completely backwards. These latter two groups of sources are most reliable for what their author believed and least reliable for matters of fact. I am convinced that source-typing must be removed from the policy, or it will lead to the opposite of its intent. Jacob Haller 23:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
This is not bad, but I'd suggest a couple of changes:
COGDEN 18:25, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Sorry folks, but I am not getting any sense of what you are doing, or where are you trying to go with this. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:39, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I encourage Wikipedians who watch this page to comment about a new proposal at Wikipedia talk:Fringe theories#Appeal to particular attribution. Thanks ScienceApologist 17:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Live on Radio 2, Noddy Holder reviewed his own article and pointed out that he had never made a record with Anna Ford. This is clearly reported in the press - Anna has three references, but they are clearly all based on the same source. So Noddy Holder, a primary source, denies it, and you can listen again in the UK for the next week to verify this statement. However, we can go to another source, a database of the chart positions and find indeed there is no entry for this record. So we can verify by another primary source that the newspaper report is inaccurate. The newspapers are secondary sources, but clearly not reliable. And Stuart Maconie and Noddy Holder have just congratulated me for my efforts. Presumably, my edits should be removed as not desirable as they were based on setting primary sources against secondary sources. Discuss. Spenny 20:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Primary sources are documents or people very close to the situation being written about.. Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source. ...
An article or section of an article that relies on a primary source should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. Contributors drawing on primary sources should be careful to comply with both conditions.
<undent> It's certainly an interesting example of source based research pushing the boundaries of NOR. In a sense the section (which I've not checked out) is based on the secondary news reports, but in checking these reports against primary sources they're found to be unreliable and in error. It makes good sense to report what the various sources say without drawing conclusions, but as soon as we start drawing conclusions we're getting into the field of investigative journalism. Which is why it's preferable, though in my view not essential, to find a secondary source drawing that conclusion. Just out of interest I came across an interesting claim today and commented on it, [11] making it clear that we need a source other than the claimant before making too much of it. Whether the problem would be OR or RS is arguable, probably a combination of various policies. .. dave souza, talk 09:00, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Color me confused ... about exactly what Wikipedia is trying to achieve here.
Seems to me the distinctions should be straightforward, and not so radically different from what I learned in elementary school, high school, college, and the work world. At least in "hard" sciences and engineering, it's a Very Good Thing to use primary sources ... not to be discouraged (i.e. change that policy). If the author/editor of an article can't or won't do that, for whatever reason, then it's fair to report what "quality" secondary sources say, with enough context (citations etc) to highlight the fact that these are not facts from authoritative sources.
-- 69.226.208.120 01:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
"Primary sources" and "secondary sources" are commonly used, well defined terms in the humanities, especially historical scholarship. In sharp contrast, they are not used in the sciences (hard or soft), where the words "primary" and "secondary" have a huge range of uses, but almost never in combination with the word "source". Wikipedia is not a scientific enterprise, it belongs to the humanities, and the standard conventions of enclopedias should be used. Where some specific matter involves primary and secondary sources from a hard science, I suggest that you should do the right thing, use the appropriate source, and be aware that there is a cross-disciplinary terminology issue.
One issue that is not properly addressed in wikipedia policy, is that "reliable" is an adjective that applies to primary sources but not to secondary sources. A secondary source is only as reliable as the primary sources it contains. A better measure of quality of a secondary source is "reputability". Secondary sources make comment, analysis, criticism of something else tranformatative of primary source information. The interesting question is whether that comment/analysis/whatever is reputable. There is no sensible question of it being reliable. The comment/analysis is there, plain to see. -- SmokeyJoe 01:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I have been pondering on this issue for several days now. For the area that I do most of my contributions which are historical articles PSTS is clear, useful and a shield against charlatans both inside and outside the project. However on reading this talk page I asked myself the question what if there is an article on philosophy for which there are only published articles in journals, from the original paper through to the last published one. I chose philosophy as there need not be any data attached to the first publication of such a paper, (which can cloud the issue over primary sources,) and if there is any previous publication it tends to be yet another published article (" standing on the shoulders of giants" or " turtles all the way down")
In such cases the I can understand the problem people have with PSTS, but my answer is in that in such case all the reference papers for such an article can be treated as secondary sources, or secondary and tertiary sources (since once a Wikipedia article is written there is at least one tertiary source). I think that this policy document could be strengthened if a caveat is introduced into the PSTS section pointing out that in some disciplines such as philosophy and theoretical science, there may be a lack of what Wikipedia calls primary sources and in such cases editors should rely on what Wikipedia describe as secondary and respectable tertiary source when editing a Wikipeda article based on the papers of such an academic disciplines. -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Lately, a new line of logic has cropped up on WP:SPOILER. The guideline basically says that any section titled "Plot", "Plot summery", "Synopsis" or similar is assumed to contain spoilers and therefore needs no spoiler disclaimer. However, a small group of editors are now using the logic that because section titles are not " verifiable" through reliable source and are immune from said policy, they constitute original research and editors cannot makes assumptions on them (see WT:SPOILER#Removal of "spoilers implied by section title"). This has resulted in an edit war over that particular section of the WP:SPOILER guideline. -- Farix ( Talk) 15:50, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I have a question about conversion and WP:SYNTH. Suppose that source X says "John was a Jew when he married Tracy at age 25". Then source Y says "John converted to Christianity at age 37".
Using the above can we say "John converted from Judaism to Christianity at age 37"? Can we list John in List_of_notable_people_who_converted_to_Christianity#From_Judaism? Bless sins 20:06, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Here is another example. Suppose source X says "John was a Jew at age 17". Then source Y says "John was a Christian at age 37". But no source says both things at once.
Can this be used to put forth the position that John converted from Judaism?
Can this be used to put forth the position that John converted to Christianity?
Bless sins 01:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:When to cite says that "it is not necessary to cite a source in describing events or other details" when writing about the plot of a movie or book because "it should be obvious to potential readers that the subject of the article is the source of the information." What if, for example, a movie is adapted from a book and the book's story takes place during the 1950's and the movie takes place during the 1990's. Would it be ok to state in a "differences between the book and its film adaptation" section that the two don't take place during the same time period? Or would there need to be a source explictly mentioning that difference? Ospinad 17:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that in practice there can be no absolute (not relative) definition of a primary source, since the term "primary source" is used of accounts that are not those of eyewitnesses. Thucydides' history of the Peloponnesian War is considered a primary source for information on that war, though he was not an eyewitness of most of the events he describes and obviously drew on sources for what he wrote. His account is primary only in relation to accounts that are based on his.
In that case, Wikipedia rules on the use of sources should, I think, be exactly the same whether the sources are primary (in relation to one or more others) or secondary (in relation to one or more others).
The only distinction might be that the secondary character of a source should be noted whenever its primary source or sources can be consulted.
If these remarks are found irrelevant to the above discussion, please treat them as an aside. Perhaps indeed they have already been made in more appropriate form. Lima 04:44, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't mean to butt in to what is obviously a long and very detailed discussion, and I did read nearly the entire discussion, but... where is the consensus? The one thing I do like about Wikipedia is that a consensus among editors is like a steering column of a car, but in this entire discussion about sources what seems to be missing is any mention of consensus among sources. Just a thought. Metrax 06:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
The recent discussion about drafts 1-6 has been productive, in that new ideas have been introduced, and there have been some efforts to compromise. However, I don't think we can adopt any of these choices at this point as a whole. But maybe we can move forward incrementally. We don't have to explain the whole policy in one big bite. We can start with a general introduction, then add more detail as it finds consensus. From the discussion above, I'm pretty sure that at least the following language represents a consensus:
Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to "go beyond" what is expressed in the sources or use them in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source.
In short, the policy of "No original research" requires that Wikipedia users stick to the sources.This language has been included in all the proposals, and I don't see anybody disputing this language. If anyone finds any fault with it, let me know; otherwise, I'll plan to put it into the policy and we can concentrate on the next steps for adding incrementally more detail. COGDEN 21:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
(Outdent) This language is not terribly distinct from the current version, if a bit more clear. The currently policy reads ( here):
“ | Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to "go beyond" the sources or use them in novel ways. | ” |
I would recommend replacing it with:
“ | Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken to not "go beyond" what is expressed in the sources, use them in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source nor use the information out of context. In short, stick to the sources. | ” |
This is basically the same as COGDEN's language above, with an additional note about using information out of context and a shorter concluding statement. This is relatively simple change that seems to have a solid consensus. Thoughts? Vassyana 22:46, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Discussion has died down here a bit on this page. At some point, we need to unprotect the page and replace the presently-controversial PSTS section with some consensus language. Is everybody willing to suppress their natural inclination to revert while we start out with something clearly non-controversial that we can build on? If anybody is wholly unwilling to allow consensus language to emerge, I'd consider that to be an action against the best interests of Wikipedia, and if that's the case, perhaps the best way to remedy the situation would be to refer the matter to the arbitration committee. COGDEN 20:56, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
My observation is that there is a much broader and fundamentally stable consensus for the basic principle of PSTS than would be apparent merely by reviewing the recent discussions on the talk page. I would speculate that unprotection would serve to reveal this, given some time. But given that the "metapolicy" matter of protection of policy pages is not well discussed and not settled at this stage of the wiki's development, I have no preference about the protection issue. My own position on the substantive issue is as I said before, which is that whatever difficulties there may be with PSTS in arguing whether certain sources may be precisely fit into one of these categories (primary, secondary or tertiary), the basic distinction is key in much of the appllcation of WP:NOR throughout the wiki, and many thousands have come to rely on it. I honestly don't see an adequate warrant to be changing it at this stage. ... Kenosis 12:04, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Just a hypothetical here, since I still believe we can build consensus through negotiation. However, supposing we can't, that after these three months of discussion and eight-some-odd archive pages, there are still well-meaning editors who just can't bring themselves to work toward consensus and will always revert any moves we make in that direction, would it be appropriate to bring this issue before the Arbitration Committee? I don't know of any instance where it has resolved an issue like this, but there is no reason why it's not within their jurisdiction. We've tried negotiation, we've tried mediation, we've requested comments. Do you think the Arbcom would hear this issue, and is it worth a request? COGDEN 21:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Don't bother ArbCom. Insist that existing rules (in particular the rule that forbids those with a position to lock a page) be strictly observed. That would mean that those with a position could not slap a lock on a policy page whenever they saw a threat to some part of the policy they favor. The rule is clear: if they are partisans in a debate they are not to lock a page. Period. That should be particularly stringently enforced for policy pages as it is ludicrous for a group of editors to on the one hand insist that their pet wording be part of some policy (e.g., NOR) while they blatantly violate an even more important policy (showing their actual disregard for policy, other than as a tool to suit their agendas/desires.)
Review the Wikipedia pages about consensus (this is for personal edification) and notice how one example of improper behavior is for there to be continued opposition to a particular wording, with the opposition being expressed by a changing set of editors. Wikipedia recognizes that as prima facie evidence of an "ownership" problem or offense. Look over the history of the page (don't neglect to review the protection history) and decide, for yourself, if the history of WP:NOR is one that shows full active compliance with the rules and spirit of Wikipedia or if it shows offenses of the type already recognized and described in the policy-related pages.
I'm an outsider. I can watch Wikipedia self-destruct (or be destroyed from within) in a rather detached way. "Destroyed from within" has to mean "by administrators or some group of administrators." Editing, even bad or foolish editing, is not destructive of Wikipedia: Wikipedia is designed to prevent destruction from that direction - that's one if its primary strenths. Wikipedia is open to all to edit, Wikipedia explicitly advocates IAR, Wikipedia admonishes editors to "Be bold." The fundamental nature of Wikipedia is largely evident in and included in those three things. Those three things can be first neutered and then destroyed - the attempt is underway. -- Minasbeede 03:54, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Codgen: What did you have in mind that the arbitrators might be able to decide on? -- Fullstop 07:51, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I run into an interesting case recently ( Operation Wilno). This is a translation of a Polish historiography term operacja wileńska. The related event doesn't however seem to have an estabilished name in English historiography; the article was moved to Vilna offensive (as Vilna is more "politically correct" and the article describes a little more than just the Operation Wilno). A disambig at OW was created, but is now considered for deletion, with one of the main arguments being that the very term operation wilno is OR in English (even if it exists in Polish and is a disambig between 1919 and 1944 events). I wonder what's the stance on OR on such translations?
On a related note, I have run into an argument that WP:UE prefers that we translate names instead of using the original non-English title (that commonly comes up when I am writing articles on tiny Polish organizations that don't have an estabilished English name). Should they be translated into English but possibly invented names, or kept under non-English but certainly verifiable Polish names? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 13:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
The translation of Polish: operacja wileńska into English would be Operation Vilnius. So, we are not dealing with the unquestionable translation. Operation Wilno could have been used if the pushers of this name have demonstrated that it is indeed used with this obsolete English name for the city in this context. Not a single English language source is given with such name yet. While exotic and obsolete English names may be used if academic sources use them too, no evidence of the usage of Operation Wilno in English has been provided. -- Irpen 20:00, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
In general, the most reliable sources are books, journals, magazines, and mainstream newspapers; published by university presses or known publishing houses.
It looks to me like somewhere along the line someone shoe-horned in mainstream newspapers - that sentence does not run properly and confuses magazines in general with something which I think was meant to be far more specific: The Beano after all is from a known publishing house.
Although this is really the subject for reliable sources, as it is written here, it does not describe reliable sources. My only problem is how to fix, as I don't want another essay on RS and also we need to demonstrate context: the press as a reliable source for gossip and scandal but not for science. Spenny 19:54, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm writing a couple of proposals based on some of the recent discussion. The purpose here is not to "vote in" one version or the other. I just want to see which version is better, so that we can focus our efforts on achieving consensus. Keep in mind that these proposals are not perfect, and are just a starting point, not a final product. If you feel that both proposals are unacceptable, please don't say "neither". Instead, please create a "proposal 4" or a "proposal 5", etc., or suggest something calculated to move us toward consensus. This period of lack of consensus and flux has gone on far too long, and we need to start making positive proposals and positive efforts to move toward consensus.
Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to "go beyond" the sources or use them in novel ways.
Within Wikipedia articles we will find statements of fact and statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion. It is important to cite the right sources to back those different types of statements. Statements of fact should be cited to reliable sources that clearly demonstrate that fact. Statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion should be cited to reliable sources that contain the same interpretation, analysis or conclusion.
Editors cannot include their own interpretations of previously-published facts, unless that interpretation is either 1) an obvious and non-controversial consequence of the facts or 2) can be attributed to a reliable source. Nor can editors expand on an author's interpretations of fact, unless that expanded interpretation is also found in a reliable source.
Sources should be used in a way that does not give rise to new analyses, syntheses or original conclusions that are not already present in the sources. In short, the policy of "No original research" requires that Wikipedia users stick to the sources.
Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to "go beyond" the sources or use them in novel ways.
One useful way to ensure that a Wikipedia passage does not "go beyond" the sources is to consider the difference between what are often called primary and secondary sources. A primary source is a document or person with original information concerning the matter being written about. Primary sources are usually close to the matter at issue, and present information that is not filtered through a third-party. A secondary source is a document or person who obtains the relevant information from another source. Secondary sources may repeat or comment on primary sources, but do not provide first-hand information.
Wikipedia is not a primary source, and may never contain primary be the original source of information. Rather, Wikipedia is a secondary (or even
tertiary) source. Wikipedia may repeat and quote sources, but may not present undocumented information or theories concerning those sources. To the extent Wikipedia comments on a source or analyzes it, such commentary or analysis must not be original, and must be
verifiable. Conducting background research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from reliable published sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, in presenting such information in a Wikipedia article, great care should be taken not to take the information contained in the sources out of context or present it in a manner that violates the provisions of this policy.
Sources should be used in a way that does not give rise to new analyses, syntheses or original conclusions that are not already present in the sources. In short, the policy of "No original research" requires that Wikipedia users stick to the sources.
{nothing: the general OR policy is sufficient, and we need not make specific reference to sources}
Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to "go beyond" what is expressed in the sources or use them in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source.
Wikipedia articles include statements of fact, as well as statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion about these facts. Statements of fact should be cited to reliable sources that clearly demonstrate that fact. Statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion, including the notability of facts, should be cited to reliable sources that contain the same interpretation, analysis or conclusion. Editors must avoid including their own interpretations of facts.
In short, the policy of "No original research" requires that Wikipedia users stick to the sources.
In taking care to avoid "going beyond" the sources or using them in novel ways, sources can be considered in terms of three categories:
An article or section of an article that relies on a primary source should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. Contributors drawing on primary sources should be careful to comply with both conditions.
In some cases, such as peer-reviewed scientific papers, primary sources can provide the best and most accurate sources of fact. However, articles must be based on reliable third party sources, and care should be taken in considering the reliability of sources which have a close interest in the subject of the article.
Secondary and tertiary sources can provide both statements of fact, and statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion about the facts which are the subject of the article or section. They should be used in a way that does not give rise to new analyses, syntheses or original conclusions that are not already present in the sources.
Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to "go beyond" what is expressed in the sources or use them in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source.
Wikipedia articles include statements of fact, as well as statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion about these facts. Statements of fact should be cited to reliable sources that clearly demonstrate that fact. Statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion, including the notability of facts, should be cited to reliable sources that contain the same interpretation, analysis or conclusion. Editors must avoid including their own interpretations of facts.
In short, the policy of "No original research" requires that Wikipedia users stick to the sources.
In taking care to avoid "going beyond" the sources or using them in novel ways, sources can be considered in terms of three categories:
Contributors drawing on primary sources should be careful to comply with both conditions.
In some cases, such as peer-reviewed scientific papers, primary sources can provide the best and most accurate sources of fact. However, articles must be based on reliable third party sources, and care should be taken in considering the reliability of sources which have a close interest in the subject of the article.
Secondary and tertiary sources can provide both statements of fact, and statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion about the facts which are the subject of the article or section. They should be used in a way that does not give rise to new analyses, syntheses or original conclusions that are not already present in the sources.
Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to "go beyond" what is expressed in the sources or use them in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source.
Wikipedia articles include statements of fact, as well as statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion about these facts. Statements of fact should be cited to reliable sources that clearly demonstrate that fact. Statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion, including the notability of facts, should be cited to reliable sources that contain the same interpretation, analysis or conclusion. Editors must avoid including their own interpretations of facts.
In short, the policy of "No original research" requires that Wikipedia users stick to the sources.
In taking care to avoid "going beyond" the sources or using them in novel ways, sources can be considered in terms of two categories:
In some cases, such as peer-reviewed scientific papers, primary sources can provide the best and most accurate sources of fact. However, articles must be based on reliable sources, and care should be taken in considering the reliability of sources that have a personal interest in the subject of the article.
Secondary sources can provide statements of fact, as well as statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion about the facts which are the subject of the article or section. They should be used in a way that does not give rise to new analyses, syntheses or original conclusions that are not already present in the sources.
Please indicate which of the above proposals is better (or best), and a brief explanation why. Do not say "neither" unless you have a positive proposal to add, or something calculated to move us toward consensus. Marking up any of the above proposals is allowed. If you are okay with both, say that, so we know if there is a consensus to move in that direction.
"Wikipedia is not a primary source, and may never contain primary information." That is ambiguous as it can be read as, "we cannot copy information from a primary source and use it here." What it means to say is more like "Wikipedia is not a primary source, and may never be used to publish original, or primary, information." I wonder if that is the source of some of the confused debates in the past? Spenny 08:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Would a sensible other version be to combine the two: talk about facts, then note that there is a useful tool that can be used to help the thinking about sensible sourcing. Spenny 08:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I simply cannot contribute to wikipedia and follow these neverending, boring and depressive discussions, so sorry, but i'll post this intervent to make clear how many things are seen in a real wrong way:
I, again, have to say that Wikipedia policies cannot grant the reliability nor search about truth. This example above written:
Caesar's Gallic War is considered a pinnacle of ancient reporting. It however is also considered a fine example of propaganda writing and is known to contain numerous errors of hearsay. We cannot use it to support facts independently of reliable secondary sources without violating the basic principles of no original research and neutral point of view.
In other words, if you post something that is from secondary source it's OK, no thinking is need, on the contrary, activate own mind is forbidden. If you post something that is from primary source it must be discrimined from propaganda claims and facts.
Well, just tell me, Wikipedia searchs the truth only when primary sources are involved? So i can post every newspaper he said/she said and confutate or support every thing, even if it's Murdoch news talking about GWB? Hitler talking about Jews? Mussolini about fascism? No thanks, there's something really wrong with this discrimination. You cannot 'search the truth' only when a primary source is involved, forbid an analisis that MUST be used if you want 'discriminate' between propaganda claims and 'facts' (yes this involved brain activities) on every source, included that famous british racist encycl that almost started wikipedia.
In substance, Wiki forbids 'personal POV' and 'Original Research' but on the other hand, suggest 'analysis' on facts and claimings, but just from primary sources. This seems quite absurd to me. One wikipedian cannot seriously 'made' discriminations between facts and propaganda 'relativized' just to the kind of sources. And what about thertiary sources? Wikipedia.en, is true that boosted thanks to a 1911 british enciclopedy? And so why this 'disprace' for other enciclopedies (written by professionists, moreover)?
Botton line. I think, and i am not alone, that burocracy and tecnocracy, without clue of their limits, tends to de-humanize and worsening the society, treating humans as machines or 'problems'. The simple fact that Wikipedia cannot recognize that every enciclopedy written in the history has both 'OR' and 'NNPOV' and pretend to be 'different' with two zillions not-professional-and generally anonimous-workers is ,frankly speaking' laughable and out of reality.
Claiming the proibition of 'OR' with secondary sources and the 'syntesis' while at the same time is requested to discriminate on the type of sources (primary, sec, third, reliable, unreliable and so on...) is cleary an abstract construction, that gives only to wikilawyers the arrows to take out unliked statements, even if quite trivials.
Another thing, all this display also how the trust on wikipedians is really low because if not, it would be not necessary all this arrays of 'policies'. This bring also to much hipocrisy, because you cannot call for wikilove when you see the 'other' just a potential lyer and troll. And moreover, you can't say seriosly that my (or someone else) brain has no right to think while you asks for 'sintetize' with 'other words' available (and often in conflict) sources, re-writing and merging in a single article several book, magazine, newpapers articles.
Wikipedia calls for the 'use of brain' (for copyright), so it's laughable that then order to 'not express own opinions' during the process. Psicologically, biologically and logically it's simply impossible. And this will been until Wiki will be made directly by bot programs (if properly programmed).
All the words in this and other discussions means only that is pratically impossible to accept the only possible conclusion about OR and other stuff: if you run an opera like Wikipedia you cannot (even if this is the final dream for burocrats/tecnocrats) avoid lies, false statements and many other things, and the only way to improve Wikipedia is simply the partecipation and the discussion about this and that article. Let's let pruned by selection and logic the articles instead to fall in Maccartysm and hunt for witches and eretics. No to zealots, publicans and phariseis, but yes for a community capable to facing one each other work. -- Stefanomencarelli 21:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems that thus far, versions #1 and #5 are getting the most attention. I don't think anything in #1 is controversial, so I'm not commenting on that, but I wanted to address the controversial aspects of #5 and suggest some possible changes that would move us toward consensus and actually reflecting Wikipedia practice, should we choose to base a consensus draft on #5 rather than #1.
COGDEN 18:20, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Your Plato example is a good example of what's permissable. That is a descriptive claim. You are stating that Plato said "X", not supporting X by reference to Plato. Regarding your Frank example, the same holds true. Noting her observations as her own is one thing, citing facts based on them is a whole other ball of wax. Your suggested replacement text is a wide-open door to abuse of this policy, practically inviting original research. (I can further clarify this point if it does not follow to you.) "Third party", as used throughout policy, adheres to its normal definition of "independent", or a party not directly connected to the topic being discussed. It may be better for clarity to replace such uses with "independent" to make the meaning clear. Could you provide an example of a secondary source that simply regurgitates a primary source without generalization, analysis, synthesis, explanation or other accompanying claims? I agree on tertiary sources, as I've noted in the past. I think it is superfluous to what we are discussing here and even in academia the distinction between secondary and tertiary is very poorly defined (and openly noted as such). Vassyana 05:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I incorporated my comments above into a new compromise version #6, which hopefully should be less controversial than #5, and maybe more likely to lead to a consensus draft. COGDEN 18:06, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Hmm "Research that consists of collecting and organizing material" is rewriting a topic based on articles; in other words copycat researchers( the types who get banned at schools ); what i sometimes miss are original ideas who explain. Rather then claiming to be a publisher or having it from another source, it should be possible to explain to others in ones own words.
Probaply the "Math" and "Physiscs" parts could realy bennefit from such a policy, they are realy hard to read for normal people like me.
Peter-art
11:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)