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I apologise if this has been discussed before; I found a discussion way back in WT:NCGN/Archive 1 of whether "alphabetic order" meant the languages should be ordered (Finnish: B, Swedish: A) or the terms should (Swedish: A, Finnish: B), and I see the former was decided upon. But if there's been a discussion of this, I missed it:
WP:NCGN says "Other relevant language names may appear in alphabetic order of their respective languages — i.e., (Finnish: Suomenlahti; Russian: Финский залив, Finskiy zaliv; Swedish: Finska viken; Estonian: Soome laht)." Am I missing something, or is that example of "alphabetic order" not in alphabetic order? Wouldn't alphabetical order be "Estonian: Soome laht; Finnish: Suomenlahti; Russian: Финский залив, Finskiy zaliv; Swedish: Finska viken" (by language name; or "Swedish: Finska viken; Russian: Финский залив, Finskiy zaliv; Estonian: Soome laht; Finnish: Suomenlahti" by term)? Should the example be reordered? Or if it is corrct as-is, can it be clarified? -sche ( talk) 20:44, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
I recently found a curiosity when scanning through the activity feed that wasn't covered by this guideline. Apparently, in Andika County, Khuzestan Province, Iran, there are two villages named Hoseynabad. One is titled Hoseynabad (32°10′ N 49°21′ E), Andika, the other Hoseynabad (32°14′ N 49°25′ E), Andika. I propose an addition to the guideline that states:
Let me know what you think. -- Veggies ( talk) 23:35, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
One article might be a problem... The Infobox settlement
template seems to not work for two boxes on one page. What a pain. There is not even enough information in source (actually, there is virtually none) to establish which is the older/original. Maybe have one combined infobox? --
Born2cycle (
talk)
01:15, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Hi everyone. I propose that the common naming convention for places across the world be changed. It has already been done for Canadian places at WP:CAN, but for other countries, the common naming consensus should be adjusted to remove the state, province, island name from the end if possible, because it is an unnecessary disambiguation, unless it is not a primary term. At WP:USPLACE, it states only specific non-notable communities in a Manual of Style guidebook show have no state names at the ending of the title, such as Seattle. However, other destinations, like Tacoma, Washington, should be allowed to be renamed to Tacoma in this case, as it is the primary topic. In any case, I do not understand why Canada would obtain an exception to this rule. TBr and ley ( what's up) 17:01, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
Some might complain that this makes the titles unpredictable. Again, this has proven not to be problematic in any country that already follows this convention, and the lack of predictability is actually a good thing. In every case where the title must be known, it should be actually checked (which, let's face it, is no big deal). Having a naming convention that may or may not call for disambiguation in each individual case makes it much more likely that people will do the checking that they should, thus avoiding a variety of problems (See User:Born2cycle/FAQ#What problems are caused by naming conventions that apply even when disambiguation is not required? and User:Born2cycle/FAQ#Reader_benefit). -- Born2cycle ( talk) 18:09, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
This was discussed at length quite recently on this very page, with clear consensus to keep the current convention. Let's move on. Jonathunder ( talk) 04:43, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
But go to www.britannica.com and type in "mittenwald" slowly. By the time you get to "mitte", "Mittenwald (Germany)" appears among the prompts. That's where you need it! (Not at the article; that's arranged differently. By the time you get there, you have been informed that Mittenwald is in Germany so you don't need it in the heading.) Try also a raw unformatted Google search on mittenwald britannica; see the helpful precision there also.
While looking at the support/oppose !vote count summary is no substitute for reading, evaluating and weighing the arguments associated with each !vote, it can give us an idea of whether the status quo or proposal to change has consensus support.
I will add that, in general, when a long-standing status quo in a given situation repeatedly fails to garner consensus support, even though a proposal to change may even appear to have less support in terms of !vote counting, because of the natural human bias towards opposing change, if the proposal is well supported by policy and conventions, and opposed mostly by WP:JDLI arguments, the change is likely to gain support and even strong consensus support if it is adopted. I urge the closing admin to take this under advisement when evaluating the comments and arguments above, especially in the context of how long the exceptions to disambiguate only when necessary in place names have been controversial.
The lists below are intended to be updated accordingly, by anyone as appropriate, as more participate. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 20:09, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Support:
Oppose:
You are entirely incorrect, B2C, in stating that the change is mostly opposed by JDLI arguments. Once again you brush aside the many reasoned arguments made for keeping the current convention. You also seem to be suggesting that the change should be made even though the majority oppose it, so that the change can then gain support. The change cannot be made without a consensus to do so, and that does not exist. Omnedon ( talk) 20:18, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I remind you that consensus is not determined by counting !votes, but by evaluating the strength of the arguments presented. So, yes, sometimes consensus is contrary to the majority of those participating in a given discussion. It's rare, but I do believe that this is one of those situations. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 20:33, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
On the other hand, all of the nine supporters so far have given reasons based in policy and/or convention (e.g disambiguate only if necessary) as basis for their positions. The proposer and I have both given extensive arguments supporting the proposal, and no one opposing has addressed any of the points made, much less refuted these arguments.
If it was closed today, I don't see how an evaluation of the arguments could result in anything other than finding consensus favoring the proposal. Do you? -- Born2cycle ( talk) 23:43, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Thank you to Jayron32 ( talk · contribs) for supporting his oppose !vote above with an actual relevant argument. Jayron writes:
it is very common in the U.S. to consider the name of the state to be an intergral part of the place name much as a person's surname is an integral part of their name.
While it is true that someone from Nashville is likely to answer the question "Where are you from?" with "Nashville, Tennessee", that's not a very good question to ask to ascertain the name of the city one is from. The better, more direct, question, of course, is: "What is the name of the city you are from?" Try it. Ask people that question. What you'll get is answers of the form, "Nashville", without adding the state.
Further, in comparing this situation to names for people (the "Bill Clinton" example is often used), it must be pointed out that both "Bill" and "Clinton" are used as names of the same person. But nobody refers to Nashville as Tennessee; Tennessee (alone) is not the name of the city in any context, while Clinton is the name of the person in many contexts. So these are really incomparable examples.
The name of a city is the name of the city. Yes, for context when necessary we often add the state, but that doesn't make it part of the name, much less an integral part of the name. In the case of "Nashville, Tennessee", Tennessee is of course simply the name of the state that the city named Nashville is in.
In fact, to add the state to the article's title for any reason other than necessary disambiguation conveys incorrect information: that the state is part of the name of subject of that article. Why deliberately and unnecessarily misinform our readers like this? -- Born2cycle ( talk) 21:23, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't think there is any bad faith here. People are just not realizing this effect, as is made evident by claims that the state is integral to the name of the city. That's just plainly incorrect.
Whether readers benefit from having the state in the title is a separate question not relevant to the subject of this subsection. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 21:35, 25 January 2013 (UTC) Updated. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 21:38, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
Once one realizes that the state is not part of the name of the city, then any misinforming in terms of suggesting the state is part of the name of the city that stems from having it unnecessarily in the title is deliberate. Now, one might argue that that misinformation is relatively minor compared to some claimed "useful" benefit of having the state in the title, but it's still misinformation regarding the name of the city, and deliberate. That doesn't mean bad faith, necessarily. It could be perceived as a good faith trade-off. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 23:47, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
B2C: To argue against City, State on the grounds that including the state "misleads" and "misinforms" readers is really reaching.
For one thing, it seemingly assumes that readers use Wikipedia article titles specifically to determine whether the formal name of a community is either City or City, State, but I see nothing to suggest that's how readers operate or indeed that they would even care about the intricacies of what we're presently debating.
For another, I see nothing to suggest that "article title" is synonymous with "name"; in fact, a lead sentence in WP:TITLE says, "the title may simply be the name (or a name) of the subject of the article, or it may be a description of the topic." Further, it says that "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's 'official' name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources." A quick survey of the sources cited in articles for cities in my area shows City, State used very frequently, in reliable sources ranging from Census resources [5] [6] to the communities' own websites [7] [8]... which of course also calls into question the very suggestion that the state is not part of the city's name. ╠╣uw [ talk 12:05, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
If you don't see that WP:COMMONNAME indicates that titles should reflect names when reasonably possible, I don't know how to help you, except to suggest that you click repeatedly on SPECIAL:RANDOM to see how that convention is practically universal on WP, especially if you ignore titles of articles about topics that don't have names (and thus have descriptive titles).
WP:TITLE says "it prefers the name that is most frequently used". While city, state may be frequently used to refer to a given state, it's not a name of the city, so that's irrelevant. Though specifying the state name after the city name, separated by a comma, is common practice (no one denies this), the names of the city and the state are never-the-less distinct. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 15:54, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
The rest is being covered in our discussion at #Which is more concise? "City" or "City, State"?, so I won't repeat here. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 14:32, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Why do you guys keep repeating the undisputed fact that RS commonly use city, state? RS also commonly use just city. The two facts cancel each other in terms of determining which form is preferred. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 16:06, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
It has been argued that having state in the title benefits readers. For example:
it seems ridiculous to have an article called Oodnadatta, when most of the world has no idea that it is a town, let alone a town in the state of South Australia. Why not Oodnadatta, South Australia? A little long, but so the hell what? What benefit is that loss of precision to anyone? How, in a worldwide encyclopedia, can such sheer Oodnadattic or South Australian chauvinism gain such traction? It bespeaks a certain insecurity, perhaps. "Oodnadatta is so notable, and so famous, that everyone knows it's in South Australia. And if they don't, they should!"
The argument completely and conveniently ignores the fact that titles are supposed to be recognizable to those familiar with the article's topic, not necessarily to those who are unfamiliar with the topic. There is absolutely no implication of expected widespread notability of the name in the reasons for doing this.
I think we can all agree that "most of the world has no idea that [Oodnadatta] is a town, let alone a town in the state of South Australia." What's entirely unclear, at least to me, is why that undisputed fact is a reason to put "South Australia" in the title of the article. I mean, most of the world also has no idea that (clicks on SPECIAL:RANDOM a few times) Tony Henderson is former Newcastle footballer, that Theispas was the Araratian weather-god, that Pârâul Arsurilor is a Romanian river, or that Take Me to Town is a 1953 film, but these facts are not reasons to add that respective information to each of these article titles. Why? Because we understand that people seeing these titles are either looking for them (and thus already have an understanding of what they are), or are seeing them in a context where what they are is clear from that context (like a link on a dab page or in another article). The only exception to this is possibly in a category list, but even there the category itself of course tells you what category it's in. For example, Oodnadatta is listed in Category:Towns_in_South_Australia.
So, how exactly do readers benefit from having states in titles? What readers in what contexts? And why should the undisputed fact that most of the world has no idea what these places are a reason to add information to their titles? -- Born2cycle ( talk) 00:10, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Vegas, a direct harm to readers of including the state in the title unnecessarily is misinforming them about the name of the topic - it incorrectly suggests the state is an integral part of the city's name. The section above is about that. Another harm is indirect, created by loss of time and energy due to editors spending years and years debating an issue that remains unresolved ultimately because of an inconsistency in how we name US places from most other articles, including most other articles about places. The harm to readers comes from the loss of presumed improvements that don't happen because of these unresolved issues and resulting debates. Maybe these don't add up to big harms, and you might even think they're "worth it", but against what? That is, what is the benefit to the readers... hence the original question to this subsection.
So, in what specific context is a reader actually helped by a more informative title? When, specifically, does a reader have to open an article to figure out what the article is about? Walk us through it. Give us some specific examples. I mean, it's not like readers encounter pages that are entirely blank except for a link to Oodnadatta. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 01:05, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
One of the criteria for choosing titles is concision, for which "brief", "short" and "terse" are all synonyms. For any city with a unique name or which is the primary topic for its name, it's should be plainly clear that "city" is more concise than "City, State". All other factors held equal, the more concise title should be preferred. This is relevant because the other criteria doesn't clearly favor the "City, State" form. That is, neither is more recognizable (to those who are familiar with the city), neither is clearly more natural, both are equally precise, and the shorter form is consistent with how most other city articles are titled. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 16:23, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Anyway, I explained below why it's important that we use this "idiosyncratic" interpretation. I understand you disagree, but don't understand why. An explanation, that addresses the points/explanation I gave, would be helpful. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 08:00, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Naturalness says: "Titles are those that readers are likely to look for or search with as well as those that editors naturally use to link from other articles. Such titles usually convey what the subject is actually called in English."
Now, are readers searching for Nashville more "likely to look for or search with" Nashville, or Nashville, Tennessee? Which one, if either, better conveys what Nashville is actually called in English?
Just above, at the start of this subsection, I even stipulated neither is clearly more natural, but you're going to tell me that the longer version answers these questions better? Seriously.
As for consistency, it says: "Titles follow the same pattern as those of similar articles."
There can be no denying that most other articles about cities use just the city name for the title, when it's available. One can also argue that US cities in particular have so many ambiguous names, that most require including the state in their titles for disambiguation, thus the pattern most of them must follow is city, state, and so even those with unique names should also follow this pattern. Which of these two points is more compelling is something of a coin toss, hence the conclusion that consistency doesn't clearly favor either.
It's true that consistency also references specific guidelines, like this one ( WP:PLACE), but since exactly what this one should say is what it is at issue here, it would be circular reasoning to rely on what this guideline says in this discussion. However, about guidelines like this consistency does give us this applicable guidance: "ideally indicate titles that are in accordance with the principles above". And that is essentially what is driving this RfC's proposal: making WP:PLACE better indicate titles that are in accordance with the other principles, including conciseness. This is why the question in the heading of this subsection is what it is, and why I've been focussed on it so much with respect to WP:PLACE for years. We should all be able to recognize that for choosing between region-qualified and region-unqualified place names the other principles do not clearly indicate either the shorter or longer form, but conciseness does, of course.
Now, is anyone going to actually address what I just said, or will this be followed with more diversionary filibustering? -- Born2cycle ( talk) 12:38, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Regarding naturalness, for instance: WP:TITLE does indeed say that titles should convey what the subject is actually called. How do we determine what a subject is actually called? We check reliable sources. How are US places frequently called in reliable sources? Placename, State. We've already been through this.
Regarding "what readers are likely to look for or search with", I don't see the evidence that a reader searching for a specific US place will be unlikely to consider the state, particularly given that the common usage (as indicated by reliable sources) is often for the state to be included.
Regarding consistency of titles, you're asserting that it's "something of a coin toss" as to which method is more consistent. Not so. Following Place, State produces a more consistent result for the titling of US places that does a convention that would name many as Place and many as Place, State.
Regarding conciseness, that is indeed one of the goals. I also know that "you've been focussed on it ... for years." (Believe me, we all know.) It is, however, one goal out of several, and Wikipedia's guideline asserts that it's appropriate to consider all of those goals and to sometimes favor or more over the others. This is done through discussion, which we've had at great length, and which has not led to exceptionless minimum disambiguation becoming the favored convention in this case. ╠╣uw [ talk 13:25, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Regarding your "consistency" argument, you repeat, in a reworded form, what I just said. I wrote: "...thus the pattern most of them must follow is city, state, and so even those with unique names should also follow this pattern". You wrote: "Following Place, State produces a more consistent result". Yes, that's ONE of the consistency arguments. The OTHER is "most other articles about cities use just the city name for the title", so using just the city name, when possible, produces a more consistent result. The difference here is whether the OTHER arguments, not just your own, are recognized, and a wash is seen as the coin toss it is.
If one doesn't ignore all of the discussion that has occurred here and before, especially the arguments made by the other side, it should be clear that all of the WP:CRITERIA principles other than conciseness do not clearly favor either the region-qualified or the region-unqualified form of the place name over the other. That's why conciseness is especially weighty to this proposal. Conciseness is the only WP:CRITERIA principle that clearly favors one of the forms; and of course it favors the more concise form. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 13:50, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
You worry that that means we "never get anywhere", but I'm not sure where you think we're supposed to be getting. We're simply discussing and commenting on matters relevant to the proposal at hand to see if consensus emerges. Such consensus is good to seek through constructive discussion, but if a proposal does not gain consensus support, that is an acceptable result, and shouldn't necessarily be seen as a failure nor as an invitation to rehash.
As to your specific points: the common usage of City, State in reliable sources is relevant to the question of naturalness. No one is asserting that every source uses that form in every case; certainly some do not. One can omit a placename's state in context just as one can omit a person's surname in context. I understand that that is something we disagree about as well, and have already discussed repeatedly before, so it seems unnecessary to repeat that debate again here.
As to your statement, "the difference here is whether the OTHER arguments, not just your own, are recognized": I don't say other arguments aren't recognized. All points should be considered and weighed through discussion by the community, as the many involved editors in this forum have done, are doing, and will continue to do. You feel that some of the arguments are "a wash". That's fine. Others (myself among them) disagree, and have said why. Please respect that. ╠╣uw [ talk 19:37, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
I missed where you or anyone else explained why having basically equal arguments favoring one or the other form based on a given criterion doesn't create "a wash" with respect to that criterion. What I've seen is the asserting of the argument favoring the longer form, and ignoring or dismissing (at least not acknowledging) the similar argument favoring the shorter form, and then conveniently concluding in favor of the longer form. In fact, this is exactly what Omnedon just did above:
United States place names are so often re-used from state to state that a majority of articles must have the state included. So within the scope of United States places, it is consistent to use that for the remaining titles; and that is not a "wash" or a "coin toss".
Now, let's look at naturalness, and these two relevant undisputed points:
As for what you quote, the assertion I see being made is that it's more consistent to use the longer form for all US places since the longer form under either convention would have to be used for most of those places anyway. This seems reasonable. Your complaint with the quote seems to be that the editor doesn't in his statement specifically address or refute your argument for the shorter form (or your assertion that it's a wash), which is an odd complaint. Other editors are here to comment on this RfC, and shouldn't face hectoring charges of being "totally unreasonable" if they don't specifically refute to your satisfaction a point that you yourself make.
As for your specific question, we've already discussed it. Place, State is frequently used by reliable sources ranging from the Census Bureau to official municipal websites, and while Place by itself is indeed also used, such use tends to be in cases where state is already established by context (just as one might simply say "Clinton" when it's established that one is speaking about "Bill Clinton".) On the subject of naturalness, WP:TITLE asserts that a natural title is one that readers are "likely to look for or search with"; given that the context necessary to omit the name of the state cannot assumed to be present in a world-wide encyclopedia (as well as for other reasons, such as the frequently ambiguous and non-unique nature of US place names), it's reasonable to consider that the user will indeed be likely to use the state.
You may disagree with that, and that's fine. I'm not demanding you agree, nor am I demanding that you refute me; I'm simply contributing my view and my reasons for it. However, I'd ask that you please stop accusing others of taking opposing positions "without reason" when such reasons (even if you disagree with them) have indeed been clearly stated many times. ╠╣uw [ talk 00:13, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
This is not the case for concision (Omnedon's novel argument notwithstanding), and why it's so significant here. Concision clearly favors the shorter form. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 01:37, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Omnedon, you have introduced a new argument. Thank you. I don't recall anyone ever arguing that "city, state" is more concise than "city" (or, more generally that XY is more concise than X for any string Y when X uniquely refers to the topic in question, or that topic is recognized to be primary for X). But based on a cherry-picking interpretation of a dictionary definition of "concise", it's certainly valid. The problem with it, of course, is that there is no precedent, so far as I know, for using this interpretation of concision in article title determination, certainly none accepted by consensus. If I'm mistaken and there is such consensus-backed precedent for this interpretation, I, for one, would be very appreciative if you brought it to our attention. But I suggest if we accepted this interpretation of concision, a great many titles, long stable, would be put into question.
As to your other points, I think this discussion will remain more coherent if we take them up in separate sections as they're not specifically about the principle question this section is about; the question about which form is more concise. While the issue about whether the arguments with respect to other criteria are a wash or not are relevant here, because that's the basis for my claim about why concision is so weighty on this issue, it's really tangential to the main point. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 20:30, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Besides, per your reasoning, City, State, Country is even more "concise" than "City, State", since "City, State, Country" is more informative than "City, State". And, there's no reason why this reasoning should not apply to titles of articles about places outside of the US. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 03:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Born2Cycle: You've been more than clear what your views are: you've expressed them at frankly remarkable length and have gotten feedback on them. However, several editors are now expressing the concern that it's grown to the point of a filibuster. Please consider taking a breather. ╠╣uw [ talk 11:40, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
The recognizability criterion states:
The bold emphasis is mine. I submit that to someone familiar with a given city, the city will be just as recognizable from the name alone as it is from the name qualified with the region it is in. Therefore, the recognizability criterion does not favor either form; it's a wash. For example, to someone who remembers driving through McLouth (and, years later, might be looking it up on WP), McLouth is just as recognizabile as is McLouth, Kansas. Neither form is favored by this criterion.
Above, Omnedon offered the following argument that it's not a wash, that the recognizability criterion favors the region-qualified form, at least for US cities:
The question of recognizability raises a point about familiarity. WP:TITLE says, "Titles are names or descriptions of the topic that are recognizable to someone familiar with (though not necessarily expert in) the topic." When we speak of places in the United States, some are recognizable the world over -- like Chicago. But many would be unfamiliar to the vast majority of the population. Removing the state from a title like "McLouth, Kansas" means that only someone who already knew about this town would find it recognizable as such, and very few people in the United States would know about it. Yet the title "McLouth, Kansas" is quickly and easily recognizable as a populated place in the state of Kansas -- something that most United States readers would instantly know without being an expert. So this also is not a "wash" or a "coin toss".
This argument must be rejected for at least the following reasons.
And if we don't ignore the crucial qualification, then the recognizability criterion does not favor either form; titles using either form are equally recognizable to someone familiar with (though not necessarily expert in) the topic. It's a wash. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 22:16, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
I confess I don't understand what you're getting at here:
You assume that "the topic" is the specific place in question, such as "McLouth", and very few people in the United States are likely ever to have heard of it. But "the topic" may also be broader: places in the United States, or in Kansas.
Why on earth should this discussion continue on your talk page? This is a community discussion which has been going on here. It should stay here. What is your goal in moving it elsewhere? The focus is on article titles for places in the United States. That's what we're dealing with, in practice -- here. But the discussion is increasingly difficult anyway. We explain why it not a "wash" and you continue to assert that it is. I provide a definition of "concise" and you call it cherry-picking. You have your views on this. We have ours. Omnedon ( talk) 01:29, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
The topic of an article is what the article is about regardless of its title, so of course the topic of McLouth "must be the specific town and nothing else". The topic is "the specific town and nothing else" regardless of whether its title is McLouth, McLouth, Kansas, McLouth, Kansas, United States, City of McLouth, or anything else. Changing the title does not affect the WP:SCOPE of the topic.
I agree this proposal is ostensibly about WP:PLACE and in practice it mostly (but not only) affects WP:USPLACE, but there are consequences that potentially affect all other article titles. This is because in our discussions we present arguments, as we should, based on what WP:AT says and means, and WP:AT governs how all articles are titled, not just USPLACE.
We all know that WP does not have hard and fast rules. Not only is there WP:IAR, a pillar, but our rules, like our articles, are constantly subject to the pressures of evolution. One of the ways rules change is when it is observed that they do not accurately reflect practice.
Despite all that, our titles, and the rules governing them, are remarkably stable. Well over 99% of our titles are very stable - have not changed in years and will probably not ever change - primarily because most topics have a single obvious name, and our practice is to use that name, and nothing more, as the article's title. The primary exceptions to this occur when a topic has no single obvious name, or when the name has multiple uses. But the primary practice, to use just the single obvious name when possible, is reflected at WP:AT, primarily in the recognizability and conciseness criteria. This is why the vast majority of our titles are as stable as they are.
But over the last few years there have been efforts to change this. In numerous RM discussions, it has been argued that titles of various articles need to be more descriptive to help the reader. In policy discussions it has been argued that our goal for recognizability should be expanded from only those who are familiar with a topic, to all readers, and that concision should be understood to prefer longer titles when they are more informative. Of course, the intent of all these efforts is not to destabilize our titles, but that would be the unintended consequence, were they to succeed.
The main reason we enjoy the extraordinary stability in well over 99% of our article titles is because there are no policy grounds, given a certain understanding and interpretation of the criteria at WP:AT, to change them. To understand where I'm coming from, you really have to appreciate this. Key to this understanding and appreciation is that the scope of recognizability is limited to "those familiar with the topic" - that there is no goal to make titles recognizable to anyone who is not familiar with the respective topics. Equally critical is that concision means we don't add information to our titles to make them more informative than is necessary for meeting the recognizability criteria (given its limited scope).
To illustrate what I mean, consider the following list of five randomly selected titles. On the left are current titles, stable because of the interpretation of recognizability and conciseness I just explained; right of each arrow are titles that could be reasonably justified if, for example, your interpretation of conciseness were to be accepted, adopted, and applied.
If we interpret recognizability or conciseness in any way that makes McLouth, Kansas more recognizable or more concise than McLouth, then we are accepting interpretations that will destabilize the entire title space on WP. On the other hand, if we recognize that McLouth meets recognizability just as well as McLouth, Kansas (because the scope is explicitly limited "to those familiar"), and that McLouth meets conciseness better than McLouth, Kansas, then we are interpreting these criteria in the manner that gives us the title stability we currently enjoy. That's what is ultimately at stake here, and why I feel so strongly about it. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 17:54, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
A slippery slope argument is not necessarily a fallacy.
I recognize that this set of articles has been this way for a long time, and is stable. That doesn't mean that these titles are consistent with the practice and policy that gives us overall stability. It could be an anomaly, based on JDLI preference (albeit popular JDLI preference) rather than on policy, which I believe it is.
My ultimate concern is overall title stability. I believe overall title stability is achieved with application of title policy interpreted consistently in practice. My concern here is that PLACE guidelines that are inconsistent with title criteria contribute to a loose or novel interpretation of the criteria that makes us more vulnerable to an overall title system destabilization.
To the point, I have these questions... if "McLouth, Kansas" is "more concise" than "McLouth", then isn't Marriotts Ridge High School, Marriottsville, Maryland "more concise" (more informative, and no more less brief than "McLouth, Kansas" is less brief than "McLouth") than Marriotts Ridge High School? If so, then how isn't Donji Mosti, Croatia also more concise than Donji Mosti? In either case, how do you draw the distinction?
How you draw the distinction is key because currently the line is drawn by considering whether more information is needed for disambiguation. If the extra information is not needed for disambiguation, then it's not included in the title. It's not a line defined crystal clearly, but it's pretty close, and, in practice, it works remarkably well. If your policy-based defense of US Place relies on an interpretation of the consistency criterion that crosses this line, then you need to explain what the new line is, and how it is drawn. Or, you need to come up with a new policy based argument, or concede that you don't have one. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 19:30, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
TBrandley: This RfC would affect US placename convention, which (as other editors rightly point out) was already the subject of a very recent and very lengthy RfC – one which closed as "maintain status quo". I see no reason to reopen the question again so soon. I would strongly recommend either:
Thanks ╠╣uw [ talk 17:30, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
B2C, as far as I can see, you want one thing regarding this issue: no "unnecessary disambiguation" in titles, ever. No compromise. There are reasons why many of us do not feel this is best for the encyclopedia or its users. They've been stated again and again. You say, "...the only way the problem here -- place name titles inconsistent with disambiguate only when necessary -- is ever going to be resolved, ..." So are you saying that you will never accept any other solution? If so, how are we supposed to discuss this and try to reach compromise? There are other solutions. One is to acknowledge that the principle you support isn't the only principle involved in article titles, that the "one size fits all" approach may simply not work in such a diverse environment, and that Wikipedia, like the world, is more complicated than that. Omnedon ( talk) 23:08, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
I didn't start this proposal. I'm just the messenger. I'm just pointing out that as long titles remain unnnecessarily disambiguated, they will remain an obvious problem for many. You may not like that. You may not like me pointing it out. Sorry. But don't blame me for it. That's just the way it is, and you, I nor anyone else has the power or ability to change that. What we can change is the titles so that they're not so obviously inconsistent and problematic. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 23:34, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
It's unresolved because this convention remains inconsistent with other conventions and this inconsistency will continue to cause people like Roman Spinner [18], Marcus Qwertyus [19], Unreal7 [20], Kauffner (RFC above), TBrandley (this RFC) and countless others to seek to have it rectified via guideline or one article at a time, year after year, until it is resolved. It's the actions of all these people, not my words, that establishes the lack of resolution here. If they didn't take those actions, then we would have nothing to talk about.
Conversely, once the issue is resolved -- the convention is changed to make all place names disambiguated only when necessary, exactly as has been proposed here -- peace and tranquility will ensue. That is, it will be resolved, finally. Just as it has been resolved for Canada and Australia place names. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 19:13, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
While it's true that theoretically "peace and tranquility" could ensue if we could force everyone who brings up RM requests and RFCs contrary to this convention to stop, but last I checked we have no such power. The same argument was made, for years, at Yogurt. And my response to that here is the same: We have a fundamental problem of inconsistency with other rules/articles that gives basis to those who favor change. If that change occurs, then the result will be consistent with how we do things, and so nobody will have basis to justify the change in reverse. And, so, peace and tranquility will actually ensue. I was right about that at Yogurt, and I'm confident I'm right about that here too, because fundamentally it's the same problem, with the same solution. It is that simple. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 23:20, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
So let's reword it (after all, the proposal as made doesn't make any sense (striking as unduly harsh) and reflects an incorrect understanding of the actual situation). How about this: RfC to affirm that the names of cities should be listed in the most concise way, without adding unnecessary disambiguation, except when a different rule has been formally agreed to for a particular country. (I put it that way because I don't know if there are other countries that have stated a preference to add the state/province/départment to the city name, or if it is just the U.S.) --
MelanieN (
talk)
19:57, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Anyway, your assumption that "the "unnecessary disambiguation" has already been removed from countries other than the U.S." is incorrect. The examples provided in the proposal are obviously meant to be illustrative. It's not unreasonable to assume that people should be able to grasp the concept from just one example. But if you need another...
Similarly, the only way the problem here -- place name titles inconsistent with disambiguate only when necessary -- is ever going to be resolved, is by making all the place name titles consistent with disambiguate only when necessary. Don't blame the messenger. That's not a threat. It's a simple prediction based on facts and years of observation. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 22:17, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
B2C, you seem to assume bad faith on the part of those that disagree with you. You speak of pointing out flaws in arguments, insanity, inconsistency, silliness, little minds, pointless discussion, et cetera. You continue to communicate, in various ways, that you will not stop until you get the result you want, and that you have no respect for any opposing view. The previous RfC discussion produced a strong majority result, but you say there was no resolution. All this makes it difficult to have a productive discussion, when it seems so clear that you will not compromise. There is another way: accept that article naming is more complicated than you make it seem. Omnedon ( talk) 20:27, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
The creation of this RFC/proposal, before I commented on it, along with various similar actions by others, indicates a lack of resolution regarding this issue, not my words.
You claim, There is another way: accept that article naming is more complicated than you make it seem. How can I accept something that none of the evidence supports, and all of the evidence contradicts? I've seen this and similar "beating a dead horse" arguments made time after time after time, always in defense of some status quo, and time after time after time, it's eventually proven wrong.
Article naming does not have to be complicated. We can have clear and simple rules that lead to obvious non-controversial titles. Of course there will always be a few difficult individual cases here and there, but there is no justification for creating an unnatural and inherent conflict by having a rule that treats a whole category of titles differently from all others. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 21:33, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Your argument that using the city, state convention is following usage in RS might sound reasonable at first, but it's actually clearly wrong.
For any given city, it's true that both "cityname" alone and "cityname, statename" are commonly used to refer to the city in reliable sources, but in contexts where the location of the city is known the statename is rarely included, indicating sources include statename as information, not as part of the name. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 23:11, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
First, please stop referring to what you believe I like or dislike. Personal likes/dislikes, including mine, whatever they may be, are irrelevant here, of course.
Now, clarifying an otherwise ambiguous situation with specific conventions in a way that does not contradict general conventions shared by most other articles is one thing, and not a problem. Establishing specific conventions that are contrary to general conventions shared by most other articles is quite another, and usually creates problems. Doing so does not necessarily create problems, but the evidence in this case regarding how problematic this convention is, years and years of controversy involving hundreds of editors on this page and countless talk pages of US city articles, is overwhelming. Until the root problem is identified and rectified, that won't change. That's not a threat, it's an educated prediction based on years of reams of data.
Also, Wikipedia:Other stuff exists. Just because there are other problematic conventions that contradict basic titling principles like disambiguate only when necessary is not an excuse to not solve that problem elsewhere, like here. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 23:03, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
As an aside, we would be a lot better off if the priorities were completely worked out and clearly stated for consistent/objective application. It would end most RM debates which are usually about a reasonable title and a reasonable alternative, and are dominated by JDLI arguments based on each person prioritizing the principles in a manner that happens to favor his or her personal preference.
Resolving the underlying reasons for having these never-ending disagreements is what is at stake here. And years and years of having different experienced editors repeatedly bring up the same objections to a given situation is about the strongest evidence there can be in favor of needing a change. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 18:48, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
The flexibility, which dilutes if not defeats the value of the principles, is negative, not positive. The result is that in any given situation in deciding between titles A and B, instead of looking at the principles to decide which is best, one can decide which he likes best, and then decide how to weigh the principle priorities in order to favor that preference. It's ridiculous. That's not positive. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 19:27, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
To be clear, I'm talking about determining the undisambiguated title of all articles - where disambiguation is required additional rules (special conventions) are often required beyond the general principles/criteria. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 20:14, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
And I made no statement about flexibility in WP rules in general, or what purpose that serves. I was speaking specifically about rules having to do with selecting titles. In the specific context of title selection, flexibility in the rules serves no purpose other than to facilitate the rationalization of JDLI arguments. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 17:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
And there was no consensus to keep or change the guidelines; no consensus favored the status quo. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 18:26, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
If B2C is hatting proposals that he says don't have consensus support, why is he objecting the closing the RFC, which clearly is nowhere close to consensus support itself? Dicklyon ( talk) 07:55, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
Interesting. You say you hatted them because you thought they diverted attention from the RfC proposal. Yet you have now opened these new sections:
According to you, this RfC isn't about US place names. Yet that's pretty much all you talk about. The wording of the RfC and the subsequent discussion definitely shows that the focus is on US place names. And that was already discussed extensively. Omnedon ( talk) 23:33, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
This discussion is not productive. The previous RfC was closed after a huge amount of discussion among a lot of editors, and in the end we kept the current convention for United States places. Yet here we are again, much too soon, re-hashing it. Let's just stop. Omnedon ( talk) 03:48, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
That said, it's certainly true that some many editors (
[23]
[24]
[25]
[26]
[27]
[28]
[29]
[30]
[31], etc.) have recently expressed concern that the current debate unnecessarily or inappropriately repeats earlier recent debates, including an RfC closed with a clear determination to retain the existing USPLACES convention. I don't consider it madness to voice concern over such repetition, nor madness to wish to avoid it;
WP:CONSENSUS itself
cautions against such repetition, calling it disruptive and damaging. I strongly agree that that's so, and feel we've reached that point here.
╠╣uw [
talk
20:41, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I apologise if this has been discussed before; I found a discussion way back in WT:NCGN/Archive 1 of whether "alphabetic order" meant the languages should be ordered (Finnish: B, Swedish: A) or the terms should (Swedish: A, Finnish: B), and I see the former was decided upon. But if there's been a discussion of this, I missed it:
WP:NCGN says "Other relevant language names may appear in alphabetic order of their respective languages — i.e., (Finnish: Suomenlahti; Russian: Финский залив, Finskiy zaliv; Swedish: Finska viken; Estonian: Soome laht)." Am I missing something, or is that example of "alphabetic order" not in alphabetic order? Wouldn't alphabetical order be "Estonian: Soome laht; Finnish: Suomenlahti; Russian: Финский залив, Finskiy zaliv; Swedish: Finska viken" (by language name; or "Swedish: Finska viken; Russian: Финский залив, Finskiy zaliv; Estonian: Soome laht; Finnish: Suomenlahti" by term)? Should the example be reordered? Or if it is corrct as-is, can it be clarified? -sche ( talk) 20:44, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
I recently found a curiosity when scanning through the activity feed that wasn't covered by this guideline. Apparently, in Andika County, Khuzestan Province, Iran, there are two villages named Hoseynabad. One is titled Hoseynabad (32°10′ N 49°21′ E), Andika, the other Hoseynabad (32°14′ N 49°25′ E), Andika. I propose an addition to the guideline that states:
Let me know what you think. -- Veggies ( talk) 23:35, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
One article might be a problem... The Infobox settlement
template seems to not work for two boxes on one page. What a pain. There is not even enough information in source (actually, there is virtually none) to establish which is the older/original. Maybe have one combined infobox? --
Born2cycle (
talk)
01:15, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Hi everyone. I propose that the common naming convention for places across the world be changed. It has already been done for Canadian places at WP:CAN, but for other countries, the common naming consensus should be adjusted to remove the state, province, island name from the end if possible, because it is an unnecessary disambiguation, unless it is not a primary term. At WP:USPLACE, it states only specific non-notable communities in a Manual of Style guidebook show have no state names at the ending of the title, such as Seattle. However, other destinations, like Tacoma, Washington, should be allowed to be renamed to Tacoma in this case, as it is the primary topic. In any case, I do not understand why Canada would obtain an exception to this rule. TBr and ley ( what's up) 17:01, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
Some might complain that this makes the titles unpredictable. Again, this has proven not to be problematic in any country that already follows this convention, and the lack of predictability is actually a good thing. In every case where the title must be known, it should be actually checked (which, let's face it, is no big deal). Having a naming convention that may or may not call for disambiguation in each individual case makes it much more likely that people will do the checking that they should, thus avoiding a variety of problems (See User:Born2cycle/FAQ#What problems are caused by naming conventions that apply even when disambiguation is not required? and User:Born2cycle/FAQ#Reader_benefit). -- Born2cycle ( talk) 18:09, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
This was discussed at length quite recently on this very page, with clear consensus to keep the current convention. Let's move on. Jonathunder ( talk) 04:43, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
But go to www.britannica.com and type in "mittenwald" slowly. By the time you get to "mitte", "Mittenwald (Germany)" appears among the prompts. That's where you need it! (Not at the article; that's arranged differently. By the time you get there, you have been informed that Mittenwald is in Germany so you don't need it in the heading.) Try also a raw unformatted Google search on mittenwald britannica; see the helpful precision there also.
While looking at the support/oppose !vote count summary is no substitute for reading, evaluating and weighing the arguments associated with each !vote, it can give us an idea of whether the status quo or proposal to change has consensus support.
I will add that, in general, when a long-standing status quo in a given situation repeatedly fails to garner consensus support, even though a proposal to change may even appear to have less support in terms of !vote counting, because of the natural human bias towards opposing change, if the proposal is well supported by policy and conventions, and opposed mostly by WP:JDLI arguments, the change is likely to gain support and even strong consensus support if it is adopted. I urge the closing admin to take this under advisement when evaluating the comments and arguments above, especially in the context of how long the exceptions to disambiguate only when necessary in place names have been controversial.
The lists below are intended to be updated accordingly, by anyone as appropriate, as more participate. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 20:09, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Support:
Oppose:
You are entirely incorrect, B2C, in stating that the change is mostly opposed by JDLI arguments. Once again you brush aside the many reasoned arguments made for keeping the current convention. You also seem to be suggesting that the change should be made even though the majority oppose it, so that the change can then gain support. The change cannot be made without a consensus to do so, and that does not exist. Omnedon ( talk) 20:18, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I remind you that consensus is not determined by counting !votes, but by evaluating the strength of the arguments presented. So, yes, sometimes consensus is contrary to the majority of those participating in a given discussion. It's rare, but I do believe that this is one of those situations. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 20:33, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
On the other hand, all of the nine supporters so far have given reasons based in policy and/or convention (e.g disambiguate only if necessary) as basis for their positions. The proposer and I have both given extensive arguments supporting the proposal, and no one opposing has addressed any of the points made, much less refuted these arguments.
If it was closed today, I don't see how an evaluation of the arguments could result in anything other than finding consensus favoring the proposal. Do you? -- Born2cycle ( talk) 23:43, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Thank you to Jayron32 ( talk · contribs) for supporting his oppose !vote above with an actual relevant argument. Jayron writes:
it is very common in the U.S. to consider the name of the state to be an intergral part of the place name much as a person's surname is an integral part of their name.
While it is true that someone from Nashville is likely to answer the question "Where are you from?" with "Nashville, Tennessee", that's not a very good question to ask to ascertain the name of the city one is from. The better, more direct, question, of course, is: "What is the name of the city you are from?" Try it. Ask people that question. What you'll get is answers of the form, "Nashville", without adding the state.
Further, in comparing this situation to names for people (the "Bill Clinton" example is often used), it must be pointed out that both "Bill" and "Clinton" are used as names of the same person. But nobody refers to Nashville as Tennessee; Tennessee (alone) is not the name of the city in any context, while Clinton is the name of the person in many contexts. So these are really incomparable examples.
The name of a city is the name of the city. Yes, for context when necessary we often add the state, but that doesn't make it part of the name, much less an integral part of the name. In the case of "Nashville, Tennessee", Tennessee is of course simply the name of the state that the city named Nashville is in.
In fact, to add the state to the article's title for any reason other than necessary disambiguation conveys incorrect information: that the state is part of the name of subject of that article. Why deliberately and unnecessarily misinform our readers like this? -- Born2cycle ( talk) 21:23, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't think there is any bad faith here. People are just not realizing this effect, as is made evident by claims that the state is integral to the name of the city. That's just plainly incorrect.
Whether readers benefit from having the state in the title is a separate question not relevant to the subject of this subsection. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 21:35, 25 January 2013 (UTC) Updated. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 21:38, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
Once one realizes that the state is not part of the name of the city, then any misinforming in terms of suggesting the state is part of the name of the city that stems from having it unnecessarily in the title is deliberate. Now, one might argue that that misinformation is relatively minor compared to some claimed "useful" benefit of having the state in the title, but it's still misinformation regarding the name of the city, and deliberate. That doesn't mean bad faith, necessarily. It could be perceived as a good faith trade-off. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 23:47, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
B2C: To argue against City, State on the grounds that including the state "misleads" and "misinforms" readers is really reaching.
For one thing, it seemingly assumes that readers use Wikipedia article titles specifically to determine whether the formal name of a community is either City or City, State, but I see nothing to suggest that's how readers operate or indeed that they would even care about the intricacies of what we're presently debating.
For another, I see nothing to suggest that "article title" is synonymous with "name"; in fact, a lead sentence in WP:TITLE says, "the title may simply be the name (or a name) of the subject of the article, or it may be a description of the topic." Further, it says that "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's 'official' name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources." A quick survey of the sources cited in articles for cities in my area shows City, State used very frequently, in reliable sources ranging from Census resources [5] [6] to the communities' own websites [7] [8]... which of course also calls into question the very suggestion that the state is not part of the city's name. ╠╣uw [ talk 12:05, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
If you don't see that WP:COMMONNAME indicates that titles should reflect names when reasonably possible, I don't know how to help you, except to suggest that you click repeatedly on SPECIAL:RANDOM to see how that convention is practically universal on WP, especially if you ignore titles of articles about topics that don't have names (and thus have descriptive titles).
WP:TITLE says "it prefers the name that is most frequently used". While city, state may be frequently used to refer to a given state, it's not a name of the city, so that's irrelevant. Though specifying the state name after the city name, separated by a comma, is common practice (no one denies this), the names of the city and the state are never-the-less distinct. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 15:54, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
The rest is being covered in our discussion at #Which is more concise? "City" or "City, State"?, so I won't repeat here. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 14:32, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Why do you guys keep repeating the undisputed fact that RS commonly use city, state? RS also commonly use just city. The two facts cancel each other in terms of determining which form is preferred. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 16:06, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
It has been argued that having state in the title benefits readers. For example:
it seems ridiculous to have an article called Oodnadatta, when most of the world has no idea that it is a town, let alone a town in the state of South Australia. Why not Oodnadatta, South Australia? A little long, but so the hell what? What benefit is that loss of precision to anyone? How, in a worldwide encyclopedia, can such sheer Oodnadattic or South Australian chauvinism gain such traction? It bespeaks a certain insecurity, perhaps. "Oodnadatta is so notable, and so famous, that everyone knows it's in South Australia. And if they don't, they should!"
The argument completely and conveniently ignores the fact that titles are supposed to be recognizable to those familiar with the article's topic, not necessarily to those who are unfamiliar with the topic. There is absolutely no implication of expected widespread notability of the name in the reasons for doing this.
I think we can all agree that "most of the world has no idea that [Oodnadatta] is a town, let alone a town in the state of South Australia." What's entirely unclear, at least to me, is why that undisputed fact is a reason to put "South Australia" in the title of the article. I mean, most of the world also has no idea that (clicks on SPECIAL:RANDOM a few times) Tony Henderson is former Newcastle footballer, that Theispas was the Araratian weather-god, that Pârâul Arsurilor is a Romanian river, or that Take Me to Town is a 1953 film, but these facts are not reasons to add that respective information to each of these article titles. Why? Because we understand that people seeing these titles are either looking for them (and thus already have an understanding of what they are), or are seeing them in a context where what they are is clear from that context (like a link on a dab page or in another article). The only exception to this is possibly in a category list, but even there the category itself of course tells you what category it's in. For example, Oodnadatta is listed in Category:Towns_in_South_Australia.
So, how exactly do readers benefit from having states in titles? What readers in what contexts? And why should the undisputed fact that most of the world has no idea what these places are a reason to add information to their titles? -- Born2cycle ( talk) 00:10, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Vegas, a direct harm to readers of including the state in the title unnecessarily is misinforming them about the name of the topic - it incorrectly suggests the state is an integral part of the city's name. The section above is about that. Another harm is indirect, created by loss of time and energy due to editors spending years and years debating an issue that remains unresolved ultimately because of an inconsistency in how we name US places from most other articles, including most other articles about places. The harm to readers comes from the loss of presumed improvements that don't happen because of these unresolved issues and resulting debates. Maybe these don't add up to big harms, and you might even think they're "worth it", but against what? That is, what is the benefit to the readers... hence the original question to this subsection.
So, in what specific context is a reader actually helped by a more informative title? When, specifically, does a reader have to open an article to figure out what the article is about? Walk us through it. Give us some specific examples. I mean, it's not like readers encounter pages that are entirely blank except for a link to Oodnadatta. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 01:05, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
One of the criteria for choosing titles is concision, for which "brief", "short" and "terse" are all synonyms. For any city with a unique name or which is the primary topic for its name, it's should be plainly clear that "city" is more concise than "City, State". All other factors held equal, the more concise title should be preferred. This is relevant because the other criteria doesn't clearly favor the "City, State" form. That is, neither is more recognizable (to those who are familiar with the city), neither is clearly more natural, both are equally precise, and the shorter form is consistent with how most other city articles are titled. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 16:23, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Anyway, I explained below why it's important that we use this "idiosyncratic" interpretation. I understand you disagree, but don't understand why. An explanation, that addresses the points/explanation I gave, would be helpful. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 08:00, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Naturalness says: "Titles are those that readers are likely to look for or search with as well as those that editors naturally use to link from other articles. Such titles usually convey what the subject is actually called in English."
Now, are readers searching for Nashville more "likely to look for or search with" Nashville, or Nashville, Tennessee? Which one, if either, better conveys what Nashville is actually called in English?
Just above, at the start of this subsection, I even stipulated neither is clearly more natural, but you're going to tell me that the longer version answers these questions better? Seriously.
As for consistency, it says: "Titles follow the same pattern as those of similar articles."
There can be no denying that most other articles about cities use just the city name for the title, when it's available. One can also argue that US cities in particular have so many ambiguous names, that most require including the state in their titles for disambiguation, thus the pattern most of them must follow is city, state, and so even those with unique names should also follow this pattern. Which of these two points is more compelling is something of a coin toss, hence the conclusion that consistency doesn't clearly favor either.
It's true that consistency also references specific guidelines, like this one ( WP:PLACE), but since exactly what this one should say is what it is at issue here, it would be circular reasoning to rely on what this guideline says in this discussion. However, about guidelines like this consistency does give us this applicable guidance: "ideally indicate titles that are in accordance with the principles above". And that is essentially what is driving this RfC's proposal: making WP:PLACE better indicate titles that are in accordance with the other principles, including conciseness. This is why the question in the heading of this subsection is what it is, and why I've been focussed on it so much with respect to WP:PLACE for years. We should all be able to recognize that for choosing between region-qualified and region-unqualified place names the other principles do not clearly indicate either the shorter or longer form, but conciseness does, of course.
Now, is anyone going to actually address what I just said, or will this be followed with more diversionary filibustering? -- Born2cycle ( talk) 12:38, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Regarding naturalness, for instance: WP:TITLE does indeed say that titles should convey what the subject is actually called. How do we determine what a subject is actually called? We check reliable sources. How are US places frequently called in reliable sources? Placename, State. We've already been through this.
Regarding "what readers are likely to look for or search with", I don't see the evidence that a reader searching for a specific US place will be unlikely to consider the state, particularly given that the common usage (as indicated by reliable sources) is often for the state to be included.
Regarding consistency of titles, you're asserting that it's "something of a coin toss" as to which method is more consistent. Not so. Following Place, State produces a more consistent result for the titling of US places that does a convention that would name many as Place and many as Place, State.
Regarding conciseness, that is indeed one of the goals. I also know that "you've been focussed on it ... for years." (Believe me, we all know.) It is, however, one goal out of several, and Wikipedia's guideline asserts that it's appropriate to consider all of those goals and to sometimes favor or more over the others. This is done through discussion, which we've had at great length, and which has not led to exceptionless minimum disambiguation becoming the favored convention in this case. ╠╣uw [ talk 13:25, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Regarding your "consistency" argument, you repeat, in a reworded form, what I just said. I wrote: "...thus the pattern most of them must follow is city, state, and so even those with unique names should also follow this pattern". You wrote: "Following Place, State produces a more consistent result". Yes, that's ONE of the consistency arguments. The OTHER is "most other articles about cities use just the city name for the title", so using just the city name, when possible, produces a more consistent result. The difference here is whether the OTHER arguments, not just your own, are recognized, and a wash is seen as the coin toss it is.
If one doesn't ignore all of the discussion that has occurred here and before, especially the arguments made by the other side, it should be clear that all of the WP:CRITERIA principles other than conciseness do not clearly favor either the region-qualified or the region-unqualified form of the place name over the other. That's why conciseness is especially weighty to this proposal. Conciseness is the only WP:CRITERIA principle that clearly favors one of the forms; and of course it favors the more concise form. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 13:50, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
You worry that that means we "never get anywhere", but I'm not sure where you think we're supposed to be getting. We're simply discussing and commenting on matters relevant to the proposal at hand to see if consensus emerges. Such consensus is good to seek through constructive discussion, but if a proposal does not gain consensus support, that is an acceptable result, and shouldn't necessarily be seen as a failure nor as an invitation to rehash.
As to your specific points: the common usage of City, State in reliable sources is relevant to the question of naturalness. No one is asserting that every source uses that form in every case; certainly some do not. One can omit a placename's state in context just as one can omit a person's surname in context. I understand that that is something we disagree about as well, and have already discussed repeatedly before, so it seems unnecessary to repeat that debate again here.
As to your statement, "the difference here is whether the OTHER arguments, not just your own, are recognized": I don't say other arguments aren't recognized. All points should be considered and weighed through discussion by the community, as the many involved editors in this forum have done, are doing, and will continue to do. You feel that some of the arguments are "a wash". That's fine. Others (myself among them) disagree, and have said why. Please respect that. ╠╣uw [ talk 19:37, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
I missed where you or anyone else explained why having basically equal arguments favoring one or the other form based on a given criterion doesn't create "a wash" with respect to that criterion. What I've seen is the asserting of the argument favoring the longer form, and ignoring or dismissing (at least not acknowledging) the similar argument favoring the shorter form, and then conveniently concluding in favor of the longer form. In fact, this is exactly what Omnedon just did above:
United States place names are so often re-used from state to state that a majority of articles must have the state included. So within the scope of United States places, it is consistent to use that for the remaining titles; and that is not a "wash" or a "coin toss".
Now, let's look at naturalness, and these two relevant undisputed points:
As for what you quote, the assertion I see being made is that it's more consistent to use the longer form for all US places since the longer form under either convention would have to be used for most of those places anyway. This seems reasonable. Your complaint with the quote seems to be that the editor doesn't in his statement specifically address or refute your argument for the shorter form (or your assertion that it's a wash), which is an odd complaint. Other editors are here to comment on this RfC, and shouldn't face hectoring charges of being "totally unreasonable" if they don't specifically refute to your satisfaction a point that you yourself make.
As for your specific question, we've already discussed it. Place, State is frequently used by reliable sources ranging from the Census Bureau to official municipal websites, and while Place by itself is indeed also used, such use tends to be in cases where state is already established by context (just as one might simply say "Clinton" when it's established that one is speaking about "Bill Clinton".) On the subject of naturalness, WP:TITLE asserts that a natural title is one that readers are "likely to look for or search with"; given that the context necessary to omit the name of the state cannot assumed to be present in a world-wide encyclopedia (as well as for other reasons, such as the frequently ambiguous and non-unique nature of US place names), it's reasonable to consider that the user will indeed be likely to use the state.
You may disagree with that, and that's fine. I'm not demanding you agree, nor am I demanding that you refute me; I'm simply contributing my view and my reasons for it. However, I'd ask that you please stop accusing others of taking opposing positions "without reason" when such reasons (even if you disagree with them) have indeed been clearly stated many times. ╠╣uw [ talk 00:13, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
This is not the case for concision (Omnedon's novel argument notwithstanding), and why it's so significant here. Concision clearly favors the shorter form. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 01:37, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Omnedon, you have introduced a new argument. Thank you. I don't recall anyone ever arguing that "city, state" is more concise than "city" (or, more generally that XY is more concise than X for any string Y when X uniquely refers to the topic in question, or that topic is recognized to be primary for X). But based on a cherry-picking interpretation of a dictionary definition of "concise", it's certainly valid. The problem with it, of course, is that there is no precedent, so far as I know, for using this interpretation of concision in article title determination, certainly none accepted by consensus. If I'm mistaken and there is such consensus-backed precedent for this interpretation, I, for one, would be very appreciative if you brought it to our attention. But I suggest if we accepted this interpretation of concision, a great many titles, long stable, would be put into question.
As to your other points, I think this discussion will remain more coherent if we take them up in separate sections as they're not specifically about the principle question this section is about; the question about which form is more concise. While the issue about whether the arguments with respect to other criteria are a wash or not are relevant here, because that's the basis for my claim about why concision is so weighty on this issue, it's really tangential to the main point. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 20:30, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Besides, per your reasoning, City, State, Country is even more "concise" than "City, State", since "City, State, Country" is more informative than "City, State". And, there's no reason why this reasoning should not apply to titles of articles about places outside of the US. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 03:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Born2Cycle: You've been more than clear what your views are: you've expressed them at frankly remarkable length and have gotten feedback on them. However, several editors are now expressing the concern that it's grown to the point of a filibuster. Please consider taking a breather. ╠╣uw [ talk 11:40, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
The recognizability criterion states:
The bold emphasis is mine. I submit that to someone familiar with a given city, the city will be just as recognizable from the name alone as it is from the name qualified with the region it is in. Therefore, the recognizability criterion does not favor either form; it's a wash. For example, to someone who remembers driving through McLouth (and, years later, might be looking it up on WP), McLouth is just as recognizabile as is McLouth, Kansas. Neither form is favored by this criterion.
Above, Omnedon offered the following argument that it's not a wash, that the recognizability criterion favors the region-qualified form, at least for US cities:
The question of recognizability raises a point about familiarity. WP:TITLE says, "Titles are names or descriptions of the topic that are recognizable to someone familiar with (though not necessarily expert in) the topic." When we speak of places in the United States, some are recognizable the world over -- like Chicago. But many would be unfamiliar to the vast majority of the population. Removing the state from a title like "McLouth, Kansas" means that only someone who already knew about this town would find it recognizable as such, and very few people in the United States would know about it. Yet the title "McLouth, Kansas" is quickly and easily recognizable as a populated place in the state of Kansas -- something that most United States readers would instantly know without being an expert. So this also is not a "wash" or a "coin toss".
This argument must be rejected for at least the following reasons.
And if we don't ignore the crucial qualification, then the recognizability criterion does not favor either form; titles using either form are equally recognizable to someone familiar with (though not necessarily expert in) the topic. It's a wash. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 22:16, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
I confess I don't understand what you're getting at here:
You assume that "the topic" is the specific place in question, such as "McLouth", and very few people in the United States are likely ever to have heard of it. But "the topic" may also be broader: places in the United States, or in Kansas.
Why on earth should this discussion continue on your talk page? This is a community discussion which has been going on here. It should stay here. What is your goal in moving it elsewhere? The focus is on article titles for places in the United States. That's what we're dealing with, in practice -- here. But the discussion is increasingly difficult anyway. We explain why it not a "wash" and you continue to assert that it is. I provide a definition of "concise" and you call it cherry-picking. You have your views on this. We have ours. Omnedon ( talk) 01:29, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
The topic of an article is what the article is about regardless of its title, so of course the topic of McLouth "must be the specific town and nothing else". The topic is "the specific town and nothing else" regardless of whether its title is McLouth, McLouth, Kansas, McLouth, Kansas, United States, City of McLouth, or anything else. Changing the title does not affect the WP:SCOPE of the topic.
I agree this proposal is ostensibly about WP:PLACE and in practice it mostly (but not only) affects WP:USPLACE, but there are consequences that potentially affect all other article titles. This is because in our discussions we present arguments, as we should, based on what WP:AT says and means, and WP:AT governs how all articles are titled, not just USPLACE.
We all know that WP does not have hard and fast rules. Not only is there WP:IAR, a pillar, but our rules, like our articles, are constantly subject to the pressures of evolution. One of the ways rules change is when it is observed that they do not accurately reflect practice.
Despite all that, our titles, and the rules governing them, are remarkably stable. Well over 99% of our titles are very stable - have not changed in years and will probably not ever change - primarily because most topics have a single obvious name, and our practice is to use that name, and nothing more, as the article's title. The primary exceptions to this occur when a topic has no single obvious name, or when the name has multiple uses. But the primary practice, to use just the single obvious name when possible, is reflected at WP:AT, primarily in the recognizability and conciseness criteria. This is why the vast majority of our titles are as stable as they are.
But over the last few years there have been efforts to change this. In numerous RM discussions, it has been argued that titles of various articles need to be more descriptive to help the reader. In policy discussions it has been argued that our goal for recognizability should be expanded from only those who are familiar with a topic, to all readers, and that concision should be understood to prefer longer titles when they are more informative. Of course, the intent of all these efforts is not to destabilize our titles, but that would be the unintended consequence, were they to succeed.
The main reason we enjoy the extraordinary stability in well over 99% of our article titles is because there are no policy grounds, given a certain understanding and interpretation of the criteria at WP:AT, to change them. To understand where I'm coming from, you really have to appreciate this. Key to this understanding and appreciation is that the scope of recognizability is limited to "those familiar with the topic" - that there is no goal to make titles recognizable to anyone who is not familiar with the respective topics. Equally critical is that concision means we don't add information to our titles to make them more informative than is necessary for meeting the recognizability criteria (given its limited scope).
To illustrate what I mean, consider the following list of five randomly selected titles. On the left are current titles, stable because of the interpretation of recognizability and conciseness I just explained; right of each arrow are titles that could be reasonably justified if, for example, your interpretation of conciseness were to be accepted, adopted, and applied.
If we interpret recognizability or conciseness in any way that makes McLouth, Kansas more recognizable or more concise than McLouth, then we are accepting interpretations that will destabilize the entire title space on WP. On the other hand, if we recognize that McLouth meets recognizability just as well as McLouth, Kansas (because the scope is explicitly limited "to those familiar"), and that McLouth meets conciseness better than McLouth, Kansas, then we are interpreting these criteria in the manner that gives us the title stability we currently enjoy. That's what is ultimately at stake here, and why I feel so strongly about it. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 17:54, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
A slippery slope argument is not necessarily a fallacy.
I recognize that this set of articles has been this way for a long time, and is stable. That doesn't mean that these titles are consistent with the practice and policy that gives us overall stability. It could be an anomaly, based on JDLI preference (albeit popular JDLI preference) rather than on policy, which I believe it is.
My ultimate concern is overall title stability. I believe overall title stability is achieved with application of title policy interpreted consistently in practice. My concern here is that PLACE guidelines that are inconsistent with title criteria contribute to a loose or novel interpretation of the criteria that makes us more vulnerable to an overall title system destabilization.
To the point, I have these questions... if "McLouth, Kansas" is "more concise" than "McLouth", then isn't Marriotts Ridge High School, Marriottsville, Maryland "more concise" (more informative, and no more less brief than "McLouth, Kansas" is less brief than "McLouth") than Marriotts Ridge High School? If so, then how isn't Donji Mosti, Croatia also more concise than Donji Mosti? In either case, how do you draw the distinction?
How you draw the distinction is key because currently the line is drawn by considering whether more information is needed for disambiguation. If the extra information is not needed for disambiguation, then it's not included in the title. It's not a line defined crystal clearly, but it's pretty close, and, in practice, it works remarkably well. If your policy-based defense of US Place relies on an interpretation of the consistency criterion that crosses this line, then you need to explain what the new line is, and how it is drawn. Or, you need to come up with a new policy based argument, or concede that you don't have one. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 19:30, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
TBrandley: This RfC would affect US placename convention, which (as other editors rightly point out) was already the subject of a very recent and very lengthy RfC – one which closed as "maintain status quo". I see no reason to reopen the question again so soon. I would strongly recommend either:
Thanks ╠╣uw [ talk 17:30, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
B2C, as far as I can see, you want one thing regarding this issue: no "unnecessary disambiguation" in titles, ever. No compromise. There are reasons why many of us do not feel this is best for the encyclopedia or its users. They've been stated again and again. You say, "...the only way the problem here -- place name titles inconsistent with disambiguate only when necessary -- is ever going to be resolved, ..." So are you saying that you will never accept any other solution? If so, how are we supposed to discuss this and try to reach compromise? There are other solutions. One is to acknowledge that the principle you support isn't the only principle involved in article titles, that the "one size fits all" approach may simply not work in such a diverse environment, and that Wikipedia, like the world, is more complicated than that. Omnedon ( talk) 23:08, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
I didn't start this proposal. I'm just the messenger. I'm just pointing out that as long titles remain unnnecessarily disambiguated, they will remain an obvious problem for many. You may not like that. You may not like me pointing it out. Sorry. But don't blame me for it. That's just the way it is, and you, I nor anyone else has the power or ability to change that. What we can change is the titles so that they're not so obviously inconsistent and problematic. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 23:34, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
It's unresolved because this convention remains inconsistent with other conventions and this inconsistency will continue to cause people like Roman Spinner [18], Marcus Qwertyus [19], Unreal7 [20], Kauffner (RFC above), TBrandley (this RFC) and countless others to seek to have it rectified via guideline or one article at a time, year after year, until it is resolved. It's the actions of all these people, not my words, that establishes the lack of resolution here. If they didn't take those actions, then we would have nothing to talk about.
Conversely, once the issue is resolved -- the convention is changed to make all place names disambiguated only when necessary, exactly as has been proposed here -- peace and tranquility will ensue. That is, it will be resolved, finally. Just as it has been resolved for Canada and Australia place names. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 19:13, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
While it's true that theoretically "peace and tranquility" could ensue if we could force everyone who brings up RM requests and RFCs contrary to this convention to stop, but last I checked we have no such power. The same argument was made, for years, at Yogurt. And my response to that here is the same: We have a fundamental problem of inconsistency with other rules/articles that gives basis to those who favor change. If that change occurs, then the result will be consistent with how we do things, and so nobody will have basis to justify the change in reverse. And, so, peace and tranquility will actually ensue. I was right about that at Yogurt, and I'm confident I'm right about that here too, because fundamentally it's the same problem, with the same solution. It is that simple. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 23:20, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
So let's reword it (after all, the proposal as made doesn't make any sense (striking as unduly harsh) and reflects an incorrect understanding of the actual situation). How about this: RfC to affirm that the names of cities should be listed in the most concise way, without adding unnecessary disambiguation, except when a different rule has been formally agreed to for a particular country. (I put it that way because I don't know if there are other countries that have stated a preference to add the state/province/départment to the city name, or if it is just the U.S.) --
MelanieN (
talk)
19:57, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Anyway, your assumption that "the "unnecessary disambiguation" has already been removed from countries other than the U.S." is incorrect. The examples provided in the proposal are obviously meant to be illustrative. It's not unreasonable to assume that people should be able to grasp the concept from just one example. But if you need another...
Similarly, the only way the problem here -- place name titles inconsistent with disambiguate only when necessary -- is ever going to be resolved, is by making all the place name titles consistent with disambiguate only when necessary. Don't blame the messenger. That's not a threat. It's a simple prediction based on facts and years of observation. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 22:17, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
B2C, you seem to assume bad faith on the part of those that disagree with you. You speak of pointing out flaws in arguments, insanity, inconsistency, silliness, little minds, pointless discussion, et cetera. You continue to communicate, in various ways, that you will not stop until you get the result you want, and that you have no respect for any opposing view. The previous RfC discussion produced a strong majority result, but you say there was no resolution. All this makes it difficult to have a productive discussion, when it seems so clear that you will not compromise. There is another way: accept that article naming is more complicated than you make it seem. Omnedon ( talk) 20:27, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
The creation of this RFC/proposal, before I commented on it, along with various similar actions by others, indicates a lack of resolution regarding this issue, not my words.
You claim, There is another way: accept that article naming is more complicated than you make it seem. How can I accept something that none of the evidence supports, and all of the evidence contradicts? I've seen this and similar "beating a dead horse" arguments made time after time after time, always in defense of some status quo, and time after time after time, it's eventually proven wrong.
Article naming does not have to be complicated. We can have clear and simple rules that lead to obvious non-controversial titles. Of course there will always be a few difficult individual cases here and there, but there is no justification for creating an unnatural and inherent conflict by having a rule that treats a whole category of titles differently from all others. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 21:33, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Your argument that using the city, state convention is following usage in RS might sound reasonable at first, but it's actually clearly wrong.
For any given city, it's true that both "cityname" alone and "cityname, statename" are commonly used to refer to the city in reliable sources, but in contexts where the location of the city is known the statename is rarely included, indicating sources include statename as information, not as part of the name. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 23:11, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
First, please stop referring to what you believe I like or dislike. Personal likes/dislikes, including mine, whatever they may be, are irrelevant here, of course.
Now, clarifying an otherwise ambiguous situation with specific conventions in a way that does not contradict general conventions shared by most other articles is one thing, and not a problem. Establishing specific conventions that are contrary to general conventions shared by most other articles is quite another, and usually creates problems. Doing so does not necessarily create problems, but the evidence in this case regarding how problematic this convention is, years and years of controversy involving hundreds of editors on this page and countless talk pages of US city articles, is overwhelming. Until the root problem is identified and rectified, that won't change. That's not a threat, it's an educated prediction based on years of reams of data.
Also, Wikipedia:Other stuff exists. Just because there are other problematic conventions that contradict basic titling principles like disambiguate only when necessary is not an excuse to not solve that problem elsewhere, like here. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 23:03, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
As an aside, we would be a lot better off if the priorities were completely worked out and clearly stated for consistent/objective application. It would end most RM debates which are usually about a reasonable title and a reasonable alternative, and are dominated by JDLI arguments based on each person prioritizing the principles in a manner that happens to favor his or her personal preference.
Resolving the underlying reasons for having these never-ending disagreements is what is at stake here. And years and years of having different experienced editors repeatedly bring up the same objections to a given situation is about the strongest evidence there can be in favor of needing a change. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 18:48, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
The flexibility, which dilutes if not defeats the value of the principles, is negative, not positive. The result is that in any given situation in deciding between titles A and B, instead of looking at the principles to decide which is best, one can decide which he likes best, and then decide how to weigh the principle priorities in order to favor that preference. It's ridiculous. That's not positive. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 19:27, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
To be clear, I'm talking about determining the undisambiguated title of all articles - where disambiguation is required additional rules (special conventions) are often required beyond the general principles/criteria. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 20:14, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
And I made no statement about flexibility in WP rules in general, or what purpose that serves. I was speaking specifically about rules having to do with selecting titles. In the specific context of title selection, flexibility in the rules serves no purpose other than to facilitate the rationalization of JDLI arguments. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 17:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
And there was no consensus to keep or change the guidelines; no consensus favored the status quo. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 18:26, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
If B2C is hatting proposals that he says don't have consensus support, why is he objecting the closing the RFC, which clearly is nowhere close to consensus support itself? Dicklyon ( talk) 07:55, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
Interesting. You say you hatted them because you thought they diverted attention from the RfC proposal. Yet you have now opened these new sections:
According to you, this RfC isn't about US place names. Yet that's pretty much all you talk about. The wording of the RfC and the subsequent discussion definitely shows that the focus is on US place names. And that was already discussed extensively. Omnedon ( talk) 23:33, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
This discussion is not productive. The previous RfC was closed after a huge amount of discussion among a lot of editors, and in the end we kept the current convention for United States places. Yet here we are again, much too soon, re-hashing it. Let's just stop. Omnedon ( talk) 03:48, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
That said, it's certainly true that some many editors (
[23]
[24]
[25]
[26]
[27]
[28]
[29]
[30]
[31], etc.) have recently expressed concern that the current debate unnecessarily or inappropriately repeats earlier recent debates, including an RfC closed with a clear determination to retain the existing USPLACES convention. I don't consider it madness to voice concern over such repetition, nor madness to wish to avoid it;
WP:CONSENSUS itself
cautions against such repetition, calling it disruptive and damaging. I strongly agree that that's so, and feel we've reached that point here.
╠╣uw [
talk
20:41, 26 January 2013 (UTC)