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This is to let people know that there is only a day or so left on a poll. The poll is an attempt to end years of argument about autoformatting which has also led to a dispute about date linking. Your votes are welcome at: Wikipedia:Date formatting and linking poll. Regards Lightmouse ( talk) 09:11, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}} Please add {{shortcut|WP:MOSBD}}
to the
Dates of birth and death section. This section is often referred to, and the shortcut would be convenient. The redirect at
WP:MOSBD has already been created.
MANdARAX •
XAЯAbИAM
21:18, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
I would like to make clear somewhere in the guideline that British date formatting can be either April 20 or 20 April. When writing a date using only numbers, Brits always write the day first (20/04/2009), but when using the word for a month, April 20 is acceptable, as is 20 April.
The reason I'd like to clarify this is that I often see British editors arrive to change from April 20 to 20 April, often with edit summaries that imply they think the MoS requires it. It's usually done inconsistently; and I've seen editors change image names that contain dates (by mistake when they're changing other things), so that the images are no longer visible. Cleaning up after it can be time-consuming. Even though the MoS makes clear that people shouldn't be imposing style changes on stable articles, this misunderstanding about dates seems very persistent.
Does anyone mind if I clarify it to emphasize that either format is acceptable — when the word for the month is used, and not just numbers — whether in a British-related article or anywhere else? I'm posting below a sample of British and Irish newspapers that use the month/day format on their front pages, and in their articles.
England:
Scotland:
Wales:
Northern Ireland:
Republic of Ireland:
SlimVirgin talk| contribs 15:10, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
For WP not to have adopted a single format (or language variant) is seriously unprofessional. Admittedly, WP is not "professional" in the true sense, but that should not stop us taking a serious look at our style guide. It is important to note, as SV points out, that each publication has only one definitive style of dates and one language variant. Being the most widely visited information site on the Internet, WP is one of the few sites where there is a notable absence of prevailing style policy. I don't think the [decentralisation] suggestion is the right way to go. Ohconfucius ( talk) 04:55, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
The best written English is almost always a reflection of the best spoken English (which is why Shakespeare, the 1611 Authorised/ King James Version of the Bible, and the Book of Common Prayer, all written to be to be spoken aloud, are still such powerful influences—even among non-Christians and dramaphobes—four hundred years after they were written, despite major changes in vocabulary and sentence structure.) And most of us don't say "April twenty" or "Twenty April"; we say "April twentieth" and "the twentieth of April", partly because "Twenty" is a cardinal number and "twentieth" is an ordinal (modifying the unspoken "day of"). And in ordinary speech, most of us (I think) use both forms, "April twentieth" and "the twentieth of April", almost every week, if not every day or every hour. At times, we can even use both forms in the same sentence. If the technical reasons related to date-autoformatting, and the managing-editor's concern for saving space, no longer apply, then there's no reason for Wikipedia to disallow April 20th and 20th April, either, especially when they add to the clarity, flow, or style of a sentence or paragraph. ("Lincoln was shot on the 14th of April, 1865, and died on the 15th.") A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds... ( Ralph Waldo Emerson) —— Shakescene ( talk) 06:51, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Keep it simple. And I certainly wouldn’t try to intertwine date formatting to the dialect of English some volunteer editor used for an article; that is a separate matter. I would propose we simply make the date format as natural as possible for the likely readership. Nothing more.
Allow me to illustrate my point via example: Articles not closely associated with American topics such as Italy, Austria, Basilica di Saccargia and Kilogram have a pronounced non-American readership. Regardless of the dialect of English used by the editor of that article, we should be thinking foremost about our readers. So in articles on general or European subjects (articles clearly not associated with the U.S.), we would simply use Euro-style dates.
Conversely, for articles on, or closely associated with American topics, such as Spokane River Centennial Trail; Coeur d'Alene, Idaho; American Revolution; and New York Yankees, they have a preponderance of American readers and the date format that is most natural for those readers is the American-style date.
It is an utterly trivial matter to simply use the date format that is most natural for the likely readership. I would propose this simple guideline:
For articles on, or strongly associated with, the following countries and territories: The United States, American Samoa, Guam, Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, U.S. Virgin Islands, Wake Island, Republic of the Marshall Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, and Republic of Palau; editors should use the U.S.-style date format (“February 2, 2008”), otherwise, editors should use the international date format (“2 February 2008”) in articles.
I couldn’t care less if some Italian editor somewhere happen to have used British-dialect English and Euro-style dates when he first expanded Boston Red Socks from a stub. All any editor should have to do, if they encountered a mix of date styles in that article is consider (for all of about one second) what the subject is about and then (quickly) settle on the format most appropriate for the subject matter. Simple. And, yes, there will be an occasional grey-area article, like Gulf war: is that “strongly associated with America?” I think editors can work in good faith to resolve these issues if or when they arise. Greg L ( talk) 19:39, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
In addition to Chris' remark (quite sound), Greg's proposal would require the use of April 20 on purely American articles. Of the eight samples he names, six do use it without any requirement here; one does not mention any day. This is what one would expect, without any rule, and shows we don't need one. Battle of Midway, however, uses 20 April consistently; this appears to be a recent development among the American military, but is not something we should (or can) suppress without wider discussion.
But not only does it work poorly for American articles, it would work very badly for
I support SV on this change it "to emphasize that either format is acceptable [in British articles] — when the word for the month is used, and not just numbers" with the usual proviso not to change from one majority usage to the other, without agreement on the talk page of the article. -- PBS ( talk) 22:19, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Comment: SlimVirgin requested (through a note on my talk page) for the "Dates" section to be unprotected for editing. However, there does not appear to be any sort of consensus developing yet regarding changes to date formats, especially given the long-standing nature of the current guideline. Is there actually something ready for updating the MoS? Otherwise, I am inclined to leave the section protected for now. -- Ckatz chat spy 18:05, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
<--Two things. No, it's not normal that the guideline be locked on such a semi-permanent basis, but I don't see the point of changing it "to see if anyone objected" because we know what the status is; the issue could need an RfC to sort out. Ohconfucius ( talk) 10:53, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
All right, then (although I won't argue to remove edit-protection or to replace Talk-Consensus-Edit with Bold-Revert-Discuss for dates in this Manual), I'll be the one to advocate against required date-format consistency within an article, because it's just not necessary, it serves no function and its absence does little harm. I expect that dates within a single section of an article will often harmonise/harmonize naturally; but in normal writing, I occasionally use more than one format even within a single paragraph. Only when it breaks the flow, or makes comparisons or relations between dates difficult or jerky, should inconsistency be discouraged. An analogy would be the rule of thumb that usually one should avoid writing "five oranges and 23 grapes"; similarly one should generally avoid "proposed on March 17, passed on May 28th and signed on 5 June". Such faulty parallelisms in style usually work themselves out in the normal process of editing and self-editing; I see little reason that date formats need be a special exception. And anything reasonable that reduces the huge, unmanageable and intrusive Manual of Style to something easier for the average editor to learn, grasp and remember allows everyone to concentrate needed attention on genuine sources of ambiguity, obscurity, mistake or confusion. —— Shakescene ( talk) 07:01, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
All good stylebooks pick a date format and stick to it. Can anybody name one that doesn't? (By the way, if the person who used the word baloney above has an extra slice, I would like to have it to put between two halves of a biscuit/muffin for my lunch/supper.) Yours, GeorgeLouis ( talk) 07:13, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
"huge, unmanageable and intrusive Manual of Style". Schakescene, now we know you're a bedfellow of Anderson. He will stop at nothing to re-ignite his "let's dilute MoS" campaign, which has been going on for three years. If you resist, you're labelled a "bully" (only last week, I see) and "chief mess-maker", a personal attack by Anderson three days ago, above (any more and it will be a matter for ANI). And dragging in this concept of how poorly done by "the average editor" is by these pesky guidelines is the last, desperate resort of those who prefer that the site dispense with the authority, cohesion and readability of within-article consistency (and on other levels whole-site consistency).
"Average editors" do not write well and are likely to be pleased to have advice. My writing improved significantly after I regularly consulted MoS. On the dates, consistency within the main text is essential, and no, you never want to read a sentence that mixes them up, not just "generally". Equating grammatical choices such as the "Congress" example above with this concocted argument for editorial freedom over messing with date formats is nonsense. Tony (talk) 03:08, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Per WP:ENGVAR, (1) "The English Wikipedia has no preference for any major national variety of the language"; (2) "An article on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation uses the appropriate variety of English for that nation". Now, this article says to use commas every three positions in writing large numbers, e.g. 1,234,567. However, Indian English, the convention is to use two positions for higher than one thousand, e.g. 12,34,567. I see a contradiction here -- WP:ENGVAR suggests that the Indian format is acceptable, especially on Indian articles; WP:MOSNUM here suggests that it is not acceptable. This contradiction needs to be resolved. I would sughttp://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/button_math.pnggest, that it should be resolved by amending WP:MOSNUM to permit Indian number format when permitted by WP:ENGVAR. -- SJK ( talk) 05:39, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
I tend to agree with Anderson. Lakh and crore are not English so the number formatting based on them is not English either and would likely lead to confusion. JIMp talk· cont 11:24, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Many discussions on MOS pages revolve around questions of "should" vs. "must". It seems to me that unnecessary drama is introduced partly because we do not formally recognize these distinctions in the language of MOS documents, or in our discussions. For example, in the prior "April 20 v 20 April" discussion, I have the sense of broad common ground on the idea that uniformity of formats is generally a good thing, but there is divergence on whether exceptions are allowable (are they "jarring" or not?). In technical literature, the terms "may", "should" and "must" have strict meanings. Surely there are cases where it is valuable for a MOS document to provide style advice that does not constitute a hard and fast rule. Perhaps the following nit issue on date formatting is an example: If {{
OldStyleDate}}
is used in a biography infobox, is our guidance that all dates in the infobox use them? Should that have the status of "advice/suggestion/guidance" that contributors should use but may diverge from, or a style rule that must be used and that MOSNUM Cops should unleash their bots on? What I am suggesting here is that MOS formally employ the terms "should" and "must" (respectively) two distinguish between the two cases, and that proposals make explicit distinctions between the two. I propose the following 3 key words to be denoted in italics in MOS documents:
- J JMesserly ( talk) 20:26, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't like uniformity for its own sake, or the huge multiplication of over-precise rules, but there is another area where I think general norms are very much needed. That's where there's a possibility of unreadability for medical or technical reasons ( WP:ACCESS), or the possibility of confusion, error, obscurity or ambiguity for linguistic reasons. Often what is perfectly good (or even preferred) usage in ordinary writing or print presents some difficulty for sight-impaired or non-Anglophone readers. In fact I think this is the best justification for a Manual of Style. —— Shakescene ( talk) 22:14, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm beginning to feel more strongly that a smaller Manual of Style or Standard Wikipedia Format, limited to no more than 2 pages (as opposed to the present dozen or two-dozen separate pages), which can be easily read, learned, remembered and assimilated, should be segregated out from hints, suggestions and indications of the conventions and usage that are generally practised, preferred or found useful on Wikipedia. WP:Cheatsheet and WP:Accessibility are examples of the kind of thing I'm thinking of, but on a rather more comprehensive scale. Avoiding "9/6" because it's unclear whether it means September 6th or June 9th, indicating your calendar or thermometer when unclear, offering metric/customary/Imperial unit conversions whenever practical and observing the more-specific parts of WP:Accessibility would be examples of things (upon which we all agree) that should go into the smaller Manual. Other date formats, English/U.S. spelling (except for the microscopic fraction that presents genuine uncertainty), hyphenation, paragraphing, hectares vs km², internal consistency, parallel phrasing, etc. are the kinds of things that could go into a more general and discursive document ("Guide to Better Style" or "Common Wikipedia Usage") that could be broken into several different topic pages. —— Shakescene ( talk) 06:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
is a textbook example of WP:BEANS, and there are many others.) -- A. di M. (formerly Army1987) — Deeds, not words. 12:31, 29 April 2009 (UTC)Use discretion when it comes to using scientific and engineering notation. Not all values need to be written in it (e.g., do not write the house was 1.25×102 y old, but rather the house was 125 years old in 2008 or simply the house was built in 1883).
(unindent)Coincidently, I've started to write my own guide to writing ( User:Headbomb/Writing). The section [[User:Headbomb/Writing#..._when_improving_style] might be of relevance. Headbomb { ταλκ κοντριβς – WP Physics} 19:38, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Let's start tackling the issue. Unless someone objects in the next 24 hours, I'm going to replace:
- When using either scientific or engineering notation in articles, consistency is preferred (e.g., do not write A 2.23×102 m2 region covered by 234.0×106 grains of sand).
- Use discretion when it comes to using scientific and engineering notation. Not all values need to be written in it (e.g., do not write the house was 1.25×102 y old, but rather the house was 125 years old in 2008 or simply the house was built in 1883).
- Sometimes it is useful to compare values with the same power of 10 (often in tables) and scientific or engineering notation might not be appropriate.
with:
- It is preferred to avoid mixing scientific notation and engineering notation in the same article (e.g., do not write A 2.23×102 m2 region covered by 234.0×106 grains of sand).
- Sometimes it is useful to compare values with the same power of 10 (often in tables) and scientific or engineering notation might not be appropriate.
It is 270 bytes less; it doesn't solve the problem of the bloat in the MoS but it's a good start. -- A. di M. (formerly Army1987) — Deeds, not words. 09:20, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
¶ Let me clarify what I was proposing. I think the nearly-mandatory part, which could be (for working purposes here) be called a Book (or Page) of Rules which everyone here agrees should almost always be followed, could be confined to one or two pages (or if you prefer, articles) of some indeterminate length below 100 kB (if it's hard for some users to load, then it defeats part of its purpose).
Those are things we all agree on, the things that are most important (e.g. something that's understandable by a non-Anglophone or sight-impaired person, as opposed to conventions about paragraphing, spelling or capitalisation/capitalization), and the things that a new editor most needs to be able to learn, remember and use.
We can still argue about how mandatory, precatory, advisory or optional the other parts need to be. When I see two dozen separate pages/articles on everything from dates to flags, on the one hand, they're very useful as a guide to style or general conventions, but on the other, the collection considered as a whole seems absurd and unmanageable as a battery of enforceable rules.
I came to the MOS for guidance on whether something should be said to have "over 75,000" supporters or "more than 75,000" supporters. Which is appropriate for Wikipedia? Either I overlooked an applicable guideline or none yet exists. Thanks. Benccc ( talk) 20:03, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
I have attempted to set up a Music date task force in order to change instances of "present" to "onward" among other things in music related articles. Dark Prime ( talk) 21:07, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
WP:MOSNUM has a tag saying…
It has been suggested that the section Symbols for variables in formulas from the page Manual of Style (text formatting) be merged into this page or section. (Discuss)
The “Discuss” link connects to here but I see no discussion thread dedicated to the subject. So I’ll weigh in with my 2¢
It currently reads: "Currency abbreviations that come before the number are [...] spaced if alphabetic (R 75)." For consistency with the section at the top about non-breaking spaces, why not recommend an nbsp explicitly here? So it could perhaps read: "Currency abbreviations that come before the number are [...] spaced, with a non-breaking space, if alphabetic (R
75)." People coming here to check the situation with currencies, because they've written "R75" and are wondering if it would look better spaced and if the MoS has anything to say on the matter, are unlikely to read the nbsp section too, so it seems sensible to spell this point out briefly. Likewise for any other sections of the MoS where nbsp recommendations come into play and are not mentioned there already. Thanks.
79.64.170.147 (
talk)
19:45, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Anyone seen anything like this? There are others too. I'm guessing it would be best to just say "(died 1760)" if we don't even a good guess as to the birth year. — CharlotteWebb 22:27, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
If it's standard in Polish and not in English, then it shouldn't be done here, since this is English Wikipedia. Michael Hardy ( talk) 00:45, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
(I've also never seen it.) As for the MOS, I hardly think it needs to be mentioned; if it's just something that Poles might occasionally write, then it will be rare and those who would do it will change after being told that it's not done in English, with or without MOS. As for the naming question, which this also is, wouldn't avoiding the years altogether, as we usually try to do, be the best solution? Stanisław Potocki (voivode of Poznań) would for instance be close to pl:Stanisław Potocki (wojewoda poznański) (in which article, incidentally, there's not a Roman numeral in sight; the birth year is "ur. 1698"). — JAO • T • C 21:58, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
In October last year, a user edited the MOSNUM section on Large Numbers to specify that only numbers greater than 10,000 should have comma separators, with an edit summary of "as per talk page". I can't find any discussion myself, though I may have overlooked it. Since then, this guideline page has been in conflict with the {{ Convert}} template, which uses a comma separator for >=1,000 as seen in the following examples: 1,000 kilograms (2,200 lb), 1,000 metres (3,300 ft), 1,000 hectares (2,500 acres), etc.
Would it be possible to have either this page, or the template, edited so that this contradiction no longer exists? I don't have any concern as to which standard is adopted, although others may have stronger opinions. I've also posted at the talk page of the template to alert people to this. Regards, -- DeLarge ( talk) 12:04, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
I believe the MOS already hints at this when it says:
My conclusion is that a four digit number with no comma is generally assumed to be a year, if not a model number (e.g. 9500) or something else that is implicitly a proper noun, rather than a measurement of units (which functions more as an adjective). One (or at least I) would write: "2005 was 1,000 years later than 1005". — CharlotteWebb 22:20, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I just added 121 and 122, the most recent (or current) archives to the Archive Box at the top of this page. But I'm not sure about the parallel Date archives which would (if appropriate) be D 14, D 15, and perhaps also D 16. Could someone who understands the archiving process better make the necessary adjustments? Thanks. —— Shakescene ( talk) 09:27, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
I've always assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that those here who say the current Dynamic Dates syntax is "too complex" or "too complicated" meant the square brackets. Is it reasonable to assume that syntax such as {{#formatdate:December 3, 2009}}
would be considered by those here to be even "more complicated" than [[December 3]], [[2009]]
? I preferred using square brackets because it seemed simple and easier for a new editor to learn than some template-style invocation, and also because it avoided the tens of thousands of edits that would need to be made to change articles from the old style date format system to any new system. But my core question remains: would #formatdate be considered more complicated, as complicated or less complicated than the current square brackets system? —
Locke Cole •
t •
c
11:08, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
{{#formatdate:December 3, 2009}}
is eight characters more than [[December 3]], [[2009]]
. On the other hand, if that parser function were just called "d
", {{#d:December 3, 2009}}
would be one character less than [[December 3]], [[2009]]
.{{#d:Month Day, Year}}
resolves that aspect of the dispute, I'd be fine with it, but obviously more input is needed.{{d|date}}
or {{#formatdate:date}}
). —
Locke Cole •
t •
c
12:39, 2 May 2009 (UTC)Actually, it appears that linking the day of the year and the year in full dates was already customary before autoformatting was first introduced (for some reason which is beyond me), and it's still customary in many other Wikipedias (e.g. the Italian one) where autoformatting was never enabled (as there is only one date format in common use in Italian, and in most languages other than English). See e.g. /vote: a vote about which format to use, with no mention of unlinked dates, and only one option supporting autoformatting. For examples of its use, see [14], [15], [16], etc. They just picked a syntax which happened to be already in use around dates. I think the first proposal of autoformatting was in /Archive 1#Date markup. -- A. di M. (formerly Army1987) — Deeds, not words. 11:20, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
I do have to point out once again that one of the compelling reasons advanced for immediate automated delinking of all dates was that it was just too damn easy for other editors to adopt the same format they already saw in articles, and thus date-linking was bound to persist. I can't square this with any suggestions that the square-bracket method was in any way complicated. It was just plain simple, and the suggested use of a leading colon in the link to force blueing was also the same (though perhaps exactly converse) to using a leading colon to explicitly insert a [[Category:category link]] rather than a category itself. The rest of the discussion was down to viewpoints and jigging up the software. Franamax ( talk) 01:10, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
I imagine the parties who have been, uhmm… *promoting* the idea of autoformatting might well be enjoined by ArbCom for one whole year from continuing to persist at this. Were I such an advocate, I’d be hanging really low right now. Greg L ( talk) 02:01, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
I've also been a vocal opponent of autoformatting, mostly because of the added complexity it adds for new users. Most new users don't understand that they have to put special syntax around dates. They usually figure out pretty quickly that you need special syntax to create wikilinks. In my opinion, telling those users that yes, you use the same double brackets around dates, but they don't make links, they do something else, is going to be highly confusing. Something like formatdate makes it much more clear what the purpose of the syntax is (that is good!), but it is yet another piece of syntax that we are requiring users to learn (that is bad!), and (the other half of my objection) only to provide a limited advantage to a very, very small population (why?). For the vast majority of readers, and likely editors, that syntax, whatever it may be, is useless. Even if we make the default be the same for everyone, most people (judging by the % of users with preferences set) don't care at all. In my opinion, then, any special syntax for date autoformatting is making things overly and unnecessarily complex. Karanacs ( talk) 20:37, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
Rather than a useful discussion where opinions are respected and a compromise is considered, we have the usual suspects appearing, claiming nothing here need to be done, and carrying on as if things will go their way. This is not how Wikipedia should work, ever. — Locke Cole • t • c 02:49, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
It would be nice if some of the more difficult parts of this page were simplified. What, for example, is a significand? And why should we care? Yours very sincerely, GeorgeLouis ( talk)
"The mantissa (see the link on significand, or logarithm: the 1.2345 in 1.2345 * 109. What would you call it?" Well, I would call it jargon that is not comprehensible to most readers of this page. Sincerely, still your friend, GeorgeLouis ( talk) 20:50, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
If not, I plan on creating one. Please check out this discussion at the template talk page. 7 talk | Δ | 05:43, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
After considerable discussion, the MOS wording was changed to to the version that I have copyedited into MOSNUM. For information on the discussion go to [17] Michael Glass ( talk) 22:50, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Good move. Michael Glass ( talk) 00:07, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
I have reverted this addition because it is badly written (we do not have "Jewish" articles), and it is not our goal to avoid giving offence (see WP:NOTCENSORED). This would invite endless edit wars about whether the one or the other system should be used, and would set an odd precedent. Sandstein 20:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
They are not units of measurement. That is wordiness. One makes a measurement and records a measure. Measurement is wrong, just wrong. I started the discussion at Template:Convert talk page but I think best to bring it here; so far I have one supporter (and no objector). —Preceding unsigned comment added by SimonTrew ( talk • contribs) 17:13, 13 May 2009
My built-in Apple dictionary states "measurement |ˈme zh ərmənt| noun the action of measuring something : accurate measurement is essential | a telescope with which precise measurements can be made. • the size, length, or amount of something, as established by measuring : his inseam measurement. • a unit or system of measuring : a hand is a measurement used for measuring horses."
or see the definition at Measurement: Measurement is the process of assigning a number to an attribute (or phenomenon) according to a rule or set of rules. The term can also be used to refer to the result obtained after performing the process.
Yours, GeorgeLouis ( talk) 20:56, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
The new WP:MOSNUM#High-precision numbers section begins "Numbers with more than four digits after the decimal point". But, if such numbers do exist in an article, and visual gaps* are used to group the digits into groups of three, should we do the same to all numbers in the article, including large integers?
*I use the phrase "visual gaps" to indicate that when viewed with a browser, there appears to be a gap between certain digits, no matter whether there is an actual space character there or not. This avoids discussing which template is used to create the effect. -- Jc3s5h ( talk) 16:01, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Caveats: Sometimes numbers are expressed to high precision as a near-decorative effect to demonstrate how an irrational number (like pi) can be really long; there is no expectation that readers actually parse the value nor appreciate distinctions past, say, the fifth digit after the decimal point. Also, a not-too-uncommon failing Wikipedians fall victim to is to express numbers with greater precision than is truly necessary to convey the point, leading editors to not really care if it is easy for readers to parse and understand a number or not. So…
On the assumptions that 1) the number is not decorative-to-impress, and 2) is expressed at a precision suitable for conveying germane information, it is therefore important for readers to be able to easily parse the value and it should be delimited—commas to the left of the decimal point, narrow gaps to the right. And, yes, that would include “large integers”—that doesn’t change the fact that there is (supposedly) important information to the right of the decimal point that requires parsing. Greg L ( talk) 01:29, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
(unindent) New editors often learn by example. If they happen to examine articles that contain no full dates in the body of the article, but dates with abbreviated months in the footnotes, they might conclude they should abbreviate months everwhere. -- Jc3s5h ( talk) 17:47, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
This manual says:
Are there authoritative sources independent of Wikipedia that prescribe this usage? I'd have written 18° C. Michael Hardy ( talk) 03:13, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
I've found this.
The numerical value always precedes the unit, and a space is always used to separate the unit from the number. Thus the value of the quantity is the product of the number and the unit, the space being regarded as a multiplication sign (just as a space between units implies multiplication). The only exceptions to this rule are for the unit symbols for degree, minute, and second for plane angle, °, ', and ", respectively, for which no space is left between the numerical value and the unit symbol.
This rule means that the symbol °C for the degree Celsius is preceded by a space when one expresses values of Celsius temperature t.
JIMp talk· cont 08:24, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
I suppose it doesn't seem that way to the BIPM. Like it or not 68 °C appears to be the standard convention. Is altering such conventions what Wikipedia should be doing? JIMp talk· cont 08:49, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
I know Associated Press style is different than Wikipedia style, but what is the rule for ages and numbers? A.P. says always a numeral figure, but I can't seem to find it on this page. Fdssdf ( talk) 23:05, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
How long is the dates section going to stay protected? I say unprotect and block whoever tries to force something through with editwarring. -- Apoc2400 ( talk) 15:40, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
I would like to make clear somewhere in the guideline that British date formatting can be either April 20 or 20 April. When writing a date using only numbers, Brits always write the day first (20/04/2009), but when using the word for a month, April 20 is acceptable, as is 20 April.
The reason I'd like to clarify this is that I often see British editors arrive to change from April 20 to 20 April, often with edit summaries that imply they think the MoS requires it. It's usually done inconsistently; and I've seen editors change image names that contain dates (by mistake when they're changing other things), so that the images are no longer visible. Cleaning up after it can be time-consuming. Even though the MoS makes clear that people shouldn't be imposing style changes on stable articles, this misunderstanding about dates seems very persistent.
Does anyone mind if I clarify it to emphasize that either format is acceptable — when the word for the month is used, and not just numbers — whether in a British-related article or anywhere else? I'm posting below a sample of British and Irish newspapers that use the month/day format on their front pages, and in their articles.
England:
Scotland:
Wales:
Northern Ireland:
Republic of Ireland:
SlimVirgin talk| contribs 15:10, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
For WP not to have adopted a single format (or language variant) is seriously unprofessional. Admittedly, WP is not "professional" in the true sense, but that should not stop us taking a serious look at our style guide. It is important to note, as SV points out, that each publication has only one definitive style of dates and one language variant. Being the most widely visited information site on the Internet, WP is one of the few sites where there is a notable absence of prevailing style policy. I don't think the [decentralisation] suggestion is the right way to go. Ohconfucius ( talk) 04:55, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
The best written English is almost always a reflection of the best spoken English (which is why Shakespeare, the 1611 Authorised/ King James Version of the Bible, and the Book of Common Prayer, all written to be to be spoken aloud, are still such powerful influences—even among non-Christians and dramaphobes—four hundred years after they were written, despite major changes in vocabulary and sentence structure.) And most of us don't say "April twenty" or "Twenty April"; we say "April twentieth" and "the twentieth of April", partly because "Twenty" is a cardinal number and "twentieth" is an ordinal (modifying the unspoken "day of"). And in ordinary speech, most of us (I think) use both forms, "April twentieth" and "the twentieth of April", almost every week, if not every day or every hour. At times, we can even use both forms in the same sentence. If the technical reasons related to date-autoformatting, and the managing-editor's concern for saving space, no longer apply, then there's no reason for Wikipedia to disallow April 20th and 20th April, either, especially when they add to the clarity, flow, or style of a sentence or paragraph. ("Lincoln was shot on the 14th of April, 1865, and died on the 15th.") A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds... ( Ralph Waldo Emerson) —— Shakescene ( talk) 06:51, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Keep it simple. And I certainly wouldn’t try to intertwine date formatting to the dialect of English some volunteer editor used for an article; that is a separate matter. I would propose we simply make the date format as natural as possible for the likely readership. Nothing more.
Allow me to illustrate my point via example: Articles not closely associated with American topics such as Italy, Austria, Basilica di Saccargia and Kilogram have a pronounced non-American readership. Regardless of the dialect of English used by the editor of that article, we should be thinking foremost about our readers. So in articles on general or European subjects (articles clearly not associated with the U.S.), we would simply use Euro-style dates.
Conversely, for articles on, or closely associated with American topics, such as Spokane River Centennial Trail; Coeur d'Alene, Idaho; American Revolution; and New York Yankees, they have a preponderance of American readers and the date format that is most natural for those readers is the American-style date.
It is an utterly trivial matter to simply use the date format that is most natural for the likely readership. I would propose this simple guideline:
For articles on, or strongly associated with, the following countries and territories: The United States, American Samoa, Guam, Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, U.S. Virgin Islands, Wake Island, Republic of the Marshall Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, and Republic of Palau; editors should use the U.S.-style date format (“February 2, 2008”), otherwise, editors should use the international date format (“2 February 2008”) in articles.
I couldn’t care less if some Italian editor somewhere happen to have used British-dialect English and Euro-style dates when he first expanded Boston Red Socks from a stub. All any editor should have to do, if they encountered a mix of date styles in that article is consider (for all of about one second) what the subject is about and then (quickly) settle on the format most appropriate for the subject matter. Simple. And, yes, there will be an occasional grey-area article, like Gulf war: is that “strongly associated with America?” I think editors can work in good faith to resolve these issues if or when they arise. Greg L ( talk) 19:39, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
In addition to Chris' remark (quite sound), Greg's proposal would require the use of April 20 on purely American articles. Of the eight samples he names, six do use it without any requirement here; one does not mention any day. This is what one would expect, without any rule, and shows we don't need one. Battle of Midway, however, uses 20 April consistently; this appears to be a recent development among the American military, but is not something we should (or can) suppress without wider discussion.
But not only does it work poorly for American articles, it would work very badly for
I support SV on this change it "to emphasize that either format is acceptable [in British articles] — when the word for the month is used, and not just numbers" with the usual proviso not to change from one majority usage to the other, without agreement on the talk page of the article. -- PBS ( talk) 22:19, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Comment: SlimVirgin requested (through a note on my talk page) for the "Dates" section to be unprotected for editing. However, there does not appear to be any sort of consensus developing yet regarding changes to date formats, especially given the long-standing nature of the current guideline. Is there actually something ready for updating the MoS? Otherwise, I am inclined to leave the section protected for now. -- Ckatz chat spy 18:05, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
<--Two things. No, it's not normal that the guideline be locked on such a semi-permanent basis, but I don't see the point of changing it "to see if anyone objected" because we know what the status is; the issue could need an RfC to sort out. Ohconfucius ( talk) 10:53, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
All right, then (although I won't argue to remove edit-protection or to replace Talk-Consensus-Edit with Bold-Revert-Discuss for dates in this Manual), I'll be the one to advocate against required date-format consistency within an article, because it's just not necessary, it serves no function and its absence does little harm. I expect that dates within a single section of an article will often harmonise/harmonize naturally; but in normal writing, I occasionally use more than one format even within a single paragraph. Only when it breaks the flow, or makes comparisons or relations between dates difficult or jerky, should inconsistency be discouraged. An analogy would be the rule of thumb that usually one should avoid writing "five oranges and 23 grapes"; similarly one should generally avoid "proposed on March 17, passed on May 28th and signed on 5 June". Such faulty parallelisms in style usually work themselves out in the normal process of editing and self-editing; I see little reason that date formats need be a special exception. And anything reasonable that reduces the huge, unmanageable and intrusive Manual of Style to something easier for the average editor to learn, grasp and remember allows everyone to concentrate needed attention on genuine sources of ambiguity, obscurity, mistake or confusion. —— Shakescene ( talk) 07:01, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
All good stylebooks pick a date format and stick to it. Can anybody name one that doesn't? (By the way, if the person who used the word baloney above has an extra slice, I would like to have it to put between two halves of a biscuit/muffin for my lunch/supper.) Yours, GeorgeLouis ( talk) 07:13, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
I've reopened this, as we didn't seem to reach a conclusion. I'd like to make a tentative edit the page to see whether there is agreement. To clarify, I'd like to add that either April 20 or 20 April is acceptable in British English, when the word for the month is written out (as opposed to written in numerals). This is factually correct, so I can't see the problem with it. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin talk| contribs 23:47, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) i object again as well, on the same grounds as before: making "a tentative edit the page to see whether there is agreement" doesn't make sense when we're already discussing the proposed change; and "we didn't seem to reach a conclusion" before because there isn't any consensus that this change should be made. i grasp your point about some UK newspapers' styleguides favouring MDY format, but that doesn't mean Wikipedia can't opt for DMY format in articles written in UK English if that compromise works well, which it seems to. Sssoul ( talk) 05:55, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Note to SlimVirgin: SV, you asked about this a while ago, and I explained it then: the entire page was protected due to edit warring. The move to protect only the "Dates" section arose as a way to free up most of the page while still preventing wars over the dates language. When you asked previously, there was no consensus to unlock the dates text. This has nothing to do with me personally, I just happened to be the one who saw the requests. -- Ckatz chat spy 00:58, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
The ISO has proposed the YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM = 24hr clock (or the YYYY/MM/DD) format for international use. The government of Quebec has beeb usung this for years, if not decades, now and the government of Canada is well on it's way of adopting it. Peter Horn 01:51, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Speaking of looking at receipts, I'm the treasurer of a Canadian organization with an international membership, and I'm sitting here looking at a stack of cheques (or checks, if you're American). Most of the dates are ISO format. The ISO date format has the overwhelming advantage that it is the only numeric date format that is unambiguous. If you see "07/08/09", you have no idea whether that means "July 8, 2009", or "7 August 2009" unless you know the author's national origin and his personal preferences. If you see "2009-08-07", you know what it means, whether you express it as "7 August 2009" or "August 7, 2009". The latter three mean the same thing and the differences are only cosmetic. If you're writing in English (some of these cheques are in other languages), spelling the month out is the best solution, but the arguments about Julian/Gregorian calenders and readers being too stupid to figure it out are just nitpicking. RockyMtnGuy ( talk) 18:16, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
First, it is not my intention to start another date autoformatting debate here. Please do not make this a date autoformatting debate.
As a result of recent date formatting and linking polls ( here, here, and here), there appears to be a consensus to (eventually) discontinue the use of date links as a means to achieve date autoformatting. (Whether date autoformatting will continue in another form and the degree of date linking to remain is still being debated elsewhere.) While the long term implications of these polls are yet to be determined, it remains a possibility that linked-date based auto-formatting ($wgUseDynamicDates option) will eventually be turned off – not today, not this week, maybe not even this year. If and when this does occur, auto-formatting of linked dates will cease and, these dates be displayed as coded in the wiki-markup.
In the great majority of cases, this will not not a problem, since most dates are coded in the manner consistent with their intended display. Anonymous users will continue to see what they have always seen, and registered users will see what anonymous users see.
However, there are a significant number of cases where the wiki-markup dates are poorly formatted, i.e., they do not have the proper punctuation or spacing. For example, there are 130,000+ pages with dates of the form "[[month day]] [[year]]
" (missing comma) and 30,000+ pages with "[[day month]], [[year]]
" (unexpected comma), and another 13,000+ pages with various other poorly formatted dates (no space or comma, comma with no space, two or more spaces, etc.). Currently, a side effect of date autoformatting is that even when no date preference is selected, most of these cases are still adjusted to have the appropriate punctuation. For example, both "[[25 May]][[2009]]
" and "[[25 May]] , [[2009]]
" will display the same as "[[25 May]] [[2009]]
" (
25 May
2009 and
25 May , [[2009]). Many of the pages containing these issues are documented
here.
Date auto-formatting also recognizes ISO 8601 like dates for the form "[[2009-05-25]]
" and "[[2009]]-[[05-25]]
" and will reformat them as if they were coded as "[[2009]]-[[May 25|05-25]]
", adding the explicit link targets (
2009-05-25 and
2009-
05-25).
I propose identifying and correcting the formatting for existing poorly formatted dates, so that they contain the correct punctuation as written thus reducing the dependence on date autoformatting. The corrected dates would also follow the "what you see is what you get" principle, which I consider to be good practice. (An editor need not wonder why "[[25 May]], [[2009]]
" displays as "
25 May
2009" or "[[May25]][[2009]]
" displays as "
May 25,
2009".) For ISO 8601 like dates, adjusting the markup so that the presentation is the same, but month-day links would continue to work even if the wgUseDynamicDates option is turned off.
Details:
[[Sept 1]][[2009]]
" which currently displays as "
Sept 1
2009" (abbreviation not recognized).[[MAY 25]][[2009]]
" which currently displays as "
MAY 25
2009" (redlink due to all caps).I am currently developing bot to make these corrections, but would like to get the opinions consensus of those who frequent this forum before I proceed. There have been prior related discussions here. I am purposefully limiting the scope of this proposed change in an attempt to avoid related controversial issues.
Finally, it is not my intention to start another date autoformatting debate here. My intention is to reduce our dependence on date auto-formatting so that our options remain open. Please do not make this a date autoformatting debate. Thank you.
-- Tcncv ( talk) 06:02, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Does Wikipedia have a policy on the chronological ordering of years and dates? I am a bit troubled by the inconsistent listing of years/dates, sometimes the most recent can be found on the top of the list, sometimes on the bottom. I've searched high and low in the Manual of Style and other areas of the Help section without finding the answer, so I'd be very grateful if someone could enlighten me. Thanks. Wameya ( talk) 09:43, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
When I started work a year ago on New York City mayoral elections, the previous editors had already gone from 2009 backwards to 1929, election by election, which makes sense in this case because more readers (rightly or wrongly) are likely to have interest in Michael Bloomberg (Mayor since 2002) and Rudolph Giuliani (1994-2001) than in Robert A. Van Wyck (1898-1901) or Seth Low (1902-3). This has to be balanced against some confusion from the backward chronology. But in creating several summary tables, I started with 1897 or 1834 and worked forwards in time. I think this is an area where general guidance and advice would be very helpful, but any hard-and-fast rule (or anything which by some unstoppable natural process of Wikinevitability evolves in a virtual rule) would be out of place. —— Shakescene ( talk) 20:45, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
I think we understand each other. What would be the general guidance? Suggestion: "Put lists of dates in chronological order. Sort them from oldest to newest unless it makes more sense to sort them the other way round". That's clumsy but just a starter. SimonTrew ( talk) 21:45, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
And surely it's not hard to look at a list and realise it goes up or down in chronology? SimonTrew ( talk) 21:48, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Garion it makes more sense for exactly the point User:Shakescene made: the reader. They are more likely to want to read about the current or previous mayor than the one from the century ago, and mutatis mutandis for football results or whatever. Aren't we here editing to make things the best we can for readers? SimonTrew ( talk) 21:51, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
In the case of long lists with commentaries or details, you're really balancing two inconveniences: unnatural order vs time to reach what interests the reader most (or first). The article or listing of New York City mayoral elections is quite long, so it makes sense to put what interests the largest number of likely readers, and about which we have the widest range of reliable information, closest to the top. (The election of 1897 is interesting enough to click or scroll down for, but it won't attract so many initial readers.) However in my overall tables which take up one screen (or at most 2-3), chronological order is more convenient and best for showing changes over time. I'd think the same considerations would apply to something like a summary of all the FIFA World Cup Finals since 1930. Guidance to an editor for these kinds of question can be quite helpful, but a single rule (or even set of rules) wouldn't fit. —— Shakescene ( talk) 00:31, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't know if this is of relevance but I am just throwing this in while I think of it. If you look at UK railway station articles (e.g. Dullingham I am deliberately choosing one I know and is short) the current information is listed before the previous information. That just makes common sense, I think. I kinda agree with Garion that common sense is not as common as all that i.e. others have a different common sense, but anyone looking at that article can find where the route runs first without scrolling down. As I say I deliberately chose a very short one but I am just using it as an example, this pattern is followed in all railway station articles for the UK (no doubt there are some exceptions because of oddities or errors but this is the rule of thumb). I just mention it as another example in case it is useful, and probably have not put it very well. SimonTrew ( talk) 16:24, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Since pitching my question, I've been following the discussion sitting on my hands lest I should declare my personal preference (in certain cases) for newest to oldest lists. Of course, my preference is as irrelevant in this as any other’s personal preference, be it an editor or a reader. What I make of your exchange, however, is that a WP should perhaps be flexible enough that the contributor make a decision on the matter (thanks for the NYC mayor and FIFA WC Finals examples, Shakescene, I think you make a good point there). Now back to my initial frustration, is this already implicit in the Manual, or is there a need for formal clarification on the matter? (I’m a Freshman editor, sorry if I’m not up to speed on protocol here.) Wameya ( talk) 22:09, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
¶ Let me say in defence of Garion96's point, that I don't actually like the way that New York City mayoral elections is organized because I have to keep thinking backwards. However, the newest-first order (2009-1929) which I found when I first saw it seemed most practical for most likely readers. If Garion's interested in collaborating on a demonstrative reconstruction (on one of my sandbox pages or one of his or hers) of the mayoral election page with oldest-first (starting in 1897), I'd be very interested to see how it would look. —— Shakescene ( talk) 20:06, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
¶ Perhaps in the case of those chronological tables where this is feasible, there might be language recommending sortable tables for just the reasons adduced above. Newest-first is good for some things, but oldest-first is more natural and easier to follow mentally through time. Where the editors can offer the reader a choice of orders to suit his or her needs, we might suggest doing so. —— Shakescene ( talk) 05:24, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi. Just a note that you can have a hidden sort value in a table. For example, instead of a table such as:
{|class="wikitable sortable" ||Number ||Date |- ||1 ||4 Jan 2009 |- ||2 ||30 Jan 2009 |}
which produces:
Number | Date |
1 | 4 Jan 2009 |
2 | 30 Jan 2009 |
you can have:
{|class="wikitable sortable" ||Number ||Date |- ||1 ||{{Hs|2009-01-04}}4 Jan 2009 |- ||2 ||{{Hs|2009-01-30}}30 Jan 2009 |}
which produces:
Number | Date |
1 | 4 Jan 2009 |
2 | 30 Jan 2009 |
In the second case, the Date column sort behaves as expected (try sorting both date columns in ascending order to see the difference). For an example of this technique used big-time, have a look at List of compositions by George Frideric Handel. Cheers. HWV258 22:56, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
{{
Hs}}
template appears to be a recent duplication of functionality available in the {{
sort}}
template. Templates {{
dts}}
for dates, {{
nts}}
for numbers, and {{
sortname}}
are also commonly used templates for sorting. I suggest we not promote duplicate functionality. --
Tcncv (
talk)
04:28, 28 May 2009 (UTC)This relates to a question I posed on the Template:Convert talk page. Which one (assuming only one) is proper: "0.0074 acres" or "0.0074 acre"? Based on my my first-grade teacher's rule that the plural is for values greater than one (also less than -1, I presume), then singular is proper. However, because all such decimal examples start with 0, does the "zero takes the plural" standard govern? My example is based on the phrase "containing 0.0074 acres more or less" from Calvin Coolidge's proclamation #1745 (1925 September 5) establishing Father Millet Cross National Monument. However, the current U.S. Government Printing Office Style Mannual gives an example of "0.25 inch" ( Chapter 12.9d). — Eoghanacht talk 01:37, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
For some reason I feel that the plural is more "natural" except for phrases which use the indeterminate article right before the noun, e.g. "zero point five kilograms" but "half a kilogram" (probably because it's more-or-less what my native tongue does). OTOH on The Feynman Lectures on Physics we read stuff such as "1.782 × 10−27 gram" and "10−12 second". Might it depend on whether the writer expects the reader to pronounce it as "ten to the minus twelve seconds" or as "a trillionth of a second"? Or is it just another American–British difference? I begin to suspect the latter. -- A. di M. (formerly Army1987) — Deeds, not words. 10:23, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
From here and the other talk page, there does not seem to be enough concensus to set a rule one way or the other. From a programming perspective for the template, I presume it is easiest just to leave it as-is (plural). — Eoghanacht talk 15:03, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Hello. I am working on a proposal for a bot to carefully unlink dates, hopefully clearing main remaining dispute. I would unlink full autoformatting-style dates such as 5 November 1989, while leaving e.g. 1989 and November 5 alone. I would be happy if you would take a look at Wikipedia:Full-date unlinking bot and comment. It is still just a draft, but everyone is invited to point out mistakes and suggest improvements to the proposal. I plan to start an community RFC soon, which will be widely advertised and open to general opinion. -- Apoc2400 ( talk) 19:31, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
As of 22:04, 29 May 2009 (UTC), Arbcom has not yet approved of a proposal that would restrict date delinking in general, only for specific users. Dabomb87 ( talk) 22:04, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
This revert summary linked here, but I can't find the exception it refers to. Is it just me? — JAO • T • C 17:53, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
8¼ mi or 8.25 mi? I don't see this covered in the manual itself. Thanks for any help. — Anonymous Dissident Talk 13:18, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
I think fractions are good when something is defined as a fraction, especially if it's thirds. There was a bit of discussion of this at Talk:1950s Topps/Archive 1. -- Apoc2400 ( talk) 18:39, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I still don't see consensus for the copy there; it was not actually discussed in the most recent RfC. I don't see consensus for my revision, either, but it would make more difficult semi-vandalism creating a fait accompli by removing the relevant information from the year article, and then unlinking the year. I'm not intending to imply that these edits have consensus, but I think they should be made.
I don't see a specific finding in any of the RfCs that years of birth and death should not be linked, but there is clearly no consensus that they should be linked, even though I believe Wikipedia would be improved by those links. I see a weak consensus that Saint Patrick's Day should link to March 17, which seems to be contradicted by the text, although "as any other link" seems ambiguous as to whether it means "as any other date-link" (in other words, subject to the rest of the paragraph), or "as to any other link" (disregarding this paragraph, and applying only the general linking guidelines).
The separate question of whether the birth year and death years, or the year of creation of an object (album, song, bridge, whatever) in infoboxes or whether the year of succession should be linked in succession boxes hasn't been brought up yet, and I believe it needs to be. The text is also ambiguous, in my opinion, as to whether 2008 in sports should have month-day links, or links such as [[2005 in sports|2005]]. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
References to commemorative days ( Saint Patrick's Day) are treated as for any other link. Intrinsically chronological articles ( 1789, January, and 1940s) may themselves contain linked chronological items.
Oh for fuck's sake, not another one of these. Can't you even wait until ARBCOM is done? This is pretty damned near trolling at this point. This also applies to the user below. Headbomb { ταλκ κοντριβς – WP Physics} 21:24, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
I tend not to agree with the line "The form since 1996 should be used in favor of 1996–present in article text and infoboxes." in the " other date ranges" section... particularly in the case of infoboxes.
In most infoboxes the value is set to "Years active:" or some other form thereof, implying that a year range be specified. Something like "since 1996" is not a range per se, as opposed to "1996–present", which implies a range, i.e. "1996 through to the present". Also, I think placing the year first (before the word "since") looks better and provides the needed information more prominently. What are thoughts on this? Has this already been discussed widely? It should be noted that I have no problem with "since 1996" in the article text itself, as certainly "since 1996" flows better in paragraphs.
And just to add, I don't see the MOS's issue with noting "–present" in date ranges. Sure, "the present" is a constantly moving target, but we know that "present" will simply be replaced with the appropriate date/year when the tenure is completed; i.e. "1996–present" will become "1996–2009" (example) when appropriate. — `CRAZY`(lN)`SANE` 20:45, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 115 | ← | Archive 120 | Archive 121 | Archive 122 | Archive 123 | Archive 124 | Archive 125 |
This is to let people know that there is only a day or so left on a poll. The poll is an attempt to end years of argument about autoformatting which has also led to a dispute about date linking. Your votes are welcome at: Wikipedia:Date formatting and linking poll. Regards Lightmouse ( talk) 09:11, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}} Please add {{shortcut|WP:MOSBD}}
to the
Dates of birth and death section. This section is often referred to, and the shortcut would be convenient. The redirect at
WP:MOSBD has already been created.
MANdARAX •
XAЯAbИAM
21:18, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
I would like to make clear somewhere in the guideline that British date formatting can be either April 20 or 20 April. When writing a date using only numbers, Brits always write the day first (20/04/2009), but when using the word for a month, April 20 is acceptable, as is 20 April.
The reason I'd like to clarify this is that I often see British editors arrive to change from April 20 to 20 April, often with edit summaries that imply they think the MoS requires it. It's usually done inconsistently; and I've seen editors change image names that contain dates (by mistake when they're changing other things), so that the images are no longer visible. Cleaning up after it can be time-consuming. Even though the MoS makes clear that people shouldn't be imposing style changes on stable articles, this misunderstanding about dates seems very persistent.
Does anyone mind if I clarify it to emphasize that either format is acceptable — when the word for the month is used, and not just numbers — whether in a British-related article or anywhere else? I'm posting below a sample of British and Irish newspapers that use the month/day format on their front pages, and in their articles.
England:
Scotland:
Wales:
Northern Ireland:
Republic of Ireland:
SlimVirgin talk| contribs 15:10, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
For WP not to have adopted a single format (or language variant) is seriously unprofessional. Admittedly, WP is not "professional" in the true sense, but that should not stop us taking a serious look at our style guide. It is important to note, as SV points out, that each publication has only one definitive style of dates and one language variant. Being the most widely visited information site on the Internet, WP is one of the few sites where there is a notable absence of prevailing style policy. I don't think the [decentralisation] suggestion is the right way to go. Ohconfucius ( talk) 04:55, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
The best written English is almost always a reflection of the best spoken English (which is why Shakespeare, the 1611 Authorised/ King James Version of the Bible, and the Book of Common Prayer, all written to be to be spoken aloud, are still such powerful influences—even among non-Christians and dramaphobes—four hundred years after they were written, despite major changes in vocabulary and sentence structure.) And most of us don't say "April twenty" or "Twenty April"; we say "April twentieth" and "the twentieth of April", partly because "Twenty" is a cardinal number and "twentieth" is an ordinal (modifying the unspoken "day of"). And in ordinary speech, most of us (I think) use both forms, "April twentieth" and "the twentieth of April", almost every week, if not every day or every hour. At times, we can even use both forms in the same sentence. If the technical reasons related to date-autoformatting, and the managing-editor's concern for saving space, no longer apply, then there's no reason for Wikipedia to disallow April 20th and 20th April, either, especially when they add to the clarity, flow, or style of a sentence or paragraph. ("Lincoln was shot on the 14th of April, 1865, and died on the 15th.") A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds... ( Ralph Waldo Emerson) —— Shakescene ( talk) 06:51, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Keep it simple. And I certainly wouldn’t try to intertwine date formatting to the dialect of English some volunteer editor used for an article; that is a separate matter. I would propose we simply make the date format as natural as possible for the likely readership. Nothing more.
Allow me to illustrate my point via example: Articles not closely associated with American topics such as Italy, Austria, Basilica di Saccargia and Kilogram have a pronounced non-American readership. Regardless of the dialect of English used by the editor of that article, we should be thinking foremost about our readers. So in articles on general or European subjects (articles clearly not associated with the U.S.), we would simply use Euro-style dates.
Conversely, for articles on, or closely associated with American topics, such as Spokane River Centennial Trail; Coeur d'Alene, Idaho; American Revolution; and New York Yankees, they have a preponderance of American readers and the date format that is most natural for those readers is the American-style date.
It is an utterly trivial matter to simply use the date format that is most natural for the likely readership. I would propose this simple guideline:
For articles on, or strongly associated with, the following countries and territories: The United States, American Samoa, Guam, Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, U.S. Virgin Islands, Wake Island, Republic of the Marshall Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, and Republic of Palau; editors should use the U.S.-style date format (“February 2, 2008”), otherwise, editors should use the international date format (“2 February 2008”) in articles.
I couldn’t care less if some Italian editor somewhere happen to have used British-dialect English and Euro-style dates when he first expanded Boston Red Socks from a stub. All any editor should have to do, if they encountered a mix of date styles in that article is consider (for all of about one second) what the subject is about and then (quickly) settle on the format most appropriate for the subject matter. Simple. And, yes, there will be an occasional grey-area article, like Gulf war: is that “strongly associated with America?” I think editors can work in good faith to resolve these issues if or when they arise. Greg L ( talk) 19:39, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
In addition to Chris' remark (quite sound), Greg's proposal would require the use of April 20 on purely American articles. Of the eight samples he names, six do use it without any requirement here; one does not mention any day. This is what one would expect, without any rule, and shows we don't need one. Battle of Midway, however, uses 20 April consistently; this appears to be a recent development among the American military, but is not something we should (or can) suppress without wider discussion.
But not only does it work poorly for American articles, it would work very badly for
I support SV on this change it "to emphasize that either format is acceptable [in British articles] — when the word for the month is used, and not just numbers" with the usual proviso not to change from one majority usage to the other, without agreement on the talk page of the article. -- PBS ( talk) 22:19, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Comment: SlimVirgin requested (through a note on my talk page) for the "Dates" section to be unprotected for editing. However, there does not appear to be any sort of consensus developing yet regarding changes to date formats, especially given the long-standing nature of the current guideline. Is there actually something ready for updating the MoS? Otherwise, I am inclined to leave the section protected for now. -- Ckatz chat spy 18:05, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
<--Two things. No, it's not normal that the guideline be locked on such a semi-permanent basis, but I don't see the point of changing it "to see if anyone objected" because we know what the status is; the issue could need an RfC to sort out. Ohconfucius ( talk) 10:53, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
All right, then (although I won't argue to remove edit-protection or to replace Talk-Consensus-Edit with Bold-Revert-Discuss for dates in this Manual), I'll be the one to advocate against required date-format consistency within an article, because it's just not necessary, it serves no function and its absence does little harm. I expect that dates within a single section of an article will often harmonise/harmonize naturally; but in normal writing, I occasionally use more than one format even within a single paragraph. Only when it breaks the flow, or makes comparisons or relations between dates difficult or jerky, should inconsistency be discouraged. An analogy would be the rule of thumb that usually one should avoid writing "five oranges and 23 grapes"; similarly one should generally avoid "proposed on March 17, passed on May 28th and signed on 5 June". Such faulty parallelisms in style usually work themselves out in the normal process of editing and self-editing; I see little reason that date formats need be a special exception. And anything reasonable that reduces the huge, unmanageable and intrusive Manual of Style to something easier for the average editor to learn, grasp and remember allows everyone to concentrate needed attention on genuine sources of ambiguity, obscurity, mistake or confusion. —— Shakescene ( talk) 07:01, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
All good stylebooks pick a date format and stick to it. Can anybody name one that doesn't? (By the way, if the person who used the word baloney above has an extra slice, I would like to have it to put between two halves of a biscuit/muffin for my lunch/supper.) Yours, GeorgeLouis ( talk) 07:13, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
"huge, unmanageable and intrusive Manual of Style". Schakescene, now we know you're a bedfellow of Anderson. He will stop at nothing to re-ignite his "let's dilute MoS" campaign, which has been going on for three years. If you resist, you're labelled a "bully" (only last week, I see) and "chief mess-maker", a personal attack by Anderson three days ago, above (any more and it will be a matter for ANI). And dragging in this concept of how poorly done by "the average editor" is by these pesky guidelines is the last, desperate resort of those who prefer that the site dispense with the authority, cohesion and readability of within-article consistency (and on other levels whole-site consistency).
"Average editors" do not write well and are likely to be pleased to have advice. My writing improved significantly after I regularly consulted MoS. On the dates, consistency within the main text is essential, and no, you never want to read a sentence that mixes them up, not just "generally". Equating grammatical choices such as the "Congress" example above with this concocted argument for editorial freedom over messing with date formats is nonsense. Tony (talk) 03:08, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Per WP:ENGVAR, (1) "The English Wikipedia has no preference for any major national variety of the language"; (2) "An article on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation uses the appropriate variety of English for that nation". Now, this article says to use commas every three positions in writing large numbers, e.g. 1,234,567. However, Indian English, the convention is to use two positions for higher than one thousand, e.g. 12,34,567. I see a contradiction here -- WP:ENGVAR suggests that the Indian format is acceptable, especially on Indian articles; WP:MOSNUM here suggests that it is not acceptable. This contradiction needs to be resolved. I would sughttp://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/button_math.pnggest, that it should be resolved by amending WP:MOSNUM to permit Indian number format when permitted by WP:ENGVAR. -- SJK ( talk) 05:39, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
I tend to agree with Anderson. Lakh and crore are not English so the number formatting based on them is not English either and would likely lead to confusion. JIMp talk· cont 11:24, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Many discussions on MOS pages revolve around questions of "should" vs. "must". It seems to me that unnecessary drama is introduced partly because we do not formally recognize these distinctions in the language of MOS documents, or in our discussions. For example, in the prior "April 20 v 20 April" discussion, I have the sense of broad common ground on the idea that uniformity of formats is generally a good thing, but there is divergence on whether exceptions are allowable (are they "jarring" or not?). In technical literature, the terms "may", "should" and "must" have strict meanings. Surely there are cases where it is valuable for a MOS document to provide style advice that does not constitute a hard and fast rule. Perhaps the following nit issue on date formatting is an example: If {{
OldStyleDate}}
is used in a biography infobox, is our guidance that all dates in the infobox use them? Should that have the status of "advice/suggestion/guidance" that contributors should use but may diverge from, or a style rule that must be used and that MOSNUM Cops should unleash their bots on? What I am suggesting here is that MOS formally employ the terms "should" and "must" (respectively) two distinguish between the two cases, and that proposals make explicit distinctions between the two. I propose the following 3 key words to be denoted in italics in MOS documents:
- J JMesserly ( talk) 20:26, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't like uniformity for its own sake, or the huge multiplication of over-precise rules, but there is another area where I think general norms are very much needed. That's where there's a possibility of unreadability for medical or technical reasons ( WP:ACCESS), or the possibility of confusion, error, obscurity or ambiguity for linguistic reasons. Often what is perfectly good (or even preferred) usage in ordinary writing or print presents some difficulty for sight-impaired or non-Anglophone readers. In fact I think this is the best justification for a Manual of Style. —— Shakescene ( talk) 22:14, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm beginning to feel more strongly that a smaller Manual of Style or Standard Wikipedia Format, limited to no more than 2 pages (as opposed to the present dozen or two-dozen separate pages), which can be easily read, learned, remembered and assimilated, should be segregated out from hints, suggestions and indications of the conventions and usage that are generally practised, preferred or found useful on Wikipedia. WP:Cheatsheet and WP:Accessibility are examples of the kind of thing I'm thinking of, but on a rather more comprehensive scale. Avoiding "9/6" because it's unclear whether it means September 6th or June 9th, indicating your calendar or thermometer when unclear, offering metric/customary/Imperial unit conversions whenever practical and observing the more-specific parts of WP:Accessibility would be examples of things (upon which we all agree) that should go into the smaller Manual. Other date formats, English/U.S. spelling (except for the microscopic fraction that presents genuine uncertainty), hyphenation, paragraphing, hectares vs km², internal consistency, parallel phrasing, etc. are the kinds of things that could go into a more general and discursive document ("Guide to Better Style" or "Common Wikipedia Usage") that could be broken into several different topic pages. —— Shakescene ( talk) 06:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
is a textbook example of WP:BEANS, and there are many others.) -- A. di M. (formerly Army1987) — Deeds, not words. 12:31, 29 April 2009 (UTC)Use discretion when it comes to using scientific and engineering notation. Not all values need to be written in it (e.g., do not write the house was 1.25×102 y old, but rather the house was 125 years old in 2008 or simply the house was built in 1883).
(unindent)Coincidently, I've started to write my own guide to writing ( User:Headbomb/Writing). The section [[User:Headbomb/Writing#..._when_improving_style] might be of relevance. Headbomb { ταλκ κοντριβς – WP Physics} 19:38, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Let's start tackling the issue. Unless someone objects in the next 24 hours, I'm going to replace:
- When using either scientific or engineering notation in articles, consistency is preferred (e.g., do not write A 2.23×102 m2 region covered by 234.0×106 grains of sand).
- Use discretion when it comes to using scientific and engineering notation. Not all values need to be written in it (e.g., do not write the house was 1.25×102 y old, but rather the house was 125 years old in 2008 or simply the house was built in 1883).
- Sometimes it is useful to compare values with the same power of 10 (often in tables) and scientific or engineering notation might not be appropriate.
with:
- It is preferred to avoid mixing scientific notation and engineering notation in the same article (e.g., do not write A 2.23×102 m2 region covered by 234.0×106 grains of sand).
- Sometimes it is useful to compare values with the same power of 10 (often in tables) and scientific or engineering notation might not be appropriate.
It is 270 bytes less; it doesn't solve the problem of the bloat in the MoS but it's a good start. -- A. di M. (formerly Army1987) — Deeds, not words. 09:20, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
¶ Let me clarify what I was proposing. I think the nearly-mandatory part, which could be (for working purposes here) be called a Book (or Page) of Rules which everyone here agrees should almost always be followed, could be confined to one or two pages (or if you prefer, articles) of some indeterminate length below 100 kB (if it's hard for some users to load, then it defeats part of its purpose).
Those are things we all agree on, the things that are most important (e.g. something that's understandable by a non-Anglophone or sight-impaired person, as opposed to conventions about paragraphing, spelling or capitalisation/capitalization), and the things that a new editor most needs to be able to learn, remember and use.
We can still argue about how mandatory, precatory, advisory or optional the other parts need to be. When I see two dozen separate pages/articles on everything from dates to flags, on the one hand, they're very useful as a guide to style or general conventions, but on the other, the collection considered as a whole seems absurd and unmanageable as a battery of enforceable rules.
I came to the MOS for guidance on whether something should be said to have "over 75,000" supporters or "more than 75,000" supporters. Which is appropriate for Wikipedia? Either I overlooked an applicable guideline or none yet exists. Thanks. Benccc ( talk) 20:03, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
I have attempted to set up a Music date task force in order to change instances of "present" to "onward" among other things in music related articles. Dark Prime ( talk) 21:07, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
WP:MOSNUM has a tag saying…
It has been suggested that the section Symbols for variables in formulas from the page Manual of Style (text formatting) be merged into this page or section. (Discuss)
The “Discuss” link connects to here but I see no discussion thread dedicated to the subject. So I’ll weigh in with my 2¢
It currently reads: "Currency abbreviations that come before the number are [...] spaced if alphabetic (R 75)." For consistency with the section at the top about non-breaking spaces, why not recommend an nbsp explicitly here? So it could perhaps read: "Currency abbreviations that come before the number are [...] spaced, with a non-breaking space, if alphabetic (R
75)." People coming here to check the situation with currencies, because they've written "R75" and are wondering if it would look better spaced and if the MoS has anything to say on the matter, are unlikely to read the nbsp section too, so it seems sensible to spell this point out briefly. Likewise for any other sections of the MoS where nbsp recommendations come into play and are not mentioned there already. Thanks.
79.64.170.147 (
talk)
19:45, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Anyone seen anything like this? There are others too. I'm guessing it would be best to just say "(died 1760)" if we don't even a good guess as to the birth year. — CharlotteWebb 22:27, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
If it's standard in Polish and not in English, then it shouldn't be done here, since this is English Wikipedia. Michael Hardy ( talk) 00:45, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
(I've also never seen it.) As for the MOS, I hardly think it needs to be mentioned; if it's just something that Poles might occasionally write, then it will be rare and those who would do it will change after being told that it's not done in English, with or without MOS. As for the naming question, which this also is, wouldn't avoiding the years altogether, as we usually try to do, be the best solution? Stanisław Potocki (voivode of Poznań) would for instance be close to pl:Stanisław Potocki (wojewoda poznański) (in which article, incidentally, there's not a Roman numeral in sight; the birth year is "ur. 1698"). — JAO • T • C 21:58, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
In October last year, a user edited the MOSNUM section on Large Numbers to specify that only numbers greater than 10,000 should have comma separators, with an edit summary of "as per talk page". I can't find any discussion myself, though I may have overlooked it. Since then, this guideline page has been in conflict with the {{ Convert}} template, which uses a comma separator for >=1,000 as seen in the following examples: 1,000 kilograms (2,200 lb), 1,000 metres (3,300 ft), 1,000 hectares (2,500 acres), etc.
Would it be possible to have either this page, or the template, edited so that this contradiction no longer exists? I don't have any concern as to which standard is adopted, although others may have stronger opinions. I've also posted at the talk page of the template to alert people to this. Regards, -- DeLarge ( talk) 12:04, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
I believe the MOS already hints at this when it says:
My conclusion is that a four digit number with no comma is generally assumed to be a year, if not a model number (e.g. 9500) or something else that is implicitly a proper noun, rather than a measurement of units (which functions more as an adjective). One (or at least I) would write: "2005 was 1,000 years later than 1005". — CharlotteWebb 22:20, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I just added 121 and 122, the most recent (or current) archives to the Archive Box at the top of this page. But I'm not sure about the parallel Date archives which would (if appropriate) be D 14, D 15, and perhaps also D 16. Could someone who understands the archiving process better make the necessary adjustments? Thanks. —— Shakescene ( talk) 09:27, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
I've always assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that those here who say the current Dynamic Dates syntax is "too complex" or "too complicated" meant the square brackets. Is it reasonable to assume that syntax such as {{#formatdate:December 3, 2009}}
would be considered by those here to be even "more complicated" than [[December 3]], [[2009]]
? I preferred using square brackets because it seemed simple and easier for a new editor to learn than some template-style invocation, and also because it avoided the tens of thousands of edits that would need to be made to change articles from the old style date format system to any new system. But my core question remains: would #formatdate be considered more complicated, as complicated or less complicated than the current square brackets system? —
Locke Cole •
t •
c
11:08, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
{{#formatdate:December 3, 2009}}
is eight characters more than [[December 3]], [[2009]]
. On the other hand, if that parser function were just called "d
", {{#d:December 3, 2009}}
would be one character less than [[December 3]], [[2009]]
.{{#d:Month Day, Year}}
resolves that aspect of the dispute, I'd be fine with it, but obviously more input is needed.{{d|date}}
or {{#formatdate:date}}
). —
Locke Cole •
t •
c
12:39, 2 May 2009 (UTC)Actually, it appears that linking the day of the year and the year in full dates was already customary before autoformatting was first introduced (for some reason which is beyond me), and it's still customary in many other Wikipedias (e.g. the Italian one) where autoformatting was never enabled (as there is only one date format in common use in Italian, and in most languages other than English). See e.g. /vote: a vote about which format to use, with no mention of unlinked dates, and only one option supporting autoformatting. For examples of its use, see [14], [15], [16], etc. They just picked a syntax which happened to be already in use around dates. I think the first proposal of autoformatting was in /Archive 1#Date markup. -- A. di M. (formerly Army1987) — Deeds, not words. 11:20, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
I do have to point out once again that one of the compelling reasons advanced for immediate automated delinking of all dates was that it was just too damn easy for other editors to adopt the same format they already saw in articles, and thus date-linking was bound to persist. I can't square this with any suggestions that the square-bracket method was in any way complicated. It was just plain simple, and the suggested use of a leading colon in the link to force blueing was also the same (though perhaps exactly converse) to using a leading colon to explicitly insert a [[Category:category link]] rather than a category itself. The rest of the discussion was down to viewpoints and jigging up the software. Franamax ( talk) 01:10, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
I imagine the parties who have been, uhmm… *promoting* the idea of autoformatting might well be enjoined by ArbCom for one whole year from continuing to persist at this. Were I such an advocate, I’d be hanging really low right now. Greg L ( talk) 02:01, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
I've also been a vocal opponent of autoformatting, mostly because of the added complexity it adds for new users. Most new users don't understand that they have to put special syntax around dates. They usually figure out pretty quickly that you need special syntax to create wikilinks. In my opinion, telling those users that yes, you use the same double brackets around dates, but they don't make links, they do something else, is going to be highly confusing. Something like formatdate makes it much more clear what the purpose of the syntax is (that is good!), but it is yet another piece of syntax that we are requiring users to learn (that is bad!), and (the other half of my objection) only to provide a limited advantage to a very, very small population (why?). For the vast majority of readers, and likely editors, that syntax, whatever it may be, is useless. Even if we make the default be the same for everyone, most people (judging by the % of users with preferences set) don't care at all. In my opinion, then, any special syntax for date autoformatting is making things overly and unnecessarily complex. Karanacs ( talk) 20:37, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
Rather than a useful discussion where opinions are respected and a compromise is considered, we have the usual suspects appearing, claiming nothing here need to be done, and carrying on as if things will go their way. This is not how Wikipedia should work, ever. — Locke Cole • t • c 02:49, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
It would be nice if some of the more difficult parts of this page were simplified. What, for example, is a significand? And why should we care? Yours very sincerely, GeorgeLouis ( talk)
"The mantissa (see the link on significand, or logarithm: the 1.2345 in 1.2345 * 109. What would you call it?" Well, I would call it jargon that is not comprehensible to most readers of this page. Sincerely, still your friend, GeorgeLouis ( talk) 20:50, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
If not, I plan on creating one. Please check out this discussion at the template talk page. 7 talk | Δ | 05:43, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
After considerable discussion, the MOS wording was changed to to the version that I have copyedited into MOSNUM. For information on the discussion go to [17] Michael Glass ( talk) 22:50, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Good move. Michael Glass ( talk) 00:07, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
I have reverted this addition because it is badly written (we do not have "Jewish" articles), and it is not our goal to avoid giving offence (see WP:NOTCENSORED). This would invite endless edit wars about whether the one or the other system should be used, and would set an odd precedent. Sandstein 20:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
They are not units of measurement. That is wordiness. One makes a measurement and records a measure. Measurement is wrong, just wrong. I started the discussion at Template:Convert talk page but I think best to bring it here; so far I have one supporter (and no objector). —Preceding unsigned comment added by SimonTrew ( talk • contribs) 17:13, 13 May 2009
My built-in Apple dictionary states "measurement |ˈme zh ərmənt| noun the action of measuring something : accurate measurement is essential | a telescope with which precise measurements can be made. • the size, length, or amount of something, as established by measuring : his inseam measurement. • a unit or system of measuring : a hand is a measurement used for measuring horses."
or see the definition at Measurement: Measurement is the process of assigning a number to an attribute (or phenomenon) according to a rule or set of rules. The term can also be used to refer to the result obtained after performing the process.
Yours, GeorgeLouis ( talk) 20:56, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
The new WP:MOSNUM#High-precision numbers section begins "Numbers with more than four digits after the decimal point". But, if such numbers do exist in an article, and visual gaps* are used to group the digits into groups of three, should we do the same to all numbers in the article, including large integers?
*I use the phrase "visual gaps" to indicate that when viewed with a browser, there appears to be a gap between certain digits, no matter whether there is an actual space character there or not. This avoids discussing which template is used to create the effect. -- Jc3s5h ( talk) 16:01, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Caveats: Sometimes numbers are expressed to high precision as a near-decorative effect to demonstrate how an irrational number (like pi) can be really long; there is no expectation that readers actually parse the value nor appreciate distinctions past, say, the fifth digit after the decimal point. Also, a not-too-uncommon failing Wikipedians fall victim to is to express numbers with greater precision than is truly necessary to convey the point, leading editors to not really care if it is easy for readers to parse and understand a number or not. So…
On the assumptions that 1) the number is not decorative-to-impress, and 2) is expressed at a precision suitable for conveying germane information, it is therefore important for readers to be able to easily parse the value and it should be delimited—commas to the left of the decimal point, narrow gaps to the right. And, yes, that would include “large integers”—that doesn’t change the fact that there is (supposedly) important information to the right of the decimal point that requires parsing. Greg L ( talk) 01:29, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
(unindent) New editors often learn by example. If they happen to examine articles that contain no full dates in the body of the article, but dates with abbreviated months in the footnotes, they might conclude they should abbreviate months everwhere. -- Jc3s5h ( talk) 17:47, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
This manual says:
Are there authoritative sources independent of Wikipedia that prescribe this usage? I'd have written 18° C. Michael Hardy ( talk) 03:13, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
I've found this.
The numerical value always precedes the unit, and a space is always used to separate the unit from the number. Thus the value of the quantity is the product of the number and the unit, the space being regarded as a multiplication sign (just as a space between units implies multiplication). The only exceptions to this rule are for the unit symbols for degree, minute, and second for plane angle, °, ', and ", respectively, for which no space is left between the numerical value and the unit symbol.
This rule means that the symbol °C for the degree Celsius is preceded by a space when one expresses values of Celsius temperature t.
JIMp talk· cont 08:24, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
I suppose it doesn't seem that way to the BIPM. Like it or not 68 °C appears to be the standard convention. Is altering such conventions what Wikipedia should be doing? JIMp talk· cont 08:49, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
I know Associated Press style is different than Wikipedia style, but what is the rule for ages and numbers? A.P. says always a numeral figure, but I can't seem to find it on this page. Fdssdf ( talk) 23:05, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
How long is the dates section going to stay protected? I say unprotect and block whoever tries to force something through with editwarring. -- Apoc2400 ( talk) 15:40, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
I would like to make clear somewhere in the guideline that British date formatting can be either April 20 or 20 April. When writing a date using only numbers, Brits always write the day first (20/04/2009), but when using the word for a month, April 20 is acceptable, as is 20 April.
The reason I'd like to clarify this is that I often see British editors arrive to change from April 20 to 20 April, often with edit summaries that imply they think the MoS requires it. It's usually done inconsistently; and I've seen editors change image names that contain dates (by mistake when they're changing other things), so that the images are no longer visible. Cleaning up after it can be time-consuming. Even though the MoS makes clear that people shouldn't be imposing style changes on stable articles, this misunderstanding about dates seems very persistent.
Does anyone mind if I clarify it to emphasize that either format is acceptable — when the word for the month is used, and not just numbers — whether in a British-related article or anywhere else? I'm posting below a sample of British and Irish newspapers that use the month/day format on their front pages, and in their articles.
England:
Scotland:
Wales:
Northern Ireland:
Republic of Ireland:
SlimVirgin talk| contribs 15:10, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
For WP not to have adopted a single format (or language variant) is seriously unprofessional. Admittedly, WP is not "professional" in the true sense, but that should not stop us taking a serious look at our style guide. It is important to note, as SV points out, that each publication has only one definitive style of dates and one language variant. Being the most widely visited information site on the Internet, WP is one of the few sites where there is a notable absence of prevailing style policy. I don't think the [decentralisation] suggestion is the right way to go. Ohconfucius ( talk) 04:55, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
The best written English is almost always a reflection of the best spoken English (which is why Shakespeare, the 1611 Authorised/ King James Version of the Bible, and the Book of Common Prayer, all written to be to be spoken aloud, are still such powerful influences—even among non-Christians and dramaphobes—four hundred years after they were written, despite major changes in vocabulary and sentence structure.) And most of us don't say "April twenty" or "Twenty April"; we say "April twentieth" and "the twentieth of April", partly because "Twenty" is a cardinal number and "twentieth" is an ordinal (modifying the unspoken "day of"). And in ordinary speech, most of us (I think) use both forms, "April twentieth" and "the twentieth of April", almost every week, if not every day or every hour. At times, we can even use both forms in the same sentence. If the technical reasons related to date-autoformatting, and the managing-editor's concern for saving space, no longer apply, then there's no reason for Wikipedia to disallow April 20th and 20th April, either, especially when they add to the clarity, flow, or style of a sentence or paragraph. ("Lincoln was shot on the 14th of April, 1865, and died on the 15th.") A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds... ( Ralph Waldo Emerson) —— Shakescene ( talk) 06:51, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Keep it simple. And I certainly wouldn’t try to intertwine date formatting to the dialect of English some volunteer editor used for an article; that is a separate matter. I would propose we simply make the date format as natural as possible for the likely readership. Nothing more.
Allow me to illustrate my point via example: Articles not closely associated with American topics such as Italy, Austria, Basilica di Saccargia and Kilogram have a pronounced non-American readership. Regardless of the dialect of English used by the editor of that article, we should be thinking foremost about our readers. So in articles on general or European subjects (articles clearly not associated with the U.S.), we would simply use Euro-style dates.
Conversely, for articles on, or closely associated with American topics, such as Spokane River Centennial Trail; Coeur d'Alene, Idaho; American Revolution; and New York Yankees, they have a preponderance of American readers and the date format that is most natural for those readers is the American-style date.
It is an utterly trivial matter to simply use the date format that is most natural for the likely readership. I would propose this simple guideline:
For articles on, or strongly associated with, the following countries and territories: The United States, American Samoa, Guam, Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, U.S. Virgin Islands, Wake Island, Republic of the Marshall Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, and Republic of Palau; editors should use the U.S.-style date format (“February 2, 2008”), otherwise, editors should use the international date format (“2 February 2008”) in articles.
I couldn’t care less if some Italian editor somewhere happen to have used British-dialect English and Euro-style dates when he first expanded Boston Red Socks from a stub. All any editor should have to do, if they encountered a mix of date styles in that article is consider (for all of about one second) what the subject is about and then (quickly) settle on the format most appropriate for the subject matter. Simple. And, yes, there will be an occasional grey-area article, like Gulf war: is that “strongly associated with America?” I think editors can work in good faith to resolve these issues if or when they arise. Greg L ( talk) 19:39, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
In addition to Chris' remark (quite sound), Greg's proposal would require the use of April 20 on purely American articles. Of the eight samples he names, six do use it without any requirement here; one does not mention any day. This is what one would expect, without any rule, and shows we don't need one. Battle of Midway, however, uses 20 April consistently; this appears to be a recent development among the American military, but is not something we should (or can) suppress without wider discussion.
But not only does it work poorly for American articles, it would work very badly for
I support SV on this change it "to emphasize that either format is acceptable [in British articles] — when the word for the month is used, and not just numbers" with the usual proviso not to change from one majority usage to the other, without agreement on the talk page of the article. -- PBS ( talk) 22:19, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Comment: SlimVirgin requested (through a note on my talk page) for the "Dates" section to be unprotected for editing. However, there does not appear to be any sort of consensus developing yet regarding changes to date formats, especially given the long-standing nature of the current guideline. Is there actually something ready for updating the MoS? Otherwise, I am inclined to leave the section protected for now. -- Ckatz chat spy 18:05, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
<--Two things. No, it's not normal that the guideline be locked on such a semi-permanent basis, but I don't see the point of changing it "to see if anyone objected" because we know what the status is; the issue could need an RfC to sort out. Ohconfucius ( talk) 10:53, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
All right, then (although I won't argue to remove edit-protection or to replace Talk-Consensus-Edit with Bold-Revert-Discuss for dates in this Manual), I'll be the one to advocate against required date-format consistency within an article, because it's just not necessary, it serves no function and its absence does little harm. I expect that dates within a single section of an article will often harmonise/harmonize naturally; but in normal writing, I occasionally use more than one format even within a single paragraph. Only when it breaks the flow, or makes comparisons or relations between dates difficult or jerky, should inconsistency be discouraged. An analogy would be the rule of thumb that usually one should avoid writing "five oranges and 23 grapes"; similarly one should generally avoid "proposed on March 17, passed on May 28th and signed on 5 June". Such faulty parallelisms in style usually work themselves out in the normal process of editing and self-editing; I see little reason that date formats need be a special exception. And anything reasonable that reduces the huge, unmanageable and intrusive Manual of Style to something easier for the average editor to learn, grasp and remember allows everyone to concentrate needed attention on genuine sources of ambiguity, obscurity, mistake or confusion. —— Shakescene ( talk) 07:01, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
All good stylebooks pick a date format and stick to it. Can anybody name one that doesn't? (By the way, if the person who used the word baloney above has an extra slice, I would like to have it to put between two halves of a biscuit/muffin for my lunch/supper.) Yours, GeorgeLouis ( talk) 07:13, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
I've reopened this, as we didn't seem to reach a conclusion. I'd like to make a tentative edit the page to see whether there is agreement. To clarify, I'd like to add that either April 20 or 20 April is acceptable in British English, when the word for the month is written out (as opposed to written in numerals). This is factually correct, so I can't see the problem with it. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin talk| contribs 23:47, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) i object again as well, on the same grounds as before: making "a tentative edit the page to see whether there is agreement" doesn't make sense when we're already discussing the proposed change; and "we didn't seem to reach a conclusion" before because there isn't any consensus that this change should be made. i grasp your point about some UK newspapers' styleguides favouring MDY format, but that doesn't mean Wikipedia can't opt for DMY format in articles written in UK English if that compromise works well, which it seems to. Sssoul ( talk) 05:55, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Note to SlimVirgin: SV, you asked about this a while ago, and I explained it then: the entire page was protected due to edit warring. The move to protect only the "Dates" section arose as a way to free up most of the page while still preventing wars over the dates language. When you asked previously, there was no consensus to unlock the dates text. This has nothing to do with me personally, I just happened to be the one who saw the requests. -- Ckatz chat spy 00:58, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
The ISO has proposed the YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM = 24hr clock (or the YYYY/MM/DD) format for international use. The government of Quebec has beeb usung this for years, if not decades, now and the government of Canada is well on it's way of adopting it. Peter Horn 01:51, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Speaking of looking at receipts, I'm the treasurer of a Canadian organization with an international membership, and I'm sitting here looking at a stack of cheques (or checks, if you're American). Most of the dates are ISO format. The ISO date format has the overwhelming advantage that it is the only numeric date format that is unambiguous. If you see "07/08/09", you have no idea whether that means "July 8, 2009", or "7 August 2009" unless you know the author's national origin and his personal preferences. If you see "2009-08-07", you know what it means, whether you express it as "7 August 2009" or "August 7, 2009". The latter three mean the same thing and the differences are only cosmetic. If you're writing in English (some of these cheques are in other languages), spelling the month out is the best solution, but the arguments about Julian/Gregorian calenders and readers being too stupid to figure it out are just nitpicking. RockyMtnGuy ( talk) 18:16, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
First, it is not my intention to start another date autoformatting debate here. Please do not make this a date autoformatting debate.
As a result of recent date formatting and linking polls ( here, here, and here), there appears to be a consensus to (eventually) discontinue the use of date links as a means to achieve date autoformatting. (Whether date autoformatting will continue in another form and the degree of date linking to remain is still being debated elsewhere.) While the long term implications of these polls are yet to be determined, it remains a possibility that linked-date based auto-formatting ($wgUseDynamicDates option) will eventually be turned off – not today, not this week, maybe not even this year. If and when this does occur, auto-formatting of linked dates will cease and, these dates be displayed as coded in the wiki-markup.
In the great majority of cases, this will not not a problem, since most dates are coded in the manner consistent with their intended display. Anonymous users will continue to see what they have always seen, and registered users will see what anonymous users see.
However, there are a significant number of cases where the wiki-markup dates are poorly formatted, i.e., they do not have the proper punctuation or spacing. For example, there are 130,000+ pages with dates of the form "[[month day]] [[year]]
" (missing comma) and 30,000+ pages with "[[day month]], [[year]]
" (unexpected comma), and another 13,000+ pages with various other poorly formatted dates (no space or comma, comma with no space, two or more spaces, etc.). Currently, a side effect of date autoformatting is that even when no date preference is selected, most of these cases are still adjusted to have the appropriate punctuation. For example, both "[[25 May]][[2009]]
" and "[[25 May]] , [[2009]]
" will display the same as "[[25 May]] [[2009]]
" (
25 May
2009 and
25 May , [[2009]). Many of the pages containing these issues are documented
here.
Date auto-formatting also recognizes ISO 8601 like dates for the form "[[2009-05-25]]
" and "[[2009]]-[[05-25]]
" and will reformat them as if they were coded as "[[2009]]-[[May 25|05-25]]
", adding the explicit link targets (
2009-05-25 and
2009-
05-25).
I propose identifying and correcting the formatting for existing poorly formatted dates, so that they contain the correct punctuation as written thus reducing the dependence on date autoformatting. The corrected dates would also follow the "what you see is what you get" principle, which I consider to be good practice. (An editor need not wonder why "[[25 May]], [[2009]]
" displays as "
25 May
2009" or "[[May25]][[2009]]
" displays as "
May 25,
2009".) For ISO 8601 like dates, adjusting the markup so that the presentation is the same, but month-day links would continue to work even if the wgUseDynamicDates option is turned off.
Details:
[[Sept 1]][[2009]]
" which currently displays as "
Sept 1
2009" (abbreviation not recognized).[[MAY 25]][[2009]]
" which currently displays as "
MAY 25
2009" (redlink due to all caps).I am currently developing bot to make these corrections, but would like to get the opinions consensus of those who frequent this forum before I proceed. There have been prior related discussions here. I am purposefully limiting the scope of this proposed change in an attempt to avoid related controversial issues.
Finally, it is not my intention to start another date autoformatting debate here. My intention is to reduce our dependence on date auto-formatting so that our options remain open. Please do not make this a date autoformatting debate. Thank you.
-- Tcncv ( talk) 06:02, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Does Wikipedia have a policy on the chronological ordering of years and dates? I am a bit troubled by the inconsistent listing of years/dates, sometimes the most recent can be found on the top of the list, sometimes on the bottom. I've searched high and low in the Manual of Style and other areas of the Help section without finding the answer, so I'd be very grateful if someone could enlighten me. Thanks. Wameya ( talk) 09:43, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
When I started work a year ago on New York City mayoral elections, the previous editors had already gone from 2009 backwards to 1929, election by election, which makes sense in this case because more readers (rightly or wrongly) are likely to have interest in Michael Bloomberg (Mayor since 2002) and Rudolph Giuliani (1994-2001) than in Robert A. Van Wyck (1898-1901) or Seth Low (1902-3). This has to be balanced against some confusion from the backward chronology. But in creating several summary tables, I started with 1897 or 1834 and worked forwards in time. I think this is an area where general guidance and advice would be very helpful, but any hard-and-fast rule (or anything which by some unstoppable natural process of Wikinevitability evolves in a virtual rule) would be out of place. —— Shakescene ( talk) 20:45, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
I think we understand each other. What would be the general guidance? Suggestion: "Put lists of dates in chronological order. Sort them from oldest to newest unless it makes more sense to sort them the other way round". That's clumsy but just a starter. SimonTrew ( talk) 21:45, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
And surely it's not hard to look at a list and realise it goes up or down in chronology? SimonTrew ( talk) 21:48, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Garion it makes more sense for exactly the point User:Shakescene made: the reader. They are more likely to want to read about the current or previous mayor than the one from the century ago, and mutatis mutandis for football results or whatever. Aren't we here editing to make things the best we can for readers? SimonTrew ( talk) 21:51, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
In the case of long lists with commentaries or details, you're really balancing two inconveniences: unnatural order vs time to reach what interests the reader most (or first). The article or listing of New York City mayoral elections is quite long, so it makes sense to put what interests the largest number of likely readers, and about which we have the widest range of reliable information, closest to the top. (The election of 1897 is interesting enough to click or scroll down for, but it won't attract so many initial readers.) However in my overall tables which take up one screen (or at most 2-3), chronological order is more convenient and best for showing changes over time. I'd think the same considerations would apply to something like a summary of all the FIFA World Cup Finals since 1930. Guidance to an editor for these kinds of question can be quite helpful, but a single rule (or even set of rules) wouldn't fit. —— Shakescene ( talk) 00:31, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't know if this is of relevance but I am just throwing this in while I think of it. If you look at UK railway station articles (e.g. Dullingham I am deliberately choosing one I know and is short) the current information is listed before the previous information. That just makes common sense, I think. I kinda agree with Garion that common sense is not as common as all that i.e. others have a different common sense, but anyone looking at that article can find where the route runs first without scrolling down. As I say I deliberately chose a very short one but I am just using it as an example, this pattern is followed in all railway station articles for the UK (no doubt there are some exceptions because of oddities or errors but this is the rule of thumb). I just mention it as another example in case it is useful, and probably have not put it very well. SimonTrew ( talk) 16:24, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Since pitching my question, I've been following the discussion sitting on my hands lest I should declare my personal preference (in certain cases) for newest to oldest lists. Of course, my preference is as irrelevant in this as any other’s personal preference, be it an editor or a reader. What I make of your exchange, however, is that a WP should perhaps be flexible enough that the contributor make a decision on the matter (thanks for the NYC mayor and FIFA WC Finals examples, Shakescene, I think you make a good point there). Now back to my initial frustration, is this already implicit in the Manual, or is there a need for formal clarification on the matter? (I’m a Freshman editor, sorry if I’m not up to speed on protocol here.) Wameya ( talk) 22:09, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
¶ Let me say in defence of Garion96's point, that I don't actually like the way that New York City mayoral elections is organized because I have to keep thinking backwards. However, the newest-first order (2009-1929) which I found when I first saw it seemed most practical for most likely readers. If Garion's interested in collaborating on a demonstrative reconstruction (on one of my sandbox pages or one of his or hers) of the mayoral election page with oldest-first (starting in 1897), I'd be very interested to see how it would look. —— Shakescene ( talk) 20:06, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
¶ Perhaps in the case of those chronological tables where this is feasible, there might be language recommending sortable tables for just the reasons adduced above. Newest-first is good for some things, but oldest-first is more natural and easier to follow mentally through time. Where the editors can offer the reader a choice of orders to suit his or her needs, we might suggest doing so. —— Shakescene ( talk) 05:24, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi. Just a note that you can have a hidden sort value in a table. For example, instead of a table such as:
{|class="wikitable sortable" ||Number ||Date |- ||1 ||4 Jan 2009 |- ||2 ||30 Jan 2009 |}
which produces:
Number | Date |
1 | 4 Jan 2009 |
2 | 30 Jan 2009 |
you can have:
{|class="wikitable sortable" ||Number ||Date |- ||1 ||{{Hs|2009-01-04}}4 Jan 2009 |- ||2 ||{{Hs|2009-01-30}}30 Jan 2009 |}
which produces:
Number | Date |
1 | 4 Jan 2009 |
2 | 30 Jan 2009 |
In the second case, the Date column sort behaves as expected (try sorting both date columns in ascending order to see the difference). For an example of this technique used big-time, have a look at List of compositions by George Frideric Handel. Cheers. HWV258 22:56, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
{{
Hs}}
template appears to be a recent duplication of functionality available in the {{
sort}}
template. Templates {{
dts}}
for dates, {{
nts}}
for numbers, and {{
sortname}}
are also commonly used templates for sorting. I suggest we not promote duplicate functionality. --
Tcncv (
talk)
04:28, 28 May 2009 (UTC)This relates to a question I posed on the Template:Convert talk page. Which one (assuming only one) is proper: "0.0074 acres" or "0.0074 acre"? Based on my my first-grade teacher's rule that the plural is for values greater than one (also less than -1, I presume), then singular is proper. However, because all such decimal examples start with 0, does the "zero takes the plural" standard govern? My example is based on the phrase "containing 0.0074 acres more or less" from Calvin Coolidge's proclamation #1745 (1925 September 5) establishing Father Millet Cross National Monument. However, the current U.S. Government Printing Office Style Mannual gives an example of "0.25 inch" ( Chapter 12.9d). — Eoghanacht talk 01:37, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
For some reason I feel that the plural is more "natural" except for phrases which use the indeterminate article right before the noun, e.g. "zero point five kilograms" but "half a kilogram" (probably because it's more-or-less what my native tongue does). OTOH on The Feynman Lectures on Physics we read stuff such as "1.782 × 10−27 gram" and "10−12 second". Might it depend on whether the writer expects the reader to pronounce it as "ten to the minus twelve seconds" or as "a trillionth of a second"? Or is it just another American–British difference? I begin to suspect the latter. -- A. di M. (formerly Army1987) — Deeds, not words. 10:23, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
From here and the other talk page, there does not seem to be enough concensus to set a rule one way or the other. From a programming perspective for the template, I presume it is easiest just to leave it as-is (plural). — Eoghanacht talk 15:03, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Hello. I am working on a proposal for a bot to carefully unlink dates, hopefully clearing main remaining dispute. I would unlink full autoformatting-style dates such as 5 November 1989, while leaving e.g. 1989 and November 5 alone. I would be happy if you would take a look at Wikipedia:Full-date unlinking bot and comment. It is still just a draft, but everyone is invited to point out mistakes and suggest improvements to the proposal. I plan to start an community RFC soon, which will be widely advertised and open to general opinion. -- Apoc2400 ( talk) 19:31, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
As of 22:04, 29 May 2009 (UTC), Arbcom has not yet approved of a proposal that would restrict date delinking in general, only for specific users. Dabomb87 ( talk) 22:04, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
This revert summary linked here, but I can't find the exception it refers to. Is it just me? — JAO • T • C 17:53, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
8¼ mi or 8.25 mi? I don't see this covered in the manual itself. Thanks for any help. — Anonymous Dissident Talk 13:18, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
I think fractions are good when something is defined as a fraction, especially if it's thirds. There was a bit of discussion of this at Talk:1950s Topps/Archive 1. -- Apoc2400 ( talk) 18:39, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I still don't see consensus for the copy there; it was not actually discussed in the most recent RfC. I don't see consensus for my revision, either, but it would make more difficult semi-vandalism creating a fait accompli by removing the relevant information from the year article, and then unlinking the year. I'm not intending to imply that these edits have consensus, but I think they should be made.
I don't see a specific finding in any of the RfCs that years of birth and death should not be linked, but there is clearly no consensus that they should be linked, even though I believe Wikipedia would be improved by those links. I see a weak consensus that Saint Patrick's Day should link to March 17, which seems to be contradicted by the text, although "as any other link" seems ambiguous as to whether it means "as any other date-link" (in other words, subject to the rest of the paragraph), or "as to any other link" (disregarding this paragraph, and applying only the general linking guidelines).
The separate question of whether the birth year and death years, or the year of creation of an object (album, song, bridge, whatever) in infoboxes or whether the year of succession should be linked in succession boxes hasn't been brought up yet, and I believe it needs to be. The text is also ambiguous, in my opinion, as to whether 2008 in sports should have month-day links, or links such as [[2005 in sports|2005]]. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
References to commemorative days ( Saint Patrick's Day) are treated as for any other link. Intrinsically chronological articles ( 1789, January, and 1940s) may themselves contain linked chronological items.
Oh for fuck's sake, not another one of these. Can't you even wait until ARBCOM is done? This is pretty damned near trolling at this point. This also applies to the user below. Headbomb { ταλκ κοντριβς – WP Physics} 21:24, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
I tend not to agree with the line "The form since 1996 should be used in favor of 1996–present in article text and infoboxes." in the " other date ranges" section... particularly in the case of infoboxes.
In most infoboxes the value is set to "Years active:" or some other form thereof, implying that a year range be specified. Something like "since 1996" is not a range per se, as opposed to "1996–present", which implies a range, i.e. "1996 through to the present". Also, I think placing the year first (before the word "since") looks better and provides the needed information more prominently. What are thoughts on this? Has this already been discussed widely? It should be noted that I have no problem with "since 1996" in the article text itself, as certainly "since 1996" flows better in paragraphs.
And just to add, I don't see the MOS's issue with noting "–present" in date ranges. Sure, "the present" is a constantly moving target, but we know that "present" will simply be replaced with the appropriate date/year when the tenure is completed; i.e. "1996–present" will become "1996–2009" (example) when appropriate. — `CRAZY`(lN)`SANE` 20:45, 4 June 2009 (UTC)