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talk page for discussing
Manual of Style/China- and Chinese-related articles and anything related to its purposes and tasks. |
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This page has archives. Sections older than 180 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 6 sections are present. |
{{
uuline}}
is likely the best technique we have when we would like to emphasize a character:This should be a logical last resort, though.Posthumous name
Emperor Qintian Lüdao Yingyi Shengshen Xuanwen Guangwu Hongren Daxiao Su
欽天履道英毅聖神宣文廣武洪仁大孝肅皇帝
Remsense 诉 04:21, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
During the GAN for Chinese characters, @ Kusma pointed out sections that really should include the characters and romanization for certain terms, even though they're linked—e.g. regular script in the the § History section. I agree: perhaps some class of exception to this guideline should be mentioned, while always being mindful of WP:CREEP. I'm not sure exactly what that class should be—perhaps "within a broad article, while summary style–ing what could be considered its subarticles", or "when omission would be conspicuous or confusing in light of other terms that are linked within an article" Remsense 诉 02:39, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
Wiktionary
WP:SUMMARY
Greetings! Over the past few years, there have been no objections to converting Latin letters and Arabic numerals to ASCII from their full-width forms when they appear in horizontal Chinese, Korean, or Japanese text. I've raised it on MOS and Wikiproject talk pages and made many cleanup edits to articles. I'm making a push to finish that cleanup, and I've been noticing that punctuation, currency symbols, and spaces have the same problem. It looks weird to have the full-width versions mixed in, and they sometimes leak into English-language text. My plan was to start converting punctuation and currency symbols in horizontal text (except where the characters themselves are being discussed) when the July 1 database dump becomes available in a week or two. If you have any questions, objections, concerns, or suggestions, please let me know! Open-circle full stop is not included; the affected characters are: " # $ % & ' * + - / @ \ ^ _ ` ¢ ¥ ₩ < = > | ¦ and the space character. -- Beland ( talk) 17:51, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
<blockquote>
, |quote=
, etc? Or will direct quotes be avoided and only article prose affected?
Folly Mox (
talk)
21:16, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
ic
as well as px
and em
—with 1ic
equal to the width of a fullwidth character for practical purposes,
and more technically equal to the used advance measure of the "水" glyph (CJK water ideograph, U+6C34), found in the font used to render it. I think that means it's equal to the height of 水 instead when the text is being rendered vertically, neat. Can't figure out what ic
stands for though, other than that i
is probably "ideograph".
Remsense
诉
21:34, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
Where "China" or the "People's Republic of China" is used, it should not be changed arbitrarily. In many contexts, the terms are interchangeable: if China and People's Republic of China both seem appropriate, editors should use their own discretion.
This seems to be wrong. China is the WP:COMMONNAME, so it should be used unless there's a good reason not to. Remsense 诉 01:19, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
I think we should encourage articles to list pinyin with tone marks in parentheses even if the term itself is just pinyin without tone marks. It might seem redundant, but we can't just ditch showing the tone marks. They're essential to knowing how the term is pronounced in Chinese. SilverStar54 ( talk) 07:36, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
{{
Infobox Chinese}}
if the term is the article's subject. Including characters is justified because it's necessary for disambiguation, even if they are not useful to most readers. Including identical pinyin but with tone marks is additionally useful to almost no one, as readers will either not find their meaning to have much utility, or they will already be able to read the characters and in all likelihood derive the tones from them. The sliver in between has to be very small.{{
Infobox Chinese}}
is a general compromise that helps a lot to address a particularly needful case.
Remsense
诉
07:49, 3 July 2024 (UTC)romanised terms used in running text should omit [tone marks]after Tone marks should only appear within templates, parentheticals, or infoboxes?To me, using pinyin without diacritics inside the
|py=
parameter of {{
lang-zh}} and its aliases seems fully incorrect, and seeing pinyin with tone marks in running prose feels a bit jarring, but it's not something I ever copyedit out.What are some examples that have led us to this thread? It's been a busy couple weeks and I'm not really looped in.
Folly Mox (
talk)
10:08, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
|py=
parameter as stated above|py=
parameter with tone marks, unless the second example is going to be rewritten "Zēng Guófān (
traditional Chinese: 曾國藩;
simplified Chinese: 曾国藩;
Wade–Giles: Tseng1 Kuo2-fan1)", which seems less better. Of course, ideally this would all be relegated to {{
Infobox Chinese}}, but if no infobox is present, we should include the pronunciation somehow.
Folly Mox (
talk)
10:39, 3 July 2024 (UTC) edited 10:58, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
{{
Infobox Chinese}}
is a clear common-sense exception to that much of the time—the primary situation in my head is for the article subject itself, where the diacritical pinyin is assuredly listed. Is this a meaningful distinction for those concerned?
Remsense
诉
17:48, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
I think I've never seen these on en.wp (only on zh.wp and ja.wp), and the guidance ruby is not used for body text on Wikipedia seems accurate and appropriate. The explanation that follows, as it would display at too small a size, may be outdated. Maybe this was true for older skins, but in Minerva and Vector 2022, the text is no smaller than the text of a footnote or citation. Maybe we could trim that bit, or use an alternative explanation like as it disrupts line spacing
?
Or, maybe it's my device, and it actually does display super teeny tiny for other people. Folly Mox ( talk) 10:19, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Template:ill does a reasonable job for most languages at providing sister language links for redlinked terms on en.wp. For Chinese, I find it totally useless, in every case worse than just including the native characters with no link to zh.wp at all. It creates a redlinked romanised term whilst completely hiding the characters: hover or long press displays the zh.wp url with the characters' unicode codepoints escaped for url compatibility, so if I want to know what / whom the redlink is supposed to indicate, I have to leave the website to a different Wikipedia, which feels like very bad design.
My method is usually linking the characters to zh.wp, but I know this isn't shared by everyone. Sometimes alternatively I'll just add the characters in {{ lang-zh}} or similar following the transclusion of {{ ill}}, although this feels inelegant.
What are people's thoughts on this? Should we provide any MOS guidance about it? Folly Mox ( talk) 10:28, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
I was looking at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/China- and Chinese-related articles and I've noticed "publisher=Wenzi gaige chubanshe", with the following MoS note: "For publishing houses without a common name in English, their names are transliterated without tone marks, but not translated. ". Errr. Why? I think we should include original Chinese characters, at min, and why not both the transliterated and translated title? For example, it is important to tell the reader that something may be, for example, a publishing house or an academic journal. There are academic journals with only Chinese names, for example. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:17, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Many general-use infoboxes have a |native_name=
parameter somewhere. Would it be worth specifying that listing the same native forms in both {{
Infobox Chinese}}
and an article's primary infobox is redundant and usually undesirable?
Moreover, the use of {{
Infobox royalty}}
in the Chinese context has been killing me: I'm not even sure I would remove the native form conventionally placed right at the top (
cf.
Kangxi Emperor or any other emperor), but I'm leaning towards that being ideal if we're not even making |native_name=
a proper parameter for that one.
Remsense
诉
23:00, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
unavoidable; I'd call them
desirable. Our educational value is significantly enhanced by including them where they're not too obtrusive. Folly Mox ( talk) 00:24, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
{{
Infobox royalty}}
case is plausible—I just wish it was its own parameter.weI'm not really volunteering myself because I don't have any background coding templates here and am not really sure where to look for guidance, but as a hypothesis:We could create a template that wrapped {{ Infobox royalty}} or {{ Infobox officeholder}} and bundled {{ Infobox Chinese}} underneath? I'm not sure if that's technically possible or if we'd have to wrap the first template and just output the second based on input parameters.But the idea would be that the native name goes up top, then the main infobox, then pronunciations at the bottom, without duplicating the native name. Or, if that's impossible to do, create a single template that doesn't wrap anything, but accepts all the parameters of {{ Infobox royalty}}, {{ Infobox officeholder}}, and {{ Infobox Chinese}}, and spits out a single box for every applicable biography? Folly Mox ( talk) 11:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
|module=
, which can contain {{
infobox Chinese}}
, which bundles it at the bottom, whereas |native_lang_name=
would go at the top. (e.g:
Michael Nylan, with a diffent infobox)
Kanguole
11:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
|native_name=
to the top of Infoboxen royalty and officeholder, then |module=Infobox Chinese
them and remove the |c=
from the child templates. Or construct a wrapper that does the same if consensus to change the widely used templates cannot be achieved.
Folly Mox (
talk)
13:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)This is the
talk page for discussing
Manual of Style/China- and Chinese-related articles and anything related to its purposes and tasks. |
|
![]() | This project page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 |
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 180 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 6 sections are present. |
{{
uuline}}
is likely the best technique we have when we would like to emphasize a character:This should be a logical last resort, though.Posthumous name
Emperor Qintian Lüdao Yingyi Shengshen Xuanwen Guangwu Hongren Daxiao Su
欽天履道英毅聖神宣文廣武洪仁大孝肅皇帝
Remsense 诉 04:21, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
During the GAN for Chinese characters, @ Kusma pointed out sections that really should include the characters and romanization for certain terms, even though they're linked—e.g. regular script in the the § History section. I agree: perhaps some class of exception to this guideline should be mentioned, while always being mindful of WP:CREEP. I'm not sure exactly what that class should be—perhaps "within a broad article, while summary style–ing what could be considered its subarticles", or "when omission would be conspicuous or confusing in light of other terms that are linked within an article" Remsense 诉 02:39, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
Wiktionary
WP:SUMMARY
Greetings! Over the past few years, there have been no objections to converting Latin letters and Arabic numerals to ASCII from their full-width forms when they appear in horizontal Chinese, Korean, or Japanese text. I've raised it on MOS and Wikiproject talk pages and made many cleanup edits to articles. I'm making a push to finish that cleanup, and I've been noticing that punctuation, currency symbols, and spaces have the same problem. It looks weird to have the full-width versions mixed in, and they sometimes leak into English-language text. My plan was to start converting punctuation and currency symbols in horizontal text (except where the characters themselves are being discussed) when the July 1 database dump becomes available in a week or two. If you have any questions, objections, concerns, or suggestions, please let me know! Open-circle full stop is not included; the affected characters are: " # $ % & ' * + - / @ \ ^ _ ` ¢ ¥ ₩ < = > | ¦ and the space character. -- Beland ( talk) 17:51, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
<blockquote>
, |quote=
, etc? Or will direct quotes be avoided and only article prose affected?
Folly Mox (
talk)
21:16, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
ic
as well as px
and em
—with 1ic
equal to the width of a fullwidth character for practical purposes,
and more technically equal to the used advance measure of the "水" glyph (CJK water ideograph, U+6C34), found in the font used to render it. I think that means it's equal to the height of 水 instead when the text is being rendered vertically, neat. Can't figure out what ic
stands for though, other than that i
is probably "ideograph".
Remsense
诉
21:34, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
Where "China" or the "People's Republic of China" is used, it should not be changed arbitrarily. In many contexts, the terms are interchangeable: if China and People's Republic of China both seem appropriate, editors should use their own discretion.
This seems to be wrong. China is the WP:COMMONNAME, so it should be used unless there's a good reason not to. Remsense 诉 01:19, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
I think we should encourage articles to list pinyin with tone marks in parentheses even if the term itself is just pinyin without tone marks. It might seem redundant, but we can't just ditch showing the tone marks. They're essential to knowing how the term is pronounced in Chinese. SilverStar54 ( talk) 07:36, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
{{
Infobox Chinese}}
if the term is the article's subject. Including characters is justified because it's necessary for disambiguation, even if they are not useful to most readers. Including identical pinyin but with tone marks is additionally useful to almost no one, as readers will either not find their meaning to have much utility, or they will already be able to read the characters and in all likelihood derive the tones from them. The sliver in between has to be very small.{{
Infobox Chinese}}
is a general compromise that helps a lot to address a particularly needful case.
Remsense
诉
07:49, 3 July 2024 (UTC)romanised terms used in running text should omit [tone marks]after Tone marks should only appear within templates, parentheticals, or infoboxes?To me, using pinyin without diacritics inside the
|py=
parameter of {{
lang-zh}} and its aliases seems fully incorrect, and seeing pinyin with tone marks in running prose feels a bit jarring, but it's not something I ever copyedit out.What are some examples that have led us to this thread? It's been a busy couple weeks and I'm not really looped in.
Folly Mox (
talk)
10:08, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
|py=
parameter as stated above|py=
parameter with tone marks, unless the second example is going to be rewritten "Zēng Guófān (
traditional Chinese: 曾國藩;
simplified Chinese: 曾国藩;
Wade–Giles: Tseng1 Kuo2-fan1)", which seems less better. Of course, ideally this would all be relegated to {{
Infobox Chinese}}, but if no infobox is present, we should include the pronunciation somehow.
Folly Mox (
talk)
10:39, 3 July 2024 (UTC) edited 10:58, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
{{
Infobox Chinese}}
is a clear common-sense exception to that much of the time—the primary situation in my head is for the article subject itself, where the diacritical pinyin is assuredly listed. Is this a meaningful distinction for those concerned?
Remsense
诉
17:48, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
I think I've never seen these on en.wp (only on zh.wp and ja.wp), and the guidance ruby is not used for body text on Wikipedia seems accurate and appropriate. The explanation that follows, as it would display at too small a size, may be outdated. Maybe this was true for older skins, but in Minerva and Vector 2022, the text is no smaller than the text of a footnote or citation. Maybe we could trim that bit, or use an alternative explanation like as it disrupts line spacing
?
Or, maybe it's my device, and it actually does display super teeny tiny for other people. Folly Mox ( talk) 10:19, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Template:ill does a reasonable job for most languages at providing sister language links for redlinked terms on en.wp. For Chinese, I find it totally useless, in every case worse than just including the native characters with no link to zh.wp at all. It creates a redlinked romanised term whilst completely hiding the characters: hover or long press displays the zh.wp url with the characters' unicode codepoints escaped for url compatibility, so if I want to know what / whom the redlink is supposed to indicate, I have to leave the website to a different Wikipedia, which feels like very bad design.
My method is usually linking the characters to zh.wp, but I know this isn't shared by everyone. Sometimes alternatively I'll just add the characters in {{ lang-zh}} or similar following the transclusion of {{ ill}}, although this feels inelegant.
What are people's thoughts on this? Should we provide any MOS guidance about it? Folly Mox ( talk) 10:28, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
I was looking at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/China- and Chinese-related articles and I've noticed "publisher=Wenzi gaige chubanshe", with the following MoS note: "For publishing houses without a common name in English, their names are transliterated without tone marks, but not translated. ". Errr. Why? I think we should include original Chinese characters, at min, and why not both the transliterated and translated title? For example, it is important to tell the reader that something may be, for example, a publishing house or an academic journal. There are academic journals with only Chinese names, for example. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:17, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Many general-use infoboxes have a |native_name=
parameter somewhere. Would it be worth specifying that listing the same native forms in both {{
Infobox Chinese}}
and an article's primary infobox is redundant and usually undesirable?
Moreover, the use of {{
Infobox royalty}}
in the Chinese context has been killing me: I'm not even sure I would remove the native form conventionally placed right at the top (
cf.
Kangxi Emperor or any other emperor), but I'm leaning towards that being ideal if we're not even making |native_name=
a proper parameter for that one.
Remsense
诉
23:00, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
unavoidable; I'd call them
desirable. Our educational value is significantly enhanced by including them where they're not too obtrusive. Folly Mox ( talk) 00:24, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
{{
Infobox royalty}}
case is plausible—I just wish it was its own parameter.weI'm not really volunteering myself because I don't have any background coding templates here and am not really sure where to look for guidance, but as a hypothesis:We could create a template that wrapped {{ Infobox royalty}} or {{ Infobox officeholder}} and bundled {{ Infobox Chinese}} underneath? I'm not sure if that's technically possible or if we'd have to wrap the first template and just output the second based on input parameters.But the idea would be that the native name goes up top, then the main infobox, then pronunciations at the bottom, without duplicating the native name. Or, if that's impossible to do, create a single template that doesn't wrap anything, but accepts all the parameters of {{ Infobox royalty}}, {{ Infobox officeholder}}, and {{ Infobox Chinese}}, and spits out a single box for every applicable biography? Folly Mox ( talk) 11:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
|module=
, which can contain {{
infobox Chinese}}
, which bundles it at the bottom, whereas |native_lang_name=
would go at the top. (e.g:
Michael Nylan, with a diffent infobox)
Kanguole
11:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
|native_name=
to the top of Infoboxen royalty and officeholder, then |module=Infobox Chinese
them and remove the |c=
from the child templates. Or construct a wrapper that does the same if consensus to change the widely used templates cannot be achieved.
Folly Mox (
talk)
13:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)