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I was recently accused of canvassing when I notified an editor on his talk page that his reaction was needed to an accusation that I had edit warred with him. Based on this, I was also accused of probably canvassing by email, too, to get reactions from people that were involved in the situations where I was being accused of bad behavior. I was also accused of canvassing when I left a note on my talk page for any talk-page stalkers that might see it (which, yes, I hoped would influence the outcome of the discussion). So, my question is this: What are the rules of defense when accusations are being discussed at WP:AN/I? How can one summon witnesses for the defense in light of the current wording of the canvassing provisions? Dicklyon ( talk) 20:54, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
The audience must not be selected on the basis of their opinionsand
Notifications must be polite, neutrally worded with a neutral title, clear in presentation, and brief. Notifying one of the parties under discussion is a normal, expected thing to do, but it ought to be done neutrally. isaacl ( talk) 03:04, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
it might be useful to have a section on what kinds of "self defense" actions would be acceptableI didn't realize you were suggesting to change the guidance such that it would be permissible to issue a non-neutral notification to seek others to defend your position. I do appreciate the desire to do this; when I think my actions are being entirely misinterpreted, it would be nice for me to be able to ask someone I trust to provide feedback, but this could be interpreted as inappropriate notification. For better or worse, I don't get the sense that the English Wikipedia community is willing to change this aspect of the guidance. English Wikipedia's decision-making traditions are vulnerable to vote stacking, and problematic notifications can make things worse. isaacl ( talk) 04:06, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
At Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Proposal: Appropriate notifications I'm talking about doing a proposal to add a bit at the beginning of the appropriate notifications section to say some notifications are best practice, i.e. an editor should normally do them not just "An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion". Dmcq ( talk) 13:03, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
The proposal is fairly well defined now and I'll try putting it here. There is a lot of discussion before it with some objections I think are a bit obscure - you're wecome to contribute and give your ideas either way. Dmcq ( talk) 18:44, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
It is now an RfC as it needs wider input. WP:VPR#RfC: Appropriate notifications WP:CANVASS should list some notifications as best practice to send, as well as its current 'An editor who may wish to draw a wider audience...' for the appropriate notifications it lists. The main reasoning is based on WP:Consensus#Pitfalls and errors. Dmcq ( talk) 02:05, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Supposed users form a hidden group on Facebook or Whatsapp, how can we deal with the canvassing if they orientate and vote biasedly in some discussions? Alphama ( talk) 03:03, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
(1) An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion can place a message at any of the following:
Does this mean "at any one (but not more than one) of the following", or "at any one or more of the following"? Could the sentence be revised to make this more clear?
(2) The audience must not be selected on the basis of their opinions—for example, if notices are sent to editors who previously supported deleting an article, then identical notices should be sent to those who supported keeping it. Do not send notices to too many users, [...]
I sense a conflict here and again request clarification. Before reading this, I compiled a list of previous editors of the page concerned, there being a few more than a hundred. I didn't include some of the editors, not because of the content of their edits but because their edit was very minor, or came from an IP address with no contributions link, or had "bot" in the name of the editor. The list should thus serve from the viewpoint of neutrality. I could go back and include even the minor one-timers and the bots, though this seems unadvisable since the given example is of editors who have made substantial edits to the topic or article. There seems to be a possible conflict between selection and quantity, however. If I don't notify all the past editors of the page to avoid writing to too many (however many that is – this too could perhaps be made more clear), then I have to make a selection, and selecting seems problematic. If I select using some random method (none of which I have in mind), what's to say it's really random? And if I select an equal number of editors expressing a certain disposition and those expressing another, then what's to say I didn't include the ones I like and exclude the ones I didn't, even if I included the same number from both categories? Would it be best to simply notify all the prior editors, including the minor one-timers and the bots, or should I use my present list in which these aren't included (which would be in accordance with the example). Thanks for any information and/or advice, and I hope the uncertainty in the two points mentioned can eventually be clarified in the WP:APPNOTE text. If one or more persons have asked about these things before, that would seem even more appropriate. – Roy McCoy ( talk) 19:33, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
... for discussion, here (words copied from an arbcase where five of the seven needed arbs had supported before the case was closed) SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:39, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Contacting a broad range of editors, such as through RfC, is an important step in dispute resolution. In addition, the Help:Notifications or "ping" system is important to allow editors to know where they are being discussed. However, biased canvassing, including inappropriate use of the ping system, distorts the consensus process and is disruptive. Signs of biased canvassing include only contacting one side of a dispute or selectively contacting individuals who had previously supported the editor. If the content of a "ping"ed post would not be appropriate on a user talk page comment, the "ping" would be inappropriate canvassing achieved via a different technology than a talk page post. Editors should take care not to overuse pings when they would otherwise not notify these editors; canvassing rules apply equally to pings like they do to any other form of message.
Posting an excessive number of messages or pings to individual users, or to users with no significant connection to the topic at hand.And
Posting messages or pings to users selected based on their known opinions. The section on Votestacking is already sufficiently broadly-worded
Votestacking is an attempt to sway consensus by selectively notifying editors who have or are thought to have a predetermined point of view or opinion (which may be determined, among other ways, from a userpage notice, such as a userbox, or from user categorization), and thus encouraging them to participate in the discussion), since a ping is a form of notification for that purpose, but it could be clarified there as well if there are editors insisting that pings are not a form of notification. To a certain extent I'm leery of clarifying things too specifically because editors might then use that to say "well, we specified pings here but not there, therefore it's not covered." But if there seems to be confusion then it's important to hammer it out eventually. -- Aquillion ( talk) 17:17, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
I wonder if it would be a good idea to name the Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard in this page, as an example of appropriate notifications. We get occasional complaints about people posting at FTN about conspiracy theories and pseudoscience, and people might worry less if they knew that this really was an okay thing. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 21:55, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
The talk page or noticeboard of one or more WikiProjects or other Wikipedia collaborations which may have interest in the topic under discussion.isaacl ( talk) 21:59, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
There is an interesting thread on the GSoW group, it's already archived though. See : Continued discussion about GSoW. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 19:30, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
- On the user talk pages of concerned editors. Examples include:
- Editors who have made substantial edits to the topic or article
- Editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics)
- Editors known for expertise in the field
- Editors who have asked to be kept informed
Under current wording, it seems like quite a few user talk page notifications are allowed. Four bullets are given, and this covers a wide variety of folks. Does this reflect current consensus though? Would it be better to tighten this to suggest that user talk notifications should be kept to a minimum, in favor of other more neutral notifications such as WikiProjects and noticeboards? Here is my suggested change. Replace the above with:
- On the user talk pages of a small number of key stakeholders, such as page creators.
I chose page creators to mention specifically as I believe this to reflect current practice (e.g. when notifying of AFDs) and is uncontroversial. Thoughts? – Novem Linguae ( talk) 14:26, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
Is a post on another language wiki to opine in an English Wikipedia RFC considered canvassing? – Novem Linguae ( talk) 16:48, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that if a top contributor wants to notify other top contributors (especially when all top contributors are likely to be on the same side of the debate as the notifier), the best practice is for them to ping from the discussion rather than post to talk pages. It feels more transparent to me. I'm not interested in making a rule. Just noting a best practice. Proposed change: From
Note: It is good practice to leave a note at the discussion itself about notifications which have been made, particularly if made to individual users.
to
Best Practices: leave a note at the discussion itself about notifications which have been made, particularly if made to individual users, and particularly if those users are likely to be in agreement with you. Or, ping from the discussion with an explanation, "Notifying top contributors". valereee ( talk) 18:03, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I was recently accused of canvassing when I notified an editor on his talk page that his reaction was needed to an accusation that I had edit warred with him. Based on this, I was also accused of probably canvassing by email, too, to get reactions from people that were involved in the situations where I was being accused of bad behavior. I was also accused of canvassing when I left a note on my talk page for any talk-page stalkers that might see it (which, yes, I hoped would influence the outcome of the discussion). So, my question is this: What are the rules of defense when accusations are being discussed at WP:AN/I? How can one summon witnesses for the defense in light of the current wording of the canvassing provisions? Dicklyon ( talk) 20:54, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
The audience must not be selected on the basis of their opinionsand
Notifications must be polite, neutrally worded with a neutral title, clear in presentation, and brief. Notifying one of the parties under discussion is a normal, expected thing to do, but it ought to be done neutrally. isaacl ( talk) 03:04, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
it might be useful to have a section on what kinds of "self defense" actions would be acceptableI didn't realize you were suggesting to change the guidance such that it would be permissible to issue a non-neutral notification to seek others to defend your position. I do appreciate the desire to do this; when I think my actions are being entirely misinterpreted, it would be nice for me to be able to ask someone I trust to provide feedback, but this could be interpreted as inappropriate notification. For better or worse, I don't get the sense that the English Wikipedia community is willing to change this aspect of the guidance. English Wikipedia's decision-making traditions are vulnerable to vote stacking, and problematic notifications can make things worse. isaacl ( talk) 04:06, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
At Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Proposal: Appropriate notifications I'm talking about doing a proposal to add a bit at the beginning of the appropriate notifications section to say some notifications are best practice, i.e. an editor should normally do them not just "An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion". Dmcq ( talk) 13:03, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
The proposal is fairly well defined now and I'll try putting it here. There is a lot of discussion before it with some objections I think are a bit obscure - you're wecome to contribute and give your ideas either way. Dmcq ( talk) 18:44, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
It is now an RfC as it needs wider input. WP:VPR#RfC: Appropriate notifications WP:CANVASS should list some notifications as best practice to send, as well as its current 'An editor who may wish to draw a wider audience...' for the appropriate notifications it lists. The main reasoning is based on WP:Consensus#Pitfalls and errors. Dmcq ( talk) 02:05, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Supposed users form a hidden group on Facebook or Whatsapp, how can we deal with the canvassing if they orientate and vote biasedly in some discussions? Alphama ( talk) 03:03, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
(1) An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion can place a message at any of the following:
Does this mean "at any one (but not more than one) of the following", or "at any one or more of the following"? Could the sentence be revised to make this more clear?
(2) The audience must not be selected on the basis of their opinions—for example, if notices are sent to editors who previously supported deleting an article, then identical notices should be sent to those who supported keeping it. Do not send notices to too many users, [...]
I sense a conflict here and again request clarification. Before reading this, I compiled a list of previous editors of the page concerned, there being a few more than a hundred. I didn't include some of the editors, not because of the content of their edits but because their edit was very minor, or came from an IP address with no contributions link, or had "bot" in the name of the editor. The list should thus serve from the viewpoint of neutrality. I could go back and include even the minor one-timers and the bots, though this seems unadvisable since the given example is of editors who have made substantial edits to the topic or article. There seems to be a possible conflict between selection and quantity, however. If I don't notify all the past editors of the page to avoid writing to too many (however many that is – this too could perhaps be made more clear), then I have to make a selection, and selecting seems problematic. If I select using some random method (none of which I have in mind), what's to say it's really random? And if I select an equal number of editors expressing a certain disposition and those expressing another, then what's to say I didn't include the ones I like and exclude the ones I didn't, even if I included the same number from both categories? Would it be best to simply notify all the prior editors, including the minor one-timers and the bots, or should I use my present list in which these aren't included (which would be in accordance with the example). Thanks for any information and/or advice, and I hope the uncertainty in the two points mentioned can eventually be clarified in the WP:APPNOTE text. If one or more persons have asked about these things before, that would seem even more appropriate. – Roy McCoy ( talk) 19:33, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
... for discussion, here (words copied from an arbcase where five of the seven needed arbs had supported before the case was closed) SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:39, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Contacting a broad range of editors, such as through RfC, is an important step in dispute resolution. In addition, the Help:Notifications or "ping" system is important to allow editors to know where they are being discussed. However, biased canvassing, including inappropriate use of the ping system, distorts the consensus process and is disruptive. Signs of biased canvassing include only contacting one side of a dispute or selectively contacting individuals who had previously supported the editor. If the content of a "ping"ed post would not be appropriate on a user talk page comment, the "ping" would be inappropriate canvassing achieved via a different technology than a talk page post. Editors should take care not to overuse pings when they would otherwise not notify these editors; canvassing rules apply equally to pings like they do to any other form of message.
Posting an excessive number of messages or pings to individual users, or to users with no significant connection to the topic at hand.And
Posting messages or pings to users selected based on their known opinions. The section on Votestacking is already sufficiently broadly-worded
Votestacking is an attempt to sway consensus by selectively notifying editors who have or are thought to have a predetermined point of view or opinion (which may be determined, among other ways, from a userpage notice, such as a userbox, or from user categorization), and thus encouraging them to participate in the discussion), since a ping is a form of notification for that purpose, but it could be clarified there as well if there are editors insisting that pings are not a form of notification. To a certain extent I'm leery of clarifying things too specifically because editors might then use that to say "well, we specified pings here but not there, therefore it's not covered." But if there seems to be confusion then it's important to hammer it out eventually. -- Aquillion ( talk) 17:17, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
I wonder if it would be a good idea to name the Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard in this page, as an example of appropriate notifications. We get occasional complaints about people posting at FTN about conspiracy theories and pseudoscience, and people might worry less if they knew that this really was an okay thing. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 21:55, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
The talk page or noticeboard of one or more WikiProjects or other Wikipedia collaborations which may have interest in the topic under discussion.isaacl ( talk) 21:59, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
There is an interesting thread on the GSoW group, it's already archived though. See : Continued discussion about GSoW. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 19:30, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
- On the user talk pages of concerned editors. Examples include:
- Editors who have made substantial edits to the topic or article
- Editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics)
- Editors known for expertise in the field
- Editors who have asked to be kept informed
Under current wording, it seems like quite a few user talk page notifications are allowed. Four bullets are given, and this covers a wide variety of folks. Does this reflect current consensus though? Would it be better to tighten this to suggest that user talk notifications should be kept to a minimum, in favor of other more neutral notifications such as WikiProjects and noticeboards? Here is my suggested change. Replace the above with:
- On the user talk pages of a small number of key stakeholders, such as page creators.
I chose page creators to mention specifically as I believe this to reflect current practice (e.g. when notifying of AFDs) and is uncontroversial. Thoughts? – Novem Linguae ( talk) 14:26, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
Is a post on another language wiki to opine in an English Wikipedia RFC considered canvassing? – Novem Linguae ( talk) 16:48, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that if a top contributor wants to notify other top contributors (especially when all top contributors are likely to be on the same side of the debate as the notifier), the best practice is for them to ping from the discussion rather than post to talk pages. It feels more transparent to me. I'm not interested in making a rule. Just noting a best practice. Proposed change: From
Note: It is good practice to leave a note at the discussion itself about notifications which have been made, particularly if made to individual users.
to
Best Practices: leave a note at the discussion itself about notifications which have been made, particularly if made to individual users, and particularly if those users are likely to be in agreement with you. Or, ping from the discussion with an explanation, "Notifying top contributors". valereee ( talk) 18:03, 27 February 2022 (UTC)