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Initiated by Sceptre ( talk) at 18:08, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Remedy 4.1 of Sexology, "Discretionary Sanctions", states that discretionary sanctions may be authorised "for all articles dealing with transgender issues and paraphilia classification". This is mostly a set theory/syntactical question: does the remedy refer to the intersection of the categories, or the union of the categories? My view of it was the former, but Penwhale believes it applies to the latter. It may be prudent for the Committee to state what its intent was. Sceptre ( talk) 18:08, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
In sanctions, the word "and" generally refers to the union of the topics mentioned. Collect ( talk) 18:30, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
First things first: I have added the names of the 4 editors I notified of the Sexology DS and have notified them of this discussion (as they're directly affected by this request). Now that's out of the way: That wording really is not the best thing in the world. (As Sceptre pointed out, it creates different interpretations.) The thing is that the intersection of the two clauses... In fact, I'm having trouble pointing out the intersection of the clauses, because I believe that such intersection would cover a very limited set of articles that the committee would have named those articles directly in the remedy. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 22:55, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
First, let me state that the category of paraphilias is a rag-bag of things that were at one time considered weird or bad by privileged cisgender psychiatrists blinkered to their own prejudices -- including but not limited to:
Of course no reasonable person would consider these to have anything to do with one another.
[Aside: well, okay, maybe there's a somewhat larger than coincidental overlap between the trans* and kink/fetish communities. But for people who are kinky and trans, it's not being trans that is their kink, if you see what I mean ;-)]
See here for links to explanations of how deeply problematic the whole idea is and how it interferes with clear thought about any of the things it refers to, including this strongly argued and well-supported proposal to remove the "severely flawed" category of paraphilias from psychiatric diagnostic manuals.
It is therefore somewhat problematic to have an arbitration case that purports to be covering all of these things that have nothing to do with each other, especially if no-one is sure whether it's supposed to be a union or an intersection.
It's also problematic to add people retrospectively,
-- Daira Hopwood ⚥ ( talk) 06:07, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
While "paraphilia" might not be the most sensitive term in all situations, it is a term that is used in sexology (read the original case for evidence of this). The arbitration committee are not making a value judgement about anything. Whether it is a useful classification, or whether any particular activity should or should not be classified as a paraphilia are irrelevant.
t may also include: In more expansive language I believe that the scope should be interpreted as applying to: All articles dealing with
I am not sure whether it also includes
My gut feeling is that the first of these two bullets is probably included but the second is not. Clarification would be welcome. Thryduulf ( talk) 09:55, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
And is inherently semantically ambiguous and requires English speakers to infer meaning from context. For example, the narrator of Rainy Days and Mondays would clearly be sad on a Friday with precipitation or a sunny 23 September 2013, whereas the predicate of If You're Happy and You Know It clearly implies that joyous children lacking self awareness would not be clapping. Suggest using or where intent is union and the both .. and construct where the committee wishes to specify intersection. NE Ent 09:44, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} at 20:37, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
There have been on-and-off discussions on Talk:Radical feminism since April 2014 regarding the acronym "TERF" (which stands for "trans-exclusionary radical feminists"). Specifically there is disagreement whether or not the term should be considered a slur and thus not used on talk pages in any other context other than the acronym itself or its use by others vis-a-vis the content of the article. Carolmooredc first posted about it on the RadFem article and on WP:XX in April of this year asking users not to use it. Since then there have been various conversations about it here, here, and here. Most recent discussion (seen in the last two links in the previous sentence) has been around asking the ARBCOM to clarify if this acronym constitutes a slur and would thus be under the purview of the Sexology decision regarding transgender issues.
For clarity, it is my personal view that the acronym does not constitute a slur as it is only viewed as such by those it refers to. It is not the same as other widely recognized slurs such as this and this. I have described my views more clearly in the linked talk page discussions above.
This is my first time at ARBCOM so I apologize if any of this is improperly formatted or otherwise incorrect.
Hello. This is also my first arbitration case request so please bare with me if I am not keen on all of the formatting and the rules. But, in my view, this dispute is stemming from the fact that one or two editors feel the need to attribute TERF as a slur. I do not share this view, because it's the exact opposite of a slur. It's an acronym describing a subset of Radical feminism that do not accept trans* folk at all. The reasoning on how this is a slur also baffles me. The fact that some people use it in threatening emails? Well, if we attribute that to being a slur, then we'd also open our doors to everything be a slur, because threatening emails will be threatening regardless of the terminology used. We also don't generally involve ourselves into off wiki disputes. It is of point that it is a useful term to describe the group of radical feminists who don't support trans people. That's all it's being used for on the talk, and that's all it will ever be used for it. It falls incredibly short of being a slur anyways, like Evergreen pointed out the two examples; 'nigger' and 'tranny'. Those terms are made to inflame and insult, this one is made to describe a group and their general POV; like Pro-Choice and Pro-Life. I feel that Arbitration clarification request is the acceptable method for clarification because otherwise it's just 'X says its a slur' and 'Y says that it isn't' and generally gets all muddy and filthy. A clarification would be greatly appreciated. Tutelary ( talk) 21:03, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
This is a behaviour issue but solutions may be dependent on whether the acronym is a slur. Both can be decided by the community in general. If something makes another editor feel uncomfortable then I do wish that we drop it, a very easy way to avoid hurt and contention. Doing so seems to be the deeper sense of what civility is. Not an arbcom issue.( Littleolive oil ( talk) 21:13, 1 September 2014 (UTC))
As I said in the Manning naming dispute Arbcom case, whether something is a slur or not depends on the CONTEXT it is used in - and I'm not sure I can emphasize that enough. We need to quit acting like children on here with no concept of dimension and a two sided construct of language. A word cannot be offensive or nonoffensive. How the word is used can be. That's what matters. Each case must be evaluated on it's individual merits. If someone says "From the TERF perspective, blah blah blah etc etc etc" then that would not be an offensive word. If someone said "The fuck do we care what you think, TERF?" That's offensive. It's simple. CONTEXT!--v/r - T P 22:08, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Arbcom case not needed - only clue and maturity are required here.
The word refers to a well defined, real-world phenomenon, and it is appropriately-sourced. The talk page controversy arose when one editor vowed to go immediately to Arbcom. This seemed to imply a threat of sanctions against editors who did not accede to her insistence that the word was used as a slur and her demand that it be removed from the article. SPECIFICO talk 23:12, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I have not seen any editor use the word to describe or address another editor on WP. We're discussing article content only. Any reference to personal attacks should be supported by a link, otherwise let's not confuse things with red herrings and straw women arguments. SPECIFICO talk 01:04, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Given the Sexology and Bradley Manning arbitrations, I was seeking clarification on what to do about this issue at Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests#Not_sure_if_clarification_or_enforcement_issue. (Note: Issue being loose use of it on the web page to refer to specific individuals or groups of radical feminists in an obviously negative fashion, or any potential use against other editors; removing properly sourced information on the term has not been an issue.) Advice there to bring it to ANI seems sensible. I think an intelligent discussion of the WP:RS calling it a slur and a dozen or so examples of how the term is used to insult and threaten women, if shared at WP:ANI, would clarify the issue for the community. However, if it does seem that this issue belongs here, that information can be shared here. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 00:07, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
According to this article in the Huffington Post, TERF refers to feminists who are transphobic or otherwise discriminate against trans-gender people. Thus, TERFs could arguably meet the definition of a hate group. So, the use of this term to refer to Wikipedia editors could very-well violate WP:NPA and it could violate WP:BLP to refer to a living person unless very robustly sourced. However, it does appear to be the term used in general for anti-trans feminists and thus can be used in that context in the applicable articles. Cla68 ( talk) 00:30, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
After pursuing the meaning of this through the internet for better than an hour, I have come up with this explanation. Some individuals, who Arnold Schwarzenegger might term as "lady-boys", and who have male chromosomes and male genitals, want to use female toilets. Also women's sleeping areas and women's prisons. The reason for this is that they believe gender is social. They say anyone who does not agree with them is trying to deprive them of their rights, and is filled with "hate and exclusion". They loathe women almost as much as they loathe their own bodies, and as a result of believing they have become women, they spend a lot of time on "men's rights" forums trying to enforce strict gender roles and telling women how to act as women. I'm sure I have missed some nuance of this, and that someone will come by and set me straight on some of the detail, but this is definitely a thing. Anyone who resists strict gender roles is deemed a "terf", as in "kill terfs", which according to this New Yorker article, has become a common internet threat.
The two terms mentioned by the OP as being "widely recognized slurs" are no such thing [19] [20], but we can certainly add all of these terms to those that do not belong on the talk pages of Wikipedia. That this term was used by an IP, and not a signed-in user, kind of speaks for itself.
If someone says "From the TERF perspective, blah blah blah etc etc etc" then that would not be an offensive word.I'm just not buying it that (in a similar construction) it's okay to say "From the faggot perspective..." or "From the slut perspective..." as long as you don't say "Die, faggot" or "Die, slut". I'm just not buying it; this is offensive. At the very least, this is a gross misrepresentation of someone's views.
This is an issue way out of any remit of the community or ArbCom, because it's off-wiki drama spilling in, basically, so we can't really make a decision that doesn't affect how we talk about content. That said, from a personal perspective, I tend to view with suspicion anyone who says the phrase "TERF is a slur", because the people who say that tend to have a demonstrable history of transphobia. For example, one of the people cited in the article, Elizabeth Hungerford, wrote a letter to the UN two years ago stating that legislative protections for trans people are " a violation of the human rights of women. What I've noticed, off-wiki, is that people who say the term is a slur never actually say why it's a slur. The term is more comparable to "Tory" or "liberal" than "nigger" or "tranny". On the question of content: transphobic radical feminism is a fringe view even of radical feminism, and anti-transgender perspectives should be given according weight. Sceptre ( talk) 14:04, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by v/r - T P at 19:02, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
On the merits, despite the disagreement of these other editors, I remain of the view that an editor who misbehaves in an AE discussion concerning a topic covered by discretionary sanctions is, themselves, subject to the discretionary sanctions authorized for that topic area, and that the warning at issue (meant as the mildest possible sanction, and not to be confused with a no-longer-loggable alert) was therefore correctly logged.
Moreover, to the extent that the sanction was also in application of WP:AC/DS#Decorum, this case raises the question of whether and where sanctions authorized by that provision should be logged.
While I don't have strong feelings about any of these questions, some clarification with respect to any of them might be helpful for future cases. Sandstein 19:29, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
Arbcom, please don't create any new procedures or any new logs for decorum warnings. The existing ones are working. TParis has argued that the warning to him was logged in the wrong place, but I disagree. If there was to be a warning at all under WP:AC/DS#Decorum, surely it should be added to the log of whatever Arbcom case the complaint was brought under. In my opinion Arbcom should treat this request from TParis as though it was an arbitration enforcement appeal. On that basis, Arbcom has jurisdiction to grant the request if it wants to (without being worried that it is interfering with the closure of the AN thread he filed). Another way to handle this would have been for TParis to file an arbitration enforcement appeal at WP:AE. If that had been done, I'd probably vote to grant the appeal and remove the logged warning. EdJohnston ( talk) 15:50, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Per WP:IAR and the obvious trend here I've removed the warning on the sexology [21]. NE Ent 16:15, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
Sandstein has been brought before ArbCom numerous times over the years for misguided and/or heavy-handed actions in areas subject to discretionary sanctions with this just being the latest incident. I think it would be nice if the Arbs would show some official displeasure with his conduct. At the very least he should be advised or instructed to be more judicious and respectful when carrying out his admin duties in this area. Perhaps you can include it in a motion to grant the appeal by TParis.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 20:52, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
The last two notifications are listed as warnings. I propose we strike through the word "warning" and replace with the word "notified" - since the community has decided that we do notifications not warnings. We should of course also add a note referring to this section. All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough, 19:12, 27 January 2015 (UTC).
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Fæ at 15:14, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
The case Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Sexology was over four years ago. The committee seems overdue to revisit these topics of discretionary sanctions as they lump various modern, appropriate, and non-controversial LGBT+ articles with topics of "abnormal sexual desires". The template that is being used on recent articles of wide interest like Danica Roem, offensively lumps articles about trans people and trans issues with hebephilia. As I would hope Arbcom is sensitive to the difference between gender and sex, Arbcom's own rulings must make that difference clear, in order to avoid unintended downstream outcomes, like the template text "The Arbitration Committee has authorized uninvolved administrators to impose discretionary sanctions on users who edit pages related to transgender issues and paraphilia classification (e.g. hebephilia), including this article" which makes it seem that Arbcom and the Wikipedia community does not understand there is a difference between transgender and paraphilia topics in terms of controversy.
In the four years since the Sexology case, the Wikimedia project landscape and community understanding of LGBT+ topics has changed a lot. For example we now have a well established Wikimedia LGBT+ user group, who may be approached for suggestions if Arbcom would be helped by an independent user group view, Wikimedia has officially funded diversity events and LGBT+ editathons, Wikipedia policies have head-on tackled respectful treatment of trans related articles and biographies, and the quality and variety of LGBT+ related articles has significantly expanded to the public benefit.
I request that Arbcom formally recommend that the current implementation of the Sexology case (2013) is revised so that LGBT+ related articles are treated with respect and sensitivity, even if discretionary sanctions are in place and a template is needed. Further, and possibly within a longer timeframe, I request that Arbcom now review the evidence for Sexology case section 4.1 " Standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all pages dealing with transgender issues and paraphilia classification (e.g., hebephilia)" and if the evidence demonstrates that there is no reason to believe the topic of "transgender" is a battleground, to remove the topic of transgender, until a further case with recent evidence of this being a locus of persistent disruption is brought to the committee and a separate ruling may be made.
I confirm I have an interest in the Wikimedia LGBT+ user group as an active participant and at various times have represented LGBT+ interests at Wikimedia conferences, but this does not represent a conflict of interest and neither was I a party or participant in the case. -- Fæ ( talk) 15:14, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Addendum WRT evidence - After writing this request, it was only after Newyorkbrad's comment that I realized that the Manning case was relevant. The statement in the Manning case added to the Sexology DS with "For the avoidance of doubt, these discretionary sanctions apply to any dispute regarding the proper article title, pronoun usage, or other manner of referring to any individual known to be or self-identifying as transgender, including but not limited to Chelsea/Bradley Manning." As a previous administrator I never enforced a DS, and so not thought to check the Arbcom enforcement log. The log shows that there have been three enforcements of the Sexology DS. All were related to the Chelsea Manning article discussions and the article move, and all are over four years ago. In Wikipedia terms, four years with no enforcement is a very long time, especially when the single locus of disruption requiring enforcement was one article, not transgender or paraphilia articles more generally. There is no evidence apart from opinion, that the Sexology DS have been effective or necessary on any articles apart from Chelsea Manning in the last four years, or that use of the {{ controversial}} would not be as effective to minimize disruptive behaviour, as history appears to show for paraphilia articles. -- Fæ ( talk) 12:24, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
{{
controversial}}
sufficient.Alternative solution proposed: A different template. Either a) a general sexology DS template that doesn't get into specifics, or b) separate templates for paraphilias, for LGBTQI issues, and for sexology as a discipline, to forestall any further dispute and offense caused by them all being lumped together. They were correctly lumped in dealing with disruption about them, as having a similar base cause and nature, but they're not properly correlated in any other way.
Oppose the proposed original solution, because the TG-related articles are still subject to a lot of problematic editing, and the DS should remain. This requester's proposal would throw the dispute reduction baby out with the bad template wording bathwater.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 18:10, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
I agree with SMcCandlish's suggestion to split out three DS templates. It seems to me that that would fix the very annoying issue at hand without requiring substantive changes to the original case. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:57, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
I agree that transgender issues should not be lumped in with paraphilia issues in a DS notice. However, I feel strongly that transgender-related articles should remain under discretionary sanctions. I witness disruption on these articles constantly. Therefore I would support a separate DS notice specific to trans issues. Funcrunch ( talk) 21:24, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
As Fae mentioned above, gender and sexual preference are independent. Wouldn't it make sense to separate transgender templates from lesbian/gay/bisexual templates? Would a sexuality template and a gender template fix these issues? -- DHeyward ( talk) 13:29, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
I was the editor who initially alerted WikiProject LGBT studies about this issue.
I'm not really convinced by the argument that it would be too much work by as claimed by Callanecc. From what I can tell, these are all the articles with this tag:
|topic=pa
for reasons unknown to me.Note that none of these articles are about "paraphilia classification (e.g. hebephilia)"; aside from Kerik, all of these articles are about transgender individuals or topics.
None of the other "areas of conflict" are about such disjoint topics, so this one stands out. And even if you clarify that the topics are "clear it applies to both areas independently", there's no way to prevent it from affecting connotations and building on harmful stereotypes.
Umimmak ( talk) 09:14, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
pa
to something else if this is done to make it less opaque. (I remain neutral as to whether to remove or just rewrite.)I think the best way forwards here is a two-step process. Step one being to replace the current DS authorisation and associated templates with ones covering the three separate areas which collectively cover the same scope as at present. If any topics fall into multiple areas then they can simply be noted as being covered by all that apply and any sanctions necessary can be applied under whichever is more appropriate to the individual circumstances (there is precedent for this - a few years ago the Operation Flavius article was covered by both The Troubles and Gibraltar DS areas, I placed a sanction under the former as that was most relevant to the specific disruption). If there is any disagreement about which of the three topic areas a given page/category should be in then this should be taken to an appropriate noticeboard or wikiproject talk page, with placing it in multiple categories being an option.
Step two is an optional review of whether the DS topics are still required, and a request to the Committee if removal is desired. This should wait until after the migration is complete and any discussions about categorisation have concluded and should examine the topic areas individually as the answer is not necessarily going to be the same for all of them.
This should eliminate the problems initially noted while not throwing out any babies with bathwater. Thryduulf ( talk) 14:20, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
pa
code into two distinct codes, one for transgender issues and one for paraphilia issues? I think this could be done as a clerk actions without a need to modify the underlying sanction.
GoldenRing (
talk) 16:55, 8 November 2017 (UTC)I think people might be reading a bit too much into the two topics being conflated in this remedy. It's not the Committee (then, now or future) making any comment that the issues are equated with each other. Instead, it's the Committee (then) identifying, in the Sexology case, that these two topic areas were/are contentious and that both came up in the same case.
Having said that, I'm minded to remove these discretionary sanctions completely given that the last time discretionary sanctions have been used was three and a half years ago (and that was reinstating a TBAN which had expired). Before that, in 2013, they were only used in relation to the Manning dispute. Callanecc ( talk • contribs • logs) 07:39, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
Remedy 4.1 ("Discretionary sanctions") of the Sexology case is amended to read:
Any sanctions or other restrictions imposed under the previous wording of this remedy to date shall remain in force unaffected.
Remedy 4.1 ("Discretionary sanctions") of the Sexology case is rescinded. Any sanctions or other restrictions imposed under this remedy to date shall remain in force unaffected.
Enacted - Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 23:39, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Jokestress at 20:29, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
I'd like this topic ban reviewed, please. My many created articles on value-neutral scientific concepts in sexuality have stood the test of time as NPOV helpful contributions. Example: Androphilia and gynephilia has hundreds of readers daily, and the terms remain widely used by ethical researchers despite the failed attempt to get it deleted here. The graphics I created for that article have been used in books. The sexologists who disagree with me [23] had their clinic shut down [24] since I was last editing. They and their like-minded allies still remain active editors here. Wikipedia has not kept up with the advances in the field. A few editors with very rigid medicalized views on sex and gender minorities maintain ownership of this subject area, causing our coverage to lag behind the published literature. It bothers me to see such an important topic become so outdated. I promise to be nice and not get frustrated with anonymous editors even when they deadname me, misgender me, and so on. I realize it just goes with the territory of using your real name. Sexuality was a small part of my edit history, but it is an area where I have extensive knowledge. Hope I did this right! Jokestress ( talk) 20:29, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
Be careful not to violate your interaction ban; there was no need to bring up the AFD created by someone you're banned from talking about. That's a separate sanction. Also, while I'm here, I don't understand how the linked edit demonstrated misgendering; are you objecting to someone refering to you using the singular they? FWIW, I'm not familiar with the details underlying the case, but this request gives off a distinct battleground-ish vibe. I'm fairly confident that is not going to be a successful way to appeal a topic ban imposed for, among other things, previous relentless battleground behavior. Perhaps it isn't too late to self-reflect and change your approach? -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 20:50, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
Not involved in the subject at all, but I was curious and went back to the FoFs:
I have to agree with Floq that this seems to maintain an air of battleground seen back in those findings of fact. It seems like this editor is too close to the topic, so I'd be wary about removing the topic ban even though it's six years old. Focus on others and inability to address one's own problems after a ban is a good sign the sanction should remain in place. Kingofaces43 ( talk) 21:00, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
I am somewhat familiar with this case, and like Floq and Kingofaces43 I am struck by just how much of a battleground vibe this request gives off. Additionally, one of the findings of fact in this case related to
Jokestress' off-wiki behavior: Jokestress is a prominent party to an off-wiki controversy involving human sexuality, in which she has been sharply critical of certain individuals who disagree with her views, and has imported aspects of the controversy into the English Wikipedia to the detriment of the editing environment on sexuality-related articles.
I get the distinct impression from this request that they she would do exactly the same again were the topic ban lifted. There is nothing in the case that convinces me they she understood at the time why their her actions were problematic, and I see nothing in this request that convinces me that this has changed.
Accordingly I don't think that lifting the topic ban at this time will be a net positive to the project, and encourage the committee to decline it. Thryduulf ( talk) 21:28, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
I advise everyone to look at this recent ANI thread started by Crossroads, which outlines Jokestress's problematic editing in the areas of human sexuality and gender and how the editor has not changed. Even the above initial post, as noted by two editors before me, shows the same WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. Please do not be fooled by several years having passed. As many know, I am one of the most active editors in the pedophilia and child sexual abuse topic areas, if not the most active, and I have helped get a lot of pedophile and child sexual abuse POV-pushers indefinitely blocked. In fact, Alison and I were key in having such editors blocked or alerting WP:ArbCom to these matters, and WP:CHILDPROTECT was created to help combat the issues. Editors such as Herostratus, Legitimus and myself (just a handful of editors) have consistently kept articles, such as Rind et al. controversy, free of POV-pushing from pedophiles, child sexual abusers and others looking to challenge the medicalization of pedophilia or downplay the effects of child sexual abuse. Over the years, some have come back as WP:Socks, and I have dealt with those as well (often with the help of certain CheckUsers, including Alison and Berean Hunter). Jokestress was savvy enough to avoid getting indefinitely blocked for her behavior in these areas, but she did get topic-banned, and for reasons I and others already outlined there. This editor is very much a threat to the community. Jokestress trying to paint this as silencing a transgender person does not cut it. For those of us who were there -- who know how problematic this editor was at pedophilia and child sexual abuse topics, and other topics -- this was never about Jokestress being transgender.
The sexology case clearly concerned transgender issues as well. And human sexuality is a broad topic, which significantly overlaps with gender (including transgender) aspects. We have various articles, including Transvestic fetishism, Gender variance and Childhood gender nonconformity that show this overlap. Childhood gender nonconformity, for example, very much aligns with an eventual gay, lesbian, or bisexual sexual orientation. Prospective studies have shown this. Furthermore, even Jokestress's first suggestion at Talk:Detransition shows overlap between sexuality and the transgender topic. But even if one thinks human sexuality doesn't cover detransition, it's still the case that making a comparison to the ex-gay movement, as Jokestress did at Talk:Detransition, is definitely on the subject of human sexuality, and therefore a topic ban violation. I do not see that, given her views (including on our policies and guidelines) and how she notoriously tries to go about getting those views implemented, this editor should be allowed to edit sexual or gender topics. This is a person who considers all medicalization a bad a thing, and has repeatedly tried to undermine Wikipedia rules such as WP:MEDRS. I especially don't see how anyone (except for pedophiles, child sexual abusers, and related POV-pushers) can be comfortable letting this person edit pedophilia and child sexual abuse topics. The "that was years ago" line of thinking does not hold up, as seen by their off-Wikipedia activity and recent behavior once finally back on Wikipedia. Jokestress has not changed in all of these years. Jokestress has simply behaved the same way off Wikipedia. Coming back to Wikipedia and acting the way she has recently acted, including ignoring two warnings about her editing in these areas, and it taking an ANI thread to get her to acknowledge that she should stop, speaks volumes. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 22:21, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
And regarding this, this, this and this here and at ANI, WanderingWanda, who I have a tempestuous history with, should not be touching my posts. Nowhere did I call Jokestress a pedophile. The post relates to my experience with pedophile and child sexual abuser POV-pushers, and Jokestress having edited in a similar way -- the same exact thing I stated in the ArbCorm case against her. She was problematic in those areas due to her views on pedophilia and child sexual abuse, indeed challenging the medicalization of pedophilia or downplaying the effects of child sexual abuse, which was reiterated by Crossroads in his ANI thread against her. It is the main reason she was topic-banned from sexuality articles. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 23:29, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
Given recent commentary below, I must state the following: Any claim that our Wikipedia transgender or transgender-related articles are being overran by anti-trans editors is false. There is far more activism going on at these articles than any anti-trans activity. Certain editors want one narrative presented as valid and that's it. If you note an opposing narrative and/or that this opposing narrative should be included and why, they may consider you transphobic/anti-trans. This is despite the fact that transgender people disagree with one another on these matters as well, as seen by this and this source commenting on left-wing transgender YouTuber ContraPoints coming under fire (from those who otherwise supported her) for daring to have different opinions and for daring to include a trans man ( Buck Angel) with different opinions in one of her videos. People, both cisgender and transgender, have different views on what it means to be a woman (as recent discussions at Talk:Woman have shown). Disagreeing on that doesn't automatically make one transphobic/anti-trans. It doesn't make one a bad person. And yet we have editors comparing those who disagree to Nazis at Talk:Feminist views on transgender topics and Talk:TERF. A transgender person with views that deviate from commonly held views in the transgender community may be labeled transphobic/categorized as suffering from internalized transphobia or as truscum. Even me noting that transgender YouTuber Blaire White has commented on this and linking to this YouTube video where she takes on claims of being a transphobic trans woman/a trans woman suffering from internalized transphobia can lead certain editors to deduce "Flyer is transphobic" ( a claim recently rejected by the community). When I mention transgender people like White, it's me acknowledging that transgender people also have diverse views on these topics. It's just that, like White notes, certain voices within the transgender community are louder than others/are more commonly reported on (and more positively) in the media. If other transgender YouTubers or transgender public figures with White's views had Wikipedia articles, I'd mention them as well. The need to note different views on these topics and include those views in our Wikipedia articles if WP:Due is why editors should not be silenced by accusations of being transphobic/anti-trans (unless they truly are transphobic/anti-trans, although this, per what I've noted in this paragraph, can be subjective). This is why Fæ was topic-banned in August. This is why Jokestress editing transgender topics is problematic. Jokestress being transgender doesn't mean that Jokestress editing transgender topics is a good thing. Jokestress is here, like always, to push a narrative. And if anyone disagrees with that narrative, that person is Jokestress's enemy and/or, according to Jokestress, is transphobic. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 14:06, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
I am not at all familiar with the Fae and Jokestress situation, and I do not have a cell phone much less a twitter account. I am cognizant of one thing, that the anti trans editors outnumber and are more active than the pro trans or trans neutral editors. And are quite expert at wp:wikispeak and adept at almost undectable WIKILAWYERING. Thus an opportunity to TBAN a trans advocate increases their ability to push their POV. As regards lumping everything under the topic Human Sexuality is misguided. Pedophilia may have been accepted in ancient Greece and Rome, but it has proven o have harmful/damaging psychological and social effects in the modern age. Some ancient cultures engaged in child sacrifice, but we don't today, I sanction a ban on advocates of pedophilia. But pedophilia is not akin to transsexualism or homosexuality except in the propaganda of many on the religious right. And thus oppose the lumping of transgenderism/transsexuality under the broad umbrella of Human Sexualiity, as much as it might appear to make sense. That or topic bans need to be made narrower and more well defined. Oldperson ( talk) 22:32, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
I want to carefully word this, as to not cast apserions on other editors,but in truth there is a dearth of voices that can speak for the transgendered on wikipedia, especially when the most vocal like Fae and Jokestress have been banned or blocked from speaking out,leaving only a smattering of pro or neutral editors to offset very vocal and "anti-trans" or trans critical editors to dominate the articles and their talk pages, with well practiced civil POV pushing. Oldperson ( talk) 23:35, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
I have read enough about Jokestress' real-world interactions with others who do not wholeheartedly share her views to be uncomfortable with a simple lifting of this ban.
I do not share the evident alarm and hostility of, say, Crossroads, but I do not think that Jokestress is a comfortable fit for the topic area of gender, and especially transgender, despite her being substantially correct in many cases. Guy ( help!) 14:36, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
I urge the Committee to instead reaffirm the topic ban, and clarify that it includes transgender topics. Transgender topics were an integral part of the case. The discretionary sanctions, though now
rescinded as redundant to the GamerGate discretionary sanctions, were authorized for all pages dealing with transgender issues and paraphilia classification
.
[33]
Jokestress was topic banned for good reason, and all the evidence indicates that she has not changed since that time and will immediately resume her old behavior. Indeed, she already has.
I only started editing Wikipedia in 2018, but when looking at the history of her article Bruce Rind, which was successfully deleted at AfD, I found out about her and read the Sexology arbitration case and many of the links therein. I encourage anyone who wants to weigh in to look for themselves. The evidence page from that case contains even more info. [34] From all this, it is clear that Jokestress takes an inappropriate-for-Wikipedia, completely activist approach to sexuality and gender, one that is anti-science, anti-medical (in contradiction to WP:MEDRS), anti-reliable-sources when those sources are ones she does not like (which is often), and frankly, at times is questionable regarding WP:CHILDPROTECT.
Since she mentions she has created sexuality articles, I will point to her article Adult sexual interest in children. This was deleted at AfD for being a POV fork of Pedophilia.
Some statements made by Jokestress about pedophilia
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After the Sexology case, she left Wikipedia for 6.5 years. During this time, her attitude about the Wikipedia community did not change. She still has the mentality of bending Wikipedia to a certain POV, the hostile us-against-them approach, and her attitude about WP:WINNING, as evidenced by some of her tweets just from the last few months.
Tweets
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Now, her recent behavior. At her return, after some userspace edits, she went straight to the lead of the article
Detransition,
adding in that Direct, formal research of "detransition" has shown political parallels between the ex-trans movement and the
ex-gay movement.
Mentioning the ex-gay movement is editing about human sexuality, hence a topic ban violation. The source for this was an activist article in a
predatory journal, and she added other activist non-
WP:MEDRS sources as well. On the talk page she
claimed This is a classic "phenomenon vs. term" political debate. This biased article
reifies a transphobic ideology akin to the
ex-gay movement.
She continued suggesting activist sources on the talk page,
[42]
[43] even though she had been warned about this likely being a topic ban violation.
[44]
[45]
Both here and at the short-lived recent ANI thread [46] she continues unremorseful with the same attitude. She just referred to "Flyer22 and related accounts/IPs", showing the same combativeness and bad faith assumptions.
Jokestress' latest ploy appears to be claiming that she has to be here to correct Wikipedia's supposedly biased treatment of this topic. This is wrong for at least 4 reasons: (1) The comparison with race issues is a
false analogy. Race issues are not a "debate about science"; rather, science refutes racist ideology, and as for so-called
race science, as the article linked to says, Scientific racism is a pseudoscientific belief
. (2) Like other
WP:FRINGE theory pushers, Jokestress is claiming Wikipedia's coverage of a topic is unbalanced and needs her to correct it. However, loading it up with her cherry-picked sources is likely to lead to
WP:FALSEBALANCE. (3) There is no reason to think our coverage of sexuality and gender is biased so that she is needed to correct it. I speak from experience that these topics have editors with a wide variety of viewpoints already, including many who are openly LGBT, and the consensus building process works as it should. (4) Even if it were true that our articles were unbalanced, Jokestress is not the person to help us correct it. Her hostile approach will drive editors away. And the sources she adds are poor.
[47]
[48] They are all activist, are opinionated partisan media pieces, and/or from a predatory journal.
We know her behavior patterns; they're documented for us in the previous case. If her topic ban is lifted, our gender and sexuality articles will be loaded up with carefully selected opinionated sources in service of an agenda. Anyone who opposes this will experience opposition until they are driven away or worn down. What do we expect? She is an activist, and activists engage in activism. And as for the articles specifically on pedophilia, with the comments from her quoted above, I'll leave as an exercise for the reader what that will end up like.
Her topic ban should stay, and it should be clarified that it does cover transgender topics. -Crossroads- ( talk) 00:21, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
@ KrakatoaKatie: To be clear, what is being suggested is not a widening of the topic ban, but rather clarity that it was always meant to be included. Indeed, it is being treated as included already both at ANI and here. Clarity in the topic ban description is needed because this user apparently intends to wikilawyer and edit as close to the edge of her ban as possible. (And in any case, the reasons for her original topic ban apply just as much to transgender topics as to sexuality in the narrow sense.)
I'll briefly address
Jokestress' latest comments. Her statement several editors in human sexuality have stated they have "a personal, possibly monetary [professional], conflict of interest" in the outcome of our sexuality coverage.
appears to be false; there is no "several" I have ever heard of, and this appears to be a thinly veiled reference just to
User:James Cantor, whom she is banned from talking about. Her claims of being indispensible, of most trans editors having been driven away, of a conspiracy of editors having shut down debate, are simply untrue, indeed absurd from my experience in these topics. The issue is not just a lack of evidence of collaboration on her part; it is positive evidence that nothing has changed since last time; that she is actively uninterested in collaborating, but instead in winning, activism, and promotion of fringe views; that she is not sorry for her past behavior; that the same behavior and attitude continues off-wiki; and that it is essentially impossible for her to contribute NPOV content on this topic. As another example of this in particular, check out this enormous "enemies list" style chart on this site
[49] titled "academic pathologization of transgender people".
-Crossroads- (
talk) 06:12, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Thryduulf; and Premeditated Chaos and the other arbitrators: My opinion on the proposed exemption is that she will end up haranguing others on that talk page to get the article changed to her liking. She already has her apparently preferred version lined up here: [50] A big part of the reason for the topic ban is her inability to edit in this topic area, including bios, in cooperation with others (and the record shows this includes talk page discussions). See also the digging up of poor sources on the Detransition talk page: [51] Her own bio will be no different. It can be handled the same as most of our bios: by uninvolved editors in accord with BLP. -Crossroads- ( talk) 20:27, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
GorillaWarfare (and the other arbitrators): It doesn't matter at all how Jokestress edits in other topic areas. That was never the problem, back then or now. She was not topic banned for behavior in those areas. The problem then and now, on and off-wiki, is how she approaches and handles this topic. Her attitude on-wiki is the same as that off-wiki, which has always been consistent. If it continues, as it almost certainly will, then she is fundamentally incompatible with how Wikipedia works in this area, due to COI/ NOTSOAPBOX issues (not to mention her views on pedophilia; compare WP:CHILDPROTECT). I see no need to spend precious time relitigating this again in a mere 6 months (or ever, really) without a fundamental change in Jokestress' approach to this topic, which is extremely unlikely due to her deep seated activist focus. She has every right to be an activist in the real world, but this is not what Wikipedia is for. -Crossroads- ( talk) 06:49, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
I also ask ArbCom to reaffirm the topic ban, and to clarify that it includes transgender topics, more generally than ArbCom has said this already. While such a clarification that "human sexuality" includes "pages having to do with transgender topics and issues" appeared in the recent-ish Fæ ARCA, that user's restrictions read "human sexuality, broadly construed" and the latter two words are missing from those of Jokestress. This has (quite self-evidently) provided WP:WIKILAWYER wiggling room, and that just needs to be shut down and prevented from happening again the next time someone with a gender-issues axe to grind gets disruptive.
Beyond this, I'll just repeat what I said at Jokestress's user-talk page and the ANI thread: The Detransition edit [52] was a T-ban breach twice over, in being about both transgender and LGB politicized issues, and it severably fell under the WP:AC/DS that pertain to such topics (merged with the GamerGate sanctions).
For an editor T-banned from human sexuality to return to the no. 1 most conflict-generating human sexuality topic on Wikipedia (transgender matters), and head straight for potentially the most controversial subtopic within it (detransitioning), and then draw a comparison (in WP:NOT#FORUM- and WP:SOAPBOX-crossing ways, as a drive-by non sequitur seemingly aimed at controversy not at article improvement) using one of the most controversial subtopics of the LGB subject-space (self-declaration of being formerly homo- or bi-sexual), and to do so in an extra-provocative way by citing a brand new paper (primary source, with no impact and with no review outside the journal's own committee yet, if there really even is one) from predatory-journal outfit Science Publishing Group (a publisher whose entire website is on our URL blacklist), suggesting that detransition and ex-gay are far-right, Bible-thumper "discourses" about the "ungodly") – all supposedly without understanding it's a topic-ban breach or disruptive within an AC/DS subject?
Well, it just beggars disbelief, and was amazingly non-productive. If this had been reported to the correct venue (
WP:AE instead of
WP:ANI), I think a block would have been issued on the spot. And the sheer hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance of a gender-identity tolerance activist using WP as a platform to simultaneously attack two self-identity decisions she doesn't like is just stunning, another example of political correctness turned ass-over-elbows. This hasn't been taking a long break to reflect on mistakes made and how to better integrate into a collaborative editing environment. It's just been stewing and biding one's time for years in hopes that editorial attrition, memory lapses, and forgivingness would enable a resumption of the same
WP:GREATWRONGS antics.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 06:35, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
That said, I have to take issue with the idea that we (the community) or you (ArbCom) can evaluate an editor's ability to edit a topic in which they've been long-term disruptive (human sexuality and gender, in this case) by watching how that editor behaves in other topic areas, especially for only six months. We already know for a fact that this editor can bide time for years only to return with the intent to re-engage in the same battleground behavior, is showing signs of "I am the one true topical savior" WP:GREATWRONGS self-importance (the opposite of any sign of growth toward collaborative and neutral editing), and is even exhibiting such a WP:CIR problem that she's asked ArbCom to lift the T-ban specfically so that she can resume that battle. I question the wisdom of offering topical-return hope to this editor, especially given the history of "biding". It seems likely that Jokestress would ride out that six months gnoming and editing trivial, non-controversial topics just to "prove" ability to get along, and then rush right back into the fray as soon as permitted. WP:AGF has to be moderated by the practicality of the WP:DUCK/ WP:SPADE and "our policies are not a suicide pact" principles we've derived from WP:Common sense. "I ... believe that it is possible for people who were unable to edit productively in a topic area to become able to" is effectively irrelevant when the editor in question has already demonstrated beyond all reasonable doubt that it will not happen. Re, "I ... would not support making any topic ban unappealable": No one suggested that, but we have indefinite remedies for a reason, and appealing them every 6 months or so is discouraged, also for good reasons.
PS: I've not looked into DMSBel, but the Barbara (WVS)/Bfpage restriction included "sexuality, broadly construed", which definitely does include gender, per ArbCom's own clarifications in Fæ's and other cases. "Didn't specifically mention gender" and "doesn't cover gender" are nowhere near synonymous, especially after "human sexuality" has already been clarified multiple times to be inclusive of gender identify, and most especially not in a case like this one, in which the "human sexuality" disruption by the editor has involved gender identity the entire time. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 13:08, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Update: I've now looked into DMSBel. The restriction (dating to 2011, before widespread gender-related disruption, so of questionable relevance to begin with) was "the topic of human sexuality, interpreted broadly", which makes no exception for gender-related topics, and was not intended to. The admin informing DMSBel of this clearly noted: "The ban specifically says that it is to be interpreted broadly; pushing the limit on related topics is not recommended." DMSBel ignored this, and became disruptive in obviously related topics, including abortion, and was subject to further and further restrictions until being banned. So, it's a case study in why gender (and abortion, and so on) are necessarily included in "human sexuality", with very few editors having any doubt about that being obvious. Otherwise, the disruption will just shift over a little, skirting the edge of the ban with a bunch of wikilawyering until that gets shut down again. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 13:31, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
this July Atlantic cover story debacle will be a more historically significant journalistic event than nearly anything else in their careers. Everyone involved is going to be held accountable, even if it takes a decade or more. [56]In a blog post response to the article, she wrote:
One of Ms. James' recent ventures was a kickstarter for a data visualisation project she claims will identify transphobia in the media; it received US$23,302 in backing. She explicitly identified the detransition-related Atlantic article as her motivation [58] and used it in fundraising appeals [59]. ( Alice Dreger, who has alleged harassment and threats from Ms. James, described the kickstarter asThe "ex-trans" movement, similar to the discredited "ex-gay" movement, can always count on axe-grinding coverage that vastly over-represents their numbers and POV. [...] The "ex-trans" movement is an anomaly, a rounding error, a tragedy to be sure, but ultimately a fringe movement embraced and amplified by bigots. [57]
a page to crowdfund her work harassing me and others [60];the author of the Atlantic piece, Jesse Singal, called it
such a massive grift [61]) It appears to me that Ms. James has a personal, possibly monetary, conflict of interest with the topic detransition, and that her article edit adding
ex-gay movementand an "'Ex-Trans' Activists Exposed" ref prominently to the lead [62], as well as talk page edits labelling the article biased [63] [64], are inappropriate advocacy importing an off-wiki conflict. gnu 57 13:04, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
While this is open and despite being informed that she is violating her topic ban she is still contributing to the talk page at Talk:Detransition. [65] AIRcorn (talk) 17:18, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
1. Jokestress's tenure was before my time and I have no strong opinion about her topic ban. I do know that if I was in her position I would've gone about things a bit differently: I wouldn't have broken the ban before asking for it to be lifted, for example, and wouldn't have gone after other editors when making the request.
2. I am taken aback by some of the quotes by Jokestress about child sexual abuse above, and this isn't just an academic but a personal issue for me. I was also, however, concerned by some of Flyer22's statements: I have helped get a lot of pedophile and child sexual abuse POV-pushers indefinitely blocked
...Jokestress was savvy enough to avoid to getting indefinitely blocked for her behavior in these areas
...This editor is very much a threat to the community
...I especially don't see how anyone (except for pedophiles, child sexual abusers, and related POV-pushers) can be comfortable letting this person edit pedophilia and child sexual abuse topics.
I understand this is a difficult topic to talk about, but these statements, to me, go beyond just
commenting on content, and instead publicly brand editors with a scarlet letter. And they don't just brand Jokestress herself, but any editor who would support lifting her topic ban and giving her a second chance. With that said, I've been told that it was inappropriate for me to attempt to redact Flyer's statements myself. I fully agree and apologize.
WanderingWanda (
talk) 09:38, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Jokestress has failed to show she can work sensibly in this topic area. I find it bizarre that an editor specialising in transgender issues could seriously think, even for a minute, that there should be a 100 percent ‘success’ or ‘satisfaction’ ratio of people with gender dysphoria or identity issues who transition, and then conclude and POV push on Wikipedia that the small number of said people changing their mind and detransitioning represents transphobia, etc. This rigid, inflexible and extreme black and white thinking, combined with concerns raised by editors above, suggests that this editor is not WP:COMPETENT to be editing in this area. People do change over time and while it may seem unlikely at this juncture who knows perhaps Jokestress can prove us wrong, in say a year from now, by editing sensibly in other topic areas before appealing this topic ban, at a later date.-- Literaturegeek | T@1k? 22:54, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Although I can see a small possibility in the future that Jokestress could find a pathway to return to editing transsexualism articles perhaps in a year from now, which is an area of her expertise, I do think she should be kept away indefinitely from the pedophilia range of articles for reasons highlighted above by other editors.-- Literaturegeek | T@1k? 17:43, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
...from the topic of human sexuality and gender. I'm not sure how that works with the "including biographies" provision, though. Everyone has a sexuality and a gender, so was the idea to t-ban Jokestress from all biographies? Or just those of people notable for something related to sexuality/gender? If the latter, we should clarify whether the subject simply being trans prevents Jokestress from editing their biography (I'd say it shouldn't). – Joe ( talk) 07:04, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
human sexuality. The committee has repeatedly ruled 1 2 that transgender issues are within that scope. With the scope not in doubt, we could only clarify the nature and meaning of a Wikipedia:Topic ban. We should not need to do that every time an editor is topic banned. I endorse Joe Roe,
the subject simply being trans prevents Jokestress from editing their biography (I'd say it shouldn't), but the existing language says the same. The language never supported an attempt to ban Jokestress from every biography. AGK ■ 11:55, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
We should not need to do that every time an editor is topic banned, I think if we want editors who are topic banned from human sexuality to assume that they are also restricted from editing gender-related articles as a result of clarifications made after their bans were placed, we need to at least explicitly notify them, if not directly modify their sanctions. This last point may be a bit academic, though–a quick search through the editing restrictions archive confirms Jokestress is the only editor with an ArbCom topic ban from "human sexuality" (though there are two editors, DMSBel and Barbara (WVS)/ Bfpage, with community-placed topic bans with scopes that include "human sexuality" but not gender). GorillaWarfare (talk) 06:41, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Remedy 2.1 of Sexology ("Jokestress topic-banned from human sexuality") is amended to read:
Enacted -- Cameron11598 (Talk) 06:24, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
and excepting the submission of comments or edit requests to Talk:Amanda James. Could the clerks make sure that Joe Roe and KrakatoaKatie confirm they are okay with the change? AGK ■ 11:28, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
This page has been blanked as a courtesy. The Arbitration Committee's decision is still in effect, and can be viewed at the main case page. The contents of this page can be viewed in the page history. |
Case clerks: Penwhale ( Talk) & Ks0stm ( Talk) Drafting arbitrator: David Fuchs ( Talk)
Wikipedia Arbitration |
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Track related changes |
Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator, clerk, or functionary, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or the clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Sceptre ( talk) at 18:08, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Remedy 4.1 of Sexology, "Discretionary Sanctions", states that discretionary sanctions may be authorised "for all articles dealing with transgender issues and paraphilia classification". This is mostly a set theory/syntactical question: does the remedy refer to the intersection of the categories, or the union of the categories? My view of it was the former, but Penwhale believes it applies to the latter. It may be prudent for the Committee to state what its intent was. Sceptre ( talk) 18:08, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
In sanctions, the word "and" generally refers to the union of the topics mentioned. Collect ( talk) 18:30, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
First things first: I have added the names of the 4 editors I notified of the Sexology DS and have notified them of this discussion (as they're directly affected by this request). Now that's out of the way: That wording really is not the best thing in the world. (As Sceptre pointed out, it creates different interpretations.) The thing is that the intersection of the two clauses... In fact, I'm having trouble pointing out the intersection of the clauses, because I believe that such intersection would cover a very limited set of articles that the committee would have named those articles directly in the remedy. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 22:55, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
First, let me state that the category of paraphilias is a rag-bag of things that were at one time considered weird or bad by privileged cisgender psychiatrists blinkered to their own prejudices -- including but not limited to:
Of course no reasonable person would consider these to have anything to do with one another.
[Aside: well, okay, maybe there's a somewhat larger than coincidental overlap between the trans* and kink/fetish communities. But for people who are kinky and trans, it's not being trans that is their kink, if you see what I mean ;-)]
See here for links to explanations of how deeply problematic the whole idea is and how it interferes with clear thought about any of the things it refers to, including this strongly argued and well-supported proposal to remove the "severely flawed" category of paraphilias from psychiatric diagnostic manuals.
It is therefore somewhat problematic to have an arbitration case that purports to be covering all of these things that have nothing to do with each other, especially if no-one is sure whether it's supposed to be a union or an intersection.
It's also problematic to add people retrospectively,
-- Daira Hopwood ⚥ ( talk) 06:07, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
While "paraphilia" might not be the most sensitive term in all situations, it is a term that is used in sexology (read the original case for evidence of this). The arbitration committee are not making a value judgement about anything. Whether it is a useful classification, or whether any particular activity should or should not be classified as a paraphilia are irrelevant.
t may also include: In more expansive language I believe that the scope should be interpreted as applying to: All articles dealing with
I am not sure whether it also includes
My gut feeling is that the first of these two bullets is probably included but the second is not. Clarification would be welcome. Thryduulf ( talk) 09:55, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
And is inherently semantically ambiguous and requires English speakers to infer meaning from context. For example, the narrator of Rainy Days and Mondays would clearly be sad on a Friday with precipitation or a sunny 23 September 2013, whereas the predicate of If You're Happy and You Know It clearly implies that joyous children lacking self awareness would not be clapping. Suggest using or where intent is union and the both .. and construct where the committee wishes to specify intersection. NE Ent 09:44, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} at 20:37, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
There have been on-and-off discussions on Talk:Radical feminism since April 2014 regarding the acronym "TERF" (which stands for "trans-exclusionary radical feminists"). Specifically there is disagreement whether or not the term should be considered a slur and thus not used on talk pages in any other context other than the acronym itself or its use by others vis-a-vis the content of the article. Carolmooredc first posted about it on the RadFem article and on WP:XX in April of this year asking users not to use it. Since then there have been various conversations about it here, here, and here. Most recent discussion (seen in the last two links in the previous sentence) has been around asking the ARBCOM to clarify if this acronym constitutes a slur and would thus be under the purview of the Sexology decision regarding transgender issues.
For clarity, it is my personal view that the acronym does not constitute a slur as it is only viewed as such by those it refers to. It is not the same as other widely recognized slurs such as this and this. I have described my views more clearly in the linked talk page discussions above.
This is my first time at ARBCOM so I apologize if any of this is improperly formatted or otherwise incorrect.
Hello. This is also my first arbitration case request so please bare with me if I am not keen on all of the formatting and the rules. But, in my view, this dispute is stemming from the fact that one or two editors feel the need to attribute TERF as a slur. I do not share this view, because it's the exact opposite of a slur. It's an acronym describing a subset of Radical feminism that do not accept trans* folk at all. The reasoning on how this is a slur also baffles me. The fact that some people use it in threatening emails? Well, if we attribute that to being a slur, then we'd also open our doors to everything be a slur, because threatening emails will be threatening regardless of the terminology used. We also don't generally involve ourselves into off wiki disputes. It is of point that it is a useful term to describe the group of radical feminists who don't support trans people. That's all it's being used for on the talk, and that's all it will ever be used for it. It falls incredibly short of being a slur anyways, like Evergreen pointed out the two examples; 'nigger' and 'tranny'. Those terms are made to inflame and insult, this one is made to describe a group and their general POV; like Pro-Choice and Pro-Life. I feel that Arbitration clarification request is the acceptable method for clarification because otherwise it's just 'X says its a slur' and 'Y says that it isn't' and generally gets all muddy and filthy. A clarification would be greatly appreciated. Tutelary ( talk) 21:03, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
This is a behaviour issue but solutions may be dependent on whether the acronym is a slur. Both can be decided by the community in general. If something makes another editor feel uncomfortable then I do wish that we drop it, a very easy way to avoid hurt and contention. Doing so seems to be the deeper sense of what civility is. Not an arbcom issue.( Littleolive oil ( talk) 21:13, 1 September 2014 (UTC))
As I said in the Manning naming dispute Arbcom case, whether something is a slur or not depends on the CONTEXT it is used in - and I'm not sure I can emphasize that enough. We need to quit acting like children on here with no concept of dimension and a two sided construct of language. A word cannot be offensive or nonoffensive. How the word is used can be. That's what matters. Each case must be evaluated on it's individual merits. If someone says "From the TERF perspective, blah blah blah etc etc etc" then that would not be an offensive word. If someone said "The fuck do we care what you think, TERF?" That's offensive. It's simple. CONTEXT!--v/r - T P 22:08, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Arbcom case not needed - only clue and maturity are required here.
The word refers to a well defined, real-world phenomenon, and it is appropriately-sourced. The talk page controversy arose when one editor vowed to go immediately to Arbcom. This seemed to imply a threat of sanctions against editors who did not accede to her insistence that the word was used as a slur and her demand that it be removed from the article. SPECIFICO talk 23:12, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I have not seen any editor use the word to describe or address another editor on WP. We're discussing article content only. Any reference to personal attacks should be supported by a link, otherwise let's not confuse things with red herrings and straw women arguments. SPECIFICO talk 01:04, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Given the Sexology and Bradley Manning arbitrations, I was seeking clarification on what to do about this issue at Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests#Not_sure_if_clarification_or_enforcement_issue. (Note: Issue being loose use of it on the web page to refer to specific individuals or groups of radical feminists in an obviously negative fashion, or any potential use against other editors; removing properly sourced information on the term has not been an issue.) Advice there to bring it to ANI seems sensible. I think an intelligent discussion of the WP:RS calling it a slur and a dozen or so examples of how the term is used to insult and threaten women, if shared at WP:ANI, would clarify the issue for the community. However, if it does seem that this issue belongs here, that information can be shared here. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 00:07, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
According to this article in the Huffington Post, TERF refers to feminists who are transphobic or otherwise discriminate against trans-gender people. Thus, TERFs could arguably meet the definition of a hate group. So, the use of this term to refer to Wikipedia editors could very-well violate WP:NPA and it could violate WP:BLP to refer to a living person unless very robustly sourced. However, it does appear to be the term used in general for anti-trans feminists and thus can be used in that context in the applicable articles. Cla68 ( talk) 00:30, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
After pursuing the meaning of this through the internet for better than an hour, I have come up with this explanation. Some individuals, who Arnold Schwarzenegger might term as "lady-boys", and who have male chromosomes and male genitals, want to use female toilets. Also women's sleeping areas and women's prisons. The reason for this is that they believe gender is social. They say anyone who does not agree with them is trying to deprive them of their rights, and is filled with "hate and exclusion". They loathe women almost as much as they loathe their own bodies, and as a result of believing they have become women, they spend a lot of time on "men's rights" forums trying to enforce strict gender roles and telling women how to act as women. I'm sure I have missed some nuance of this, and that someone will come by and set me straight on some of the detail, but this is definitely a thing. Anyone who resists strict gender roles is deemed a "terf", as in "kill terfs", which according to this New Yorker article, has become a common internet threat.
The two terms mentioned by the OP as being "widely recognized slurs" are no such thing [19] [20], but we can certainly add all of these terms to those that do not belong on the talk pages of Wikipedia. That this term was used by an IP, and not a signed-in user, kind of speaks for itself.
If someone says "From the TERF perspective, blah blah blah etc etc etc" then that would not be an offensive word.I'm just not buying it that (in a similar construction) it's okay to say "From the faggot perspective..." or "From the slut perspective..." as long as you don't say "Die, faggot" or "Die, slut". I'm just not buying it; this is offensive. At the very least, this is a gross misrepresentation of someone's views.
This is an issue way out of any remit of the community or ArbCom, because it's off-wiki drama spilling in, basically, so we can't really make a decision that doesn't affect how we talk about content. That said, from a personal perspective, I tend to view with suspicion anyone who says the phrase "TERF is a slur", because the people who say that tend to have a demonstrable history of transphobia. For example, one of the people cited in the article, Elizabeth Hungerford, wrote a letter to the UN two years ago stating that legislative protections for trans people are " a violation of the human rights of women. What I've noticed, off-wiki, is that people who say the term is a slur never actually say why it's a slur. The term is more comparable to "Tory" or "liberal" than "nigger" or "tranny". On the question of content: transphobic radical feminism is a fringe view even of radical feminism, and anti-transgender perspectives should be given according weight. Sceptre ( talk) 14:04, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by v/r - T P at 19:02, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
On the merits, despite the disagreement of these other editors, I remain of the view that an editor who misbehaves in an AE discussion concerning a topic covered by discretionary sanctions is, themselves, subject to the discretionary sanctions authorized for that topic area, and that the warning at issue (meant as the mildest possible sanction, and not to be confused with a no-longer-loggable alert) was therefore correctly logged.
Moreover, to the extent that the sanction was also in application of WP:AC/DS#Decorum, this case raises the question of whether and where sanctions authorized by that provision should be logged.
While I don't have strong feelings about any of these questions, some clarification with respect to any of them might be helpful for future cases. Sandstein 19:29, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
Arbcom, please don't create any new procedures or any new logs for decorum warnings. The existing ones are working. TParis has argued that the warning to him was logged in the wrong place, but I disagree. If there was to be a warning at all under WP:AC/DS#Decorum, surely it should be added to the log of whatever Arbcom case the complaint was brought under. In my opinion Arbcom should treat this request from TParis as though it was an arbitration enforcement appeal. On that basis, Arbcom has jurisdiction to grant the request if it wants to (without being worried that it is interfering with the closure of the AN thread he filed). Another way to handle this would have been for TParis to file an arbitration enforcement appeal at WP:AE. If that had been done, I'd probably vote to grant the appeal and remove the logged warning. EdJohnston ( talk) 15:50, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Per WP:IAR and the obvious trend here I've removed the warning on the sexology [21]. NE Ent 16:15, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
Sandstein has been brought before ArbCom numerous times over the years for misguided and/or heavy-handed actions in areas subject to discretionary sanctions with this just being the latest incident. I think it would be nice if the Arbs would show some official displeasure with his conduct. At the very least he should be advised or instructed to be more judicious and respectful when carrying out his admin duties in this area. Perhaps you can include it in a motion to grant the appeal by TParis.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 20:52, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
The last two notifications are listed as warnings. I propose we strike through the word "warning" and replace with the word "notified" - since the community has decided that we do notifications not warnings. We should of course also add a note referring to this section. All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough, 19:12, 27 January 2015 (UTC).
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Fæ at 15:14, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
The case Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Sexology was over four years ago. The committee seems overdue to revisit these topics of discretionary sanctions as they lump various modern, appropriate, and non-controversial LGBT+ articles with topics of "abnormal sexual desires". The template that is being used on recent articles of wide interest like Danica Roem, offensively lumps articles about trans people and trans issues with hebephilia. As I would hope Arbcom is sensitive to the difference between gender and sex, Arbcom's own rulings must make that difference clear, in order to avoid unintended downstream outcomes, like the template text "The Arbitration Committee has authorized uninvolved administrators to impose discretionary sanctions on users who edit pages related to transgender issues and paraphilia classification (e.g. hebephilia), including this article" which makes it seem that Arbcom and the Wikipedia community does not understand there is a difference between transgender and paraphilia topics in terms of controversy.
In the four years since the Sexology case, the Wikimedia project landscape and community understanding of LGBT+ topics has changed a lot. For example we now have a well established Wikimedia LGBT+ user group, who may be approached for suggestions if Arbcom would be helped by an independent user group view, Wikimedia has officially funded diversity events and LGBT+ editathons, Wikipedia policies have head-on tackled respectful treatment of trans related articles and biographies, and the quality and variety of LGBT+ related articles has significantly expanded to the public benefit.
I request that Arbcom formally recommend that the current implementation of the Sexology case (2013) is revised so that LGBT+ related articles are treated with respect and sensitivity, even if discretionary sanctions are in place and a template is needed. Further, and possibly within a longer timeframe, I request that Arbcom now review the evidence for Sexology case section 4.1 " Standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all pages dealing with transgender issues and paraphilia classification (e.g., hebephilia)" and if the evidence demonstrates that there is no reason to believe the topic of "transgender" is a battleground, to remove the topic of transgender, until a further case with recent evidence of this being a locus of persistent disruption is brought to the committee and a separate ruling may be made.
I confirm I have an interest in the Wikimedia LGBT+ user group as an active participant and at various times have represented LGBT+ interests at Wikimedia conferences, but this does not represent a conflict of interest and neither was I a party or participant in the case. -- Fæ ( talk) 15:14, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Addendum WRT evidence - After writing this request, it was only after Newyorkbrad's comment that I realized that the Manning case was relevant. The statement in the Manning case added to the Sexology DS with "For the avoidance of doubt, these discretionary sanctions apply to any dispute regarding the proper article title, pronoun usage, or other manner of referring to any individual known to be or self-identifying as transgender, including but not limited to Chelsea/Bradley Manning." As a previous administrator I never enforced a DS, and so not thought to check the Arbcom enforcement log. The log shows that there have been three enforcements of the Sexology DS. All were related to the Chelsea Manning article discussions and the article move, and all are over four years ago. In Wikipedia terms, four years with no enforcement is a very long time, especially when the single locus of disruption requiring enforcement was one article, not transgender or paraphilia articles more generally. There is no evidence apart from opinion, that the Sexology DS have been effective or necessary on any articles apart from Chelsea Manning in the last four years, or that use of the {{ controversial}} would not be as effective to minimize disruptive behaviour, as history appears to show for paraphilia articles. -- Fæ ( talk) 12:24, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
{{
controversial}}
sufficient.Alternative solution proposed: A different template. Either a) a general sexology DS template that doesn't get into specifics, or b) separate templates for paraphilias, for LGBTQI issues, and for sexology as a discipline, to forestall any further dispute and offense caused by them all being lumped together. They were correctly lumped in dealing with disruption about them, as having a similar base cause and nature, but they're not properly correlated in any other way.
Oppose the proposed original solution, because the TG-related articles are still subject to a lot of problematic editing, and the DS should remain. This requester's proposal would throw the dispute reduction baby out with the bad template wording bathwater.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 18:10, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
I agree with SMcCandlish's suggestion to split out three DS templates. It seems to me that that would fix the very annoying issue at hand without requiring substantive changes to the original case. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:57, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
I agree that transgender issues should not be lumped in with paraphilia issues in a DS notice. However, I feel strongly that transgender-related articles should remain under discretionary sanctions. I witness disruption on these articles constantly. Therefore I would support a separate DS notice specific to trans issues. Funcrunch ( talk) 21:24, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
As Fae mentioned above, gender and sexual preference are independent. Wouldn't it make sense to separate transgender templates from lesbian/gay/bisexual templates? Would a sexuality template and a gender template fix these issues? -- DHeyward ( talk) 13:29, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
I was the editor who initially alerted WikiProject LGBT studies about this issue.
I'm not really convinced by the argument that it would be too much work by as claimed by Callanecc. From what I can tell, these are all the articles with this tag:
|topic=pa
for reasons unknown to me.Note that none of these articles are about "paraphilia classification (e.g. hebephilia)"; aside from Kerik, all of these articles are about transgender individuals or topics.
None of the other "areas of conflict" are about such disjoint topics, so this one stands out. And even if you clarify that the topics are "clear it applies to both areas independently", there's no way to prevent it from affecting connotations and building on harmful stereotypes.
Umimmak ( talk) 09:14, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
pa
to something else if this is done to make it less opaque. (I remain neutral as to whether to remove or just rewrite.)I think the best way forwards here is a two-step process. Step one being to replace the current DS authorisation and associated templates with ones covering the three separate areas which collectively cover the same scope as at present. If any topics fall into multiple areas then they can simply be noted as being covered by all that apply and any sanctions necessary can be applied under whichever is more appropriate to the individual circumstances (there is precedent for this - a few years ago the Operation Flavius article was covered by both The Troubles and Gibraltar DS areas, I placed a sanction under the former as that was most relevant to the specific disruption). If there is any disagreement about which of the three topic areas a given page/category should be in then this should be taken to an appropriate noticeboard or wikiproject talk page, with placing it in multiple categories being an option.
Step two is an optional review of whether the DS topics are still required, and a request to the Committee if removal is desired. This should wait until after the migration is complete and any discussions about categorisation have concluded and should examine the topic areas individually as the answer is not necessarily going to be the same for all of them.
This should eliminate the problems initially noted while not throwing out any babies with bathwater. Thryduulf ( talk) 14:20, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
pa
code into two distinct codes, one for transgender issues and one for paraphilia issues? I think this could be done as a clerk actions without a need to modify the underlying sanction.
GoldenRing (
talk) 16:55, 8 November 2017 (UTC)I think people might be reading a bit too much into the two topics being conflated in this remedy. It's not the Committee (then, now or future) making any comment that the issues are equated with each other. Instead, it's the Committee (then) identifying, in the Sexology case, that these two topic areas were/are contentious and that both came up in the same case.
Having said that, I'm minded to remove these discretionary sanctions completely given that the last time discretionary sanctions have been used was three and a half years ago (and that was reinstating a TBAN which had expired). Before that, in 2013, they were only used in relation to the Manning dispute. Callanecc ( talk • contribs • logs) 07:39, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
Remedy 4.1 ("Discretionary sanctions") of the Sexology case is amended to read:
Any sanctions or other restrictions imposed under the previous wording of this remedy to date shall remain in force unaffected.
Remedy 4.1 ("Discretionary sanctions") of the Sexology case is rescinded. Any sanctions or other restrictions imposed under this remedy to date shall remain in force unaffected.
Enacted - Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 23:39, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Jokestress at 20:29, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
I'd like this topic ban reviewed, please. My many created articles on value-neutral scientific concepts in sexuality have stood the test of time as NPOV helpful contributions. Example: Androphilia and gynephilia has hundreds of readers daily, and the terms remain widely used by ethical researchers despite the failed attempt to get it deleted here. The graphics I created for that article have been used in books. The sexologists who disagree with me [23] had their clinic shut down [24] since I was last editing. They and their like-minded allies still remain active editors here. Wikipedia has not kept up with the advances in the field. A few editors with very rigid medicalized views on sex and gender minorities maintain ownership of this subject area, causing our coverage to lag behind the published literature. It bothers me to see such an important topic become so outdated. I promise to be nice and not get frustrated with anonymous editors even when they deadname me, misgender me, and so on. I realize it just goes with the territory of using your real name. Sexuality was a small part of my edit history, but it is an area where I have extensive knowledge. Hope I did this right! Jokestress ( talk) 20:29, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
Be careful not to violate your interaction ban; there was no need to bring up the AFD created by someone you're banned from talking about. That's a separate sanction. Also, while I'm here, I don't understand how the linked edit demonstrated misgendering; are you objecting to someone refering to you using the singular they? FWIW, I'm not familiar with the details underlying the case, but this request gives off a distinct battleground-ish vibe. I'm fairly confident that is not going to be a successful way to appeal a topic ban imposed for, among other things, previous relentless battleground behavior. Perhaps it isn't too late to self-reflect and change your approach? -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 20:50, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
Not involved in the subject at all, but I was curious and went back to the FoFs:
I have to agree with Floq that this seems to maintain an air of battleground seen back in those findings of fact. It seems like this editor is too close to the topic, so I'd be wary about removing the topic ban even though it's six years old. Focus on others and inability to address one's own problems after a ban is a good sign the sanction should remain in place. Kingofaces43 ( talk) 21:00, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
I am somewhat familiar with this case, and like Floq and Kingofaces43 I am struck by just how much of a battleground vibe this request gives off. Additionally, one of the findings of fact in this case related to
Jokestress' off-wiki behavior: Jokestress is a prominent party to an off-wiki controversy involving human sexuality, in which she has been sharply critical of certain individuals who disagree with her views, and has imported aspects of the controversy into the English Wikipedia to the detriment of the editing environment on sexuality-related articles.
I get the distinct impression from this request that they she would do exactly the same again were the topic ban lifted. There is nothing in the case that convinces me they she understood at the time why their her actions were problematic, and I see nothing in this request that convinces me that this has changed.
Accordingly I don't think that lifting the topic ban at this time will be a net positive to the project, and encourage the committee to decline it. Thryduulf ( talk) 21:28, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
I advise everyone to look at this recent ANI thread started by Crossroads, which outlines Jokestress's problematic editing in the areas of human sexuality and gender and how the editor has not changed. Even the above initial post, as noted by two editors before me, shows the same WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. Please do not be fooled by several years having passed. As many know, I am one of the most active editors in the pedophilia and child sexual abuse topic areas, if not the most active, and I have helped get a lot of pedophile and child sexual abuse POV-pushers indefinitely blocked. In fact, Alison and I were key in having such editors blocked or alerting WP:ArbCom to these matters, and WP:CHILDPROTECT was created to help combat the issues. Editors such as Herostratus, Legitimus and myself (just a handful of editors) have consistently kept articles, such as Rind et al. controversy, free of POV-pushing from pedophiles, child sexual abusers and others looking to challenge the medicalization of pedophilia or downplay the effects of child sexual abuse. Over the years, some have come back as WP:Socks, and I have dealt with those as well (often with the help of certain CheckUsers, including Alison and Berean Hunter). Jokestress was savvy enough to avoid getting indefinitely blocked for her behavior in these areas, but she did get topic-banned, and for reasons I and others already outlined there. This editor is very much a threat to the community. Jokestress trying to paint this as silencing a transgender person does not cut it. For those of us who were there -- who know how problematic this editor was at pedophilia and child sexual abuse topics, and other topics -- this was never about Jokestress being transgender.
The sexology case clearly concerned transgender issues as well. And human sexuality is a broad topic, which significantly overlaps with gender (including transgender) aspects. We have various articles, including Transvestic fetishism, Gender variance and Childhood gender nonconformity that show this overlap. Childhood gender nonconformity, for example, very much aligns with an eventual gay, lesbian, or bisexual sexual orientation. Prospective studies have shown this. Furthermore, even Jokestress's first suggestion at Talk:Detransition shows overlap between sexuality and the transgender topic. But even if one thinks human sexuality doesn't cover detransition, it's still the case that making a comparison to the ex-gay movement, as Jokestress did at Talk:Detransition, is definitely on the subject of human sexuality, and therefore a topic ban violation. I do not see that, given her views (including on our policies and guidelines) and how she notoriously tries to go about getting those views implemented, this editor should be allowed to edit sexual or gender topics. This is a person who considers all medicalization a bad a thing, and has repeatedly tried to undermine Wikipedia rules such as WP:MEDRS. I especially don't see how anyone (except for pedophiles, child sexual abusers, and related POV-pushers) can be comfortable letting this person edit pedophilia and child sexual abuse topics. The "that was years ago" line of thinking does not hold up, as seen by their off-Wikipedia activity and recent behavior once finally back on Wikipedia. Jokestress has not changed in all of these years. Jokestress has simply behaved the same way off Wikipedia. Coming back to Wikipedia and acting the way she has recently acted, including ignoring two warnings about her editing in these areas, and it taking an ANI thread to get her to acknowledge that she should stop, speaks volumes. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 22:21, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
And regarding this, this, this and this here and at ANI, WanderingWanda, who I have a tempestuous history with, should not be touching my posts. Nowhere did I call Jokestress a pedophile. The post relates to my experience with pedophile and child sexual abuser POV-pushers, and Jokestress having edited in a similar way -- the same exact thing I stated in the ArbCorm case against her. She was problematic in those areas due to her views on pedophilia and child sexual abuse, indeed challenging the medicalization of pedophilia or downplaying the effects of child sexual abuse, which was reiterated by Crossroads in his ANI thread against her. It is the main reason she was topic-banned from sexuality articles. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 23:29, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
Given recent commentary below, I must state the following: Any claim that our Wikipedia transgender or transgender-related articles are being overran by anti-trans editors is false. There is far more activism going on at these articles than any anti-trans activity. Certain editors want one narrative presented as valid and that's it. If you note an opposing narrative and/or that this opposing narrative should be included and why, they may consider you transphobic/anti-trans. This is despite the fact that transgender people disagree with one another on these matters as well, as seen by this and this source commenting on left-wing transgender YouTuber ContraPoints coming under fire (from those who otherwise supported her) for daring to have different opinions and for daring to include a trans man ( Buck Angel) with different opinions in one of her videos. People, both cisgender and transgender, have different views on what it means to be a woman (as recent discussions at Talk:Woman have shown). Disagreeing on that doesn't automatically make one transphobic/anti-trans. It doesn't make one a bad person. And yet we have editors comparing those who disagree to Nazis at Talk:Feminist views on transgender topics and Talk:TERF. A transgender person with views that deviate from commonly held views in the transgender community may be labeled transphobic/categorized as suffering from internalized transphobia or as truscum. Even me noting that transgender YouTuber Blaire White has commented on this and linking to this YouTube video where she takes on claims of being a transphobic trans woman/a trans woman suffering from internalized transphobia can lead certain editors to deduce "Flyer is transphobic" ( a claim recently rejected by the community). When I mention transgender people like White, it's me acknowledging that transgender people also have diverse views on these topics. It's just that, like White notes, certain voices within the transgender community are louder than others/are more commonly reported on (and more positively) in the media. If other transgender YouTubers or transgender public figures with White's views had Wikipedia articles, I'd mention them as well. The need to note different views on these topics and include those views in our Wikipedia articles if WP:Due is why editors should not be silenced by accusations of being transphobic/anti-trans (unless they truly are transphobic/anti-trans, although this, per what I've noted in this paragraph, can be subjective). This is why Fæ was topic-banned in August. This is why Jokestress editing transgender topics is problematic. Jokestress being transgender doesn't mean that Jokestress editing transgender topics is a good thing. Jokestress is here, like always, to push a narrative. And if anyone disagrees with that narrative, that person is Jokestress's enemy and/or, according to Jokestress, is transphobic. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 14:06, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
I am not at all familiar with the Fae and Jokestress situation, and I do not have a cell phone much less a twitter account. I am cognizant of one thing, that the anti trans editors outnumber and are more active than the pro trans or trans neutral editors. And are quite expert at wp:wikispeak and adept at almost undectable WIKILAWYERING. Thus an opportunity to TBAN a trans advocate increases their ability to push their POV. As regards lumping everything under the topic Human Sexuality is misguided. Pedophilia may have been accepted in ancient Greece and Rome, but it has proven o have harmful/damaging psychological and social effects in the modern age. Some ancient cultures engaged in child sacrifice, but we don't today, I sanction a ban on advocates of pedophilia. But pedophilia is not akin to transsexualism or homosexuality except in the propaganda of many on the religious right. And thus oppose the lumping of transgenderism/transsexuality under the broad umbrella of Human Sexualiity, as much as it might appear to make sense. That or topic bans need to be made narrower and more well defined. Oldperson ( talk) 22:32, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
I want to carefully word this, as to not cast apserions on other editors,but in truth there is a dearth of voices that can speak for the transgendered on wikipedia, especially when the most vocal like Fae and Jokestress have been banned or blocked from speaking out,leaving only a smattering of pro or neutral editors to offset very vocal and "anti-trans" or trans critical editors to dominate the articles and their talk pages, with well practiced civil POV pushing. Oldperson ( talk) 23:35, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
I have read enough about Jokestress' real-world interactions with others who do not wholeheartedly share her views to be uncomfortable with a simple lifting of this ban.
I do not share the evident alarm and hostility of, say, Crossroads, but I do not think that Jokestress is a comfortable fit for the topic area of gender, and especially transgender, despite her being substantially correct in many cases. Guy ( help!) 14:36, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
I urge the Committee to instead reaffirm the topic ban, and clarify that it includes transgender topics. Transgender topics were an integral part of the case. The discretionary sanctions, though now
rescinded as redundant to the GamerGate discretionary sanctions, were authorized for all pages dealing with transgender issues and paraphilia classification
.
[33]
Jokestress was topic banned for good reason, and all the evidence indicates that she has not changed since that time and will immediately resume her old behavior. Indeed, she already has.
I only started editing Wikipedia in 2018, but when looking at the history of her article Bruce Rind, which was successfully deleted at AfD, I found out about her and read the Sexology arbitration case and many of the links therein. I encourage anyone who wants to weigh in to look for themselves. The evidence page from that case contains even more info. [34] From all this, it is clear that Jokestress takes an inappropriate-for-Wikipedia, completely activist approach to sexuality and gender, one that is anti-science, anti-medical (in contradiction to WP:MEDRS), anti-reliable-sources when those sources are ones she does not like (which is often), and frankly, at times is questionable regarding WP:CHILDPROTECT.
Since she mentions she has created sexuality articles, I will point to her article Adult sexual interest in children. This was deleted at AfD for being a POV fork of Pedophilia.
Some statements made by Jokestress about pedophilia
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After the Sexology case, she left Wikipedia for 6.5 years. During this time, her attitude about the Wikipedia community did not change. She still has the mentality of bending Wikipedia to a certain POV, the hostile us-against-them approach, and her attitude about WP:WINNING, as evidenced by some of her tweets just from the last few months.
Tweets
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Now, her recent behavior. At her return, after some userspace edits, she went straight to the lead of the article
Detransition,
adding in that Direct, formal research of "detransition" has shown political parallels between the ex-trans movement and the
ex-gay movement.
Mentioning the ex-gay movement is editing about human sexuality, hence a topic ban violation. The source for this was an activist article in a
predatory journal, and she added other activist non-
WP:MEDRS sources as well. On the talk page she
claimed This is a classic "phenomenon vs. term" political debate. This biased article
reifies a transphobic ideology akin to the
ex-gay movement.
She continued suggesting activist sources on the talk page,
[42]
[43] even though she had been warned about this likely being a topic ban violation.
[44]
[45]
Both here and at the short-lived recent ANI thread [46] she continues unremorseful with the same attitude. She just referred to "Flyer22 and related accounts/IPs", showing the same combativeness and bad faith assumptions.
Jokestress' latest ploy appears to be claiming that she has to be here to correct Wikipedia's supposedly biased treatment of this topic. This is wrong for at least 4 reasons: (1) The comparison with race issues is a
false analogy. Race issues are not a "debate about science"; rather, science refutes racist ideology, and as for so-called
race science, as the article linked to says, Scientific racism is a pseudoscientific belief
. (2) Like other
WP:FRINGE theory pushers, Jokestress is claiming Wikipedia's coverage of a topic is unbalanced and needs her to correct it. However, loading it up with her cherry-picked sources is likely to lead to
WP:FALSEBALANCE. (3) There is no reason to think our coverage of sexuality and gender is biased so that she is needed to correct it. I speak from experience that these topics have editors with a wide variety of viewpoints already, including many who are openly LGBT, and the consensus building process works as it should. (4) Even if it were true that our articles were unbalanced, Jokestress is not the person to help us correct it. Her hostile approach will drive editors away. And the sources she adds are poor.
[47]
[48] They are all activist, are opinionated partisan media pieces, and/or from a predatory journal.
We know her behavior patterns; they're documented for us in the previous case. If her topic ban is lifted, our gender and sexuality articles will be loaded up with carefully selected opinionated sources in service of an agenda. Anyone who opposes this will experience opposition until they are driven away or worn down. What do we expect? She is an activist, and activists engage in activism. And as for the articles specifically on pedophilia, with the comments from her quoted above, I'll leave as an exercise for the reader what that will end up like.
Her topic ban should stay, and it should be clarified that it does cover transgender topics. -Crossroads- ( talk) 00:21, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
@ KrakatoaKatie: To be clear, what is being suggested is not a widening of the topic ban, but rather clarity that it was always meant to be included. Indeed, it is being treated as included already both at ANI and here. Clarity in the topic ban description is needed because this user apparently intends to wikilawyer and edit as close to the edge of her ban as possible. (And in any case, the reasons for her original topic ban apply just as much to transgender topics as to sexuality in the narrow sense.)
I'll briefly address
Jokestress' latest comments. Her statement several editors in human sexuality have stated they have "a personal, possibly monetary [professional], conflict of interest" in the outcome of our sexuality coverage.
appears to be false; there is no "several" I have ever heard of, and this appears to be a thinly veiled reference just to
User:James Cantor, whom she is banned from talking about. Her claims of being indispensible, of most trans editors having been driven away, of a conspiracy of editors having shut down debate, are simply untrue, indeed absurd from my experience in these topics. The issue is not just a lack of evidence of collaboration on her part; it is positive evidence that nothing has changed since last time; that she is actively uninterested in collaborating, but instead in winning, activism, and promotion of fringe views; that she is not sorry for her past behavior; that the same behavior and attitude continues off-wiki; and that it is essentially impossible for her to contribute NPOV content on this topic. As another example of this in particular, check out this enormous "enemies list" style chart on this site
[49] titled "academic pathologization of transgender people".
-Crossroads- (
talk) 06:12, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Thryduulf; and Premeditated Chaos and the other arbitrators: My opinion on the proposed exemption is that she will end up haranguing others on that talk page to get the article changed to her liking. She already has her apparently preferred version lined up here: [50] A big part of the reason for the topic ban is her inability to edit in this topic area, including bios, in cooperation with others (and the record shows this includes talk page discussions). See also the digging up of poor sources on the Detransition talk page: [51] Her own bio will be no different. It can be handled the same as most of our bios: by uninvolved editors in accord with BLP. -Crossroads- ( talk) 20:27, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
GorillaWarfare (and the other arbitrators): It doesn't matter at all how Jokestress edits in other topic areas. That was never the problem, back then or now. She was not topic banned for behavior in those areas. The problem then and now, on and off-wiki, is how she approaches and handles this topic. Her attitude on-wiki is the same as that off-wiki, which has always been consistent. If it continues, as it almost certainly will, then she is fundamentally incompatible with how Wikipedia works in this area, due to COI/ NOTSOAPBOX issues (not to mention her views on pedophilia; compare WP:CHILDPROTECT). I see no need to spend precious time relitigating this again in a mere 6 months (or ever, really) without a fundamental change in Jokestress' approach to this topic, which is extremely unlikely due to her deep seated activist focus. She has every right to be an activist in the real world, but this is not what Wikipedia is for. -Crossroads- ( talk) 06:49, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
I also ask ArbCom to reaffirm the topic ban, and to clarify that it includes transgender topics, more generally than ArbCom has said this already. While such a clarification that "human sexuality" includes "pages having to do with transgender topics and issues" appeared in the recent-ish Fæ ARCA, that user's restrictions read "human sexuality, broadly construed" and the latter two words are missing from those of Jokestress. This has (quite self-evidently) provided WP:WIKILAWYER wiggling room, and that just needs to be shut down and prevented from happening again the next time someone with a gender-issues axe to grind gets disruptive.
Beyond this, I'll just repeat what I said at Jokestress's user-talk page and the ANI thread: The Detransition edit [52] was a T-ban breach twice over, in being about both transgender and LGB politicized issues, and it severably fell under the WP:AC/DS that pertain to such topics (merged with the GamerGate sanctions).
For an editor T-banned from human sexuality to return to the no. 1 most conflict-generating human sexuality topic on Wikipedia (transgender matters), and head straight for potentially the most controversial subtopic within it (detransitioning), and then draw a comparison (in WP:NOT#FORUM- and WP:SOAPBOX-crossing ways, as a drive-by non sequitur seemingly aimed at controversy not at article improvement) using one of the most controversial subtopics of the LGB subject-space (self-declaration of being formerly homo- or bi-sexual), and to do so in an extra-provocative way by citing a brand new paper (primary source, with no impact and with no review outside the journal's own committee yet, if there really even is one) from predatory-journal outfit Science Publishing Group (a publisher whose entire website is on our URL blacklist), suggesting that detransition and ex-gay are far-right, Bible-thumper "discourses" about the "ungodly") – all supposedly without understanding it's a topic-ban breach or disruptive within an AC/DS subject?
Well, it just beggars disbelief, and was amazingly non-productive. If this had been reported to the correct venue (
WP:AE instead of
WP:ANI), I think a block would have been issued on the spot. And the sheer hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance of a gender-identity tolerance activist using WP as a platform to simultaneously attack two self-identity decisions she doesn't like is just stunning, another example of political correctness turned ass-over-elbows. This hasn't been taking a long break to reflect on mistakes made and how to better integrate into a collaborative editing environment. It's just been stewing and biding one's time for years in hopes that editorial attrition, memory lapses, and forgivingness would enable a resumption of the same
WP:GREATWRONGS antics.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 06:35, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
That said, I have to take issue with the idea that we (the community) or you (ArbCom) can evaluate an editor's ability to edit a topic in which they've been long-term disruptive (human sexuality and gender, in this case) by watching how that editor behaves in other topic areas, especially for only six months. We already know for a fact that this editor can bide time for years only to return with the intent to re-engage in the same battleground behavior, is showing signs of "I am the one true topical savior" WP:GREATWRONGS self-importance (the opposite of any sign of growth toward collaborative and neutral editing), and is even exhibiting such a WP:CIR problem that she's asked ArbCom to lift the T-ban specfically so that she can resume that battle. I question the wisdom of offering topical-return hope to this editor, especially given the history of "biding". It seems likely that Jokestress would ride out that six months gnoming and editing trivial, non-controversial topics just to "prove" ability to get along, and then rush right back into the fray as soon as permitted. WP:AGF has to be moderated by the practicality of the WP:DUCK/ WP:SPADE and "our policies are not a suicide pact" principles we've derived from WP:Common sense. "I ... believe that it is possible for people who were unable to edit productively in a topic area to become able to" is effectively irrelevant when the editor in question has already demonstrated beyond all reasonable doubt that it will not happen. Re, "I ... would not support making any topic ban unappealable": No one suggested that, but we have indefinite remedies for a reason, and appealing them every 6 months or so is discouraged, also for good reasons.
PS: I've not looked into DMSBel, but the Barbara (WVS)/Bfpage restriction included "sexuality, broadly construed", which definitely does include gender, per ArbCom's own clarifications in Fæ's and other cases. "Didn't specifically mention gender" and "doesn't cover gender" are nowhere near synonymous, especially after "human sexuality" has already been clarified multiple times to be inclusive of gender identify, and most especially not in a case like this one, in which the "human sexuality" disruption by the editor has involved gender identity the entire time. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 13:08, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Update: I've now looked into DMSBel. The restriction (dating to 2011, before widespread gender-related disruption, so of questionable relevance to begin with) was "the topic of human sexuality, interpreted broadly", which makes no exception for gender-related topics, and was not intended to. The admin informing DMSBel of this clearly noted: "The ban specifically says that it is to be interpreted broadly; pushing the limit on related topics is not recommended." DMSBel ignored this, and became disruptive in obviously related topics, including abortion, and was subject to further and further restrictions until being banned. So, it's a case study in why gender (and abortion, and so on) are necessarily included in "human sexuality", with very few editors having any doubt about that being obvious. Otherwise, the disruption will just shift over a little, skirting the edge of the ban with a bunch of wikilawyering until that gets shut down again. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 13:31, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
this July Atlantic cover story debacle will be a more historically significant journalistic event than nearly anything else in their careers. Everyone involved is going to be held accountable, even if it takes a decade or more. [56]In a blog post response to the article, she wrote:
One of Ms. James' recent ventures was a kickstarter for a data visualisation project she claims will identify transphobia in the media; it received US$23,302 in backing. She explicitly identified the detransition-related Atlantic article as her motivation [58] and used it in fundraising appeals [59]. ( Alice Dreger, who has alleged harassment and threats from Ms. James, described the kickstarter asThe "ex-trans" movement, similar to the discredited "ex-gay" movement, can always count on axe-grinding coverage that vastly over-represents their numbers and POV. [...] The "ex-trans" movement is an anomaly, a rounding error, a tragedy to be sure, but ultimately a fringe movement embraced and amplified by bigots. [57]
a page to crowdfund her work harassing me and others [60];the author of the Atlantic piece, Jesse Singal, called it
such a massive grift [61]) It appears to me that Ms. James has a personal, possibly monetary, conflict of interest with the topic detransition, and that her article edit adding
ex-gay movementand an "'Ex-Trans' Activists Exposed" ref prominently to the lead [62], as well as talk page edits labelling the article biased [63] [64], are inappropriate advocacy importing an off-wiki conflict. gnu 57 13:04, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
While this is open and despite being informed that she is violating her topic ban she is still contributing to the talk page at Talk:Detransition. [65] AIRcorn (talk) 17:18, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
1. Jokestress's tenure was before my time and I have no strong opinion about her topic ban. I do know that if I was in her position I would've gone about things a bit differently: I wouldn't have broken the ban before asking for it to be lifted, for example, and wouldn't have gone after other editors when making the request.
2. I am taken aback by some of the quotes by Jokestress about child sexual abuse above, and this isn't just an academic but a personal issue for me. I was also, however, concerned by some of Flyer22's statements: I have helped get a lot of pedophile and child sexual abuse POV-pushers indefinitely blocked
...Jokestress was savvy enough to avoid to getting indefinitely blocked for her behavior in these areas
...This editor is very much a threat to the community
...I especially don't see how anyone (except for pedophiles, child sexual abusers, and related POV-pushers) can be comfortable letting this person edit pedophilia and child sexual abuse topics.
I understand this is a difficult topic to talk about, but these statements, to me, go beyond just
commenting on content, and instead publicly brand editors with a scarlet letter. And they don't just brand Jokestress herself, but any editor who would support lifting her topic ban and giving her a second chance. With that said, I've been told that it was inappropriate for me to attempt to redact Flyer's statements myself. I fully agree and apologize.
WanderingWanda (
talk) 09:38, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Jokestress has failed to show she can work sensibly in this topic area. I find it bizarre that an editor specialising in transgender issues could seriously think, even for a minute, that there should be a 100 percent ‘success’ or ‘satisfaction’ ratio of people with gender dysphoria or identity issues who transition, and then conclude and POV push on Wikipedia that the small number of said people changing their mind and detransitioning represents transphobia, etc. This rigid, inflexible and extreme black and white thinking, combined with concerns raised by editors above, suggests that this editor is not WP:COMPETENT to be editing in this area. People do change over time and while it may seem unlikely at this juncture who knows perhaps Jokestress can prove us wrong, in say a year from now, by editing sensibly in other topic areas before appealing this topic ban, at a later date.-- Literaturegeek | T@1k? 22:54, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Although I can see a small possibility in the future that Jokestress could find a pathway to return to editing transsexualism articles perhaps in a year from now, which is an area of her expertise, I do think she should be kept away indefinitely from the pedophilia range of articles for reasons highlighted above by other editors.-- Literaturegeek | T@1k? 17:43, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
...from the topic of human sexuality and gender. I'm not sure how that works with the "including biographies" provision, though. Everyone has a sexuality and a gender, so was the idea to t-ban Jokestress from all biographies? Or just those of people notable for something related to sexuality/gender? If the latter, we should clarify whether the subject simply being trans prevents Jokestress from editing their biography (I'd say it shouldn't). – Joe ( talk) 07:04, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
human sexuality. The committee has repeatedly ruled 1 2 that transgender issues are within that scope. With the scope not in doubt, we could only clarify the nature and meaning of a Wikipedia:Topic ban. We should not need to do that every time an editor is topic banned. I endorse Joe Roe,
the subject simply being trans prevents Jokestress from editing their biography (I'd say it shouldn't), but the existing language says the same. The language never supported an attempt to ban Jokestress from every biography. AGK ■ 11:55, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
We should not need to do that every time an editor is topic banned, I think if we want editors who are topic banned from human sexuality to assume that they are also restricted from editing gender-related articles as a result of clarifications made after their bans were placed, we need to at least explicitly notify them, if not directly modify their sanctions. This last point may be a bit academic, though–a quick search through the editing restrictions archive confirms Jokestress is the only editor with an ArbCom topic ban from "human sexuality" (though there are two editors, DMSBel and Barbara (WVS)/ Bfpage, with community-placed topic bans with scopes that include "human sexuality" but not gender). GorillaWarfare (talk) 06:41, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Remedy 2.1 of Sexology ("Jokestress topic-banned from human sexuality") is amended to read:
Enacted -- Cameron11598 (Talk) 06:24, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
and excepting the submission of comments or edit requests to Talk:Amanda James. Could the clerks make sure that Joe Roe and KrakatoaKatie confirm they are okay with the change? AGK ■ 11:28, 19 November 2019 (UTC)