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The source Al-Masdar News is used extensively at the article Battle of Aleppo (2012–16), as well as many other Syria related articles. Now, this source has an obvious and very strong pro-Assad bias, as even those editors who want to use it admit. It's also a fairly new source which has become somewhat popular mostly due to the fact that it's stories get reposted by various alt-right outlets and conspiracy websites, such as Alex Jones' InfoWars. Indeed, they are the ones behind the #SyriaHoax conspiracy theory [1] [2]. They have been designated as a " fake news" website by some outlets [3], although not everything they publish is obvious "fake news".
So I'm pretty sure this source is NOT reliable, generally speaking. However, in the interest of compromise, I'm willing to see it used for non-controversial text such as troops strength or territorial control, especially since this kind of info can often be corroborated with other sources. Per WP:REDFLAG however, there's no way in freakin' heck that this source should be used for anything controversial, as some editors are attempting to, for example here (this has been removed and reinserted several times)
But it gets worse.
Recently it came out that one of the deputy editors of al-Masdar has been active on the neo-Nazi website Stormfront for years, where, in addition to using it to organize violent attacks on minorities and others, he disparaged ethnic groups using terms such as "sand niggers" (sic), "gooks" (sic) and "favela monkeys" (sic). [4] [5]. The CEO of al-Masdar has admitted that this is indeed the case and the guilty editor was suspended... with pay (basically they gave him a nice vacation hoping this would blow over). Another editor at al-Masdar however, tried to play it all down saying the statements on Stormfront were merely "controversial" (because you know, talking about how you like to "beat up sand niggers" is just "controversial")
I've brought this issue up at the talk page [6]. The response from one of the most tendentious supporters of al-Masdar was ... and I am NOT kidding here - that "if a NY Times editor was caught making the same offensive remarks at Stormfront, we wouldn't be dismissing NYT as a source altogether on Wikipedia".
That's right - that was the response. Apparently, it's okay to use a source which employs neo-Nazis, because if in some alternative bizarro world universe, the New York Times employed neo-Nazis, the alternative Wikipedia of that universe would still use the NY Times as a source. You can't make this stuff up. Personally I think a comment such as this is so a blatant statement of non-neutrality, bias, bad faith, WP:BATTLEGROUND and dishonesty, that it should lead to an immediate topic ban from an area, but never mind that for now. This is WP:RSN.
Now, there is a related RfC on the talk page at the article. However, this article has had a problem with sock puppets, meat puppets and tag teams (most likely coordinated off-wiki) for years. Hence it needs some fresh eyes and help from uninvolved editors. Which is why I'm bringing it up here. Also, I think it should be pretty obvious that a few obstinate editors cannot get together and declare a non-reliable source magically reliable in contravention of site-wide consensus as represented by WP:RS which I assume disallows the use of sources that have neo-Nazis writing for them, at least for any controversial info. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 05:13, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
The politics of the source are irrelevant when determining it's status as RS. What matters if do they have proper editorial control and check facts, not that they believes a certain ideology. Does the nominator have any evidence they make up facts? Slatersteven ( talk) 10:29, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
Calling a journalist a "neo-Nazi" because he's alleged to have made racist comments sounds like a BLP violation. It should be removed.
The NY Times publishes inaacurate information. When they do they publish corrections. The NY Times published plagarized articles. When discovered they asked the author to resign. We don't demand that sources never make mistakes but when discovered take action to correct them.
A journalist at al-Masdar is alleged to have made racist posts on a website. al-Masdar has suspended the journalist while they investigate. That is exactly what we expect from sources.
VM's most recent argument against al-Masdar ( he has campaigned for some time to eliminate it) is:
Two points:
The difficulty in this conflict is a lack of neutral, on-the-ground reporting. Ideally we look for particular claims to be confirmed by all. Failing that, we balance the bias of each with their others.
Note: I checked the contributions of the now-banned editor above. They seem to have specifically targetted VM's contributions for reversion. Almost equally concerning is the edits they reverted: VM's removal of al-Masdar in all (most) articles it was used, concluding on his own that it was unusable: Syrian Civil War (note the edit-summary), Aleppo, Ma'rib, Women's Protection Units, M1 Abrams, Russian involvement in the Syrian Civil War, Faisal al-Qassem, Criticism of Amnesty International, Human rights violations during the Syrian Civil War – there may be more.
I have posted a notice of this discussion to the talk page of Battle of Aleppo (2012–16), where most of the discussion re: al-Masdar has taken place. James J. Lambden 🇺🇸 ( talk) 18:44, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
First, in Syria, basically there are no reliable sources. We ether use pro-government Masdar or pro-opposition SOHR for the most part. The removal of one would lead to the removal of the other as well and it would disturb Wikipedia's balance of neutrality according to which we present both side's POV and not exclude one over the other, regardless what most think about that beligerent. Plus, it would cannibalize most of the content and sources of the Syria-related articles. Second, Masdar is a good source when it comes to territorial changes (advances/losses), when citing commanders and/or units or casualty figures. This can be seen in the fact that 80-90 percent of the territorial changes reported by Masdar are also reported by the pro-opposition SOHR. So in this case they are reliable. Third, there is no evidence Masdar was aware of the personal views of that one specific contributor, they suspended him the moment they were and Masdar itself didn't promote neo-Nazi views or expressed support for Nazis. Four, whether you or me think the Assad government is an extremist government is our personal POV which has no place when editing. Also, sidenote, Marek's unilateral removal of Masdar throughout multiple articles while a discussion on it is ongoing (with most leaning towards using Masdar via RfC) is not in good faith I think. Finally, most editors agreed through discussion (via RfC) that if Masdar's claims are properly attributed to pro-government Masdar there is no reason not to present those claims in contrast to the views of the pro-opposition SOHR or the US/UK/France who are anti-Assad in their views. Thus, I will conclude that I agree with both @ Slatersteven: and @ James J. Lambden:. EkoGraf ( talk) 18:59, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
( edit conflict) Stop trying to spin-doctor this, Khirurg, MyMoloboaccount, et. al. We are not talking about a huge WP:NEWSORG with thousands of employees and casual contributors: we're talking about a tiny organisation that we can't even find confirmation of where they're based for. Antonopoulos wasn't some small-fry who could be easily lost in the day-to-day machinations, he is a founding member and Deputy Editor from at least 2015 until a few days ago (see this archived capture all the way through to the latest capture here). All of the posturing aside, this means that al Madsar fails per WP:QUESTIONABLE, full stop. It is absolutely WP:NOTRELIABLE (and that is a policy, not a guideline). Talk about editorial oversight! -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 23:09, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
:::Sure, the guy's own damn twitter (google it). Enough for ya?
Volunteer Marek (
talk) 16:06, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
Please people, if you think a user should be banned report him. This is adding nothing to the debate. Slatersteven ( talk) 22:19, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
I think the best way to deal with this, since no better sources are available for this information, would be exercise good judgment and consistently provide attribution to the source. If something is an obvious puff piece about how Assad loves puppies, then it should be excluded, but other facts that might be appropriate can be added with attribution. Seraphim System ( talk) 03:24, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
I would like to make the following proposal and have a straw poll on to see where the community stands.
Support as nom. Khirurg ( talk) 04:47, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
Support per WP:USEBYOTHERS. Volunteer Marek does have a point about WP:RS, however. In particular, WP:RSBREAKING suggests "distrusting unconfirmed reports and those attributed to other news media". The two policies seem contradictory. But, RSBREAKING goes on to suggest that you "wait a day or two after the event. This gives time for investigative authorities to make official announcements". Once the Syrian government has authoritatively investigated and made an official announcement, you can add it, apparently. Ditto announcements by law-enforcement authorities in Moscow, Beijing, Ferguson, or elsewhere. -- Dervorguilla ( talk) 05:55, 2 May 2017 (UTC) 00:21, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Oppose In war both sides tell lies, we should not more assume that Al-Masdar is unreliable (or not) as any other involved party (and yes that includes the western media, we are involved). What we should do is attribute their claims to them. Slatersteven ( talk) 11:14, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
Support Although I agree with Slatersteven that all Masdar claims should be used, if properly attributed, for the sake of compromise I support Khirurg's proposal, which is basically the same one I proposed over at the Battle of Aleppo article's talk page and which got a two-thirds approval already a few days ago. I would just add that when its the only source for some tactical information (territorial changes) we add the wording reportedly. EkoGraf ( talk) 11:32, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
Support This proposal is pretty well thought out and I think it's a good compromise. As long as Al-Masdar's claims are taken seriously by multiple sources, I don't see why it shouldn't be included, even if it is meant to deny or reject their claims. I also do think that some (controversial) stand-alone claims by Al-Masdar should be included as well, provided that there's a large consensus for it. But this should be conducted in a case-by-case fashion. Wikipedia is in desperate need of sources that are on the ground that can present varying viewpoints of the conflict. Al-Masdar is the answer for that. Dismissing it would be a grave disservice to the project's readership. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 04:53, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
First and foremost, Al-Masdar has no neo-Nazi leanings. Paul is no longer affiliated with the company; I know this because I work there. The only founding member is Leith Abou Fadel. Zen Adra founded the Arabic version. Paul did not join Al-Masdar until late 2015. None of us knew about Paul's previous history on this neo-Nazi forum, so it came to shock to all of us.
Paul typically wrote op-eds which at times were controversial, so Leith asked him to move it to the opinion section. In general, Al-masdar just deals with breaking news. Op-eds and opinion pieces are not our thing.
While many accuse us of being funded by the Syrian and Iranian governments, we are privately funded and do not have any affiliation with any government.
If you guys want to smear the Al-Masdar page with attacks on its reliability, then we would appreciate the page being removed. It is unfair that the entire section on Al-Masdar is about how unreliable we are and quotes from other news agencies that don't agree with our reports.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Yusufalazma1925 ( talk • contribs) 19:40, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
How does SOHR differ?
Support This would not be my first choice but it's a reasonable and well thought out compromise. James J. Lambden 🇺🇸 ( talk) 17:32, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
Support per nommeans that I agree with almost every single word Khirurg (who made this proposal) said, and that I am under no obligation whatsoever to make additional explanations.
RSN rulesUser:Neutrality mentions here below? Sure, polling is no substitute for discussion, but neither is filibustering.
Let's just cut straight to the core issue. Does it have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy? That is he only question that matters. Just looking over its (relatively brief) history and the arguments people are making above, I think the answer is a definite no. In a quick Google search, the story mentioned at the top of this section seems to be the only in-depth reporting on Al-Masdar News. People have taken their eyes off the ball in arguing over those accusations - the point isn't whether we agree or disagree with what the Business Insider article says. The point is that that article - and a few other sources that touch on the same thing in the same tone - are definitely, absent something I haven't seen, the best source to go by for Al-Masdar's reputation; and that reputation is absolutely awful. Therefore, it's clearly a really bad source. The proposal above (and the !voting over it) strikes me as mostly silly - what's the point of saying that a bad source can be used only for uncontroversial claims? Technically the standard for uncontroversial stuff is low, but if a claim is uncontroversal, it should be easy to find it in a better source, and if it's in a better source, use the better source. Don't use terrible sources like this one. -- Aquillion ( talk) 10:10, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm posting here because we were requested to take our dispute here by @ Winged Blades of Godric: who closed our DRN with the recommendation [10]:
"There seems to be be little progress towards a common consensus in spite of the extensive discussions. Participants are requested to take this for formal mediation or to WP:RSN."
I don't see how formal mediation can work, as there is no sign of any consensus emerging or likely to emerge on this. But clarification on reliable sources perhaps could help.
First some background. The reason for the DRN is that I wished to tag Four Noble Truths, Anatta, Nirvana and Karma in Buddhism as POV. I tried adding a tag to one of these articles [11], but it was removed [12]. There was no consensus on the talk page to remove the tag. We have tried a DRN in order to resolve the dispute, but there is still no consensus about whether they can be tagged as POV.
One of the main issues in this discussion is that we have different ideas of what count as WP:RS in the Buddhism topic area. My view is that recognized and well regarded experts in Buddhist scholarship such as Walpola Rahula, Bhikkhu Bodhi, the Dalai Lama (who is a scholar with the highest academic qualifications available in Tibetan Buddhism), Bikkhu Sujato, Ringu Tulku, Thích Nhất Hạnh, Ajahn Sumedho, Geshe Tashi Tsering, Chogyam Trungpa, Pema Chodron etc would all count as WP:RS secondary sources in the Buddhism topic area.
@
Joshua Jonathan: and @
Ms Sarah Welch: often reverts edits which cite experts such as these on the basis that they are not backed up by Western academic sources
[13]. They say this is what is meant by the requirement for "secondary sources" because they are "two steps away"
[14]. See also the discussion summarized here
[15]. There articles, as a result, often have only a few sentences here and there based on these
WP:RS while most of the article will cover the views of these western academics and their many criticisms and reformulations of sutra tradition Buddhism.
If Buddhist scholars in all the Buddhist traditions are recognized as WP:RS that can be used in their own right, then the current articles are POV as they only present their views as coloured by the criticisms and reinterpretations of western academic Buddhists, and the balance is also greatly in favour of the views of the western academics. So, we need this clarified first, which I think is why @ Winged Blades of Godric: suggested this as our next stop rather than the NPOVN (edited after discussion with @ Ms Sarah Welch: below. Robert Walker ( talk) 14:35, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Robert McClenon: summarized my reasons well in his recent post to the DRN [16]:
"As noted, Christianity is presented primarily as it is seen by Christians. Jewish, Muslim, secular humanist, and Buddhist views of Christianity are discussed, but are not the primary way that Christianity is presented. Buddhism should be presented primarily in terms of what Buddhist scholars interpret as the teachings of Gautama Buddha, not what non-Buddhist Western scholars say about the teachings of the Buddha."
It is my understanding from the reliable sources guidelines that this is how WP:RS should be interpreted in this topic area. That it should be represented primarily in terms of what Buddhist scholars interpret as the teachings of Gautama Buddha, not what non Buddhist Western scholars say about the teachings of the Buddha. You can see @ Joshua Jonathan:'s view on the matter from his comment here [17]:
"The Four Noble Truths article already contains the line "While the Theravada-tradition holds the sutras to be the complete and accurate records of the teachings and sayings of the Buddha". This line was added by me, without a source; it can be referenced with and expanded on with your authors (though I would prefer a scholarly source, but alas; Prayudh Payutto seems to be as orthodox and indigenous as can be).
Prayudh Payutto is regarded as one of the most pre-eminent Buddhist scholars in Thailand with many honours. Buddhism has a long history of scholarship dating back to before we had universities in Europe. When @ Joshua Jonathan: says he is not a scholar, he just means, he hasn't got a PhD etc from a Western university. He is of the view that Bhikkhu scholars - i.e. scholar monks, and those who have been trained as scholars in this tradition in other countries, for instance in the Tibetan, Sri Lankan or Thailand traditions of Buddhist scholarship, are not reliable secondary sources in this topic area. He says that their work can be used only as interpreted by "non indigenous" western scholars. @ Joshua Jonathan:has made similar comments in the past numerous times. If I can summarize his views, if I understand them right, he claims that the article is NPOV because the SUBPOV of sutra tradition Buddhism has been demonstrated to be biased or mistaken by western academic Buddhist scholars, and this has to be explained in the article. @ Ms Sarah Welch: is of a similar view.
@ Dorje108: puts it like this:
"I think the mistake that both JJ and Sarah are making is that they continually insist "assert" that Rahula and other Buddhist scholars (or scholars who happen to be Buddhists) are “biased”, but that Western academic (who are not Buddhists) are “unbiased.” Therefore, by this logic, the Dalai Lama (for example) as a source should be regarded carefully (as biased), but a Western scholar is not biased. Therefore a presentation or POV by a Western scholar should be given more weight. What I think RW is suggesting (and I agree with this suggestion) is that where there are different points of view in presentation of a topic (whether among different Western academics, or between Western academics and Buddhist scholars), that both POVs should be presented. What I encountered repeatedly in my discussions with JJ (from years ago) and what I have observed in recent discussion, is that when encountered with different POVs, both Sarah and JJ insist that one POV is valid (not biased), and the other POV is not valid (biased). Another problem I observed was that JJ seemed to be trying to write a definitive article on the Four Noble Truths. In other words, he seems to be taking on the role of an academic himself, in deciding what is correct and what is not correct interpretation of Buddhist teachings. Apologies for the length of this post. I am sure everyone involved has the best intentions, and we all have our own personal biases. Also, this is a vast topic, so it is not easy to summarize. But in brief I agree with RW’s point that the current article is not written from a neutral POV (for reasons stated above). I hope this helps"
See Dorje108's comment and discussion
I should explain here, that the Dalai Lama, many westerners don't realize, is qualified academically with the highest qualification available in Tibetan scholarship, the Geshe Lharampa degree [18] which requires 15 years study so is more demanding than a Western PhD. Few westerners have passed this qualification. He also, unusually, is thoroughly versed in all four of the schools of Tibetan Buddhism, and is the author of numerous books on Buddhism. So he is a WP:RS here because of his academic status, as a Buddhist scholar, not because he is a Dalai Lama. Previous Dalai Lamas have sometimes not been academic at all, but the present day one is unusually academically gifted and was recognized as such by Tibetan Buddhist scholars from a young age.
This is a debate that's been going on in the article talk pages since 2014 when @ Joshua Jonathan: did non consensus major rewrites of the articles against the objections of other editors of the articles. He did these rewrites to present the topic from the SUBPOV of academic Buddhism. The previous versions were in a stable state and represented the SUBPOV of sutra tradition Buddhism. @ Joshua Jonathan: and others keep previously active editors and new sutra tradition editors out of this topic area by reverting their edits whenever they attempt to insert material on their SUBPOV into the articles. He does this on the basis that (in his view) the sources they wish to use are not secondary WP:RS. See DRN Evidence.
Robert Walker ( talk) 07:49, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
Sutra tradition Buddhists number in hundreds of millions. These countries all have a majority of Buddhists of these faiths, either Theravada or Mahayana or Vajrayana but all rely on the same core sutras of the Pali Canon which is around the size of an encyclopedia.
(from Buddhism by country)
So, sutra tradition Buddhism in its various manifestations is a major world faith according to the guidelines on religous sources. It's hard to get a figure for the numbers who have the views of western academic Buddhists but they surely can't be in their millions. So why should the articles on Buddhism in wikipedia mainly represent the views of the western academic Buddhists as their POV and only touch on the views of sutra tradition Buddhists in a few sentences here and there, mainly to criticize them? Robert Walker ( talk) 07:49, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
My suggestion is for the main articles to represent the views of sutra tradition Buddhists. I agree that the views of academic western Buddhists are detailed and complex enough to require entire articles, but if this is the case, as I believe @ Joshua Jonathan: has demonstrated with his rewrites of these articles - I think the readers will be better served by separating these out into separate articles for western academic WP:SUBPOVs, not to try to merge them into one. Indeed I think this would lead to greater clarity about the views of western academics as well as about the views of sutra tradition Buddhists.
Incidentally, for clarity, by the "western academic SUBPOV" I mean the POV of many western academics according to which when Buddha became enlightened as a young man, what happened is that he had an understanding that he would be free of suffering when he died by not taking rebirth again, a view that they elaborate in much intricate detail, and based on questioning the authenticity of the Pali Canon and attempting to unearth the original teachings of the Buddha. There are many variations on this idea explained in the current articles. @ Joshua Jonathan: summarizes the view of one of the authors with this POV, at the end of his "Therevadha" section [19] as
"According to Ambedkar, total cessation of suffering is an illusion; yet, the Buddhist Middle Path aims at the reduction of suffering and the maximalisation of happiness, balancing both sorrow and happiness"
By the sutra tradition SUBPOV I mean the view according to which Buddha when he became enlightened realized cessation not just of suffering but all forms of unsatisfactoriness already right there on the spot. Though he became old, got sick, and died, none of these were "dukkha" or unsatisfactory for him. Those who hold this view consider the sutras to be the authentic teachings of the Buddha and don't think there is any need to try to work out what Buddha originally taught or thought on matters such as the Four Noble Truths, Anatta etc as we already know this from the sutras. Many Buddhists have this view not just through faith but also through reasoning based on internal and external evidence, as explained here: Pali Canon#Authorship according to Theravadins. This view is shared by some Western scholars, who would then fall into the SUBPOV of sutra tradition Buddhism on this matter. Walpola Rahula was a famous example of an author trained in both western scholarship (PhD from a western university and professor at a western university for many years) and Buddhist tradition scholarship who held the views of the sutra tradition Buddhists.
For instance Walpola Rahula writes (in his famous book "What the Buddha Taught" on the essential teachings of Therevadhan Buddhism):
"In almost all religions the summum bonum can be attained only after death. But Nirvana can be realized in this very life; it is not necessary to wait till you die to 'attain' it."
Failing agreement to have separate articles, which we don't have currently, I wish to add POV tags to all four articles and since sutra tradition Buddhists will not be able to edit the articles to represent their views, and have not been able to do so since 2014, then the next step seems to be to invite discussion about whether the articles are POV as suggested in WP:NPOVD. So, it seems our next stop is the NPOV noticeboard, if it is agreed that Prayudh Payutto, Bhikkhu Bodhi, the Dalia Lama etc are indeed WP:RS for the SUBPOV of sutra tradition Buddhism.
Both SUBPOVs agree that when Buddha became enlightened he said that this is his last rebirth. They disagree however on whether he realized cessation of dukkha as a young man of 30, or whether he only had an end to dukkha when he entered paranirvana when he died. This difference in SUBPOV has many ramifications and is one of many differences in view that they have.
Robert Walker ( talk) 07:49, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
I've summarized the situation for reliable sources in sutra Buddhism in my essay here: Essay on Reliable Sources in Buddhism and a Proposal. I invite comments on this essay, and for confirmation that I have understood the guidelines on WP:RS properly or indeed, of course correction, if @ Joshua Jonathan: is the one who has a correct understanding of the guidelines here. I also welcome any suggestions about where to take this next, is the NPOVN the natural next place to go, or are there other alternatives? Robert Walker ( talk) 07:32, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
I don't object to using Buddhist sources; Prayudh Payutto, for example, is fine; he seems to be quite representative of a truly orthodox line of thought in Theravada, so, that's good (and I agreed with using him). Note that there are good Buddhist sources, and also academic scholarly sources by Buddhists; note also that the articles in questions refer to both Buddhist and academic scholarly sources.
What I object to is basing an article solely on a personal (mis)understanding of Buddhism, based on a selective range of popular sources aimed at a large, uninformed audience; writing articles that contain large amounts of WP:OR and WP:SYNTHESIS, and misrepresent even those those pop-sources; and violating WP:NPOV, by relying solely on those pop-sources. Robert's prefered "previous versions" were not in a stable state, nor did they represent the point of view of "sutra tradition Buddhism" (what does that neologism refer to?) in an adequate way.
Regarding Robert's explanation (thanks, Robert) "By the sutra tradition SUBPOV I mean the view according to which Buddha when he became enlightened realized cessation not just of suffering but all forms of unsatisfactoriness already right there on the spot.", let me quote from that DRN:
"Robert thinks that the release of dukkha is the sole goal of the Buddhist path, and that the end of rebirth is not a/the goal. He thinks that "ending rebirth" is a western scholarly re-interpretation, despite more than a dozen references + quotes ( section "ending rebirth, note "Moksha", note "samudaya", note "Samsara", note "Nirodha"), from both scholarly sources and Buddhist sources, which say that the Buddhist "goal" implies both. To compare:
* Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta [20]: "But as soon as this [...] knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths [...] was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening [...] Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'"
* Bhikkhu Bodhi (2011), The Noble Eightfold Path: Way to the End of Suffering, p.10: "[the] elimination of craving culminates not only in the extinction of sorrow, anguish and distress, but in the unconditioned freedom of nibbana, which is won with the ending of reapeated rebirth." [5]
* Keown (2009), Buddhism, p.65: "The ultimate goal of Buddhism is to put an end to suffering and rebirth."
Robert is persistent on this personal pov of him; his proposal for a pov-fork is to split off all the scholarly statements and info into a separate article, and revert the main article back to his preferred version. That's not an option."
To add: this is what the Four Noble Truths article says:
* "But there is a way to end this cycle and reach real happiness,[18][note 5] namely by letting go of this craving and attaining nirvana, whereafter rebirth and dissatisfaction will no longer arise again.[note 6][19]"
* "The truth of nirodha, the cessation of dukkha, is the truth that dukkha ceases, or can be confined,[38] when craving and clinging cease or are confined, and nirvana is attained.[19] Nirvana refers to the moment of attainment itself, and the resulting peace of mind and happiness (khlesa-nirvana), but also to the final dissolution of the five skandhas at the time of death (skandha-nirvana or parinirvana); in the Theravada-tradition, it also refers to a transcendental reality which is "known at the moment of awakening."[74][75][76][77] According to Gethin, "modern Buddhist usage tends to restrict 'nirvāṇa' to the awakening experience and reserve 'parinirvāṇa' for the death experience.[78] When nirvana is attained, no more karma is being produced, and rebirth and dissatisfaction will no longer arise again.[note 6] Cessation is nirvana, "blowing out," and peace of mind.[80][81][82] Joseph Goldstein explains:
Ajahn Buddhadasa, a well-known Thai master of the last century, said that when village people in India were cooking rice and waiting for it to cool, they might remark, "Wait a little for the rice to become nibbana". So here, nibbana means the cool state of mind, free from the fires of the defilements. As Ajahn Buddhadasa remarked, "The cooler the mind, the more Nibbana in that moment". We can notice for ourselves relative states of coolness in our own minds as we go through the day.[82]"
* "Within the Theravada-tradition, three different stances on nirvana and the question what happens with the Arhat after death can be found.[74][75][76][77] Nirvana refers to the cessation of the defilements and the resulting peace of mind and happiness (khlesa-nirvana); to the final dissolution of the five skandhas at the time of death (skandha-nirvana or parinirvana); and to a transcendental reality which is "known at the moment of awakening."[74][note 43] According to Gethin, "modern Buddhist usage tends to restrict 'nirvāṇa' to the awakening experience and reserve 'parinirvāṇa' for the death experience.[78] According to Geisler and Amano, in the "minimal Theravada interpretation", nirvana is a psychological state, which ends with the dissolution of the body and the total extinction of existence.[75][77] According to Geisler and Amano, the "orthodox Theravada interpretation" is that nirvana is a transcendent reality, with which the self unites.[77] According to Bronkhorst, while "Buddhism preached liberation in this life, i.e. before death,"[171] there was also a tendency in Buddhism to think of liberation happening after death. According to Bronkhorst, this
...becomes visible in those canonical passages which distinguish between Nirvana - qualified in Sanskrit and pali as 'without a remainder of upadhi/upadi (anupadhisesa/anupadisesa) - and the 'highest and complete enlightenment'(anuttara samyaksambodhi/sammasambodhi). The former occurs at death, the later in life.[172]
According to Walpola Rahula, Buddhism "shows you the way to perfect freedom, peace, tranquility and happiness,"[web 26] which is nirvana.[web 24] According to Walpola Rahula, the cessation of dukkha is nirvana, the summum bonum of Buddhism, and is attained in this life, not when one dies.[web 24] According to Walpola Rahula, nirvana is "Absolute Truth," which simply is,[web 24][note 44] while Jayatilleke also speaks of "the attainment of an ultimate reality."[174] According to Bhikkhu Bodhi, the "elimination of craving culminates not only in the extinction of sorrow, anguish and distress, but in the unconditioned freedom of nibbana, which is won with the ending of reapeated rebirth."[177]"
So, the article uses both Buddhist and academic sources; it represents Robert's supposed "sutra tradition point of view"; in addition, it makes clear that nirvana has multiple meanings in Buddhism, not just what Robert thinks is "sutra tradition"; and it makes clear that nirvana as cessation and peace is reached here in this life, and that it implies that there will be no more rebirth. That's not an academic reintepretation, that's what Buddhism says. See also what Bhikkhu Bodhi on rebirth and Thanissaro Bhikkhu on rebirth, real Buddhist bhikkhus, quotes in the Wiki-article, have to say about the western idea that rebirth is not part of the Buddhist package.
References
NB: still walls of text...
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 08:07, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
"The best we can do is what many editors and admins have been suggesting to you... rely on multiple WP:RS by well respected, highly cited scholars who are one or two steps away from the numerous translations and interpretations of Suttas out there"
References
The OP's request to tag article(s), and reasons given are inappropriate for RSN. This discussion board is useful when editor(s) in dispute have a "specific source, cite details such as page number(s), article and disputed content", and want to know if the source is reliable for statement X in it? I suggest this case be closed without comment or prejudice.
If the case is accepted, I hope the RSN volunteers will identify which specific source they are talking about. FWIW, the mentioned articles do include Theravada Buddhist scholars (who Robert Walker calls sutra-tradition). @ Robert McClenon: I sense Robert Walker or I misunderstood you. In my reading, you are not saying that Four Noble Truths and other Buddhism articles do not include Theravada Buddhist POV and scholarship? You were just saying that the Buddhism articles should be presented from practicing Buddhists POV (Theravada, Mahayana, etc) found in reliable sources. Again fwiw, the articles do!, Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 12:17, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
"There seems to be be little progress towards a common consensus inspite of the extensive discussions. Participants are requested to take this for formal mediation or to WP:RSN."
Maybe I don't understand something, but I don't see what the purpose of this posting is. This noticeboard appears to be intended to resolve questions of whether a specific source is reliable, but this posting appears to be a long meta-discussion by Robert Walker about general questions about what types of sources should be used with regard to articles on Buddhist subjects such as the Four Noble Truths. I don't fully understand what the thrust is of the OP's wall of text anyway, but the length distracts rather than helps. Are there any specific issues about sources, or is this really a question about how to present articles on Buddhism? I apologize if I have added to the confusion by trying to understand what was being said. I was only trying to say that Wikipedia should focus on how scholars view Buddhism from the standpoint of practicing Buddhists, but maybe that didn't help. In any case, this doesn't appear to be a constructive use of this noticeboard, unless there is a specific source, whether non-Western Buddhist, Western Buddhist, or non-Buddhist Western, that is in question. Robert McClenon ( talk) 16:45, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Robert McClenon: I have thought of a simple way to show the change of POV of the new articles. I have colour coded each sentence in the lede violet if it is cited to a western academic source such as Anderson, black if it is cited to sources of both East and West or not cited, and red if it is cited to a sutra tradition scholar. This then sidesteps all those issues of "Prove that such and such a view is a view of sutra tradition Buddhism, or western academic Buddhism". The problem I face here is that none of you have knowledge of sutra tradition Buddhism, and why would you? If someone said "Christians don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus" then they would be laughed at. But imagine if you had to prove that from books, when also you are prevented from using books by Christian theologians on the grounds that they are Christians? And every cite you give, they find a way to re-interpret what you say, and say it is your own personal bias and not what Christians actually believe? What is happening here is as clear as that example, to any sutra tradition Buddhists but of course you can't be expected to know that.
Colour coding by the sources however is an easy way to show the change in POV. The new article uses almost exclusively western academic sources in the lede. The old version used both western academics and sutra tradition Buddhists in roughly equal measure in the lede. If I went further down the page to the main article, it would be more striking still. The old version would be nearly entirely red. The new version would be nearly entirely blue. I can do that if you feel it would be helpful to do so. Here it is as it is so far: Four Noble Truths Colour
Robert Walker (edited - I changed blue to violet because links are shown in blue) Robert Walker ( talk) 23:50, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
I think the gist of the question is contained in this paragraph of the OP:
One of the main issues in this discussion is that we have different ideas of what count as WP:RS in the Buddhism topic area. My view is that recognized and well regarded experts in Buddhist scholarship such as Walpola Rahula, Bhikkhu Bodhi, the Dalai Lama (who is a scholar with the highest academic qualifications available in Tibetan Buddhism), Bikkhu Sujato, Ringu Tulku, Thích Nhất Hạnh, Ajahn Sumedho, Geshe Tashi Tsering, Chogyam Trungpa, Pema Chodron etc would all count as WP:RS secondary sources in the Buddhism topic area.
The opposing parties apparently state that these authors are insiders of Buddhism and what they write constitute primary sources, whereas Wikipedia articles should be based on secondary sources. What is your view? -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 17:34, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
"Reverted 47 edits by ScientificQuest (talk): Reads like a personal analysis from a Theravada point of view. Please start using independent sources."
That's not what @ Joshua Jonathan: said to @ ScientificQuest: in the conversation as the reason for deleting his edits. He says [27]
"Regarding "religious knowledge": Wikipedia is not about religious knowledge, it's about verifiable information. Please do read WP:RS. If you think that "the words of the reputed scholar monk override those of the academic", then don't edit Wikipedia, but do start your own blog."
I am here to ask for clarification of this. It's not so much the particulars of this case. It's about the statements you make explaining your understanding of the wikipedia policies on WP:RS in the topic area of religion. I want clarification of the statements such as these that you and @ Joshua Jonathan: so often give as your stated reasons for your article editing policies as enforced by JJ by edit reverts. I do not believe that what he stated here accurately represents the guidelines on religious sources. It would be good to have clarification on this point, and perhaps have a summary of the conclusions posted to the Buddhism Project Robert Walker ( talk) 23:33, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Joshua Jonathan:, if you now accept that Bhikkhu Bodhi can be used as a secondary source for the Anatta article, and other articles in the Buddhism topic area, can you please say so clearly? And I suggest we post to the talk page there about it, saying that on due consideration you now say that he can be used there, on his own, not just as an additional source. Then we can drop it. I mention this because it is one of the clearest statements of your views on this matter, which you have never retracted, but rather repeated over and over in different ways.
SW, you need to read what @ Joshua Jonathan: said there in context. He had already said [28]
":PS: Bikkhu Bodhi is not an academic source; you can use him as an additional source, but academic sources are preferred. "
In that context it is totally clear that he meant that Bhikkhu Bodhi when he said
"If you think that "the words of the reputed scholar monk override those of the academic", then don't edit Wikipedia, but do start your own blog."
This is not in the guidelines to best of my knowledge, that you can only use the sources by well regarded experts on their faith as additional sources, and that you have to have academic sources are preferred. Indeed the guidelines seem to be the other way around, that when you are writing about the faith itself, its core ideas, the beliefs and practices of those who follow it, then the sources written by those in the faith itself are the best secondary sources. For instance in an article about Jesuit spirituality, you would use sources written by Jesuits as your secondary sources, not articles about Jesuits by Quakers (say), and vice versa. You might use sources written by Quakers in an article on Quaker views of Jesuits, but not as the main and most used sources in an article on Jesuit spirituality itself. That's my understanding, which I need clarified.
And - what you just said
""Does a reliable source written by reputed scholar monk override a reliable source written by the academic?" on some key point of view. The answer is no. Because they represent two sides, and both need to be summarized to the best of our abilities.
If you mean by this that every time a Bhikkhu scholar is cited, you have to have a citation by a western scholar on the same topic in the same section of the article, I do not believe this to be in the guidelines. The two SUBPOVs do have to be represented, but they can be in different sections, different articles, written by different authors. In particular an author contributing an article or section on say, Christian views of Resurrection of Jesus does not have to also be an author of articles or sections on Jewish, Muslim or secular authors. The reason @ ScientificQuest: gave up was because you required him to back up his cites to Bhikkhu Bodhi with cites to western academic authors. I do not believe this to be a requirement in the guidelines. Robert Walker ( talk) 04:13, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
So, yes, in general I do prefer academic sources; but I do not reject Buddhist sources a priori. It depends on context and subject. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
"But he does indeed have a specific Theravada point of view, which means that some of his interpretations may be coloured. That's why, and when, academic sources, are to be preferred: they have more distance to the subject."
"The proposal attempts to implement a reasonable understanding of the spirit of WP:RS as representing sources regarded as reliable and authoratative within a community and for presenting a specific viewpoint. The intent is to limit what is permissable to only religious opinion that is documentably authoratative and where such opinion is appropriate and properly attributed. It also attempts to avoid the overuse of WP:RS to make what sometimes seems to be a de facto end run around WP:NPOV, explicitly permitting references to religious experts on matters of their own religious expertise. "
Robert Walker ( talk) 10:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
Let's get back to the bottom-line: if you come with workable issues and proposals, then changes can be made to the article. extended content moved to User talk:Robertinventor#Workable proposals, in response to Ms Sarah Welch and in response to Alexbrn. If you come with concrete, small-scale examples, things can be worked-out quite fine. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:10, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
Dear volunteers. Sorry for the length of my original post, and the confusion leading to much discussion of rather tangential topics. The main thing I want to know is this. I've tried to clarify the situation for WP:RS in the Buddhism topic area in my Essay on Reliable Sources in Buddhism.
My aim was to clarify what counts as reliable sources in this topic area which has been a matter of controversy for the last several years, at least since 2014. This controversy has lead to editors leaving the project because the sources they want to use were not accepted as WP:RS by the other editors here. Have I summarized the guidelines correctly in those sections?
The sections are here:
Also I then apply those guidelines as I understood them to some examples of particular sources in the Buddhism topic area in the sections:
Between them these examples cover some of the main controversies we've had about what counts as a reliable source in this topic area. I would very much appreciate if you can cast your expert eye over these examples. Can these sources be used on their own as citations for articles in central topics for the Buddhist faith? Or can they only be used as "additional sources" so that cites from these authors have to be accompanied by cites from western academic sources saying the same thing - authors like Gombrich, Anderson, Bronkhorst etc? If this can be clarified it will be much appreciated, and will be very useful in future discussions of these articles and editing. Any questions, be sure to say. Thanks! Robert Walker ( talk) 04:17, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
Anyway the list goes on and on, I'd fill this page with citations if I gave them all.
Are these reliable sources for the Religion topic area for Buddhism? If you like to focus on a few examples from this long list, can I suggest:
Those are all examples of sutra tradition scholars that in the new articles would not be cited except as additional sources to back up the Western scholars who are regarded as more authoritative on the topic of what Buddhists believe, because their writings are not coloured by their faith, as @ Joshua Jonathan: explained above. I do not believe that the guidelines say this.
I'll do another example from the Anatta article. Robert Walker ( talk) 11:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
""In significant world religious denominations with organized academies or recognized theological experts in religious doctrine and scholarship, the proceedings of official religious bodies and the journals or publications of recognized and well-regarded religious academies and experts can be considered reliable sources for religious doctrine and views where such views represent significant viewpoints on an article subject. Ordination alone does not generally ensure religious expertise or reliability. Absent evidence of stature or a reputation for expertise in a leading, important religious denomination or community, the view of an individual minister or theologian is ordinarily not reliable for representing religious views."
"Secondary sources are not necessarily from recent years – or even centuries. The sacred or original text(s) of the religion will always be primary sources, but any other acceptable source may be a secondary source in some articles. For example, the works of Thomas Aquinas are secondary sources for a Roman Catholic perspective on many topics, but are primary sources for Thomas Aquinas or Summa Theologica."
@ Alexbrn:, sorry to have missed your comment. Perhaps you missed it? I am linking to policy. In particular, to Wikipedia:Reliable_source_examples#Religious_sources which is what I quoted from above. Or have I misunderstood? Is the page Wikipedia:Reliable source examples not policy? I thought it was. Robert Walker ( talk) 12:06, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
@ Joshua Jonathan: - this is the talk page discussion I was talking about Bold,revert,discuss - conclusions from the past days of discussion. Here is @ Andi 3ö:'s comment on your original removal of sections 1-8 of the article just before he tried this reinsertion of the material. [35]
"...So for me it seems quite obvious that an article about a Buddhist concept like karma should first and foremost report what the believers (of different traditions respectively) think about the concept, how it is taught and how it is incorporated into their practices. And by the way, the Buddhism article - right after the lead - continues with a traditional account of the life of the Buddha - not an historical (!)
Of course there should be room for historical critical analysis and comparative studies, which is what (western) academics seem to be mostly occupied whith. But if you think about what matters to the world, i.e. the reader? How does karma, i.e. the concept of karma, not the "real" thing, come into the world, leaving the ivory tower? It is through its workings in the minds of Buddhist believers. So it is our foremost duty to report what believers say, think, do - again: not (western) scholars!
" Of course, in order to report this accurately there are many ways and one of them - undoubtedly one that Wikipedia actively encourages - is to use academic secondary or tertiary sources (that report those beliefs). "
"To conclude: there is still a lot of work to be done; i will definitely not be engaged in some kind of edit war but i will definitely also not put up with the pity rest of the "detailed exposition of the workings of karma" that you left over from the previous version, precisely because these "workings of karma" take up a very important part in (contemporary) Buddhist's beliefs and practices (as proven by the very quotes you removed alone). BTW: Wouldn't "detailed exposition of the workings of karma" be a good title for a nicelittlelarge section where a lot of the missing stuff could find its way back in? ;) Kind regards, with metta, "
It's clear from the discussion that there was no consensus at all on your view that the former sections 1 to 8 should be removed, and so no justification for removing it again when he attempted to reinsert it. As for "quotefarm" - that was again just your own view and there may have been other editors who agreed with you. But most of us were saying that the quotes were carefully selected according to the guidelines on quotes with material before and after each quote discussing it, and there is no prohibition on using carefully selected quotes in an article. You weren't following any policy or guideline by removing all the sections with these quotes together with their citations and the material discussing those quotes.
This material which you removed had many cites to the most well regarded and notable of religious experts in the Buddhist faith. Robert Walker ( talk) 16:36, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
"Very important point! And applies to Joshuas edits to the karma article as well (see my first remarks in this same section and his answer to it)."
I find this policy guideline quite striking in that regard:
"Scholarship is, in every sense, fundamentally opposed to Wikipedia policy. The core of scholarship is original research, synthesis, and asserting that a scholar's vision of reality is in fact the correct one (some would call this bias). High quality scholarship relies on primary sources, and only engages the secondary literature in order to either acknowledge the sources of ideas or attempt to refute points made by others. Particularly in the humanities and social sciences, scholarship is little more than an extended argument."
The main question here therefore is, Thanissaro Bhikkhu a WP:RS for the views of Therevadan Bhikkhus on Anatta. Here Anatta, or "non self" is one of the most central topics in all branches of the Buddhist faith. This translator is undoubtedly a well regarded translator and author in the topic area of Therevadan Buddhism. See the wikipedia page about him. So is it correct that his work should not be used in the Anatta article except as additional material to back up material cited to Western academic sources? This is what @ Joshua Jonathan: gave as his reason for removing the material [38]:
":PS: Bikkhu Bodhi is not an academic source; you can use him as an additional source, but academic sources are preferred. "
He followed this up with [39]
"Regarding "religious knowledge": Wikipedia is not about religious knowledge, it's about verifiable information. Please do read WP:RS. If you think that "the words of the reputed scholar monk override those of the academic", then don't edit Wikipedia, but do start your own blog."
Full discussion here: Comments on Constructive Feedback and About Reliable Sources for Articles on Religion
This may seem old discussions. But @ Joshua Jonathan: has not changed his views, he continues to say the same things, even in the discussion here, also @ Ms Sarah Welch: as you can see above. So there is no reason to believe that if @ ScientificQuest: or anyone else were to try to insert content like this into existing articles or use them to write a SUBPOV article about Anatta as understood by Sutra tradition Buddhists - the content would undoubtedly be reverted / deleted by @ Joshua Jonathan:. Do please clarify. Thanks! Robert Walker ( talk) 11:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
@ First Light:, first, that's fine - I'm absolutely fine with ignoring the meta discussion above. I meant my original post to be focused on the WP:RS issue only and that was my reason for posting here, I was just verbose and didn't express the reasons well. Sorry about that. There is no need at all to comment on the meta discussion.
@ Alexbrn: - a bit of context. Theravadan Buddhism is the faith of an estimated 150 million adherents. See Buddhism by country. It is the majority religion of the countries of Cambodia, Thailand, and Sri Lanka. Thanissaro Bhikkhu, though he is Australian and writing in English is in a tradition from Thailand which has an estimated 93.2% of its population which follow variations on Therevadan Buddhism.
Each of these authors is of course speaking for his own faith, which may be a branch of the Therevadan tradition. So Thanissaro Bhikkhu for instance is speaking for the Thai Forest Tradition. One would expect an article on central topics of Buddhism to have sources from many different versions of the Buddhist faith, and that indeed is what the previous version of this article did. Nearly all the material in the current version is cited to Western academic sources.
It would be a matter of discussion on the talk page of which are the most representative authors for a particular branch of the Buddhist faith. Just as, for instance, one might have a discussion of which Jesuits are the most representative of Ignatian spirituality in their writings. But generally - I'd expect an article on Ignatian spirituality to be sourced to writings by Jesuits on this topic. So it's the same here, there are many Bhikkhu scholars in various branches of Therevadan Buddhism, and it would be important to label them clearly according to which branch of their faith they represent, especially in sections where those distinctions are important. Then, there are many other branches of the Buddhist faith also. This is indeed how the original Anatta article was presented before @ Joshua Jonathan:'s rewrite in July and August 2014. See [40] where different sections describe the understanding of Anatta according to various schools of Buddhism, citing sources within those schools to descriptions to the views on Anatta by those schools, and often with quotations from well regarded sources within those schools.
So I'm not asking about that, but whether they can be used as the main sources at all, because the material is often reverted on the basis that what they write is coloured by their own views on their own faith, and that we need to source them to authors who don't have their views on Therevadan Buddhism coloured by being themselves trained as Therevadan Buddhist scholars. If I understand you right, I think you are agreeing that it is okay to use the Therevadan scholars themselves as the main sources, though of course one may need to provide evidence that they are well regarded and notable, and need of course to explain if their faith differs in significant ways from other Therevadans.
On evidence of his notability as a translator, and to show that he is well regarded, Thanisarro Bhikkhu has many cites in google scholar, e.g. his "The middle length discourses of the Buddha" has 256 cites [41]. So, these cites were cites to introductions to sutras by a notable and highly cited translator of the sutras - which are the primary texts for Therevadans - and indeed shared with the other sutra schools too, which differ mainly by adding extra sutras to the core collection. The introduction to a text by a translator according to my understanding would count as a secondary source on that text. Robert Walker ( talk) 13:04, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
How many times are you going to come back to the Anatta-article? You have insinuated over and over again that my edits there were mal-practice; I have over and over again linked to my extensive explanations at the talkpage Talk:Anatta/Archive 3#Constructive comments, and ScientificQuest's response Talk:Anatta/Archive 3#Comments on Constructive Feedback:
"Hi Joshua, Chris, Victoria, and Robert. Please don't mind my personal note - since I made some bad personal remarks here earlier, I figure it is only right for me to write a personal apology. And again, instead of writing on your individual talk pages, I decided to own it up in public.
Joshua, thanks a lot for your very constructive feedback. I really appreciate this line-by-line feedback of exactly what went wrong in my post. It keeps it to facts, and states exactly what the problem is with the style. Coming from a background of writing for academic Journals, I can see my tendency to write original research - because arguably that's what academics do (unless perhaps they're editing Wikipedia pages)."
Could you please remember this response, and stop recycling the Anatta-article?
Robertinventor: you said, If I understand you right, I think you are agreeing that it is okay to use the Therevadan scholars themselves as the main sources". No, quite the opposite, I said that, "In that case, a religious leader could be quoted, but from a third-party source." That means a third-party neutral academic source that shows: notability of the person in the context of this article; notability of what is being said; the academic has neutrally analysed or chosen the statement as representative, rather than a WP editor cherry-picking quotes. First Light ( talk) 14:37, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
" But he does indeed have a specific Theravada point of view, which means that some of his interpretations may be coloured. That's why, and when, academic sources, are to be preferred: they have more distance to the subject."
Oh, I see. But these are scholars primarily. Even the Dalai Lama when he writes his books is writing as a Buddhist scholar, not as a teacher promulgating his own ideas and interpretations - he is presenting the views of Tibetan Buddhists generally as best he can and would not be expected to add anything new to this in terms of ideas of his own. Especially on core teachings such as the Four Noble Truths. Buddhism is much less lead by spiritual leaders than Hinduism, because of Buddha's teaching that we have to rely on the sutras and not take on any other teacher after he died. Other sources are not teachers at all - Walpola Rahula was just a scholar like any western academic scholar, but trained in a Buddhist tradition originally. Same also for Prayudh Payutto. And the problem is that these third party sources are not "neutral". They say themselves that their objective is to reinterpret the Buddhist teachings, not to present them as understood by those who have this faith themselves. Carol Anderson did write a book presenting the faith of Therevadan Buddhism, her "Basic Buddhism" and it said different things from her academic study "Pain and its Ending" which was a kind of deconstruction and reconstruction of Buddhism into a new structure of ideas. Most of the western commentaries are of that sort, and they say so themselves, and this is what @ Joshua Jonathan: is using as his principle sources for the articles. I hope this brief reply is in order - I've been taking a wikibreak and just logged in again. I'm going to voluntarily limit my number of posts in order to avoid verboseness. Thanks! Robert Walker ( talk) 13:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
First thanks for your help so far. I have an action against me in WP:ANI with a proposal to topic ban me from the Buddhism topic area for six months. One of the reasons for doing this is my verbosity in this discussion. As a result I think it is necessary to take a wikibreak. I hope you can understand and I appreciate your kind replies once I managed to formulate my question correctly. Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Specific_Unpleasant_Remedy.2C_Topic-Ban - Specific Unpleasant Remedy Topic Ban . Robert Walker ( talk) 22:34, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
There doesn't appear to be any specific procedure for closing a case at this noticeboard. However, it appears that this filing was well-meant but misguided because it didn't have to do with specific sources but with a meta-question about types of sources (Western non-Buddhist sources, Western Buddhist sources, Asian Buddhist sources). Robert McClenon ( talk) 03:05, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
MjolnirPants and I find ourselves at an impasse on the argument from authority page: can a scientific source, such as Carl Sagan or the Medical Press and Circular journal be taken as a reliable source on that page, or is the proper procedure to remove them since only philosophers may be cited for it? PraiseTheShroom ( talk) 03:55, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Those are not the sources I have in mind. I specifically mean mine from the Medical Press and Circular which was deleted, and that from Sagan. You sir are, frankly, running wild! PraiseTheShroom ( talk) 04:27, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
One phenomenon that is happening in the US is that previously-"vapid" sources like Buzzfeed, Teen Vogue, and Cosmopolitan have increasingly made their journalism serious:
For now I am not in an editing dispute involving any of these magazines, but it may be good to note possible changes in status and/or to distinguish between "vapid" and "serious" Buzzfeed articles (I'm sure somebody already posted to the noticeboard about the changes in Buzzfeed) WhisperToMe ( talk) 02:56, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
The site in question is [55] with all its dependant sites. These sites are being extensively used, and I have seen them to be referred as reliable sources. However, are they? They seem to be openly editable, and there seems to be no team large enough to ensure accuracy of all data here. Some of these entries were possibly stitched together with WP:OR, if this is true. I have two reasons for bringing this up here: If this source isn't reliable, then we have a lot of articles with information from an unreliable source, which is bad. I have seen at least one article only sourced via this site. Also, if I can be convinced this source is reliable, or reliable in a specific context, then I could use it myself on articles that seem to meet WP:N. Burning Pillar ( talk) 22:08, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello. I'm not sure this is the right place to ask this question, but I'm currently doing a project on Wikipedia and would love any input on the topic of blogs. Pretty much, I believe blogs should not have this negative stigma as an unreliable resource when it comes to citing them on Wikipedia. As a hip-hop fan, many of the places that cover the genre are blogs, and so I believe it is a bit unfair to the industry as well. Also, in terms of Wikipedia appealing to younger generations, I think it would be beneficial to allow more blogs as sources since many millennials read them and would be able to cite them in articles. What are your thoughts? Thanks! AdamtheGOAT ( talk) 21:17, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
Well let me address your question User:Jytdog.
I just used a blog (not by a recognized expert (by an undergraduate in fact), and not published under the aegis of a news organization) as a source. I did it and it felt good and I'd do it again. And here's why.
Here's the passage: "A plaque in the building commemorates its hosting of the 5th International Congress of Chambers of Commerce and of Commercial and Industrial Associations in 1912, attended by American President William Howard Taft and delegates from fifty-five countries". And here is the ref.
(Note that we're not saying that the 5th International Congress of Chambers of Commerce and of Commercial and Industrial Association was held at the place. There may never have been such an organization or event for all we know. We're just reporting that there's a plaque that says it.)
When looking at source, of course what I want is assurance that's its been gone over either in scientific peer review, or by an independent professional fact-checker. But a lot of times you can't get that. So then it's on to Plan B, and when I look at the source itself four of the things I think about are:
Regarding the person who reported this fact:
All of this could be an elaborate hoax. But it's not. The entire article (blog post) clearly shows the work of an earnest architecture student who sees details and knows a bit about what he's seeing. "I began to notice the detail within the masonry... One of the things that I noticed... I paid close attention to the ornaments..." and so forth. He then describes some of these details, and correctly I believe. Everything he says that I do have from other sources checks out as accurate. Everything about this articl, what he says and the way he says it, indicates that he is the kind of person who would care about getting details right, especially about a building that he is describing
So then, finally, "I noticed... a large metal plaque. The plaque talks about how in this space in 1912, the 5th International Congress of Chambers of Commerce and of Commercial and Industrial Associations was held for three days, with President William Howard Taft in attendance, along with delegates from fifty-five countries"
He's not quoting the exact text, so we don't have to worry if we're getting a quote exactly right. He's just reporting what's on the plaque. And as I say it doesn't make sense for him to describe the building in great detail, and then make up a plaque for no reason.
How confident can we be that all this is true? >99% (which of course is the highest assurance we can ever have for any source).
There is a city called Boston. There is a Flour and Grain Exchange Building there. And there is a plaque in it that says there was that 1912 confab was held there. And that blog post is all the evidence we need. Herostratus ( talk) 16:08, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
A different tangent - on technical topics blogs are sometimes very authoritative in my opinion, but they are open to the "oooo a blog" attack. For instance, what is more reliable, the blog of a named security researcher with a reputation in the topic, or a gee-whiz sidebar in The Caller? Don't laugh; I've lived that one. It's a fringe case but it happens. Also in high tech, reporters' blogs are often better than their published stories, as they have not been dumbed down for a mass audiemce. But as you were; I am just muddying the waters, saying that I've seen problems with this one too. I don't have an across-the-board change to propose though. I'm not watching this page so ping if you have a question. Elinruby ( talk) 08:09, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
I recently added what I thought was a well-cited, direct quote of a public-domain website of the National Institutes of Health, which was reverted as "blatant promotional content" by Jytdog. I wasn't aware that NIH was not a WP:MEDRS or even a WP:RS. I realize that I shouldn't have used the honorific per MOS. Is NIH text "blatant promotional content" when used describing an official's qualifications? Toddst1 ( talk) 02:48, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
I oftentimes see FamilySearch gets cited usually as a reference to BLPs' date of birth, genealogy, etc. Is FamilySearch WP:PRIMARY, or reliable even? Blue sphere 03:25, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
While I was working on the Modest Mouse discography page a couple months ago, I was researching for information on the music video for their song "Coyotes" and found that this article from Interstate-8, a Modest Mouse fansite, was referenced in articles by Consequence of Sound, Chicago Tribune, and Pitchfork, among others. Since the original Interstate-8 post has been treated as legitimate by several reliable sources, then does this make Interstate-8 as a whole a reliable source for other information related to Modest Mouse, or should the "Coyotes" thing be treated as an isolated exception to the rule? I ask because I have been trying to find sources to prove that "The World at Large" was released as a promotional single, but aside from the single's page on Interstate-8, the only sources I can find so far are Discogs and Rateyourmusic, neither of which are RS's from my understanding. -- Dylan620 ( I'm all ears) 03:29, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
Epodunk seems to be OK to use for population data because it relies on the U.S. Census Bureau. But how about using it for other information? For example, the epodunk entry for Walnut Grove, Minnesota asserts that "Charles Ingalls, was the community's first justice". There is no source on epodunk for that assertion. Where does epodunk get such random information and should it be considered reliable? 32.218.33.196 ( talk) 18:21, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
Off-topic discussion that does not address the question
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---|
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Ctrl+F
List of DC Multiverse worlds for the words retconned to have migrated from Earth-Two
.
It's possible that the actual source is a letters page (as I understand, those were still a thing in American comics in the 1980s) but I can't shake the feeling that one of the comics cited is an earlier book in which the characters were not from Earth-Two, and the other a later book in which they were. My OR senses are tingling. But I'm wondering whether, if the comic proper included, for example, an editor's note that described it as a retcon, it would still be inappropriate.
Thoughts?
Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 08:26, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
Hi, Apologies if this is in the wrong place,
On the
Chloe Khan article a sentence stated "She has one child, a daughter called Destiny, who was born in 2008, by her former boyfriend, Ian Hough.
[1]"
I had removed the childs name per
WP:BLPPRIVACY as well as per
WP:BLPPRIMARY as other than tabloids no one reported on the child and Chloe herself has never mentioned the childs name on any of her social medias,
So my question is Is Okay magazine fine as a
WP:reliable source and not actually classed as a tabloid ?,
One editor at
Talk:Chloe_Khan#Daily_Express.3F believed said source was fine so figured I'd ask here,
Thanks, –
Davey2010
Talk 21:08, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
References
I'm basing my opinion on being familiar with OK! magazine as an occasional reader. It was bought by the Express Group, but they own a wide variety of publications and I think OK! should be judged on its own merits, it is nothing like the National Enquirer. The article also features a clip from Khan's social media where she refers to her daughter as 'DesDes' and has the hashtag '#Chloe'sDestiny' so the subject is not hiding her daughter's existence or name. Boleyn ( talk) 05:07, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
I think it's disappointing that people are commenting on a publication's reliability without actually checking things out. So far, MjolnirPants, you have made one comment alleging that OK! is owned by the same people as the National Enquirer and assessed Radar Online as if it is OK! Magazine. You haven't struck this comment (as yet), although the information is totally wrong. Kendall-K1 commented, also making the same errors, and has clarified that it was an assumption, although this hasn't been struck through, so someone skim reading may not see the clarification. We have a responsibility to get this right. It seems ok.co.uk is difficult to access for American IPs for some reason -this is a technical issue and says nothing about its reliability. When I type it in (from Britain), it goes straight to the right page. OK! is owned by Northern & Shell, which publish a range of magazines, newspapers and owns TV channels. When Northern & Shell bought the Express Group, I didn't notice any changes to OK! Magazine, which from what I can see they had owned for 7 years already. I see no evidence it is a 'daughter publication' of any other publication. Can we please actually take the time to analyse this source, not make assumptions without looking at the source itself? I realise this is more difficult for people who have not actually seen the publication or read it. As I've said before, I wouldn't use it to confirm a fact about physics, but having actually read it many times, I would feel comfortable on its basic facts about the lives of well-known people. Boleyn ( talk) 10:15, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Would these sources count as reliable sources?
I am thinking on the article Kadurugoda Vihara, where these sources are used. Is it okey to use these sources in this article? Xenani ( talk) 17:34, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
I don't know either who they are. It is used in the article Kadurugoda Vihara, and I removed the sources because it seemed not reliable but it is constantly been added back by the same user over and over again. Thats why wanted to be sure if the sources are reliable or not. I have also noticed that similar sources are used by same user in other articles. Xenani ( talk) 18:06, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
Not trying to promote myself, only to be more familar with wikipedia standards. Anyway, are these sources correct to use or not? Xenani ( talk) 18:14, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
Oh I misunderstood, sorry. But shall I remove the references or shall I just leave it? I think I should remove the Amazinglanka references and also the name part because it is obviously original research. What do you think? Xenani ( talk) 18:30, 12 May 2017 (UTC) Did just see that you dealt with it. Xenani ( talk) 18:31, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
There's no indication of reliability within our meaning ( WP:RS), so no — it's presumptively unreliable. However, if the author/photographer wants to contribute his or her photographs, with the proper licensing, to Wikimedia Commons,then that would be most welcome. Neutrality talk 01:27, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Hi Slatersteven: I saw your comment that you had a smell of self promotion upon the usage of a website by a user over Wikipedia articles as references. Without clear indications those statements shouldn't be expressed. I keeps re-inserting the removed contents after a newly created User:Xenani account delete some of contents in few articles by citing about the citations ( As the user did here) www.srilankatravelnotes.com is a travel magazine that not gives much sense over the topic. Amazinglanka is also a locally vast website gives lot of information with valuable and rare photographs and not seemed to be maintained by one person. Photographs can be used as references and considered as highly reliable materials. These website links have been used as reference in number of articles in Wikipedia by various users. However these links were initially put as inline citation and after they were removed and list under the external link section. However User:Xenani had removed the whole name section reciting it is a original research ( As here). But these facts are confirmed by local refs and i didn't put them as most readers can not read them. However I was learnt that we can put local references in to the articles. And I also like to hear explanation how did you find out the some of references in this article as unreliable (according to WP:RS). It will help me to correct my future edits.-- L Manju ( talk) 03:11, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Hi L Manju . It is allowed to use sources that are not in English, although they should still be reliable and should also provide the quote supporting the content with a translation according to Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English_sources . It seems that the sites you have used are still not RS, also the sources the sites itself doesn't seem as RS. Who is "Rohan L. Jayetilleke" or the author of "Eelam the truth"? Are they any professional scholars? The website link you provided at point 2 doesn't work either. Also the new citation you added to the name section indicating the Kantharodai is a Tamilised word, particulary the source "Yapanaye Iethihasamaya Urumaya". It doesn't exist? I can't find anything about the source at all. Although I found another work from the author called "Yapanaye Aithihasika Urumaya", maybe this was the one you meant? Anyway according to WP:SOURCE, the source should be published or else it isn't reliable. Xenani ( talk) 15:02, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Hi L Manju. I am not sure but if you use a website like Amazinglanka, isn't it your responsibility to prove that this is an accurate website? I don't say that the content published by Rohan L. Jayetilleke is baseless, but how can I know that without knowing his position? Even I can write something without you knowing if that content is correct, but I am not a professional scholar and thus I don't except you to believe me and in the same way, how can I or others believe in what Rohan L. Jayetilleke has published? It is not about my personal opinion about this person, but according to WP:RS, "If available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources, such as in history, medicine, and science.". That is why I asked you if he was professional in his field or not. It wasn't me who used him as source, it was you. You used a website which didn't seem professional in the beginning, that is why I removed the references. You should have used the direct source instead of the website in the beginning. The reason why I was extra observant with name section is that Kantharodai has long been a place of Tamil settlement. When just a random claim about the name not being original Tamil, then it should be proved by a academic person who is professional in that field. The source used to prove this was just a random website, which didn't seem reliable. At least now you have used a better source, but still I am not sure if that is reliable, and that is the reason I mentioned it here, to ask if someone could prove if it was reliable or not. At least you could prove if the source is reliable since it is you who have used this as a source. Peace Xenani ( talk) 07:40, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
Since I edit lots of U.S. politics and current events pages I've been running into Mediaite a lot lately. It's one of those new-ish progressive websites that straddles the line between news and blogging, and I've been having trouble figuring out whether it's generally reliable or not. I'm leaning against.
This is not to say that Mediaite is a bad organization, just that I haven't seen much evidence of a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 17:47, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
I haven't managed to find any any evidence of it being cited by other, established, reliable sources.- I've seen them cited in the more mainstream press several times. A google search for "mediaite site:nytimes.com", for example, returns 220 hits, with 1900 on WaPo, and a handful at all the rest. That's a superficial measure, of course. As far as quality, well, it does have a political bent, and does pull a lot of its content from other sources that could be cited instead. I'd put it at about the level of Talking Points Memo or the main Huffington Post site, and certainly lower then e.g. Salon or On the Media (not a website, obviously, but similar subjects and a similar perspective but with a lot more rigor). $0.02. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 23:12, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 220 | ← | Archive 223 | Archive 224 | Archive 225 | Archive 226 | Archive 227 | → | Archive 230 |
The source Al-Masdar News is used extensively at the article Battle of Aleppo (2012–16), as well as many other Syria related articles. Now, this source has an obvious and very strong pro-Assad bias, as even those editors who want to use it admit. It's also a fairly new source which has become somewhat popular mostly due to the fact that it's stories get reposted by various alt-right outlets and conspiracy websites, such as Alex Jones' InfoWars. Indeed, they are the ones behind the #SyriaHoax conspiracy theory [1] [2]. They have been designated as a " fake news" website by some outlets [3], although not everything they publish is obvious "fake news".
So I'm pretty sure this source is NOT reliable, generally speaking. However, in the interest of compromise, I'm willing to see it used for non-controversial text such as troops strength or territorial control, especially since this kind of info can often be corroborated with other sources. Per WP:REDFLAG however, there's no way in freakin' heck that this source should be used for anything controversial, as some editors are attempting to, for example here (this has been removed and reinserted several times)
But it gets worse.
Recently it came out that one of the deputy editors of al-Masdar has been active on the neo-Nazi website Stormfront for years, where, in addition to using it to organize violent attacks on minorities and others, he disparaged ethnic groups using terms such as "sand niggers" (sic), "gooks" (sic) and "favela monkeys" (sic). [4] [5]. The CEO of al-Masdar has admitted that this is indeed the case and the guilty editor was suspended... with pay (basically they gave him a nice vacation hoping this would blow over). Another editor at al-Masdar however, tried to play it all down saying the statements on Stormfront were merely "controversial" (because you know, talking about how you like to "beat up sand niggers" is just "controversial")
I've brought this issue up at the talk page [6]. The response from one of the most tendentious supporters of al-Masdar was ... and I am NOT kidding here - that "if a NY Times editor was caught making the same offensive remarks at Stormfront, we wouldn't be dismissing NYT as a source altogether on Wikipedia".
That's right - that was the response. Apparently, it's okay to use a source which employs neo-Nazis, because if in some alternative bizarro world universe, the New York Times employed neo-Nazis, the alternative Wikipedia of that universe would still use the NY Times as a source. You can't make this stuff up. Personally I think a comment such as this is so a blatant statement of non-neutrality, bias, bad faith, WP:BATTLEGROUND and dishonesty, that it should lead to an immediate topic ban from an area, but never mind that for now. This is WP:RSN.
Now, there is a related RfC on the talk page at the article. However, this article has had a problem with sock puppets, meat puppets and tag teams (most likely coordinated off-wiki) for years. Hence it needs some fresh eyes and help from uninvolved editors. Which is why I'm bringing it up here. Also, I think it should be pretty obvious that a few obstinate editors cannot get together and declare a non-reliable source magically reliable in contravention of site-wide consensus as represented by WP:RS which I assume disallows the use of sources that have neo-Nazis writing for them, at least for any controversial info. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 05:13, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
The politics of the source are irrelevant when determining it's status as RS. What matters if do they have proper editorial control and check facts, not that they believes a certain ideology. Does the nominator have any evidence they make up facts? Slatersteven ( talk) 10:29, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
Calling a journalist a "neo-Nazi" because he's alleged to have made racist comments sounds like a BLP violation. It should be removed.
The NY Times publishes inaacurate information. When they do they publish corrections. The NY Times published plagarized articles. When discovered they asked the author to resign. We don't demand that sources never make mistakes but when discovered take action to correct them.
A journalist at al-Masdar is alleged to have made racist posts on a website. al-Masdar has suspended the journalist while they investigate. That is exactly what we expect from sources.
VM's most recent argument against al-Masdar ( he has campaigned for some time to eliminate it) is:
Two points:
The difficulty in this conflict is a lack of neutral, on-the-ground reporting. Ideally we look for particular claims to be confirmed by all. Failing that, we balance the bias of each with their others.
Note: I checked the contributions of the now-banned editor above. They seem to have specifically targetted VM's contributions for reversion. Almost equally concerning is the edits they reverted: VM's removal of al-Masdar in all (most) articles it was used, concluding on his own that it was unusable: Syrian Civil War (note the edit-summary), Aleppo, Ma'rib, Women's Protection Units, M1 Abrams, Russian involvement in the Syrian Civil War, Faisal al-Qassem, Criticism of Amnesty International, Human rights violations during the Syrian Civil War – there may be more.
I have posted a notice of this discussion to the talk page of Battle of Aleppo (2012–16), where most of the discussion re: al-Masdar has taken place. James J. Lambden 🇺🇸 ( talk) 18:44, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
First, in Syria, basically there are no reliable sources. We ether use pro-government Masdar or pro-opposition SOHR for the most part. The removal of one would lead to the removal of the other as well and it would disturb Wikipedia's balance of neutrality according to which we present both side's POV and not exclude one over the other, regardless what most think about that beligerent. Plus, it would cannibalize most of the content and sources of the Syria-related articles. Second, Masdar is a good source when it comes to territorial changes (advances/losses), when citing commanders and/or units or casualty figures. This can be seen in the fact that 80-90 percent of the territorial changes reported by Masdar are also reported by the pro-opposition SOHR. So in this case they are reliable. Third, there is no evidence Masdar was aware of the personal views of that one specific contributor, they suspended him the moment they were and Masdar itself didn't promote neo-Nazi views or expressed support for Nazis. Four, whether you or me think the Assad government is an extremist government is our personal POV which has no place when editing. Also, sidenote, Marek's unilateral removal of Masdar throughout multiple articles while a discussion on it is ongoing (with most leaning towards using Masdar via RfC) is not in good faith I think. Finally, most editors agreed through discussion (via RfC) that if Masdar's claims are properly attributed to pro-government Masdar there is no reason not to present those claims in contrast to the views of the pro-opposition SOHR or the US/UK/France who are anti-Assad in their views. Thus, I will conclude that I agree with both @ Slatersteven: and @ James J. Lambden:. EkoGraf ( talk) 18:59, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
( edit conflict) Stop trying to spin-doctor this, Khirurg, MyMoloboaccount, et. al. We are not talking about a huge WP:NEWSORG with thousands of employees and casual contributors: we're talking about a tiny organisation that we can't even find confirmation of where they're based for. Antonopoulos wasn't some small-fry who could be easily lost in the day-to-day machinations, he is a founding member and Deputy Editor from at least 2015 until a few days ago (see this archived capture all the way through to the latest capture here). All of the posturing aside, this means that al Madsar fails per WP:QUESTIONABLE, full stop. It is absolutely WP:NOTRELIABLE (and that is a policy, not a guideline). Talk about editorial oversight! -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 23:09, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
:::Sure, the guy's own damn twitter (google it). Enough for ya?
Volunteer Marek (
talk) 16:06, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
Please people, if you think a user should be banned report him. This is adding nothing to the debate. Slatersteven ( talk) 22:19, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
I think the best way to deal with this, since no better sources are available for this information, would be exercise good judgment and consistently provide attribution to the source. If something is an obvious puff piece about how Assad loves puppies, then it should be excluded, but other facts that might be appropriate can be added with attribution. Seraphim System ( talk) 03:24, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
I would like to make the following proposal and have a straw poll on to see where the community stands.
Support as nom. Khirurg ( talk) 04:47, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
Support per WP:USEBYOTHERS. Volunteer Marek does have a point about WP:RS, however. In particular, WP:RSBREAKING suggests "distrusting unconfirmed reports and those attributed to other news media". The two policies seem contradictory. But, RSBREAKING goes on to suggest that you "wait a day or two after the event. This gives time for investigative authorities to make official announcements". Once the Syrian government has authoritatively investigated and made an official announcement, you can add it, apparently. Ditto announcements by law-enforcement authorities in Moscow, Beijing, Ferguson, or elsewhere. -- Dervorguilla ( talk) 05:55, 2 May 2017 (UTC) 00:21, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Oppose In war both sides tell lies, we should not more assume that Al-Masdar is unreliable (or not) as any other involved party (and yes that includes the western media, we are involved). What we should do is attribute their claims to them. Slatersteven ( talk) 11:14, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
Support Although I agree with Slatersteven that all Masdar claims should be used, if properly attributed, for the sake of compromise I support Khirurg's proposal, which is basically the same one I proposed over at the Battle of Aleppo article's talk page and which got a two-thirds approval already a few days ago. I would just add that when its the only source for some tactical information (territorial changes) we add the wording reportedly. EkoGraf ( talk) 11:32, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
Support This proposal is pretty well thought out and I think it's a good compromise. As long as Al-Masdar's claims are taken seriously by multiple sources, I don't see why it shouldn't be included, even if it is meant to deny or reject their claims. I also do think that some (controversial) stand-alone claims by Al-Masdar should be included as well, provided that there's a large consensus for it. But this should be conducted in a case-by-case fashion. Wikipedia is in desperate need of sources that are on the ground that can present varying viewpoints of the conflict. Al-Masdar is the answer for that. Dismissing it would be a grave disservice to the project's readership. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 04:53, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
First and foremost, Al-Masdar has no neo-Nazi leanings. Paul is no longer affiliated with the company; I know this because I work there. The only founding member is Leith Abou Fadel. Zen Adra founded the Arabic version. Paul did not join Al-Masdar until late 2015. None of us knew about Paul's previous history on this neo-Nazi forum, so it came to shock to all of us.
Paul typically wrote op-eds which at times were controversial, so Leith asked him to move it to the opinion section. In general, Al-masdar just deals with breaking news. Op-eds and opinion pieces are not our thing.
While many accuse us of being funded by the Syrian and Iranian governments, we are privately funded and do not have any affiliation with any government.
If you guys want to smear the Al-Masdar page with attacks on its reliability, then we would appreciate the page being removed. It is unfair that the entire section on Al-Masdar is about how unreliable we are and quotes from other news agencies that don't agree with our reports.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Yusufalazma1925 ( talk • contribs) 19:40, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
How does SOHR differ?
Support This would not be my first choice but it's a reasonable and well thought out compromise. James J. Lambden 🇺🇸 ( talk) 17:32, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
Support per nommeans that I agree with almost every single word Khirurg (who made this proposal) said, and that I am under no obligation whatsoever to make additional explanations.
RSN rulesUser:Neutrality mentions here below? Sure, polling is no substitute for discussion, but neither is filibustering.
Let's just cut straight to the core issue. Does it have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy? That is he only question that matters. Just looking over its (relatively brief) history and the arguments people are making above, I think the answer is a definite no. In a quick Google search, the story mentioned at the top of this section seems to be the only in-depth reporting on Al-Masdar News. People have taken their eyes off the ball in arguing over those accusations - the point isn't whether we agree or disagree with what the Business Insider article says. The point is that that article - and a few other sources that touch on the same thing in the same tone - are definitely, absent something I haven't seen, the best source to go by for Al-Masdar's reputation; and that reputation is absolutely awful. Therefore, it's clearly a really bad source. The proposal above (and the !voting over it) strikes me as mostly silly - what's the point of saying that a bad source can be used only for uncontroversial claims? Technically the standard for uncontroversial stuff is low, but if a claim is uncontroversal, it should be easy to find it in a better source, and if it's in a better source, use the better source. Don't use terrible sources like this one. -- Aquillion ( talk) 10:10, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm posting here because we were requested to take our dispute here by @ Winged Blades of Godric: who closed our DRN with the recommendation [10]:
"There seems to be be little progress towards a common consensus in spite of the extensive discussions. Participants are requested to take this for formal mediation or to WP:RSN."
I don't see how formal mediation can work, as there is no sign of any consensus emerging or likely to emerge on this. But clarification on reliable sources perhaps could help.
First some background. The reason for the DRN is that I wished to tag Four Noble Truths, Anatta, Nirvana and Karma in Buddhism as POV. I tried adding a tag to one of these articles [11], but it was removed [12]. There was no consensus on the talk page to remove the tag. We have tried a DRN in order to resolve the dispute, but there is still no consensus about whether they can be tagged as POV.
One of the main issues in this discussion is that we have different ideas of what count as WP:RS in the Buddhism topic area. My view is that recognized and well regarded experts in Buddhist scholarship such as Walpola Rahula, Bhikkhu Bodhi, the Dalai Lama (who is a scholar with the highest academic qualifications available in Tibetan Buddhism), Bikkhu Sujato, Ringu Tulku, Thích Nhất Hạnh, Ajahn Sumedho, Geshe Tashi Tsering, Chogyam Trungpa, Pema Chodron etc would all count as WP:RS secondary sources in the Buddhism topic area.
@
Joshua Jonathan: and @
Ms Sarah Welch: often reverts edits which cite experts such as these on the basis that they are not backed up by Western academic sources
[13]. They say this is what is meant by the requirement for "secondary sources" because they are "two steps away"
[14]. See also the discussion summarized here
[15]. There articles, as a result, often have only a few sentences here and there based on these
WP:RS while most of the article will cover the views of these western academics and their many criticisms and reformulations of sutra tradition Buddhism.
If Buddhist scholars in all the Buddhist traditions are recognized as WP:RS that can be used in their own right, then the current articles are POV as they only present their views as coloured by the criticisms and reinterpretations of western academic Buddhists, and the balance is also greatly in favour of the views of the western academics. So, we need this clarified first, which I think is why @ Winged Blades of Godric: suggested this as our next stop rather than the NPOVN (edited after discussion with @ Ms Sarah Welch: below. Robert Walker ( talk) 14:35, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Robert McClenon: summarized my reasons well in his recent post to the DRN [16]:
"As noted, Christianity is presented primarily as it is seen by Christians. Jewish, Muslim, secular humanist, and Buddhist views of Christianity are discussed, but are not the primary way that Christianity is presented. Buddhism should be presented primarily in terms of what Buddhist scholars interpret as the teachings of Gautama Buddha, not what non-Buddhist Western scholars say about the teachings of the Buddha."
It is my understanding from the reliable sources guidelines that this is how WP:RS should be interpreted in this topic area. That it should be represented primarily in terms of what Buddhist scholars interpret as the teachings of Gautama Buddha, not what non Buddhist Western scholars say about the teachings of the Buddha. You can see @ Joshua Jonathan:'s view on the matter from his comment here [17]:
"The Four Noble Truths article already contains the line "While the Theravada-tradition holds the sutras to be the complete and accurate records of the teachings and sayings of the Buddha". This line was added by me, without a source; it can be referenced with and expanded on with your authors (though I would prefer a scholarly source, but alas; Prayudh Payutto seems to be as orthodox and indigenous as can be).
Prayudh Payutto is regarded as one of the most pre-eminent Buddhist scholars in Thailand with many honours. Buddhism has a long history of scholarship dating back to before we had universities in Europe. When @ Joshua Jonathan: says he is not a scholar, he just means, he hasn't got a PhD etc from a Western university. He is of the view that Bhikkhu scholars - i.e. scholar monks, and those who have been trained as scholars in this tradition in other countries, for instance in the Tibetan, Sri Lankan or Thailand traditions of Buddhist scholarship, are not reliable secondary sources in this topic area. He says that their work can be used only as interpreted by "non indigenous" western scholars. @ Joshua Jonathan:has made similar comments in the past numerous times. If I can summarize his views, if I understand them right, he claims that the article is NPOV because the SUBPOV of sutra tradition Buddhism has been demonstrated to be biased or mistaken by western academic Buddhist scholars, and this has to be explained in the article. @ Ms Sarah Welch: is of a similar view.
@ Dorje108: puts it like this:
"I think the mistake that both JJ and Sarah are making is that they continually insist "assert" that Rahula and other Buddhist scholars (or scholars who happen to be Buddhists) are “biased”, but that Western academic (who are not Buddhists) are “unbiased.” Therefore, by this logic, the Dalai Lama (for example) as a source should be regarded carefully (as biased), but a Western scholar is not biased. Therefore a presentation or POV by a Western scholar should be given more weight. What I think RW is suggesting (and I agree with this suggestion) is that where there are different points of view in presentation of a topic (whether among different Western academics, or between Western academics and Buddhist scholars), that both POVs should be presented. What I encountered repeatedly in my discussions with JJ (from years ago) and what I have observed in recent discussion, is that when encountered with different POVs, both Sarah and JJ insist that one POV is valid (not biased), and the other POV is not valid (biased). Another problem I observed was that JJ seemed to be trying to write a definitive article on the Four Noble Truths. In other words, he seems to be taking on the role of an academic himself, in deciding what is correct and what is not correct interpretation of Buddhist teachings. Apologies for the length of this post. I am sure everyone involved has the best intentions, and we all have our own personal biases. Also, this is a vast topic, so it is not easy to summarize. But in brief I agree with RW’s point that the current article is not written from a neutral POV (for reasons stated above). I hope this helps"
See Dorje108's comment and discussion
I should explain here, that the Dalai Lama, many westerners don't realize, is qualified academically with the highest qualification available in Tibetan scholarship, the Geshe Lharampa degree [18] which requires 15 years study so is more demanding than a Western PhD. Few westerners have passed this qualification. He also, unusually, is thoroughly versed in all four of the schools of Tibetan Buddhism, and is the author of numerous books on Buddhism. So he is a WP:RS here because of his academic status, as a Buddhist scholar, not because he is a Dalai Lama. Previous Dalai Lamas have sometimes not been academic at all, but the present day one is unusually academically gifted and was recognized as such by Tibetan Buddhist scholars from a young age.
This is a debate that's been going on in the article talk pages since 2014 when @ Joshua Jonathan: did non consensus major rewrites of the articles against the objections of other editors of the articles. He did these rewrites to present the topic from the SUBPOV of academic Buddhism. The previous versions were in a stable state and represented the SUBPOV of sutra tradition Buddhism. @ Joshua Jonathan: and others keep previously active editors and new sutra tradition editors out of this topic area by reverting their edits whenever they attempt to insert material on their SUBPOV into the articles. He does this on the basis that (in his view) the sources they wish to use are not secondary WP:RS. See DRN Evidence.
Robert Walker ( talk) 07:49, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
Sutra tradition Buddhists number in hundreds of millions. These countries all have a majority of Buddhists of these faiths, either Theravada or Mahayana or Vajrayana but all rely on the same core sutras of the Pali Canon which is around the size of an encyclopedia.
(from Buddhism by country)
So, sutra tradition Buddhism in its various manifestations is a major world faith according to the guidelines on religous sources. It's hard to get a figure for the numbers who have the views of western academic Buddhists but they surely can't be in their millions. So why should the articles on Buddhism in wikipedia mainly represent the views of the western academic Buddhists as their POV and only touch on the views of sutra tradition Buddhists in a few sentences here and there, mainly to criticize them? Robert Walker ( talk) 07:49, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
My suggestion is for the main articles to represent the views of sutra tradition Buddhists. I agree that the views of academic western Buddhists are detailed and complex enough to require entire articles, but if this is the case, as I believe @ Joshua Jonathan: has demonstrated with his rewrites of these articles - I think the readers will be better served by separating these out into separate articles for western academic WP:SUBPOVs, not to try to merge them into one. Indeed I think this would lead to greater clarity about the views of western academics as well as about the views of sutra tradition Buddhists.
Incidentally, for clarity, by the "western academic SUBPOV" I mean the POV of many western academics according to which when Buddha became enlightened as a young man, what happened is that he had an understanding that he would be free of suffering when he died by not taking rebirth again, a view that they elaborate in much intricate detail, and based on questioning the authenticity of the Pali Canon and attempting to unearth the original teachings of the Buddha. There are many variations on this idea explained in the current articles. @ Joshua Jonathan: summarizes the view of one of the authors with this POV, at the end of his "Therevadha" section [19] as
"According to Ambedkar, total cessation of suffering is an illusion; yet, the Buddhist Middle Path aims at the reduction of suffering and the maximalisation of happiness, balancing both sorrow and happiness"
By the sutra tradition SUBPOV I mean the view according to which Buddha when he became enlightened realized cessation not just of suffering but all forms of unsatisfactoriness already right there on the spot. Though he became old, got sick, and died, none of these were "dukkha" or unsatisfactory for him. Those who hold this view consider the sutras to be the authentic teachings of the Buddha and don't think there is any need to try to work out what Buddha originally taught or thought on matters such as the Four Noble Truths, Anatta etc as we already know this from the sutras. Many Buddhists have this view not just through faith but also through reasoning based on internal and external evidence, as explained here: Pali Canon#Authorship according to Theravadins. This view is shared by some Western scholars, who would then fall into the SUBPOV of sutra tradition Buddhism on this matter. Walpola Rahula was a famous example of an author trained in both western scholarship (PhD from a western university and professor at a western university for many years) and Buddhist tradition scholarship who held the views of the sutra tradition Buddhists.
For instance Walpola Rahula writes (in his famous book "What the Buddha Taught" on the essential teachings of Therevadhan Buddhism):
"In almost all religions the summum bonum can be attained only after death. But Nirvana can be realized in this very life; it is not necessary to wait till you die to 'attain' it."
Failing agreement to have separate articles, which we don't have currently, I wish to add POV tags to all four articles and since sutra tradition Buddhists will not be able to edit the articles to represent their views, and have not been able to do so since 2014, then the next step seems to be to invite discussion about whether the articles are POV as suggested in WP:NPOVD. So, it seems our next stop is the NPOV noticeboard, if it is agreed that Prayudh Payutto, Bhikkhu Bodhi, the Dalia Lama etc are indeed WP:RS for the SUBPOV of sutra tradition Buddhism.
Both SUBPOVs agree that when Buddha became enlightened he said that this is his last rebirth. They disagree however on whether he realized cessation of dukkha as a young man of 30, or whether he only had an end to dukkha when he entered paranirvana when he died. This difference in SUBPOV has many ramifications and is one of many differences in view that they have.
Robert Walker ( talk) 07:49, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
I've summarized the situation for reliable sources in sutra Buddhism in my essay here: Essay on Reliable Sources in Buddhism and a Proposal. I invite comments on this essay, and for confirmation that I have understood the guidelines on WP:RS properly or indeed, of course correction, if @ Joshua Jonathan: is the one who has a correct understanding of the guidelines here. I also welcome any suggestions about where to take this next, is the NPOVN the natural next place to go, or are there other alternatives? Robert Walker ( talk) 07:32, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
I don't object to using Buddhist sources; Prayudh Payutto, for example, is fine; he seems to be quite representative of a truly orthodox line of thought in Theravada, so, that's good (and I agreed with using him). Note that there are good Buddhist sources, and also academic scholarly sources by Buddhists; note also that the articles in questions refer to both Buddhist and academic scholarly sources.
What I object to is basing an article solely on a personal (mis)understanding of Buddhism, based on a selective range of popular sources aimed at a large, uninformed audience; writing articles that contain large amounts of WP:OR and WP:SYNTHESIS, and misrepresent even those those pop-sources; and violating WP:NPOV, by relying solely on those pop-sources. Robert's prefered "previous versions" were not in a stable state, nor did they represent the point of view of "sutra tradition Buddhism" (what does that neologism refer to?) in an adequate way.
Regarding Robert's explanation (thanks, Robert) "By the sutra tradition SUBPOV I mean the view according to which Buddha when he became enlightened realized cessation not just of suffering but all forms of unsatisfactoriness already right there on the spot.", let me quote from that DRN:
"Robert thinks that the release of dukkha is the sole goal of the Buddhist path, and that the end of rebirth is not a/the goal. He thinks that "ending rebirth" is a western scholarly re-interpretation, despite more than a dozen references + quotes ( section "ending rebirth, note "Moksha", note "samudaya", note "Samsara", note "Nirodha"), from both scholarly sources and Buddhist sources, which say that the Buddhist "goal" implies both. To compare:
* Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta [20]: "But as soon as this [...] knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths [...] was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening [...] Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'"
* Bhikkhu Bodhi (2011), The Noble Eightfold Path: Way to the End of Suffering, p.10: "[the] elimination of craving culminates not only in the extinction of sorrow, anguish and distress, but in the unconditioned freedom of nibbana, which is won with the ending of reapeated rebirth." [5]
* Keown (2009), Buddhism, p.65: "The ultimate goal of Buddhism is to put an end to suffering and rebirth."
Robert is persistent on this personal pov of him; his proposal for a pov-fork is to split off all the scholarly statements and info into a separate article, and revert the main article back to his preferred version. That's not an option."
To add: this is what the Four Noble Truths article says:
* "But there is a way to end this cycle and reach real happiness,[18][note 5] namely by letting go of this craving and attaining nirvana, whereafter rebirth and dissatisfaction will no longer arise again.[note 6][19]"
* "The truth of nirodha, the cessation of dukkha, is the truth that dukkha ceases, or can be confined,[38] when craving and clinging cease or are confined, and nirvana is attained.[19] Nirvana refers to the moment of attainment itself, and the resulting peace of mind and happiness (khlesa-nirvana), but also to the final dissolution of the five skandhas at the time of death (skandha-nirvana or parinirvana); in the Theravada-tradition, it also refers to a transcendental reality which is "known at the moment of awakening."[74][75][76][77] According to Gethin, "modern Buddhist usage tends to restrict 'nirvāṇa' to the awakening experience and reserve 'parinirvāṇa' for the death experience.[78] When nirvana is attained, no more karma is being produced, and rebirth and dissatisfaction will no longer arise again.[note 6] Cessation is nirvana, "blowing out," and peace of mind.[80][81][82] Joseph Goldstein explains:
Ajahn Buddhadasa, a well-known Thai master of the last century, said that when village people in India were cooking rice and waiting for it to cool, they might remark, "Wait a little for the rice to become nibbana". So here, nibbana means the cool state of mind, free from the fires of the defilements. As Ajahn Buddhadasa remarked, "The cooler the mind, the more Nibbana in that moment". We can notice for ourselves relative states of coolness in our own minds as we go through the day.[82]"
* "Within the Theravada-tradition, three different stances on nirvana and the question what happens with the Arhat after death can be found.[74][75][76][77] Nirvana refers to the cessation of the defilements and the resulting peace of mind and happiness (khlesa-nirvana); to the final dissolution of the five skandhas at the time of death (skandha-nirvana or parinirvana); and to a transcendental reality which is "known at the moment of awakening."[74][note 43] According to Gethin, "modern Buddhist usage tends to restrict 'nirvāṇa' to the awakening experience and reserve 'parinirvāṇa' for the death experience.[78] According to Geisler and Amano, in the "minimal Theravada interpretation", nirvana is a psychological state, which ends with the dissolution of the body and the total extinction of existence.[75][77] According to Geisler and Amano, the "orthodox Theravada interpretation" is that nirvana is a transcendent reality, with which the self unites.[77] According to Bronkhorst, while "Buddhism preached liberation in this life, i.e. before death,"[171] there was also a tendency in Buddhism to think of liberation happening after death. According to Bronkhorst, this
...becomes visible in those canonical passages which distinguish between Nirvana - qualified in Sanskrit and pali as 'without a remainder of upadhi/upadi (anupadhisesa/anupadisesa) - and the 'highest and complete enlightenment'(anuttara samyaksambodhi/sammasambodhi). The former occurs at death, the later in life.[172]
According to Walpola Rahula, Buddhism "shows you the way to perfect freedom, peace, tranquility and happiness,"[web 26] which is nirvana.[web 24] According to Walpola Rahula, the cessation of dukkha is nirvana, the summum bonum of Buddhism, and is attained in this life, not when one dies.[web 24] According to Walpola Rahula, nirvana is "Absolute Truth," which simply is,[web 24][note 44] while Jayatilleke also speaks of "the attainment of an ultimate reality."[174] According to Bhikkhu Bodhi, the "elimination of craving culminates not only in the extinction of sorrow, anguish and distress, but in the unconditioned freedom of nibbana, which is won with the ending of reapeated rebirth."[177]"
So, the article uses both Buddhist and academic sources; it represents Robert's supposed "sutra tradition point of view"; in addition, it makes clear that nirvana has multiple meanings in Buddhism, not just what Robert thinks is "sutra tradition"; and it makes clear that nirvana as cessation and peace is reached here in this life, and that it implies that there will be no more rebirth. That's not an academic reintepretation, that's what Buddhism says. See also what Bhikkhu Bodhi on rebirth and Thanissaro Bhikkhu on rebirth, real Buddhist bhikkhus, quotes in the Wiki-article, have to say about the western idea that rebirth is not part of the Buddhist package.
References
NB: still walls of text...
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 08:07, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
"The best we can do is what many editors and admins have been suggesting to you... rely on multiple WP:RS by well respected, highly cited scholars who are one or two steps away from the numerous translations and interpretations of Suttas out there"
References
The OP's request to tag article(s), and reasons given are inappropriate for RSN. This discussion board is useful when editor(s) in dispute have a "specific source, cite details such as page number(s), article and disputed content", and want to know if the source is reliable for statement X in it? I suggest this case be closed without comment or prejudice.
If the case is accepted, I hope the RSN volunteers will identify which specific source they are talking about. FWIW, the mentioned articles do include Theravada Buddhist scholars (who Robert Walker calls sutra-tradition). @ Robert McClenon: I sense Robert Walker or I misunderstood you. In my reading, you are not saying that Four Noble Truths and other Buddhism articles do not include Theravada Buddhist POV and scholarship? You were just saying that the Buddhism articles should be presented from practicing Buddhists POV (Theravada, Mahayana, etc) found in reliable sources. Again fwiw, the articles do!, Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 12:17, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
"There seems to be be little progress towards a common consensus inspite of the extensive discussions. Participants are requested to take this for formal mediation or to WP:RSN."
Maybe I don't understand something, but I don't see what the purpose of this posting is. This noticeboard appears to be intended to resolve questions of whether a specific source is reliable, but this posting appears to be a long meta-discussion by Robert Walker about general questions about what types of sources should be used with regard to articles on Buddhist subjects such as the Four Noble Truths. I don't fully understand what the thrust is of the OP's wall of text anyway, but the length distracts rather than helps. Are there any specific issues about sources, or is this really a question about how to present articles on Buddhism? I apologize if I have added to the confusion by trying to understand what was being said. I was only trying to say that Wikipedia should focus on how scholars view Buddhism from the standpoint of practicing Buddhists, but maybe that didn't help. In any case, this doesn't appear to be a constructive use of this noticeboard, unless there is a specific source, whether non-Western Buddhist, Western Buddhist, or non-Buddhist Western, that is in question. Robert McClenon ( talk) 16:45, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Robert McClenon: I have thought of a simple way to show the change of POV of the new articles. I have colour coded each sentence in the lede violet if it is cited to a western academic source such as Anderson, black if it is cited to sources of both East and West or not cited, and red if it is cited to a sutra tradition scholar. This then sidesteps all those issues of "Prove that such and such a view is a view of sutra tradition Buddhism, or western academic Buddhism". The problem I face here is that none of you have knowledge of sutra tradition Buddhism, and why would you? If someone said "Christians don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus" then they would be laughed at. But imagine if you had to prove that from books, when also you are prevented from using books by Christian theologians on the grounds that they are Christians? And every cite you give, they find a way to re-interpret what you say, and say it is your own personal bias and not what Christians actually believe? What is happening here is as clear as that example, to any sutra tradition Buddhists but of course you can't be expected to know that.
Colour coding by the sources however is an easy way to show the change in POV. The new article uses almost exclusively western academic sources in the lede. The old version used both western academics and sutra tradition Buddhists in roughly equal measure in the lede. If I went further down the page to the main article, it would be more striking still. The old version would be nearly entirely red. The new version would be nearly entirely blue. I can do that if you feel it would be helpful to do so. Here it is as it is so far: Four Noble Truths Colour
Robert Walker (edited - I changed blue to violet because links are shown in blue) Robert Walker ( talk) 23:50, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
I think the gist of the question is contained in this paragraph of the OP:
One of the main issues in this discussion is that we have different ideas of what count as WP:RS in the Buddhism topic area. My view is that recognized and well regarded experts in Buddhist scholarship such as Walpola Rahula, Bhikkhu Bodhi, the Dalai Lama (who is a scholar with the highest academic qualifications available in Tibetan Buddhism), Bikkhu Sujato, Ringu Tulku, Thích Nhất Hạnh, Ajahn Sumedho, Geshe Tashi Tsering, Chogyam Trungpa, Pema Chodron etc would all count as WP:RS secondary sources in the Buddhism topic area.
The opposing parties apparently state that these authors are insiders of Buddhism and what they write constitute primary sources, whereas Wikipedia articles should be based on secondary sources. What is your view? -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 17:34, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
"Reverted 47 edits by ScientificQuest (talk): Reads like a personal analysis from a Theravada point of view. Please start using independent sources."
That's not what @ Joshua Jonathan: said to @ ScientificQuest: in the conversation as the reason for deleting his edits. He says [27]
"Regarding "religious knowledge": Wikipedia is not about religious knowledge, it's about verifiable information. Please do read WP:RS. If you think that "the words of the reputed scholar monk override those of the academic", then don't edit Wikipedia, but do start your own blog."
I am here to ask for clarification of this. It's not so much the particulars of this case. It's about the statements you make explaining your understanding of the wikipedia policies on WP:RS in the topic area of religion. I want clarification of the statements such as these that you and @ Joshua Jonathan: so often give as your stated reasons for your article editing policies as enforced by JJ by edit reverts. I do not believe that what he stated here accurately represents the guidelines on religious sources. It would be good to have clarification on this point, and perhaps have a summary of the conclusions posted to the Buddhism Project Robert Walker ( talk) 23:33, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Joshua Jonathan:, if you now accept that Bhikkhu Bodhi can be used as a secondary source for the Anatta article, and other articles in the Buddhism topic area, can you please say so clearly? And I suggest we post to the talk page there about it, saying that on due consideration you now say that he can be used there, on his own, not just as an additional source. Then we can drop it. I mention this because it is one of the clearest statements of your views on this matter, which you have never retracted, but rather repeated over and over in different ways.
SW, you need to read what @ Joshua Jonathan: said there in context. He had already said [28]
":PS: Bikkhu Bodhi is not an academic source; you can use him as an additional source, but academic sources are preferred. "
In that context it is totally clear that he meant that Bhikkhu Bodhi when he said
"If you think that "the words of the reputed scholar monk override those of the academic", then don't edit Wikipedia, but do start your own blog."
This is not in the guidelines to best of my knowledge, that you can only use the sources by well regarded experts on their faith as additional sources, and that you have to have academic sources are preferred. Indeed the guidelines seem to be the other way around, that when you are writing about the faith itself, its core ideas, the beliefs and practices of those who follow it, then the sources written by those in the faith itself are the best secondary sources. For instance in an article about Jesuit spirituality, you would use sources written by Jesuits as your secondary sources, not articles about Jesuits by Quakers (say), and vice versa. You might use sources written by Quakers in an article on Quaker views of Jesuits, but not as the main and most used sources in an article on Jesuit spirituality itself. That's my understanding, which I need clarified.
And - what you just said
""Does a reliable source written by reputed scholar monk override a reliable source written by the academic?" on some key point of view. The answer is no. Because they represent two sides, and both need to be summarized to the best of our abilities.
If you mean by this that every time a Bhikkhu scholar is cited, you have to have a citation by a western scholar on the same topic in the same section of the article, I do not believe this to be in the guidelines. The two SUBPOVs do have to be represented, but they can be in different sections, different articles, written by different authors. In particular an author contributing an article or section on say, Christian views of Resurrection of Jesus does not have to also be an author of articles or sections on Jewish, Muslim or secular authors. The reason @ ScientificQuest: gave up was because you required him to back up his cites to Bhikkhu Bodhi with cites to western academic authors. I do not believe this to be a requirement in the guidelines. Robert Walker ( talk) 04:13, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
So, yes, in general I do prefer academic sources; but I do not reject Buddhist sources a priori. It depends on context and subject. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
"But he does indeed have a specific Theravada point of view, which means that some of his interpretations may be coloured. That's why, and when, academic sources, are to be preferred: they have more distance to the subject."
"The proposal attempts to implement a reasonable understanding of the spirit of WP:RS as representing sources regarded as reliable and authoratative within a community and for presenting a specific viewpoint. The intent is to limit what is permissable to only religious opinion that is documentably authoratative and where such opinion is appropriate and properly attributed. It also attempts to avoid the overuse of WP:RS to make what sometimes seems to be a de facto end run around WP:NPOV, explicitly permitting references to religious experts on matters of their own religious expertise. "
Robert Walker ( talk) 10:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
Let's get back to the bottom-line: if you come with workable issues and proposals, then changes can be made to the article. extended content moved to User talk:Robertinventor#Workable proposals, in response to Ms Sarah Welch and in response to Alexbrn. If you come with concrete, small-scale examples, things can be worked-out quite fine. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:10, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
Dear volunteers. Sorry for the length of my original post, and the confusion leading to much discussion of rather tangential topics. The main thing I want to know is this. I've tried to clarify the situation for WP:RS in the Buddhism topic area in my Essay on Reliable Sources in Buddhism.
My aim was to clarify what counts as reliable sources in this topic area which has been a matter of controversy for the last several years, at least since 2014. This controversy has lead to editors leaving the project because the sources they want to use were not accepted as WP:RS by the other editors here. Have I summarized the guidelines correctly in those sections?
The sections are here:
Also I then apply those guidelines as I understood them to some examples of particular sources in the Buddhism topic area in the sections:
Between them these examples cover some of the main controversies we've had about what counts as a reliable source in this topic area. I would very much appreciate if you can cast your expert eye over these examples. Can these sources be used on their own as citations for articles in central topics for the Buddhist faith? Or can they only be used as "additional sources" so that cites from these authors have to be accompanied by cites from western academic sources saying the same thing - authors like Gombrich, Anderson, Bronkhorst etc? If this can be clarified it will be much appreciated, and will be very useful in future discussions of these articles and editing. Any questions, be sure to say. Thanks! Robert Walker ( talk) 04:17, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
Anyway the list goes on and on, I'd fill this page with citations if I gave them all.
Are these reliable sources for the Religion topic area for Buddhism? If you like to focus on a few examples from this long list, can I suggest:
Those are all examples of sutra tradition scholars that in the new articles would not be cited except as additional sources to back up the Western scholars who are regarded as more authoritative on the topic of what Buddhists believe, because their writings are not coloured by their faith, as @ Joshua Jonathan: explained above. I do not believe that the guidelines say this.
I'll do another example from the Anatta article. Robert Walker ( talk) 11:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
""In significant world religious denominations with organized academies or recognized theological experts in religious doctrine and scholarship, the proceedings of official religious bodies and the journals or publications of recognized and well-regarded religious academies and experts can be considered reliable sources for religious doctrine and views where such views represent significant viewpoints on an article subject. Ordination alone does not generally ensure religious expertise or reliability. Absent evidence of stature or a reputation for expertise in a leading, important religious denomination or community, the view of an individual minister or theologian is ordinarily not reliable for representing religious views."
"Secondary sources are not necessarily from recent years – or even centuries. The sacred or original text(s) of the religion will always be primary sources, but any other acceptable source may be a secondary source in some articles. For example, the works of Thomas Aquinas are secondary sources for a Roman Catholic perspective on many topics, but are primary sources for Thomas Aquinas or Summa Theologica."
@ Alexbrn:, sorry to have missed your comment. Perhaps you missed it? I am linking to policy. In particular, to Wikipedia:Reliable_source_examples#Religious_sources which is what I quoted from above. Or have I misunderstood? Is the page Wikipedia:Reliable source examples not policy? I thought it was. Robert Walker ( talk) 12:06, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
@ Joshua Jonathan: - this is the talk page discussion I was talking about Bold,revert,discuss - conclusions from the past days of discussion. Here is @ Andi 3ö:'s comment on your original removal of sections 1-8 of the article just before he tried this reinsertion of the material. [35]
"...So for me it seems quite obvious that an article about a Buddhist concept like karma should first and foremost report what the believers (of different traditions respectively) think about the concept, how it is taught and how it is incorporated into their practices. And by the way, the Buddhism article - right after the lead - continues with a traditional account of the life of the Buddha - not an historical (!)
Of course there should be room for historical critical analysis and comparative studies, which is what (western) academics seem to be mostly occupied whith. But if you think about what matters to the world, i.e. the reader? How does karma, i.e. the concept of karma, not the "real" thing, come into the world, leaving the ivory tower? It is through its workings in the minds of Buddhist believers. So it is our foremost duty to report what believers say, think, do - again: not (western) scholars!
" Of course, in order to report this accurately there are many ways and one of them - undoubtedly one that Wikipedia actively encourages - is to use academic secondary or tertiary sources (that report those beliefs). "
"To conclude: there is still a lot of work to be done; i will definitely not be engaged in some kind of edit war but i will definitely also not put up with the pity rest of the "detailed exposition of the workings of karma" that you left over from the previous version, precisely because these "workings of karma" take up a very important part in (contemporary) Buddhist's beliefs and practices (as proven by the very quotes you removed alone). BTW: Wouldn't "detailed exposition of the workings of karma" be a good title for a nicelittlelarge section where a lot of the missing stuff could find its way back in? ;) Kind regards, with metta, "
It's clear from the discussion that there was no consensus at all on your view that the former sections 1 to 8 should be removed, and so no justification for removing it again when he attempted to reinsert it. As for "quotefarm" - that was again just your own view and there may have been other editors who agreed with you. But most of us were saying that the quotes were carefully selected according to the guidelines on quotes with material before and after each quote discussing it, and there is no prohibition on using carefully selected quotes in an article. You weren't following any policy or guideline by removing all the sections with these quotes together with their citations and the material discussing those quotes.
This material which you removed had many cites to the most well regarded and notable of religious experts in the Buddhist faith. Robert Walker ( talk) 16:36, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
"Very important point! And applies to Joshuas edits to the karma article as well (see my first remarks in this same section and his answer to it)."
I find this policy guideline quite striking in that regard:
"Scholarship is, in every sense, fundamentally opposed to Wikipedia policy. The core of scholarship is original research, synthesis, and asserting that a scholar's vision of reality is in fact the correct one (some would call this bias). High quality scholarship relies on primary sources, and only engages the secondary literature in order to either acknowledge the sources of ideas or attempt to refute points made by others. Particularly in the humanities and social sciences, scholarship is little more than an extended argument."
The main question here therefore is, Thanissaro Bhikkhu a WP:RS for the views of Therevadan Bhikkhus on Anatta. Here Anatta, or "non self" is one of the most central topics in all branches of the Buddhist faith. This translator is undoubtedly a well regarded translator and author in the topic area of Therevadan Buddhism. See the wikipedia page about him. So is it correct that his work should not be used in the Anatta article except as additional material to back up material cited to Western academic sources? This is what @ Joshua Jonathan: gave as his reason for removing the material [38]:
":PS: Bikkhu Bodhi is not an academic source; you can use him as an additional source, but academic sources are preferred. "
He followed this up with [39]
"Regarding "religious knowledge": Wikipedia is not about religious knowledge, it's about verifiable information. Please do read WP:RS. If you think that "the words of the reputed scholar monk override those of the academic", then don't edit Wikipedia, but do start your own blog."
Full discussion here: Comments on Constructive Feedback and About Reliable Sources for Articles on Religion
This may seem old discussions. But @ Joshua Jonathan: has not changed his views, he continues to say the same things, even in the discussion here, also @ Ms Sarah Welch: as you can see above. So there is no reason to believe that if @ ScientificQuest: or anyone else were to try to insert content like this into existing articles or use them to write a SUBPOV article about Anatta as understood by Sutra tradition Buddhists - the content would undoubtedly be reverted / deleted by @ Joshua Jonathan:. Do please clarify. Thanks! Robert Walker ( talk) 11:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
@ First Light:, first, that's fine - I'm absolutely fine with ignoring the meta discussion above. I meant my original post to be focused on the WP:RS issue only and that was my reason for posting here, I was just verbose and didn't express the reasons well. Sorry about that. There is no need at all to comment on the meta discussion.
@ Alexbrn: - a bit of context. Theravadan Buddhism is the faith of an estimated 150 million adherents. See Buddhism by country. It is the majority religion of the countries of Cambodia, Thailand, and Sri Lanka. Thanissaro Bhikkhu, though he is Australian and writing in English is in a tradition from Thailand which has an estimated 93.2% of its population which follow variations on Therevadan Buddhism.
Each of these authors is of course speaking for his own faith, which may be a branch of the Therevadan tradition. So Thanissaro Bhikkhu for instance is speaking for the Thai Forest Tradition. One would expect an article on central topics of Buddhism to have sources from many different versions of the Buddhist faith, and that indeed is what the previous version of this article did. Nearly all the material in the current version is cited to Western academic sources.
It would be a matter of discussion on the talk page of which are the most representative authors for a particular branch of the Buddhist faith. Just as, for instance, one might have a discussion of which Jesuits are the most representative of Ignatian spirituality in their writings. But generally - I'd expect an article on Ignatian spirituality to be sourced to writings by Jesuits on this topic. So it's the same here, there are many Bhikkhu scholars in various branches of Therevadan Buddhism, and it would be important to label them clearly according to which branch of their faith they represent, especially in sections where those distinctions are important. Then, there are many other branches of the Buddhist faith also. This is indeed how the original Anatta article was presented before @ Joshua Jonathan:'s rewrite in July and August 2014. See [40] where different sections describe the understanding of Anatta according to various schools of Buddhism, citing sources within those schools to descriptions to the views on Anatta by those schools, and often with quotations from well regarded sources within those schools.
So I'm not asking about that, but whether they can be used as the main sources at all, because the material is often reverted on the basis that what they write is coloured by their own views on their own faith, and that we need to source them to authors who don't have their views on Therevadan Buddhism coloured by being themselves trained as Therevadan Buddhist scholars. If I understand you right, I think you are agreeing that it is okay to use the Therevadan scholars themselves as the main sources, though of course one may need to provide evidence that they are well regarded and notable, and need of course to explain if their faith differs in significant ways from other Therevadans.
On evidence of his notability as a translator, and to show that he is well regarded, Thanisarro Bhikkhu has many cites in google scholar, e.g. his "The middle length discourses of the Buddha" has 256 cites [41]. So, these cites were cites to introductions to sutras by a notable and highly cited translator of the sutras - which are the primary texts for Therevadans - and indeed shared with the other sutra schools too, which differ mainly by adding extra sutras to the core collection. The introduction to a text by a translator according to my understanding would count as a secondary source on that text. Robert Walker ( talk) 13:04, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
How many times are you going to come back to the Anatta-article? You have insinuated over and over again that my edits there were mal-practice; I have over and over again linked to my extensive explanations at the talkpage Talk:Anatta/Archive 3#Constructive comments, and ScientificQuest's response Talk:Anatta/Archive 3#Comments on Constructive Feedback:
"Hi Joshua, Chris, Victoria, and Robert. Please don't mind my personal note - since I made some bad personal remarks here earlier, I figure it is only right for me to write a personal apology. And again, instead of writing on your individual talk pages, I decided to own it up in public.
Joshua, thanks a lot for your very constructive feedback. I really appreciate this line-by-line feedback of exactly what went wrong in my post. It keeps it to facts, and states exactly what the problem is with the style. Coming from a background of writing for academic Journals, I can see my tendency to write original research - because arguably that's what academics do (unless perhaps they're editing Wikipedia pages)."
Could you please remember this response, and stop recycling the Anatta-article?
Robertinventor: you said, If I understand you right, I think you are agreeing that it is okay to use the Therevadan scholars themselves as the main sources". No, quite the opposite, I said that, "In that case, a religious leader could be quoted, but from a third-party source." That means a third-party neutral academic source that shows: notability of the person in the context of this article; notability of what is being said; the academic has neutrally analysed or chosen the statement as representative, rather than a WP editor cherry-picking quotes. First Light ( talk) 14:37, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
" But he does indeed have a specific Theravada point of view, which means that some of his interpretations may be coloured. That's why, and when, academic sources, are to be preferred: they have more distance to the subject."
Oh, I see. But these are scholars primarily. Even the Dalai Lama when he writes his books is writing as a Buddhist scholar, not as a teacher promulgating his own ideas and interpretations - he is presenting the views of Tibetan Buddhists generally as best he can and would not be expected to add anything new to this in terms of ideas of his own. Especially on core teachings such as the Four Noble Truths. Buddhism is much less lead by spiritual leaders than Hinduism, because of Buddha's teaching that we have to rely on the sutras and not take on any other teacher after he died. Other sources are not teachers at all - Walpola Rahula was just a scholar like any western academic scholar, but trained in a Buddhist tradition originally. Same also for Prayudh Payutto. And the problem is that these third party sources are not "neutral". They say themselves that their objective is to reinterpret the Buddhist teachings, not to present them as understood by those who have this faith themselves. Carol Anderson did write a book presenting the faith of Therevadan Buddhism, her "Basic Buddhism" and it said different things from her academic study "Pain and its Ending" which was a kind of deconstruction and reconstruction of Buddhism into a new structure of ideas. Most of the western commentaries are of that sort, and they say so themselves, and this is what @ Joshua Jonathan: is using as his principle sources for the articles. I hope this brief reply is in order - I've been taking a wikibreak and just logged in again. I'm going to voluntarily limit my number of posts in order to avoid verboseness. Thanks! Robert Walker ( talk) 13:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
First thanks for your help so far. I have an action against me in WP:ANI with a proposal to topic ban me from the Buddhism topic area for six months. One of the reasons for doing this is my verbosity in this discussion. As a result I think it is necessary to take a wikibreak. I hope you can understand and I appreciate your kind replies once I managed to formulate my question correctly. Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Specific_Unpleasant_Remedy.2C_Topic-Ban - Specific Unpleasant Remedy Topic Ban . Robert Walker ( talk) 22:34, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
There doesn't appear to be any specific procedure for closing a case at this noticeboard. However, it appears that this filing was well-meant but misguided because it didn't have to do with specific sources but with a meta-question about types of sources (Western non-Buddhist sources, Western Buddhist sources, Asian Buddhist sources). Robert McClenon ( talk) 03:05, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
MjolnirPants and I find ourselves at an impasse on the argument from authority page: can a scientific source, such as Carl Sagan or the Medical Press and Circular journal be taken as a reliable source on that page, or is the proper procedure to remove them since only philosophers may be cited for it? PraiseTheShroom ( talk) 03:55, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Those are not the sources I have in mind. I specifically mean mine from the Medical Press and Circular which was deleted, and that from Sagan. You sir are, frankly, running wild! PraiseTheShroom ( talk) 04:27, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
One phenomenon that is happening in the US is that previously-"vapid" sources like Buzzfeed, Teen Vogue, and Cosmopolitan have increasingly made their journalism serious:
For now I am not in an editing dispute involving any of these magazines, but it may be good to note possible changes in status and/or to distinguish between "vapid" and "serious" Buzzfeed articles (I'm sure somebody already posted to the noticeboard about the changes in Buzzfeed) WhisperToMe ( talk) 02:56, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
The site in question is [55] with all its dependant sites. These sites are being extensively used, and I have seen them to be referred as reliable sources. However, are they? They seem to be openly editable, and there seems to be no team large enough to ensure accuracy of all data here. Some of these entries were possibly stitched together with WP:OR, if this is true. I have two reasons for bringing this up here: If this source isn't reliable, then we have a lot of articles with information from an unreliable source, which is bad. I have seen at least one article only sourced via this site. Also, if I can be convinced this source is reliable, or reliable in a specific context, then I could use it myself on articles that seem to meet WP:N. Burning Pillar ( talk) 22:08, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello. I'm not sure this is the right place to ask this question, but I'm currently doing a project on Wikipedia and would love any input on the topic of blogs. Pretty much, I believe blogs should not have this negative stigma as an unreliable resource when it comes to citing them on Wikipedia. As a hip-hop fan, many of the places that cover the genre are blogs, and so I believe it is a bit unfair to the industry as well. Also, in terms of Wikipedia appealing to younger generations, I think it would be beneficial to allow more blogs as sources since many millennials read them and would be able to cite them in articles. What are your thoughts? Thanks! AdamtheGOAT ( talk) 21:17, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
Well let me address your question User:Jytdog.
I just used a blog (not by a recognized expert (by an undergraduate in fact), and not published under the aegis of a news organization) as a source. I did it and it felt good and I'd do it again. And here's why.
Here's the passage: "A plaque in the building commemorates its hosting of the 5th International Congress of Chambers of Commerce and of Commercial and Industrial Associations in 1912, attended by American President William Howard Taft and delegates from fifty-five countries". And here is the ref.
(Note that we're not saying that the 5th International Congress of Chambers of Commerce and of Commercial and Industrial Association was held at the place. There may never have been such an organization or event for all we know. We're just reporting that there's a plaque that says it.)
When looking at source, of course what I want is assurance that's its been gone over either in scientific peer review, or by an independent professional fact-checker. But a lot of times you can't get that. So then it's on to Plan B, and when I look at the source itself four of the things I think about are:
Regarding the person who reported this fact:
All of this could be an elaborate hoax. But it's not. The entire article (blog post) clearly shows the work of an earnest architecture student who sees details and knows a bit about what he's seeing. "I began to notice the detail within the masonry... One of the things that I noticed... I paid close attention to the ornaments..." and so forth. He then describes some of these details, and correctly I believe. Everything he says that I do have from other sources checks out as accurate. Everything about this articl, what he says and the way he says it, indicates that he is the kind of person who would care about getting details right, especially about a building that he is describing
So then, finally, "I noticed... a large metal plaque. The plaque talks about how in this space in 1912, the 5th International Congress of Chambers of Commerce and of Commercial and Industrial Associations was held for three days, with President William Howard Taft in attendance, along with delegates from fifty-five countries"
He's not quoting the exact text, so we don't have to worry if we're getting a quote exactly right. He's just reporting what's on the plaque. And as I say it doesn't make sense for him to describe the building in great detail, and then make up a plaque for no reason.
How confident can we be that all this is true? >99% (which of course is the highest assurance we can ever have for any source).
There is a city called Boston. There is a Flour and Grain Exchange Building there. And there is a plaque in it that says there was that 1912 confab was held there. And that blog post is all the evidence we need. Herostratus ( talk) 16:08, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
A different tangent - on technical topics blogs are sometimes very authoritative in my opinion, but they are open to the "oooo a blog" attack. For instance, what is more reliable, the blog of a named security researcher with a reputation in the topic, or a gee-whiz sidebar in The Caller? Don't laugh; I've lived that one. It's a fringe case but it happens. Also in high tech, reporters' blogs are often better than their published stories, as they have not been dumbed down for a mass audiemce. But as you were; I am just muddying the waters, saying that I've seen problems with this one too. I don't have an across-the-board change to propose though. I'm not watching this page so ping if you have a question. Elinruby ( talk) 08:09, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
I recently added what I thought was a well-cited, direct quote of a public-domain website of the National Institutes of Health, which was reverted as "blatant promotional content" by Jytdog. I wasn't aware that NIH was not a WP:MEDRS or even a WP:RS. I realize that I shouldn't have used the honorific per MOS. Is NIH text "blatant promotional content" when used describing an official's qualifications? Toddst1 ( talk) 02:48, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
I oftentimes see FamilySearch gets cited usually as a reference to BLPs' date of birth, genealogy, etc. Is FamilySearch WP:PRIMARY, or reliable even? Blue sphere 03:25, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
While I was working on the Modest Mouse discography page a couple months ago, I was researching for information on the music video for their song "Coyotes" and found that this article from Interstate-8, a Modest Mouse fansite, was referenced in articles by Consequence of Sound, Chicago Tribune, and Pitchfork, among others. Since the original Interstate-8 post has been treated as legitimate by several reliable sources, then does this make Interstate-8 as a whole a reliable source for other information related to Modest Mouse, or should the "Coyotes" thing be treated as an isolated exception to the rule? I ask because I have been trying to find sources to prove that "The World at Large" was released as a promotional single, but aside from the single's page on Interstate-8, the only sources I can find so far are Discogs and Rateyourmusic, neither of which are RS's from my understanding. -- Dylan620 ( I'm all ears) 03:29, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
Epodunk seems to be OK to use for population data because it relies on the U.S. Census Bureau. But how about using it for other information? For example, the epodunk entry for Walnut Grove, Minnesota asserts that "Charles Ingalls, was the community's first justice". There is no source on epodunk for that assertion. Where does epodunk get such random information and should it be considered reliable? 32.218.33.196 ( talk) 18:21, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
Off-topic discussion that does not address the question
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Ctrl+F
List of DC Multiverse worlds for the words retconned to have migrated from Earth-Two
.
It's possible that the actual source is a letters page (as I understand, those were still a thing in American comics in the 1980s) but I can't shake the feeling that one of the comics cited is an earlier book in which the characters were not from Earth-Two, and the other a later book in which they were. My OR senses are tingling. But I'm wondering whether, if the comic proper included, for example, an editor's note that described it as a retcon, it would still be inappropriate.
Thoughts?
Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 08:26, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
Hi, Apologies if this is in the wrong place,
On the
Chloe Khan article a sentence stated "She has one child, a daughter called Destiny, who was born in 2008, by her former boyfriend, Ian Hough.
[1]"
I had removed the childs name per
WP:BLPPRIVACY as well as per
WP:BLPPRIMARY as other than tabloids no one reported on the child and Chloe herself has never mentioned the childs name on any of her social medias,
So my question is Is Okay magazine fine as a
WP:reliable source and not actually classed as a tabloid ?,
One editor at
Talk:Chloe_Khan#Daily_Express.3F believed said source was fine so figured I'd ask here,
Thanks, –
Davey2010
Talk 21:08, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
References
I'm basing my opinion on being familiar with OK! magazine as an occasional reader. It was bought by the Express Group, but they own a wide variety of publications and I think OK! should be judged on its own merits, it is nothing like the National Enquirer. The article also features a clip from Khan's social media where she refers to her daughter as 'DesDes' and has the hashtag '#Chloe'sDestiny' so the subject is not hiding her daughter's existence or name. Boleyn ( talk) 05:07, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
I think it's disappointing that people are commenting on a publication's reliability without actually checking things out. So far, MjolnirPants, you have made one comment alleging that OK! is owned by the same people as the National Enquirer and assessed Radar Online as if it is OK! Magazine. You haven't struck this comment (as yet), although the information is totally wrong. Kendall-K1 commented, also making the same errors, and has clarified that it was an assumption, although this hasn't been struck through, so someone skim reading may not see the clarification. We have a responsibility to get this right. It seems ok.co.uk is difficult to access for American IPs for some reason -this is a technical issue and says nothing about its reliability. When I type it in (from Britain), it goes straight to the right page. OK! is owned by Northern & Shell, which publish a range of magazines, newspapers and owns TV channels. When Northern & Shell bought the Express Group, I didn't notice any changes to OK! Magazine, which from what I can see they had owned for 7 years already. I see no evidence it is a 'daughter publication' of any other publication. Can we please actually take the time to analyse this source, not make assumptions without looking at the source itself? I realise this is more difficult for people who have not actually seen the publication or read it. As I've said before, I wouldn't use it to confirm a fact about physics, but having actually read it many times, I would feel comfortable on its basic facts about the lives of well-known people. Boleyn ( talk) 10:15, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Would these sources count as reliable sources?
I am thinking on the article Kadurugoda Vihara, where these sources are used. Is it okey to use these sources in this article? Xenani ( talk) 17:34, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
I don't know either who they are. It is used in the article Kadurugoda Vihara, and I removed the sources because it seemed not reliable but it is constantly been added back by the same user over and over again. Thats why wanted to be sure if the sources are reliable or not. I have also noticed that similar sources are used by same user in other articles. Xenani ( talk) 18:06, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
Not trying to promote myself, only to be more familar with wikipedia standards. Anyway, are these sources correct to use or not? Xenani ( talk) 18:14, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
Oh I misunderstood, sorry. But shall I remove the references or shall I just leave it? I think I should remove the Amazinglanka references and also the name part because it is obviously original research. What do you think? Xenani ( talk) 18:30, 12 May 2017 (UTC) Did just see that you dealt with it. Xenani ( talk) 18:31, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
There's no indication of reliability within our meaning ( WP:RS), so no — it's presumptively unreliable. However, if the author/photographer wants to contribute his or her photographs, with the proper licensing, to Wikimedia Commons,then that would be most welcome. Neutrality talk 01:27, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Hi Slatersteven: I saw your comment that you had a smell of self promotion upon the usage of a website by a user over Wikipedia articles as references. Without clear indications those statements shouldn't be expressed. I keeps re-inserting the removed contents after a newly created User:Xenani account delete some of contents in few articles by citing about the citations ( As the user did here) www.srilankatravelnotes.com is a travel magazine that not gives much sense over the topic. Amazinglanka is also a locally vast website gives lot of information with valuable and rare photographs and not seemed to be maintained by one person. Photographs can be used as references and considered as highly reliable materials. These website links have been used as reference in number of articles in Wikipedia by various users. However these links were initially put as inline citation and after they were removed and list under the external link section. However User:Xenani had removed the whole name section reciting it is a original research ( As here). But these facts are confirmed by local refs and i didn't put them as most readers can not read them. However I was learnt that we can put local references in to the articles. And I also like to hear explanation how did you find out the some of references in this article as unreliable (according to WP:RS). It will help me to correct my future edits.-- L Manju ( talk) 03:11, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Hi L Manju . It is allowed to use sources that are not in English, although they should still be reliable and should also provide the quote supporting the content with a translation according to Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English_sources . It seems that the sites you have used are still not RS, also the sources the sites itself doesn't seem as RS. Who is "Rohan L. Jayetilleke" or the author of "Eelam the truth"? Are they any professional scholars? The website link you provided at point 2 doesn't work either. Also the new citation you added to the name section indicating the Kantharodai is a Tamilised word, particulary the source "Yapanaye Iethihasamaya Urumaya". It doesn't exist? I can't find anything about the source at all. Although I found another work from the author called "Yapanaye Aithihasika Urumaya", maybe this was the one you meant? Anyway according to WP:SOURCE, the source should be published or else it isn't reliable. Xenani ( talk) 15:02, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Hi L Manju. I am not sure but if you use a website like Amazinglanka, isn't it your responsibility to prove that this is an accurate website? I don't say that the content published by Rohan L. Jayetilleke is baseless, but how can I know that without knowing his position? Even I can write something without you knowing if that content is correct, but I am not a professional scholar and thus I don't except you to believe me and in the same way, how can I or others believe in what Rohan L. Jayetilleke has published? It is not about my personal opinion about this person, but according to WP:RS, "If available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources, such as in history, medicine, and science.". That is why I asked you if he was professional in his field or not. It wasn't me who used him as source, it was you. You used a website which didn't seem professional in the beginning, that is why I removed the references. You should have used the direct source instead of the website in the beginning. The reason why I was extra observant with name section is that Kantharodai has long been a place of Tamil settlement. When just a random claim about the name not being original Tamil, then it should be proved by a academic person who is professional in that field. The source used to prove this was just a random website, which didn't seem reliable. At least now you have used a better source, but still I am not sure if that is reliable, and that is the reason I mentioned it here, to ask if someone could prove if it was reliable or not. At least you could prove if the source is reliable since it is you who have used this as a source. Peace Xenani ( talk) 07:40, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
Since I edit lots of U.S. politics and current events pages I've been running into Mediaite a lot lately. It's one of those new-ish progressive websites that straddles the line between news and blogging, and I've been having trouble figuring out whether it's generally reliable or not. I'm leaning against.
This is not to say that Mediaite is a bad organization, just that I haven't seen much evidence of a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 17:47, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
I haven't managed to find any any evidence of it being cited by other, established, reliable sources.- I've seen them cited in the more mainstream press several times. A google search for "mediaite site:nytimes.com", for example, returns 220 hits, with 1900 on WaPo, and a handful at all the rest. That's a superficial measure, of course. As far as quality, well, it does have a political bent, and does pull a lot of its content from other sources that could be cited instead. I'd put it at about the level of Talking Points Memo or the main Huffington Post site, and certainly lower then e.g. Salon or On the Media (not a website, obviously, but similar subjects and a similar perspective but with a lot more rigor). $0.02. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 23:12, 5 May 2017 (UTC)