This page is an archive. Do not edit the contents of this page. Please direct any additional comments to the current main page. |
This "place" doesn't even exist, and there is no proper name attached to it, except by those who have fabricated this as a spinoff of Quadripoint (which also is OR and should be reviewed as such and was formerly title "Four Corners"). There's not even a true fourway boundary point here, the boundaries don't meet up at a "crossroads". Lots of "reaching" and over-justifying here, buried under verbiage which makes this sound legitimate, and continued use of the term Four Corners in this article and in Quadripoint to retrench the use of that term as if anyone used it. There is no place called "Four Corners" in Canada, certainly not capitalized as if it were a proper name and legitimate/real concept. Wikipedia is not for trivia, nor for documenting the assemblage of trivia as a hobby. Skookum1 ( talk) 07:27, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
An editor at Taj Mahal is adding material which, s/he claims, represents a "feminist" point of view on the monument. It is difficult to summarise the issue here, as the editor is bringing in several sources to support a fairly obscure journalistic article, which raises serparate questions of WP:NOTE and WP:RS. My concern is with the use of the more legitimate sources is WP:SYN, that they are being used to advance an argument about an alleged feminist position which the sources themselves are not making. The editor writes:
Begley [Wayne E. Begley, ‘The Myth of the Taj Mahal'] goes on to quote many authentic sources to underline how Shahjahan's monument was 'intended to symbolise his glory and not only his devotion'. (p. 10) He says that monument 'served as a symbol, as it were of imperial destiny....a tangible manifestation of his magnificent obsession with his own greatness'. (ibid). That Taj Mahal has served as an image to advance the male notions of power is a logical inference of this argument. That non-notable journalistic article also draws upon many such studies to underline how Taj is not just a monument of love--but a manifestation of a male-cum-royal grandeur.
Of course I have no objection to Begley's discussion of the dynastic symbolism of the monument. My concern is that this is then used to make statements about "male power" (though the commission of a grand monument by the previous Shah's widow is not used to make claims about "female" power) Paul B ( talk) 16:14, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Also: For WP: Note and WP:RS, also see ‘exceptions’ stating “If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it.” For WP: SYN, please read full articles on the blog as mentioned and Begley’s article too.
The present discussion should also bear in mind this guideline of Wikipedia: “Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view. NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. This policy is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it.”
Saramohanpur1940 Saramohanpur1940 ( talk) 17:31, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Anyone want to take a crack at Semantic infiltration? It was created by an obvious sockpuppet and I've already removed some of the most unsuitable content, but there still appears to be a good deal of OR and SPS. If you think it just ought to be TNT'd that's cool too, I thought I'd just bring it here first. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 19:39, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
The creator of the Lighthouse Pub article has used his own blog [1] as a source and claims to be a former journalist [2]. If he can provide examples of his past work in the relevant field from reliable sources, could his blog be considered a self-published expert source, therefore passing the WP:NOR requirement? -- Drm310 ( talk) 19:30, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
I am writing to ask whether, with your help and input, it might be possible to find an acceptable way of summarizing a few points made by Robert Gayre in his book (and maybe his articles) explaining why he favours the 'Semitic' theory for the origin of the ancient Zimbabwean Civilization. Some Wikipedia readers are undoubtedly curious and interested to learn what the arguments are - both for and against the 'Semitic' theory (and indeed the 'Shona' theory, too).
In the 'Lemba' section of the Wikipedia 'Great Zimbabwe' page, the old summary which was there until 4th May, was deemed to contain 'Original Research', and therefore inappropriate for Wikipedia.
OK, I won't argue with that - but I am wondering if there might be a way of compromising - by simply extracting the relevant points from Gayre's book - and then presenting them - without discussing how they might relate to other people's findings. Could we then regard such a text, as not comprising 'Original Research'?
If so, this is how it might look:
- - - - - - - - - - -
1. The Lemba were esteemed by neighbouring tribes as exceptionally skilled miners and metal workers; (these were distinctive features of the Zimbabwean Civilization).
2. The stone phallic symbols discovered in some of the ancient ruins, were models of circumcised male organs; (that is significant because surrounding tribes regarded the Lemba as the masters and originators of the art of circumcision).
3. The Lemba buried their dead in an extended rather than a crouched position, (i.e., they chose the same style as that found in certain Zimbabwean graves which contained gold jewellery).
4. The old Lemba language was a dialect of Karanga (which is the language spoken today in the area around Great Zimbabwe).
Thus, Gayre argues that the South African Lemba are probably descended from members of the original community who fled southwards when Great Zimbabwe was captured by non-Semites.
- - - - - - - - - - -
It goes without saying that all suggestions for modification, will be well received.
Dougweller also asked me to mention that we have been discussing this topic at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Great_Zimbabwe
With thanks in anticipation, DLMcN ( talk) 21:00, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
User 4WhatMakesSense ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is adding idiosyncratic theories, or deleting properly sourced text, at multiple articles and "supporting" these by near-incomprehensible arguments. Examples include Book of the Dead [3] [4], Aramaic language [5] [6], Mesha Stele [7] [8] [9]. Zero talk 14:04, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
4WhatMakesSense has been blocked for disruptive editing. Zero talk 02:28, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
I have started a Rfc on Ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka which is relevant to this noticeboard - "Does this article comply with Wikipedia's core content policies: neutral point of view, verifiability and no original research?" Please feel free to comment here. Thank you.-- obi2canibe talk contr 19:15, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
Just after some generic advice, though I may bring up the exact discussion in question if discussion continues. Is a diagram of a highway shield considered to be original research if it is copied from, or based upon, photos of real-world installations. WP:NOR would seem to suggest that most original images arent considered original research, so long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments. I would assume a highway shield which marks a roadway would not do either (and that it would affect things more like controversial graphs and diagrams which portray complex information in a visual form). Do others beleive I am correct in this regard? It seems pretty clear cut to me, or am I misreading the policy? Is there any circumstance where a highway shield diagram outside in a non-disputed territory could be claimed to be OR? -- Nbound ( talk) 14:00, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
This looks to me like a primary source: [14]
Another editor is claiming it is a secondary source, evidently because the document is found on the WSJ's website. [15] It appears that he's looking at the date on the first page (May 14, 2013) and using that information to assert that the document became available to the public on that day. While that may well be correct, in my view, he is doing original research. Federales ( talk) 04:46, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
I agree. You're still not understanding what I wrote. You're missing my point.
The Wikipedia article was claiming that the "full report" (the TIGTA) was issued on May 15th. That claim may be true, or that may be incorrect.
But the source cited for that claim in the Wikipedia article is only a PDF copy of the actual TIGTA report -- at the Wall Street Journal web site. You're getting hung up on my reference to the Wall Street Journal as being a secondary source. The Wall Street Journal IS a secondary source, when it comes to describing what is in the TIGTA report. By contrast, the TIGTA report itself is a primary source when it comes to describing what is in the TIGTA report.
The Wikipedia article was falsely claiming that either the Wall Street Journal web site, or the TIGTA report itself, or both, are saying that the full report was issued on May 15th. That is false. The Wall Street Journal web site does not say that, and the TIGTA report does not say that.
It's not a question of whether the source -- the linked material -- is "primary" or "secondary." It doesn't matter whether you consider the link in the article to be a link to the Wall Street Journal (which would be a secondary source), or to the TIGTA report (which would be a primary source). Either way, a statement in a Wikipedia article must be supported by the sourced material. The statements in the source material must stand for the proposition in the Wikipedia article. In this case, the statement that the full report was released on May 15th is not supported. Famspear ( talk) 05:47, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
OK, I made this change in the article. Thanks, Federales, it's your baby now, if you feel it needs more changes. I gotta get to bed. Yours, Famspear ( talk) 06:26, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
I have started an RFC that is relavent to WP:ORN for the background section of Rape and pregnancy controversies in United States elections, 2012. Please comment on this RFC, here. Casprings ( talk) 16:29, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm curious as to whether the following scenario associated with the page List of Internal Revenue Service political profiling controversies implicates WP:NOR.
The claim "[t]hree out of four respondents felt entitled to deceive or lie when testifying before a congressional committee" appears in the article under a subheading entitled IRS culture. It is sourced primarily to a survey of IRS managers and executives. It's sourced secondarily to an opinion piece. However, the primary source does not actually include the cited claim, and the opinion piece that's the secondary source for the claim is just one of numerous opinion pieces that contains the claim.
Is it OR to remove the claim? I don't believe it would be, for a couple of reasons.
1. My understanding of OR is that it requires addition to an article, whereas removal of an unsupported claim involves subtraction. It seems counter to the notion of verifiability that, when a primary source is cited for a particular claim, that source should not be consulted to determine whether or not it actually says what it is being cited for. This seems like an exercise of verification rather than a violation of WP:NOR.
2. Although there are secondary sources for the claim, the only such sources are opinion pieces. Regardless of the number of such pieces that make the same claim, relying on opinion sources for a factual claim seems problematic enough that consulting the primary source is warranted. And, again, the point is not to analyze and distill the primary source; it's to determine whether the claim appears at all in the primary source.
There's further discussion of this at the article's talk page, with User:Federales being the primary (and I believe only) proponent of the notion that removing the claim is impermissible under WP:NOR. So am I just wrong about the meaning of OR? Is it acceptable (or even mandatory) to leave a verifiably false claim in an article just because secondary sources of dubious reliability make that claim? Dyrnych ( talk) 04:28, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia; but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.[4] Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so. Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them. Do not add unsourced material from your personal experience, because that would make Wikipedia a primary source of that material. Use extra caution when handling primary sources about living people; see WP:BLPPRIMARY, which is policy.
What part of "any", as in "any interpretation", are you having trouble with? You're trying to cherry-pick the policy to make it say what you wish it said, but is clearly says "Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself". Isn't that pretty clear? Do not interpret. Do not evaluate.
And you're also misrepresenting the secondary source. Bovard (WSJ) doesn't claim the survey makes that statement directly, he is interpreting the survey to mean what he says about it. For you, as a Wikipedia editor, to go back to the primary source and second-guess Bovard is original research, which is explained succinctly in the verbiage that is bolded. It really isn't that complicated, is it? Federales ( talk) 06:00, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
I've already deleted a series of photos and maps here which, even without their captions, but simply by inclusion, suggested conclusions about this location mentioned in the sagas. There's more, including leading questions as captions on the remaining photos and lots of speculation in the content. There's probably more of this same kind of thing on Helluland and Markland and related articles, this one shocked me at how overtly original research all of it is. Skookum1 ( talk) 07:25, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
Apologies for bringing others into a painful discussion that we seem to be unable to resolve for ourselves. This noticeboard has been pointed to by a party to one of the two widely divergent opinions, and there seems to be no way forward without listing the matter here. Thanks for considering this. The discussion is at Talk:Artemisia absinthium#WP:MEDRS used to suppress all mention of ongoing research. Sminthopsis84 ( talk) 17:36, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
In the article Outer space an editor at 15.211.201.82 noted [17] the phrase "Observations now prove that it also contains dark matter and dark energy" is an "Extraordinarily claim despite unsettled science". I did a cleanup changing "Observations now prove" to "Observations indicate it may also contain" based on dark matter and dark energy being "hypothetical"( diff) (as stated in their WP articles). Another editor basically reverted the edit ( diff) claiming "Nothing extraordinary at all about the claim that outer space contains dark matter and dark energy; it's the overwhelming consensus of astronomers based on the observations." The sources being used say "implying" and "evidence for" and "Theorists still don't know what the correct explanation is"... so do not seem to support "proven" or "are the dominant components of space" (tried pointing out that the sources being cited do not contain a definitive statement but the editor kept reverting diff diff). The editor's main premiss seems to be [18] "its ok to boil down theoretical work to "facts" since its a boiled down lead summary and astronomer A and B are pretty sure it exist so it can be a presented as a fact" (I would also note the article body presents dark matter and dark energy as fact). To me "astronomer A being pretty sure" and "astronomer B being pretty sure" should not be joined together to imply a conclusion C "prove" or "are" or "90% of the mass is in an unknown form" or "is the dominant component of space" per WP:SYNTH. Also seems obvious to me theoretical work should not be presented as "fact" in any part of Wikipedia. Same editor has expressed these opinions before per: Way/Archive 3 (section Supermassive black holes). Fountains of Bryn Mawr ( talk) 23:01, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
There is some disagreement over the WP:OR policy as it applies to men's rights movement (MRM). Two editors argue that we should use sources that don't deal with the topic of the article, i.e., the men's rights movement. To give you one example: An editor added this section about custodial sentencing. The source – a parliamentary debate and speech by Philip Davies – doesn't say anything about the MRM or any of its representatives. There is also no indication that Davies is a men's rights activists or someone who speaks for the MRM. So there is no connection. The editor who added the section argues that it "fits directly under mens rights" (I assume he meant "men's rights movement") and that sources need not say anything or make the connection to the men's rights movement. Similarly, another editor argued that it isn't against the WP:OR policy to use generic statistics on alimony and divorce from sources that do not discuss the MRM ( "MRM makes claims about divorce. Neutral divorce statistics are brought in.")
Can uninvolved editors clarify if it is or is not a violation of WP:OR and WP:Synth to add statistics from sources that say nothing about the topic of the article (examples of stats and conent copied from other articles [19] [20] [21])? For instance, men's rights activists make claims about alimony, rape, dowry laws and a variety of other issues. Is it okay to add alimony, rape and dowry death statistics from sources that don't deal with the men's righs movement at all and do not make that connection? Can we just transfer the statistics from False accusation of rape, alimony and dowry death etc. to Men's_rights_movement#Rape, Men's_rights_movement#Divorce, and Men's_rights_movement#Dowry laws? -- Sonicyouth86 ( talk) 20:04, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Hello, I'm Surfer43. I have observed the species Gasteracantha cancriformis mating and have uploaded it to commons at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gasteracantha_cancriformis_mating_in_Summer.webm. I want to include it in the article Gasteracantha cancriformis, but doing so would probably require a new section with text sourced from http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/accounts/Gasteracantha_cancriformis/. However information from that page is contradictory to the video(For example, my video disproves that the species has only been observed mating in a labratory, disproves that the species only mates in Winter(I suppose it doesn't if you don't trust the datestamp on it), and generally adds more information about it.) I know information from this video is not from a verifiable, reliable, published source, but it seems ridiculous to write knowingly incorrect information that contradicts the video. I don't know how to get this new finding about the species "published". I am asking for any advice. Thanks, Surfer43 ( talk) 21:57, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
The article on Theistic evolution seems to contain an awful lot of OR and synth based on primary sources. I've removed the worst of the material, lists of adherents and proponents that were either completely unsourced or synth. There is a discussion going on on the talk page. Would appreciate it if more editors would examine the article and weigh in. There is a valid topic here, but the article seems to have become a coatrack article on a vague concept. Thank you. Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 02:48, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
I.e, is it a reasonable summary of the following sources to say the publication
Mormon Studies Review is to be a
review journal?
New editor quoted at publisher's website:
... [It] is to be model[led] in part on Reviews in American History. We’re going to chronicle and assess the field, in other words, not contribute to it in terms of original scholarship. It will be a place where scholars and other interested readers can quickly, conveniently find great minds engaging one another about the current and future state of several fields.
City newspaper's religion reporter:
"At this point, the biggest challenge might be trying to keep up with the variety and volume of scholarship about Mormonism. ... [The journal] will provide an overview and analysis of all the publishing in the field...."
Student newspaper at the university affiliated with the publisher:
[It] is to help fill a void within the ever-growing field of Mormon studies. The Review will include reviews of books, essays and other scholarly publications related to Mormonism and the field’s growth and development. The first issue of the Review is expected to be available this coming winter. .... The executive director of the Maxwell Institue, M. Gerald Bradford, is eager to see the Mormon Studies Review take its place in the field of Mormon studies. ... I expect it will soon become a major voice in tracking and commenting on developments in the growing area of Mormon studies." [22].
altho WP is not an RS, here's a quote from the WP article on review articles
' Review articles are an attempt to summarize the current state of understanding on a topic. They analyze or discuss research previously published by others, rather than reporting new experimental results. They come in the form of systematic reviews and literature reviews and are a form of secondary literature. Systematic reviews determine an objective list of criteria, and find all previously published original experimental papers that meet the criteria. They then compare the results presented in these papers. Literature reviews, by contrast, provide a summary of what the authors believe are the best and most relevant prior publications.
Sources are linked to on talk page.-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 19:38, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Question to the notice board: Can WP term the journal a review journal?-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 17:37, 12 June 2013 (UTC)There have been an explosion of journals covering the field, to the point that one could say there is more quantity than quality. We have seen an increase in quality books, with many more to come. There are conferences throughout the nation (and lately, to a very limited extent, world), and academic chairs and programs cropping up at prestigious universities. [... ...]
That’s where the Neal A. Maxwell Institute comes in. In a (sub)field seemingly so decentralized, the Institute is trying to establish a geographic core. This will primarily be through their new journal, The Mormon Studies Review. Aimed, in part, to be a Mormon version of Books and Culture, the annual journal will offer book reviews, review essays, and discipline, methodology, and topical articles that assess recent trends in the many different disciplines that live under the eclectic umbrella of “Mormon studies.” Written for educated lay readers as well as experts, it finds one of the last remaining niches left in the Mormon studies world: a review journal that is a mix between New York Review of Books and an interdisciplinary version of Reviews in American History.
[... ...]
I have the privilege to serve as Associate Editor, and I am genuinely thrilled to participate in such an impressive and important project.
whose Wiki article sezonly journal that brings together scholarship from every major field of historical study. The AHR is unparalleled in its efforts to choose articles that are new in content and interpretation and that make a contribution to historical knowledge. The journal also publishes approximately one thousand book reviews per year, surveying and reporting the most important contemporary historical scholarship in the discipline. LINK
- ..... To sniff that the AHR inn't no review journal, while marvelously pedantic-SOUNDING,would I'd imagine be a false - slash - pretty much unsupportable, hence highly controversial, assertion (see, eg, " Literature review"). No?-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 15:30, 13 June 2013 (UTC)Each year approximately 25 articles and review essays and 1,000 book reviews are published.
OK there's a lot of free-standing commentary and the like in that iteration. But there was less in vol 23 - and in any case what is at issue at the moment is the stated purview for its upcoming numbers (say, vol 24-on--unless this vol is be renumbered No. 1).-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 17:27, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
So indeed apparently yes the term "review journal " is used in academia to refer to a journal that publishes more than the occasional review article (despite what the unsourced WPdia article Review journal claims: that such a journal must publish exclusively such articles). Such pedantry has arisen solely on Wikipedia and in my humble opinion WP cannot trump via in-house technical categorization what we may allege to be too loose of definitions used by the preponderance of the sources, esp. when these sources happen to be prestigious academic journals.-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 20:44, 14 June 2013 (UTC)Redgrave [Information Systems] will publish a new review journal in American history and related disciplines which will carry timely, in-depth review-essays of scholarly and non-fiction trade books and of reprints, teaching and research materials. Reviews in American History contains 160 pages per issue....
With respect to the Commonwealth of Nations membership criteria page, a user has added the following paragraph on Somaliland, a secessionist autonomous region in northwestern Somalia:
Somaliland: [1] unilaterally seceded from Somalia claiming succession to British Somaliland, which became part of Somalia shortly after independence in 1960. Its independence remains unrecognised. Delegates were sent to the 2007 Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting, and applied to join the Commonwealth under observer status, although the application has not been granted. [23] [24]
He claims that this paragraph is both neutral and accurate. I've explained to him here that it is obviously neither since a) Somalia did not exist prior to its July 1, 1960 independence day, and b) the former British Somaliland protectorate actually united with Italian Somaliland on that day to form the new nation of Somalia (per the CIA: "Britain withdrew from British Somaliland in 1960 to allow its protectorate to join with Italian Somaliland and form the new nation of Somalia" [25]). British Somaliland was not later incorporated into Somalia as insinuated in that paragraph above. The third problem is the statement that Somaliland's "independence remains unrecognised" since that already implies that the region is an independent country, when it is in fact only a self-declared independent state. "Self-declared independence remains unrecognised" would therefore be a more neutral presentation.
Given this, I proposed the following modification:
Somaliland: internationally recognized as an autonomous region of the Federal Republic of Somalia. [26] Those who call the area the Republic of Somaliland consider it to be the successor state of the former British Somaliland protectorate. Having established its own local government in Somalia in 1991, the region's self-declared independence remains unrecognized by any country or international organization. [27] Delegates from the territory were sent to the 2007 Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting, and applied to join the Commonwealth under observer status, although the application has not been granted. [28] [29]
The user rejected this proposal and instead added two non-neutral links from advocacy websites to support his argument ("Qaran News" & "Somalilandpress"; c.f. [30]). Note that these partisan sources themselves don't claim that British Somaliland "became part of Somalia shortly after independence in 1960" (c.f. [31], [32]). Please advise. Middayexpress ( talk) 15:53, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
There is a great debate going on in Talk:Gun control regarding what certain words mean, with accusations of original research all around. Some feedback from this group would be appreciated. Example debates
To avoid forum shopping or splitting of the discussion/consensus, please respond at Talk:Gun control Gaijin42 ( talk) 16:54, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
There is a ton of unsourced original research under Shared universe#Live-action television universes. 50.151.230.203 ( talk) 12:47, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
There is currently two RfC's concerning the use of sources at Talk:Hookup culture (which is also being considered for deletion here), that would benefit from community participation. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 13:52, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
See Talk:Gates of Alexander. I hope to find time in the next week to do further work on this article to see if the material I reverted can be used without it being original research, but I think that my reversion was correct. The editor I reverted suggests, and may well be right, that there are "two overlapping notions" but his sources don't discuss overlapping notions, which I pointed out. The editor replied (this is only part of the reply so it may not be enough to represent the reply "If we have two sets which contain common elements we have an overlap. The common elements are the names. The two 'notions' (perhaps I should have used the word 'sets' itself; it might have been judged more Wikipedian) are so obviously real, distinct and overlapping that I fail to understand why you have difficulty with this. They would appear to be, as a famous constitution apparently said, 'self evident'!" The editor is very unhappy with me. I'd appreciate other eyes either here or perhaps better yet on the article's talk page. Dougweller ( talk) 18:02, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
According to "The official website of the British Monarchy", a "A Commonwealth Realm is a country which has The Queen as its Monarch. There are 15 Commonwealth Realms in addition to the UK: Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Jamaica, Antigua and Barbuda, Belize, Papua New Guinea, St Christopher and Nevis, St Vincent and the Grenadines, Tuvalu, Barbados, Grenada, Solomon Islands, St Lucia and The Bahamas." [33]
Other than that, there appears to be little written about the concept. Yet there exists a lengthy article extensively sourced to articles that mostly do not even mention the term. The entire article therefore appears to be original research. It also appears to be a fork of Dominion. I would appreciate if other editors comment on it.
TFD ( talk) 15:24, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
User:Anonymous209.6 made a recent on the article Rape and pregnancy controversies in United States elections, 2012. The edit was discussed Talk:Rape_and_pregnancy_controversies_in_United_States_elections,_2012#WP:OR_-_SPECIFICALLY.2C_is_it_WP:OR_to_state_in_WP.27s_voice_that_1980s_WP:FRINGE_theories_that_ONLY_relate_in_any_way_to_ONE_section_.28Todd_Akin.29_also_are_necessary_to_understand_Mourdock.2C_Bartlett.2C_Smith.2C_Rivard.2C_Walsh.2C_Koster.3Fhere, but there was no consensus reached. Plus the background section was discussed in detail here. User:Anonymous209.6 states this is an issue related to WP:OR. This is an issue that was discussed on WP:ORN, here.
With that background, I wanted to get some outside opinions on the background section. Namely, is there a problem with WP:OR in using the background section for the entire article? Casprings ( talk) 23:09, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
Conversations on the general topic of the present Background section are a total mess. They are spread out all over WP, instead of kept together, and have unrelated issues and questions mashed in. Anything resembling consensus is difficult to fathom, and this is complicated by WP:OR and WP:SYNTH being in fact SEVERAL issues. While as per the closing admin, and several independent editors, WP:OR looks pretty obvious, also per closing admin, the argument has not been adequately fleshed out, in specific; to some extent it has just been stated as obvious. Similarly, while a consensus has been correctly claimed, it is actually NOT on the issue of WP:OR, but unhelpfully on the issue of WP:RS, which was not in question. All original research (in the real world), and WP:OR actually involves some references; that is not the issue. WP:OR does not just imply the absence of WP:RS, but includes statements by placement, in this case, stating that information is Background, namely that it is essential to an understanding of the subject material.
The Background section is presently the Background section of the WHOLE ARTICLE. While some editors claim that the material relates to Todd Akin (only one section of many), there has yet to be an argument that it relates to any other section. A previously uninvolved editor coming to the article would be led to believe that ALL persons named in the article have been directly linked by WP:RS to 1980s WP:FRINGE theories on female reproduction, because by making this the Background section, that is de facto stated IN WP's VOICE. No article connects Richard Mourdock to 1980s WP:FRINGE theories. Richard Mourdock did not say anything about 1980s WP:FRINGE theories. WP:FRINGE theories are not necessary, nor do they add anything to an understanding of what Richard Mourdock did or did not say. Substitute any name for Richard Mourdock, except that of Todd Akin, and you have the same rhetorical question; is stating that this background section is essential to understand _____ and directly connected to ____, as it's existence does, WP:OR, or is it stated in WP:RS.-- Anonymous209.6 ( talk) 00:57, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
A significant point raised by Casprings and FurrySings is that a background section will naturally draw in issues that are not directly related to the topic of an article (for example, events that took place before the topic of the article). Such a section is helpful to a reader but must be done be done fairly per WP:NPOV and using verifiable resources dealing with the topic of the article ( Rape and pregnancy controversies in United States elections, 2012 in this case) in order not to be original research. I didn't see evidence in discussion that that is not the case in this instance. Maybe the section in this instance is OR, just no evidence was given to demonstrate that it is so.
Please! Someone must undo this Original Research → http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Southern_Rhodesia&diff=428686199&oldid=420657150 I can not undo it. The guy who did that, had 2 messages about Original Research on Wikipedia. User talk:72.222.237.173
Is this release of excerpts from a report a primary source? Or should I just source direct quotes from it? Darkness Shines ( talk) 21:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Note: A version of this query was posted on WP:BLPN where no one responded except regarding procedural matters; two noninvolved editors at Editor's assistance said it would not be Forum Shopping to bring it here; editor in question objected.
WP:OR reads in intro: To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented.
Given that the editor has been going through a lot of biographies of Austrian economists he disagrees with, it needs to be made clear to him that adding this kind of WP:OR is against policy. Such debates belong in articles on the subject in question (for example, Economic forecasting), not in bios. If they were allowed there, many bios would just become argument fests of sources not mentioning the subject at all. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 13:59, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm not smart like you, but I am considerably more civil. SPECIFICO talk 22:28, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Just to make it clear what the complaint is, and since User:Specifico keeps adding WP:OR, here's the material we are talking about as of today. Only the first two sentences are sourced by material mentioning Huerta de Soto, the subject of the WP:BLP. The rest are in italics.:
In 2008 he stated that Austrian economists Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich Hayek were the only ones who predicted stock market crash of 1929 and the Great Depression of the 1930s. He also stated that Austrian School economists predicted the stagflation of the 1970s which followed the so-called oil crisis of 1973. [5] Economist Mark Skousen writes that in 1929 Mises declined a job at the Austrian bank Kreditanstalt telling his future wife "A great crash is coming and I don't want my name in any way connected to it." The bank failed in 1931. Skousen quotes Austrian economist Fritz Machlup as saying that Mises had been prophesying the failure of Kreditanstalt nearly every Wednesday afternoon since 1924. [6][improper synthesis?]
Chicago School economist Milton Friedman, whose positivist methodology was antithetical to the Austrian approach, foretold the 1970s stagflation in his 1967 Presidential Address to the American Economic Association. [7] [8] [9][improper synthesis?]
If this sort of thing is allowed, we might as well get rid of the WP:OR policy. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 00:37, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
In general I agree with balancing the less credible claims of Austrian School economists whether they appear in biographies or not. Wikipedia is uncharacteristically biased with hagiographies of Austrians and walled gardens supporting them which leave inaccurate impressions of the entire field due to the undue weight they have been afforded. I think it's reasonable to be pragmatic about that problem while it exists. EllenCT ( talk) 18:01, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Interesting comment, Stalwart. In case you were not aware, this article was recently mooted for AfD. I had no opinion on that, but it led to the current round of editing activity at the article. SPECIFICO talk 13:36, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
I have doubts that WP:CALC applies to converting an entry such as "Chanc. Inq. p.m. 4 Hen. VII, No. 87." (as shown in a pedigree chart published in the late 19th century) into "died 1488" in an article. It's not something that the average reader could confirm without some specialist knowledge. Our articles Inquisition post mortem and Regnal years of English monarchs provide background info, and the discussion at Talk:Manor of Molland#Original research etc is relevant. And if consensus is that WP:CALC does apply, should the date be shown as 1488, 1488/9 or 1489? — SMALL JIM 21:47, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
Where are the sources for all these names and facts? How can we check them out. This entire article looks like a puff piece to me, but I am really interested seeing some citations. Yours, GeorgeLouis ( talk) How can you say they are "notable" if they don't have Wikipedia articles. Tagging for challenge and removal. GeorgeLouis ( talk) 06:01, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
More attention at False accusation of rape would be nice, where we have someone repeatedly inserting his own personal opinions about a study which found a lower rate of false accusations than he believes in. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 20:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
An IP editor added a section to the High Noon article about the date of the story. No references were cited other than the film itself. I content that the section clearly violates NOR. I deleted the section twice over a several-day period citing either a reference is needed or NOR in the edit summary. I also looked for a reference but failed to find one. Another registered user deleted the section once also citing NOR in the edit summary. The IP editor contends their entry is not OR in a discussion on my talk page. Under several different IP addresses in as many days, they restored the section. Their most recent IP address is: 130.251.51.82; note that they have deleted messages regarding this issue from their talk page (update: they were restored). My feeling is that another party will be needed to resolve the issue. Regards, Pinethicket ( talk) 14:18, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
One editor is continuing to replace material at Paul-Louis Couchoud ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) which is basically original research supporting the Christ myth theory without actually discussing Couchoud. He's been warned by another editor for OR on this article and on another article by a 3rd editor, but he either doesn't understand our policy or doesn't care. See his talk page - c for his comments (or lack of them) and for more evidence about his interest in the Christ myth idea. I haven't reverted him after his latest replacement of it but I would like others to see if they agree with me. His latest revert is [35] and as you can see his edit summary is "article on important chapter of history of rationalism in France based on Couchoud, his reception, during and after hislife" - which examplifies the problem, this is meant to be a biography, not an article on an aspect of the history of rationalism in France based on Couchoud. Thanks. Dougweller ( talk) 15:55, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Article affected: Battle of Triangle Hill (possibly United States presidential election, 1952 depends on the outcome of this dispute)
Other dispute party: User:NumbiGate: notification sent.
current discussion on talk page
Focus of dispute:
1) Mentions of 1952 United States presidential election should be included in the article of Battle of Triangle Hill since they are both major events of Korean War and happens to happen at the same time period.
2) Statement based on citation 84 (Despite its impact and scale, the Battle of Triangle Hill is one of the least known episodes of the Korean War within the Western media.[84]) should be amended because Battle of Triangle Hill is mentioned in mass media in the United States during the 1952 election.
3) Summarizing primary documentations in the article without stating conclusions that "Battle of Triangle Hill affected the 1952 United States presidential election" is not breaching WP:PSTS policy.
4) During the entire discussion User:NumbiGate refused to provide any secondary sources that supports his points, and it is making me unable to either understand or incorporate his suggestions due to lack of sources to cross reference. Jim101 ( talk) 17:23, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
Should the article IAAF Hall of Fame contain an unsourced list of athletes that, according to the research of Wikipedia editors, meet the criteria for a future inclusion in the hall of fame? I found eight factual errors in the section and objected to the content based on WP:V, WP:OR, WP:CRYSTAL and WP:BLP, arguing that it constitutes unverifiable original research and unencyclopedic speculation, but two editors who have worked on the list disagree with me. Prolog ( talk) 11:28, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
As a once-contributor to the article I have been invited by Trackinfo to express my opinion:
The discussion whether WP:NOR or CRYSTAL etc is the case here is IMHO time-vasting. There are only two crucial pieces of information for the article - 1) criteria of eligibility, 2) list of members (ie those already inducted) with year of induction. Both of them are satisfactory covered and make the article solid. IMHO there is no need to have also a list of possible future inductees who match the criteria. Only these already chosen and announced as members of the Hall of Fame are necessary for the article. So please drop any appendices listing potential candidates from the article. This should solve the whole issue. -- Miaow Miaow ( talk) 03:59, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
As an uninvolved editor, I'd like to add my opinion. The list as presented simply states which athletes match the criteria for inclusion to the IAAF Hall of Fame, rather than speculating if they will or will not be inducted. By that measure, I would not say that it quite falls under WP:CRYSTAL, but the possibility of changes in or waiving of criteria for induction does mean that such a list cannot be, well, crystal clear. I think, by that measure, it distracts from the article by giving the impression that there is a mechanical process to the induction, rather than consideration of individuals who already meet the criteria - if there is no source to confirm that any of the athletes mentioned are being considered by the IAAF for future induction, then I feel it gives something of a false impression of surety.
I can see the potential for a short list of athletes in prose illustrating that a number of athletes who are eligible have not been inducted, and I would definitely support cited discussion of any debate regarding the IAAF Hall of Fame and its processes of induction, especially the debate over the criteria for inclusion into the IAAF Hall of Fame - the points raised above regarding things like unattainability of new world records in some disciplines are important background for anyone reading the subject, and sourced controversy would add a lot to this article. Perhaps instead of continuing to debate whether or not the list should be included, editors could provide some flavour of the criteria debate to the article itself? — Sasuke Sarutobi ( talk) 00:04, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
I have to say that I agree with Miaow Miaow and SFB. It had bothered me from the beginning, that the criteria seem to be very broad. Lots of athletes match these criteria, maybe nearly hundred or more? Especially I missed great athletes from Russia and East Germany, which shaped a whole era. Montell 74 ( talk) 13:54, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
Editing dispute about the timeline of the naming of this individual. Several editors claim that he has a "style from birth" that include his forenames, citing the precedent set by other "Royal" articles for this practice. No direct source for this given. Indeed, it was stated the day after that not to have been chosen at that point (copiously sourced), was then announced to the public the day after that (also copiously sourced), and then registered yesterday (again, copiously sourced). There are also sources stating in advance what the title would be, once the name was known. Question is, does this take "retrospective" effect, or should it be reported as if it does, "by convention", and what sort of sourcing would be sufficient for this. Incidentally, tags pointing out that the date isn't in the source keep being removed. 84.203.39.131 ( talk) 21:34, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
An editor has added a list of staff and employees (non-members) to this list of members of the organization. The editor admits that it is original research from primary sources but sees no problem with that, re-adding it after acknowledging the OR. Capitalismojo ( talk) 02:51, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
The article on electronic cigarettes currently mentions that they contain tobacco specific nitrosamines. Would it be OR to change that to something along these lines:
Thanks.-- FergusM1970 Let's play Freckles 00:05, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Do we have a recent high quality secondary source that makes these comparisons? If not that agree it is synth Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 11:20, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.
User:Geo Swan has a subpage in his userspace called Wittes breakdown, which he claimed here "contained information which could be plugged into restored articles on any captive" and that it was a reliable secondary source because it was a summary of a 99-page academic paper. Conversely, I believe this is synthesis. Looking at the page, it is full of elisions. Therefore, the summaries there are Geo Swan's, not the paper's. One is therefore relying not on the source, but on Geo Swan's interpretation of it. This is tagged as a rough notes page, but it's not being used as such given the assertions made. IMO, this is not appropriate material for userspace, but I've decided to bring it here for further opinion. MSJapan ( talk) 14:00, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
|
I am in a disagreement with what constitutes "OR" with @ Folken de Fanel: who considers any statement I make to be OR or NPOV despite multiple references existing for the material. He shuffles around the information of the incomplete section and labels the most basic summarizations as such, despite the contrary. Specifically, he removed the summerization, "Neon Genesis Evangelion's overt religious themes run counter to Tsurumaki's dismissal and Anno's "self-interpretation" values. Opposition to these comments exist in the fan and academic communities." The immediate following line is, "Broderick writes, "Anno's project is a postmodernist retelling of the Genesis myth, as his series title implies—Neon Genesis Evangelion. It is a new myth of origin, complete with its own deluge, Armageddon, apocalypse and transcendence." [11] He says Broderick doesn't contradict Tsurumaki, whose one time dismissal of a Christian meaning is being used over the writer and directors decades long "its like an onion" comments on the meaning of the show. In order to respond, only on the talk page, I pointed out an essay by Duan that explains several theories about Tsurumaki's comment. Such comments are fairly simple, but I believe the wording is the big issue here, Okada's comment, "Mr. Anno ("Evangelion") apparently never read the Bible, despite the heavy Christian symbology of his work; he just (according to Mr. Okada) picked out a few interesting technical terms. Likewise, the anime creation staff might open a book on psychology and, rather than read it thoroughly, simply go through it picking out "great technical terms" to use in the anime!" is more candid and not a business backed call like Tsurumaki's comment. While Tsurumaki is often intentionally whimsical or downright misleading in numerous contexts, say FLCL, it is Okada which presents a more balanced and specific view.
These views must be weighed against the much later release of the comments. Anno's comments before suggested a grand theme, Tsurumaki calmed Christian symbolism, Okada acknowledged the symbols and uses them as "great technical terms". In terms of "truth", its Anno, Okada, Tsurumaki (of the three (but not all) mentions), because of the nature and circumstances surrounding the development and view and environment of the comment. This is why Broderick's comment about the theme of Evangelion eviscerates Tsurumaki's comment. The Evaneglion Chronicle does so as well. The original Evangelion Proposal, made a full 2 years before the show contains religious themes, going so far as to name the enemies and their appearances and cite them from the Angels of the Old Testament. Duan's essay follows the typical, "as a whole it is clearly intentional" theme, because the pieces are too interconnected to be a passive reference and is deeply engrained into the show's theme.
Depending on interpretations - something any Wikipedia editor should weigh during writing - the whole situation should be looked at objectively. A vast academic body of work exists on the show, numerous lenses are used to analyze it, but over and over again the religious themes are so present and overt that it becomes impossible to consider it a "passive" creation. Before the show began the theme of creation was proposed, and are "replete" with such symbolism. Broderick concludes, "Regardless of creator Anno's stated intentions and artistic agenda, Neon Genesis Evangelion achieves what all major apocalyptic works invoke whether they be narrative, myth, prophecy, crusade or therapy—namely, a vision of society radically transformed from one of chaotic and imminent demise towards the liberation from oppression of an elect into a new realm of perpetual peace and harmony." This is confusing... because Anno is secretive and says that the "true" interpretations will ever be provided, essentially stating to each his own. Academics quite clearly see connections to the Book of Genesis, and Christian symbolism - that is undisputed. The sheer wealth of such sources and deep details uncover, rather plainly if I might add, that Tsurumaki's dismissal is wrong and Okada's "great terms" is half-wrong.
I'll conclude why, using Broderick, Okada is wrong, but I have alluded to it before. The existence of the materials, like the Proposal are heavy evidence of planning. It took many years to even get the "first race" material to be circulated that was originally proposed a full two years before the show. The 第一始祖民族、Dai'ichi Shiso Minzoku is the First Ancestral Race, first covered in the NGE 2 video game is revealed in the "classified information" and was done through Anno's work. This information, while of some canon issues, is a great supplemental work - and was covered in the original proposal for NGE and never covered in the show, but the mythos contains several references. Here is where the information diverges, "They were the first extraterrestrial intelligence. The humanoid species, referred to as the First Ancestral Race, started to spread Seeds of Life throughout the Milky Way Galaxy. As of yet, we do not know their motives or for what they were aiming. It is becoming evident that multiple Seeds were disseminated. Eventually, by force of sheer bad luck, two accidentally landed on the same planet: Adam of the White Moon, and Lilith of the Black Moon." and "Within a carrier known as a "Moon", the First Ancestral Race fabricated a perfect cavity (also referred to as a "Moon"), at which point the Seed, or "Progenitor Entity", would be placed inside and sent out into space. That was their technology, and, from the perspective of Angels, humans, and others, they might be called gods." Now that's one aspect. More on the spear, "It is a spear which has a will and is a type of lifeform capable of moving by itself. This is an item close to a god and thus able to put a Seed of Life (Progenitor Entity), who holds the power of eternal life, into suspended animation, and this is the reason why the Seed of Life (Progenitor Entity) does not reach god-status. The First Ancestral Race prepared this as a counter- measure in the event that a Seed of Life (Progenitor Entity) did not follow their own goals. It is thought that a Spear acting as Lilith's counterpart was separated from it by the shock at the time of First Impact. This Spear has yet to be found. There is a chance that it may have been destroyed." and on the Angels/Adam, "Two Seeds of Life are not needed on one planet, and, therefore, one of them is excluded. As recorded in the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls, Adam-based life took part in a contest of survival, putting the stakes on their own existence. Some of them were trying to access Lilith and reset all life, some of them had nothing in mind, and some were trying to recover their progenitor Adam. The Angels — Adam-based life — became active under their respective tactics for survival and success."
Lastly, the Instrumentality, "The Human Instrumentality Project is a plan aimed at divinity. The Evas are absolutely essential to Seele, for they are the sole key that can open the Path to God. This is because they were copied from Adam, the being nearest to a god.Still, there is something humanity lacks. Seele believed they had through Eva what was necessary to fill-in that which was missing; to make man into a God, or at least into an eternal existence. Completing an incomplete humanity, and opening up the Path to God, is Seele's doctrine. What would happen if people were gathered into something of a god? Seele believed we would become God himself. While the Angels were being engaged in battle, people were also making and advancing the plan for the path that leads to divinity. The first step is the completion of Eva — the body of a god and throne of a soul — via the installation of an S² Engine. The interfusion of souls follows. Afterward, our final natural enemy, the Spear of Longinus security device, is annihilated. Thus, that which is nearly divine, or perhaps a god in and of itself, is brought to completion, and, with the Spear gone, cannot be destroyed by anyone. Seele's intention for this man-made god is to guide the elite (themselves) to state near that of God's." And for one additional message (later used in Tengen toppa, "The S² Engine Theory was advocated by Dr. Katsuragi. As the world is formed with spirals, the engine acquires energy from its shape, which is the same as DNA. From here, the S² Engine was being envisioned as an energy source that would attempt to procure helical energy — in other words, an inexhaustible supply. (The Engine is) The Fruit of Life. This is the one thing that an Eva requires in order to gain an existence equal to that of Adam."
If this is not absolutely clear, than perhaps with the title, "Gospel of a New Century" - it should be. Tsurumaki's only comment of relevance is, "There are a lot of giant robot shows in Japan, and we did want our story to have a religious theme to help distinguish us. ... There is no actual Christian meaning to the show, we just thought the visual symbols of Christianity look cool." And the religious themes (not the meaning) are clear and trying to say there was no religious theme is just wrong. The religious meaning is disputed, but this depends on your definition of meaning, but as Broderick notes a retelling of Genesis, clearly the impression exists and is well supported. Broderick is not my "be all" source, its only one of them... Sorry for the complex issue! ChrisGualtieri ( talk) 13:15, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
The future of the modern Commonwealth
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
There is a dispute about how to interpret the statement by Alex Salmond, the First Minister of Scotland and leader of the Scottish National Party. Salmond said an independent Scotland "would still share a monarchy with the rest of the UK just as we did for a century before the Parliamentary Union of 1707, and just as 16 other Commonwealth countries do now." Does that mean that an independent Scotland would be a "Commonwealth Realm?"
Current "Commonwealth Realms" include the United Kingdom and former colonies, now members of the Commonwealth, that have retained the Queen as their head of state. They agree to maintain a similar succession law and style and titles.
James VI, King of Scots, became James I, King of England in 1607, and in 1707 the crowns were merged as the crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Scots have long protested the 1701 Act of Settlement, which barred the Stuart claimants, and the numbering system, even demanding that the current Queen be known as "Elizabeth I" in Scotland.
I do not know if the monarchy of Scotland would be considered a restoration of the Scottish monarchy or a continuation of the British monarchy or whether any of these factors would determine whether the Commonwealth would consider Scotland a Commonwealth Realm, or whether Scotland would accept the description. Salmon does not even say in the source whether Scotland would continue in the Commonwealth.
It seems to me that unless there is a source saying Scotland would become a Commonwealth Realm, it is OR to say it would.
TFD ( talk) 17:52, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Of course, TFD didn't quote what the article Commonwealth realm actually says: "The following year, Portia Simpson-Miller, the Prime Minister of Jamaica, spoke of a desire to make that country a republic, while Alex Salmond, the First Minister of Scotland and leader of the Scottish National Party (which favours Scottish independence) stated his intention for an independent Scotland to be a Commonwealth realm." Note that nowhere is it stated Scotland will or would be a Commonwealth realm. -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 18:26, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
He also says "just as [Scotland] did for a century before the Parliamentary Union of 1707." Which arrangement is he more likely to follow - Scotland or the Commonwealth Realms? TFD ( talk) 19:35, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
Is there a source for "crowns were merged" (TFD above)? No one, not the Queen or any one else, can "know if the monarchy of Scotland would be considered a restoration of the Scottish monarchy or a continuation of the British monarchy... " per TFD above. How can such speculation determine the content of the article? It is idle and pointless. Whatever OR may be, it is certain that if Salmond is to be mentioned in the article, his words should not be paraphrased but quoted, in main text or footnote, per AndyTG above. An attempt to paraphrase would be equally idle and pointless. Why is it there anyway? To promote his soapbox? Qexigator ( talk) 18:36, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Editors are invited to participate at Talk:LGBT rights under international law#Duplicated text on countries' obligations under international law, a Request for Comments concerning material on countries' obligations under international law to protect LGBT rights. One of the main issues for discussion is whether the material in question constitutes original research. — Psychonaut ( talk) 12:06, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
For some reason a discussion over a particular forum was initiated at Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources#Skyscrapercity.com online forum which has grown into a general discussion about forums as sources. There's a request for comment and it seems to me that others here will probably be interested and may have missed it. Dougweller ( talk) 19:05, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
User:Laval has purged a significant amount of properly cited biographical content from the new Tony Ortega BLP article less than 12 hours after I posted it claiming that it was original research amongst other things. Although I am a noob editor, I find those edits troubling and request somebody more knowledgeable than I am to review the version history to see anything that was stripped away can be restored. I spent several weeks developing that article offline in order to replace the stub the user originally posted that I thought was questionable in the context of lacking serious biographical material when there was so much readily available. Additionally, some of edits removed entire sections (Eg. Recognition that listed industry awards and honors the subject received) that I had carefully drafted based on seeing the same sort of content on other articles for seasoned journalists with comparable history. Thus I'm quite perplexed as to why it was removed in whole. Thanks in advance for your assistance. Hapshepsuit ( talk) 14:03, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
There is a request for comments (RfC) that may be of interest. The RfC is at
At issue is whether we should delete or keep the following text in the Lavabit article:
There have been concerns expressed as to whether the above violates our no original research policy. Your input on this question would be very much welcome. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 04:56, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
A certain user is continually reposting original research and racist spam. The "prolegomenon" (by itself an un-encyclopaedic phrase) to the article "Spengler's Civilization Model" ( Spengler's civilization model) is clearly racist as well as unrelated to the subject matter. It is 100% original research.
Every time I tried to add the OR tag the same user deletes it. I tried deleting the Prolegomenon but he keeps reposting what is essentially a speculative essay filled with cliches, stereotypes and generalizations unrelated to the subject whatsoever. Using the Talk Page did not help at all, since the user just ignored what I wrote.
I have currently bolded certain parts of the Prolegomenon which are especially obvious in their offensiveness - however, the WHOLE THING needs to go, it is pure speculation and original research and unverifiable and therefore un-encyclopaedic content. It even makes predictions about the future ("In the end of 2014 AD, the synergy of new debt will decrease to zero, at which moment the world will undergo an electrical breakdown—an instantaneous tunnelling to a more negative energy state.")Ben Ammi, Ben Ammi ( talk) 21:09, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Examples of the madness:
As it stands, the Prolegomenon to this article even claims to prophesy the future, hardly an encyclopaedic thing to do: "In the end of 2014 AD, the synergy of new debt will decrease to zero, at which moment the world will undergo an electrical breakdown—an instantaneous tunnelling to a more negative energy state."
So is this a fact or not? If so, I'd like some verification and sources - furthermore I'd like sources for all these claims, that Wikipedia is currently making to the world in its Prolegomenon section to Spengler's Civilization Model:
"Women like pink; Mongoloid flags (Japan, China, Vietnam) are red; sunrise (the spring of the day) is red"
"Men like blue; the Jewish flag is blue; midnight (the winter of the day) is blue ("No brown after six")"
"The redshiftedness of the Mongoloids and the blueshiftedness of the Jews imply that they are the broad Epimethean and narrow Promethean parts of the same funnel-shaped gravity well:"
"Being such blueshifted fallen angels, men are Promethean (future-minded, goal-oriented) mentally and Mephistophelean (spaghettified, serpentine, penile) corporeally."
"Cerebrotonia is the predominance of nervous tissue, which is "cosmopolitan"—interconnected encapsulated groups (ganglia) of neurons ("Jewish communities") reside in all organs ("countries") and orchestrate them into a single organism"
"Infantile (feminine, rural, Mongoloid) brain: Predominance of gray matter (the neuronal cell bodies and their dendrites, the short protrusions that communicate with immediately neighbouring neurons in the brain)."
"Adult (masculine, urban, Jewish) brain: Predominance of white matter (the axons that reach out from neurons to more distant regions of the brain; since an axon is insulated with myelin, it is "Aspergian"—alienated from its immediate surroundings)."''
Are all these crazy claims actually verifiable facts ? I doubt it. But this guy keeps reposting this stuff again and again, spamming Wikipedia and making a mockery of the "online encyclopedia."
Ben Ammi Ben Ammi ( talk) 14:42, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
The section The White Queen (TV series)#Historical Inaccuracies is 100% WP:SYN. I pointed this out on the talk page, but to no avail. As an IP editor I have no weight, so if there is a more experienced editor here who wants to step in, that might be helpful. 202.81.243.196 ( talk) 12:06, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
I am having a dispute with NinjaRobotPirate about the above-mentioned article. He appears determined to remove most the article as it stood before two days or so ago, as "unsourced". His editing policy is that one edits best those articles to which one is indifferent (to paraphrase from his talkpage). I accept that he is acting is good faith, as he may see fit, but I strenuously disagree with his actions.
Also, by being indifferent to material one is editing one is less likely to be familiar with it, and, even more importantly, less invested in it. I do not understand what has to be done to "source" this material, almost all of which, directly dovetails with the lengthy, spoilers-and-all, synopses of all these mystery novels, right here on Wikipedia. Where I am supposed to find paperbacks to cite page numbers?? Those (Christie) novels which were written after ISBNs came into existence have them on their article pages. I admit I am fond of the article in question, as a long time Christie aficionado, and to see it whittled down from a redwood to a bonsai is painful and, I believe, unnecessary.
Yours, Quis separabit? 23:38, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
I have been trying to clean up Interac_(Japan) for some time now and there has recently been a revert and edit of my previous edits. I request help with this page. Taurus669 ( talk) 02:47, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
This page is full of original research related to the Union presence section and below.
In particular, the revert and edit made by Mah2012 on 23 August 2013 and by 202.241.4.55 on 30 August 2013 seem to be full of self-published materials by the same union(s) that these editors are including.
The edit on 30 August 2013 called "Operation Slingshot" appears to be 100% original research. Taurus669 ( talk) 02:45, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
On August 28, 2013, a large paragraph was added to Ventura,_California#Points_of_interest about the Westside Neighborhood that has no citations and appears to be original research.
Could an editor provide further comments since the entire section needs work as does much of the page? This paragraph and others are beginning to describe neighborhoods rather than Points of Interest. The rest of the Points of Interest just seem to be random sentences. There is also a list of Notable locations with the distinctive feature that many of the places are not "worthy of notice" and do not include links. If one uses the WikiProject_Cities/US_Guideline, where would information about notable landmarks and locations go? On a separate page? -- Fettlemap ( talk) 21:52, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
I've never done one of these before. Sorry. Lightbreather ( talk) 20:49, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article currently titled Federal Assault Weapons Ban was created in January 2003 as "Assault weapons ban". After that it was redirected/renamed five times (as far as I can tell) until October 2006, when it was capitalized, without discussion that I can find. Why this decision was made and why it has stayed under the radar for so long is a mystery. A preponderence of reliable, verifiable sources use the term "federal assault weapons ban" in sentence case in running text. Many use it lowercase in titles and headers, too. I have found no evidence that the WP:TITLE policy and the WP:NCCAPS guideline should be an exception for this article. Ignoring widely-used conventions for this article in Wikipedia reflects poorly on its credibility.
I haven't mastered WP coding, so pardon me if I format these links clumsily, but here are some:
I think this article would be improved by restoring its title to sentence case format. Based on the sources, to use title case seems
WP:OR.
-- Lightbreather ( talk) 20:04, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
A user has alleged that the following wikitext on the genesis and characteristics of the Somali Sign Language (SSL) is inconsistent with the sources presented. As discussed here, much of the material is drawn from The beginning and growth of a new language - Somali Sign Language by Doreen E. Woodford of the Deaf Africa Fund [43]:
Hatnoted wikitext |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
Please point out which if any of the hatnoted sentences above are problematic, and how to go about fixing that phrase(s). Middayexpress ( talk) 14:52, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
Please see the debate at Talk:European English. An editor is insistent that the concept exists, but I can find no verifiable references that support the assertion. The editor has added a substantial amount of unreferenced material to the article, all of which appears to be OR. I won't revert again - I had originally set the page as a redirect to British English some time ago. Please have a look, thanks. The Roman Candle ( talk) 18:08, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
See Talk:Abraham - perhaps we need a source saying specifically that the dispute exists, but I don't see the statement as OR. (Nor do I think we need a 'who' tag when the sources are in the article. Dougweller ( talk) 18:37, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
"Just citing sources pointing to individual's works, individials that happen to disagree with the historicity of the biblical account (biblical in this case, but the WP policy involved applies to anything out there) is not enough. Wikipedia is a tertiary source of information and, per WP:RS, we must cite sources that -actually- support added text exactly. Adding citations - as it is the case here - of dissenters is not sufficient (or even relevant). The only valid citations are those that -actually- lend support to the claim in question. That is, someone needs to find a citation that actually says something like "Academics debate the historicity of the biblical account of Abraham's life." Sources from dissenters who disagree with the biblical account - One reliable source or a million reliable sources - are not enough. This is explained in WP:OR and WP:SYN. A WP editor is not allowed to draw conclusions. There are sources FROM dissenters and there are sources from others reporting ABOUT such dissenters. The only valid sources here would be the second type. There is an enormous difference between the two."
This concerns a correction I made to the the article Six Day War. There are 2 photos in the article that make statements to the effect of they containing "Israeli children" when the photos also contain adult men and women (which I believe the average person will safely assume the adults there to be Israelies as well). As such, I made THIS edit correction, with an explanatory summary statement and left a message in the article's talk page HERE as well. My edit was reverted HERE by User:Irondome with the comment "Thats called OR. And you spelled "Israeli" incorrectly" (I don't really care how he wants to spell Israeli; that's not what I am objecting to here). The comment the editor left at the Talk Page can be seen HERE. And the 2 photos in question with their current (and objectionable) captions are these:
<<< "Israeli women and children in a bomb shelter at Kfar Maimon near the Egyptian border"
The above, I maintain, should read "Israelis in a bomb shelter at Kfar Maimon near the Egyptian border" (there is also an adult man in this photo)
<<< "Israeli children in a bomb shelter at Kibbutz Dan during the war."
The above, in my opinion, should read "Israelis in a bomb shelter at Kibbutz Dan during the war." (there are in fact at least 5 adults in this photo)
Now, I am perfectly aware the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a touchy issue for many. However, I bring no agenda here (as the reverting editor might be assuming) as I am neither Israeli nor Arab nor Palentinian nor Jew, nor from any other nation that supports either side. The one agenda I bring here is the Wikipedia agenda: WP:COMMON SENSE. So I ask, (1) did I err in correcting what appears to be an error clearer than the noonday sun, and (2) is it WP:OR (and how is it WP:OR?) to have made the change as the other editor has claimed? Mercy11 ( talk) 19:48, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Irondome's position in this dispute defies common sense. If the image has an adult in it, plainly visible, I see nothing wrong with pointing that out in the caption. Someguy1221 ( talk) 02:14, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Irondome, I don't know where you are coming from, but no matter how much I can AGF, your arguments are close to trolling. The one who should drop the stick is you. It is obvious that saying women and children in a picture that has women,children and male adults not only is inaccurate, but it is also subtle emotional POV. Calling it An attempt to rewrite the history of the photos and their context
is even weirder. If the problem is "Israelis" vs "kibbutz volunteers" or whatever, let's just write "People in a bomb shelter...": singling out women,children and men is after all useless and this way we avoid pigeonholing them as civilians/Israelis/whatever. --
cyclopia
speak! 11:27, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
One might suspect a POV-pushing issue here from the fact that almost all the images in the article except maps are of Israelis, with an emphasis on Israeli civilians. According to the image description page, the image "Israeli women and children in a bomb shelter" is originally "התושבים במקלט במלחמת ששת הימים". My Hebrew ain't great, but I believe התושבים means "residents" not "women and children". There is also extra Hebrew text about women, children and yeshiva students, but it comes from a pikiwiki page and I don't know why that is a reliable source. The propagandistic nature of the images and their description in their Israeli sources is obvious. The rules about OR are not the only applicable rules; NPOV is also highly relevant. Just as we neutralize the language of polemic sources when we summarise them, we should neutralize image descriptions. Putting my wikilawyering hat on: Blueboar is usually right but in this case I think it is not true that strict interpretation of WP:NOR requires us to use the image description of the source. The point is that the source doesn't contain only the description, it also contains the image. Both the image and its description are information provided by the source and our task is to summarize all this information without adding information that is not presented by the source. The source containing the image with the man is providing the information that there was a man there and it is not OR to say so. Zero talk 10:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
Just a side note... If the original source for a photo (a book, newspaper, museum archive, etc.) has a caption accompanying the photo, it is not OR to repeat that caption in Wikipedia... but, if we do so we need to cite where the caption's text came from. And, if that original caption is biased or controversial, then we should also directly link the caption to the source through attribution in our caption. For example: saying something like: ... "This photograph (from the archives of the Luxembourg Museum of Belgian War Atrocities) is captioned: Innocent Luxembourger women and children cowering in a bomb shelter during the evil Belgian mortar attacks. <cite museum archives>" would pass WP:OR, WP:NPOV and WP:V. While clearly biased, such an attributed caption would indicate that the bias is that of the museum, and not our article. Blueboar ( talk) 12:08, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
it is not up to us to change the caption to be "neutral" or be less sympathetic to Israelis- Yes, it is. We can use a photo and add our own caption -indeed, that's what we almost always do on WP. And that is what it should be done here. A photo is a thing, the caption is another thing, we are not required (AFAIK) to use them together. And if we were to use the original caption, it should be clearly put between quotes and indicated as such, e.g. Original caption: "..." -- cyclopia speak! 16:07, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
This page is an archive. Do not edit the contents of this page. Please direct any additional comments to the current main page. |
This "place" doesn't even exist, and there is no proper name attached to it, except by those who have fabricated this as a spinoff of Quadripoint (which also is OR and should be reviewed as such and was formerly title "Four Corners"). There's not even a true fourway boundary point here, the boundaries don't meet up at a "crossroads". Lots of "reaching" and over-justifying here, buried under verbiage which makes this sound legitimate, and continued use of the term Four Corners in this article and in Quadripoint to retrench the use of that term as if anyone used it. There is no place called "Four Corners" in Canada, certainly not capitalized as if it were a proper name and legitimate/real concept. Wikipedia is not for trivia, nor for documenting the assemblage of trivia as a hobby. Skookum1 ( talk) 07:27, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
An editor at Taj Mahal is adding material which, s/he claims, represents a "feminist" point of view on the monument. It is difficult to summarise the issue here, as the editor is bringing in several sources to support a fairly obscure journalistic article, which raises serparate questions of WP:NOTE and WP:RS. My concern is with the use of the more legitimate sources is WP:SYN, that they are being used to advance an argument about an alleged feminist position which the sources themselves are not making. The editor writes:
Begley [Wayne E. Begley, ‘The Myth of the Taj Mahal'] goes on to quote many authentic sources to underline how Shahjahan's monument was 'intended to symbolise his glory and not only his devotion'. (p. 10) He says that monument 'served as a symbol, as it were of imperial destiny....a tangible manifestation of his magnificent obsession with his own greatness'. (ibid). That Taj Mahal has served as an image to advance the male notions of power is a logical inference of this argument. That non-notable journalistic article also draws upon many such studies to underline how Taj is not just a monument of love--but a manifestation of a male-cum-royal grandeur.
Of course I have no objection to Begley's discussion of the dynastic symbolism of the monument. My concern is that this is then used to make statements about "male power" (though the commission of a grand monument by the previous Shah's widow is not used to make claims about "female" power) Paul B ( talk) 16:14, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Also: For WP: Note and WP:RS, also see ‘exceptions’ stating “If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it.” For WP: SYN, please read full articles on the blog as mentioned and Begley’s article too.
The present discussion should also bear in mind this guideline of Wikipedia: “Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view. NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. This policy is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it.”
Saramohanpur1940 Saramohanpur1940 ( talk) 17:31, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Anyone want to take a crack at Semantic infiltration? It was created by an obvious sockpuppet and I've already removed some of the most unsuitable content, but there still appears to be a good deal of OR and SPS. If you think it just ought to be TNT'd that's cool too, I thought I'd just bring it here first. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 19:39, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
The creator of the Lighthouse Pub article has used his own blog [1] as a source and claims to be a former journalist [2]. If he can provide examples of his past work in the relevant field from reliable sources, could his blog be considered a self-published expert source, therefore passing the WP:NOR requirement? -- Drm310 ( talk) 19:30, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
I am writing to ask whether, with your help and input, it might be possible to find an acceptable way of summarizing a few points made by Robert Gayre in his book (and maybe his articles) explaining why he favours the 'Semitic' theory for the origin of the ancient Zimbabwean Civilization. Some Wikipedia readers are undoubtedly curious and interested to learn what the arguments are - both for and against the 'Semitic' theory (and indeed the 'Shona' theory, too).
In the 'Lemba' section of the Wikipedia 'Great Zimbabwe' page, the old summary which was there until 4th May, was deemed to contain 'Original Research', and therefore inappropriate for Wikipedia.
OK, I won't argue with that - but I am wondering if there might be a way of compromising - by simply extracting the relevant points from Gayre's book - and then presenting them - without discussing how they might relate to other people's findings. Could we then regard such a text, as not comprising 'Original Research'?
If so, this is how it might look:
- - - - - - - - - - -
1. The Lemba were esteemed by neighbouring tribes as exceptionally skilled miners and metal workers; (these were distinctive features of the Zimbabwean Civilization).
2. The stone phallic symbols discovered in some of the ancient ruins, were models of circumcised male organs; (that is significant because surrounding tribes regarded the Lemba as the masters and originators of the art of circumcision).
3. The Lemba buried their dead in an extended rather than a crouched position, (i.e., they chose the same style as that found in certain Zimbabwean graves which contained gold jewellery).
4. The old Lemba language was a dialect of Karanga (which is the language spoken today in the area around Great Zimbabwe).
Thus, Gayre argues that the South African Lemba are probably descended from members of the original community who fled southwards when Great Zimbabwe was captured by non-Semites.
- - - - - - - - - - -
It goes without saying that all suggestions for modification, will be well received.
Dougweller also asked me to mention that we have been discussing this topic at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Great_Zimbabwe
With thanks in anticipation, DLMcN ( talk) 21:00, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
User 4WhatMakesSense ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is adding idiosyncratic theories, or deleting properly sourced text, at multiple articles and "supporting" these by near-incomprehensible arguments. Examples include Book of the Dead [3] [4], Aramaic language [5] [6], Mesha Stele [7] [8] [9]. Zero talk 14:04, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
4WhatMakesSense has been blocked for disruptive editing. Zero talk 02:28, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
I have started a Rfc on Ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka which is relevant to this noticeboard - "Does this article comply with Wikipedia's core content policies: neutral point of view, verifiability and no original research?" Please feel free to comment here. Thank you.-- obi2canibe talk contr 19:15, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
Just after some generic advice, though I may bring up the exact discussion in question if discussion continues. Is a diagram of a highway shield considered to be original research if it is copied from, or based upon, photos of real-world installations. WP:NOR would seem to suggest that most original images arent considered original research, so long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments. I would assume a highway shield which marks a roadway would not do either (and that it would affect things more like controversial graphs and diagrams which portray complex information in a visual form). Do others beleive I am correct in this regard? It seems pretty clear cut to me, or am I misreading the policy? Is there any circumstance where a highway shield diagram outside in a non-disputed territory could be claimed to be OR? -- Nbound ( talk) 14:00, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
This looks to me like a primary source: [14]
Another editor is claiming it is a secondary source, evidently because the document is found on the WSJ's website. [15] It appears that he's looking at the date on the first page (May 14, 2013) and using that information to assert that the document became available to the public on that day. While that may well be correct, in my view, he is doing original research. Federales ( talk) 04:46, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
I agree. You're still not understanding what I wrote. You're missing my point.
The Wikipedia article was claiming that the "full report" (the TIGTA) was issued on May 15th. That claim may be true, or that may be incorrect.
But the source cited for that claim in the Wikipedia article is only a PDF copy of the actual TIGTA report -- at the Wall Street Journal web site. You're getting hung up on my reference to the Wall Street Journal as being a secondary source. The Wall Street Journal IS a secondary source, when it comes to describing what is in the TIGTA report. By contrast, the TIGTA report itself is a primary source when it comes to describing what is in the TIGTA report.
The Wikipedia article was falsely claiming that either the Wall Street Journal web site, or the TIGTA report itself, or both, are saying that the full report was issued on May 15th. That is false. The Wall Street Journal web site does not say that, and the TIGTA report does not say that.
It's not a question of whether the source -- the linked material -- is "primary" or "secondary." It doesn't matter whether you consider the link in the article to be a link to the Wall Street Journal (which would be a secondary source), or to the TIGTA report (which would be a primary source). Either way, a statement in a Wikipedia article must be supported by the sourced material. The statements in the source material must stand for the proposition in the Wikipedia article. In this case, the statement that the full report was released on May 15th is not supported. Famspear ( talk) 05:47, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
OK, I made this change in the article. Thanks, Federales, it's your baby now, if you feel it needs more changes. I gotta get to bed. Yours, Famspear ( talk) 06:26, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
I have started an RFC that is relavent to WP:ORN for the background section of Rape and pregnancy controversies in United States elections, 2012. Please comment on this RFC, here. Casprings ( talk) 16:29, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm curious as to whether the following scenario associated with the page List of Internal Revenue Service political profiling controversies implicates WP:NOR.
The claim "[t]hree out of four respondents felt entitled to deceive or lie when testifying before a congressional committee" appears in the article under a subheading entitled IRS culture. It is sourced primarily to a survey of IRS managers and executives. It's sourced secondarily to an opinion piece. However, the primary source does not actually include the cited claim, and the opinion piece that's the secondary source for the claim is just one of numerous opinion pieces that contains the claim.
Is it OR to remove the claim? I don't believe it would be, for a couple of reasons.
1. My understanding of OR is that it requires addition to an article, whereas removal of an unsupported claim involves subtraction. It seems counter to the notion of verifiability that, when a primary source is cited for a particular claim, that source should not be consulted to determine whether or not it actually says what it is being cited for. This seems like an exercise of verification rather than a violation of WP:NOR.
2. Although there are secondary sources for the claim, the only such sources are opinion pieces. Regardless of the number of such pieces that make the same claim, relying on opinion sources for a factual claim seems problematic enough that consulting the primary source is warranted. And, again, the point is not to analyze and distill the primary source; it's to determine whether the claim appears at all in the primary source.
There's further discussion of this at the article's talk page, with User:Federales being the primary (and I believe only) proponent of the notion that removing the claim is impermissible under WP:NOR. So am I just wrong about the meaning of OR? Is it acceptable (or even mandatory) to leave a verifiably false claim in an article just because secondary sources of dubious reliability make that claim? Dyrnych ( talk) 04:28, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia; but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.[4] Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so. Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them. Do not add unsourced material from your personal experience, because that would make Wikipedia a primary source of that material. Use extra caution when handling primary sources about living people; see WP:BLPPRIMARY, which is policy.
What part of "any", as in "any interpretation", are you having trouble with? You're trying to cherry-pick the policy to make it say what you wish it said, but is clearly says "Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself". Isn't that pretty clear? Do not interpret. Do not evaluate.
And you're also misrepresenting the secondary source. Bovard (WSJ) doesn't claim the survey makes that statement directly, he is interpreting the survey to mean what he says about it. For you, as a Wikipedia editor, to go back to the primary source and second-guess Bovard is original research, which is explained succinctly in the verbiage that is bolded. It really isn't that complicated, is it? Federales ( talk) 06:00, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
I've already deleted a series of photos and maps here which, even without their captions, but simply by inclusion, suggested conclusions about this location mentioned in the sagas. There's more, including leading questions as captions on the remaining photos and lots of speculation in the content. There's probably more of this same kind of thing on Helluland and Markland and related articles, this one shocked me at how overtly original research all of it is. Skookum1 ( talk) 07:25, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
Apologies for bringing others into a painful discussion that we seem to be unable to resolve for ourselves. This noticeboard has been pointed to by a party to one of the two widely divergent opinions, and there seems to be no way forward without listing the matter here. Thanks for considering this. The discussion is at Talk:Artemisia absinthium#WP:MEDRS used to suppress all mention of ongoing research. Sminthopsis84 ( talk) 17:36, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
In the article Outer space an editor at 15.211.201.82 noted [17] the phrase "Observations now prove that it also contains dark matter and dark energy" is an "Extraordinarily claim despite unsettled science". I did a cleanup changing "Observations now prove" to "Observations indicate it may also contain" based on dark matter and dark energy being "hypothetical"( diff) (as stated in their WP articles). Another editor basically reverted the edit ( diff) claiming "Nothing extraordinary at all about the claim that outer space contains dark matter and dark energy; it's the overwhelming consensus of astronomers based on the observations." The sources being used say "implying" and "evidence for" and "Theorists still don't know what the correct explanation is"... so do not seem to support "proven" or "are the dominant components of space" (tried pointing out that the sources being cited do not contain a definitive statement but the editor kept reverting diff diff). The editor's main premiss seems to be [18] "its ok to boil down theoretical work to "facts" since its a boiled down lead summary and astronomer A and B are pretty sure it exist so it can be a presented as a fact" (I would also note the article body presents dark matter and dark energy as fact). To me "astronomer A being pretty sure" and "astronomer B being pretty sure" should not be joined together to imply a conclusion C "prove" or "are" or "90% of the mass is in an unknown form" or "is the dominant component of space" per WP:SYNTH. Also seems obvious to me theoretical work should not be presented as "fact" in any part of Wikipedia. Same editor has expressed these opinions before per: Way/Archive 3 (section Supermassive black holes). Fountains of Bryn Mawr ( talk) 23:01, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
There is some disagreement over the WP:OR policy as it applies to men's rights movement (MRM). Two editors argue that we should use sources that don't deal with the topic of the article, i.e., the men's rights movement. To give you one example: An editor added this section about custodial sentencing. The source – a parliamentary debate and speech by Philip Davies – doesn't say anything about the MRM or any of its representatives. There is also no indication that Davies is a men's rights activists or someone who speaks for the MRM. So there is no connection. The editor who added the section argues that it "fits directly under mens rights" (I assume he meant "men's rights movement") and that sources need not say anything or make the connection to the men's rights movement. Similarly, another editor argued that it isn't against the WP:OR policy to use generic statistics on alimony and divorce from sources that do not discuss the MRM ( "MRM makes claims about divorce. Neutral divorce statistics are brought in.")
Can uninvolved editors clarify if it is or is not a violation of WP:OR and WP:Synth to add statistics from sources that say nothing about the topic of the article (examples of stats and conent copied from other articles [19] [20] [21])? For instance, men's rights activists make claims about alimony, rape, dowry laws and a variety of other issues. Is it okay to add alimony, rape and dowry death statistics from sources that don't deal with the men's righs movement at all and do not make that connection? Can we just transfer the statistics from False accusation of rape, alimony and dowry death etc. to Men's_rights_movement#Rape, Men's_rights_movement#Divorce, and Men's_rights_movement#Dowry laws? -- Sonicyouth86 ( talk) 20:04, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Hello, I'm Surfer43. I have observed the species Gasteracantha cancriformis mating and have uploaded it to commons at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gasteracantha_cancriformis_mating_in_Summer.webm. I want to include it in the article Gasteracantha cancriformis, but doing so would probably require a new section with text sourced from http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/accounts/Gasteracantha_cancriformis/. However information from that page is contradictory to the video(For example, my video disproves that the species has only been observed mating in a labratory, disproves that the species only mates in Winter(I suppose it doesn't if you don't trust the datestamp on it), and generally adds more information about it.) I know information from this video is not from a verifiable, reliable, published source, but it seems ridiculous to write knowingly incorrect information that contradicts the video. I don't know how to get this new finding about the species "published". I am asking for any advice. Thanks, Surfer43 ( talk) 21:57, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
The article on Theistic evolution seems to contain an awful lot of OR and synth based on primary sources. I've removed the worst of the material, lists of adherents and proponents that were either completely unsourced or synth. There is a discussion going on on the talk page. Would appreciate it if more editors would examine the article and weigh in. There is a valid topic here, but the article seems to have become a coatrack article on a vague concept. Thank you. Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 02:48, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
I.e, is it a reasonable summary of the following sources to say the publication
Mormon Studies Review is to be a
review journal?
New editor quoted at publisher's website:
... [It] is to be model[led] in part on Reviews in American History. We’re going to chronicle and assess the field, in other words, not contribute to it in terms of original scholarship. It will be a place where scholars and other interested readers can quickly, conveniently find great minds engaging one another about the current and future state of several fields.
City newspaper's religion reporter:
"At this point, the biggest challenge might be trying to keep up with the variety and volume of scholarship about Mormonism. ... [The journal] will provide an overview and analysis of all the publishing in the field...."
Student newspaper at the university affiliated with the publisher:
[It] is to help fill a void within the ever-growing field of Mormon studies. The Review will include reviews of books, essays and other scholarly publications related to Mormonism and the field’s growth and development. The first issue of the Review is expected to be available this coming winter. .... The executive director of the Maxwell Institue, M. Gerald Bradford, is eager to see the Mormon Studies Review take its place in the field of Mormon studies. ... I expect it will soon become a major voice in tracking and commenting on developments in the growing area of Mormon studies." [22].
altho WP is not an RS, here's a quote from the WP article on review articles
' Review articles are an attempt to summarize the current state of understanding on a topic. They analyze or discuss research previously published by others, rather than reporting new experimental results. They come in the form of systematic reviews and literature reviews and are a form of secondary literature. Systematic reviews determine an objective list of criteria, and find all previously published original experimental papers that meet the criteria. They then compare the results presented in these papers. Literature reviews, by contrast, provide a summary of what the authors believe are the best and most relevant prior publications.
Sources are linked to on talk page.-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 19:38, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Question to the notice board: Can WP term the journal a review journal?-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 17:37, 12 June 2013 (UTC)There have been an explosion of journals covering the field, to the point that one could say there is more quantity than quality. We have seen an increase in quality books, with many more to come. There are conferences throughout the nation (and lately, to a very limited extent, world), and academic chairs and programs cropping up at prestigious universities. [... ...]
That’s where the Neal A. Maxwell Institute comes in. In a (sub)field seemingly so decentralized, the Institute is trying to establish a geographic core. This will primarily be through their new journal, The Mormon Studies Review. Aimed, in part, to be a Mormon version of Books and Culture, the annual journal will offer book reviews, review essays, and discipline, methodology, and topical articles that assess recent trends in the many different disciplines that live under the eclectic umbrella of “Mormon studies.” Written for educated lay readers as well as experts, it finds one of the last remaining niches left in the Mormon studies world: a review journal that is a mix between New York Review of Books and an interdisciplinary version of Reviews in American History.
[... ...]
I have the privilege to serve as Associate Editor, and I am genuinely thrilled to participate in such an impressive and important project.
whose Wiki article sezonly journal that brings together scholarship from every major field of historical study. The AHR is unparalleled in its efforts to choose articles that are new in content and interpretation and that make a contribution to historical knowledge. The journal also publishes approximately one thousand book reviews per year, surveying and reporting the most important contemporary historical scholarship in the discipline. LINK
- ..... To sniff that the AHR inn't no review journal, while marvelously pedantic-SOUNDING,would I'd imagine be a false - slash - pretty much unsupportable, hence highly controversial, assertion (see, eg, " Literature review"). No?-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 15:30, 13 June 2013 (UTC)Each year approximately 25 articles and review essays and 1,000 book reviews are published.
OK there's a lot of free-standing commentary and the like in that iteration. But there was less in vol 23 - and in any case what is at issue at the moment is the stated purview for its upcoming numbers (say, vol 24-on--unless this vol is be renumbered No. 1).-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 17:27, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
So indeed apparently yes the term "review journal " is used in academia to refer to a journal that publishes more than the occasional review article (despite what the unsourced WPdia article Review journal claims: that such a journal must publish exclusively such articles). Such pedantry has arisen solely on Wikipedia and in my humble opinion WP cannot trump via in-house technical categorization what we may allege to be too loose of definitions used by the preponderance of the sources, esp. when these sources happen to be prestigious academic journals.-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 20:44, 14 June 2013 (UTC)Redgrave [Information Systems] will publish a new review journal in American history and related disciplines which will carry timely, in-depth review-essays of scholarly and non-fiction trade books and of reprints, teaching and research materials. Reviews in American History contains 160 pages per issue....
With respect to the Commonwealth of Nations membership criteria page, a user has added the following paragraph on Somaliland, a secessionist autonomous region in northwestern Somalia:
Somaliland: [1] unilaterally seceded from Somalia claiming succession to British Somaliland, which became part of Somalia shortly after independence in 1960. Its independence remains unrecognised. Delegates were sent to the 2007 Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting, and applied to join the Commonwealth under observer status, although the application has not been granted. [23] [24]
He claims that this paragraph is both neutral and accurate. I've explained to him here that it is obviously neither since a) Somalia did not exist prior to its July 1, 1960 independence day, and b) the former British Somaliland protectorate actually united with Italian Somaliland on that day to form the new nation of Somalia (per the CIA: "Britain withdrew from British Somaliland in 1960 to allow its protectorate to join with Italian Somaliland and form the new nation of Somalia" [25]). British Somaliland was not later incorporated into Somalia as insinuated in that paragraph above. The third problem is the statement that Somaliland's "independence remains unrecognised" since that already implies that the region is an independent country, when it is in fact only a self-declared independent state. "Self-declared independence remains unrecognised" would therefore be a more neutral presentation.
Given this, I proposed the following modification:
Somaliland: internationally recognized as an autonomous region of the Federal Republic of Somalia. [26] Those who call the area the Republic of Somaliland consider it to be the successor state of the former British Somaliland protectorate. Having established its own local government in Somalia in 1991, the region's self-declared independence remains unrecognized by any country or international organization. [27] Delegates from the territory were sent to the 2007 Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting, and applied to join the Commonwealth under observer status, although the application has not been granted. [28] [29]
The user rejected this proposal and instead added two non-neutral links from advocacy websites to support his argument ("Qaran News" & "Somalilandpress"; c.f. [30]). Note that these partisan sources themselves don't claim that British Somaliland "became part of Somalia shortly after independence in 1960" (c.f. [31], [32]). Please advise. Middayexpress ( talk) 15:53, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
There is a great debate going on in Talk:Gun control regarding what certain words mean, with accusations of original research all around. Some feedback from this group would be appreciated. Example debates
To avoid forum shopping or splitting of the discussion/consensus, please respond at Talk:Gun control Gaijin42 ( talk) 16:54, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
There is a ton of unsourced original research under Shared universe#Live-action television universes. 50.151.230.203 ( talk) 12:47, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
There is currently two RfC's concerning the use of sources at Talk:Hookup culture (which is also being considered for deletion here), that would benefit from community participation. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 13:52, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
See Talk:Gates of Alexander. I hope to find time in the next week to do further work on this article to see if the material I reverted can be used without it being original research, but I think that my reversion was correct. The editor I reverted suggests, and may well be right, that there are "two overlapping notions" but his sources don't discuss overlapping notions, which I pointed out. The editor replied (this is only part of the reply so it may not be enough to represent the reply "If we have two sets which contain common elements we have an overlap. The common elements are the names. The two 'notions' (perhaps I should have used the word 'sets' itself; it might have been judged more Wikipedian) are so obviously real, distinct and overlapping that I fail to understand why you have difficulty with this. They would appear to be, as a famous constitution apparently said, 'self evident'!" The editor is very unhappy with me. I'd appreciate other eyes either here or perhaps better yet on the article's talk page. Dougweller ( talk) 18:02, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
According to "The official website of the British Monarchy", a "A Commonwealth Realm is a country which has The Queen as its Monarch. There are 15 Commonwealth Realms in addition to the UK: Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Jamaica, Antigua and Barbuda, Belize, Papua New Guinea, St Christopher and Nevis, St Vincent and the Grenadines, Tuvalu, Barbados, Grenada, Solomon Islands, St Lucia and The Bahamas." [33]
Other than that, there appears to be little written about the concept. Yet there exists a lengthy article extensively sourced to articles that mostly do not even mention the term. The entire article therefore appears to be original research. It also appears to be a fork of Dominion. I would appreciate if other editors comment on it.
TFD ( talk) 15:24, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
User:Anonymous209.6 made a recent on the article Rape and pregnancy controversies in United States elections, 2012. The edit was discussed Talk:Rape_and_pregnancy_controversies_in_United_States_elections,_2012#WP:OR_-_SPECIFICALLY.2C_is_it_WP:OR_to_state_in_WP.27s_voice_that_1980s_WP:FRINGE_theories_that_ONLY_relate_in_any_way_to_ONE_section_.28Todd_Akin.29_also_are_necessary_to_understand_Mourdock.2C_Bartlett.2C_Smith.2C_Rivard.2C_Walsh.2C_Koster.3Fhere, but there was no consensus reached. Plus the background section was discussed in detail here. User:Anonymous209.6 states this is an issue related to WP:OR. This is an issue that was discussed on WP:ORN, here.
With that background, I wanted to get some outside opinions on the background section. Namely, is there a problem with WP:OR in using the background section for the entire article? Casprings ( talk) 23:09, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
Conversations on the general topic of the present Background section are a total mess. They are spread out all over WP, instead of kept together, and have unrelated issues and questions mashed in. Anything resembling consensus is difficult to fathom, and this is complicated by WP:OR and WP:SYNTH being in fact SEVERAL issues. While as per the closing admin, and several independent editors, WP:OR looks pretty obvious, also per closing admin, the argument has not been adequately fleshed out, in specific; to some extent it has just been stated as obvious. Similarly, while a consensus has been correctly claimed, it is actually NOT on the issue of WP:OR, but unhelpfully on the issue of WP:RS, which was not in question. All original research (in the real world), and WP:OR actually involves some references; that is not the issue. WP:OR does not just imply the absence of WP:RS, but includes statements by placement, in this case, stating that information is Background, namely that it is essential to an understanding of the subject material.
The Background section is presently the Background section of the WHOLE ARTICLE. While some editors claim that the material relates to Todd Akin (only one section of many), there has yet to be an argument that it relates to any other section. A previously uninvolved editor coming to the article would be led to believe that ALL persons named in the article have been directly linked by WP:RS to 1980s WP:FRINGE theories on female reproduction, because by making this the Background section, that is de facto stated IN WP's VOICE. No article connects Richard Mourdock to 1980s WP:FRINGE theories. Richard Mourdock did not say anything about 1980s WP:FRINGE theories. WP:FRINGE theories are not necessary, nor do they add anything to an understanding of what Richard Mourdock did or did not say. Substitute any name for Richard Mourdock, except that of Todd Akin, and you have the same rhetorical question; is stating that this background section is essential to understand _____ and directly connected to ____, as it's existence does, WP:OR, or is it stated in WP:RS.-- Anonymous209.6 ( talk) 00:57, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
A significant point raised by Casprings and FurrySings is that a background section will naturally draw in issues that are not directly related to the topic of an article (for example, events that took place before the topic of the article). Such a section is helpful to a reader but must be done be done fairly per WP:NPOV and using verifiable resources dealing with the topic of the article ( Rape and pregnancy controversies in United States elections, 2012 in this case) in order not to be original research. I didn't see evidence in discussion that that is not the case in this instance. Maybe the section in this instance is OR, just no evidence was given to demonstrate that it is so.
Please! Someone must undo this Original Research → http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Southern_Rhodesia&diff=428686199&oldid=420657150 I can not undo it. The guy who did that, had 2 messages about Original Research on Wikipedia. User talk:72.222.237.173
Is this release of excerpts from a report a primary source? Or should I just source direct quotes from it? Darkness Shines ( talk) 21:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Note: A version of this query was posted on WP:BLPN where no one responded except regarding procedural matters; two noninvolved editors at Editor's assistance said it would not be Forum Shopping to bring it here; editor in question objected.
WP:OR reads in intro: To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented.
Given that the editor has been going through a lot of biographies of Austrian economists he disagrees with, it needs to be made clear to him that adding this kind of WP:OR is against policy. Such debates belong in articles on the subject in question (for example, Economic forecasting), not in bios. If they were allowed there, many bios would just become argument fests of sources not mentioning the subject at all. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 13:59, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm not smart like you, but I am considerably more civil. SPECIFICO talk 22:28, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Just to make it clear what the complaint is, and since User:Specifico keeps adding WP:OR, here's the material we are talking about as of today. Only the first two sentences are sourced by material mentioning Huerta de Soto, the subject of the WP:BLP. The rest are in italics.:
In 2008 he stated that Austrian economists Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich Hayek were the only ones who predicted stock market crash of 1929 and the Great Depression of the 1930s. He also stated that Austrian School economists predicted the stagflation of the 1970s which followed the so-called oil crisis of 1973. [5] Economist Mark Skousen writes that in 1929 Mises declined a job at the Austrian bank Kreditanstalt telling his future wife "A great crash is coming and I don't want my name in any way connected to it." The bank failed in 1931. Skousen quotes Austrian economist Fritz Machlup as saying that Mises had been prophesying the failure of Kreditanstalt nearly every Wednesday afternoon since 1924. [6][improper synthesis?]
Chicago School economist Milton Friedman, whose positivist methodology was antithetical to the Austrian approach, foretold the 1970s stagflation in his 1967 Presidential Address to the American Economic Association. [7] [8] [9][improper synthesis?]
If this sort of thing is allowed, we might as well get rid of the WP:OR policy. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 00:37, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
In general I agree with balancing the less credible claims of Austrian School economists whether they appear in biographies or not. Wikipedia is uncharacteristically biased with hagiographies of Austrians and walled gardens supporting them which leave inaccurate impressions of the entire field due to the undue weight they have been afforded. I think it's reasonable to be pragmatic about that problem while it exists. EllenCT ( talk) 18:01, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Interesting comment, Stalwart. In case you were not aware, this article was recently mooted for AfD. I had no opinion on that, but it led to the current round of editing activity at the article. SPECIFICO talk 13:36, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
I have doubts that WP:CALC applies to converting an entry such as "Chanc. Inq. p.m. 4 Hen. VII, No. 87." (as shown in a pedigree chart published in the late 19th century) into "died 1488" in an article. It's not something that the average reader could confirm without some specialist knowledge. Our articles Inquisition post mortem and Regnal years of English monarchs provide background info, and the discussion at Talk:Manor of Molland#Original research etc is relevant. And if consensus is that WP:CALC does apply, should the date be shown as 1488, 1488/9 or 1489? — SMALL JIM 21:47, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
Where are the sources for all these names and facts? How can we check them out. This entire article looks like a puff piece to me, but I am really interested seeing some citations. Yours, GeorgeLouis ( talk) How can you say they are "notable" if they don't have Wikipedia articles. Tagging for challenge and removal. GeorgeLouis ( talk) 06:01, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
More attention at False accusation of rape would be nice, where we have someone repeatedly inserting his own personal opinions about a study which found a lower rate of false accusations than he believes in. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 20:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
An IP editor added a section to the High Noon article about the date of the story. No references were cited other than the film itself. I content that the section clearly violates NOR. I deleted the section twice over a several-day period citing either a reference is needed or NOR in the edit summary. I also looked for a reference but failed to find one. Another registered user deleted the section once also citing NOR in the edit summary. The IP editor contends their entry is not OR in a discussion on my talk page. Under several different IP addresses in as many days, they restored the section. Their most recent IP address is: 130.251.51.82; note that they have deleted messages regarding this issue from their talk page (update: they were restored). My feeling is that another party will be needed to resolve the issue. Regards, Pinethicket ( talk) 14:18, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
One editor is continuing to replace material at Paul-Louis Couchoud ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) which is basically original research supporting the Christ myth theory without actually discussing Couchoud. He's been warned by another editor for OR on this article and on another article by a 3rd editor, but he either doesn't understand our policy or doesn't care. See his talk page - c for his comments (or lack of them) and for more evidence about his interest in the Christ myth idea. I haven't reverted him after his latest replacement of it but I would like others to see if they agree with me. His latest revert is [35] and as you can see his edit summary is "article on important chapter of history of rationalism in France based on Couchoud, his reception, during and after hislife" - which examplifies the problem, this is meant to be a biography, not an article on an aspect of the history of rationalism in France based on Couchoud. Thanks. Dougweller ( talk) 15:55, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Article affected: Battle of Triangle Hill (possibly United States presidential election, 1952 depends on the outcome of this dispute)
Other dispute party: User:NumbiGate: notification sent.
current discussion on talk page
Focus of dispute:
1) Mentions of 1952 United States presidential election should be included in the article of Battle of Triangle Hill since they are both major events of Korean War and happens to happen at the same time period.
2) Statement based on citation 84 (Despite its impact and scale, the Battle of Triangle Hill is one of the least known episodes of the Korean War within the Western media.[84]) should be amended because Battle of Triangle Hill is mentioned in mass media in the United States during the 1952 election.
3) Summarizing primary documentations in the article without stating conclusions that "Battle of Triangle Hill affected the 1952 United States presidential election" is not breaching WP:PSTS policy.
4) During the entire discussion User:NumbiGate refused to provide any secondary sources that supports his points, and it is making me unable to either understand or incorporate his suggestions due to lack of sources to cross reference. Jim101 ( talk) 17:23, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
Should the article IAAF Hall of Fame contain an unsourced list of athletes that, according to the research of Wikipedia editors, meet the criteria for a future inclusion in the hall of fame? I found eight factual errors in the section and objected to the content based on WP:V, WP:OR, WP:CRYSTAL and WP:BLP, arguing that it constitutes unverifiable original research and unencyclopedic speculation, but two editors who have worked on the list disagree with me. Prolog ( talk) 11:28, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
As a once-contributor to the article I have been invited by Trackinfo to express my opinion:
The discussion whether WP:NOR or CRYSTAL etc is the case here is IMHO time-vasting. There are only two crucial pieces of information for the article - 1) criteria of eligibility, 2) list of members (ie those already inducted) with year of induction. Both of them are satisfactory covered and make the article solid. IMHO there is no need to have also a list of possible future inductees who match the criteria. Only these already chosen and announced as members of the Hall of Fame are necessary for the article. So please drop any appendices listing potential candidates from the article. This should solve the whole issue. -- Miaow Miaow ( talk) 03:59, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
As an uninvolved editor, I'd like to add my opinion. The list as presented simply states which athletes match the criteria for inclusion to the IAAF Hall of Fame, rather than speculating if they will or will not be inducted. By that measure, I would not say that it quite falls under WP:CRYSTAL, but the possibility of changes in or waiving of criteria for induction does mean that such a list cannot be, well, crystal clear. I think, by that measure, it distracts from the article by giving the impression that there is a mechanical process to the induction, rather than consideration of individuals who already meet the criteria - if there is no source to confirm that any of the athletes mentioned are being considered by the IAAF for future induction, then I feel it gives something of a false impression of surety.
I can see the potential for a short list of athletes in prose illustrating that a number of athletes who are eligible have not been inducted, and I would definitely support cited discussion of any debate regarding the IAAF Hall of Fame and its processes of induction, especially the debate over the criteria for inclusion into the IAAF Hall of Fame - the points raised above regarding things like unattainability of new world records in some disciplines are important background for anyone reading the subject, and sourced controversy would add a lot to this article. Perhaps instead of continuing to debate whether or not the list should be included, editors could provide some flavour of the criteria debate to the article itself? — Sasuke Sarutobi ( talk) 00:04, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
I have to say that I agree with Miaow Miaow and SFB. It had bothered me from the beginning, that the criteria seem to be very broad. Lots of athletes match these criteria, maybe nearly hundred or more? Especially I missed great athletes from Russia and East Germany, which shaped a whole era. Montell 74 ( talk) 13:54, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
Editing dispute about the timeline of the naming of this individual. Several editors claim that he has a "style from birth" that include his forenames, citing the precedent set by other "Royal" articles for this practice. No direct source for this given. Indeed, it was stated the day after that not to have been chosen at that point (copiously sourced), was then announced to the public the day after that (also copiously sourced), and then registered yesterday (again, copiously sourced). There are also sources stating in advance what the title would be, once the name was known. Question is, does this take "retrospective" effect, or should it be reported as if it does, "by convention", and what sort of sourcing would be sufficient for this. Incidentally, tags pointing out that the date isn't in the source keep being removed. 84.203.39.131 ( talk) 21:34, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
An editor has added a list of staff and employees (non-members) to this list of members of the organization. The editor admits that it is original research from primary sources but sees no problem with that, re-adding it after acknowledging the OR. Capitalismojo ( talk) 02:51, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
The article on electronic cigarettes currently mentions that they contain tobacco specific nitrosamines. Would it be OR to change that to something along these lines:
Thanks.-- FergusM1970 Let's play Freckles 00:05, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Do we have a recent high quality secondary source that makes these comparisons? If not that agree it is synth Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 11:20, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.
User:Geo Swan has a subpage in his userspace called Wittes breakdown, which he claimed here "contained information which could be plugged into restored articles on any captive" and that it was a reliable secondary source because it was a summary of a 99-page academic paper. Conversely, I believe this is synthesis. Looking at the page, it is full of elisions. Therefore, the summaries there are Geo Swan's, not the paper's. One is therefore relying not on the source, but on Geo Swan's interpretation of it. This is tagged as a rough notes page, but it's not being used as such given the assertions made. IMO, this is not appropriate material for userspace, but I've decided to bring it here for further opinion. MSJapan ( talk) 14:00, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
|
I am in a disagreement with what constitutes "OR" with @ Folken de Fanel: who considers any statement I make to be OR or NPOV despite multiple references existing for the material. He shuffles around the information of the incomplete section and labels the most basic summarizations as such, despite the contrary. Specifically, he removed the summerization, "Neon Genesis Evangelion's overt religious themes run counter to Tsurumaki's dismissal and Anno's "self-interpretation" values. Opposition to these comments exist in the fan and academic communities." The immediate following line is, "Broderick writes, "Anno's project is a postmodernist retelling of the Genesis myth, as his series title implies—Neon Genesis Evangelion. It is a new myth of origin, complete with its own deluge, Armageddon, apocalypse and transcendence." [11] He says Broderick doesn't contradict Tsurumaki, whose one time dismissal of a Christian meaning is being used over the writer and directors decades long "its like an onion" comments on the meaning of the show. In order to respond, only on the talk page, I pointed out an essay by Duan that explains several theories about Tsurumaki's comment. Such comments are fairly simple, but I believe the wording is the big issue here, Okada's comment, "Mr. Anno ("Evangelion") apparently never read the Bible, despite the heavy Christian symbology of his work; he just (according to Mr. Okada) picked out a few interesting technical terms. Likewise, the anime creation staff might open a book on psychology and, rather than read it thoroughly, simply go through it picking out "great technical terms" to use in the anime!" is more candid and not a business backed call like Tsurumaki's comment. While Tsurumaki is often intentionally whimsical or downright misleading in numerous contexts, say FLCL, it is Okada which presents a more balanced and specific view.
These views must be weighed against the much later release of the comments. Anno's comments before suggested a grand theme, Tsurumaki calmed Christian symbolism, Okada acknowledged the symbols and uses them as "great technical terms". In terms of "truth", its Anno, Okada, Tsurumaki (of the three (but not all) mentions), because of the nature and circumstances surrounding the development and view and environment of the comment. This is why Broderick's comment about the theme of Evangelion eviscerates Tsurumaki's comment. The Evaneglion Chronicle does so as well. The original Evangelion Proposal, made a full 2 years before the show contains religious themes, going so far as to name the enemies and their appearances and cite them from the Angels of the Old Testament. Duan's essay follows the typical, "as a whole it is clearly intentional" theme, because the pieces are too interconnected to be a passive reference and is deeply engrained into the show's theme.
Depending on interpretations - something any Wikipedia editor should weigh during writing - the whole situation should be looked at objectively. A vast academic body of work exists on the show, numerous lenses are used to analyze it, but over and over again the religious themes are so present and overt that it becomes impossible to consider it a "passive" creation. Before the show began the theme of creation was proposed, and are "replete" with such symbolism. Broderick concludes, "Regardless of creator Anno's stated intentions and artistic agenda, Neon Genesis Evangelion achieves what all major apocalyptic works invoke whether they be narrative, myth, prophecy, crusade or therapy—namely, a vision of society radically transformed from one of chaotic and imminent demise towards the liberation from oppression of an elect into a new realm of perpetual peace and harmony." This is confusing... because Anno is secretive and says that the "true" interpretations will ever be provided, essentially stating to each his own. Academics quite clearly see connections to the Book of Genesis, and Christian symbolism - that is undisputed. The sheer wealth of such sources and deep details uncover, rather plainly if I might add, that Tsurumaki's dismissal is wrong and Okada's "great terms" is half-wrong.
I'll conclude why, using Broderick, Okada is wrong, but I have alluded to it before. The existence of the materials, like the Proposal are heavy evidence of planning. It took many years to even get the "first race" material to be circulated that was originally proposed a full two years before the show. The 第一始祖民族、Dai'ichi Shiso Minzoku is the First Ancestral Race, first covered in the NGE 2 video game is revealed in the "classified information" and was done through Anno's work. This information, while of some canon issues, is a great supplemental work - and was covered in the original proposal for NGE and never covered in the show, but the mythos contains several references. Here is where the information diverges, "They were the first extraterrestrial intelligence. The humanoid species, referred to as the First Ancestral Race, started to spread Seeds of Life throughout the Milky Way Galaxy. As of yet, we do not know their motives or for what they were aiming. It is becoming evident that multiple Seeds were disseminated. Eventually, by force of sheer bad luck, two accidentally landed on the same planet: Adam of the White Moon, and Lilith of the Black Moon." and "Within a carrier known as a "Moon", the First Ancestral Race fabricated a perfect cavity (also referred to as a "Moon"), at which point the Seed, or "Progenitor Entity", would be placed inside and sent out into space. That was their technology, and, from the perspective of Angels, humans, and others, they might be called gods." Now that's one aspect. More on the spear, "It is a spear which has a will and is a type of lifeform capable of moving by itself. This is an item close to a god and thus able to put a Seed of Life (Progenitor Entity), who holds the power of eternal life, into suspended animation, and this is the reason why the Seed of Life (Progenitor Entity) does not reach god-status. The First Ancestral Race prepared this as a counter- measure in the event that a Seed of Life (Progenitor Entity) did not follow their own goals. It is thought that a Spear acting as Lilith's counterpart was separated from it by the shock at the time of First Impact. This Spear has yet to be found. There is a chance that it may have been destroyed." and on the Angels/Adam, "Two Seeds of Life are not needed on one planet, and, therefore, one of them is excluded. As recorded in the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls, Adam-based life took part in a contest of survival, putting the stakes on their own existence. Some of them were trying to access Lilith and reset all life, some of them had nothing in mind, and some were trying to recover their progenitor Adam. The Angels — Adam-based life — became active under their respective tactics for survival and success."
Lastly, the Instrumentality, "The Human Instrumentality Project is a plan aimed at divinity. The Evas are absolutely essential to Seele, for they are the sole key that can open the Path to God. This is because they were copied from Adam, the being nearest to a god.Still, there is something humanity lacks. Seele believed they had through Eva what was necessary to fill-in that which was missing; to make man into a God, or at least into an eternal existence. Completing an incomplete humanity, and opening up the Path to God, is Seele's doctrine. What would happen if people were gathered into something of a god? Seele believed we would become God himself. While the Angels were being engaged in battle, people were also making and advancing the plan for the path that leads to divinity. The first step is the completion of Eva — the body of a god and throne of a soul — via the installation of an S² Engine. The interfusion of souls follows. Afterward, our final natural enemy, the Spear of Longinus security device, is annihilated. Thus, that which is nearly divine, or perhaps a god in and of itself, is brought to completion, and, with the Spear gone, cannot be destroyed by anyone. Seele's intention for this man-made god is to guide the elite (themselves) to state near that of God's." And for one additional message (later used in Tengen toppa, "The S² Engine Theory was advocated by Dr. Katsuragi. As the world is formed with spirals, the engine acquires energy from its shape, which is the same as DNA. From here, the S² Engine was being envisioned as an energy source that would attempt to procure helical energy — in other words, an inexhaustible supply. (The Engine is) The Fruit of Life. This is the one thing that an Eva requires in order to gain an existence equal to that of Adam."
If this is not absolutely clear, than perhaps with the title, "Gospel of a New Century" - it should be. Tsurumaki's only comment of relevance is, "There are a lot of giant robot shows in Japan, and we did want our story to have a religious theme to help distinguish us. ... There is no actual Christian meaning to the show, we just thought the visual symbols of Christianity look cool." And the religious themes (not the meaning) are clear and trying to say there was no religious theme is just wrong. The religious meaning is disputed, but this depends on your definition of meaning, but as Broderick notes a retelling of Genesis, clearly the impression exists and is well supported. Broderick is not my "be all" source, its only one of them... Sorry for the complex issue! ChrisGualtieri ( talk) 13:15, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
The future of the modern Commonwealth
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
There is a dispute about how to interpret the statement by Alex Salmond, the First Minister of Scotland and leader of the Scottish National Party. Salmond said an independent Scotland "would still share a monarchy with the rest of the UK just as we did for a century before the Parliamentary Union of 1707, and just as 16 other Commonwealth countries do now." Does that mean that an independent Scotland would be a "Commonwealth Realm?"
Current "Commonwealth Realms" include the United Kingdom and former colonies, now members of the Commonwealth, that have retained the Queen as their head of state. They agree to maintain a similar succession law and style and titles.
James VI, King of Scots, became James I, King of England in 1607, and in 1707 the crowns were merged as the crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Scots have long protested the 1701 Act of Settlement, which barred the Stuart claimants, and the numbering system, even demanding that the current Queen be known as "Elizabeth I" in Scotland.
I do not know if the monarchy of Scotland would be considered a restoration of the Scottish monarchy or a continuation of the British monarchy or whether any of these factors would determine whether the Commonwealth would consider Scotland a Commonwealth Realm, or whether Scotland would accept the description. Salmon does not even say in the source whether Scotland would continue in the Commonwealth.
It seems to me that unless there is a source saying Scotland would become a Commonwealth Realm, it is OR to say it would.
TFD ( talk) 17:52, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Of course, TFD didn't quote what the article Commonwealth realm actually says: "The following year, Portia Simpson-Miller, the Prime Minister of Jamaica, spoke of a desire to make that country a republic, while Alex Salmond, the First Minister of Scotland and leader of the Scottish National Party (which favours Scottish independence) stated his intention for an independent Scotland to be a Commonwealth realm." Note that nowhere is it stated Scotland will or would be a Commonwealth realm. -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 18:26, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
He also says "just as [Scotland] did for a century before the Parliamentary Union of 1707." Which arrangement is he more likely to follow - Scotland or the Commonwealth Realms? TFD ( talk) 19:35, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
Is there a source for "crowns were merged" (TFD above)? No one, not the Queen or any one else, can "know if the monarchy of Scotland would be considered a restoration of the Scottish monarchy or a continuation of the British monarchy... " per TFD above. How can such speculation determine the content of the article? It is idle and pointless. Whatever OR may be, it is certain that if Salmond is to be mentioned in the article, his words should not be paraphrased but quoted, in main text or footnote, per AndyTG above. An attempt to paraphrase would be equally idle and pointless. Why is it there anyway? To promote his soapbox? Qexigator ( talk) 18:36, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Editors are invited to participate at Talk:LGBT rights under international law#Duplicated text on countries' obligations under international law, a Request for Comments concerning material on countries' obligations under international law to protect LGBT rights. One of the main issues for discussion is whether the material in question constitutes original research. — Psychonaut ( talk) 12:06, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
For some reason a discussion over a particular forum was initiated at Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources#Skyscrapercity.com online forum which has grown into a general discussion about forums as sources. There's a request for comment and it seems to me that others here will probably be interested and may have missed it. Dougweller ( talk) 19:05, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
User:Laval has purged a significant amount of properly cited biographical content from the new Tony Ortega BLP article less than 12 hours after I posted it claiming that it was original research amongst other things. Although I am a noob editor, I find those edits troubling and request somebody more knowledgeable than I am to review the version history to see anything that was stripped away can be restored. I spent several weeks developing that article offline in order to replace the stub the user originally posted that I thought was questionable in the context of lacking serious biographical material when there was so much readily available. Additionally, some of edits removed entire sections (Eg. Recognition that listed industry awards and honors the subject received) that I had carefully drafted based on seeing the same sort of content on other articles for seasoned journalists with comparable history. Thus I'm quite perplexed as to why it was removed in whole. Thanks in advance for your assistance. Hapshepsuit ( talk) 14:03, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
There is a request for comments (RfC) that may be of interest. The RfC is at
At issue is whether we should delete or keep the following text in the Lavabit article:
There have been concerns expressed as to whether the above violates our no original research policy. Your input on this question would be very much welcome. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 04:56, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
A certain user is continually reposting original research and racist spam. The "prolegomenon" (by itself an un-encyclopaedic phrase) to the article "Spengler's Civilization Model" ( Spengler's civilization model) is clearly racist as well as unrelated to the subject matter. It is 100% original research.
Every time I tried to add the OR tag the same user deletes it. I tried deleting the Prolegomenon but he keeps reposting what is essentially a speculative essay filled with cliches, stereotypes and generalizations unrelated to the subject whatsoever. Using the Talk Page did not help at all, since the user just ignored what I wrote.
I have currently bolded certain parts of the Prolegomenon which are especially obvious in their offensiveness - however, the WHOLE THING needs to go, it is pure speculation and original research and unverifiable and therefore un-encyclopaedic content. It even makes predictions about the future ("In the end of 2014 AD, the synergy of new debt will decrease to zero, at which moment the world will undergo an electrical breakdown—an instantaneous tunnelling to a more negative energy state.")Ben Ammi, Ben Ammi ( talk) 21:09, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Examples of the madness:
As it stands, the Prolegomenon to this article even claims to prophesy the future, hardly an encyclopaedic thing to do: "In the end of 2014 AD, the synergy of new debt will decrease to zero, at which moment the world will undergo an electrical breakdown—an instantaneous tunnelling to a more negative energy state."
So is this a fact or not? If so, I'd like some verification and sources - furthermore I'd like sources for all these claims, that Wikipedia is currently making to the world in its Prolegomenon section to Spengler's Civilization Model:
"Women like pink; Mongoloid flags (Japan, China, Vietnam) are red; sunrise (the spring of the day) is red"
"Men like blue; the Jewish flag is blue; midnight (the winter of the day) is blue ("No brown after six")"
"The redshiftedness of the Mongoloids and the blueshiftedness of the Jews imply that they are the broad Epimethean and narrow Promethean parts of the same funnel-shaped gravity well:"
"Being such blueshifted fallen angels, men are Promethean (future-minded, goal-oriented) mentally and Mephistophelean (spaghettified, serpentine, penile) corporeally."
"Cerebrotonia is the predominance of nervous tissue, which is "cosmopolitan"—interconnected encapsulated groups (ganglia) of neurons ("Jewish communities") reside in all organs ("countries") and orchestrate them into a single organism"
"Infantile (feminine, rural, Mongoloid) brain: Predominance of gray matter (the neuronal cell bodies and their dendrites, the short protrusions that communicate with immediately neighbouring neurons in the brain)."
"Adult (masculine, urban, Jewish) brain: Predominance of white matter (the axons that reach out from neurons to more distant regions of the brain; since an axon is insulated with myelin, it is "Aspergian"—alienated from its immediate surroundings)."''
Are all these crazy claims actually verifiable facts ? I doubt it. But this guy keeps reposting this stuff again and again, spamming Wikipedia and making a mockery of the "online encyclopedia."
Ben Ammi Ben Ammi ( talk) 14:42, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
The section The White Queen (TV series)#Historical Inaccuracies is 100% WP:SYN. I pointed this out on the talk page, but to no avail. As an IP editor I have no weight, so if there is a more experienced editor here who wants to step in, that might be helpful. 202.81.243.196 ( talk) 12:06, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
I am having a dispute with NinjaRobotPirate about the above-mentioned article. He appears determined to remove most the article as it stood before two days or so ago, as "unsourced". His editing policy is that one edits best those articles to which one is indifferent (to paraphrase from his talkpage). I accept that he is acting is good faith, as he may see fit, but I strenuously disagree with his actions.
Also, by being indifferent to material one is editing one is less likely to be familiar with it, and, even more importantly, less invested in it. I do not understand what has to be done to "source" this material, almost all of which, directly dovetails with the lengthy, spoilers-and-all, synopses of all these mystery novels, right here on Wikipedia. Where I am supposed to find paperbacks to cite page numbers?? Those (Christie) novels which were written after ISBNs came into existence have them on their article pages. I admit I am fond of the article in question, as a long time Christie aficionado, and to see it whittled down from a redwood to a bonsai is painful and, I believe, unnecessary.
Yours, Quis separabit? 23:38, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
I have been trying to clean up Interac_(Japan) for some time now and there has recently been a revert and edit of my previous edits. I request help with this page. Taurus669 ( talk) 02:47, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
This page is full of original research related to the Union presence section and below.
In particular, the revert and edit made by Mah2012 on 23 August 2013 and by 202.241.4.55 on 30 August 2013 seem to be full of self-published materials by the same union(s) that these editors are including.
The edit on 30 August 2013 called "Operation Slingshot" appears to be 100% original research. Taurus669 ( talk) 02:45, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
On August 28, 2013, a large paragraph was added to Ventura,_California#Points_of_interest about the Westside Neighborhood that has no citations and appears to be original research.
Could an editor provide further comments since the entire section needs work as does much of the page? This paragraph and others are beginning to describe neighborhoods rather than Points of Interest. The rest of the Points of Interest just seem to be random sentences. There is also a list of Notable locations with the distinctive feature that many of the places are not "worthy of notice" and do not include links. If one uses the WikiProject_Cities/US_Guideline, where would information about notable landmarks and locations go? On a separate page? -- Fettlemap ( talk) 21:52, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
I've never done one of these before. Sorry. Lightbreather ( talk) 20:49, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article currently titled Federal Assault Weapons Ban was created in January 2003 as "Assault weapons ban". After that it was redirected/renamed five times (as far as I can tell) until October 2006, when it was capitalized, without discussion that I can find. Why this decision was made and why it has stayed under the radar for so long is a mystery. A preponderence of reliable, verifiable sources use the term "federal assault weapons ban" in sentence case in running text. Many use it lowercase in titles and headers, too. I have found no evidence that the WP:TITLE policy and the WP:NCCAPS guideline should be an exception for this article. Ignoring widely-used conventions for this article in Wikipedia reflects poorly on its credibility.
I haven't mastered WP coding, so pardon me if I format these links clumsily, but here are some:
I think this article would be improved by restoring its title to sentence case format. Based on the sources, to use title case seems
WP:OR.
-- Lightbreather ( talk) 20:04, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
A user has alleged that the following wikitext on the genesis and characteristics of the Somali Sign Language (SSL) is inconsistent with the sources presented. As discussed here, much of the material is drawn from The beginning and growth of a new language - Somali Sign Language by Doreen E. Woodford of the Deaf Africa Fund [43]:
Hatnoted wikitext |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
Please point out which if any of the hatnoted sentences above are problematic, and how to go about fixing that phrase(s). Middayexpress ( talk) 14:52, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
Please see the debate at Talk:European English. An editor is insistent that the concept exists, but I can find no verifiable references that support the assertion. The editor has added a substantial amount of unreferenced material to the article, all of which appears to be OR. I won't revert again - I had originally set the page as a redirect to British English some time ago. Please have a look, thanks. The Roman Candle ( talk) 18:08, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
See Talk:Abraham - perhaps we need a source saying specifically that the dispute exists, but I don't see the statement as OR. (Nor do I think we need a 'who' tag when the sources are in the article. Dougweller ( talk) 18:37, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
"Just citing sources pointing to individual's works, individials that happen to disagree with the historicity of the biblical account (biblical in this case, but the WP policy involved applies to anything out there) is not enough. Wikipedia is a tertiary source of information and, per WP:RS, we must cite sources that -actually- support added text exactly. Adding citations - as it is the case here - of dissenters is not sufficient (or even relevant). The only valid citations are those that -actually- lend support to the claim in question. That is, someone needs to find a citation that actually says something like "Academics debate the historicity of the biblical account of Abraham's life." Sources from dissenters who disagree with the biblical account - One reliable source or a million reliable sources - are not enough. This is explained in WP:OR and WP:SYN. A WP editor is not allowed to draw conclusions. There are sources FROM dissenters and there are sources from others reporting ABOUT such dissenters. The only valid sources here would be the second type. There is an enormous difference between the two."
This concerns a correction I made to the the article Six Day War. There are 2 photos in the article that make statements to the effect of they containing "Israeli children" when the photos also contain adult men and women (which I believe the average person will safely assume the adults there to be Israelies as well). As such, I made THIS edit correction, with an explanatory summary statement and left a message in the article's talk page HERE as well. My edit was reverted HERE by User:Irondome with the comment "Thats called OR. And you spelled "Israeli" incorrectly" (I don't really care how he wants to spell Israeli; that's not what I am objecting to here). The comment the editor left at the Talk Page can be seen HERE. And the 2 photos in question with their current (and objectionable) captions are these:
<<< "Israeli women and children in a bomb shelter at Kfar Maimon near the Egyptian border"
The above, I maintain, should read "Israelis in a bomb shelter at Kfar Maimon near the Egyptian border" (there is also an adult man in this photo)
<<< "Israeli children in a bomb shelter at Kibbutz Dan during the war."
The above, in my opinion, should read "Israelis in a bomb shelter at Kibbutz Dan during the war." (there are in fact at least 5 adults in this photo)
Now, I am perfectly aware the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a touchy issue for many. However, I bring no agenda here (as the reverting editor might be assuming) as I am neither Israeli nor Arab nor Palentinian nor Jew, nor from any other nation that supports either side. The one agenda I bring here is the Wikipedia agenda: WP:COMMON SENSE. So I ask, (1) did I err in correcting what appears to be an error clearer than the noonday sun, and (2) is it WP:OR (and how is it WP:OR?) to have made the change as the other editor has claimed? Mercy11 ( talk) 19:48, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Irondome's position in this dispute defies common sense. If the image has an adult in it, plainly visible, I see nothing wrong with pointing that out in the caption. Someguy1221 ( talk) 02:14, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Irondome, I don't know where you are coming from, but no matter how much I can AGF, your arguments are close to trolling. The one who should drop the stick is you. It is obvious that saying women and children in a picture that has women,children and male adults not only is inaccurate, but it is also subtle emotional POV. Calling it An attempt to rewrite the history of the photos and their context
is even weirder. If the problem is "Israelis" vs "kibbutz volunteers" or whatever, let's just write "People in a bomb shelter...": singling out women,children and men is after all useless and this way we avoid pigeonholing them as civilians/Israelis/whatever. --
cyclopia
speak! 11:27, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
One might suspect a POV-pushing issue here from the fact that almost all the images in the article except maps are of Israelis, with an emphasis on Israeli civilians. According to the image description page, the image "Israeli women and children in a bomb shelter" is originally "התושבים במקלט במלחמת ששת הימים". My Hebrew ain't great, but I believe התושבים means "residents" not "women and children". There is also extra Hebrew text about women, children and yeshiva students, but it comes from a pikiwiki page and I don't know why that is a reliable source. The propagandistic nature of the images and their description in their Israeli sources is obvious. The rules about OR are not the only applicable rules; NPOV is also highly relevant. Just as we neutralize the language of polemic sources when we summarise them, we should neutralize image descriptions. Putting my wikilawyering hat on: Blueboar is usually right but in this case I think it is not true that strict interpretation of WP:NOR requires us to use the image description of the source. The point is that the source doesn't contain only the description, it also contains the image. Both the image and its description are information provided by the source and our task is to summarize all this information without adding information that is not presented by the source. The source containing the image with the man is providing the information that there was a man there and it is not OR to say so. Zero talk 10:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
Just a side note... If the original source for a photo (a book, newspaper, museum archive, etc.) has a caption accompanying the photo, it is not OR to repeat that caption in Wikipedia... but, if we do so we need to cite where the caption's text came from. And, if that original caption is biased or controversial, then we should also directly link the caption to the source through attribution in our caption. For example: saying something like: ... "This photograph (from the archives of the Luxembourg Museum of Belgian War Atrocities) is captioned: Innocent Luxembourger women and children cowering in a bomb shelter during the evil Belgian mortar attacks. <cite museum archives>" would pass WP:OR, WP:NPOV and WP:V. While clearly biased, such an attributed caption would indicate that the bias is that of the museum, and not our article. Blueboar ( talk) 12:08, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
it is not up to us to change the caption to be "neutral" or be less sympathetic to Israelis- Yes, it is. We can use a photo and add our own caption -indeed, that's what we almost always do on WP. And that is what it should be done here. A photo is a thing, the caption is another thing, we are not required (AFAIK) to use them together. And if we were to use the original caption, it should be clearly put between quotes and indicated as such, e.g. Original caption: "..." -- cyclopia speak! 16:07, 7 October 2013 (UTC)