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Notified: Mass Message Send notifications, talk page notice 2023-01-28
I am the nominator of the 2007 Minneapolis FAC and have been working to bring it to current FA standards since at least 2020 through several talk page archives, with SandyGeorgia looking in. I believe it is at today's FA standard, and ready for review at FAR. Thank you. - SusanLesch ( talk) 21:17, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- I never did finish my pre-FAR review on article talk; will try to get back to that by leaving comments here this weekend. Hog Farm Talk 00:44, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
I need to give the new Turnpike album a second listen anyways, so might as well start going through this tonight. Saving the lead for last ...
- I know that newer style of interactive map has its benefits, but is there any way to also show the reader at a glance where Minneapolis is located in the country, rather than making them get into the interactive map, fiddle with the zoom system which is kinda balky on mobile, and then try to figure out that information?
- Yes. I guess WikiProject Maps added the interactive maps recently. I placed an old style pushpin map under theirs. Is this OK?
- "The US Army Corps of Engineers built a concrete dike that held in 1876" - needs rephrased somehow. Current phrasing implies that there was some sort of particulalry important holding that happened in 1876
- Restored an old version with more details, thank you. It took the Corps of Engineers 6 years or more to stop the Eastman Tunnel leak.
- So do the sources indicate why exactly the milling and logging declined? From what I can tell the milling seems to have taken over about the time the logging went down, but it's not obvious from a quick skim of sources if the milling directly supplanted the lumber, or if the local forests had been extirpated, or something else altogether
- Excellent point. I added a sentence in two places, demarcating the demise of lumbering and flour milling. Does it make better sense now?
- "With the Fuji-Ya restaurant leading the way on the west bank," - is this a particularly important detail to note? I had noticed when I was doing my informal review on the talk page several months again that the article had a tendency to make unnecessary name drops
- Not absolutely necessary and has been removed.
- Susan, I'd like to hear your and Sandy's thoughts on this, but I have some tone concerns here. Stuff like "formidable Institute of Technology", "in the end, to the nation and the globe", and others.
- My shorthand, and no problem to omit.
- The Institute of Technology was indispensible, which the source suggests, but was perhaps overrepresented (say, in comparison to other institutions) by the word "formidable" (we had that discussion before about " fabulous" which I removed).
- Again a shorthand way of saying "nationally and internationally", opting for shorter words. Omitted.
- My shorthand, and no problem to omit.
- " and supplied about half the electrical needs of the US military during World War II" - the sources actually says "during World War II the firm produced nearly half of all the electric plants used by the American military during the conflict". There is an important distinction between "electrical needs" which implies all electricity usage, and then producing half of all generators, which doesn't really equate to half of electricity usage
- Good catch, Hog Farm. Reworded that sentence to reflect the sources, and say more precisely, "and supplied about half the generator sets the US military used during World War II."
Stopping here for now. Hog Farm Talk 03:19, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think either of those examples of tone are necessary, and they should be omitted unless the source specifically supports them, in which case they should be quoted and attributed. Thanks for reviewing, HF; it's been several months since I last took a deep dive.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 03:27, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you, Hog Farm. I was looking forward to your comments and they didn't disappoint. Everything done as indicated inline above, with one exception. Looking for an alternate way to say "nation and the globe." -
SusanLesch (
talk) 23:14, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Done. I'm embarrassed to say the phrase is a too-close paraphrase of William Lass. Much better to omit it. - SusanLesch ( talk) 00:48, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you, Hog Farm. I was looking forward to your comments and they didn't disappoint. Everything done as indicated inline above, with one exception. Looking for an alternate way to say "nation and the globe." -
SusanLesch (
talk) 23:14, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
Question. I found a few more adjectives (extraordinary, extraordinary, diverse). Are you all recommending they be omitted?
- "The truck drivers union executed strikes with extraordinary "military precision"". I read Walker's book and it was astonishing but may be better unsaid.
- Ditto for the post-Floyd, "The local insurgency resulted in extraordinary levels of property damage in Minneapolis".
- Ditto for "the park board owns the city's canopy of trees,[389] and nearly all land that borders the city's diverse waterfronts."
- SusanLesch ( talk) 22:56, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- On those three: my thoughts would be to attribute use to attribute the "military precision" quote to the author and then leave off the extraordinary if the source doesn't use that language, the damage would be best to attribute to the author, and I'd recommend ommitting "diverse" in the waterfronts example.
Hog Farm
Talk 23:21, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Done. Thank you, Hog Farm. Hope I'm learning to identify some of the "tone" problems you point out. - SusanLesch ( talk) 19:05, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Another. In the lead, "—the only natural waterfall on the entire length of the Mississippi River." Maybe shorten to, "the only natural waterfall on the Mississippi River"? - SusanLesch ( talk) 20:11, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
- I think that one is fine, unless you really want to trim down the article word count. I haven't forgotten about this review; I just haven't had time - June through August/September is just probably going to be a hectic time for me at work most years now.
Hog Farm
Talk 04:59, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- Oh, good, we'll keep it. No worries, I'll hold on until you are free again. Best wishes, SusanLesch ( talk) 15:24, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
Resuming - I'm skipping the structural racism section for now as that is probably going to be the trickiest section to write and review and I'm simply too tired for that now.
- So you know, that section is fairly tightly written and has been through WP:RSN.
- "Sources disagree on the exact location and elevation of the city's highest point, which is cited as being between 965 and 985 feet (294 and 300 m) above sea level" - is Soper's 1915 figure really relevant anymore? The city has grown so much in the last 108 years that it's not surprising at all that more recent sources give a higher peak as the city expands
- There's no reason to doubt Soper, the academic. Soper's estimate was 2 feet less ("965 feet, or thereabouts") than John Carman gave in 1975. And his location, identified by placenames that still exist, is loosely the same as contemporary sources. However, you have a good point. We can simplify the article by removing one old journal paper. So now we begin the disagreement in 1975 instead of 1915.
- "Shaffer, Scott (February 7, 2018). "Low-density Zoning Threatens Neighborhood Character". Streets.mn. Retrieved March 13, 2023." - community blog, I don't know that this meets the high-quality RS bar for featured articles
- Streets.mn was checked out at WP:RSN. So were several other sources, archived here. Everything passed (except one that had no comment) for noncontroversial use here. We only use it to define the term "non-conforming".
- Would it be worthwhile to provide a sentence or two about the history of neighborhood development in Minneapolis? Right now the section is heavily weighted towards the zonining issue and a brief overview of neighborhood development would provide balance
- For now, I resurrected the Neighborhood Revitalization Program that ran from 1991 to 2011, for which I have a book source. Brought this up to date with a combination of sources.
Done. - SusanLesch ( talk) 20:12, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
Will continue, hopefully soon. Hog Farm Talk 16:27, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- "The least-snowiest winter was 1890–91, when 11.1 inches (28 cm) fell" - cited source is [1] which doesn't seem to support this at all
- Topic is over my pay grade. Inquired at WikiProject Weather.
- Comment. The National Weather Service can't give me a URL. I submitted a data request to the Midwest regional office but the answer was they don't have a URL. So we're using Minnesota state DNR records which are up to date.
- "who claim no religion[255] but among whom one third nationally tend to think a God exists." - I don't know that it's necessary to define that non-religious people claim no religion
- Agreed. Removed that and combined two paras. - SusanLesch ( talk) 16:07, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
- "Minneapolis became the first major American city to allow broadcasting the Muslim call to prayer" - recommend rephrasing. This implies that there is a general ban on the call to prayer itself in its entirety, but the source indicates that Minnesapolis was actually the first to allow all five daily calls (for noise ordinance reasons), rather than the first to allow it at all. It surprises me a bit that this was considered a noise ordinance issue; I lived for awhile in a small town that sounded the danged emergency siren on the hour for every single daylight hour
- I found a history (probably not an admissable source) and you are correct. Reworded, and cut the "major city" stuff. - SusanLesch ( talk) 16:07, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
- " it is the only exchange as of 2023 for hard red spring wheat futures and options" - recommend dropping the reference to options as the source is only really calling out that it's the only source for hard red spring wheat futures
- The source mentions options on futures, but not specific to Minneapolis. Cut, thank you.
Done. - SusanLesch ( talk) 15:24, 27 September 2023 (UTC) Ready for arts and culture, apologies this is taking so long. Hog Farm Talk 00:03, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
- "The center expanded in 2005 with an addition by Herzog & de Meuron.[283]" - I'd cut this sentence; this is more relevant to the Center article than to the overall article on Minneapolis from the more high-level view we need to take with articles on major cities like this. I have similar thoughts to the extensive description of the enlargements to the Mia. The idea is to give a general overview of the topic of Arts in Minneapolis, and I don't know that a blow-by-blow description of building renovations is necessarily part of a general overview of that topic.
- Extra architects cut for both the Walker and Mia, thanks.
- "helped make First Avenue and the 7th Street Entry the heart of American popular music" - "the heart of American popular music" is quite a strong statement to be made in Wikipedia's voice, I'd recommend using some form of direct attribution to a source here
- Good thinking. Removed the footnote, refocused the statement, and attributed to Pitchfork, a reliable source per WP:RSMUSIC.
- I'm unsure of mentioning apparently non-notable concert venues by name. Theoretically any bar with a stage could be considered a concert venue, and we should only really be hitting the highlights here
- Removed venues that don't have Wikipedia articles.
- "After refugees explained the old name was a reminder of their most dreadful days, the American Refugee Committee changed its name to Alight. Alight helps millions of refugees in Africa and Asia with water, shelter, and economic support" - this needs significant work. The connection to Minneapolis is not at any point stated, and the discussion about the name change is not relevant to the city of Minneapolis. I'm sure the organization does good work, but this isn't the place to elaborate too much on a single organization.
- Agreed, better to reduce the elaboration. Leave the name change to the Alight article.
Done. - SusanLesch ( talk) 22:47, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
Ready for the historical museums section, also pinging in SandyGeorgia for another opinion on these points. Hog Farm Talk 01:03, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not in disagreement on any point you've raised so far. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 01:44, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
- "Minneapolis hosts the world's only Somali history museum as of 2021" - The Somali government re-opened its national museum in 2020, and our article on the Somali Museum of Minnesota indicates that it's only possible its the only Somali history museum in the world. This seems to be an awfully strong claim to support with only a website seeking to highlight Minnesota tourism opportunities
- Yes. Used a better source and trimmed that claim away.
- "In 2016, following the killings of Philando Castile and Alton Sterling, Lynx captains wore black shirts as a protest by Black athletes for social change.[370]" - I'd argue that this belongs more in the article for the Lynx
- Took it out.
- "enabled Horace Cleveland to create his finest landscape architecture," - finest should be attributed to the specific author unless you can find a source indicating that this is a consensus view
- Rewrote intro. At first attribution stood out like a sore thumb, but now it's better.
- "Ruhe stopped the state from building a highway through Minnehaha Park, a conflict that the park board appealed to and won in the US Supreme Court. During Ruhe's tenure, the board learned to accommodate growing public participation, and it became an environmental steward when faced with Dutch elm disease and improving water quality.." - is this from those pages in Smith?
- Yes. It's a summary not a quote.
- "In 2022, 500 participants[386] ages 14 to 24 served as Teen Teamworks recruits for on-the-job training in green careers[387] or as future park employees.[388] " - I don't know that this is actually relevant to include; it's not unusual at all for cities to involve teen park workers in things
- I was impressed by the numbers during a pandemic, and reluctantly removed.
I'm open to discussing any of these as they could well be controversial; ready for the government section coming up next. Hog Farm Talk 20:47, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
Done. - SusanLesch ( talk) 18:02, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
- Saving my powder for the Media section, the only place I anticipate pushing back. - SusanLesch ( talk) 17:58, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
Hog Farm have you been through Parks and recreation yet? I don't understand this edit. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:56, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- I had reviewed that section before that edit and had no objections to the sentence in question; the disputed sentence seems like a reasonable attribution of a subject matter expert to me.
Hog Farm
Talk 03:24, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- That is my impression as well; I don't understand the edit summary about a "non-notable book" when it's a notable author, and relevant information. I suggest the content be reinstated; the content is not UNDUE and there are plenty of sources speaking to status of Parks in Minneapolis. We may be excluding rankings from the article, but we know nonetheless where Minneapolis stands on its system of parks.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 15:45, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- Added. - SusanLesch ( talk) 18:02, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
- That is my impression as well; I don't understand the edit summary about a "non-notable book" when it's a notable author, and relevant information. I suggest the content be reinstated; the content is not UNDUE and there are plenty of sources speaking to status of Parks in Minneapolis. We may be excluding rankings from the article, but we know nonetheless where Minneapolis stands on its system of parks.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 15:45, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- "Volunteer missionaries,[439] the Pond brothers got permission at Fort Snelling to teach new farming techniques and a new religion to Chief Cloud Man and his community on the east shore of Bde Maka Ska.[254]" - the first question is when this was occurring, and the who gave them permission is unclear as well. Is this from the Dakota, the US Army at Fort Snelling, or the territorial government?
- Clarified. Permission was granted by the Indian agent at Fort Snelling (that's the US government). Added citation and year.
- "divided between community and magnet" - is it worth linking magnet school here?
- Good idea, done.
- "Some of the magazines published in the city are [...] Artful Living" - we shouldn't be sourcing this to the magazine's own "advertise with us" page
- Changed to a third party site. It's only a directory listing but is likely better.
- I also don't know that we should be listing the magazines for which we don't have an independent source noting its existence; I've found that independent RS sourcing is usually a good test as to if mentioning something is due weight or not
- Can of worms. I like your idea of RS sourcing but lacking that in general this section has become self-sourced which I know is a red flag for Sandy. I have been through this list for Media now maybe four times and am nearly burned out trying to defend every title. Past discussions were with
SandyGeorgia and
Hog Farm. I tried asking
WikiProject Minnesota to try to track down the now-defunct Minnesota Magazine & Publishing Association (which had 95 members in 2007). Some of these
passed WP:RSN where
Banks Irk said "There are a lot of these community-based local news organizations that are basically replacing local newspapers." Wikipedia depends so much on these periodicals I cannot bear to cut them. Next to go would be Architecture Minnesota but
who are we to choose winners and losers?
- Removed Restaurant Franchise Monitor, The Tower, and in newspapers, Dispatch.
- Can of worms. I like your idea of RS sourcing but lacking that in general this section has become self-sourced which I know is a red flag for Sandy. I have been through this list for Media now maybe four times and am nearly burned out trying to defend every title. Past discussions were with
SandyGeorgia and
Hog Farm. I tried asking
WikiProject Minnesota to try to track down the now-defunct Minnesota Magazine & Publishing Association (which had 95 members in 2007). Some of these
passed WP:RSN where
Banks Irk said "There are a lot of these community-based local news organizations that are basically replacing local newspapers." Wikipedia depends so much on these periodicals I cannot bear to cut them. Next to go would be Architecture Minnesota but
who are we to choose winners and losers?
- "about five bus rapid transit (BRT) lines" - cited source lists 6?
- Changed to "about six". Considered saying "several" because at least two more are under construction.
- "Racially discriminatory federal housing policies starting in the 1930s "prevented access to mortgages in areas with Jews, African-Americans and other minorities", and "left a lasting effect on the physical characteristics of the city and the financial well-being of its residents."" - extensive quote should be attributed inline
- Source identified inline.
Done. - SusanLesch ( talk) 14:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
I've now skimmed through pretty much the whole article except for the lead, although chunks of it only rather light skimming because I am rather worn out. Once this last batch reaches resolution and I've gone through the lead, I would prefer to have a fresh and more energetic set of eyes look over it before I take a fuller pass through the article. Hog Farm Talk 01:25, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
- "As of the 2020 census the population was 429,954, making it the largest city in Minnesota and the 46th-most-populous in the United States" - this feels like something that should be mentioned in the body
- Added to Census and estimates.
- Several of the nicknames/motto provided in the lead are not sourced there or anywhere else and should be sourced
- You're right. Everything has a source now.
- "and, to the present day, preserved its financial clout." - ideally we should be sourcing this major claim to something better than a commission apparently run by the city to show how great the city is
- Agreed. The citation is only there because of the
sockpuppet farm that plays with our lead.
- Because this is covered in Economy, omitted the citation altogether.
- Agreed. The citation is only there because of the
sockpuppet farm that plays with our lead.
- "The city's reputation for high quality of life notwithstanding," - I'm not seeing this general claim made directly in the body; for a statement as strong as this it should be worked into the body of the article and not just the lead
- Since rankings were
discouraged by RfC in 2021, it is tough to quantify "quality of life". For the metro area and sometimes by city, the state had a good source.
- Added quality of life to Economy.
- Since rankings were
discouraged by RfC in 2021, it is tough to quantify "quality of life". For the metro area and sometimes by city, the state had a good source.
- File:Log Drivers-by Michael Nowack-1881.jpg - Buidhe can explain this better than me but the licensing isn't as straightforward as it would seem here. The image may be from 1881, but we'd need proof of when it was first published because theoretically it could still be under copyright (the 1928 tag requires publishing by then). See Hirtle chart on Commons; I've had a painting from the 1860s rejected at a FAC or A-class image review before
- Answered below to Buidhe.
- File:Lake Calhoun MN.jpg - not sure on this one. The licensing claims that the copyright holder has released it, but the uploader to wikipedia doesn't seem to be the copyright holder and the file page indicates in multiple places that it would be copyright Larry Kanfer photography 2003. The original source link appears to be gone forever, so it may be better simply to replace this with another image of the lake. File:Minneapolis Skyline (234868322).jpg maybe?
.jpg){kind=link}
- OK. Unfortunately Internet Archive only captured the source after that long-standing photo was gone. I am happy to replace it.
- Picked a scenic one because this is the Geography section. Turned out beautiful, Hog Farm, thank you.
- OK. Unfortunately Internet Archive only captured the source after that long-standing photo was gone. I am happy to replace it.
Done. - SusanLesch ( talk) 15:39, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
I'll look back later, but this is it from me for now. Hog Farm Talk 23:51, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- Depending on when the 1881 photograph was published it could still be under copyright.
- The
Minnesota Historical Society (MNHS) claims its website would be done last summer. I called them a few months ago and there is no recourse except to wait for them. ("Access to Collections online is temporarily unavailable for remote and in-person researchers.") We know that Michael Nowack, the photographer, published
something in 1881 that MNHS states is public domain. I can't speak for the log drivers.
- Removed until MNHS comes back online.
- Their reply today says "Unfortunately, due to unforeseen technical issues, we do not currently have a date for when Collections Online will be available again." - SusanLesch ( talk) 20:45, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
- The
Minnesota Historical Society (MNHS) claims its website would be done last summer. I called them a few months ago and there is no recourse except to wait for them. ("Access to Collections online is temporarily unavailable for remote and in-person researchers.") We know that Michael Nowack, the photographer, published
something in 1881 that MNHS states is public domain. I can't speak for the log drivers.
- Another issue I've noticed in excessively long sections such as "Lumber, waterpower, and flour milling" and single sentence paragraph in the demography section. (
t ·
c)
buidhe 00:55, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
- Good point. That single sentence was to differentiate between people from
India who appeared in close proximity to American
Indian reservations. Turns out that fixing chrono order was what we needed.
- Demographics fixed.
- Good point. That single sentence was to differentiate between people from
India who appeared in close proximity to American
Indian reservations. Turns out that fixing chrono order was what we needed.
Done. - SusanLesch ( talk) 15:39, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
Could you recheck the what the source said on "In 1871, of the thirteen mills sawing lumber in St. Anthony, eight ran on water power and five ran on steam turbines" I believe that the steam turbine was not invented until 1884 and didn't come into real use until the 1900's. Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 16:56, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Surely. From page 146 of Agnes Larson's The White Pine Industry in Minnesota, A History:
In 1871 thirteen mills were cutting lumber at St. Anthony Falls, giving employment to 831 people. Of those thirteen mills, eight were run by water power and five by steam turbine.
The author mentions a "first-class" steam powered sawmill owned by Hersey, Staples and Company in Stillwater, Minnesota built in 1854 (page 17). Around there she writes, "Steam was beginning to come into its own." Her source is a book I've never seen: Hotchkiss, History of Lumber and Forest Industry of Northwest, p. 525, that is unfortunately not in the Internet Archive as far as I can see. - SusanLesch ( talk) 18:24, 14 October 2023 (UTC)- HathiTrust has a copy
here. It appears Wikipedia's article on
steam turbines needs updating, no? -
SusanLesch (
talk) 18:53, 14 October 2023 (UTC) P.S. I double-checked another book The Falls of Saint Anthony by Lucile Kane. She says on page 108 that
Another factor which contributed to the decline of sawmilling at the falls was steam power. As early as the 1850s and 1860s seven steam mills had operated at different times in the falls district.
- SusanLesch ( talk) 21:29, 14 October 2023 (UTC)- My guess is that the author made an error and should have said steam power or steam engines rather than steam turbines. I.E steam engines / steam power was prevalent then, steam turbines were still in future. But if the source said it, that's good enough from a Wikipedia standpoint. Sincerely, North8000 (
talk) 13:54, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Changed the article to say "steam power". Thank you.
- My guess is that the author made an error and should have said steam power or steam engines rather than steam turbines. I.E steam engines / steam power was prevalent then, steam turbines were still in future. But if the source said it, that's good enough from a Wikipedia standpoint. Sincerely, North8000 (
talk) 13:54, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- HathiTrust has a copy
here. It appears Wikipedia's article on
steam turbines needs updating, no? -
SusanLesch (
talk) 18:53, 14 October 2023 (UTC) P.S. I double-checked another book The Falls of Saint Anthony by Lucile Kane. She says on page 108 that
Done. - SusanLesch ( talk) 14:12, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
SG Review
As the article is getting close to Keep territory, it may be helpful to scrutinize the lead more closely. Does it truly summarize the high points? At WP:TFA, would the lead provide the material that would be highlighted in a blurb? Examples I suggest addressing
- As of the 2020 census the population was 429,954, making it the largest city in Minnesota and the 46th-most-populous in the United States.
- Too much detail for the lead, and not really worthy of being the second line in the lead. I suggest removing the 46-th most bit to the body, and only mentioning in the lead "With a 2020 population of 429,954, it is the largest city in Minnesota."
- Extra detail removed. - SusanLesch ( talk) 15:30, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Too much detail for the lead, and not really worthy of being the second line in the lead. I suggest removing the 46-th most bit to the body, and only mentioning in the lead "With a 2020 population of 429,954, it is the largest city in Minnesota."
- The first paragraph is tangled with nine mentions of Minneapolis and Minnesota; I suggest that
Dying might find a way to smooth this out.
- Hi. The lead was constructed for the most part here and here by a sockpuppet farm. I threw up my hands some time ago but am happy to help if I can. - SusanLesch ( talk) 23:31, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- Minneapolis has its origins as the 19th century lumber and flour milling capitals of the world, and, to the present day, preserved its financial clout -->
- Minneapolis was the 19th-century lumber and flour milling capital of the world and has preserved its financial clout into the 21st century.
- Fixed.
- waterfall on the entire length of the Mississippi River --> on the Mississippi River
- Fixed.
- on
a section ofland north of Fort Snelling.- Fixed.
- Its growth is attributed. --> its growth was ? In the 19th century ?? Early growth was ??
- Fixed.
- metropolis located far from competing neighbors,[15] Minneapolis is the birthplace of General Mills, the Pillsbury brand, and the Target Corporation. ... No relationship between these two clauses
- Fixed.
Part done. - SusanLesch ( talk) 23:31, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
I hope Dying, well-versed in fine-tuning leads towards writing the TFA blurb, will have a look and lend a hand. I think the lead could be much better. First pass only, will continue, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 12:42, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- I'll continue my review on talk. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 13:08, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
dying
thanks for the ping and praise, SandyGeorgia! SusanLesch, this will admittedly be the first time i contribute to either fac or far, so please let me know if there is anything i am doing incorrectly or if you have any suggestions for improvement.
- Greetings, Dying! Excited to work with you.
offhand, three things about this lead jump out at me.
- a decent number of statements appear to have been made as if minneapolis has something to prove. i think, to a neutral reader, this makes the city less impressive than it really is.
- Wonderful comment (in line with some of Hog Farm's ideas and SandyGeorgia's work to eradicate false claims). Maybe you can help tone it down.
- the lead seems to be a lot longer than those of comparable articles. because minneapolis is 46th on the list of u.s. cities by population, i also specifically looked at the articles for oakland (45th) and tulsa (47th), and both of them have leads that are roughly 20–30% shorter, even though they have longer article bodies.
- Maybe four paragraphs should do it per WP:LEAD. You're right we've gone over. One point, I would try to compare cities that are featured articles ( Wikipedia doesn't have many). Boston, Cleveland, Washington, DC, Ann Arbor, Michigan (although I don't know which ones are recent FAs). Our guidelines at WP:USCITIES has more info.
- considering that minneapolis has recently been highly prominent in world news due to an incident that sparked a worldwide protest movement, it seems strange that this only seems to be referenced obliquely in the lead. (full disclosure: i started a few of the articles related to the protests.) for comparison, the article leads for the cities of wuhan, beirut, and mariupol all not only explicitly mention the unfortunate events that have recently brought them international attention, but also provide links to articles that cover the events in further depth.
- I agree with you but sadly lost an RfC on the subject.
would you prefer to address these points before i perform a more in-depth copyedit? dying ( talk) 10:59, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Hope that's enough to start. Good to meet you, Dying. -
SusanLesch (
talk) 13:43, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- I suggest Cleveland is the better example for comparison for the direction of the lead; it's a continuously maintained FA, and I'm uncomfortable with the idea of using non-FAs for guidance.
SusanLesch are you comfortable then with having dying work directly on the lead? I see good room for reduction in the third paragraph and fifth (current city appointments are also recentism).
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 14:22, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, indeed. -15:01, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Grand; dying, one way to make work at FAR easier on other reviewers and the Coords who have to close is to start a sub-section on the talk page of this FAR, as you can see I've done. Then, when you're done, you can summarize back to this page. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 15:05, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, indeed. -15:01, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- I suggest Cleveland is the better example for comparison for the direction of the lead; it's a continuously maintained FA, and I'm uncomfortable with the idea of using non-FAs for guidance.
SusanLesch are you comfortable then with having dying work directly on the lead? I see good room for reduction in the third paragraph and fifth (current city appointments are also recentism).
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 14:22, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Hope that's enough to start. Good to meet you, Dying. -
SusanLesch (
talk) 13:43, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria ( talk) 05:11, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'm working on SandyGeorgia's review on talk in my sandbox. Making progress every day. - SusanLesch ( talk) 14:45, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
SandyGeorgia and Dying: Done with SandyGeorgia's review. A couple questions and a note are marked. Dying, you could do our lead now if you can find the time. Sandy said she's busy elsewhere until at least Friday. - SusanLesch ( talk) 23:51, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
- Will get on it this weekend.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 12:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- Apologies. I have to be out tomorrow early and need a day or two to complete an item I had thought was done. -
SusanLesch (
talk) 23:13, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- Section done.
Dying do you have a plan to go ahead with this lead? -
SusanLesch (
talk) 21:38, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- sorry for the delay, SusanLesch! unfortunately, another incident on wikipedia took up a good deal of my time recently. i have been working on the lead intermittently, but recently realized that it might be easier to start with the draft of a tfa blurb and then work backwards. i should post something on the talk page within a day or two. dying ( talk) 22:59, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- Section done.
Dying do you have a plan to go ahead with this lead? -
SusanLesch (
talk) 21:38, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- Apologies. I have to be out tomorrow early and need a day or two to complete an item I had thought was done. -
SusanLesch (
talk) 23:13, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- Could we get an update on status here?
Nikkimaria (
talk) 04:29, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
- apologies! my old machine recently gave up on me, and although i was lucky enough to be able to revive an even older machine, i've been falling behind in everything as a result, and i admittedly have not been able to prioritize this. i still intend to finish revising the lead, if that is okay. dying ( talk) 09:59, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
- Oh, my! Interruptions in hardware (and email) are the worst. When your stress level recovers, yes, please have at the lead. - SusanLesch ( talk) 18:19, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
RE: Climate -- the new growing zone map ( https://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/) has the entire city and much of the surrounding suburbs in zone 5a now. Can someone make this change?
- Done. Thank you, Sanctacruce21. - SusanLesch ( talk) 19:09, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria ( talk) 05:14, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- Nikkimaria, my understanding is that Hog Farm and SandyGeorgia's reviews are done (both were lengthy, detailed reviews). Dying had a machine failure so the lead remains about the same, but they were able to write a TFA blurb (on talk). I made a couple more improvements to the article and ran IABot last week. Generally we had no status change since November. A couple questions are outstanding on Sandy's review (on talk). Is anyone available to !vote keep? - SusanLesch ( talk) 14:42, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- @ George Ho, Z1720, and Hog Farm: are you available? Sandy said in October "As the article is getting close to Keep territory...." She and I cleaned up this article over the past couple years. Sorry to ping you. Best wishes, SusanLesch ( talk) 15:29, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
- I'll take a look but have no idea when I can get to it. I just moved last weekend; I'm not sure which box my primary laptop is in and we don't have reliable internet access set up yet. Hog Farm Talk 16:34, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, Hog Farm. While we're waiting I'll try to update Climate. - SusanLesch ( talk) 20:46, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
- I am working our polls for the presidential primary in the next two weeks and turn into a pumpkin tomorrow until March 7. In the meantime I tried to recruit a weather expert at the WikiProject. (Outdated climate data seems to be a hurdle with lots of old FAs.) - SusanLesch ( talk) 19:08, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- Susan - apologies for the delay in getting to this; this is at the top of my priority list now. Hog Farm Talk 14:49, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- I've started re-reviewing at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/Minneapolis/archive1#HF Hog Farm Talk 00:17, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- My concerns have been pretty much addressed, but there's an RFC ongoing with this now, so I'll hold off on making a declaration for now, until things stabilize out. Hog Farm Talk 15:23, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- The RfC closed. Our perennial critic thanked me twice silently for the follow up so I think we're free to move on. - SusanLesch ( talk) 13:32, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- @ Hog Farm: ↑ Nikkimaria ( talk) 04:05, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
Update to anyone worried about the climate box, I updated the data so it goes back to 1873, with a note explaining where the weather station is. I also removed some unnecessary parts of the table that aren't accessible in the NOWData source. Thanks SusanLesch ( talk · contribs) for reaching out to the weather WikiProject. ♫ Hurricanehink ( talk) 22:33, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
- Beautiful, elegant job. Thank you so much,
Hurricanehink. -
SusanLesch (
talk) 03:43, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Worked out on Minneapolis talk page. I was mistaken that 2020 climate normals are outdated. Next update will be 2030. - SusanLesch ( talk) 14:38, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
Dying and all, I wrote a new lead for discussion on the Minneapolis talk page. - SusanLesch ( talk) 14:34, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- Lead is done. My understanding is that's the last step of FAR. - SusanLesch ( talk) 22:54, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
Minneapolis
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Notified: Mass Message Send notifications, talk page notice 2023-01-28
I am the nominator of the 2007 Minneapolis FAC and have been working to bring it to current FA standards since at least 2020 through several talk page archives, with SandyGeorgia looking in. I believe it is at today's FA standard, and ready for review at FAR. Thank you. - SusanLesch ( talk) 21:17, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- I never did finish my pre-FAR review on article talk; will try to get back to that by leaving comments here this weekend. Hog Farm Talk 00:44, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
I need to give the new Turnpike album a second listen anyways, so might as well start going through this tonight. Saving the lead for last ...
- I know that newer style of interactive map has its benefits, but is there any way to also show the reader at a glance where Minneapolis is located in the country, rather than making them get into the interactive map, fiddle with the zoom system which is kinda balky on mobile, and then try to figure out that information?
- Yes. I guess WikiProject Maps added the interactive maps recently. I placed an old style pushpin map under theirs. Is this OK?
- "The US Army Corps of Engineers built a concrete dike that held in 1876" - needs rephrased somehow. Current phrasing implies that there was some sort of particulalry important holding that happened in 1876
- Restored an old version with more details, thank you. It took the Corps of Engineers 6 years or more to stop the Eastman Tunnel leak.
- So do the sources indicate why exactly the milling and logging declined? From what I can tell the milling seems to have taken over about the time the logging went down, but it's not obvious from a quick skim of sources if the milling directly supplanted the lumber, or if the local forests had been extirpated, or something else altogether
- Excellent point. I added a sentence in two places, demarcating the demise of lumbering and flour milling. Does it make better sense now?
- "With the Fuji-Ya restaurant leading the way on the west bank," - is this a particularly important detail to note? I had noticed when I was doing my informal review on the talk page several months again that the article had a tendency to make unnecessary name drops
- Not absolutely necessary and has been removed.
- Susan, I'd like to hear your and Sandy's thoughts on this, but I have some tone concerns here. Stuff like "formidable Institute of Technology", "in the end, to the nation and the globe", and others.
- My shorthand, and no problem to omit.
- The Institute of Technology was indispensible, which the source suggests, but was perhaps overrepresented (say, in comparison to other institutions) by the word "formidable" (we had that discussion before about " fabulous" which I removed).
- Again a shorthand way of saying "nationally and internationally", opting for shorter words. Omitted.
- My shorthand, and no problem to omit.
- " and supplied about half the electrical needs of the US military during World War II" - the sources actually says "during World War II the firm produced nearly half of all the electric plants used by the American military during the conflict". There is an important distinction between "electrical needs" which implies all electricity usage, and then producing half of all generators, which doesn't really equate to half of electricity usage
- Good catch, Hog Farm. Reworded that sentence to reflect the sources, and say more precisely, "and supplied about half the generator sets the US military used during World War II."
Stopping here for now. Hog Farm Talk 03:19, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think either of those examples of tone are necessary, and they should be omitted unless the source specifically supports them, in which case they should be quoted and attributed. Thanks for reviewing, HF; it's been several months since I last took a deep dive.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 03:27, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you, Hog Farm. I was looking forward to your comments and they didn't disappoint. Everything done as indicated inline above, with one exception. Looking for an alternate way to say "nation and the globe." -
SusanLesch (
talk) 23:14, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Done. I'm embarrassed to say the phrase is a too-close paraphrase of William Lass. Much better to omit it. - SusanLesch ( talk) 00:48, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you, Hog Farm. I was looking forward to your comments and they didn't disappoint. Everything done as indicated inline above, with one exception. Looking for an alternate way to say "nation and the globe." -
SusanLesch (
talk) 23:14, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
Question. I found a few more adjectives (extraordinary, extraordinary, diverse). Are you all recommending they be omitted?
- "The truck drivers union executed strikes with extraordinary "military precision"". I read Walker's book and it was astonishing but may be better unsaid.
- Ditto for the post-Floyd, "The local insurgency resulted in extraordinary levels of property damage in Minneapolis".
- Ditto for "the park board owns the city's canopy of trees,[389] and nearly all land that borders the city's diverse waterfronts."
- SusanLesch ( talk) 22:56, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- On those three: my thoughts would be to attribute use to attribute the "military precision" quote to the author and then leave off the extraordinary if the source doesn't use that language, the damage would be best to attribute to the author, and I'd recommend ommitting "diverse" in the waterfronts example.
Hog Farm
Talk 23:21, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Done. Thank you, Hog Farm. Hope I'm learning to identify some of the "tone" problems you point out. - SusanLesch ( talk) 19:05, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Another. In the lead, "—the only natural waterfall on the entire length of the Mississippi River." Maybe shorten to, "the only natural waterfall on the Mississippi River"? - SusanLesch ( talk) 20:11, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
- I think that one is fine, unless you really want to trim down the article word count. I haven't forgotten about this review; I just haven't had time - June through August/September is just probably going to be a hectic time for me at work most years now.
Hog Farm
Talk 04:59, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- Oh, good, we'll keep it. No worries, I'll hold on until you are free again. Best wishes, SusanLesch ( talk) 15:24, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
Resuming - I'm skipping the structural racism section for now as that is probably going to be the trickiest section to write and review and I'm simply too tired for that now.
- So you know, that section is fairly tightly written and has been through WP:RSN.
- "Sources disagree on the exact location and elevation of the city's highest point, which is cited as being between 965 and 985 feet (294 and 300 m) above sea level" - is Soper's 1915 figure really relevant anymore? The city has grown so much in the last 108 years that it's not surprising at all that more recent sources give a higher peak as the city expands
- There's no reason to doubt Soper, the academic. Soper's estimate was 2 feet less ("965 feet, or thereabouts") than John Carman gave in 1975. And his location, identified by placenames that still exist, is loosely the same as contemporary sources. However, you have a good point. We can simplify the article by removing one old journal paper. So now we begin the disagreement in 1975 instead of 1915.
- "Shaffer, Scott (February 7, 2018). "Low-density Zoning Threatens Neighborhood Character". Streets.mn. Retrieved March 13, 2023." - community blog, I don't know that this meets the high-quality RS bar for featured articles
- Streets.mn was checked out at WP:RSN. So were several other sources, archived here. Everything passed (except one that had no comment) for noncontroversial use here. We only use it to define the term "non-conforming".
- Would it be worthwhile to provide a sentence or two about the history of neighborhood development in Minneapolis? Right now the section is heavily weighted towards the zonining issue and a brief overview of neighborhood development would provide balance
- For now, I resurrected the Neighborhood Revitalization Program that ran from 1991 to 2011, for which I have a book source. Brought this up to date with a combination of sources.
Done. - SusanLesch ( talk) 20:12, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
Will continue, hopefully soon. Hog Farm Talk 16:27, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- "The least-snowiest winter was 1890–91, when 11.1 inches (28 cm) fell" - cited source is [1] which doesn't seem to support this at all
- Topic is over my pay grade. Inquired at WikiProject Weather.
- Comment. The National Weather Service can't give me a URL. I submitted a data request to the Midwest regional office but the answer was they don't have a URL. So we're using Minnesota state DNR records which are up to date.
- "who claim no religion[255] but among whom one third nationally tend to think a God exists." - I don't know that it's necessary to define that non-religious people claim no religion
- Agreed. Removed that and combined two paras. - SusanLesch ( talk) 16:07, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
- "Minneapolis became the first major American city to allow broadcasting the Muslim call to prayer" - recommend rephrasing. This implies that there is a general ban on the call to prayer itself in its entirety, but the source indicates that Minnesapolis was actually the first to allow all five daily calls (for noise ordinance reasons), rather than the first to allow it at all. It surprises me a bit that this was considered a noise ordinance issue; I lived for awhile in a small town that sounded the danged emergency siren on the hour for every single daylight hour
- I found a history (probably not an admissable source) and you are correct. Reworded, and cut the "major city" stuff. - SusanLesch ( talk) 16:07, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
- " it is the only exchange as of 2023 for hard red spring wheat futures and options" - recommend dropping the reference to options as the source is only really calling out that it's the only source for hard red spring wheat futures
- The source mentions options on futures, but not specific to Minneapolis. Cut, thank you.
Done. - SusanLesch ( talk) 15:24, 27 September 2023 (UTC) Ready for arts and culture, apologies this is taking so long. Hog Farm Talk 00:03, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
- "The center expanded in 2005 with an addition by Herzog & de Meuron.[283]" - I'd cut this sentence; this is more relevant to the Center article than to the overall article on Minneapolis from the more high-level view we need to take with articles on major cities like this. I have similar thoughts to the extensive description of the enlargements to the Mia. The idea is to give a general overview of the topic of Arts in Minneapolis, and I don't know that a blow-by-blow description of building renovations is necessarily part of a general overview of that topic.
- Extra architects cut for both the Walker and Mia, thanks.
- "helped make First Avenue and the 7th Street Entry the heart of American popular music" - "the heart of American popular music" is quite a strong statement to be made in Wikipedia's voice, I'd recommend using some form of direct attribution to a source here
- Good thinking. Removed the footnote, refocused the statement, and attributed to Pitchfork, a reliable source per WP:RSMUSIC.
- I'm unsure of mentioning apparently non-notable concert venues by name. Theoretically any bar with a stage could be considered a concert venue, and we should only really be hitting the highlights here
- Removed venues that don't have Wikipedia articles.
- "After refugees explained the old name was a reminder of their most dreadful days, the American Refugee Committee changed its name to Alight. Alight helps millions of refugees in Africa and Asia with water, shelter, and economic support" - this needs significant work. The connection to Minneapolis is not at any point stated, and the discussion about the name change is not relevant to the city of Minneapolis. I'm sure the organization does good work, but this isn't the place to elaborate too much on a single organization.
- Agreed, better to reduce the elaboration. Leave the name change to the Alight article.
Done. - SusanLesch ( talk) 22:47, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
Ready for the historical museums section, also pinging in SandyGeorgia for another opinion on these points. Hog Farm Talk 01:03, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not in disagreement on any point you've raised so far. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 01:44, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
- "Minneapolis hosts the world's only Somali history museum as of 2021" - The Somali government re-opened its national museum in 2020, and our article on the Somali Museum of Minnesota indicates that it's only possible its the only Somali history museum in the world. This seems to be an awfully strong claim to support with only a website seeking to highlight Minnesota tourism opportunities
- Yes. Used a better source and trimmed that claim away.
- "In 2016, following the killings of Philando Castile and Alton Sterling, Lynx captains wore black shirts as a protest by Black athletes for social change.[370]" - I'd argue that this belongs more in the article for the Lynx
- Took it out.
- "enabled Horace Cleveland to create his finest landscape architecture," - finest should be attributed to the specific author unless you can find a source indicating that this is a consensus view
- Rewrote intro. At first attribution stood out like a sore thumb, but now it's better.
- "Ruhe stopped the state from building a highway through Minnehaha Park, a conflict that the park board appealed to and won in the US Supreme Court. During Ruhe's tenure, the board learned to accommodate growing public participation, and it became an environmental steward when faced with Dutch elm disease and improving water quality.." - is this from those pages in Smith?
- Yes. It's a summary not a quote.
- "In 2022, 500 participants[386] ages 14 to 24 served as Teen Teamworks recruits for on-the-job training in green careers[387] or as future park employees.[388] " - I don't know that this is actually relevant to include; it's not unusual at all for cities to involve teen park workers in things
- I was impressed by the numbers during a pandemic, and reluctantly removed.
I'm open to discussing any of these as they could well be controversial; ready for the government section coming up next. Hog Farm Talk 20:47, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
Done. - SusanLesch ( talk) 18:02, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
- Saving my powder for the Media section, the only place I anticipate pushing back. - SusanLesch ( talk) 17:58, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
Hog Farm have you been through Parks and recreation yet? I don't understand this edit. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:56, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- I had reviewed that section before that edit and had no objections to the sentence in question; the disputed sentence seems like a reasonable attribution of a subject matter expert to me.
Hog Farm
Talk 03:24, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- That is my impression as well; I don't understand the edit summary about a "non-notable book" when it's a notable author, and relevant information. I suggest the content be reinstated; the content is not UNDUE and there are plenty of sources speaking to status of Parks in Minneapolis. We may be excluding rankings from the article, but we know nonetheless where Minneapolis stands on its system of parks.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 15:45, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- Added. - SusanLesch ( talk) 18:02, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
- That is my impression as well; I don't understand the edit summary about a "non-notable book" when it's a notable author, and relevant information. I suggest the content be reinstated; the content is not UNDUE and there are plenty of sources speaking to status of Parks in Minneapolis. We may be excluding rankings from the article, but we know nonetheless where Minneapolis stands on its system of parks.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 15:45, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- "Volunteer missionaries,[439] the Pond brothers got permission at Fort Snelling to teach new farming techniques and a new religion to Chief Cloud Man and his community on the east shore of Bde Maka Ska.[254]" - the first question is when this was occurring, and the who gave them permission is unclear as well. Is this from the Dakota, the US Army at Fort Snelling, or the territorial government?
- Clarified. Permission was granted by the Indian agent at Fort Snelling (that's the US government). Added citation and year.
- "divided between community and magnet" - is it worth linking magnet school here?
- Good idea, done.
- "Some of the magazines published in the city are [...] Artful Living" - we shouldn't be sourcing this to the magazine's own "advertise with us" page
- Changed to a third party site. It's only a directory listing but is likely better.
- I also don't know that we should be listing the magazines for which we don't have an independent source noting its existence; I've found that independent RS sourcing is usually a good test as to if mentioning something is due weight or not
- Can of worms. I like your idea of RS sourcing but lacking that in general this section has become self-sourced which I know is a red flag for Sandy. I have been through this list for Media now maybe four times and am nearly burned out trying to defend every title. Past discussions were with
SandyGeorgia and
Hog Farm. I tried asking
WikiProject Minnesota to try to track down the now-defunct Minnesota Magazine & Publishing Association (which had 95 members in 2007). Some of these
passed WP:RSN where
Banks Irk said "There are a lot of these community-based local news organizations that are basically replacing local newspapers." Wikipedia depends so much on these periodicals I cannot bear to cut them. Next to go would be Architecture Minnesota but
who are we to choose winners and losers?
- Removed Restaurant Franchise Monitor, The Tower, and in newspapers, Dispatch.
- Can of worms. I like your idea of RS sourcing but lacking that in general this section has become self-sourced which I know is a red flag for Sandy. I have been through this list for Media now maybe four times and am nearly burned out trying to defend every title. Past discussions were with
SandyGeorgia and
Hog Farm. I tried asking
WikiProject Minnesota to try to track down the now-defunct Minnesota Magazine & Publishing Association (which had 95 members in 2007). Some of these
passed WP:RSN where
Banks Irk said "There are a lot of these community-based local news organizations that are basically replacing local newspapers." Wikipedia depends so much on these periodicals I cannot bear to cut them. Next to go would be Architecture Minnesota but
who are we to choose winners and losers?
- "about five bus rapid transit (BRT) lines" - cited source lists 6?
- Changed to "about six". Considered saying "several" because at least two more are under construction.
- "Racially discriminatory federal housing policies starting in the 1930s "prevented access to mortgages in areas with Jews, African-Americans and other minorities", and "left a lasting effect on the physical characteristics of the city and the financial well-being of its residents."" - extensive quote should be attributed inline
- Source identified inline.
Done. - SusanLesch ( talk) 14:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
I've now skimmed through pretty much the whole article except for the lead, although chunks of it only rather light skimming because I am rather worn out. Once this last batch reaches resolution and I've gone through the lead, I would prefer to have a fresh and more energetic set of eyes look over it before I take a fuller pass through the article. Hog Farm Talk 01:25, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
- "As of the 2020 census the population was 429,954, making it the largest city in Minnesota and the 46th-most-populous in the United States" - this feels like something that should be mentioned in the body
- Added to Census and estimates.
- Several of the nicknames/motto provided in the lead are not sourced there or anywhere else and should be sourced
- You're right. Everything has a source now.
- "and, to the present day, preserved its financial clout." - ideally we should be sourcing this major claim to something better than a commission apparently run by the city to show how great the city is
- Agreed. The citation is only there because of the
sockpuppet farm that plays with our lead.
- Because this is covered in Economy, omitted the citation altogether.
- Agreed. The citation is only there because of the
sockpuppet farm that plays with our lead.
- "The city's reputation for high quality of life notwithstanding," - I'm not seeing this general claim made directly in the body; for a statement as strong as this it should be worked into the body of the article and not just the lead
- Since rankings were
discouraged by RfC in 2021, it is tough to quantify "quality of life". For the metro area and sometimes by city, the state had a good source.
- Added quality of life to Economy.
- Since rankings were
discouraged by RfC in 2021, it is tough to quantify "quality of life". For the metro area and sometimes by city, the state had a good source.
- File:Log Drivers-by Michael Nowack-1881.jpg - Buidhe can explain this better than me but the licensing isn't as straightforward as it would seem here. The image may be from 1881, but we'd need proof of when it was first published because theoretically it could still be under copyright (the 1928 tag requires publishing by then). See Hirtle chart on Commons; I've had a painting from the 1860s rejected at a FAC or A-class image review before
- Answered below to Buidhe.
- File:Lake Calhoun MN.jpg - not sure on this one. The licensing claims that the copyright holder has released it, but the uploader to wikipedia doesn't seem to be the copyright holder and the file page indicates in multiple places that it would be copyright Larry Kanfer photography 2003. The original source link appears to be gone forever, so it may be better simply to replace this with another image of the lake. File:Minneapolis Skyline (234868322).jpg maybe?
- OK. Unfortunately Internet Archive only captured the source after that long-standing photo was gone. I am happy to replace it.
- Picked a scenic one because this is the Geography section. Turned out beautiful, Hog Farm, thank you.
- OK. Unfortunately Internet Archive only captured the source after that long-standing photo was gone. I am happy to replace it.
Done. - SusanLesch ( talk) 15:39, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
I'll look back later, but this is it from me for now. Hog Farm Talk 23:51, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- Depending on when the 1881 photograph was published it could still be under copyright.
- The
Minnesota Historical Society (MNHS) claims its website would be done last summer. I called them a few months ago and there is no recourse except to wait for them. ("Access to Collections online is temporarily unavailable for remote and in-person researchers.") We know that Michael Nowack, the photographer, published
something in 1881 that MNHS states is public domain. I can't speak for the log drivers.
- Removed until MNHS comes back online.
- Their reply today says "Unfortunately, due to unforeseen technical issues, we do not currently have a date for when Collections Online will be available again." - SusanLesch ( talk) 20:45, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
- The
Minnesota Historical Society (MNHS) claims its website would be done last summer. I called them a few months ago and there is no recourse except to wait for them. ("Access to Collections online is temporarily unavailable for remote and in-person researchers.") We know that Michael Nowack, the photographer, published
something in 1881 that MNHS states is public domain. I can't speak for the log drivers.
- Another issue I've noticed in excessively long sections such as "Lumber, waterpower, and flour milling" and single sentence paragraph in the demography section. (
t ·
c)
buidhe 00:55, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
- Good point. That single sentence was to differentiate between people from
India who appeared in close proximity to American
Indian reservations. Turns out that fixing chrono order was what we needed.
- Demographics fixed.
- Good point. That single sentence was to differentiate between people from
India who appeared in close proximity to American
Indian reservations. Turns out that fixing chrono order was what we needed.
Done. - SusanLesch ( talk) 15:39, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
Could you recheck the what the source said on "In 1871, of the thirteen mills sawing lumber in St. Anthony, eight ran on water power and five ran on steam turbines" I believe that the steam turbine was not invented until 1884 and didn't come into real use until the 1900's. Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 16:56, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Surely. From page 146 of Agnes Larson's The White Pine Industry in Minnesota, A History:
In 1871 thirteen mills were cutting lumber at St. Anthony Falls, giving employment to 831 people. Of those thirteen mills, eight were run by water power and five by steam turbine.
The author mentions a "first-class" steam powered sawmill owned by Hersey, Staples and Company in Stillwater, Minnesota built in 1854 (page 17). Around there she writes, "Steam was beginning to come into its own." Her source is a book I've never seen: Hotchkiss, History of Lumber and Forest Industry of Northwest, p. 525, that is unfortunately not in the Internet Archive as far as I can see. - SusanLesch ( talk) 18:24, 14 October 2023 (UTC)- HathiTrust has a copy
here. It appears Wikipedia's article on
steam turbines needs updating, no? -
SusanLesch (
talk) 18:53, 14 October 2023 (UTC) P.S. I double-checked another book The Falls of Saint Anthony by Lucile Kane. She says on page 108 that
Another factor which contributed to the decline of sawmilling at the falls was steam power. As early as the 1850s and 1860s seven steam mills had operated at different times in the falls district.
- SusanLesch ( talk) 21:29, 14 October 2023 (UTC)- My guess is that the author made an error and should have said steam power or steam engines rather than steam turbines. I.E steam engines / steam power was prevalent then, steam turbines were still in future. But if the source said it, that's good enough from a Wikipedia standpoint. Sincerely, North8000 (
talk) 13:54, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Changed the article to say "steam power". Thank you.
- My guess is that the author made an error and should have said steam power or steam engines rather than steam turbines. I.E steam engines / steam power was prevalent then, steam turbines were still in future. But if the source said it, that's good enough from a Wikipedia standpoint. Sincerely, North8000 (
talk) 13:54, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- HathiTrust has a copy
here. It appears Wikipedia's article on
steam turbines needs updating, no? -
SusanLesch (
talk) 18:53, 14 October 2023 (UTC) P.S. I double-checked another book The Falls of Saint Anthony by Lucile Kane. She says on page 108 that
Done. - SusanLesch ( talk) 14:12, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
SG Review
As the article is getting close to Keep territory, it may be helpful to scrutinize the lead more closely. Does it truly summarize the high points? At WP:TFA, would the lead provide the material that would be highlighted in a blurb? Examples I suggest addressing
- As of the 2020 census the population was 429,954, making it the largest city in Minnesota and the 46th-most-populous in the United States.
- Too much detail for the lead, and not really worthy of being the second line in the lead. I suggest removing the 46-th most bit to the body, and only mentioning in the lead "With a 2020 population of 429,954, it is the largest city in Minnesota."
- Extra detail removed. - SusanLesch ( talk) 15:30, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Too much detail for the lead, and not really worthy of being the second line in the lead. I suggest removing the 46-th most bit to the body, and only mentioning in the lead "With a 2020 population of 429,954, it is the largest city in Minnesota."
- The first paragraph is tangled with nine mentions of Minneapolis and Minnesota; I suggest that
Dying might find a way to smooth this out.
- Hi. The lead was constructed for the most part here and here by a sockpuppet farm. I threw up my hands some time ago but am happy to help if I can. - SusanLesch ( talk) 23:31, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- Minneapolis has its origins as the 19th century lumber and flour milling capitals of the world, and, to the present day, preserved its financial clout -->
- Minneapolis was the 19th-century lumber and flour milling capital of the world and has preserved its financial clout into the 21st century.
- Fixed.
- waterfall on the entire length of the Mississippi River --> on the Mississippi River
- Fixed.
- on
a section ofland north of Fort Snelling.- Fixed.
- Its growth is attributed. --> its growth was ? In the 19th century ?? Early growth was ??
- Fixed.
- metropolis located far from competing neighbors,[15] Minneapolis is the birthplace of General Mills, the Pillsbury brand, and the Target Corporation. ... No relationship between these two clauses
- Fixed.
Part done. - SusanLesch ( talk) 23:31, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
I hope Dying, well-versed in fine-tuning leads towards writing the TFA blurb, will have a look and lend a hand. I think the lead could be much better. First pass only, will continue, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 12:42, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- I'll continue my review on talk. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 13:08, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
dying
thanks for the ping and praise, SandyGeorgia! SusanLesch, this will admittedly be the first time i contribute to either fac or far, so please let me know if there is anything i am doing incorrectly or if you have any suggestions for improvement.
- Greetings, Dying! Excited to work with you.
offhand, three things about this lead jump out at me.
- a decent number of statements appear to have been made as if minneapolis has something to prove. i think, to a neutral reader, this makes the city less impressive than it really is.
- Wonderful comment (in line with some of Hog Farm's ideas and SandyGeorgia's work to eradicate false claims). Maybe you can help tone it down.
- the lead seems to be a lot longer than those of comparable articles. because minneapolis is 46th on the list of u.s. cities by population, i also specifically looked at the articles for oakland (45th) and tulsa (47th), and both of them have leads that are roughly 20–30% shorter, even though they have longer article bodies.
- Maybe four paragraphs should do it per WP:LEAD. You're right we've gone over. One point, I would try to compare cities that are featured articles ( Wikipedia doesn't have many). Boston, Cleveland, Washington, DC, Ann Arbor, Michigan (although I don't know which ones are recent FAs). Our guidelines at WP:USCITIES has more info.
- considering that minneapolis has recently been highly prominent in world news due to an incident that sparked a worldwide protest movement, it seems strange that this only seems to be referenced obliquely in the lead. (full disclosure: i started a few of the articles related to the protests.) for comparison, the article leads for the cities of wuhan, beirut, and mariupol all not only explicitly mention the unfortunate events that have recently brought them international attention, but also provide links to articles that cover the events in further depth.
- I agree with you but sadly lost an RfC on the subject.
would you prefer to address these points before i perform a more in-depth copyedit? dying ( talk) 10:59, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Hope that's enough to start. Good to meet you, Dying. -
SusanLesch (
talk) 13:43, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- I suggest Cleveland is the better example for comparison for the direction of the lead; it's a continuously maintained FA, and I'm uncomfortable with the idea of using non-FAs for guidance.
SusanLesch are you comfortable then with having dying work directly on the lead? I see good room for reduction in the third paragraph and fifth (current city appointments are also recentism).
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 14:22, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, indeed. -15:01, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Grand; dying, one way to make work at FAR easier on other reviewers and the Coords who have to close is to start a sub-section on the talk page of this FAR, as you can see I've done. Then, when you're done, you can summarize back to this page. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 15:05, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, indeed. -15:01, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- I suggest Cleveland is the better example for comparison for the direction of the lead; it's a continuously maintained FA, and I'm uncomfortable with the idea of using non-FAs for guidance.
SusanLesch are you comfortable then with having dying work directly on the lead? I see good room for reduction in the third paragraph and fifth (current city appointments are also recentism).
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 14:22, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Hope that's enough to start. Good to meet you, Dying. -
SusanLesch (
talk) 13:43, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria ( talk) 05:11, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'm working on SandyGeorgia's review on talk in my sandbox. Making progress every day. - SusanLesch ( talk) 14:45, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
SandyGeorgia and Dying: Done with SandyGeorgia's review. A couple questions and a note are marked. Dying, you could do our lead now if you can find the time. Sandy said she's busy elsewhere until at least Friday. - SusanLesch ( talk) 23:51, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
- Will get on it this weekend.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 12:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- Apologies. I have to be out tomorrow early and need a day or two to complete an item I had thought was done. -
SusanLesch (
talk) 23:13, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- Section done.
Dying do you have a plan to go ahead with this lead? -
SusanLesch (
talk) 21:38, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- sorry for the delay, SusanLesch! unfortunately, another incident on wikipedia took up a good deal of my time recently. i have been working on the lead intermittently, but recently realized that it might be easier to start with the draft of a tfa blurb and then work backwards. i should post something on the talk page within a day or two. dying ( talk) 22:59, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- Section done.
Dying do you have a plan to go ahead with this lead? -
SusanLesch (
talk) 21:38, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- Apologies. I have to be out tomorrow early and need a day or two to complete an item I had thought was done. -
SusanLesch (
talk) 23:13, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- Could we get an update on status here?
Nikkimaria (
talk) 04:29, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
- apologies! my old machine recently gave up on me, and although i was lucky enough to be able to revive an even older machine, i've been falling behind in everything as a result, and i admittedly have not been able to prioritize this. i still intend to finish revising the lead, if that is okay. dying ( talk) 09:59, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
- Oh, my! Interruptions in hardware (and email) are the worst. When your stress level recovers, yes, please have at the lead. - SusanLesch ( talk) 18:19, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
RE: Climate -- the new growing zone map ( https://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/) has the entire city and much of the surrounding suburbs in zone 5a now. Can someone make this change?
- Done. Thank you, Sanctacruce21. - SusanLesch ( talk) 19:09, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria ( talk) 05:14, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- Nikkimaria, my understanding is that Hog Farm and SandyGeorgia's reviews are done (both were lengthy, detailed reviews). Dying had a machine failure so the lead remains about the same, but they were able to write a TFA blurb (on talk). I made a couple more improvements to the article and ran IABot last week. Generally we had no status change since November. A couple questions are outstanding on Sandy's review (on talk). Is anyone available to !vote keep? - SusanLesch ( talk) 14:42, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- @ George Ho, Z1720, and Hog Farm: are you available? Sandy said in October "As the article is getting close to Keep territory...." She and I cleaned up this article over the past couple years. Sorry to ping you. Best wishes, SusanLesch ( talk) 15:29, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
- I'll take a look but have no idea when I can get to it. I just moved last weekend; I'm not sure which box my primary laptop is in and we don't have reliable internet access set up yet. Hog Farm Talk 16:34, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, Hog Farm. While we're waiting I'll try to update Climate. - SusanLesch ( talk) 20:46, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
- I am working our polls for the presidential primary in the next two weeks and turn into a pumpkin tomorrow until March 7. In the meantime I tried to recruit a weather expert at the WikiProject. (Outdated climate data seems to be a hurdle with lots of old FAs.) - SusanLesch ( talk) 19:08, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- Susan - apologies for the delay in getting to this; this is at the top of my priority list now. Hog Farm Talk 14:49, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- I've started re-reviewing at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/Minneapolis/archive1#HF Hog Farm Talk 00:17, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- My concerns have been pretty much addressed, but there's an RFC ongoing with this now, so I'll hold off on making a declaration for now, until things stabilize out. Hog Farm Talk 15:23, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- The RfC closed. Our perennial critic thanked me twice silently for the follow up so I think we're free to move on. - SusanLesch ( talk) 13:32, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- @ Hog Farm: ↑ Nikkimaria ( talk) 04:05, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
Update to anyone worried about the climate box, I updated the data so it goes back to 1873, with a note explaining where the weather station is. I also removed some unnecessary parts of the table that aren't accessible in the NOWData source. Thanks SusanLesch ( talk · contribs) for reaching out to the weather WikiProject. ♫ Hurricanehink ( talk) 22:33, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
- Beautiful, elegant job. Thank you so much,
Hurricanehink. -
SusanLesch (
talk) 03:43, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Worked out on Minneapolis talk page. I was mistaken that 2020 climate normals are outdated. Next update will be 2030. - SusanLesch ( talk) 14:38, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
Dying and all, I wrote a new lead for discussion on the Minneapolis talk page. - SusanLesch ( talk) 14:34, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- Lead is done. My understanding is that's the last step of FAR. - SusanLesch ( talk) 22:54, 15 March 2024 (UTC)