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Category:People of the Dutch East Indies
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Support Option B per People from Fooland precedents.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 21:52, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support either way, at least do not use "of".
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:18, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support Option B as it avoids pseudo-demonym constructions. Plain English is best.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 07:10, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support Option A - using 'from' seems to involve a change of scope in the eyes of some editors. Do not use of and do change 'Netherlands' to 'Dutch' (per
Dutch New Guinea).
Oculi (
talk) 10:05, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
What editors eyes see a change of scope? My eyes don't see a change. What change do your eyes see? My eyes also fail to see the nomination for "Emigrants from Venezuala" which you nominated. Can you point me to the discussion please?
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 11:05, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Sephardic to Sephardi
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Nominator's rationale: "Sephardi" is used for all other Sephardi-related categories. These few are the only that use "Sephardic". Rename for consistency.
Bohemian Baltimore (
talk) 19:22, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose we should follow the main article to allow easy navigation. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:10, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose, but I note that consistency is overrated. We usually refer to Ashkenazi Jews, not Ashkenazic, but Sephardic Jews, not Sephardi. However, both Ashkenazic and Sephardi (along with Sephardim) can be used in text without confusion or looking particularly odd. It's not essential to make all related categories match each other; sometimes it makes sense, and other times it's better to follow common practice even when that creates inconsistency, especially when that's how people are likely to search for things.
P Aculeius (
talk) 11:37, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Fair. I'm not in a hurry to nominate all categories to make them comply with the main article, but if we are gonna make anything consistent, then
WP:C2D should be followed rather than this nom.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 19:39, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Paratriathletes and paracanoeists by country
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Nominator's rationale: Currently included in the
Category:Paralympic competitors by sport and country, category names do not reflect that as all paratriathletes or likewise are not necessarily Paralympic competitors. Categories are formatted (or what to call it) as an Olympic/Paralympic category (Sportspeople of Foo instead of Fooian sportspeople) and I have not yet found any larger or longer-included parasport having a cross-category Category:Fooian (parasport)people from Category:(Parasport)people and Category:Fooian (sports)people.
Four categories with one non-Paralympic connection are proposed merge. A couple have a single Paralympic connection, but small categories seem accepted in the sub-categorisation scheme.
Query is there any notable paratriathlete who is not also a paralympian? In not, then the proposal would introduce a redundancy.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 07:12, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Parasportspeople tend to move between different sports and there are a couple of articles with people who have been Paralympic in one sport and noted in World championships or similar in another, two are
David Blair (rower) and
Charles Moreau (cyclist). These need to be recategorised afterwards.
Kaffet i halsen (
talk) 13:31, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Suggestion: just noticed this while replying to another proposal. Wouldn't it be simpler to say "paralympic canoeists" or "paralympic triathletes" instead of "paralympic paracanoeists" and "paralympic paratriathletes"? That is, assuming that there aren't any notable paracanoeists or paratriathletes who aren't paralympians, in which case the move might narrow the scope of the categories undesirably by excluding otherwise notable paracanoeists and paratriathletes, as suggested above. If the competitors are paralympians, shouldn't it be presumed that they're paracanoeists and paratriathletes? And is it terrible of me to wonder about skydiving as a paralympic sport? We could have "Paraguayan paralympic paraparachutists"...
P Aculeius (
talk) 11:47, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
That is the most intuitive solution and nom also replied earlier that they have no problem with it.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:40, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Updated nomination to match two comments about double "para" in proposed category names.
Kaffet i halsen (
talk) 11:11, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support revised nom with thanks to P Aculeius.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 13:33, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Films shot in Nordrhein-Westfalen
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Rename per nom. The current title has no meaning in English.
Dimadick (
talk) 07:30, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Hungarian-speaking countries and territories
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This would have the strange consequence that
Székely Land which is largely about the Hungarian-speaking people in that region who are denied any official status would be excluded from the category.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:07, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, but the reason why both its parent and its two children were renamed with official language is exactly because any other standard than official language is
WP:ARBITRARYCAT,
WP:SUBJECTIVECAT,
WP:NONDEFINING, and suffers from problems of
WP:V and
WP:OR. It's only logical that this category in between follows the decisions made about its parent and children.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 20:51, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
"Official" works in some countries but not in others, dependent on politics towards ethnic minorities. There is no
WP:OR here, Hungarian language is one of the main topics of the article beyond any doubt.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:55, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
That Hungarian language is one of the main topics of the article is true, but there is no justification for claiming the entirety of "
Székely Land" as a "Hungarian-speaking territory". If it can (still) even be called a "territory" (which it officially ceased to be in 1876). Definitions of what "
Székely Land" even is vary widely, and neither the former borders nor the "proposed borders" coincide with the Hungarian-language majority areas:
File:Szekely Land issues.svg. The Szekler National Council apparently thinks it's okay to claim areas with Romanian-speaking majorities including the city of
Târgu Mureș as part of "Székely Land", which is really questionable. I do not think we should go along with dubious nationalistic claims that are factually incorrect.
That wouldn't solve the
WP:ARBITRARYCAT,
WP:SUBJECTIVECAT,
WP:NONDEFINING,
WP:V, and
WP:OR issues for which its parent and children were renamed. It's only logical that this category in between follows the decisions made about its parent and children. I could do what you ask, and separately create the target cat and fill it with the two subcats and all items that belong in it, but then I'm gonna CfD the current cat later anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ CfR is just easier and more straightforward.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 20:54, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename and purge as needed. Both the subcats and the parent category,
Category:Countries and territories by official language, follow this naming format. (None of the sibling categories in that tree use this naming format though, but this seems well reasoned, matches recent discusisons, and can be a start for the rest.) -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:22, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Exactly, I'm using this as the most obvious test case after all three were recently renamed in conjunction with each other for the same reasons. This category in between is the missing link between the three. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 22:48, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose: Apparently, this is a "test case" for wide ranging changes to the "-speaking countries and territories" category tree. I do not think that we should be altering the tree in that way - "official language" is often highly misleading and makes the defining point whatever the powerful happen to say, instead of the reality of who speaks what where (which can in fact be established by reliable sources and regularly is).
Furius (
talk) 21:00, 16 May 2023 (UTC)reply
On what basis other than official language would you want to define
Category:Hungarian-speaking countries and territories, the category in between? How do you propose we categorise the reality of who speaks what where (which can in fact be established by reliable sources and regularly is), without turning it into an
WP:ARBITRARYCAT?
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 16:18, 20 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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@
LaundryPizza03: It's been almost a week, and I notice the category still has not been renamed. Is this because it still needs to be purged? If so, are you going to do that, will someone else (like a backlog cleaner) do it, can/should I do it as nom, or someone else? Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 07:27, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Comment One of the nominated categories was renamed out of process by
WP:CFDS. The nomination has been updated. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 20:40, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete none of the articles I clicked through were purpose built stadiums. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:24, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Olympic footballers of Russia
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GiantSnowman 18:57, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename to reflect historically accurate name.
GiantSnowman 18:59, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:LUV Graz players
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Nominator's rationale: No evidence that the men's team is notable (the women's team is under a separate category
Category:DFC LUV Graz players). Men's club did not play above the fifth tier in Austria in 27 years. The "article"
LUV Graz is a just a redirect to women's club.
Geregen2 (
talk) 15:25, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:King lists
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Propose re-parenting to ??? (please make some good suggestions, I'm at a loss)Category:Documents AND
Category:Inscriptions, remove entirely from the Lists tree
Re-parenting We may even have to take it out of its parent category
Category:Lists of monarchs to avoid confusion and because it may not be is the proper place for it, but its grandparent
Category:Monarchy-related lists maybe? and per Marcocapelle entirely remove it from the Lists tree, since that tree is about Wikipedia lists, not real lists.The problem is: how else would we categorise
Regnal list and this category? And its most basic, regnal lists are just
Category:Texts, but they may be
Category:Documents (on paper) or
Category:Inscriptions (carved in clay, stone, rock, wood etc., like the
Abydos King List), so we can't specify it further. The alternative would be to put
Put regnal lists in both
Category:Documents AND
Category:Inscriptions?, because they can be written on documents like paper/papyrus/parchment etc. or inscribed into clay tablets, stone walls, rock, wood etc.
What else might we add?
Category:Sequences in time, perhaps?
Category:Lines of succession seems to be about future successions, not past successions. Regnal lists do not claim what should happen, but what has happened already. (Although they may sometimes be inaccurate or fraudulous, they make claims about past sequences of people who have been monarchs in/over a particular area/state or people/society/community). Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 13:29, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Sorry but I don't see a real distinction between King lists and Lists of monarchs. Can you give a few examples of some king who would be in one but not the other?
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 14:34, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Laurel Lodged For example, the
Sumerian King List#Rulers in the Sumerian King List "Antediluvian rulers" who each allegedly reigned for more than 20,000 years are not mentioned in the
List of Mesopotamian dynasties, because the pre-Sargonic part of the SKL must be considered fictional. Many of the rulers in the pre-Sargonic part (i.e. prior to Sargon of Akkad) of the list must therefore be considered as purely fictional or mythological characters to which reigns of hundreds of years were assigned. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 14:47, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
That seems to point to a parent/child relationship rather than parallel tree structures. That is "Legendary Sumerian kings" as a child of "Sumerian kings". No? So the remedy is renaming, not merging. No?
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 15:06, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Laurel Lodged Not quite. The
Sumerian King List is a group of clay tablets with text carved into them. It exists physically, outside of Wikipedia.
The
List of Mesopotamian dynasties is a web page on Wikipedia, which compiles information from a number of sources (either physical or digital). It does not exist outside the Internet. We Wikipedians created it.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 15:49, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
(e/c) I think a simpler explanation would be that this category is about a group of real-life historical documents that happen to be lists, rather than Wikipedia list articles, which is what Category:Lists of monarchs covers. --
Paul_012 (
talk) 15:53, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes that's what I'm trying to say, except that inscriptions into clay tablets, stone walls etc. aren't "documents".
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 15:55, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
On wiki, "list" means a wiki list. If it's a clay tablet, then that's a whole other thing. A new nmae, but not a neologism, is needed for this situation.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 16:51, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
That's why I propose "
Category:Regnal lists" per
WP:C2D main article
Regnal list. My only question is how it should be parented. My current suggestions for parents are:
Category:Monarchy-related lists per Marcocapelle entirely remove it from the Lists tree, since that tree is about Wikipedia lists, not real lists.
^ These cats are about the medium/material by which these regnal lists have been recorded. Most of the
Regnal list#Historical examples are carved in stone walls, the
Sumerian King List is carved in clay tablets, the
Turin King List is written on papyrus, so only that last one is a "document". (Technically, a list of monarchs on Wikipedia is a digital regnal list, the medium being "the Internet/Wikipedia", so
Category:Lists of monarchs should be in
Category:Regnal lists rather than the other way around, but that's
MOS:SELFREF,
WP:CIRC, "breaking the fourth wall" etc., and generally just plain silly).
I'm not sure but perhaps
Category:Archaeological artifacts might qualify for all the non-document regnal lists, i.e. the inscriptions of successive series of monarchs carved into clay, stone, rock, wood etc.. For the "document" regnal lists written on paper, papyrus, parchment etc.
Category:Reference works might actually suit, because that's what it's basically is: a collection of information for reference purposes just in case anyone forgets which king or queen ruled when and in which order.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 20:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom and entirely remove it from the Lists tree, since that tree is about Wikipedia lists, not real lists.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:19, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Good point. Then I'll scrap "Category:Monarchy-related lists" from the potential parents suggestions.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 22:19, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename to match article and reparent to
Category:DocumentsandCategory:Inscriptions. No need to over-think it. The dictionary definition of inscription does include written and printed words, and the documents category concerns the topical information recorded (whatever the medium), so they're different dimensions. --
Paul_012 (
talk) 09:29, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename per the main article. I'll defer to other editors on the parent cats. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:27, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment:And Leave and I have had
a very good and constructive discussion to rename
List of legendary monarchs of Ethiopia to
1922 regnal list of Ethiopia, and split off the
Regnal lists of Ethiopia as a separate article, in part because of
WP:TOOBIG, but also in order to better make this distinction between Wikipedia lists of monarchs on the one hand, and regnal lists which exist in documents/inscriptions outside of Wikipedia on the other. And Leave has done a great job of gathering all this information and improving it so that it is clear what it is about. This case further illustrates the need to distinguish Wikipedia lists of monarchs and document/inscription regnal lists. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 11:26, 16 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Southeast Asian monarchs
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Category:Lists of African monarchs
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Category:Ich bin ein Star – Holt mich hier raus! participants
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Nominator's rationale: As these people were already famous this is not
WP:DEFINING and therefore nothing more than a
WP:PERFCAT. --
woodensuperman 12:18, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete the premise is that they're already celebrities so this isn't defining. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:28, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Weather events in Alaska
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Comment: A weather event must affect human communities and cause damage to be considered a disaster. This does not seem to be the case for one of the members of the nominated category. --
Paul_012 (
talk) 15:59, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Damage was estimated at $24 million. It seems reasonable to keep it in the disasters tree.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:32, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
That's the 2011 event. I was referring to the 2014 one. --
Paul_012 (
talk) 05:44, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
OK. I would still merge the 2014 one too for consistency. This is an exceptional case because the disaster happened in a largely uninhabited area where it could do no harm.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 17:32, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:I'm a Celebrity...Get Me Out of Here! (Australian TV series) participants
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GiantSnowman 18:57, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
That would go against
WP:CAT#T: Templates are not articles, and thus do not belong in content categories.
S.A. Julio (
talk) 04:25, 16 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Thailand in fiction by medium
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Nominator's rationale: Not sure what the difference in intended scope of these recent categories is, if any. The nominated one is a few days older, but doesn't appear to be part of an established tree, hence the merge suggestion.
Paul_012 (
talk) 10:49, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support. I agree its redundant and the "works set in by country" category has a better established tree than the fiction by medium.
4meter4 (
talk) 12:27, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Oppose: it is a subcategory to the usefull category "Category:Temples by deity", and Greek deities should not be treated differently from other deities. Perhaps this is a misunderstanding of the category. The temples were not actually named for example "Temple of Artemis". Indeed, we often do not even know the actual name of these temples. The categories are meant to sort ancient greek temples after the deity the temple was dedicated to. Just like we have the category "Category:Kali temples", to find temples dedicated to the goddes Kali, we should have "Category:Temples of Artemis" to find temples dedicated to goddess Artemis, etc. There should be no difference between Greek gods and Hindu gods in this respect. The category of Greek temples was already to large before these sub-categories were created.--
Aciram (
talk) 10:38, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
I am sorry, but I do not understand your conclusion. This is not a question of the name of a building- It is a question of the building being dedicated to the worship of different dieties. If you want to delete this category, you will have to empty and delete the entire "Category:Temples by deity" and each subcategory it contains. It is not the same thing with :Category:Churches by Patron Saint. The Christian churches all worship the same god, even if they are dedicated to different saints. They are not included in the "Category:Temples by deity". In the cases of :Category:Churches by Patron Saint, it is sorted by the names of buildings, not by the worship of different gods. Because of all these things, it is not contradictive at all, and very different cases. Not that I have ever even been aware of the Category:Churches by Patron Saint-discussion in the first place, but since you brought it up. --
Aciram (
talk) 15:52, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Unlike Catholic churches which are all dedicated to the worship of the same Christian God regardless of their name, these Greek temples are different sects worshipping different gods, so the categorization is very much a matter of reigious practice, not of mere naming. --
Paul_012 (
talk) 16:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep all. Mistaken notion on nominator's part, per above. --
Paul_012 (
talk) 16:18, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Temples dedicated to the worship of Zeus are dedicated to the same god - Zeus. Since they are physically separate temples and the only thing that they share is their dedication to the same named deity, then the above rule covers this situation. Please outline the "Mistaken notion".
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 16:56, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Sorry, I don't know how I can better explain this. You're claiming that the religious practices of the temples are mere names. That's the mistaken notion. It's like claiming that all Anglican church categories should be deleted because they're just churches named "Anglican church", etc. --
Paul_012 (
talk) 17:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
(1) I wasn't the one who said that, and (2) sorry, but I can't quite tell if you're being obtuse on purpose. I don't have any further responses. --
Paul_012 (
talk) 09:21, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep per above discussion. This is about the main subject of worship in each of these temples.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:43, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep per above. The link between the buildings in e.g.
Category:Temples of Poseidon is not their shared name (and indeed temples not known as the Temple of Poseidon, such as the
Temple of Isthmia, are included in the category) but their shared use as temples for the worship of a particular god. In contrast, the various churches of St. Dunstan which the nominator keeps drawing an analogy to are not used for the worship of St. Dunstan particularly, but for the Christian God. These categories are more akin to
Category:Mosques or
Category:Church buildings, which one hopes nobody would consider based on a non-defining shared name!
Caeciliusinhorto-public (
talk) 08:23, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep as they are. As others have noted, this is about worship by deity, not mere dedication to a particular theme, as is the case with the patron saints of churches, which do not involve different subjects of worship. To be fair, I would not object to churches by patron saint, except that the categories would be overwhelmed by the vast number of entries under the most common names, and the fact that the churches would cross various denominational lines—a concept that does not really apply to the nominated categories, but which would potentially make the categories non-defining for churches. Even so, I think the practical objection may be the stronger one, since it cannot be easily accommodated even through sorting by denomination. There is no similar objection to the much more modest number of temples from antiquity.
P Aculeius (
talk) 12:15, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose This is not a shared name, this is the specific
deity worshipped.
Dimadick (
talk) 07:31, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep -- These were places for the worship of the god or goddess. This differs from churches, which are for the worship of God Almighty, but have a patron saint, whose name they bear.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:29, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep - The god to which the temple was dedicated is probably its most defining characteristic.
Furius (
talk) 00:06, 16 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:European rulers
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Support -- Most of the sub-cats are about "rulers", but none ruled the whole of Europe.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:31, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Uyghur sub-ethnic groups
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Nominator's rationale: None of the articles in it appear to be Uyghur sub-ethnic groups. I was reviewing the articles in the category and removing them as I did if it didn't appear that they were sub-ethnic groups of Uyghurs and noticed that this seemed to apply to all of them. For the purposes of review, the articles I removed were
Taranchi,
Äynu people,
Dolan people, and
Yugurs. ~Cherri of
Arctic Circle System (
talk) 06:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment As the nominator states, this category has been emptied. Please do not do this if you are going to nominate a category for a deletion discussion. It kind of makes the whole discussion pointless. LizRead!Talk! 01:41, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Dadaist
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Nominator's rationale: This should be renamed to plural. Some subcategories are already renamed (German dadaists), others need a rename (ex. American dadaist, Italian Dadaist - that one is even pointlessly capitalized). This should be a non-controversial technical request, I think... Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 04:13, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:People of the Dutch East Indies
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Support Option B per People from Fooland precedents.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 21:52, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support either way, at least do not use "of".
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:18, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support Option B as it avoids pseudo-demonym constructions. Plain English is best.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 07:10, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support Option A - using 'from' seems to involve a change of scope in the eyes of some editors. Do not use of and do change 'Netherlands' to 'Dutch' (per
Dutch New Guinea).
Oculi (
talk) 10:05, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
What editors eyes see a change of scope? My eyes don't see a change. What change do your eyes see? My eyes also fail to see the nomination for "Emigrants from Venezuala" which you nominated. Can you point me to the discussion please?
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 11:05, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Sephardic to Sephardi
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Nominator's rationale: "Sephardi" is used for all other Sephardi-related categories. These few are the only that use "Sephardic". Rename for consistency.
Bohemian Baltimore (
talk) 19:22, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose we should follow the main article to allow easy navigation. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:10, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose, but I note that consistency is overrated. We usually refer to Ashkenazi Jews, not Ashkenazic, but Sephardic Jews, not Sephardi. However, both Ashkenazic and Sephardi (along with Sephardim) can be used in text without confusion or looking particularly odd. It's not essential to make all related categories match each other; sometimes it makes sense, and other times it's better to follow common practice even when that creates inconsistency, especially when that's how people are likely to search for things.
P Aculeius (
talk) 11:37, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Fair. I'm not in a hurry to nominate all categories to make them comply with the main article, but if we are gonna make anything consistent, then
WP:C2D should be followed rather than this nom.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 19:39, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Paratriathletes and paracanoeists by country
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Nominator's rationale: Currently included in the
Category:Paralympic competitors by sport and country, category names do not reflect that as all paratriathletes or likewise are not necessarily Paralympic competitors. Categories are formatted (or what to call it) as an Olympic/Paralympic category (Sportspeople of Foo instead of Fooian sportspeople) and I have not yet found any larger or longer-included parasport having a cross-category Category:Fooian (parasport)people from Category:(Parasport)people and Category:Fooian (sports)people.
Four categories with one non-Paralympic connection are proposed merge. A couple have a single Paralympic connection, but small categories seem accepted in the sub-categorisation scheme.
Query is there any notable paratriathlete who is not also a paralympian? In not, then the proposal would introduce a redundancy.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 07:12, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Parasportspeople tend to move between different sports and there are a couple of articles with people who have been Paralympic in one sport and noted in World championships or similar in another, two are
David Blair (rower) and
Charles Moreau (cyclist). These need to be recategorised afterwards.
Kaffet i halsen (
talk) 13:31, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Suggestion: just noticed this while replying to another proposal. Wouldn't it be simpler to say "paralympic canoeists" or "paralympic triathletes" instead of "paralympic paracanoeists" and "paralympic paratriathletes"? That is, assuming that there aren't any notable paracanoeists or paratriathletes who aren't paralympians, in which case the move might narrow the scope of the categories undesirably by excluding otherwise notable paracanoeists and paratriathletes, as suggested above. If the competitors are paralympians, shouldn't it be presumed that they're paracanoeists and paratriathletes? And is it terrible of me to wonder about skydiving as a paralympic sport? We could have "Paraguayan paralympic paraparachutists"...
P Aculeius (
talk) 11:47, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
That is the most intuitive solution and nom also replied earlier that they have no problem with it.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:40, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Updated nomination to match two comments about double "para" in proposed category names.
Kaffet i halsen (
talk) 11:11, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support revised nom with thanks to P Aculeius.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 13:33, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Films shot in Nordrhein-Westfalen
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Rename per nom. The current title has no meaning in English.
Dimadick (
talk) 07:30, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Hungarian-speaking countries and territories
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This would have the strange consequence that
Székely Land which is largely about the Hungarian-speaking people in that region who are denied any official status would be excluded from the category.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:07, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, but the reason why both its parent and its two children were renamed with official language is exactly because any other standard than official language is
WP:ARBITRARYCAT,
WP:SUBJECTIVECAT,
WP:NONDEFINING, and suffers from problems of
WP:V and
WP:OR. It's only logical that this category in between follows the decisions made about its parent and children.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 20:51, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
"Official" works in some countries but not in others, dependent on politics towards ethnic minorities. There is no
WP:OR here, Hungarian language is one of the main topics of the article beyond any doubt.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:55, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
That Hungarian language is one of the main topics of the article is true, but there is no justification for claiming the entirety of "
Székely Land" as a "Hungarian-speaking territory". If it can (still) even be called a "territory" (which it officially ceased to be in 1876). Definitions of what "
Székely Land" even is vary widely, and neither the former borders nor the "proposed borders" coincide with the Hungarian-language majority areas:
File:Szekely Land issues.svg. The Szekler National Council apparently thinks it's okay to claim areas with Romanian-speaking majorities including the city of
Târgu Mureș as part of "Székely Land", which is really questionable. I do not think we should go along with dubious nationalistic claims that are factually incorrect.
That wouldn't solve the
WP:ARBITRARYCAT,
WP:SUBJECTIVECAT,
WP:NONDEFINING,
WP:V, and
WP:OR issues for which its parent and children were renamed. It's only logical that this category in between follows the decisions made about its parent and children. I could do what you ask, and separately create the target cat and fill it with the two subcats and all items that belong in it, but then I'm gonna CfD the current cat later anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ CfR is just easier and more straightforward.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 20:54, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename and purge as needed. Both the subcats and the parent category,
Category:Countries and territories by official language, follow this naming format. (None of the sibling categories in that tree use this naming format though, but this seems well reasoned, matches recent discusisons, and can be a start for the rest.) -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:22, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Exactly, I'm using this as the most obvious test case after all three were recently renamed in conjunction with each other for the same reasons. This category in between is the missing link between the three. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 22:48, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose: Apparently, this is a "test case" for wide ranging changes to the "-speaking countries and territories" category tree. I do not think that we should be altering the tree in that way - "official language" is often highly misleading and makes the defining point whatever the powerful happen to say, instead of the reality of who speaks what where (which can in fact be established by reliable sources and regularly is).
Furius (
talk) 21:00, 16 May 2023 (UTC)reply
On what basis other than official language would you want to define
Category:Hungarian-speaking countries and territories, the category in between? How do you propose we categorise the reality of who speaks what where (which can in fact be established by reliable sources and regularly is), without turning it into an
WP:ARBITRARYCAT?
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 16:18, 20 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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@
LaundryPizza03: It's been almost a week, and I notice the category still has not been renamed. Is this because it still needs to be purged? If so, are you going to do that, will someone else (like a backlog cleaner) do it, can/should I do it as nom, or someone else? Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 07:27, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Comment One of the nominated categories was renamed out of process by
WP:CFDS. The nomination has been updated. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 20:40, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete none of the articles I clicked through were purpose built stadiums. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:24, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Olympic footballers of Russia
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GiantSnowman 18:57, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename to reflect historically accurate name.
GiantSnowman 18:59, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:LUV Graz players
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Nominator's rationale: No evidence that the men's team is notable (the women's team is under a separate category
Category:DFC LUV Graz players). Men's club did not play above the fifth tier in Austria in 27 years. The "article"
LUV Graz is a just a redirect to women's club.
Geregen2 (
talk) 15:25, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:King lists
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Propose re-parenting to ??? (please make some good suggestions, I'm at a loss)Category:Documents AND
Category:Inscriptions, remove entirely from the Lists tree
Re-parenting We may even have to take it out of its parent category
Category:Lists of monarchs to avoid confusion and because it may not be is the proper place for it, but its grandparent
Category:Monarchy-related lists maybe? and per Marcocapelle entirely remove it from the Lists tree, since that tree is about Wikipedia lists, not real lists.The problem is: how else would we categorise
Regnal list and this category? And its most basic, regnal lists are just
Category:Texts, but they may be
Category:Documents (on paper) or
Category:Inscriptions (carved in clay, stone, rock, wood etc., like the
Abydos King List), so we can't specify it further. The alternative would be to put
Put regnal lists in both
Category:Documents AND
Category:Inscriptions?, because they can be written on documents like paper/papyrus/parchment etc. or inscribed into clay tablets, stone walls, rock, wood etc.
What else might we add?
Category:Sequences in time, perhaps?
Category:Lines of succession seems to be about future successions, not past successions. Regnal lists do not claim what should happen, but what has happened already. (Although they may sometimes be inaccurate or fraudulous, they make claims about past sequences of people who have been monarchs in/over a particular area/state or people/society/community). Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 13:29, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Sorry but I don't see a real distinction between King lists and Lists of monarchs. Can you give a few examples of some king who would be in one but not the other?
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 14:34, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Laurel Lodged For example, the
Sumerian King List#Rulers in the Sumerian King List "Antediluvian rulers" who each allegedly reigned for more than 20,000 years are not mentioned in the
List of Mesopotamian dynasties, because the pre-Sargonic part of the SKL must be considered fictional. Many of the rulers in the pre-Sargonic part (i.e. prior to Sargon of Akkad) of the list must therefore be considered as purely fictional or mythological characters to which reigns of hundreds of years were assigned. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 14:47, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
That seems to point to a parent/child relationship rather than parallel tree structures. That is "Legendary Sumerian kings" as a child of "Sumerian kings". No? So the remedy is renaming, not merging. No?
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 15:06, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Laurel Lodged Not quite. The
Sumerian King List is a group of clay tablets with text carved into them. It exists physically, outside of Wikipedia.
The
List of Mesopotamian dynasties is a web page on Wikipedia, which compiles information from a number of sources (either physical or digital). It does not exist outside the Internet. We Wikipedians created it.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 15:49, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
(e/c) I think a simpler explanation would be that this category is about a group of real-life historical documents that happen to be lists, rather than Wikipedia list articles, which is what Category:Lists of monarchs covers. --
Paul_012 (
talk) 15:53, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes that's what I'm trying to say, except that inscriptions into clay tablets, stone walls etc. aren't "documents".
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 15:55, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
On wiki, "list" means a wiki list. If it's a clay tablet, then that's a whole other thing. A new nmae, but not a neologism, is needed for this situation.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 16:51, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
That's why I propose "
Category:Regnal lists" per
WP:C2D main article
Regnal list. My only question is how it should be parented. My current suggestions for parents are:
Category:Monarchy-related lists per Marcocapelle entirely remove it from the Lists tree, since that tree is about Wikipedia lists, not real lists.
^ These cats are about the medium/material by which these regnal lists have been recorded. Most of the
Regnal list#Historical examples are carved in stone walls, the
Sumerian King List is carved in clay tablets, the
Turin King List is written on papyrus, so only that last one is a "document". (Technically, a list of monarchs on Wikipedia is a digital regnal list, the medium being "the Internet/Wikipedia", so
Category:Lists of monarchs should be in
Category:Regnal lists rather than the other way around, but that's
MOS:SELFREF,
WP:CIRC, "breaking the fourth wall" etc., and generally just plain silly).
I'm not sure but perhaps
Category:Archaeological artifacts might qualify for all the non-document regnal lists, i.e. the inscriptions of successive series of monarchs carved into clay, stone, rock, wood etc.. For the "document" regnal lists written on paper, papyrus, parchment etc.
Category:Reference works might actually suit, because that's what it's basically is: a collection of information for reference purposes just in case anyone forgets which king or queen ruled when and in which order.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 20:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom and entirely remove it from the Lists tree, since that tree is about Wikipedia lists, not real lists.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:19, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Good point. Then I'll scrap "Category:Monarchy-related lists" from the potential parents suggestions.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 22:19, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename to match article and reparent to
Category:DocumentsandCategory:Inscriptions. No need to over-think it. The dictionary definition of inscription does include written and printed words, and the documents category concerns the topical information recorded (whatever the medium), so they're different dimensions. --
Paul_012 (
talk) 09:29, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename per the main article. I'll defer to other editors on the parent cats. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:27, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment:And Leave and I have had
a very good and constructive discussion to rename
List of legendary monarchs of Ethiopia to
1922 regnal list of Ethiopia, and split off the
Regnal lists of Ethiopia as a separate article, in part because of
WP:TOOBIG, but also in order to better make this distinction between Wikipedia lists of monarchs on the one hand, and regnal lists which exist in documents/inscriptions outside of Wikipedia on the other. And Leave has done a great job of gathering all this information and improving it so that it is clear what it is about. This case further illustrates the need to distinguish Wikipedia lists of monarchs and document/inscription regnal lists. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 11:26, 16 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Southeast Asian monarchs
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Category:Lists of African monarchs
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Category:Ich bin ein Star – Holt mich hier raus! participants
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Nominator's rationale: As these people were already famous this is not
WP:DEFINING and therefore nothing more than a
WP:PERFCAT. --
woodensuperman 12:18, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete the premise is that they're already celebrities so this isn't defining. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:28, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Weather events in Alaska
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Comment: A weather event must affect human communities and cause damage to be considered a disaster. This does not seem to be the case for one of the members of the nominated category. --
Paul_012 (
talk) 15:59, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Damage was estimated at $24 million. It seems reasonable to keep it in the disasters tree.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:32, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
That's the 2011 event. I was referring to the 2014 one. --
Paul_012 (
talk) 05:44, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
OK. I would still merge the 2014 one too for consistency. This is an exceptional case because the disaster happened in a largely uninhabited area where it could do no harm.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 17:32, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:I'm a Celebrity...Get Me Out of Here! (Australian TV series) participants
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GiantSnowman 18:57, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
That would go against
WP:CAT#T: Templates are not articles, and thus do not belong in content categories.
S.A. Julio (
talk) 04:25, 16 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Thailand in fiction by medium
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Nominator's rationale: Not sure what the difference in intended scope of these recent categories is, if any. The nominated one is a few days older, but doesn't appear to be part of an established tree, hence the merge suggestion.
Paul_012 (
talk) 10:49, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support. I agree its redundant and the "works set in by country" category has a better established tree than the fiction by medium.
4meter4 (
talk) 12:27, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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Oppose: it is a subcategory to the usefull category "Category:Temples by deity", and Greek deities should not be treated differently from other deities. Perhaps this is a misunderstanding of the category. The temples were not actually named for example "Temple of Artemis". Indeed, we often do not even know the actual name of these temples. The categories are meant to sort ancient greek temples after the deity the temple was dedicated to. Just like we have the category "Category:Kali temples", to find temples dedicated to the goddes Kali, we should have "Category:Temples of Artemis" to find temples dedicated to goddess Artemis, etc. There should be no difference between Greek gods and Hindu gods in this respect. The category of Greek temples was already to large before these sub-categories were created.--
Aciram (
talk) 10:38, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
I am sorry, but I do not understand your conclusion. This is not a question of the name of a building- It is a question of the building being dedicated to the worship of different dieties. If you want to delete this category, you will have to empty and delete the entire "Category:Temples by deity" and each subcategory it contains. It is not the same thing with :Category:Churches by Patron Saint. The Christian churches all worship the same god, even if they are dedicated to different saints. They are not included in the "Category:Temples by deity". In the cases of :Category:Churches by Patron Saint, it is sorted by the names of buildings, not by the worship of different gods. Because of all these things, it is not contradictive at all, and very different cases. Not that I have ever even been aware of the Category:Churches by Patron Saint-discussion in the first place, but since you brought it up. --
Aciram (
talk) 15:52, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Unlike Catholic churches which are all dedicated to the worship of the same Christian God regardless of their name, these Greek temples are different sects worshipping different gods, so the categorization is very much a matter of reigious practice, not of mere naming. --
Paul_012 (
talk) 16:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep all. Mistaken notion on nominator's part, per above. --
Paul_012 (
talk) 16:18, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Temples dedicated to the worship of Zeus are dedicated to the same god - Zeus. Since they are physically separate temples and the only thing that they share is their dedication to the same named deity, then the above rule covers this situation. Please outline the "Mistaken notion".
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 16:56, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Sorry, I don't know how I can better explain this. You're claiming that the religious practices of the temples are mere names. That's the mistaken notion. It's like claiming that all Anglican church categories should be deleted because they're just churches named "Anglican church", etc. --
Paul_012 (
talk) 17:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
(1) I wasn't the one who said that, and (2) sorry, but I can't quite tell if you're being obtuse on purpose. I don't have any further responses. --
Paul_012 (
talk) 09:21, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep per above discussion. This is about the main subject of worship in each of these temples.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:43, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep per above. The link between the buildings in e.g.
Category:Temples of Poseidon is not their shared name (and indeed temples not known as the Temple of Poseidon, such as the
Temple of Isthmia, are included in the category) but their shared use as temples for the worship of a particular god. In contrast, the various churches of St. Dunstan which the nominator keeps drawing an analogy to are not used for the worship of St. Dunstan particularly, but for the Christian God. These categories are more akin to
Category:Mosques or
Category:Church buildings, which one hopes nobody would consider based on a non-defining shared name!
Caeciliusinhorto-public (
talk) 08:23, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep as they are. As others have noted, this is about worship by deity, not mere dedication to a particular theme, as is the case with the patron saints of churches, which do not involve different subjects of worship. To be fair, I would not object to churches by patron saint, except that the categories would be overwhelmed by the vast number of entries under the most common names, and the fact that the churches would cross various denominational lines—a concept that does not really apply to the nominated categories, but which would potentially make the categories non-defining for churches. Even so, I think the practical objection may be the stronger one, since it cannot be easily accommodated even through sorting by denomination. There is no similar objection to the much more modest number of temples from antiquity.
P Aculeius (
talk) 12:15, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose This is not a shared name, this is the specific
deity worshipped.
Dimadick (
talk) 07:31, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep -- These were places for the worship of the god or goddess. This differs from churches, which are for the worship of God Almighty, but have a patron saint, whose name they bear.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:29, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep - The god to which the temple was dedicated is probably its most defining characteristic.
Furius (
talk) 00:06, 16 May 2023 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:European rulers
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Support -- Most of the sub-cats are about "rulers", but none ruled the whole of Europe.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:31, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Uyghur sub-ethnic groups
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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Nominator's rationale: None of the articles in it appear to be Uyghur sub-ethnic groups. I was reviewing the articles in the category and removing them as I did if it didn't appear that they were sub-ethnic groups of Uyghurs and noticed that this seemed to apply to all of them. For the purposes of review, the articles I removed were
Taranchi,
Äynu people,
Dolan people, and
Yugurs. ~Cherri of
Arctic Circle System (
talk) 06:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment As the nominator states, this category has been emptied. Please do not do this if you are going to nominate a category for a deletion discussion. It kind of makes the whole discussion pointless. LizRead!Talk! 01:41, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Dadaist
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: This should be renamed to plural. Some subcategories are already renamed (German dadaists), others need a rename (ex. American dadaist, Italian Dadaist - that one is even pointlessly capitalized). This should be a non-controversial technical request, I think... Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 04:13, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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