Sephiroth
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This disambiguation page doesn't really seem to have a use, given it only contains two subjects, Sefirot and Sephiroth, which can easily have a hatnote at the top of their articles to accomplish the same disambiguation purpose. Given that Sephiroth is the name, and not Sefirot, which is only a similar sounding word, I'd suggest reclassing Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) to just Sephiroth, and then keeping the hatnote that leads to Sefirot in the case that someone is looking for the concept. Overall, though, this page seems unneeded. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 ( talk) 00:19, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Video games, and Religion. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 ( talk) 00:19, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- Delete per the above and WP:ONEOTHER. Jclemens ( talk) 01:00, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: WP:ONEOTHER and WP:DABPARTIAL. Unnecessary disambiguation page that can be resolved with a hatnote. Nothing else can logically be added to this. Agree with nom that Sephiroth is clearly the primary topic of the name so that article should be moved to Sephiroth without the disambiguator as well. StreetcarEnjoyer (talk) 01:13, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 01:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- Just FYI, there have been a few previous discussions relevant to explain why things are this way:
- Keep According to
WikiNav there is no primary topic, and in fact more clicks go to Sefirot than the FF character. Therefore despite it seeming "obvious" to video game fans, it clearly has a different meaning to the greater public.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 04:51, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- The primary topic for Sephiroth is not Sefirot, regardless of the relative pageviews. While they may be transliterating the same Hebrew term--and I'm not sure that's actually been established without looking into the FF character--similar but different names and content is exactly what hatnotes are for, isn't it?
Jclemens (
talk) 04:56, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- Britannica clearly says that "Sephiroth" is an alternate name for Sefirot. I think it's highly likely the FF character's name was based on said mythology, also given the naming of Jenova, which resembles a certain Biblical name of God. Knowing this, both Sefirot and the FF character are viable topics for the term, and a DAB page is required. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ ( ᴛ) 06:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- The primary topic for Sephiroth is not Sefirot, regardless of the relative pageviews. While they may be transliterating the same Hebrew term--and I'm not sure that's actually been established without looking into the FF character--similar but different names and content is exactly what hatnotes are for, isn't it?
Jclemens (
talk) 04:56, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ. No primary topic so WP:ONEOTHER is satisfied by keeping the page. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 12:23, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
DeleteRedirect to Sefirot per ONEOTHER. If Sefirot is indeed the primary target, per ZXC, then Sephiroth shouldbe deleted andbecome a redirect to Sefirot. There's no policy support for a two-page DAB. Axem Titanium ( talk) 18:07, 15 April 2024 (UTC)- I never said Sefirot was the primary target, but that there was no primary, though it might be arguable that Sefirot is primary by the longterm significance criterion. In that case, though, deletion is unnecessary, a primary redirect can simply be made. The main thing I am certain of is that the video game character is not primary, so there is zero scenario in which deletion of this page is merited.
- DABs can certainly be 2 pages if there is no clear meaning of the word.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 18:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- True, changed position. Saving thousands of people a DAB click per month is an end unto itself. Axem Titanium ( talk) 18:45, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- Delete and move Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) to here per nom. That's honestly the most logical choice.--
Kung Fu Man (
talk) 03:26, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- @
Kung Fu Man: Do you have a response to the WikiNav information showing that more people click through to Sefirot than to the FF character from here? Because it seems to indicate that making the character primary is the illogical choice.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 05:51, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- @
Zxcvbnm: It could also be a sake of curiosity and is the top result Zx. I mean I know if I was looking up Sephiroth and the first thing I saw was that my curiosity would be piqued.--
Kung Fu Man (
talk) 06:52, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- Let's say that I had a gut feeling that 95% of the visitors to this page were actually looking for the religious term, but got distracted by the FF character and curiously clicked on that link instead. It might sound ludicrous, but if I asked for evidence to refute it, there is none. The only thing we know for certain is the relative pageviews, therefore similarly, that argument cannot be confirmed.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 07:42, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- Zx you asked a question and I gave a response. Even WikiNav seems to indicate most of the results are coming from a search result. In any event, I'm standing by my decision on this. Even a basic search result on Google indicates that the fictional character is the primarily subject.-- Kung Fu Man ( talk) 12:48, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- Let's say that I had a gut feeling that 95% of the visitors to this page were actually looking for the religious term, but got distracted by the FF character and curiously clicked on that link instead. It might sound ludicrous, but if I asked for evidence to refute it, there is none. The only thing we know for certain is the relative pageviews, therefore similarly, that argument cannot be confirmed.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 07:42, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- @
Zxcvbnm: It could also be a sake of curiosity and is the top result Zx. I mean I know if I was looking up Sephiroth and the first thing I saw was that my curiosity would be piqued.--
Kung Fu Man (
talk) 06:52, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- @
Kung Fu Man: Do you have a response to the WikiNav information showing that more people click through to Sefirot than to the FF character from here? Because it seems to indicate that making the character primary is the illogical choice.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 05:51, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. After thinking about this a bit, this request is in essence a request to move
Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) to
Sephiroth although it is presented in the guise of discussing deletion of a
redirectdisambiguation page. As disambiguation is necessary, whether with through hatnotes or a disambiguation page, this page cannot be deleted until there is consensus to move established with a transparent and properly listed MOVE discussion (not through a backdoor AfD). And the watchers of Sephirot should be notified of the discussion. older ≠ wiser 17:08, 16 April 2024 (UTC)- Comment: I'm also OK with redirecting this to Sephirot with a hatnote to the Final Fantasy character. However, that same redirect was previously changed to a disambiguation page in this discussion. Pinging the participants: Steel1943, Dream Focus, Havradim. older ≠ wiser 17:06, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- Delete per WP:ONEOTHER. The disambiguation can be achieved with a hat note. Shooterwalker ( talk) 01:18, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- Delete per
WP:ONEOTHER. The disambiguation can be achieved with a hat note. Yes, I copied Shooterwalker. The hatnote will redirect people just as easily or as well as this unnecessary twodab.
Unless someone can provide evidence this is an actual alternate name/spelling for Sefirot and not simply a similar word, the character should be moved over it.I do see its noted as a transliteration in the lead, which my eyes refused to register earlier. -- ferret ( talk) 14:55, 17 April 2024 (UTC) - Delete. I guess hat note does work. 🥒 Greenish Pickle!🥒 ( 🔔) 22:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- Delete. There's already a hatnote, and it would make sense to have one. Basically saying "delete per WP:ONEOTHER." TWOrantulaTM ( enter the web) 01:01, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Comment These delete arguments do not address the WP:SURPRISE issue when people - actually most searchers - are looking for a religious term and land on a Final Fantasy character. While the DAB page may not technically be required, WP:ONEOTHER is specifically for when a primary topic exists. The FF character is in no way a primary topic for this term. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ ( ᴛ) 17:31, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Keep - while Sephirot is the usual English transliteration in Jewish Kabbalah, Sephiroth is the most common transliteration in Hermetic Qabalah for the same topic. Therefore a dab page should be maintained. Alternatively, redirect to Sephirot with a hatnote for the FF character. Skyerise ( talk) 19:26, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Comment should Sefirot be deemed the primary topic, I'm fine with Sefirot instead being the primary redirect. However, the article should have a hatnote leading to the video game character given the similar titles. In any case, the disambig page is unnecessary given this can just be handled by hatnotes. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 ( talk) 20:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect Sephiroth to Sefirot and add a hatnote to game character. Sefirot is the primary topic per WP:PT2 due to "long-term significance". -- Mika1h ( talk) 20:14, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to Sefirot with a hatnote for Sephiroth. I feel like this isn't a Mario situation, where the character is so big that they get priority over the name. - Cukie Gherkin ( talk) 22:57, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: In order to move
Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) to
Sephiroth. Redirecting this to
Sefirot because it doesn't seem that likely of a spelling mistake, and the current two disambiguation targets get around the same # of views. Cleo Cooper (
talk) 06:01, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- My mistake, it's not a spelling error. I still think
Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) should be moved here, and a hatnote can be added for
Sefirot. Cleo Cooper (
talk) 06:03, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- This is not about what first comes to mind, but about what is correct in policy. Moving the page clearly isn't. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ ( ᴛ) 09:27, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- My mistake, it's not a spelling error. I still think
Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) should be moved here, and a hatnote can be added for
Sefirot. Cleo Cooper (
talk) 06:03, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Toadette Edit! 21:19, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to Sefirot, add a hatnote for Sephiroth (Final Fantasy), I don't think Sephiroth would get priority over the name due to Sefirot having significantly more long term significance than the character.- Samoht27 ( talk) 21:19, 23 April 2024
- Redirect per above. MKsLifeInANutshell ( talk) 14:39, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: For what it's worth, straight-up "delete" is not applicable here since the title refers to at least one existent subject. (Otherwise, I do not have an opinion.) Steel1943 ( talk) 17:20, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to Sefirot with a hatnote for Sephiroth (Final Fantasy), per Samoht27 and MKsLifeInANutshell. This is the only fully policy-compliant option, as there is a clear primary topic of this WP:TWODABS situation. BD2412 T 20:46, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
Sephiroth
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Sephiroth ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This disambiguation page doesn't really seem to have a use, given it only contains two subjects, Sefirot and Sephiroth, which can easily have a hatnote at the top of their articles to accomplish the same disambiguation purpose. Given that Sephiroth is the name, and not Sefirot, which is only a similar sounding word, I'd suggest reclassing Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) to just Sephiroth, and then keeping the hatnote that leads to Sefirot in the case that someone is looking for the concept. Overall, though, this page seems unneeded. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 ( talk) 00:19, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Video games, and Religion. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 ( talk) 00:19, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- Delete per the above and WP:ONEOTHER. Jclemens ( talk) 01:00, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: WP:ONEOTHER and WP:DABPARTIAL. Unnecessary disambiguation page that can be resolved with a hatnote. Nothing else can logically be added to this. Agree with nom that Sephiroth is clearly the primary topic of the name so that article should be moved to Sephiroth without the disambiguator as well. StreetcarEnjoyer (talk) 01:13, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 01:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- Just FYI, there have been a few previous discussions relevant to explain why things are this way:
- Keep According to
WikiNav there is no primary topic, and in fact more clicks go to Sefirot than the FF character. Therefore despite it seeming "obvious" to video game fans, it clearly has a different meaning to the greater public.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 04:51, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- The primary topic for Sephiroth is not Sefirot, regardless of the relative pageviews. While they may be transliterating the same Hebrew term--and I'm not sure that's actually been established without looking into the FF character--similar but different names and content is exactly what hatnotes are for, isn't it?
Jclemens (
talk) 04:56, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- Britannica clearly says that "Sephiroth" is an alternate name for Sefirot. I think it's highly likely the FF character's name was based on said mythology, also given the naming of Jenova, which resembles a certain Biblical name of God. Knowing this, both Sefirot and the FF character are viable topics for the term, and a DAB page is required. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ ( ᴛ) 06:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- The primary topic for Sephiroth is not Sefirot, regardless of the relative pageviews. While they may be transliterating the same Hebrew term--and I'm not sure that's actually been established without looking into the FF character--similar but different names and content is exactly what hatnotes are for, isn't it?
Jclemens (
talk) 04:56, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ. No primary topic so WP:ONEOTHER is satisfied by keeping the page. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 12:23, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
DeleteRedirect to Sefirot per ONEOTHER. If Sefirot is indeed the primary target, per ZXC, then Sephiroth shouldbe deleted andbecome a redirect to Sefirot. There's no policy support for a two-page DAB. Axem Titanium ( talk) 18:07, 15 April 2024 (UTC)- I never said Sefirot was the primary target, but that there was no primary, though it might be arguable that Sefirot is primary by the longterm significance criterion. In that case, though, deletion is unnecessary, a primary redirect can simply be made. The main thing I am certain of is that the video game character is not primary, so there is zero scenario in which deletion of this page is merited.
- DABs can certainly be 2 pages if there is no clear meaning of the word.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 18:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- True, changed position. Saving thousands of people a DAB click per month is an end unto itself. Axem Titanium ( talk) 18:45, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- Delete and move Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) to here per nom. That's honestly the most logical choice.--
Kung Fu Man (
talk) 03:26, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- @
Kung Fu Man: Do you have a response to the WikiNav information showing that more people click through to Sefirot than to the FF character from here? Because it seems to indicate that making the character primary is the illogical choice.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 05:51, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- @
Zxcvbnm: It could also be a sake of curiosity and is the top result Zx. I mean I know if I was looking up Sephiroth and the first thing I saw was that my curiosity would be piqued.--
Kung Fu Man (
talk) 06:52, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- Let's say that I had a gut feeling that 95% of the visitors to this page were actually looking for the religious term, but got distracted by the FF character and curiously clicked on that link instead. It might sound ludicrous, but if I asked for evidence to refute it, there is none. The only thing we know for certain is the relative pageviews, therefore similarly, that argument cannot be confirmed.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 07:42, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- Zx you asked a question and I gave a response. Even WikiNav seems to indicate most of the results are coming from a search result. In any event, I'm standing by my decision on this. Even a basic search result on Google indicates that the fictional character is the primarily subject.-- Kung Fu Man ( talk) 12:48, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- Let's say that I had a gut feeling that 95% of the visitors to this page were actually looking for the religious term, but got distracted by the FF character and curiously clicked on that link instead. It might sound ludicrous, but if I asked for evidence to refute it, there is none. The only thing we know for certain is the relative pageviews, therefore similarly, that argument cannot be confirmed.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 07:42, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- @
Zxcvbnm: It could also be a sake of curiosity and is the top result Zx. I mean I know if I was looking up Sephiroth and the first thing I saw was that my curiosity would be piqued.--
Kung Fu Man (
talk) 06:52, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- @
Kung Fu Man: Do you have a response to the WikiNav information showing that more people click through to Sefirot than to the FF character from here? Because it seems to indicate that making the character primary is the illogical choice.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 05:51, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. After thinking about this a bit, this request is in essence a request to move
Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) to
Sephiroth although it is presented in the guise of discussing deletion of a
redirectdisambiguation page. As disambiguation is necessary, whether with through hatnotes or a disambiguation page, this page cannot be deleted until there is consensus to move established with a transparent and properly listed MOVE discussion (not through a backdoor AfD). And the watchers of Sephirot should be notified of the discussion. older ≠ wiser 17:08, 16 April 2024 (UTC)- Comment: I'm also OK with redirecting this to Sephirot with a hatnote to the Final Fantasy character. However, that same redirect was previously changed to a disambiguation page in this discussion. Pinging the participants: Steel1943, Dream Focus, Havradim. older ≠ wiser 17:06, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- Delete per WP:ONEOTHER. The disambiguation can be achieved with a hat note. Shooterwalker ( talk) 01:18, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- Delete per
WP:ONEOTHER. The disambiguation can be achieved with a hat note. Yes, I copied Shooterwalker. The hatnote will redirect people just as easily or as well as this unnecessary twodab.
Unless someone can provide evidence this is an actual alternate name/spelling for Sefirot and not simply a similar word, the character should be moved over it.I do see its noted as a transliteration in the lead, which my eyes refused to register earlier. -- ferret ( talk) 14:55, 17 April 2024 (UTC) - Delete. I guess hat note does work. 🥒 Greenish Pickle!🥒 ( 🔔) 22:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- Delete. There's already a hatnote, and it would make sense to have one. Basically saying "delete per WP:ONEOTHER." TWOrantulaTM ( enter the web) 01:01, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Comment These delete arguments do not address the WP:SURPRISE issue when people - actually most searchers - are looking for a religious term and land on a Final Fantasy character. While the DAB page may not technically be required, WP:ONEOTHER is specifically for when a primary topic exists. The FF character is in no way a primary topic for this term. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ ( ᴛ) 17:31, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Keep - while Sephirot is the usual English transliteration in Jewish Kabbalah, Sephiroth is the most common transliteration in Hermetic Qabalah for the same topic. Therefore a dab page should be maintained. Alternatively, redirect to Sephirot with a hatnote for the FF character. Skyerise ( talk) 19:26, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Comment should Sefirot be deemed the primary topic, I'm fine with Sefirot instead being the primary redirect. However, the article should have a hatnote leading to the video game character given the similar titles. In any case, the disambig page is unnecessary given this can just be handled by hatnotes. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 ( talk) 20:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect Sephiroth to Sefirot and add a hatnote to game character. Sefirot is the primary topic per WP:PT2 due to "long-term significance". -- Mika1h ( talk) 20:14, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to Sefirot with a hatnote for Sephiroth. I feel like this isn't a Mario situation, where the character is so big that they get priority over the name. - Cukie Gherkin ( talk) 22:57, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: In order to move
Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) to
Sephiroth. Redirecting this to
Sefirot because it doesn't seem that likely of a spelling mistake, and the current two disambiguation targets get around the same # of views. Cleo Cooper (
talk) 06:01, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- My mistake, it's not a spelling error. I still think
Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) should be moved here, and a hatnote can be added for
Sefirot. Cleo Cooper (
talk) 06:03, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- This is not about what first comes to mind, but about what is correct in policy. Moving the page clearly isn't. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ ( ᴛ) 09:27, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- My mistake, it's not a spelling error. I still think
Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) should be moved here, and a hatnote can be added for
Sefirot. Cleo Cooper (
talk) 06:03, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Toadette Edit! 21:19, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to Sefirot, add a hatnote for Sephiroth (Final Fantasy), I don't think Sephiroth would get priority over the name due to Sefirot having significantly more long term significance than the character.- Samoht27 ( talk) 21:19, 23 April 2024
- Redirect per above. MKsLifeInANutshell ( talk) 14:39, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: For what it's worth, straight-up "delete" is not applicable here since the title refers to at least one existent subject. (Otherwise, I do not have an opinion.) Steel1943 ( talk) 17:20, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to Sefirot with a hatnote for Sephiroth (Final Fantasy), per Samoht27 and MKsLifeInANutshell. This is the only fully policy-compliant option, as there is a clear primary topic of this WP:TWODABS situation. BD2412 T 20:46, 24 April 2024 (UTC)