The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Consensus is to Keep this article and I'm also influenced by the nominator considering whether or not to withdraw this nomination and even the lone Delete vote is for a Soft Delete made impossible by all of those advocating Keep. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:03, 12 February 2023 (UTC) reply

Johnny Hendren

Johnny Hendren (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)

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Fails NSPORTS due to lack of SIGCOV. The source cited in the article is simply a list of oldest footballers and not a reliable source. My WP:BEFORE turned up only a passing mention in a list in "Old Leather: An Oral History of Early Pro Football in Ohio", and a passing mention in a 1919 Newspaper article. No way of identifying if Johnny was his nickname and if so whether his real name was John or Jonathan, so impossible to link him to other J. Hendrens. I'm OK with straight redirecting to a Canton Bulldogs list or whatever, however these redirects are controversial so I prefer to do this via AFD. FOARP ( talk) 12:32, 4 February 2023 (UTC) reply

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. FOARP ( talk) 12:32, 4 February 2023 (UTC) reply
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: American football and Pennsylvania. Spiderone ^{(Talk to Spider)} 12:43, 4 February 2023 (UTC) reply
• Keep, he played eight games in the pioneering years of the NFL. Sourced by PFR. Randy Kryn ( talk) 14:02, 4 February 2023 (UTC) reply
• Comment - NSPORTS2022 decided that participation-based notability criteria (i.e., "he played X games, therefore notable") were no longer sufficient to sustain notability. Furthermore, purely statistical, all-encompassing databases such as PFR cannot be used to show the notability of a sports person per WP:SPORTBASIC. I feel that AFD !voters have the right to be wrong (though competence is needed and certainly you should listen) but straight voting as if the old inclusion criteria still applied and there wasn't a massive, well-attended discussion that decided otherwise, that Randy Kryn is well aware of because he's discussing it at ANI right now, makes me start to doubt this feeling - a right to be wrong does not extend to being disruptive just to make a point. FOARP ( talk) 14:40, 4 February 2023 (UTC) reply

• My point was to Keep per the players sourced accomplishments at PFR. Apology accepted. Randy Kryn ( talk) 14:44, 4 February 2023 (UTC) reply

• Your point is that policies that you are well aware of don't apply because . . . reasons? You know number of games played does not matter and simply referring to a sports database isn't enough (it wasn't even NSPORTS2022 that decided that BTW - SPORTSBASIC predates that). I mean this is AFD and probably not the place to discuss this, but seriously... FOARP ( talk) 14:56, 4 February 2023 (UTC) reply

• May I respectfully point out that WP:SPORTSBASIC is not a policy, it's a guideline. Guidelines are not Wikipedia gospel or even a random prayer. They are suggested but not required guidelines. In the case of accepting PFR as a reliable source for notability of a professional football player, in this case one of the pioneering players in the 1920-21 precursor-but-counts-as NFL who played a respectable eight games, I stand by my Keep comment. Randy Kryn ( talk) 15:03, 4 February 2023 (UTC) reply

• Randy Kryn - OK then, can you explain how PFR does support notability? For reference this is I think this is the link you are looking at and the entry in its entirety is this:

Johnny Hendren

John Crowther Hendren

Position: HB

5-10, 185lb (178cm, 83kg)

Born: April 25, 1897 in Philadelphia, PA

Died: June 3, 1964 (Aged 67-039d) in Drexel Hill, PA

College: Bucknell

High School: Northeast (PA)

SUMMARY

Career

G: 8 AV: GS: 1

I note that it says nothing about even how much of these games they played, what role they had in the games, and certainly does not substantiate any prominence in these games. This is exactly the case referred to by SPORTBASIC - a guideline/policy that predates SPORTS2022 - which tells us that a simple statistical database that includes every Pro-Football player who ever played does not indicate notability any more than e.g., a directory of professional lawyers, accountants, plumbers, or other all-inclusive directory of any other kind of professional including only basic statistical data about them. The entire point of the old, deprecated participation-based notability criteria was always supposed to be that people who played that many games *probably* had significant coverage out there, and not simply that they *were* notable simply for having played that many games, so even under the old criteria this would fail, because there is no significant coverage being produced at this point. I posted my WP:BEFORE results, you know I searched Newspapers.com and GBooks, as well as other sources, and didn't find SIGCOV - can you find it? FOARP ( talk) 15:23, 4 February 2023 (UTC) reply

• From WP:SPORTSBASSIC: "Please note that the failure to meet these criteria does not mean an article must be deleted; conversely, meeting any of these criteria does not mean that an article must be kept." Playing eight games in the pioneering NFL, that meets my personal criteria, which is what everyone applies when discussing whether or not to impose a guideline. Randy Kryn ( talk) 15:28, 4 February 2023 (UTC) reply

• Wikipedia decides by consensus, we don't just decide things by personal criteria. FOARP ( talk) 15:37, 4 February 2023 (UTC) reply

• I'm not closing this deletion attempt by deciding consensus, but merely voicing my opinion within the attempt. Putting it another way, if I meet a 1920-21 NFL pioneer veteran who played eight games I'd shake his hand, not tell him "That ain't beans" (at least to his face). I've !voted to include this one in Wikipedia on the same personal, but what I consider common sense, criteria. Randy Kryn ( talk) 15:43, 4 February 2023 (UTC) reply

• And I'd shake his hand right next to you, but the list of people whose hands I'd shake and those who should have articles about them on Wikipedia are not the same. FOARP ( talk) 15:54, 4 February 2023 (UTC) reply

• Thanks FOARP, lol (I only write that when I'm actually laughing out loud), I did do a poor job of wording that. But you know what I mean ("Mister, darn it, if you only had a biographical article on Wikipedia I'd be proud to shake your hand"). Looks like BeanieFan11 is doing a great job since I checked this page last, this player seems to have been notably active in a few places. Randy Kryn ( talk) 03:58, 5 February 2023 (UTC) reply

• Keep (or at least Draftify so I could turn it into something decent). We should keep this one. Hendren played eight games in the National Football League, was team captain at Bucknell, later played pro football for several other teams ( 1923 1924 and I know I saw more) and was mentioned many times in articles' titles for being one of the top performers in his games, see for example [1] [2] [3] [4] – then there's other coverage at [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] – and it seems that in nearly all of his college game reports he received several mentions (the same even in his NFL games), such as him being called the "star of the game," or one of Bucknell's best, etc. In my opinion, all this, added up, is enough to pass NBIO, which states, If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability. BeanieFan11 ( talk) 17:09, 4 February 2023 (UTC) reply

BeanieFan11 - the articles you've posted cover games for All-Lancaster by a man named Hendren - a relatively common surname. There is no first name or even an initial mentioned in them. These are play-by-plays that give no actual coverage or details of the individual. How do you know that these are the same man? There is, for example, no mention of Johnny Hendren having played for All-Lancaster in his PFR entry, and no evidence that these are the same man. For all of the rest - these are passing mentions, not significant coverage, which requires that the subject be addressed directly and in detail such that an article can be written about them.

It would help people greatly if you refrained from posting WP:REFBOMB-style answers and exercised more discretion in the links you post, rather than attempting to give the impression that the subject is notable by simple weight of the number of mentions (which I note are more than the number of NFL games this person is supposed to have played in). FOARP ( talk) 18:16, 4 February 2023 (UTC) reply

Are you seriously suggesting that articles such as [19] and [20] do not cover him directly and are "passing mentions"? And you're ignoring the reason I listed the more brief articles – to show a pass of NBIO, which specifically states If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability. BeanieFan11 ( talk) 18:50, 4 February 2023 (UTC) reply

As for whether the Hendren with All-Lancaster was the same, I find it highly unlikely that there were two halfbacks named Hendren who were top players in Pennsylvanian football in the late 1910s/early 1920s (especially since I was able to find him as playing pro football from 1920-21, 23-24 – it only makes sense that he would have been on Lancaster in 1922 – also, Pro-Football-Reference doesn't list those teams). BeanieFan11 ( talk) 18:53, 4 February 2023 (UTC) reply

Hendren is not so uncommon a surname that we can simply assume that there was no other Hendren playing. I see journalists, diplomats, and even a soldier by the name John/Johnny Hendren. What is required is positive proof that they were the same. It is hard to say that something “addresses the subject directly and in detail” if it doesn’t even give you their actual name. FOARP ( talk) 14:11, 5 February 2023 (UTC) reply

If the community felt that the requirement for SIGCOV sources on athletes could just be superseded by BASIC, that exception would have been addressed in the RfC. Instead, there was overwhelming support for all athlete bios to meet GNG and include at least one GNG-contributing source. So a bunch of passing and routine mentions -- which wouldn't contribute to BASIC anyway -- do not cut it.

Additionally, you're well aware obituaries do not count when independence cannot be established (and a listing in the obituaries section of a local newspaper will virtually always be a submission). JoelleJay ( talk) 17:26, 5 February 2023 (UTC) reply

• Comment If he was notable, it was probably for his college career rather than his professional career. There are a bunch of sources on Newspapers.com regarding him, mostly from his college career but I haven't found a significant one yet. While it isn't a great source, I do find it a bit interesting that there was a AP bulletin in several newspapers about his death in 1964 where he is mentioned as the former captain of the Bucknell University football team and former professional player [21] Alvaldi ( talk) 18:45, 4 February 2023 (UTC) reply
• Keep - the sources provided by BeanieFan11 in his 18:50, 4 February 2023 post, plus lots of shorter mentions are enough to convince me he meets GNG, especially given that most sources from 100 years ago are no longer accessible but that notability is not temporary. Rlendog ( talk) 14:49, 5 February 2023 (UTC) reply
• Keep per the sources and analysis provided by BeanieFan. The large number of references with small but non-trivial mentions of the subject allow for a pass of NBIO and GNG. Frank Anchor 16:09, 5 February 2023 (UTC) reply
• Keep, significant improvements since the nomination was made, clearly notable. — Locke Cole • t • c 23:12, 6 February 2023 (UTC) reply

.Soft Delete Most of the references currently in the article don't relate to his football career, and those that do are only passing. Without the football career what is it that would make him notable? That he fought in WW1 or was captain of his schools football team? -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆ transmissions∆ ° co-ords° 01:08, 7 February 2023 (UTC) reply

There is no requirement that SIGCOV sources in-depth cover a specific point in someone's life to count towards notability. What matters is if it covers him directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content – we clearly have sources here which do. BeanieFan11 ( talk) 01:13, 7 February 2023 (UTC) reply

So if someone appears in an article about a church fair as a child, that counts towards notability of their later gymnastic career? Sorry that shouldn't be right. NOR is not notability. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆ transmissions∆ ° co-ords° 09:33, 7 February 2023 (UTC) reply

We don't normally count towards notability coverage of a child (unless that coverage is very extensive), but college and after (and high school sometimes as well), we do count towards notability if it meets the definition of sigcov (covers the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content). BeanieFan11 ( talk) 17:04, 7 February 2023 (UTC) reply

Yes but I still still cover of playing college/high school football, which in itself doesn't seem notable. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆ transmissions∆ ° co-ords° 22:25, 7 February 2023 (UTC) reply

Yes but I still still cover of playing college/high school football – could you rephrase that? Also, plenty of college football players (and a few in high school, too) are notable for that. BeanieFan11 ( talk) 22:28, 7 February 2023 (UTC) reply

Sorry I'll try that again, I somehow didn't type ever part of the sentence. As an example the point I was trying to make, if "a" is not notable and "b" is not notable then "a/b" is also not notable. If someone doesn't have coverage to show they were notable for playing football at highschool/college, and they don't have coverage to show they were notable for playing in the NFL, then you have someone who is not notable. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆ transmissions∆ ° co-ords° 12:05, 9 February 2023 (UTC) reply

I agree in general if "a" is not notable and "b" is not notable then "a/b" is also not notable. This general rule may not apply to all subjects, however. The expectation for a professional athlete in an elite league is at least one GNG source to have a stand-alone article. While sports databases cannot be used as a RS to confer notability, they are not worth nothing, as they can be used to support content in the article. So, to me, subjects do not necessarily need contemporary RS coverage to have a stand-alone article. - Enos733 ( talk) 23:10, 9 February 2023 (UTC) reply

The recent widely attended RFC on the matter stated that these articles need to meet WP:GNG. One good source is not enough to pass the requirement. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆ transmissions∆ ° co-ords° 10:43, 10 February 2023 (UTC) reply

To be fair, the close of Proposal 1 in WP:NSPORTS2022 found no consensus on that specific point. The close did find that "sports biographies must include at least one reference to a source providing significant coverage of the subject." - Enos733 ( talk) 16:54, 10 February 2023 (UTC) reply

From the close Meeting this requirement alone does not indicate notability, but it does indicate that there are likely sufficient sources to meet the GNG.. I don't believe this discussion has actually found the sources sufficient to meet GNG. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆ transmissions∆ ° co-ords° 20:58, 10 February 2023 (UTC) reply

• Comment - I'm teetering on flipping to keep (but can't withdraw because there is one delete !vote), but the "wounded in France" piece is probably the best one - and the source appears to be Hendren himself since they attribute it to letters quoted by his family? That's not independent. The pieces saying simply "Hendren" I am inclined to discount unless there is something clearly indicating that it is Johnny Hendren that they are talking, Hendren is a fairly common surname and anyway the "Wounded in France" piece tells us he had a brother who was also a sportsman. Passing mentions are passing mentions - you cannot simply pile them up and say "this is SIGCOV" unless they collectively describe the subject directly and in detail, and they don't. I'm not knocking what BeanieFan11 has found (though I wish they led with their strongest sources and a description of why they support the subject rather than dropping 20+-cite REFBOMBs) but the fact that few/none mention his NFL career does give the lie to the idea that simply appearing in a given number of NFL matches automatically makes you notable, because if it did then reliable sources would also mention his NFL career as a notable thing that their readers needed to know. FOARP ( talk) 08:20, 8 February 2023 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.