- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete . Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:53, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
Alan Singh
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Alan Singh ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Rejected by AFC reviewers multiple times. Not significantly improved as per comments by the AFC reviewers, moved the page to the main space by one non-AFC reviewer. NP83 ( talk) 19:07, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People and History. NP83 ( talk) 19:07, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Royalty and nobility, India, and Rajasthan. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 19:52, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- Comment This page looks ridiculous in main space with all of those AFC tags and comments. Why didn't you move it back to Draft space?
Liz
Read!
Talk! 21:59, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
Liz actually I saw after publishing the article to the main space by an user, An experienced user made
this edit without draftifiyng the article from the main space so thought of creating a
AFD.
NP83 (
talk) 00:43, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- Please don't take my edits to have any meaning, but saying that the article has already been draftified once. So AfD was probably the right way to go. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆ transmissions∆ ° co-ords° 20:35, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- I edited on Wikipedia for the first time, so I made a mistake because I did not understand the sources so much and now I am continuously making new articles with good sources and you can also see that I have added good sources in this too. -- Karsan Chanda ( talk) 03:07, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- This person also holds an important place in the history of Rajasthan like Maharana Pratap and Prithviraj Chauhan. That's why it was possible to find its source, but the problem in the article was due to its different names. Otherwise the article would not have taken so much time. -- Karsan Chanda ( talk) 03:42, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
Liz actually I saw after publishing the article to the main space by an user, An experienced user made
this edit without draftifiyng the article from the main space so thought of creating a
AFD.
NP83 (
talk) 00:43, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- Delete Maybe someone with access to a research library could find some reliable sources, but searches on google, google scholar, and google books fail to bring up anything useful. Sidenote: why do we let people resubmit the same article half a dozen time when they have demonstrated zero willingness and/or ability to improve the article? -- Random person no 362478479 ( talk) 02:59, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- Delete - the feedback here is very useful in assessing this article. Unless someone can find clear WP:SIGCOV from multiple reliable sources, this needs to go. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 19:46, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- Weak delete I really tried with this one, using variations of the names given in the article, and turned up very little. While there are book sources listed in the article, it looks like they have very little with regard to WP:SIGCOV about this person's life story and rule. AFAICT, pretty much all we know about them is their name and that they existed, which may be enough for a line in another article or an entry in a list of rulers of the state they ruled or whatever, but there's not enough available to hang a whole article on. -- Jayron 32 12:40, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- Comment The sources in the article now seem to be very good, but there is no demonstration of WP:SIGCOV. Would it be possible for @ Karsan Chanda:, or someone else with access, to post here the exact text in the sources which mentions Alan Singh? Boynamedsue ( talk) 04:16, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Delete Alan Singh Chanda is a figure in the folkloric tradition of the
Meena community, whose historicity is essentially indeterminable. As
Hooja says
While the historicity of Tod's tale has been looked askance by scholars, similar popular versions continue to be told and re-told in Dhoondhar even today.
. And as Jadunath Sarkar notes (p. 22), all the variant versions were at best written down in the 18th c from oral tradition. The dates that the events central to the legends of Alan (the betrayal and killing of Alan by a Rajput usurper whom he had given refuge to as a child) are dated to ca 1007... or maybe 1128. There is little detail of the person in the any of these legends that would justify a stand-alone biographical article. And since several versions of these legends exist, trying to write a wiki-bio risks synthesizing a chimeric biography with bits and pieces aggregated from these variants (for example, the versions I read don't contain claims that Alan "established the city of Amber and got the Amber Fort constructed" but I wouldn't be surprised if such embellishments exist in some other tellings).
- (
TL;DR) there may be a place on wikipedia to write about the legends that mention Alan Singh Chanda, but a biographical article is not the way to go.
Abecedare (
talk) 16:49, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- You have read the story of Khogong and not of Khoh because both are same area and in Khoh area Chanda is mentioned but there is no story like Tod in it. -- Karsan Chanda ( talk) 02:08, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
Khoh
[1]
[2] --
Karsan Chanda (
talk) 04:26, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
-
Karsan Chanda Please can you provide the exact text, with translation into English if necessary. It may be that significant coverage exists, but the onus is on you to demonstrate this.
Boynamedsue (
talk) 08:42, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- There are better editors on Wikipedia than me who can explain it properly. Anyway I am unable to see these sources. --
Karsan Chanda (
talk) 12:24, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- I have read Hooja and all the relevant material is in snippets on pp. 391-95, wherein Hooja quotes Tod to talk about "Ralunsi, the Meena Raja" who was betrayed by the Rajput Dulha Rai (pp. 391-92); quotes Sarkar to talk about a "Ralhan-si, the Chauhan rajah of Lalsot district" who married his daughter to Dulha Rai and instigated him to attack his rivals (p. 393); and a "Meena chief called Chanda" who ruled the Meenas of Khoh, who Dulha Rai successfully attacked supposedly after already establishing a base kingdom and entering the marriage-alliances (p.394). No idea if these incompatible tales are about the same person. And no mention of "Alan Singh Chanda" per se. Further illustrates the risk of on-wiki synthesis.
- I don't have access to Kachhawan Ri Vanshavali (Genealogy of the Kachhwaha).
- Abecedare ( talk) 15:49, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- There are better editors on Wikipedia than me who can explain it properly. Anyway I am unable to see these sources. --
Karsan Chanda (
talk) 12:24, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
References
- ^ Kachhawan Ri Vanshavali. pp. Vll, 113, 125.
- ^ Rima Hooja (2006). A history of Rajasthan. Rupa & Co. pp. 144, 394, 395. ISBN 9788129108906. OCLC 80362053.
- the name of the place to Ramgard Dulha Rai then attacked deoti and held his sway over the place by ousting the Badgujars. Next he killed Chanda Mina of Khoh, Geta Mina of Getter and shifted his residence to Khoh from Dausa. It was at Khoh that Sodhdev expired in the year V S. 1063 (1006 A.D.)(p.VII).; Chanda Mina Chanda was not the proper name of the Mina ruler of Khoh . His name was Alansi and he was from the Chanda sub - caste of the Minas(p.113).; Finding it as an appropriate occasion, the Minas ousted the family from Manchi and the poor mother had to seek employment with Ralhan Mina of the 'Chanda' caste at Khoh on the advice of a 'Gujar'(p.125). -- Karsan Chanda ( talk) 03:22, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- There is a lot more in this but it is not possible to see. --
Karsan Chanda (
talk) 03:28, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- Ok, from what we are seeing here, there seems to be a problem with Common Name? Whoever we are talking about in these books doesn't seem to be called Alan Singh. Does the Madan Meena article mention the name?
- I am also a little worried about an article being written on the basis of a source that hasn't been fully read. Boynamedsue ( talk) 06:21, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, the name Alan Singh Chanda is present in Madan Meena's article. --
Karsan Chanda (
talk) 07:41, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- So, could you possibly, as requested, say how many paragraphs are present in the text which deal primarily with ASC? Boynamedsue ( talk) 20:34, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- According to the way it is written, there will be a big paragraph but it is impossible to see. -- Karsan Chanda ( talk) 23:24, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
...Tod in his book Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan in which Dulhe Rai and his mother were given protection by Alan Singh Chanda (the Meena chief) when they were exiled from...;… It was only after the deception of Dulhe Rai Kuchhawa with the Chanda Meena Alan Singh that the enmity between the Meenas and Rajputs became a lust for power. With the growing … -- Karsan Chanda ( talk) 00:45, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Delete for now The only source presented so far that may provide significant coverage has not been read by any editor, as far as I can tell. It may be that there is more out there, but it is pointless to set up an article at this stage. Boynamedsue ( talk) 05:41, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
Seeing this, it seems that it needs to take more trouble so that it can be explained properly. That's why the editors should not be in a hurry in this article. -- Karsan Chanda ( talk) 12:19, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Delete. Sources are weak or non-existent. The best case scenario is that Alan Singh was a non-notable local chief mentioned by Tod (not WP:RS). At worst, given the general unreliability of Tod, he never existed. RegentsPark ( comment) 12:45, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
book |first=Dick |last=Kooiman |year=2002|title=Communalism and Indian Princely States: Travancore, Baroda, and Hyderabad in the 1930s |publisher=Manohar|quote=CHANDA MEENA was the title of Bhil-Meena kings. Amer city (Modern Jaipur) was built by King AALAN SINGH CHANDA MEENA who ruled over Khoh Nagoriyan kingdom. Later days Chanda's and Chauhans who ruled over Delhi were closely related. Prithivi raj Chauhan's son was married to Aalan Singh Chanda's daughter.Rajputs themselves thus have some Bana Meena blood. Originally Chanda were considered a sub group of Chauhans a title of Banas. Chauhans later joined the Rajputs. By 1037 AD Amber kingdom of Chanda rulers was conquered by Kachwaha Rajputs ending Meena Chanda rule. -- Karsan Chanda ( talk) 22:45, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
Karsan Chanda: What is the page number for that quote?
Abecedare (
talk) 23:28, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- @ Abecedare: Karsan Chanda has mistaken a user review for book content. The quote is in a "user review" on the linked google books page, not in the book itself. RegentsPark ( comment) 00:17, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
Karsan Chanda: What is the page number for that quote?
Abecedare (
talk) 23:28, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
"Originally Chanda were considered a sub group of Chauhans with a title of Banas." When we search on Google by quoting this line, this information will be found but not the page number. -- Karsan Chanda ( talk) 00:25, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete . Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:53, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
Alan Singh
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Alan Singh ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Rejected by AFC reviewers multiple times. Not significantly improved as per comments by the AFC reviewers, moved the page to the main space by one non-AFC reviewer. NP83 ( talk) 19:07, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People and History. NP83 ( talk) 19:07, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Royalty and nobility, India, and Rajasthan. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 19:52, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- Comment This page looks ridiculous in main space with all of those AFC tags and comments. Why didn't you move it back to Draft space?
Liz
Read!
Talk! 21:59, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
Liz actually I saw after publishing the article to the main space by an user, An experienced user made
this edit without draftifiyng the article from the main space so thought of creating a
AFD.
NP83 (
talk) 00:43, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- Please don't take my edits to have any meaning, but saying that the article has already been draftified once. So AfD was probably the right way to go. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆ transmissions∆ ° co-ords° 20:35, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- I edited on Wikipedia for the first time, so I made a mistake because I did not understand the sources so much and now I am continuously making new articles with good sources and you can also see that I have added good sources in this too. -- Karsan Chanda ( talk) 03:07, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- This person also holds an important place in the history of Rajasthan like Maharana Pratap and Prithviraj Chauhan. That's why it was possible to find its source, but the problem in the article was due to its different names. Otherwise the article would not have taken so much time. -- Karsan Chanda ( talk) 03:42, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
Liz actually I saw after publishing the article to the main space by an user, An experienced user made
this edit without draftifiyng the article from the main space so thought of creating a
AFD.
NP83 (
talk) 00:43, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- Delete Maybe someone with access to a research library could find some reliable sources, but searches on google, google scholar, and google books fail to bring up anything useful. Sidenote: why do we let people resubmit the same article half a dozen time when they have demonstrated zero willingness and/or ability to improve the article? -- Random person no 362478479 ( talk) 02:59, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- Delete - the feedback here is very useful in assessing this article. Unless someone can find clear WP:SIGCOV from multiple reliable sources, this needs to go. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 19:46, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- Weak delete I really tried with this one, using variations of the names given in the article, and turned up very little. While there are book sources listed in the article, it looks like they have very little with regard to WP:SIGCOV about this person's life story and rule. AFAICT, pretty much all we know about them is their name and that they existed, which may be enough for a line in another article or an entry in a list of rulers of the state they ruled or whatever, but there's not enough available to hang a whole article on. -- Jayron 32 12:40, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- Comment The sources in the article now seem to be very good, but there is no demonstration of WP:SIGCOV. Would it be possible for @ Karsan Chanda:, or someone else with access, to post here the exact text in the sources which mentions Alan Singh? Boynamedsue ( talk) 04:16, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Delete Alan Singh Chanda is a figure in the folkloric tradition of the
Meena community, whose historicity is essentially indeterminable. As
Hooja says
While the historicity of Tod's tale has been looked askance by scholars, similar popular versions continue to be told and re-told in Dhoondhar even today.
. And as Jadunath Sarkar notes (p. 22), all the variant versions were at best written down in the 18th c from oral tradition. The dates that the events central to the legends of Alan (the betrayal and killing of Alan by a Rajput usurper whom he had given refuge to as a child) are dated to ca 1007... or maybe 1128. There is little detail of the person in the any of these legends that would justify a stand-alone biographical article. And since several versions of these legends exist, trying to write a wiki-bio risks synthesizing a chimeric biography with bits and pieces aggregated from these variants (for example, the versions I read don't contain claims that Alan "established the city of Amber and got the Amber Fort constructed" but I wouldn't be surprised if such embellishments exist in some other tellings).
- (
TL;DR) there may be a place on wikipedia to write about the legends that mention Alan Singh Chanda, but a biographical article is not the way to go.
Abecedare (
talk) 16:49, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- You have read the story of Khogong and not of Khoh because both are same area and in Khoh area Chanda is mentioned but there is no story like Tod in it. -- Karsan Chanda ( talk) 02:08, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
Khoh
[1]
[2] --
Karsan Chanda (
talk) 04:26, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
-
Karsan Chanda Please can you provide the exact text, with translation into English if necessary. It may be that significant coverage exists, but the onus is on you to demonstrate this.
Boynamedsue (
talk) 08:42, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- There are better editors on Wikipedia than me who can explain it properly. Anyway I am unable to see these sources. --
Karsan Chanda (
talk) 12:24, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- I have read Hooja and all the relevant material is in snippets on pp. 391-95, wherein Hooja quotes Tod to talk about "Ralunsi, the Meena Raja" who was betrayed by the Rajput Dulha Rai (pp. 391-92); quotes Sarkar to talk about a "Ralhan-si, the Chauhan rajah of Lalsot district" who married his daughter to Dulha Rai and instigated him to attack his rivals (p. 393); and a "Meena chief called Chanda" who ruled the Meenas of Khoh, who Dulha Rai successfully attacked supposedly after already establishing a base kingdom and entering the marriage-alliances (p.394). No idea if these incompatible tales are about the same person. And no mention of "Alan Singh Chanda" per se. Further illustrates the risk of on-wiki synthesis.
- I don't have access to Kachhawan Ri Vanshavali (Genealogy of the Kachhwaha).
- Abecedare ( talk) 15:49, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- There are better editors on Wikipedia than me who can explain it properly. Anyway I am unable to see these sources. --
Karsan Chanda (
talk) 12:24, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
References
- ^ Kachhawan Ri Vanshavali. pp. Vll, 113, 125.
- ^ Rima Hooja (2006). A history of Rajasthan. Rupa & Co. pp. 144, 394, 395. ISBN 9788129108906. OCLC 80362053.
- the name of the place to Ramgard Dulha Rai then attacked deoti and held his sway over the place by ousting the Badgujars. Next he killed Chanda Mina of Khoh, Geta Mina of Getter and shifted his residence to Khoh from Dausa. It was at Khoh that Sodhdev expired in the year V S. 1063 (1006 A.D.)(p.VII).; Chanda Mina Chanda was not the proper name of the Mina ruler of Khoh . His name was Alansi and he was from the Chanda sub - caste of the Minas(p.113).; Finding it as an appropriate occasion, the Minas ousted the family from Manchi and the poor mother had to seek employment with Ralhan Mina of the 'Chanda' caste at Khoh on the advice of a 'Gujar'(p.125). -- Karsan Chanda ( talk) 03:22, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- There is a lot more in this but it is not possible to see. --
Karsan Chanda (
talk) 03:28, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- Ok, from what we are seeing here, there seems to be a problem with Common Name? Whoever we are talking about in these books doesn't seem to be called Alan Singh. Does the Madan Meena article mention the name?
- I am also a little worried about an article being written on the basis of a source that hasn't been fully read. Boynamedsue ( talk) 06:21, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, the name Alan Singh Chanda is present in Madan Meena's article. --
Karsan Chanda (
talk) 07:41, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- So, could you possibly, as requested, say how many paragraphs are present in the text which deal primarily with ASC? Boynamedsue ( talk) 20:34, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- According to the way it is written, there will be a big paragraph but it is impossible to see. -- Karsan Chanda ( talk) 23:24, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
...Tod in his book Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan in which Dulhe Rai and his mother were given protection by Alan Singh Chanda (the Meena chief) when they were exiled from...;… It was only after the deception of Dulhe Rai Kuchhawa with the Chanda Meena Alan Singh that the enmity between the Meenas and Rajputs became a lust for power. With the growing … -- Karsan Chanda ( talk) 00:45, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Delete for now The only source presented so far that may provide significant coverage has not been read by any editor, as far as I can tell. It may be that there is more out there, but it is pointless to set up an article at this stage. Boynamedsue ( talk) 05:41, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
Seeing this, it seems that it needs to take more trouble so that it can be explained properly. That's why the editors should not be in a hurry in this article. -- Karsan Chanda ( talk) 12:19, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Delete. Sources are weak or non-existent. The best case scenario is that Alan Singh was a non-notable local chief mentioned by Tod (not WP:RS). At worst, given the general unreliability of Tod, he never existed. RegentsPark ( comment) 12:45, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
book |first=Dick |last=Kooiman |year=2002|title=Communalism and Indian Princely States: Travancore, Baroda, and Hyderabad in the 1930s |publisher=Manohar|quote=CHANDA MEENA was the title of Bhil-Meena kings. Amer city (Modern Jaipur) was built by King AALAN SINGH CHANDA MEENA who ruled over Khoh Nagoriyan kingdom. Later days Chanda's and Chauhans who ruled over Delhi were closely related. Prithivi raj Chauhan's son was married to Aalan Singh Chanda's daughter.Rajputs themselves thus have some Bana Meena blood. Originally Chanda were considered a sub group of Chauhans a title of Banas. Chauhans later joined the Rajputs. By 1037 AD Amber kingdom of Chanda rulers was conquered by Kachwaha Rajputs ending Meena Chanda rule. -- Karsan Chanda ( talk) 22:45, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
Karsan Chanda: What is the page number for that quote?
Abecedare (
talk) 23:28, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- @ Abecedare: Karsan Chanda has mistaken a user review for book content. The quote is in a "user review" on the linked google books page, not in the book itself. RegentsPark ( comment) 00:17, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
Karsan Chanda: What is the page number for that quote?
Abecedare (
talk) 23:28, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
"Originally Chanda were considered a sub group of Chauhans with a title of Banas." When we search on Google by quoting this line, this information will be found but not the page number. -- Karsan Chanda ( talk) 00:25, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.