Main case page ( Talk) — Evidence ( Talk) — Workshop ( Talk) — Proposed decision ( Talk)

Case clerk: NuclearWarfare ( Talk) Drafting arbitrator: Newyorkbrad ( Talk)

This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. The Arbitrators, parties to the case, and other editors may draft proposals and post them to this page for review and comments. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions—the same format as is used in Arbitration Committee decisions. The bottom of the page may be used for overall analysis of the /Evidence and for general discussion of the case.

Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only Arbitrators and clerks may edit, for voting, clarification as well as implementation purposes.

Motions and requests by the parties

Motion: scope of case

1) Hold the case as a general fact-finding case, in which no sanctions will be handed down. Ask participants to post a maximum of 5 articles to the evidence page, with analysis showing how and why the article is coatracked. You'll get a sampling of the most contentious cases, at least a couple dozen if not more, depending on how many editors post evidence. You'll get a good overview of the scope of the problem, but probably not in depth enough to levy sanctions. However, this would give you a platform to restate the obvious principles of editing BLPs, and give you the chance to draw some lines (this is acceptable but that is not). You could also then, if you choose, open individual cases that will examine certain editors in depth.

Comment by Arbitrators:

I understand the frustration of parties who aren't exactly sure how this is being cleaved or what's being dealt with; this case has suffered from coming in the smack of everyone yelling about everything else and being a badly-framed request with lots of people wanting lots of things. I don't think it's pointless to develop a sort of "best principles" result without sanctions—given that this is a novel approach anyhow, I would not think it kind to participants by essentially threatening sanctions for a lack of participation. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(
talk) 18:12, 5 August 2011 (UTC) reply

@Griswaldo: I have never said ArbCom is blameless. I'm more interested in proceeding with something useful and clear. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(
talk) 19:12, 5 August 2011 (UTC) reply

No problem. I understand how it might have seemed unclear, but by everyone I mean us too. I think that unfortunately this case landed in the middle of a bunch of other tasks and I don't think we did our due diligence in breaking them out at the time. Hopefully other arbs will chime in soon. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(
talk) 21:07, 5 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by parties:

Originally ~~proposed~~ suggested by User:Thatcher at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manipulation of BLPs/Workshop#Scope...really?. This addresses concerns about the lack of a clear scope for this case. Will Beback talk 02:22, 5 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Would this count as prior dispute resolution then? If we put up evidence from an entry that was not discussed in the Cirt RfC, for instance. Griswaldo ( talk) 02:29, 5 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Reply to Griswaldo: How would this be a form of dispute resolution? Rather, it seems like dispute identification. Will Beback talk 02:37, 5 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Then I oppose the motion because it is pointless. Why should we all be wasting our time identifying problems that cannot then be taken to Arbitration after being identified? Completely pointless, and not in line with what I was taking Thatcher to mean btw. I was taking Thatcher to mean that it would be enough to go from this to another case. Griswaldo ( talk) 02:52, 5 August 2011 (UTC) reply

The only votes which matter here are those of the ArbCom. Arbitrators might have a different view of whether this proposal would count as dispute resolution. Will Beback talk 02:55, 5 August 2011 (UTC) reply

The only votes which matter here are those of the ArbCom. And you're stating this because you thought they might forget that and might count my opposition along with their opinions? I'm stating my opinion Will, I think that's allowed. Cheers. Griswaldo ( talk) 03:04, 5 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I think the utter lack of evidence posted so far tends to show what a boondoggle this case is as currently framed. I'm named as a party, for no reason I can clearly identify, and I have no idea what sort of thing I should be even thinking about looking at as "evidence". I... I'm just speechless at where this thing is going. Thatcher's suggestion as moved by Will is at least a less onanistic way to proceed. // ⌘macwhiz ( talk) 03:28, 5 August 2011 (UTC) reply

My understand as it was proposed was to look at 1) the longstanding feuds between several editors. 2) the hostile and absurd behavior from several editors in the RFC/U.

RFC/U, 3) the accusations of BLP violations involving those editors in the cult topic area. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•( contribs) 16:55, 5 August 2011 (UTC) reply

@David Fuchs. Of course, you arbitrators are blameless regarding the whole situation of how this has been handled ... by you. First you took your sweet time. Then when you proposed a way to divide this up a great many of us, from every side of this dispute, asked questions and gave our concerns about what you had decided (in fact that's been one of the few things most of us have agreed upon). The questions went unanswered, and the concerns were not taken into account. Then you dragged your feet some more and now here we are, the culpable masses who have brought this all onto ourselves somehow. This is getting to be too absurd for me. Should we just close the case now and get it over with? Clearly nothing of value is coming of any of this. Griswaldo ( talk) 18:40, 5 August 2011 (UTC) reply

@David Fuchs. You went out of your way to say this - this case has suffered from coming in the smack of everyone yelling about everything else and being a badly-framed request with lots of people wanting lots of things. And that is all you had to say on the matter. So please understand that this comes of as an explanation for the confusion based on "everyone's yelling" etc. Cheers. Griswaldo ( talk) 19:41, 5 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by others:

Clarification: ~~proposed~~ suggested as one of several options, because the committee apparently does not have a meeting of the minds regarding scope (e.g. Kiril and John's comments). I still think, per my first comment, that this would be a waste of time. Policies already exist regarding BLPs, SEO is irrelevant (is BLP mischief less serious if google doesn't notice?), and the committee can draw lines by tossing out a few topic bans and probations (or more). But having one clear purpose is probably better than no clear purpose, even if the purpose is an exercise in restating the obvious. Thatcher 02:57, 5 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Motion to Close

2) This case has reached its natural conclusion.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Not just yet. A drafting arbitrator has now been assigned to the case (Newyorkbrad), and I believe they will be presenting some ideas on how to move this forward. – xeno ^talk 15:26, 9 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I don't think so. While there may be a significant divergence between this case and traditional cases, I think it appropriate for us to weigh in on how we, as a committee, would interpret the community's input in the RFC into principles which will be applied should similar issues arise in the future, as I opined on the Workshop talk page. Jclemens ( talk) 16:03, 9 August 2011 (UTC) reply

It may be that this case winds up with a reaffirmation of general principles, and guidelines for dispute resolution when there are allegations those principles have been violated, rather than with findings and sanctions against particular editors. That is in large function a measure of the unclarity when the case was opened coupled with the current state (or non-state) of the evidence page. But we will see what other evidence comes in, and then as drafter I anticipate being able to do something useful with the case, even though I was not the biggest proponent of splitting the request into two cases precisely as was done. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 16:05, 9 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by parties:

It looks like nothing further productive can be done. Let's close this case, and bring any lingering concerns about policy to WT:BLP, or about specific incidents to WP:BLPN. Thank you for your efforts. Jehochman ^Talk 20:35, 5 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Something useful would be nice. Although I can't see what that would be, I am willing to keep an open mind. How about paring down the list of names to only include those editors against whom evidence has been posted? If somebody comes forward with evidence, notify the editor and add them, not the other way around. It is unfair to grab an arbitrary group of editors and invite the community to submit evidence against them. Arbitrators volunteered for this job -- the rest of us didn't. Jehochman ^Talk 17:08, 9 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I have to agree. This doesn't seem to be going anywhere, and no on can agree on what its scope is or should be. If there are genuine disputes that require the committee's attention it'd be best to start over with a fresh request. Will Beback talk 06:45, 7 August 2011 (UTC) reply

@Newyorkbrad: What is the scope of the case? Why are these people parties? What specific disputes is the ArbCom trying to resolve? Will Beback talk 00:36, 10 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Brad, it's my understanding that Cla68 is planning to post much of the same evidence he presented in his Arpil request to open a "Lyndon LaRouche 3" case. That case was reject by the ArbCom. You specifically noted the lack of an ongoing dispute and found insufficient evidence to open a case. [1] Is this case a backdoor way of presenting the same evidence again? There have not been any significant disputes or dispute resolution efforts since then, so I don't see how it would be more appropriate now than five months ago. Will Beback talk 01:12, 10 August 2011 (UTC) reply

This case has been open for nine days and no significant evidence has been presented. Since I'm not sure of its actual scope, I'm not preparing any. If this is all there is then the case should be closed. I don't want to see a situation in which a ton of evidence is posted just before the deadline to add evidence, allowing no opportunity for adequate response. Will Beback talk 06:51, 11 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Its quite acceptable to request some extra time to respond to late posted evidence - I don't see any reason to close as the scope is only just being clarified and users will I expect then present evidence. Off2riorob ( talk) 17:23, 11 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Where has the scope been clarified? Will Beback talk 21:07, 11 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Roger seems to clear up the scope issues. Personally, I would like to see this case run following the closure of the User:Cirt/User:Jayen case, with a focus in this case on the Users that have assisted and have been enablers of User:Cirt's on wikipedia anti Scientology activism and his related long term policy violations, especially his WP:BLP and WP:NPOV violations. That would include you/ User:Will Beback and User:Chris0/ User:Prioryman and User:Jehochman and User:Coffeepusher and recently User:Quigley and a few others ... Off2riorob ( talk) 21:20, 11 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I don't see any place where the scope has been clarified. If you like to propose your version as the scope then I suggest you make a motion. Will Beback talk 22:01, 11 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I am focused on the User:Cirt/ User:Jayen466 case at present as that imo is the primary issue - without User:Cirt there is no one, and no policy violating content for the others to enable - I will only present evidence in this case under this portion of the apparent scope, I will not be presenting my scope as "the scope". There are a couple of other issues like Larouche but I have not involvement in them apart from to know that similar related, long term issues exist in that sector as the anti Scientology sector. Off2riorob ( talk) 22:57, 11 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I think the case may end up focusing equally on those who cast aspersions and attempt to turn Wikipedia into an ideological battlefield. Just because somebody disagrees does not mean that every possible method and means should be employed to DESTROY THEM!!!! That appears to be the motivation behind some of the people who've been chasing Cirt, and anybody else who steps up and says "Whoa, not so fast." The rush to denounce and sanction Cirt is one of the worst examples of mob justice on Wikipedia I've ever seen. Jehochman ^Talk 01:55, 12 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Off2riorob, you may be tempted to read Jehochman's statement as a direct threat intended to get you to back off. After all, his edit summary does say "note to Off2riorob" and you have been vocal about Cirt's activities. As someone with experience in Jehochman's ways, I can assure you that if you were to ask him if this were the case, he would very plainly tell you that it is not. Delicious carbuncle ( talk) 02:22, 12 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Delicious carbuncle, you had best not presume to be my spokesman because you're lousy at it. My statement speaks for itself. Being vocal isn't the problem. The problem is chasing an editor with the intent of applying sanctions, bullying those who denounce such activities, and treating dispute resolution as a mere formality, rather than using dispute resolution in a good faith effort to help correct editing problems. Jehochman ^Talk 02:32, 12 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Let me provide an example, "Hey Cirt, your zealous editing can cause problems in a collaborative environment. Could you please take care not to add excessive detail to biographical articles, and instead stick to the core facts that are more accurately referenced?" would be a fair criticism. "Cirt, you seem not to be responding to my concerns. Can we get a third party to help sort this out?" might be a follow on comment. There's nothing wrong with making a critical statement, but the approach should be as polite as possible, and the intention should be to correct the problem, not to create the prerequisite conditions for issuing sanctions at ANI or RFAR. Sanctions suck and should be used as little as possible, especially when dealing with editors who have contributed a lot to the project. Jehochman ^Talk 02:39, 12 August 2011 (UTC) reply

It seems like you are making another attempt to minimize the problems with Cirt's editing and re-frame the issue as one of "bullying" and "mob justice". Attempts at dispute resolution have so far not been successful, but that does not mean that they have not been explored. Your facile suggestions of how the discussion should have been phrased are literally years too late. When I filed an ArbCom enforcement request relating to what I perceived as clear violations of ARBSCI, I was confident that Cirt was aware of the issue and had had every opportunity to change their editing. Other cases of failed dispute resolution have been offered in the evidence already. To suggest, at this point, that dispute resolution has not been adequately explored is simply insulting to the ArbCom members who have undoubtedly considered that possibility and accepted this case anyway. It should be no surprise that editors concerned about neutrality and BLP issues are frustrated with the lack of action related to Cirt, but the issue here is really Cirt's editing. Delicious carbuncle ( talk) 13:47, 12 August 2011 (UTC) reply

. If you will suspend your assumptions of bad faith against me (eg "smokescreen" in your edit summary) we might try to debug this. Show me please the uninvolve third party voice of reason who you or anybody else has brought in to help resolve this dispute with Cirt. Lobbying for sanctions, head hunting and similar activities do not constitute dispute resolution. Show me the good faith dispute resolution please. Jehochman ^Talk 14:42, 12 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Are you kidding? Let's set aside people who might have some sort of ideological axe to grind with Cirt over NRMs. There was a slew of people, over the last year, who have become concerned with his negative editing of BLPs and his puffing up of other BLPs and non-BLP entries. Weren't these people previously uninvolved when they first noted their concerns? Do you really need them all listed to you with diffs? When Delicious Carbuncle and Cirt were engaged over the Jamie Sorrentini situation, many uninvilved users commented that both DC and Cirt should be topic banned from Scientology BLPs. I believe you specifically argued against this. Is your memory failing Mr. Hochman? Griswaldo ( talk) 14:56, 12 August 2011 (UTC) reply

The case has now been open for ten days without any significant evidence being added. Cla68 has indicated he's planning to add more evidence, but he has not answered two questions about whether he still plans to do so, or when. It appears that there was no dispute here after all. Will Beback talk 06:49, 12 August 2011 (UTC) reply
- Will that is logical fallacy, I would add evidence if the scope was clear and I knew what evidence was permitted. Is that not what you have been asking about for nearly 30? The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•( contribs) 14:09, 12 August 2011 (UTC) reply
  - I agree with you. It would be faster and fairer to go back to square one and start with a properly framed request for arbitration setting out e disputes and the parties. arbCom is doing us all a disservice by ignoring normal requirements for a case. Why the rush to do a bad job? Jehochman ^Talk 14:46, 12 August 2011 (UTC) reply
    - If I understand what has been said earlier, Cirt is not going to present their evidence before 15 August. I assume there will be time allowed for others to present evidence after that. I, for one, intend to wait until after Cirt's evidence is presented. Suggestions that this case should be closed when one of the two named parties is not expected to present until a few days from now seem to be disingenuous. If there are concrete suggestions about how the case could be restructured, perhaps they should be presented instead of simply clamouring for closure. Delicious carbuncle ( talk) 15:16, 12 August 2011 (UTC) reply
      - You ignored my polite request. Please link to the prior dispute resolution where you found a rational, uninvolved third party to help resolve your dispute with Cirt. Moreover, Cirt is not a party to this case, so his actions are not relevant here. This case has no defined scope. It should be closed. After Aug 15, or at any time in the future, any interested party can file a new request for arbitration that properly sets forth the dispute, the prior dispute resolution, and a concise list of parties. This improper case reflects very poorly on the Arbitration Committee. Jehochman ^Talk 15:24, 12 August 2011 (UTC) reply
        Answered by me already above. Here's your link. I count User:Mkativerata, User:HJ Mitchell, User:Scott MacDonald, User:Lar, and User:Jayron32 all supporting sanctions against Cirt. I see you and a couple of others running interference and wikilawyering the suggestion to death. In fact you were so eager, Hochman, that you mistook Jayron32 for Jayen and asked for his comments to be discounted before you were corrected. I ask you again, is your memory failing you? Griswaldo ( talk) 15:37, 12 August 2011 (UTC) reply
        Iswaldo, a request for sanctions at arbitration enforcement is NOT dispute resolution. I want to see examples of talk page discussions or mediation where a third party has counseled Cirt about editing problems. Jehochman ^Talk 17:45, 12 August 2011 (UTC) reply
        
        Jehochman, Cirt's editing was a recognized problem long before I got involved. I'm sorry, but I am not willing to spend any time searching through diffs just because you have asked politely. Your request has changed from "Show me please the uninvolve third party voice of reason who you or anybody else has brought in to help resolve this dispute with Cirt" to "Please link to the prior dispute resolution where you found a rational, uninvolved third party to help resolve your dispute with Cirt" in only a few minutes. If, as you say, Cirt not relevant to this case, I am going to continue to ignore your request, no matter how politely you phrase it. Delicious carbuncle ( talk) 16:10, 12 August 2011 (UTC) reply
        That's fine. I assert that there has been little to no good faith dispute resolution attempted with Cirt. (If you want to convince me otherwise, please post the links I requested.) Instead, we have witnessed a mob chasing Cirt bringing up multiple and sundry grievances--legitimate mixed with illegetimate. The ends don't justify the means. I am not asserting that Cirt's editing is correct. In fact, I closed the discussion against him in the Santorum naming controversy, and suspect that some of his editing has been incorrect. But, I will never condone the misuse of dispute resolution to settle scores with editorial opponents. The first step to resolving this is to disperse the mob. Then we can address the underlying question of Cirt's editing. Jehochman ^Talk 17:40, 12 August 2011 (UTC) reply

The case has now been open eleven days without any significant evidence. I think this may set a record. Will Beback talk 04:05, 13 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Has it ocurred to you that at least one person may actually have been on vacation for a substantial period of time and was waiting to place evidence? The anxiousness to shut off debate before anyone has spoken is not really in the tradition of any discussion group I can think of. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 12:01, 13 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Who are we waiting for? Will Beback talk 20:42, 13 August 2011 (UTC) reply

As I was several thousand miles away from home for more than two weeks, I think it is I who may have been one of those who did not provide "instant evidence". And I would like to think that many here had read my note so stating that I would be away. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 21:03, 13 August 2011 (UTC) reply

You've been very active elsewhere. You'll be adding evidence shortly? Will Beback talk 21:17, 13 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Did you really mean that? Collect ( talk) 21:21, 13 August 2011 (UTC) reply

The case has been open for nearly twelve days and no one has added any significant evidence. None of the 21 parties announced that they would be delayed in posting. The case has no clear scope and the ArbCom appears to be waiting for the submission of evidence to decide what the case is about. So until evidence is posted we don't know why we're here. So if you are going to post evidence please do so. Will Beback talk 21:46, 13 August 2011 (UTC) reply

IOW you find my four hundred words and diffs to be not "significant"? As I have posted evidence, and this was even noted outside Wikipedia, I think yu may need to purge your cache of the evidence page. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 22:01, 13 August 2011 (UTC) [2] shows my notce of being away. Sorry if it elided your notice. Collect ( talk) 22:06, 13 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I did miss that. But now that I read it, I don't see any allegations of violations of policy. If giving out barnstars to people who agree with you is a problem then that'd require writing a new policy to cover it. Elonka is not a party - should she be? As for the U.S. Labor material, no one claimed it was a BLP violation. The Washington Post is a reliable source for American political activities. There's been no efforts at dispute resolution on these issues. So if that's what this case is about then I don't see why we're here. Will Beback talk 22:11, 13 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Perhaps you should wait until others present evidence and see where it leads - right now I am aghast that a person can seriously claim that material removed from one article as a BLP violation is no longer a BLP violation when placed in another article! My evidence was not directed at any single editor, but aimed at showing that the problem exists, and is serious enough that ArbCom should (must) address it. Apparently it is your position that the 800 pound gorilla does not exist <g>. By the way, if ArbCom decides to allow additional editor-specific evidence, I suspect I and others will be able to find sufficient evidence. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 22:46, 13 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I've been waiting a month to learn what this case is about. As for the U.S. Labor material, no one claimed it was a BLP violation. Please identify this 800-pound gorilla so we can address it directly. Will Beback talk 22:56, 13 August 2011 (UTC) reply

The 800 pound-pound gorilla (or in this case 7 metric ton Tyrannosaurus) is the dysfunctional mess that I and several editors (including at least two of the arbitrators) had to deal with October 26-31, 2010 regarding the wild BLP claims being used to suppress any meaningful discussion on the talk pages regarding the use of an article by Stephen Barrett in the Weston Price biography article. As pointed out by one of the editors in the space of only six days four editors had 130 (one hundred and thirty) posts made to their talk pages and was editing-collapsing other editors comments and host of disruptive editing over what was ruled to be a nonexistent BLP issue.-- BruceGrubb ( talk) 23:33, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I don't think Cirt is eager to participate in the two ArbCom cases, he'll write up his evidence only because he was asked to do so by ArbCom. It should be clear that as far as Cirt is concerned, the matter was already settled before the start of the case. It is just that some other editors were not satisfied by Cirt's voluntary withdrawal from the problem areas.

It goes against the spirit of Arbitration to argue an old dispute if that dispute is no longer relevant for editing articles. One has to note here that Cirt's opponents have taken the position that an article that is not written according to their interpretation of NPOV and/or BLP is a ground for starting adminstrative action, even if editing that article to correct the problem as they see it, does not lead to any editing disputes with the original editor(s). Count Iblis ( talk) 16:24, 13 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Please suspend the assumptions of bad faith. There is no anxiousness to shut off debate. Anybody is welcome at any time to bring a properly framed request for arbitration setting forth the specifics of a dispute with a list of parties and "debate" the matter fully. That hasn't been done here, and our Arbitrators have made an error in starting this case. Nobody seems to agree what the case is about! How can we have a case when nobody agrees on the scope? I've been posting this criticism repeatedly. If anybody was able to clarify, they should have done so by now. Jehochman ^Talk 16:20, 13 August 2011 (UTC) reply

This discussion is supposedly about a motion to close this case. As such, I see no reason for comments about Cirt's supposed policy violations or supposed Anonymous-POV pushing to be placed here. There is already an entire case for that, where matters like this can be discussed, with evidence to back them up. NW ( Talk) 18:13, 14 August 2011 (UTC) reply

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

User:Cirt has clearly been shown in the evidence and discussion to have falsely claimed to have withdrawn from sectors he has disrupted and repeatedly over lengthy periods of time violated core policies in. We are waiting for User:Cirt to explain - the idea that he steps back an starts editing free speech legal cases is terrifying. - Lets see what he explains if he decides to - the User:Cirt is an anonymous (group) anti Scientology activist and his whole reason to contribute here is to further his and their anti Scientology activism and their related off wikipedia campaigns - this possibility has clearly been removed from him now and as I see it the user has nothing they want to do here apart from that driving force. Closing a few AFD discussions on a head count won't cut it. If User:Cirt is topic banned and desopped and limited to good article creation in the eight legged arachnid field I don't see a problem moving forward. Off2riorob ( talk) 21:53, 13 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Off2riorob, no one has added any evidence to either case that Cirt is a member of Anonymous. Your invective against Cirt is reaching the point of making personal attacks. Will Beback talk 02:14, 14 August 2011 (UTC) reply

User:Cirt has been discussed on Anonymous group chat threads as having assisted them in media file uploads and its indisputably clear that User:Cirt has assisted the group through his editing of wikipedia articles in support of their activism and off wiki campaigns. The fact that you attack me and defend User:Cirt's repeated, and over a period of years, attacks on the living subjects of multiple BLP articles is part of the enabling of his activism at wikipedia that has been a serious part of the problem. Without such enablers like yourself, who are willing to support the User:Cirt's policy violations because of a general support for the User:Cirt's contribution position this would never have been allowed to develop into such a problem. Off2riorob ( talk) 09:17, 14 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Now you're attacking me too. All without any evidence. Will Beback talk 09:38, 14 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Your vocal defense of User:Cirt through attacking others in the User:Cirt's RFC was clear enough and loudly complained about then. I think your support of the User:Cirt over the years is indisputable, and as such your support for his attacking the living subjects of our BLP articles, using wikipedia through policy violating contributions, imo you are partly responsible for the violations. Off2riorob ( talk) 09:44, 14 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I have not violated any policies or guidelines of this project, and you have not presented evidence to the contrary. Accusing me without evidence is a personal attack. Please stop. Will Beback talk 10:16, 14 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Not sure if your understanding its your enabling and support for User:Cirt's violations that I hold you responsible for, your don't need to have specifically violated any policies for that. Perhaps WP:Meat is the guideline. Off2riorob ( talk) 10:34, 14 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Prove that I supported violations of policies. That's an absurd and groundless attack. Will Beback talk 10:47, 14 August 2011 (UTC) reply

You have over a period of years supported and defended User:Cirt's BLP and NPOV policy and guideline violating anti Scientology activism through this project. Its a pretty uncontentious statement that is well known, what part of it do you dispute, that User:Cirt has over a period of years violated core policy .. or that you have been a vocal supporter of him and his editing? - Off2riorob ( talk) 10:50, 14 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Prove it. Will Beback talk 10:59, 14 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Later you can tell me which part you deny. Off2riorob ( talk) 11:02, 14 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I flatly deny violating any Wikipedia policy. Please do not repeat your accusations until you've provided evidence of violations. Will Beback talk 11:29, 14 August 2011 (UTC) reply

All of User:Cirt's enablers will say the same thing, - "I didn't violate policy" - but over a lengthy period of time you did repeatedly support a policy violator. - the fact is that it is users like yourself that have repeatedly supported the violator User:Cirt at every opportunity for his reform that have continued and supported and enlarged the User:Cirt's ability to violate through your enabling support and that is what has brought us to this place where there is imo no other option and nowhere for User:Cirt to go edit anymore....apart from fair article work on eight legged arachnids that is and no one believes that User:Cirt will take up the mantle of arachnid topic improver. Off2riorob ( talk) 16:41, 14 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Template

3)

Question to Delicious Carbuncle from Prioryman

What was your intention in posting the following on Wikipedia Review? "I am intending to do a monthly thread here about Cirt's Scientology edits, because I would like to help them kick their nasty habit. Cirt, I don't say this in a mean way, but when you edit articles related to Scientology, it makes your fingers and breath smell like Scientology. And no one wants to kiss someone whose breath smells like Scientology." [3]
A:

Thank you in advance for addressing this question that I repeatedly raised in the RfC/U but to which I received no response. Prioryman ( talk) 18:58, 18 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Question to Prioryman from Delicious carbuncle

I believe that the statement you are quoting above is fairly self-explanatory when one views it in context, but I have twice asked you to be more specific about which part you are having trouble understanding ( [4] & [5]). Since you have not answered despite continuing to participate in that thread, I can only assume that you are not actually interested in getting an answer. What was your intention in asking this question here? Delicious carbuncle ( talk) 03:19, 26 August 2011 (UTC) reply
A:

Proposed final decision Information

Proposals by Mathsci

Proposed principles

Decorum

1) Wikipedia users are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other users; to approach even difficult situations in a dignified fashion and with a constructive and collaborative outlook; and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute. Unseemly conduct, such as personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, harassment, or disruptive point-making, is prohibited.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Standard, adpated from previous ArbCom cases. Mathsci ( talk) 13:44, 14 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Conduct on arbitration pages

2) The pages associated with arbitration cases are primarily intended to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed, and expeditious resolution of each case. Participation by editors who present good-faith statements, evidence, and workshop proposals is appreciated. While allowance is made for the fact that parties and other interested editors may have strong feelings about the subject-matters of their dispute, appropriate decorum should be maintained on these pages. Incivility, personal attacks, and strident rhetoric should be avoided in arbitration as in all other areas of Wikipedia.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Standard, adapted from previous ArbCom cases. Mathsci ( talk) 13:44, 14 August 2011 (UTC) reply

BWHAAHAHAAHAAHAAAA....if only this would happen. or if only the clerks would enforce this with minimum 72 hr blocks....-- Rocksanddirt ( talk) 17:49, 19 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I have been concerned in particular by the way that Off2riorob has been behaving, and I've raised the issue with Hersfold here [6]. Hersfold did remove some of Off2riorob's comments but it's a shame that he wasn't reined in earlier. I think he needs a firm reminder about not making personal attacks. Prioryman ( talk) 18:48, 19 August 2011 (UTC) reply

@User:Prioryman - User:Hersfold after you raised your issue with him, as a clerk removed this single comment from me diff - , "In the case of your evidence, it whispers to itself" - it was in reference to the value of your evidence, Hersfold suggested to you that you explain it in detail yourself, in reply to your comment that your evidence "speaks for itself" - As I understood it from some posts I had read, discussion at arbitration is allowed a degree of leeway to assist focus on the issue - I wonder what niceties you expect after your false statements and what was imo and others basically sockpuppetry under a violated false right to vanish claim. I had to waste my time discussing with you without the proper disclosure of your previous involvement in the topic area. I still see your continued editing under this violated RTV username as disruptive. As for the alleged personal attacks - you have deliberately made false claims - that is a simple truth not a personal attack. Off2riorob ( talk) 17:28, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Proposed findings of fact

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2) {text of proposed finding of fact}

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Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

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1) {text of proposed remedy}

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Proposals by User:ResidentAnthropologist

Consistent The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•( contribs) 19:51, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

One caveat, I agree that mere membership is not a CoI by itself, but employment by a religious group should be treated as a CoI in the same way that it would be for employment by any other organisation that might be the subject of an editing dispute. I suggest mentioning that to avoid opening up a possible CoI loophole. Prioryman ( talk) 20:23, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

My principal does not dispute that. Will Beback suggested mere affiliation did as shown in the evidence. No evidence of that being Paid editing has been produced by either side thus that extension is not needed The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•( contribs) 20:34, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Fair enough. I was thinking about the wider context, not specifically about this case, and I don't mean to suggest that anyone here has been involved in paid editing. Prioryman ( talk) 20:40, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

The Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/COFS case dealt with editing from the office of a religious organization. We should be consistent or explain any variation. Jehochman ^Talk 20:41, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

That is what I was thinking of, but I couldn't remember the name of the case or editor. Thanks - your memory is obviously better than mine... Prioryman ( talk) 21:15, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Any issue which an editor feels more strongly about than Wikipedia is a conflict of interest. Editors have no conflict of interest if they care less about their religious or spiritual practices than about Wikipedia. But that's not the issue here.

The issue here is whether, in personal interactions on Wikipedia, one may hold a grudge against another editor who has added negative material to an article about a religion. In the context of such an investigation, then religious or spiritual affiliation is a relevant factor. I believe that Off2riorob and Jayen466 have a grudge against Cirt because Cirt has written so much about Osho community. Will Beback talk 22:21, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I think that belief falls more in the category of supposition than reasonable suspicion supported by hard evidence, of which I've seen none. Everything's possible, of course, but this isn't credible without something to back it up. Prioryman ( talk) 22:24, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Jayen466 openly admits he was an adherent of Osho. Off2riorob says he was not, but his early editing was exclusively focused on that topic and he has intimate knowledge of the movement. Whether they carry a grudge against Cirt, and whether that has been the cause of their hounding Cirt is, of course, speculation. Will Beback talk 22:26, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Just so. I don't think speculation has a place here. Certain editors here have been accused of all kinds of things based on nothing more than speculation and innuendo - this has been my primary concern throughout (Googlebombing accusations etc). I think it really does a disservice to fellow Wikipedians to accuse them of wrongdoing based on nothing more than speculation. If you're going to do that, you need to bring hard evidence to the table. Prioryman ( talk) 22:33, 20 August 2011 (UTC

I'm not adding evidence on this matter to the case. I'm just explaining why it was legitimate to discuss, on the RFCU talk page, the allegiances of two editors who have gone after Cirt for years. Will Beback talk 22:41, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Actually - I had to defend myself against User:Cirt for a couple of years, he was forever draggin me to ANI with his reports - in the beginning I had little idea what was going on and would find myself blocked by User:Yellowmonkey without a warning, after a while, people got wise to it and stopped acting in a knee jerk reaction against me and then I kept away from the user:Cirt as much as possible - and recently all my contact with the User:Cirt was to remove their policy violations - I have no grudge against User:Cirt at all - apart from that I should not have to be repeatedly removing an administrators policy violations. Off2riorob ( talk) 22:47, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

You are here admitting that you have had conflicts with him stretching back years.

Getting back to the proposed principle, if I'm Muslim, and I get mad at someone for saying something unpleasant about the Prophet (PBUH), and I follow that user around harassing him, then my faith would be a logical factor to look at when trying to understand my behavior. Likewise, if I held strong political beliefs, and hounded someone who'd expressed an incompatible ideology, then that would be a factor to look at when investigating the hounding. It's a largely separate issue from the conflict of interest issues surrounding editing articles. Will Beback talk 22:55, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I have no dispute at all with the User:Cirt apart from their policy violations- the ones I posted in my Cirt/Jayen evidence - I also agree with most of the other complaints of policy violations by User:Cirt in the evidence presented by others there. If User:Cirt had not been violating policy I would be only assisting them , as I have previously done in some of their reports to the BLP noticeboard. Off2riorob ( talk) 23:16, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

WIll you accused a number editors here there is a "clear connection between the anti-"Cirt faction" and Osho (Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh), Twelve Tribes communities, est/Landmark Education, Transcendental Meditation movement, etc."

You either need to begin to document those connections at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manipulation of BLPs/Evidence or I need to propose a "finding of Fact" that you have unable to back them up. Your claims were large part of what derailed the RFC/U, In that statement I have linked more you mention half a dozen groups, you clearly did not suggest Rob an Jayen had connection with all of them. You suggested the anti-Cirt faction. Even Now you claim Rob spent large amount of early edits in Osho article yet you do not provide evidence of it! I tired of you spurious accusation. Start backing up what you say for change: Provide Evidence not conjecture. 00:33, 21 August 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by ResidentAnthropologist ( talk • contribs)

OK, let's start with Twelve Tribes communities. Is there anyone here who has made substantial edits to the Twelve Tribes communities article? I raise my hand. Will Beback talk 12:22, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

And no one else? Will Beback talk 12:34, 25 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I have to agee with Will Beback that the degree of emotional involvement and identification with a movement is more important than any formal membership/affiliation of an organization. Andries ( talk) 19:40, 26 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by others:

Proposed findings of fact

Will Beback

1) Will Beback has repeatedly been uncivil with fellow editors in dispute resolution. Conduct including the casting of aspersions without providing evidence, [7] [8] [9] taunting, and baiting editors over their alleged religious affiliations. [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15]

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Comment by parties:

evidence is pretty clear on this. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•( contribs) 20:19, 20 August 2011 (UTC). reply

"Pretty clear"? How is this comment uncivil? [16] Will Beback talk 23:03, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

It's all provided on the evidence page, review civility guidelines. You entire tirade ridiculous was Ridiculous Will. You throw spurious accusations every-time you enter a conflict Will thats right in the "identifying Incivility" section Will 23:29, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Here's the posting that you say is a clear example of incivility:

Off2riorob, you wrote this three years:
oh hello cirt again..are you following me around ? I can do nothing without you appearing as if by magic! I shall take it as a mark of respect that you consider me worthy of tracking (Off2riorob (talk) 20:42, 11 May 2009 (UTC))

It appears that your relationship with Cirt predates the edits you're complaining about here. Is it incorrect to conclude that your negative views of Cirt date back several years? Will Beback talk 00:25, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that anyone would regard that as taunting, baiting, casting aspersions, or any other form of incivility. On this very page Off2riorob has admitted that his poor relations with Cirt date back several years. Will Beback talk 23:35, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I have to say Will has a good point here. He's asking a straightforward factual question. I don't think it's evidence of what RA is suggesting. Prioryman ( talk) 23:41, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I can go back into every conflict I have observed Will, Whether basing it on affiliation to "Wikipedia Review," Larouche or Scientology. It's a full pattern of Will's using the ad hominem attacks to win disputes. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•( contribs) 23:29, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

So far your only evidence against me has been from two days of editing an RFCU talk page. If this is going to be the "Will Beback" case then I'd complain that that's not within the scope of the case, and there's been little or no dispute resolution regarding my purported violations. Will Beback talk 23:51, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

WIll, You poke people with the sticks hoping they will react. Your conduct there poking Off2riorob with questions about his alleged affiliations with Osho was absurd. On it's own it would not be but look at the Pattern in just that section of RFC. You conduct was inexcusable. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•( contribs) 00:21, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

There is heated discussion but there is a line and Will crossed it. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•( contribs) 00:21, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Asking someone who has made extensive comments on an RFCU whether there's a history of disputes is not baiting them or poking them with a stick. There is plenty of evidence that Off2riorob cares a great deal about the Osho topic, a topic where Cirt wa very active but edited from what could be called the opposite viewpoint. I don't think that's an issue for this RFAR though. Will Beback talk 00:55, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Where is this evidence posted? I don't think I've seen it. Prioryman ( talk) 01:36, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I've replied on your user page. This isn't the topic of this arbitration. Will Beback talk 12:26, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

This is a case about "Manipulation of BLPs". How is incivility relevant? I think you should stick to instances of deleterious editing of BLP articles. This case isn't called "Everything Anybody Ever Did Wrong". Jehochman ^Talk 14:02, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

RA, you are correct that Will often attacks, belittles, and hectors those with whom he disagrees, often accompanied with exhaustive wikilawyering (see here for an example), and his questioning of editors about their religious beliefs at the Cirt RfC is but one example. It is, however, but one example, so perhaps it might help to find some more examples to support your proposal here. One place I would suggest looking is on the talk pages of BLPs in which Will was busy adding or preserving negative information, then check the talk page histories of the editors with whom Will was engaged in content disputes. Cla68 ( talk) 10:12, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

"Will often attacks, belittles, and hectors those with whom he disagrees," That's a flagrant personal attack. You've provided no evidence of this. Put up or shut up. Will Beback talk 12:17, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Will, I have asked you to put up evidence for the accusations and the insinuations you use to try and win disputes. I provided ample evidence of your misconduct in disputes start putting up evidence for all these COI you claimed existed. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•( contribs) 20:49, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I offered evidence in the RFCU thread. Will Beback talk 21:01, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Here is another example. Pretty much anyone who appears to threaten Will Beback's editing agenda is subject to this kind of treatment. Cla68 ( talk) 01:22, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

"Editing agenda"? It seems that every time you post here you make another unproven derogatory personal remark about me. Will Beback talk 22:26, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by others:

Not proven by the evidence of ResidentAnthropologist which relies solely on diffs from the RfC on Cirt. This ArbCom case was surely not devised for ArbCom to adjudicate on the behaviour of selected individuals participating in an RfC/U, where there was heated discussion between participants with widely differing views. Mathsci ( talk) 21:04, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I find this evidence singularly unimpressive. There has been a lot of gaming of the system going on here, and this is one example: using an RFC/U to doggedly question one editor's motivations - e.g. his anti-cult point of view - while declaring it strictly forbidden to even ask about the inquisitors' perceived pro-cult point of view. ArbCom should show equal respect for the viewpoints of all religious viewpoints, including atheists and skeptics. An RFC/U should not be license for one-sided attack. Wnt ( talk) 03:55, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

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2) {text of proposed finding of fact}

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Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Will Beback Admonished and Sanctioned

1) Will Beback is admonished for violations of civility policy in casting aspersions against fellow editors. Further violations of this behavior are subject to enforcement by escalating blocks.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Fits the evidence, Recidivism can be dealt with also. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•( contribs) 20:17, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by others:

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Delicious carbuncle's use of Wikipedia Review

1) Between July 2010–April 2011, Delicious carbuncle ( talk · contribs) systematically used the Wikipedia Review forum to mount a campaign against Cirt ( talk · contribs). His actions were characterised by an uninvolved admin on WP:AE as "a long campaign against Cirt, having posted about him extensively both on Wikipedia and on Wikipediareview for several months" and "a campaign of bad-faith harassment against another wikipedian". [17] Within a month of receiving a topic and interaction-with-Cirt ban (later overturned) he began posting monthly threads about Cirt's edits. He explicitly stated his intention to use the threads to force Cirt to stop editing articles related to Scientology, as set out in evidence here. His campaign was noticed on Wikipedia and he was asked to desist in February 2011, but did not do so.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Statement of fact. This relates to the principles of perceived harassment and conduct outside Wikipedia. It also provides background to the following finding of fact concerning abusive editing of a BLP in furtherance of this campaign. See also this proposal by Count Iblis which ties in quite nicely. Prioryman ( talk) 23:37, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by others:

Completely outside the scope of the case and ought to be removed by a clerk. Griswaldo ( talk) 08:08, 22 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Delicious carbuncle's edits to Jamie Sorrentini

2) In December 2010, DC made a number of edits to Jamie Sorrentini, a BLP, to repeatedly add a claim from a contested source. He received multiple warnings to desist from multiple administrators. After he was reported to WP:AE the reviewing administrators called his actions "egregious" and "a deliberate BLP violation as a WP:POINT maneuvre, specifically designed to set Cirt up", characterising it as "a campaign of bad-faith harassment against another wikipedian, conducted at the expense of a BLP subject", as evidenced here. In discussion on the article talk page, Cirt indicated that he had listened to the community's concerns and no longer supported the use of the source that DC was repeatedly adding.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Statement of fact. This relates to the principles concerning editing of BLPs and tendentious or disruptive editing. Prioryman ( talk) 23:15, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

@Delicious carbuncle: I stated clearly in my evidence "Consequently he was topic-banned (later overturned on procedural grounds)". Prioryman ( talk) 23:56, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

@Delicious carbuncle: HJ Mitchell says of your "misguided attempt" claim: "I'm sure ArbCom will be able to find the appropriate receptacle for that claim." [18] The fact that you make such a claim shows that even now you still don't get why what you did was wrong, and demonstrates the need for preventative action. Prioryman ( talk) 01:32, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

@Jayen466: That doesn't change the fact that Cirt had clearly changed his mind by the time DC tried edit-warring the source into the Sorrentini article. The ironic thing is that DC's action seem to have been completely unnecessary - had he desired to take the source out of other articles, it looks like Cirt would not have objected. Cirt even took the issue to the BLP/N to get consensus on the issue. [19] DC had no need to behave disruptively to make a point, not that he should have done even if he had. Prioryman ( talk) 14:00, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Here are my edits to that article: one, two, three, and four. Note that last two are simply restoring the material added in the first two edits after it was removed by User:Cirt. As you can see, I noted that Sorrentini was a Scientologist, sourced to a site that was in use on several other articles at the time. Although Cirt had themselves used that source to identify people as Scientologists, they reverted my changes with the extremely odd claim that there was no consensus to use the source. In subsequent discussion, it was agreed that the source was not reliable and all references were removed, but at the time there was no such consensus. What I should not have done is added Sorrentini to the category Category:American Scientologists. That was an error on my part based on a misreading of WP:BLPCAT and I will not repeat it. To claim that those edits are "manipulation" of a BLP is simply nonsense. The comments made in the ArbCom enforcement request are hard to square with my actual edits and were made, I believe, in a misguided attempt to support fellow admin Cirt. Although Prioryman left it out of their "evidence", the topic ban imposed upon me at that time was subsequently overturned. Delicious carbuncle ( talk) 23:43, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by others:

While Cirt claimed he had not used truthaboutscientology.com for years, he had reverted it back into a BLP-critical article less than six months before he made that statement, arguing that it was reliable. -- J N 466 13:37, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Consequences of Delicious carbuncle's actions

3) DC's actions gave rise to a strong perception, described by reviewing admins here, that he was harassing Cirt and seeking to orchestrate off-wiki pressure as a means of browbeating him into abandoning a topic area. He persisted over a period of 10 months and his conduct was premeditated and suffused with malice, as particularly indicated by this comment. In conjunction with this campaign he repeatedly manipulated a BLP, despite very strong warnings, to add contested material. This caused significant disruption, resulted in material potentially harmful to the reputation of a living person being added to the article, and led to a topic and interaction ban being imposed on him (subsequently set aside on a technicality). His motive was clearly connected to his anti-Cirt campaign. Instead of backing off he doubled down on his campaign and began posting monthly threads about Cirt, explicitly to increase pressure on the latter. He ignored requests to desist by two other editors. DC's actions contributed to a poisoned editing environment on Wikipedia and needlessly inflicted stress on Cirt.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Obvious corollaries to the first two findings of fact. Prioryman ( talk) 23:16, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

@Delicious carbuncle: This is already documented in evidence and dealt with in the first two findings of fact. I repeatedly raised this issue in the RfC/U but received no reply from you, particularly concerning your explicit statement that you wanted to force Cirt to stop editing in topic area by constantly pressuring him through WR. It's as clear a statement of intent to harass as I've ever read. Prioryman ( talk) 14:04, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by Delicious carbuncle:

It would be helpful if Prioryman either provided diffs and links to substantiate his accusations. I am accused, in essence, of "orchestrating" some form of off-wiki campaign to "harass" and "browbeat" Cirt. So far as I can tell from what has been presented, the totality of this campaign of harassment was noting in an off-wiki forum which of Cirt's edits appeared to violate Cirt's own pledges ( [20] & [21]) in regard to editing articles related to the Church of Scientology. As an attempt to "browbeat" or "harass" Cirt, this seems unlikely to be effective unless Cirt were to deliberately seek out and read the off-wiki forum. I would also suggest that Prioryman strike this version entirely and attempt to express his views without the inflammatory and distorting language used here. Unless diffs are provided to back up these accusations, unsubstantiated allegations like this fall squarely into the realm of a personal attack. Delicious carbuncle ( talk) 13:56, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by others:

This is completely out of scope and ought to be removed by a clerk. Griswaldo ( talk) 08:09, 22 August 2011 (UTC) reply

if this section by formerly vannished user belongs anywhere it belongs in the cirt/jayen arbitration. I don't think the diffs show what is alleged however. at least not as strongly as it is worded. -- Rocksanddirt ( talk) 18:43, 22 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Delicious carbuncle banned from Wikipedia

1) Due to egregious and sustained violations of Wikipedia's harassment policy and abusive editing of a BLP to gain advantage in a dispute with another editor, Delicious carbuncle ( talk · contribs) is banned from Wikipedia.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

This is really the only remedy appropriate for such serious infractions. I've never come across a more persistent and aggressive off-wiki campaign of harassment by an editor in good standing targeting another editor in good standing. Normally that sort of thing is done by banned users (and tends to be related to why they were banned in the first place). Likewise, using a BLP as a tool in a dispute with another editor is - as HJ Mitchell said in December 2010 - egregious. It was persistent, continued despite multiple very strong warnings and resulted in topic and interaction bans. (In hindsight it is unfortunate that they were set aside on a technicality, as there was no doubt about DC's culpability). Whatever legitimate concerns DC may have had, this kind of conduct is absolutely unacceptable, particularly when it involves inflicting potential harm on completely innocent and uninvolved BLP subjects. DC's culpability is all the greater for his actions with the Sorrentini BLP so clearly being related to his anti-Cirt campaign – there is simply no way that it should be acceptable for any editor to manipulate a BLP to gain advantage in a dispute with another editor. He got away with it because of technicalities but I think a strong message needs to be sent about the unacceptability of such conduct. Prioryman ( talk) 23:29, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

@Off2riorob: I ask myself what your reaction would have been if Cirt or I had done anything like what DC has done. I think the answer is obvious. Is it too much to ask for consistent enforcement of the rules on harassment and BLP editing? Prioryman ( talk) 23:48, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

@Off2riorob: I'm not for one moment complaining about DC in relation to anything he has done in regard to me. This solely concerns his actions in matters in which I have been wholly uninvolved, and which are germane to the scope of this case. Prioryman ( talk) 00:02, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

@Griswaldo: The answer to your question is that Delicious carbuncle abusively manipulated a BLP in the course of a lengthy campaign against Cirt. That's not just my judgement, it's what the reviewing admin at the time specifically stated. Banning is an appropriate remedy because of the extreme egregiousness of what he did - a message needs to be sent to others that such conduct is totally unacceptable in what is supposed to be a community of editors - and because he shows no sign of accepting the wrongness of what he did. Prioryman ( talk) 06:39, 22 August 2011 (UTC) reply

How is this related to the "Manipulation of BLPs"? If there is a harassment campaign, why not report it at WP:ANI and see if the community can deal with it? Jehochman ^Talk 14:00, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

It specifically involved the manipulation of a BLP in a bid to make a point against Cirt, in furtherance of a campaign of harassment that DC was waging on- and off-wiki. The stated scope of this case is to cover "partisan feuding/point-of-view pushing in BLPs", which is exactly what DC has done in this instance. Prioryman ( talk) 14:23, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by Delicious carbuncle:

I will, of course, accept whatever sanctions ArbCom deems appropriate. Delicious carbuncle ( talk) 01:21, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by others:

Severe, undue and partisan and boomerang come to mind. Off2riorob ( talk) 23:36, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

@Prioryman: My focus is as I have said - the repeated serious policy violations on wiki by User:Cirt - If a User follows such a path - there will naturally be a reaction, but the violator ( User:Cirt) is the cause and the primary issue here. You have a similar history and imo you are the violator attempting to point at the people complaining about your violations and blaming them for reporting you. - Off2riorob ( talk) 23:58, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

@Prioryman - as I have said to you before in relation to your RTV - what goes around comes around. If a User has spent years using wikipedia and their skills and authority here to demean and attack a group of living people that they oppose off wiki - then squealing -ow I am being discussed and my dubious editing history and contributions is under discussion at wikipedia review is quite frankly laughable and to be expected completely. Off2riorob ( talk) 00:09, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

This is news to me. What group of people has Prioryman been demeaning and attacking? Please, when you post things like that, assume that some readers might not know the whole story. Could you also put forth a few diffs to demonstrate some of these heinous actions. Jehochman ^Talk 00:11, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

User:Prioryman's contributions here at en wikipedia have been controlled and restricted for some time, he has been restricted at Arbitration from Scientology and climate change sectors after his repeated and extensive policy violations in both areas - He had his adminship removed because of his violations. I am not clued up but that basically is it as I understand - Off2riorob ( talk) 00:15, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I am aware of the sanctions and loss of adminship, and disappointed by Prioryman's errors. But I don't know that Prioryman has been "demean and attack a group of living people". Be careful not to just repeat stuff you hear without checking the facts yourself (and having the diffs to back it up). Jehochman ^Talk 00:33, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Actually that comment was more about User:Cirt if you read it back. User:Prioryman's arbitration editing restrictions have curtailed his violating additions in recent times. The idea as in this thread request that User:DC should be banned from the project for pointing at a repeat policy violator is part of the actual problem this arbitration has it seems been set up to attempt to direct editors and correct. Searching the editng restrictions ... User:Prioryman is banned from contributing to any WP:BLP article - is that right Jehochman? Off2riorob ( talk) 00:39, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Here it is - User:Prioryman/ User;ChrisO's previous arbcom sanctions. This was in the Climate change arbitration where User:Prioryman either jumped ship and asked for Right to vanish or was sanctioned in his absence. (feel free to clarify) User:ChrisO has been sanctioned four times in previous arbcom cases: warned for edit warring, inappropriate use of admin tools, and behavior in the Kosovo case, admonished in the Israeli apartheid case, banned from BLPs and use of admin tools within the Scientology topic, admonished in the Macedonia 2 case, desysopped for long-term editing and behavior issues in Macedonia 2. - how this violating Right to vanish user has the nerve to request another person is banned from the project is incomprehensible - Off2riorob ( talk) 01:00, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Oppose. A warning may be appropriate, but a site ban is excessive. [22] -- J N 466 13:42, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply
Also, just to put the abusive editing of the BLP into perspective, note that Sorrentini and her husband Tiziano Lugli do indeed consider themselves Scientologists (or at least did in July 2010). Both attended the 2010 Independent's Day weekend for example, an inaugural meeting for independent Scientologists who have broken with the Miscavige-led Church, but not with the Scientology religion: [23] [24] [25]). Also [26] There has for some time been a separate category, Category:Independent Scientologists, and while I don't propose adding Sorrentini to this category as long as there isn't evidence of mainstream media interest, the information DC added wasn't actually defamatory in my view. -- J N 466 16:15, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Oppose - this proposed sanction is completely over the top, and is based on evidence that is not within the cope of the case in any case. If Prioryman wants to start an RfC on Delicious Carbuncle he is more than welcome, but since when does alleged off wiki harassment have anything to do with the editing of BLPs? Griswaldo ( talk) 02:06, 22 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Oppose Noting one of my "proposed findings" below, and trusting in the good sense of the members. Collect ( talk) 11:43, 22 August 2011 (UTC) reply

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4) Wikipedia adopts a neutral point of view, and advocacy for any particular view is prohibited. In particular, Wikipedia's conflict of interest guidelines strongly discourage editors contributing "in order to promote their own interests." Neutrality is non-negotiable and requires that, whatever their personal feelings or interests, all editors must strive to ensure articles accurately reflect all significant viewpoints published by reliable sources and give prominence to such viewpoints in proportion to the weight of the source. Editors may contribute to Wikipedia only if they comply with Wikipedia's key policies.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

From Climate Change case Collect ( talk) 20:15, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by others:

Broadly speaking, I like this approach. This illustrates nicely the ways in which this case has similarities to the Climate Change case, whereas there are limits to the similarities with the Noleander case. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 15:08, 22 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Living persons

5) Any claim regarding a living person, or living person within a group, religion, economic group or social opinion group, must meet exceedingly high standards of sourcing. Opinions regarding any such person, religion, group, etc. must be clearly stated as opinion and not as fact, and must not be WP:UNDUE for the article in which it is placed. Categorization of any such person, group, etc. must also be exceedingly well-sourced, and can not ever be based on opinions alone. All such articles must abide scrupulously by Wikipedia policies. Even "horrible" people and groups must not have articles stating that they are horrid, or articles balanced to imply such.

Replaced with:

Any claim regarding a living person, or living person within a group, religion, economic group or social opinion group, must meet exceedingly high standards of sourcing. Opinions regarding any such person, religion, group, etc. must be clearly stated as opinion and not as fact, and must not be WP:UNDUE for the article in which it is placed. Categorization of any such person, group, etc. must also be exceedingly well-sourced, and can not ever be based on opinions alone. All such articles must abide scrupulously by Wikipedia policies.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed extention of prior BLP results in other cases Collect ( talk) 20:15, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

It's not up to the ArbCom to "extend" BLP or any other policy. But regardless of that, you appear to be suggesting that we should not even imply that Charles Manson was associated with bad activities, and that any negative information about him must be "balanced" be even more positive material. That would toss NPOV out the door. Will Beback talk 08:16, 22 August 2011 (UTC) reply

It would be nice to avoid straw issues - Manson should have the facts laid out in his article, which are strongly supported as facts by reliable sources. He should not have John Doe's opinion of him as "reincarnation of Hitler" added, nor should he be listed in [[Category:Hitler reincarnations]]. I trust this makes what I thought was clear in the above text even more clear. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 11:47, 22 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I've restored the text to which I was responding. It's confusing to delete text afte people have commented. 22:03, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't see any evidence about this. Will Beback talk 01:22, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Proposals to extend BLP to groups have been rejected repeatedly. Will Beback talk 03:53, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I would suggest you note that one of the core issues of the entire case is about the treatment of "cults." If we do not consider "cults" to be "groups" then you assert that nothing about "cults" (for example) should be covered by any BLP policies? I disagree, as do the committee, I trust. Collect ( talk) 05:56, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

The BLP policy applies to living individuals.

Cities and nations are made up of living people, so should the BLP policy apply to those as well? How about companies? Associations? Political parties? They too are made up of living people. Will Beback talk 06:22, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Um -- perhaps you did not read the paragraph. Cities are not "groups of people" nor are nations "groups of people" where I specified what the groups were. Groups are living people within a "group, religion, economic group or social opinion group." Thus the Climate-email-senders were found to be a BLP issue on Wikipedia even when not addressed as individuals. Members of a family are a "group." Members of a "cult" are a "group." And so on. The premise is that any article specifi=ying living people must adhere to BLP. Period. I am sorry you view this as heinous, but it is the only way to go. Did you realize Anders Breivik is now in scores of articles, mainly on topics barely connected to him? And that he is listed as the sole "notable member" of a major political party in Norway? That the gun he used now has his biographical material added to the article? That he is now the sole Norwegian example for Christian terrorism? I can not recite all of the articles with anything remotely like a straight face. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 12:14, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

When discussing very small groups, say of a dozen people or less, it's hard to avoid making generalizations that could be readily assigned to the individuals. But larger groups, like the 100-member US Senate, are large enough that comments are not easily attached to the individuals in it. Writing about a group that includes thousands, millions, or even a billion people is not like writing about a single individual. As I wrote above, previous efforts to extend BLP to groups have been rejected by the community, and it would be inappropriate for the ArbCom to do so without community support or input. Will Beback talk 21:31, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Suppose a "new religious group" has 10,000 members - would BLP not apply to claims which give an "opinion" such as (say) "Gnarphists are megalomaniacal" even if there is a "reliable source" for that general statement? Sorry Will - the facts of prior cases and the BLP rules do not disappear just because a group is too large for you. This case arose from the ashes of the TM, and Scientology cases among many others, and either the committee deals with this ongoing issue or it will have countless future cases. The only real solution, in my opinion, is for the committee to adopt specific principles at some point or another, and I think this is a reasonable prnciple to adopt. Else we shall continue to have "But John Doe studied Gnarph books, so he is clearly therefore properly labelled a Gnarphist" and the like. Elimination of such contentious "opinions" from BLP-related articles is an essential if Wikipedia is to advance. Or were you truly unaware of the "cult" BLP problem where the "cults" do, indeed, have more than a handful of people? Are you saying that ArbCom was wrong in the TM, Climate Change, and Scientology decisions? Cheers. Collect ( talk) 22:00, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by Arbitrators

Comment by parties

A tad obvious and stated here only to affirm I am neither deaf nor blind. (Juvenal?) Will made a point that he did not know that material was removed from one Larouche article on the basis of BLP concerns (nothing to do with the subject - insinuation and anonymous sources does seem to be a BLP rationale, no? which he then implanted into another Larouche article. Such statements cause me to wince. We also have some who think "evidence" means "attack someone" especially an attack totally unrelated to BLP and this case. More wincing. And then there are those who think the best thing is to just destroy all BLP standards. Major wince. I suggest the arbitrators are able to discern readily which editors argue thusly. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 20:15, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Can you provide diffs for the statements you claim that I've made? Will Beback talk 06:40, 22 August 2011 (UTC) reply

After I posted evidence, you asserted: [29]

The case has been open for nearly twelve days and no one has added any significant evidence. None of the 21 parties announced that they would be delayed in posting. The case has no clear scope and the ArbCom appears to be waiting for the submission of evidence to decide what the case is about. So until evidence is posted we don't know why we're here. So if you are going to post evidence please do so.

Then you posted: [30]

I've been waiting a month to learn what this case is about. As for the U.S. Labor material, no one claimed it was a BLP violation.

And I suggest this means Will did not apparently connect ''nothing to do with the subject - insinuation and anonymous sources with any concern at all about BLP requirements about "insinuation and anonymous sources" or else that he simply did not read the edit summary. As to Will's claim that he never said he did not know that material was removed from one Larouche article on the basis of BLP concerns, I trust the diff above shows that he did. Note that I have scrupulously tried to avoid attacking other editors in this proceeding. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 11:57, 22 August 2011 (UTC) reply

In other news: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manipulation_of_BLPs/Evidence#Evidence_presented_by_FuFoFuEd as it now stands is an admirable example. Collect ( talk) 15:32, 22 August 2011 (UTC) reply

And where was it claimed that it was a BLP violation? So far as I can tell, it was called a BLP violation only by Waalkes, an SPA, and then only because it was not directly related to the article it was in. [31] So it incorrect to say that moving the material to the U.S. Labor Party article was a BLP violation. There have been no complaints about since the move. Will Beback talk 22:09, 22 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Are you saying that material based on "insinuation and anonymous sources" is perfectly proper in a BLP by any chance? I had honestly thought that would be a quite untenable position to hold, but you are welcome to assert it, I suppose. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 00:59, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I'm saying that 1) that's an inaccurate assertion 2) it was made by an SPA 3) there have been no objections to the material in the current location. It is not a "clear violation of BLP" as alleged on the evidence page. Will Beback talk 01:26, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Great! Example of such behaviour even within this section <g>. So now the charge being bandied is that Off2riorob is an SPA? What issue, precisely, is he an "SPA" on? How many articles are encompassed by this "SPA"? Cheers - I like it when others make my case so clearly. Collect ( talk) 06:02, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

What behavior? Are you seriously saying that Waalkes is not an SPA? I think you'd have to be blind to miss that. Will Beback talk 06:17, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Off2riorob was the one who deleted the material and gave the edit summary. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 12:17, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Off2riorob isn't alleging a BLP violation. This is getting a bit obscure. Are you alleging a clear BLP violation of the material in its current location? Please give your complete view on why this is BLP-violating material in the U.S. Labor Party article. Will Beback talk 12:43, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Amazingly enough: nothing to do with the subject - insinuation and anonymous sources certainly sounds to everyone else like a BLP violation. Cheers. Anything more can easily go to the Talk page, it is not showing your arguments in a good light here. Collect ( talk) 13:10, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

What truly mystifies me is that this arbitration seems to be focusing a lot on material about the U.S. Labor Party, which is not a BLP; which I would agree with Off2riorob (!) belongs in an article about the party but not about a person with no evidence of direct involvement. Wnt ( talk) 16:05, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

The issue was a single diff in my evidence which Will seems to dwell on - it is not a major part of the case. It appears, however, to directly impact on Will's possible problems with findings yet to be made by the committee. By the way, the anonymously sourced claims about living people would, indeed, seem to be anonymously sourced claims about living people no matter what article they are in. By the way, can you tell me where Off2riorob said that this anonymously sourced material did not raise BLP concerns? Cheers. Collect ( talk) 16:52, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Off2riorob, not that he's an impartial arbiter, has indicated he doesn't see a problem with the material in its current location. [32] I don't see where the material mentions "anonymous sources". Just the opposite, it's pretty clear that the named people are the sources. If you wish to represent this as a flagrant BLP violation, then please explain your justification that characterization. Will Beback talk

The material, as added to the U.S. Labor Party article, was shoddy BLP editing in my opinion. The source made clear that LaRouche denied anyone had been physically threatened; the paragraph added left that out and appeared crafted to convey precisely the opposite impression, i.e. that LaRouche was aware of such threats, and endorsed them. [33] -- J N 466 15:14, 28 August 2011 (UTC) reply

That material is a correct, though not complete, summary of the source. It was written by user:SlimVirgin back in February. [34] Jayen466 added another line from it. [35] Will Beback talk 23:23, 28 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently

unless otherwise stated.

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WP:BLPGROUP was written to cover only very small groups - dozens rather than hundreds. Cla68, below, gives no reason why BLP should be selectively extended to cover certain groups. Also, an ArbCom case is not the right way to write policy. If folks want to argue for changes to it then they should make proposals at WT:BLP. Will Beback talk 00:24, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

dozens rather than hundreds? Really? Where does it say that? Let me answer for you. It doesn't. It simply talks about "small groups." Griswaldo ( talk) 00:36, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

It says it on the policy talk page where the text was proposed and agreed to. Scientology, with an estimated 20,000 members, is not even close to being a "small group". Even a few thousand is not a small group. Ten is a small group. Will Beback talk 00:54, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Like I said I don't know about Scientology. If you say a few thousand I'm assuming no it wouldn't apply. My real question, to Wnt, was if that's what he was aiming for. Griswaldo ( talk) 00:57, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

How are you defining "religion," Wnt? In some mainstream typologies a "religion," strictly speaking, is much larger and much more well established than a cult or an NRM. I would agree if you are following that view. Many of the groups that have been called cults, are so small that they would most probably not be excluded from BLP, per the very policy you quote. If this is aimed specifically at Scientology I'm not sure I can say earnestly where they fall in such a scheme. In fact, IMO they're not a religious group at all, and certainly not a political party. But I know they have religious status legally, and that NRM scholars tend to treat them as an NRM, and cult critics tend to call them a cult. Griswaldo ( talk) 00:18, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

@Wnt, I would tend to disagree with this. Most Religions would not fit under it, I think we generally can agree on that. Small religious communities can at times be very definition of WP:BLPGROUP. I can think of handful of new religious movements that could fit the definition but as general rule. I think Reworded version of this may be useful but definitive "never" is probably not appropriate. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•( contribs) 03:02, 26 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by others:

Cults and new religious movements probably should be included in the BLP rules. Cla68 ( talk) 23:56, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I was using "religion" in a very diffuse sense above. My feeling is if it's notable enough for Wikipedia to cover, a "new religious movement" will almost never be small enough to be covered under BLPGROUP, unless it's a group like the Manson Family or Heaven's Gate that gains notability by some unusual means. Wnt ( talk) 02:10, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Wikipedia policies apply to text removals and reversions

4) Conflicts often involve blanket removals of entire edits or sections. It is important to recognize that both addition and removal of information can violate policy, and neither should be taken uncritically as the "safe" or "default" option.

WP:SYN prohibits the formation of new conclusions in an article which are not based on its sources. Therefore, conclusions made by reliable sources should not be removed from an article solely because an editor personally finds them implausible.

WP:BLP#Criticism and praise urges proportionate treatment of disparate views. Removal of material can damage this proportionality, and so must comply with this policy.

WP:NPOV urges that articles be written without bias. This means that what is regarded as "contentious" or "negative" in a BLP should be defined by what is known of the subject from the available sources, not editor prejudices. Wnt ( talk) 16:28, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Good point. Deleting material can have a serious affect on NPOV, among other content policies, by removing context, references, and upsetting the balance and weighting. "If in doubt take it out" is not always the right answer. Will Beback talk 23:33, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by others:

Proposed. This is based on the Evidence section I submitted. Wnt ( talk) 16:28, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Dangerous. I'm not saying the concepts are completely without merit, however as a blanket principle it has the potential to do far more harm than good project wide.-- Cube lurker ( talk) 23:43, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Proposal by User:Cla68

Will Beback banned from BLPs

1) Will Beback is banned from editing articles, including the talk pages, of all BLPs in Wikipedia.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Based on Jehochman's evidence. Cla68 ( talk) 00:06, 29 August 2011 (UTC) reply

LOL. Please post an excerpt of the exact policy language which I violated so severely as to merit an editing ban. Will Beback talk 00:18, 29 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by others:

Moot now in view of the proposed decision. Even before that was announced, Newyorkbrad had made it perfectly clear that this case would not be concerned with individual editors. If Cla68 has grudges against individual editors, he should deal with that elsewhere, preferably off-wiki in the absence of credible evidence. Mathsci ( talk) 07:30, 29 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Proposals by User:Example 6

Proposed principles

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Place here items of evidence (with diffs) and detailed analysis

Evidence from ResidentAnthropologist

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

RA, what does your evidence have to do with the scope of this case, "Manipulation of BLPs"? Will Beback talk 22:14, 20 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Per Roger, " By long tradition cases examine the conduct of all the parties, and go pretty much where that leads.That applies as much to the "Manipulation of BLPs" case as any other" In that statement As Roger Indicated your spurious accusations and absurd conduct in RFC/U is the same arena as PrioryMan stuff. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•( contribs) 00:10, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

The topic of the case is "manipulation of BLPs", not "miscellaneous complaints about 21 different editors". Will Beback talk 00:57, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

@Arbs. Are conduct issues around the rfc/u in play for this case? Roger statement's suggest they are. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•( contribs) 04:48, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Regarding User:A_NRM_Researcher/Wikipedia_Cult_Wars. This page, by its title, its contents, and its cross-space redirect Wikipedia:CULTWARS, indicates a battleground mentality. He created it in June 2010 and made hundreds of edits to it until the account was blocked in October. It's a selective listing, which appears to omit any Twelve Trees-related disputes and in which he assigns himself only a minor part in this "war". Separately, using three different accounts at once, all writing about the same general topic, is not how Wikipedia is supposed to work. I think it would be fair to ask RA if he has used any other accounts. Will Beback talk 06:09, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by others:

Evidence from Waalkes

Waalkes ( talk · contribs) posts a complaint that I moved to the U.S. Labor Party some text which was deleted from the Lyndon LaRouche article. Collect ( talk · contribs) also refers to the same edit. The material was deleted, without any discussion, by Off2riorob ( talk · contribs). On the talk pages, the only objections had been raised by single purpose accounts. The material is sourced to the Washington Post, which is among the most reliable sources for American politics. It is apparently based on direct reporting and is not a violation of BLP in the Labor Party article. In short, the material in the U.S. Labor Party does not violate any Wikipedia policies or guidelines. Will Beback talk 12:51, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Waalkes has added more evidence, this time claiming that I got into a "battle" over content in the LaRouche article. That's overdramatic and incorrect. Rather, there's been a peaceful and productive discussion over how to describe one of LaRouche's closest associates, a discussion that Waalkes initiated because he wanted to add a longer description. [36] Jayen466 did most of the recent edits to the LaRouche article - I haven't made any significant edits to it in months. Will Beback talk 22:03, 26 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Collect ( talk · contribs), in a post below, makes insinuations about another LaRouche-related discussion and an article edit, but doesn't identify any actual problems with them. His participation in Talk:Views_of_Lyndon_LaRouche_and_the_LaRouche_movement#The_Queen_and_drug_trafficking_2 has been more disruptive than helpful, hijacking the thread to make vague complaints about the article and proposing sweeping changes without any rationale. Will Beback talk 23:17, 26 August 2011 (UTC) reply

FYI, Waalkes ( talk · contribs) is not an entirely new editor. He previously edited using a variety of IPs dating back to October 2010, [37] most recently as 81.210.206.223 ( talk · contribs · WHOIS) Will Beback talk 01:41, 23 August 2011 (UTC) Copied from Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2011-08-22/Arbitration report Will Beback talk 07:29, 27 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Will Beback is misrepresenting the evidence I posted. The material from the Washington Post is not "direct reporting," it is an opinion in the form of innuendo. It is a BLP violation to add it to either article because it does not involve either LaRouche or the US Labor Party directly. To include it because "some unnamed people suggest that LaRouche supporters may have been involved in foul play" is a violation of Wikipedia:BLP#Avoid gossip and feedback loops. People who push POV like to argue that if something appears in a newspaper in an article that also includes the subject's name, then it is fair to include it in the subject's article. This is poor judgment for any Wikipedia article, and not just BLPs. Waalkes ( talk) 20:08, 22 August 2011 (UTC) reply

That would be my assessment too. The issues with LaRouche are a piling on of a small number of primary sources. Those sources appear to be being paraphrased in news articles and then the news articles used as the article source. Its all round and round the garden, and it sets up a battleground. I have no clear knowledge of LaRouche he isn't someone that features in UK politics, however in reading the 1970s section it reads much like things that would be said by one Trotskyist group about another Trotskyist group, in fact I wasn't surprised to see that there is a connection between LaRouche and Gerry Healy the two seem to be from the same mould. In essence the LaRouche 1970s section is one side of an internecine war of words between Trotskyite splinter groups. In essence LaRouche warrants as much coverage as Healy, but the voluminous content is simply cause for conflict between supporters and detractors. John lilburne ( talk) 08:03, 27 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I asked a retired American journalist (in his 70s and center right in US politics) of his opinion on LaRouche and the WP article, his response was essentially: I'm biased against him and nearly got into a fist fight with supporters last election, considering the negative way most people view him the tone of the Wiki seems mild; the media lost interest in him decades ago - I wouldn't trust them to give unbiased reports, either, unless there was some reason to do extensive checks and analyses of his claims; LaRouche's great strength is in couching his assertions in ways that are very difficult to pick apart and evaluate; among a younger generation, relatively few will even know who you're talking about, if you bring up his name; he's such a charged figure that I doubt if many, or any, sources who are sufficiently interested in him can write about him in an unbiased way; you've hit on one of the weak spots in Wikipedia. When the subject is so charged with emotion, you're going to wind up with one side or the other dominating the entry -- or a raging battle that produces an unreliable result. John lilburne ( talk) 08:03, 27 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Walkes, looking a your edit history, there seems to be a fair chance tha you account violates WP:SCRUTINY. It is not normal for low edit count, single purpose accounts to appear at arbitration. Additionally, your earliest edits set up your userpage. That is something newbies typically don't do at first. Have you operated any other accounts? Jehochman ^Talk 22:59, 26 August 2011 (UTC) reply

IOW STFU? When I first edited here I got much the same sort of nonsense. John lilburne ( talk) 07:22, 27 August 2011 (UTC) reply

What does that mean? I am sure Waalkes is capable of answering a simple question without your misdirection. Jehochman ^Talk 08:20, 27 August 2011 (UTC) reply

It means that all too often around here, rather than addressing the points made, people impugn the source. However, one doesn't need to know that Mary Rosh is John Lott in order to counter incorrect information. BTW the link in previous sentence is an instructive deconstruction on how a lot of the news is created. HTHs John lilburne ( talk) 09:04, 27 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by others:

This content was under discussion somewhere, I don't really remember where, perhaps BLP noticeboard.. (I could likely find it if required) - I read the discussion and agreed the content was a bit tangential in the subjects BLP and boldly removed it - personally I never looked back to see what happened. I got a nudge a few days later on my talkpage that the material I removed had been inserted to the Labor Party - personally as it was kept out of the BLP I was happy with that as I said - User_talk:Off2riorob/Archive_11#Let_you_know - Off2riorob ( talk) 21:49, 21 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Moreover see Talk:Views_of_Lyndon_LaRouche_and_the_LaRouche_movement#The_Queen_and_drug_trafficking_2 and such ancient edits on the article page (months ago) as [38] in the ancient day of 10 July 2011. And slews of edits in the antediluvian period known as May 2011. One might surmise Will has had a quite ongoing interest in all things LaRouche. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 22:54, 26 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I also invite all arbitrators to see precisely how "disruptive" my posts are on the LaRouche Movement olio. In fact, I hereby submit Will's behaviour therein as an example of "ownership" incarnate. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 23:20, 26 August 2011 (UTC) reply

If you're going to make an accusation, show the evidence. Diffs? Will Beback talk 07:31, 27 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Usual response? "Evidence" is not "accusation" Will. I leave it to the committee to look at the evidence. You appear to conflate the two. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 12:26, 27 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Where is your evidence of ownership? You're simply pointing to a talk page and insinuating that somewhere on that page is evidence. How about some explicit diffs? If not, I may have to start a workshop thread about the problem of false and unsupported accusations, which have been too common in this case. Will Beback talk 22:27, 27 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Evidence presented by John Lilburne

"Almost all of the BLP issues have at their source current news events. It doesn't matter whether the event happened last week, or 10 - 40 years ago. The sourcing is almost all news reportage. Whether it is the ravings of the Norwegian child killer, or the ravings of a media controversialist, it might be news as entertainment but it should not be added to the articles of the subjects they rave about." Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manipulation of BLPs/Evidence#Evidence presented by John Lilburne

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What evidence? All I see is an essay. Will Beback talk 21:15, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Newspapers and other periodicals may print breaking news, but they also conduct investigations and in-depth analysis. If we eliminated all news stories from BLPs we'd not only lose most sources, but we'd probably have to delete half of the biographies, since so many articles are based purely on newspapers or magazines. Will Beback talk 03:18, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

For anyone whose mind is not closed tighter than a rats arse, or so open that their brain has fallen out, there is plenty of evidence there. But to spell it out, you cannot source a NPOV article from news reports. This is because news reports are not neutral. They are predominately sensational, agenda driven, and frequently written by either the subject or the subject's detractor. Back in the 1970s there was a book written by one of the senior members of the National Union of Journalists ('Guardian' or 'Times' father of chapel), I forget the name and title ("How to use the press"?), but not the lessons, which were very effective.

The book taught me that if I wanted to get a story into the press, then I should slant the press release so that is it had a nice hook to suite the particular publication POV, and to construct the release so that the journalist had a minimal of work to make MY copy suitable for publication. If I did the job well my press release got reported verbatim. Now back in the 1970s it was radical stuff written for activists and trades unionists, the mainstream caught up in mid 1980s and then we got PR consultants and spin-doctors, and now everyone does it: politicians, companies, celebrities, single issue pressure groups, science foundations, et al. The execution has become a skilled, well paid job, and profession. You can see it happen with WMF stories in the press, you get batches of them all on the same theme, all with the same slant, all using similar phrases. Articles about WMF are no different from other articles in the press. Make no mistake the majority of press articles are not independently researched, they are most often supplied by sources that hold a stake in the issue, and the more that an article relies on such sources the more BLP issues will accumulate. John lilburne ( talk) 10:44, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

This article is cited to a single news source.: Battle of Do Ab. Is it an NPOV or BLP violation because of that? Will Beback talk 11:20, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Is there a BLP issue there? However, we know from both the Vietnam war and to a certain extent the both Gulf Wars that reliance on a single source,

The American military said in a statement late Thursday that 11 people had been killed: nine insurgents and two civilians. According to the statement, American troops were conducting a raid when they were hit by small-arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades. The American troops called in reinforcements and attack helicopters. In the ensuing fight, the statement said, the two Reuters employees and nine insurgents were killed.

particularly one that has an stake in the issue, often turns out to be wrong. John lilburne ( talk) 12:30, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by others:

I think this is a very important observation. I don't have a good idea how to work this into the blp policy and how to deal with the myriad of AFD's that would come from restriction on use of news sources for notability in blp's. -- Rocksanddirt ( talk) 16:48, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I agree. Lilburne hit the nail squarely on the head. -- J N 466 19:11, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

No, this is nonsense. There have certainly been problems with the way that some news stories have been used in some articles. That is a long way from saying that current news stories shouldn't be used in any article. That's far too sweeping. It's an argument for saying that Wikipedia shouldn't have any articles on current events, as there would be no way of sourcing them if they didn't use news reporting. That is not going to be acceptable to the vast majority of the community. Wikipedia is a very well-established and well-regarded summariser of major news events and we have an entire section on the Main Page on current news events. A proposition like this is as extreme and impractical as a proposition that BLP should be abolished. Prioryman ( talk) 19:22, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

An encyclopedia is simply not a news aggregator. There is nothing wrong with taking current events and aggregating stories from reliable sources and keeping abreast with the 24 hour news cycle, but that's not what a tertiary source does. Tertiary sources are for established facts, you know the really reliable stuff that could even be considered "common knowledge." I think there are more in the community who disagree with you than you think Prioryman. I, for one, think that we ought to get with the program of being an encyclopedia or else find a new identity (see my linked comment below). Griswaldo ( talk) 19:28, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

No one said that "current news stories shouldn't be used in any article". But it's true that there is often something wrong about the way they are used, which is something you concede as well. Sometimes it's not even mainstream news, but blogs. So I don't think we are in disagreement here. What's hard to pinpoint, and legislate for, is where exactly the line is crossed. -- J N 466 19:32, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Let me illustrate what I mean with an example I saw first-hand of news sources being misused for partisan purposes. Last year a right-wing Israeli tabloid newspaper ran a story about Judge Richard Goldstone of South Africa, who chaired a very controversial UN commission on Israel's 2008 Gaza War. The story claimed that Goldstone, while serving as an appeal judge in apartheid South Africa, sentenced many people to death. It explicitly aimed to discredit Goldstone's reputation as a champion of human rights. It was an obvious partisan attack and factually wrong. Yet a number of editors repeatedly sought to edit-war a lengthy, mostly one-sided and completely undue-weight account of this claim, even including accusations that he was equivalent to a Nazi war criminal, into the article (see e.g. [39]). There were also repeated blatant violations of BLP, such as using blogs as sources. This material was eventually kept out of the article due to the objections of several other editors including myself, though not without a great deal of trouble. The lessons I drew from this are: 1) news sources are not automatically bad but their use has to be carefully considered; (2) we already have rules on undue weight but in this case they were not being followed - I think this is the real root of the problem John alludes to; and (3) editors spend far too much time arguing about whether a source can be considered "reliable" and not enough time considering whether it is accurate. Where BLPs are concerned, accuracy must be a primary objective. Prioryman ( talk) 20:00, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

In the heat of the new cycle accuracy is rarely possible to establish to satisfaction. Also, even if it is we rely on consensus to allow that accuracy to be reflected. If a piece of information is particularly controversial, and therefore also particularly desirable for one side of a POV war, this becomes even harder. You say people waste time doing such and such. If we didn't rely so heavily on news in these situations less time would be wasted. Griswaldo ( talk) 20:15, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

You've missed the point. The claim being made was demonstrably wrong at the time that it was published. Appeal court judges don't sentence anyone, they only rule on lower courts' verdicts. It also completely contradicted 30 years' worth of published accounts of Goldstone's career. Those are massive WP:REDFLAGs, and believe me they were pointed out by myself and others. However, the editors pushing this material insisted that the red flags should be ignored and the material should be included in the article right now as it had been published by a "reliable source" - never mind the inaccuracy. That is primarily a behavioural problem. Getting BLPs right is not straightforward, as it involves an intersection of a lot of different policies, but my experience is that BLP problems are more often the result of editors being reckless and misusing sources than the sources themselves being inherently bad. Obviously some sources are, like tabloids, but there are many news sources that are of an extremely high quality. It's wrong to argue that news sources are not an appropriate source for encyclopedic information and you will not attract any support from the wider community from this - it might excite a few BLP vigilantes but not sensible people. Prioryman ( talk) 20:31, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I have not said that news sources can never be trusted, or that they can never be used in an encyclopedia. The problem is that news sources may often pose unique problems. 1) Again, in the heat of the news cycle the processes you seem to rely on to ensure accuracy simply cannot be trusted to work. 2) Years later news sources that generated information at the time of the event may still pose a problem if they are contradicted by other, more reliable sources but one fails to get a consensus when the issue is discussed. News sources should always be treated with caution, and should, when better sources are available be given less weight, especially if those news sources were generated soon after the event in question. The problem is, once again, that people do not abide by that approach and indeed when confronted often fight hard against it. In other words without consensus one's hands are tied. By the way how many other tertiary sources do you know that use news sources directly the way we do? I doubt you can name any. Griswaldo ( talk) 20:49, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

(ec) I also agree that news sources are at the heart of the problem. I made a comment recently about this problem that expresses my views generally on the matter. It doesn't just effect BLPs but that is an area where I think we see the most obvious damage to the project. Griswaldo ( talk) 19:25, 23 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Breaking news is an invaluable tool. While it is true that many nuances about a story will emerge only in time, Wikipedia readers don't want to wait, and they shouldn't be forced to. By collating many dozens of news stories from all over the world, Wikipedia gives a much better view of the topic than any one of them. That is the essence of being encyclopedic. No, you won't find find stories like that in your granddaddy's old Encyclopedia Brittannica set. But it's the sort of good writing that one finds in works by Noam Chomsky and similar high quality academic tertiary sources in the liberal arts. Wnt ( talk) 02:29, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Problem: biographies have narrative, they are not simply a staccatoed stumble from one press cutting to another, they provide analysis and context. And you simply won't find a news stories from all over the world that have independently address some aspect in the life of an obscure academic from Snakesville Florida. I may be mistaken but hasn't Noam Chomsky (one of my early heroes, before I killed them all), criticised reliance on news articles as independent sources, in much the same way as I've done here. John lilburne ( talk) 11:09, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

What Noam Chomsky showed me is that if you're willing to get together all the news coverage on a topic you can, eventually the bias gives way to that telling detail printed in a little blurb on Page 31. The news media may spin the story terribly, focus on irrelevancies, but they're not entirely dishonest and occasionally the truth gets out. Wikipedia has the best chance of reaching the truth of the matter when people freely collect all the relevant news together so that the details that explain things become visible.

I don't believe for one moment that he meant that one should soak the readers in a stream of effluent. John lilburne ( talk) 18:34, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I don't think we should expect Wikipedia to have perfect, book-quality biographies; nor can we have as seamless a narrative as a friendly biography by an author who is willing to gloss over details in order to make everything sound like it fits together. Life is a random, chaotic process that wasn't made to fit together. The facts will have multiple, contradictory explanations even if you knew them all. I distrust narrative; a jumble of clippings I can take as a sort of fact, as long as I remember the fact is only that those people said those things. Wnt ( talk) 15:41, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Evidence presented by Mathsci

Mathsci mentions the book Misunderstanding Cults, which was an effort by top religious scholars to depolarise academic debate, and find middle ground. As he says, some reputable contributors critique Lewis and Melton. However, there are equally reputable contributors in the book critiquing scholars who hold broadly opposing views to Lewis and Melton, say, Stephen A. Kent and Benjamin Zablocki, on theoretical and methodological grounds. The book presents both sides of the debate.

Wikipedia similarly has to present views from across the academic spectrum of opinion -- we need to reflect both the Kents and the Meltons of religious scholarship. If Mathsci's evidence was meant to impugn Melton's and Lewis' standing as reliable sources, this will not fly.

Melton writes encyclopedias for Gale, is one of the most prolific contributors to Encyclopedia Britannica, and one of the most widely cited scholars in the field, both in scholarship [40] and the media [41]. His Encyclopedia of American Religions, now in its 8th edition, has been the standard reference work in the field for 25 years.
Lewis is likewise widely cited and has written multiple reference works for top publishers, including both Oxford University Press and Cambridge University Press. He has been quoted in the New York Times, Los Angeles Times and others. [42]

These are mainstream scholars, among the top sources as defined by our sourcing policies and guidelines. -- J N 466 14:12, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

In his evidence Mathsci mentions that "[t]he phenomenon of what has sometimes been called 'cult apologist' has been analysed in the academic literature," but apparently doesn't understand that the very term is a slur that is not used by academics. It is discussed, as a pejorative term, by academics because cult critics use the term to demean the academics they don't agree with. Likewise academics don't use the term "cult bashers," which also appears in the book Mathsci has referenced, Misunderstanding Cults. These two terms are both hyperbolic in the context of that book, which according to the reviews I just read, appears itself to be controversial to some degree or another. One of the major criticisms is that book isn't balanced. While most of the critical scholars one could ever name are represented, many others who are less critical are not. In fact a few scholars, like James T. Richardson, dropped out of the project all together because he felt it was too divisive, and the book's editors themselves point out that "some colleagues in the academic establishment were ‘highly critical’ of the prospective book" (from the book review by Richard Singleberg in the Journal of Contemporary Religion). The bigger problem with Mathsci's evidence, however, is it's apparent lack of connection to this case. What exactly are you alleged regarding BLPs? Are you claiming that Residentanthropologist is sugar coating the BLPs of scholars that anti-cult activists are calling "cult apologists?" Is that the BLP issue? Griswaldo ( talk) 15:17, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Extended discussion about "cult apologist," a term I maintain should not be used as it is in the evidence Griswaldo ( talk) 11:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC) reply

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Mathsci, do you not understand how your language, quoted above, is a problem? If you understand the usage of this term, "cult apologist" then you ought to fix what you wrote. As of now you make it sound like "the academic literature" engages the concept of "cult apology" when it does not. That some academics like Stephen Kent have criticized other academics, like J. Gordon Melton, for being biased towards the NRMs they study is of course true. They have not, however, analyzed the concept of "cult apology" which is what you are claiming. Why do you insist to misrepresent the siutation in this fashion and to use a pejorative like that? I truly do not understand. Griswaldo ( talk) 17:57, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

"No" you don't understand or "no" you refuse to stop misrepresenting the use of a pejorative, unacademic term as if it is a concept studied by scholars? I'd say that you are, in your very evidence in this case, creating a bigger BLP problem than the one you claim exists. You're essentially claiming that two living people, J. Gordon Melton and James R. Lewis have been analyzed by scholars as "cult apologists," a highly pejorative term used by non-scholars to impugn the motives of scholars who don't agree with their own POVs regarding certain cults. You could very easily alter what you wrote and describe the situation in a neutral fashion, without the use of such pejoratives, but apparently you choose to violate BLP instead. Thanks. Griswaldo ( talk) 18:14, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Mathsci, I've added your violation as evidence on the evidence page, here. You are misrepresenting these "historical terms," as you call them and doing so in a way that violates BLP. Griswaldo ( talk) 18:35, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Mathsci, I tried very hard to explain the problem to you. You answered "no." Please show me the excessive rhetoric? I believe you are misrepresenting a source in a manner that enables the usage of a pejorative term when describing living people. There is nothing excessive about claiming that. I'll be happy to strike my evidence if you refrain from using that term. Until you do you're simply maligning living people. Griswaldo ( talk) 18:54, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

You sent emails? It might have been better to start a discussion on one of their talk pages where I could also participate instead of sending private correspondences. But to each their own. It surprises me that you are so resistant to rewriting a sentence or two to remove the term "cult apologist" while retaining the basic meaning of what you wrote, when you also keep on pointing out how this is not your area of interest. Why the resistance? What is the benefit of using a highly charged and derisive term where neutral language would suffice? When an editor resists neutrality in favor of derision, and it relates to a living person, I'm going to call them on it. If there is a case set up to deal with just that issue, I'm going to present it as evidence. Cheers. Griswaldo ( talk) 19:19, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

The problem is your use of "cult apologist" and your changes have all been to bolster the justification of this usage. I have, here and in my evidence described the situation in neutral terms, so you're not lacking for examples of how to do so. You can describe the manner in which Bromley and Melton's research has been criticized by other scholars without using that term. Again, I really don't understand why you are so resistant to doing so. You happened to read the introduction of Misunderstanding Cults. Is that why you cling to this term? Griswaldo ( talk) 19:39, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Mathsci, please provide diffs of me WP:BULLYING you or be so kind as to strike the comment lest it be seen as a personal attack. Thanks. Griswaldo ( talk) 19:54, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

This is hardly "bullying." You told me that you altered your evidence, and I explained to you why your alternations don't deal with the problem. You're welcome to add whatever you want to your evidence section, but I'm also welcome to analyze your evidence here. When I think I see BLP problem I'm also welcome to point it out. Just because you resist my analysis doesn't make it "bullying." Since you seem to sincerely believe that your diff is evidence of something, I'll gladly consider it in good faith, but please understand that I don't see it that way. I see an unfounded accusation. Cheers. Griswaldo ( talk) 20:08, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

There is certainly a schism within scholars of new religious movements. Both sides have respected scholars, but even respected scholars can be criticized and we all know how fierce academic disputes can be. When there are two sides to an issue, Wikipedia articles should include both views.

It is fine for Wikipedia editors to personally prefer one set of scholars over another, or to consult with them on writing articles. [43] [44] But those contacts should not result in the promotion of their views over those of other scholars. Will Beback talk 23:44, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Hardly, a "schism" that would be absurdly generous suggestion. Let us examine the so called "Cult Basher" and "Cult Apologist" sides prominence in Academia

The "Cult Bashers" aka Anticult movement,": The "Cult Basher" side is a small Academic org called the International Cultic Studies Association promoting a WP:Fringe discipline" called "Cultic Studies." Let's start with that off the bat: I can't find a single course titled that. In fact, all the hits are only for citations to their Journal and rather few at that! That strike me as WP:REDFLAG when assessing credibility for not being a mainstream viewpoint. Thats not even when you take one of their leaders is writing posistion papers claiming a conspiracy to silence them another text book example of WP:REDFLAG. They have rarely tried to dispute the "Cult apologists" on facts but claim bias and use ad-hominem attacks.
The "cult apologists": Looking into courses for "New Religious Movements" as "Cult apologists" call "cults" we see a big difference. You can find Syllabuses for Classes. Looking around you can find Text books by a Jesuit Priest, Sociologists and Anthropologists. There is even a book on Pedagogical Methodology in Teaching New Religious Movements published by Oxford University Press and the American Academy of Religion. Guess who has been head of the Society for the Scientific Study of Religion an awful lot of familiar "Cult Apologist"names on there? The President of Sociology of Religion Association wrote a text book that portrays the consensus on New Religions. Leading Psychologists of Religion write quite bluntly in their text book the "cult apologists" side as the dominant theories. There are three different Journals by Academic Presses devoted solely to the subject matter of New and Alternative Religious movements. Several Academic Publishers have publishing series of books on New and Alternative Religions including NYU Press and Ashgate Publishers in conjunction with Government Sponsored Charity in the UK. This is only stuff in English too, there is great corpus of research in other Languages especially German and Norwegian. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•( contribs) 04:14, 25 August 2011 (UTC) reply

To be there is definite WP:FRINGE in Academia and that is not the so called Cult Apologists. We should be following mainstream viewpoints in Academia and not give undue weight to minority view points. This is really no different than our Evolution/Creationism issues we deal with. Despite the Media and General publics perceptions of “flaws in evolution” we do not present that as the mainstream. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•( contribs) 04:16, 25 August 2011 (UTC) reply

RA can explain why he has singled out Will Beback for criticism in his evidence section, but I suspect it has something to do with the way Will edits articles related to cult/new religious movements. I've always contended that, in order to appear neutral, an article on a belief system needs to explain the system as its followers believe it. Then, the article can include a proportional section on criticism. The references that RA has added above appear to show that there are plenty of academic sources that could be used in these articles. One approach that I've seen used by editors to add negative information to articles about new religious movements is to attack the group's leader(s). This is one reason why the BLP policy should apply to these topics. Cla68 ( talk) 04:47, 25 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Yet another case in which Cla68 make negative personal comments about me without offering any proof whatsoever. Will Beback talk 05:28, 25 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Proposal inspired by this discussion: Due to this discussion I have made a proposal here - Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Religion/New_religious_movements_work_group#Proposal. Additional thoughts would be welcomed. Griswaldo ( talk) 13:28, 25 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by others:

I am aware of the caveats with the term "cult apologist", which is discussed in detail in the book I linked to. There it is explained early on that it would be used as shorthand in the book (abuse of language). Since word length is limited in evidence, I used italics and quotes and the qualification "sometimes been called" as my own shorthand for that. In the book there are detailed discussions of the two authors I mentioned, and their methods of research are questioned. That is really a minor point.

In the submissions to the evidence section so far, it is clear that every contributor has a different view of the scope of this case; the same seems to be true of arbitrators. Subliminal communication: I, Mathsci, prophesy that a guru will arrive to bring order to this chaos.

To me it seems clear that this case was not intended to be a postmortem on conduct during the RfC on Cirt. I intially drafted a lengthy comment for this page, because I felt unease at the way in which ResidentAnthropologist chose to single out Will Beback. It then appeared to be more appropriate to insert it as evidence. I looked at the article on Twelve Tribes communities and related BLPs and made an analysis. I sympathise with ResidentAnthropologist, who for the most part edits in good faith, but do think there are problems with his editing which I think are the result of some confusion: that was already apparent in the nebulous RfAr he filed and, in hindsight, can also be seen in the deleted essay.

My understanding from the comments of the drafter, Newyorkbrad, is that this case is concerned with clarifying certain issues, which might not be too precisely defined. It is not about sanctioning individual editors. I presented my evidence because it could possibly touch on issues of that kind. The only findings or remedies I might suggest, if any, would concern the overly aggressive and confrontational conduct in this case (and the parallel case). I do not edit in the particular area that I described and I cannot imagine that I would ever do so. (The same applied in the Noleander case, where levels of rhetoric were also high.) Mathsci ( talk) 16:13, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

my responses to Griswaldo collapsed for readability Mathsci ( talk) 20:20, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Short reply to Griswaldo: no. Longer reply: I do not wish to enter into any kind of threaded discussion about my evidence, which I clarified to some extent here, referring to the book for more detail (e.g. page 5 in the introduction, where the use of the historical terms "cult apologist" and "cult basher" is clarified). Of course there are ambiguities in all of this, as mentioned in the book, but that would seem to be off-topic here. Thanks, Mathsci ( talk) 18:03, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I added a clarification in my evidence, but within minutes of discussing matters with me, Griswaldo escalated matters with excessive rhetoric and added a section about me on the evidence page. That confrontational ploy, within an attempted threaded discussion, would appear to be exactly what Newyorkbrad has explicitly discouraged. My editing on wikipedia is not remotely in this area; the BLPs I have written are impeccably sourced, usually on academics. I will discuss Griswaldo's "evidence" with the arbitration clerk and the drafting arbitrator, since I am not a party to this case. Mathsci ( talk) 18:48, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Griswaldo: I gave two answers, a short one and then a longer one; and then I added a short parenthetic clarification on the evidence page. Your very rapid response, where you made "scare" claims on the evidence page appears to be needless escalation. I have sent emails about that to NuclearWarfare and Newyorkbrad, since it seems contrary to how ArbCom cases are conducted and I don't edit vaguely in this area. Thanks, Mathsci ( talk) 19:09, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I have subsequently attempted once again to remove any possible ambiguities from my evidence. I am not sure how helpful or relevant your evidence is at the moment, since it is a personal commentary on a historic version of my evidence. As for emailing clerks, that is standard practice and I believe one of the recommended ways of contacting them. I sent a copy to Newyorkbrad as a courtesy, since he will be looking at these pages in the near future. Thanks, Mathsci ( talk) 19:33, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Griswaldo, you are entitled to your opinions. But please stop BULLYING me about my evidence. [45] Thanks, Mathsci ( talk) 19:58, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment The BLP James R. Lewis (scholar) that I mentioned in my evidence has been edited in the last 24 hours by Jayen466, adding over 50% more content. [46] It seems more balanced now, but does it really need comments during an ArbCom case to bring that about? Perhaps something similar will happen to J. Gordon Melton, the other BLP that I mentioned :) Mathsci ( talk) 09:37, 25 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I had proposed adding that material 3 weeks ago, just as I was about to go on a wikibreak. [47]. -- J N 466 12:53, 25 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Evidence presented by Mathsci (2)

Alleged problematic behavior as been alleged on my part I assert that two points. The Yellow Deli is one the many businesses they operate to support themselves. I was it was 2009, I was younger, Idealistic on the issues and relatively new to Wikipedia community not fully understanding policy. One was an account by an Ex-member who had sent a letter into a local online paper. It was not fact checked or anything before being published and was poor source for serious allegations alleged by it. [48] [49] [50]. Sydney Morning Herald material was totally off topic for the article all together. Elbert Eugene Spriggs ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) was BLP nightmare with Members and ex-members inserting all sorts of things. Spriggs is barely notable I have only found one short biography on him written by James R. Lewis which was less than 400 words long. Spriggs fails to independently notable from his movement thus it got merged into the TTC article. I am rather happy with what I did it was substantially different from the mess that it began as. It was part verbatim copy paste from their website and part allegations. I think It is substantially better than it was before I started. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•( contribs) 17:24, 25 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Suggested by me and redirected by a 3rd party shortly after. Spriggs is specifically described in one book in any detail. Outside of that I have never seen biographical documentation that would qualify as Reliable sourcing. Unlike alot of "cult leaders," he has been fairly low key person throughout the movement's history. No source talks about him as person other than " the guy who founded them." The few words that there are about them are all documented in the main article. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•( contribs) 20:50, 25 August 2011 (UTC) reply

@MathSci, I resent the accsuation I am attempting to suppress information and that "'no information from those articles was transferred into the main article." This the Elbert Eugene Spriggs Article as I found it and here is the Yellow Deli before the merge discussion. The Spriggs article was a single Sentence! What the hell information did I not merge?!? The Yellow Deli article was essentialy a thinly veiled Advertisement. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•( contribs) 12:10 pm, Today (UTC−4)

@MathSci, Thats a remnant from the original article. I frankly did not go digging through every language I could. Are you seriously faulting me for not digging through Languages I do not speak? As for Twelve Tribes teachings I agree that they are rather bizarre writings at face value. One the alleged documents has obviously been altered to include "Elbert the weasel" prominently at the top/ At the Reading Festival the Board Members of the Festival erroneously linked them to the Christian Identity movement. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•( contribs) 17:47, 27 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

It is true that the maintenance of BLPs can be tricky. In the very different context of pseudoscientific theories, it is often preferable to have a short stub on the "theory" and no BLP, especially when there are no sources beyond the author's own website. I think that Spriggs is described in many books and articles (see above, for one extract) and I would say that he is notable. The merge in that case was done without an AfD discussion, which might be a better way to seek a wider view. Mathsci ( talk) 17:54, 25 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Other leaders of smallish NRMs do have brief stubs as their BLPs, sometimes not more than two or three sentences. There are detailed timelines for Spriggs, some of them self-reported on Twelve Tribes websites and some on other websites, which could not be used. [51] Biographical details are given in this journal article [52] by Susan Palmer. As Weaponbb7, RA added "East Ridge", a suburb of Chattanooga, as Sprigg's birthplace on the disambiguation page Spriggs. [53] That is unsourced at present. Mathsci ( talk) 21:09, 25 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Suppression of information by ResidentApologist in Twelve Tribes communities has happened. When Yellow Deli and Elbert Eugene Spriggs were apparently "merged" into TTc, no information from those articles was transferred into the main article. Those articles were simply replaced by redirects. Plenty of sourced information was lost. Here for example is an excerpt from an article on TTc/Eugene Spriggs by Susan Palmer: "The Vine Christian Community Church was founded in 1973 in Chattanooga, Tennessee as a bi-weekly Bible study group and Christian outreach that focused on youth “who didn’t go to church.” A young married couple, Elbert Eugene Spriggs and his wife, Marsha Ann Duvall, opened their house to young people and taught them an ethic of unselfishness, brotherly love and, in accordance with the New Testament book of Acts (2:37–47), sharing all things in common. The son of a factory quiller and scoutmaster, Spriggs was born in 1937 in Chattanooga and was raised as a Methodist. He graduated from the University of Chattanooga with a degree in psychology, and in 1971 he became involved in the Jesus Movement through the Maranatha Chapel and Center Theatre in Glendale, California. He worked as a teacher, a guidance counselor, a tour director, a plant manager for Dixie Yarns and,briefly, as a carnival worker on a midway. By 1971 he had been married and divorced three times. In a 1974 interview, he described his conversion to a deeper level of spiritual life: “I thought, ‘is this why God created me?’ I knelt down and asked God to direct my life. I knew aboutChrist, but I didn’t know him... And sure enough, God took my life. Christ made me a new creature.” Spriggs met his future wife, Marsha, at a commune of skiers in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. Returning to Chattanooga in May, 1973 the Spriggs moved into 861 Vine Street in downtown Chattanooga and by 1974 were sharing their home with between fifty and sixty young people." Many of these biographical details, which can also be found in other sources, have not been transferred to wikipedia. Mathsci ( talk) 08:01, 27 August 2011 (UTC) reply

There are other problems with Twelve Tribes communities. The homeschooling scandal in Germany is sourced to the German site of Twelve Tribes; however, third party sourcing is available in Der Spiegel, Der Stern and Bavarian newspapers (under Zwölf Stämme). The seven members were briefly imprisoned for refusing to pay fines; after subsequent negotiations with local authorities, they were allowed to set up a private school in 2006. There is no mention of events in England concerning two rock festivals. Following a complaint at the Glastonbury Festival about the distribution of literature, alleged to be antisemitic, the British Twelve tribes group in Devon was banned from attending the Reading Festival. [54] [55] As far as primary sources go, internal documents of the Twelve Tribes communities can be found here. [56] The sources contain the "teachings" of Elbert Eugene Spriggs (Yoneq). Although fascinating and sometimes chilling reading, they are completely unusable on wikipedia, since they have not been discussed in a WP:RS by any academic (anthropologist, sociologist, religious scholar, psychologist, etc). Mathsci ( talk) 16:12, 27 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Following my criticisms, Jayen466 has again attempted to patch up the article. [57] However, he chooses as his sources the account by Jean Swantko-Wiseman, principal lawyer and elder of the Twelve Tribes communities, whereas WP:RS are available. Jayen466 seems to have an agenda to criticize certain other editors for shoddy editing on BLP-related articles, while the quality/sourcing of his own edits at the moment appear to be considerably worse that what he is complaining about, if his complaints have any foundation at all. My feeling is that too small a group of users is overseeing these articles, their sourcing is not always careful or meticulous enough (in this case the use of primary sources written by members of a NRM) and, as a group, they appear to be slightly hostile to scrutiny (hence for example what appears to be a WP:BATTLEGROUND approach to editors like Will Beback). Going back to the article Twelve Tribes communities, I located another good secondary source, so far unused, written by James A. Beverley, Professor of Christian Thought and Ethics at Tyndale University College and Seminary, in Nelson's Illustrated Guide to Religions. [58] There several theological criticisms are given which, if added with attribution, would again give balance to the article. Here are examples from the close of the article, "Evangelical Christian scholars argue that the Twelve Tribes is sectarian in its ideology. The movement is prone to legalism and works-righteousness. Leaders put too much emphasis on issues such as dress codes and hair styles. They would do well to foster more independence among members and abandon their simplistic dualism that creates unnecessary conflicts with ex-members, courts, and the world outside their group. Insiders have been taught that blacks are a slave class and that Martin Luther's murder was a good thing. // Yoneq [Eugene Spriggs] fosters dependence on his rule through false comparison with New Testament apostles, developing an antirational mind-set in the group, and equating his word with the direction of the Lord. His teachings are rarely self-critical, and he is obsessed with the Twelve Tribes as the only work of God on the earth." Beverley is one of the few scholars who has used the internal documents on the website mentioned above, which he reveals is run by Jacob Eberhardt. (Eberhardt was a member of the Twelve Tribes communities who took exception, as a sort of whistleblower, to the reaction of the upper hierarchy to reports of child abuse in certain US communities around 2004.)

Disclosure: I have now made two small edits myself in this area connected with the extraordinary story of Andrew Aiken. [59] [60] This was prompted by the primary sources of Eberhardt, which include a quite moving photograph taken in Channings Wood (HM Prison) during an open-day visit by Aiken's Canadian mother and two friends from the nearby Twelves Tribes community in Stentwood Farm, Devon. By chance a new secondary source was available concerning Aiken: a Sydney newspaper ran an article on Aiken's street artwork and life a few days ago, including a telephone interview with him. Mathsci ( talk) 10:12, 28 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Mathsci, I don't understand your complaint. I agree with you that sourcing to the Twelve Tribes website (which seems to have been in the article for more than two years) was inappropriate. I replaced that sourcing with German press accounts in Die Welt and Der Spiegel and Swantko's chapter in a book edited by James T. Richardson and published by Kluwer Academic Publishers, which is part of Springer Science+Business Media. Are you seriously suggesting that these are unreliable sources? -- J N 466 15:38, 28 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Evidence presented by Maunus

Maunus surmises in his evidence that I have "bought into" the anti-cult movement, which seems not to be correct. I suspect this is the result of a misunderstanding which is partially my fault, since the preliminary version of my comments appeared to apply in far greater generality than I intended. Certainly I was making no commentary on sociologists or Jehova's Witnesses (a religious group which Maunus has studied as an anthropologist). I apologize for the overly general header, which was misleading and which I have tried to correct. Neither of the two people I mention in my second paragraph are sociologists. Both are religious scholars associated with organisations (AWARE and CESNUR) connected with New Religious Movements. After reading my comments there and here, Jayen466 has made significant changes to one BLP; Griswaldo has requested editors to look at the other BLP and has proposed a new general article on controversies concerning NRMs, with the book Misunderstanding Cults as a major source, to create more balance. [61] That seems like a very positive initial outcome of this ArbCom case and could possibly lead to other BLPs being rejigged.

My first impressions were based on a source written by Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi, professor of psychology, who has surveyed trends in academic research on NRMs. I have tried to clarify that my evidence addresses only a small portion of wikipedia articles related to NRMs connected with Twelve Tribes communities. Incidentally the corresponding French article fr:Tabitha's Place, a commune in a chateau, has a quite different flavour. That article records that two Twelve Tribes parents were imprisoned in 2001 for 12 years for maltreatment of their child, who died in 1997 at the age of 19 months from an untreated heart condition and malnutrition. [62] No hint of this appears in the English article. Mathsci ( talk) 14:11, 25 August 2011 (UTC) reply

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I fully agree with Maunus. It also matches the feedback I have received from new religions scholars -- Wikipedia articles on new religious movements are often dominated by critics and adherents, each of whom wants to use critics' or the movement's primary sources, with neither type of editor much interested in reflecting scholarship, unless it happens to support a particular point they wish to make. This leads to a battlefield climate which is a major barrier to participation by neutral editors, and indeed recognized scholars or students working in the field who might otherwise be attracted to Wikipedia. Cf. Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Sathya_Sai_Baba_2#NPOV_and_sources, Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Sathya_Sai_Baba#Reliable_sources. WP:NRMMOS (the new religious movements manual of style) addresses these issues. Once that document has matured, I would like to get it to guideline status. Help and input welcome. -- J N 466 12:14, 26 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Which religion scholars have told you this? Will Beback talk 12:27, 26 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Why do you ask Will? Is it because some scholars aren't to be trusted? The NRM area isn't the only one on Wikipedia that suffers from this problem (driving away expert contributors), but apparently it is particularly bad here. Will perhaps you know of scholars who are willing to edit this area of the Wikipedia? Seems an awful lot like cult critics and adherents shouting at each other to me. Take the RfC that spawned this case, and your own involvement in it Will. Cirt, a cult critic, was criticized for overzealous negative editing of BLPs based on his view of Scientology. Your way of defending him was to show up on the talk page and start accusing people of being biased because they were adherents of this or that new religion. Prioryman, also a known cult critic (known for this in the real world mind you), shows up in disguise to muddy the waters of the RfC by repeating one meme over and over again ... that his friend was the subject of a witch-hunt. When this conflict is spilling over to dispute resolution like this it's pretty obviously a problem. Cheers. Griswaldo ( talk) 12:43, 26 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Griswaldo, it's common to ask for sources on Wikipedia when someone asserts something, especially a claim that experts have said something. Will Beback talk 23:37, 28 August 2011 (UTC) reply

George Chryssides put it most eloquently. Irving Hexham, User:Fossa (see statement) and Gerald Willms (with whom I have worked on Scientology in the German Wikipedia) have made similar comments. -- J N 466 13:01, 26 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Jayen466, it looks rather like you were trying to poison the well at that Yahoo group. [63] Excuse me if I take the responses with a grain of salt after you've made an opening posting like that. Will Beback talk 01:32, 29 August 2011 (UTC) reply

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My understanding of what Maunus is saying, is that too often the articles in 'cult' like religions are built from uncritical hearsay evidence. That the bulk of the articles is built either from hearsay and opinions from the adherents, or hearsay and opinions from the critics. Whilst both should be taken count of in building an article, an article that is dominated by such sources will hardly ever be balanced, and the process inevitably leads to conflict and edit warring as each side attempts to add more of their approved content. John lilburne ( talk) 11:57, 26 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Taking my example again, Susan J. Palmer, the main scholar to report on the Twelve Tribes communities, has chosen an approach which is similar to that of anthropologists like Tanya Luhrmann, i.e. of engaging directly with the communities (in Luhrmann's case she became a white witch for a period). Palmer has preferred a first-hand approach, rather that examining any underlying writings; she has also acted as an expert witness on their behalf. Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi writes exactly about the limitations of such approaches. Palmer has not so far published any detailed discussion of the recent events connected with la secte de Sus (Tabitha's Place) in France which are still ongoing as I write. There is a brief reference to the initial events from 1997 in Stephen Hunt's book and there will be a whole chapter devoted to the topic in her forthcoming OUP book The New Heretics of France: Minority Religions, la Republique, and the Government-Sponsored "War on Sects" [64]. In this subject area there are commentators (S.J.P.), with a chosen interventionist method of investigation, and then there are commentators on those commentators (B. B.-H.). Mixed with the fact that there is prior to that newspaper coverage, both local and national, this makes writing wikipedia articles exceedingly tricky (there are obvious BLP issues here). It is not clear whether WP:NPOV is best served by the "he said"/"she said" method currently used. Palmer's forthcoming book is obviously a good WP:RS. I am not sure that is true of the section on Tabitha's place in "Regulating Religion: Case Studies from Around the Globe (Critical Issues in Social Justice)" (ed. James T. Richardson), because it written by Jean Swantko, who is a Twelve Tribes member. Another possible source is 2007 French thesis, [65] which covers medical aspects of events Tabitha's place (I'm slightly dubious). Websites, both pro and anti, are not reliable and potentially biased. Newspaper accounts, apart from reported facts, can contain very little more than hearsay and opinion. Taking care with sources is the first step and, as this discussion shows, it is already a difficult task. Mathsci ( talk) 13:32, 26 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Evidence presented by Jehochman

Recently there have been a number of extended discussions about LGBT issues on BLPN, involving named parties in this case. Jehochman has chosen to pinpoint just one of them concerning the recently appointed CEO of a company producing a fairly popular non-free unix-based operating system (previous discussions involved a 1992 Playboy centerfold model and two male showbiz celebrities). Jehochman's evidence contains neither a historical link to a thread on WP:BLPN nor any carefully commented diffs. Mathsci ( talk) 16:09, 28 August 2011 (UTC) reply

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The company is Apple. There is a link to a current discussion. Violations or attempted violations of policy by a party during the case are exceedingly relevant. Jehochman ^Talk 18:03, 28 August 2011 (UTC) reply

It is not a violation to suggest that some type of editing might be appropriate, tor to suggest changes to policies. There's nothing in those discussions that, in and of themselves, violate any policy. No BLP violations, no personal threats, nothing of that type. If proposing alternate interpretations of policies becomes a policy violation then the policies have become fixed.

I'd further note that my suggestion was to add that the BLP subject had been named the most "powerful" gay person of the year by a mainstream LGBT-oriented magazine in what became a widely reported story. That is not gossip. Will Beback talk 23:27, 28 August 2011 (UTC) reply

It's also curious that no one has suggested doing anything about the editors who actually added the material to the article. [66] [67] [68] [69] [70] [71] [72] I don't even see warnings on their talk pages. If this is such a horrendous violation that even talking about it is grounds for a ban, how come everyone in the BLPN discussion isn't guilty as well? I'd also note that I am not alone in that discussion in saying that the material, as proposed, would not be a BLP violation. Will Beback talk 00:44, 29 August 2011 (UTC) reply

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