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Prajwal21 is continuously striking a deadlock regarding the signature of Priyanka Chopra. He says that I have wrongly copied the signature provided by him, only changed the format and uploaded it. I can't understand that why his says that the image is ineligible for copyright... when I can't even upload a better image. He is jealous of me and thinks that I am stealing the credit when I have provided him due credit. He has already listed the image for deletion and, outrageously, even for speedy deletion!. You can also read a detailed arguement about the topic at here. He has reverted my edits 4 times as you can see over here in diff 1, diff 2, diff 3, and diff 4. I have repeatedly told him to assume good faith, remain civil, and understand the Commons transition to SVG images. I havn't seen one signature on Wikipedia which is not in SVG format. In the end of the fourth reversion, you can see that Prajwal21 has labelled me as bogus and non-sense. I've tried to resolve this edit war on the article talk page as you can see over here in this diff of attempt to resolve dispute on article talk page and in this diff of attempt to resolve dispute on user talk page. I would like this issue immidiately resolved as he is acting as if he OWNS THE ARTICLE GaneshBhakt ( talk) 14:25, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
User keeps removing true and pertinent data to this particular page. Citations from FCC information, station ownership and licensing that may put the station in a less than flattering image are being censored. 71.161.44.88 ( talk) 05:49, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
I was editing the page List of World Series champions. There was a table here that listed franchises by appearance which I tried to edit. I added my explanation for doing so but the edits were promptly removed by another user, with no explanation given. I re-added the edits, this time with a more detailed description. This time my edits were removed by the admin Killervogel5. He simply stated that the table was to be arranged in a different manner than what I had been trying to do. He did not link to any policy or previous discussion that showed a consensus had already been reached on this issue; he seemingly just was making an argument from authority. (Namely, that he knew how it should be done and I didn't.) He then wrote on my page and warned me of edit-warring, which I believe was unfounded claim. I then wrote on the discussion page why I thought my edit made sense. I also alerted him and we began to discuss the issue. He told me initially that I was being uncivil, and he was probably correct since I was angry at the time. However, I calmed down and attempted to reach a conclusion on the issue and he continued to act in an abrasive manner. We both admitted to having felt "badgered", at which point he told me "Then go about your merry way." I pointed out that we hadn't reached a conclusion and he responded, "I don't need to "give you" anything. I disagree with your edits but I don't feel like arguing about it. So move on."This is how the conversation continued until I eventually gave up seeking an answer. The issue for the article itself remains unsettled, but what concerns me is the manner in which I was treated by an admin. I am not claiming to be perfect, for I certainly was not. But while an admin may correct me, no one will say anything to him if I don't bring it up. The entirety of the discussion can be found on his talk page, although I believe that he has deleted it. Talk This is where the discussion can be found. Thank you. Ultimahero ( talk) 00:46, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
As far it being a lame edit war, that was my point. I don't believe I ever did start an edit-war on the page. So to be accused of it after 2 edits (which even stated above was not violating any policy) seems absurd to me. I believe my questions for User:Killervogel5) were not out of line; he had involved himself and I was simply asking him for a resolution to our dispute. I didn't want to walk away not knowing if he would revert my edits the next day; and I don't believe that I was out of line to feel that way. I readily accept that initially I was indeed uncivil, and will accept any correction that is due to me. I simply believe that User:Killervogel5) acted out of haste (accusing me of something, then refusing to give a simple answer.) I don't feel he should get in trouble or anything; I just feel that as an admin his behavior was a bit questionable. I would simply like another admin (whom I believe would have more credibility) to ask him to consider his tone in the future. Ultimahero ( talk) 19:06, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
With all due respect you ARE accountable to a higher standard. Or, at the very least, more is to be expected out of you than the average editor. You have the ability to block people, and thus when you warn people it carries weight. For you to accuse me of an edit-war, despite the fact that I only made 2 reverts in a day (thus not violating any policy) and gave good reasons for them, all the while not warning the person who changed my edits without explanation, is inappropriate. If you had been anyone other than an admin I would have ignored such a silly accusation because it's obviously false. But, since you are an admin I had to pay attention because I don't wish to be blocked. As for the discussion we had it was only unproductive because you refused to contribute. You boldly involved yourself and then simply walked away when I asked you for an answer. I simply asking other admins, who carry more weight than myself, to explain that such actions BY AN ADMIN are not okay. Ultimahero ( talk) 03:45, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
On Wikipedia:Administrators there is a list of expectations for admins, which proves that indeed admins are held to a higher standard. Most notably for our purposes is this line: "Administrators are expected to lead by example and to behave in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others". Ultimahero ( talk) 03:58, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
Sir, that's what I did. There was no edit-war. That was my point. I made one edit and explained why I made it. It was reverted without any reason given. I made the edit again with a fuller explanation and it was again deleted. So then I edited the talk page and this problematic discussion ensued. I appreciate your desire to help but please familiarize yourself with the issue before offering a critique. Ultimahero ( talk) 04:06, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps I've been unclear. I'm not frustrated over the table arrangement. I am frustrated that an admin would accuse me of edit-warring after a mere two edits. I am frustrated that I alone am chastised, even though by definition it would take multiple people to revert a page back and forth. I am frustrated that when I went to discuss it with Killervogel5, he refused to listen. Walking away from the issue would be fine, but telling me things such as "go your merry way", "move on", as well as the general combative tone he employed are beyond simply walking away. These are certainly not the types of things that one would define as "civility", right? You state that he didn't do anything "all that wrong". So then it was wrong, just not REALLY wrong. Forgive me but that makes no sense to me. If it was wrong, in any sense, then it deserves some level of correction, does it not? I said from the beginning that I didn't think that he should be banned or anything; I would simply like a fellow admin to take two minutes to remind him how administrators should lead by example. Ultimahero ( talk) 15:58, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
Attacked me in pretty rude language here. Besides, the allegation that I removed his contents cannot be true, since he only registered today (on Apr 18, 2011 17:40:24), after I did the cleanup. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 22:39, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
This IP editor made 4 reverted edits with information that wouldn't meet WP:MEDRS. They seem to be on some sort of crusade to push mercury in vaccines causing autism which has been thoroughly, and when I mean thoroughly, I mean without a doubt, debunked. One of the researchers in one of the studies has committed a fraud of stealing money. One of maybe 10 studies, so deleting the one with monetary fraud (and no indication of scientific or medical fraud, but it's not good), we still have numerous studies that have shown no link. Nevertheless, and even if we should consider mentioning this issue, the IP editor is making a number of posts in Talk:Causes of autism. He's been asked by several editors to chill out. And of course, he/she/it is at 4RR on the article. They're not getting it. Block 'em. Ban 'em. Take his computer away. Do something. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 04:08, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
This user has made repeated personal attacks on me in several articles. In the case at hand, I shortened an extensive quote which had nothing to do with the journal, and was greeted with this sort of comment: user Collect (talk · contribs), who often follows my edits and who had no prior involvement with this article, and with whom I'm currently in contention over an unrelated matter at AN/I, deleted the quote, saying it was a violation of NPOV. Partly because Collect claimed at AN/I that this journal is a reliable source and Collect is perfectly welcome to try find sources that claim this web site represents a sterling and unbiased example of the highest standards in medical research publishing, and . I will not be debating the question with Collect, however, as I've learned from previous experience that doing so is invariably unproductive. (all in [1]. I would hasten to point out that I became aware of the article at AfD, and not by following anyone around at all. And that Ohiostandard also !voted !keep for the article. [2].
Further examples: [3] *Comment. Collect apparently doesn't understand the word "retain", and I've reverted his deletion of the passage. Shooterwalker, Fred, do either of you have any changes you'd like to propose to the language, at all? – OhioStandard ( talk) 02:54, 18 March 2011 (UTC) To make this one clear see [4] Herostratus (talk | contribs) (52,998 bytes) (remove contentious unproven material per WP:BRD, WP:CONSENSUS, see talk ("re collectables")) (undo) precisely confirming the correctnes of my position.
[5] where he indicates that he is actually following me Sorry, Collect; I understand the concerns that motivated
your edit, and I have some sympathy for those concerns, but you've introduced too marked a deviation from long-established policy, and I've reverted your change. You'll note that at the top of this talk page there's a notice that says, in part, "Before editing this page, please make sure that your revision reflects consensus." We're at the "D" stage in WP:BRD at this point; if you find a great majority of editors strongly support your desired change that's one thing, but right now it's just you. You'll need pretty broadly-based support before your changes can become policy. –
OhioStandard (
talk)
17:08, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
And at AN/I: [6] et seq. Again he managed to follow my edits <g> but accuses an admin I'm sorry to have to bring this here, but it seems pretty clear that Rklawton won't tolerate any critical information being fairly represented in this article if he can possibly help it, and that he's perfectly willing to try to bully other editors to prevent that from happening. I know he's an admin, but he's still obliged to conform to our policies disallowing personal attacks, battleground behavior, and article ownership, and I'd appreciate it if the community would take whatever steps are necessary to try to make him understand that ... [7] Gamaliel, I've never interacted with Rklawton before that I can recall, although Collect has been pretty unhappy with me since I took part in a discussion last year that ended in his being blocked etc. (OS has been after me a number of times, and the "block" was soundly berated by other admins bythe way), etc. Then the hubris of [8]. Yet another attack: I think it'll probably be more productive if I refrain from responding to any further accusations from Collect, if I can reasonably do so. I'd appreciate it, though, if an administrator would take a look at a recent development
Ohiostandard is apparently unable to post anywhere on Wikipedia without attempting to demonize me personally. [9] represents yet one more article where his first edits were well after my edits. Heck [10] he even admonishes me for posting a new subject flush left! Especially, please don't post at flush-left, since doing so prevents others from using normal threading protocol to reply to posts.) [11] Is it really so onerous a burden to refrain from posting at flush-left, Collect? What would be the harm in extending the very simple courtesy of allowing others to respond to the original post without being prevented from doing so by your post? I've again indented the above to preserve other editors' ability to reply to the original post. I'll not insist on the point, but is it really too much to ask that you allow them the right to do so?
In short: Ohiostandard appears quite totally obsessed with me, and I am just getting tired of it. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 18:49, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
and also:
[12] Likewise, the Eridu-Dreaming account exhibits the same tendencies toward formatting and placement of posts that Collect also employs with the effect of setting off talk page contribtions more prominently in a thread than is usual. As I said, I sincerely doubt Collect would ever try anything like this. OTOH, I also think it's better to initiate an SPI when one has any doubt than to just wonder, since socking is such a huge problem on Wikipedia. I imagine Collect will take this personally, given our negative history, but for my part, I'd want anyone who had any suspicion I might be socking to initiate an SPI. Anyway, he asked me to stay off his talk page after I took part in a discussion that led to his being blocked last October, so if it's required to inform him of this, would someone please do so on my behalf? Thank you which is an overt accusation that I am a sock puppeteer. I expect Collect will respond with his usual misstatements of my actions, but I'm not going to try to correct those that I'm sure will be coming, and will trust instead to the diligence of other users to just examine any claims he makes, if they care about any such claims. More generally, because he's been so extremely reactive to me since I took part in a discussion that resulted in him being blocked last October, I'm not going to respond to Collect any further here, to try to keep the drama level as low as it can be in this. But I'll of course be glad to respond to any questions or comments any uninvolved user or SPI admin might like to direct my way. If anyone has any, any comments or questions about any of this, please post them after the e-mail that follows so this post and that disclosure remain together on the page. Thanks same accusation. I acutally considered repeated accusations of that nature without even a wisp of evidence other than hatred to be a violation of Wikiquette as well. His mileage appears to differ.
Collect (
talk)
19:00, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
I don't know why this dispute started, but judging from what I've seen on Talk:Prescott Bush and Wikipedia:ANI#User_Rklawton_.22A_dirty.2C_rotten.2C_low-life.2C_disruptive_trick.22, no one has acquitted themselves well here and there's great examples of boorishness all around. Gamaliel ( talk) 04:00, 11 April 2011 (UTC) (AN/I thread in archives)
Okay, I'd wanted to give time for third-party opinions to be expressed here before I replied, myself, but I guess I'll go ahead add my own reply now. First I'd like to say that I'd be glad to address each of the many points raised here if I could reasonably suppose that this had been filed in good faith, rather than as a retaliation for my having initiated a now-archived thread at AN/I that was politely critical of Rklawton and Collect. As will appear from the following, though, I can't reasonably do so, and thus won't be taking the very significant amount of time that would be necessary to reply to each of the many points Collect raises above. I do hope, however, that anyone who's inclined to accept any of the accusations made above will take the time to examine the diffs he presents carefully, and especially to look at the original context in which I made the comments he cites above, rather than merely relying on his own characterizations and commentary. For anyone who does so, I believe a very different picture will emerge than the one he presents here.
This began when I had the impudence to perform a single revert of one of Rklawton's edits to the Prescott Bush article, and to propose some impeccably sourced (NYT, CNN, AP, FOX, etc.) content on the article's talk page (permalink) that he didn't like. For exactly that, and for very politely citing the policies that support that content for literally days on its then-current talk page, I was told by Rklawton that I'd be reverted on sight, that my behavior was "dirty", "rotten", and "low-life", and called "sneaking", "disruptive", "a wikilawyer", a "clueless noob", and "an ass". I never responded in kind; not once. His "clueless noob" comment was made here, actually, just above, which is really pretty ironic if you think about the venue we're in.
Collect's part in all this was to support Rklawton to the maximum extent possible, first at the Prescott Bush talk page, then in the AN/I thread I began (concise summary), and finally, in my view, by filing this frivolous report. The article in question is evidently dear to not only Rklawton, but also to Collect, who has been fighting for almost five years to keep any negative content out of that article. Since my single reversion restored the last mention in the article of content they apparently loathe, my single reversion touched a nerve with them both, and they both responded as if they'd been personally attacked, which was absolutely not the case. Collect and I have had conflict previously; as he notes in the text he cited above. It's my impression that that conflict has been largely motivated by my having commented extensively in a matter last October that led to his being blocked. He felt and feels that the block was hugely unfair, and I doubt he's ever likely to let go of his evident anger at me over that.
Alright, that's the sordid background for all this. Since I don't consider this WQA report to have been filed in good faith, I'm not going to devote much more of my time to responding to it. I don't mind responding to the first point Collect raises here, though, which I think is actually a pretty fair example of the rest.
In the first point of Collect's complaint, he objects to my comments on the talk page for our article on an astroturf/stealth web site that presents itself, falsely, as a typical, NPOV medical journal. That he would try to use that particular interchange to try justify his actions and discredit mine demonstrates a degree of cynicism that's astounding to me. It really amazes me that he could try to use something in which he's so indisputably and egregiously in the wrong to try to accuse me of incivility, misconduct, and (at AN/I) of copyright violation. It's a regrettably harsh thing to have to say, but his strategy seems to be to fling whatever mud he thinks might have a chance to stick.
As Collect wrote right at the outset of this report, "In the case at hand, I shortened an extensive quote which had nothing to do with the journal," and goes on to object to my response on the corresponding talk page.
I can only guess that Collect is hoping users won't bother to click a link to examine his accusations. I'm hoping you will. If you don't examine any other claim he's made, please examine this one.
If you don't want to click the link to investigate his claim on this first point, I'll provide it in brief, here. After he followed me to the page and deleted the passage I'd added there, Collect then performed his "shortening" of the restored quote which, he says, "had nothing to do with the journal". The words that are shown below as strikthrough text represent his deletions:
Also referring to this journal, authors in the Canadian Medical Association Journal wrote,
Efforts to undermine the science specific to HIV prevention for injection drug users are becoming increasingly sophisticated. One new and worrisome trend is the creation of internet sites posing as open-access, peer-reviewed scientific journals. One such example, funded by the Drug Free America Foundation,[this journal] contains a review of the research supporting needle exchange program and declares that the "effectiveness of NEPs [needle exchange program] to reduce HIV among IDUs [injection drug users] is overrated;"it further claims that the WHO position on needle exchange programs "is not based on solid evidence."
Collect's edit summary for this was merely, "wp:undue". Please note that this change radically distorts the meaning of the passage from its authors' intention. Nor was the intact passage "verging on copyvio", either, as he claimed at AN/I. Again, please look at this in its context, if you have the least doubt about the propriety of my actions, and to determine for yourself whether Collect's accusation holds up, and also to see what a third-party had to say about his actions there.
It's my opinion that anyone who's capable of making so egregiously cynical an accusation, where the example he uses to do so actually documents a misrepresentation on his part that any RL encyclopedia writer would be fired for on the spot, is not to be trusted with respect to the balance of the complaints he makes here, either.
I'll close by saying two things: One is that this was the first time that anyone has ever taken any complaint against me to any of the dispute resolution boards. I sometimes miss the mark, of course, but I usually try hard to keep things collegial, and to try to understand anyone's objections or complaints, even if I don't necessarily agree with them. Second, I've had more than enough strife with Rklawton and (especially) Collect at the now-archived AN/I thread, already, and I'm not going to provide any further defense, here. I have no more time that I'm willing to spend in that way: This has cost me far too much time and trouble already. – OhioStandard ( talk) 21:06, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
LedRush stated that I was "unnecessarily combative," and told me to "settle down and try and be constructive," on an article where he had pledged to "try [his] best to avoid comment on the behavior of other editors." My attempt to get him to stop was reverted by him with the comment "being combative is not civil." I would appreciate assistance. Thanks. Hipocrite ( talk) 23:54, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
Personally, I find this whole thing a non-issue, other than the fact that Hipocrite has seemed to make it his policy to pursue a vendetta against me through personal attacks and harassment. I believe he tries to anger me on the talk page and then takes any chance he can to try and catch me in a "gotcha" moment of not being 100% civil. LedRush ( talk) 00:43, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
The above editor, failing to get his way in a dispute over article content, has made an escalating series of personal attacks, culminating in this one, directed at me: "Please don't display your complete ignorance of science any more than you have to. You probably don't even know what the term [calorimetry] means" ( diff). The assertion is of course laughable, but I think that Josephson needs to be reminded that WP:NPA applies, and that continual breaches are likely to result in action being taken against him. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 21:34, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
Hogwash: nonsense. See also _political speeches_. Collect ( talk) 14:05, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
I would consider bringing someone where for that "insult" to be more of a personal attack than what was said originally. In short, the complainant sounds more like a whiner than the accused sounds like he's got an etiquette problem. Suck it up or go away. Wikipedia isn't for the thin-skinned. On a tangential note, we need to confirm that User:Brian Josephson is entitled to use that name since the name also belongs to a notable person. Rklawton ( talk) 14:24, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Though multiple editors including myself, User:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz, User:Nymf, and User:Crohnie have reverted his edits at Nicole Kidman, he continued to edit war, just narrowly avoiding 3RR, and as you can see by the subhead of a post he left on my talk page ("Your continous attempts at blocking my edits for no reason other than having no life? Or your personal distaste for Kidman"), he is being uncivil and abusive toward other editors.
As you can see by his talk page, he has been blocked in the past, and is currently causing the same commotion at Cate Blanchett and possibly other articles. I implore you to intervene. Tenebrae ( talk) 20:26, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
Then leave me and my edits alone, in fact don't visit Nicole's page since all you're going to do is whine about me, like you're doing now. Again, YOU'RE COMING AT ME, so if you post on my page I'm only gonna come back and make you whine again. ENOUGH! DeadSend4 (talk) 20:36, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
I have a feeling that DeadSend4 and his socks/IPs aren't going to reason with us, considering that he has been owning/edit warring the article for well over 5 months. ANI next? Nymf hideliho! 13:03, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Agreeing pretty much with all of the above. This is an aggressive editor who appears to insist that all of his/her changes must stand absent an overwhelming consensus, if not more, that they are unacceptable. With the exception, perhaps, of the edits regarding Ghost, none of the edits appear to involve policy or guideline, but are style and emphasis choices, where no more than simple consensus is required. If DeadSend4 were making a case relating to accuracy, NPOV, OR, or some other BLP-rooted matters, some level of aggressiveness might be justified, but I see virtually nothing here beyond a refusal to deal with a contrary consensus. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz ( talk) 22:10, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
UPDATE - User has made a legal threat. Reported at WP:ANI. CycloneGU ( talk) 19:02, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
See [31]. I have explained my position and asked him to retract his accusation: [32] [33] [34]. But he refuses to retract: [35] [36] [37] Miradre ( talk) 21:45, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
I looked through the thread and Miradre's edit history going back to his very first edits. While Maunus's comment was not worded as civilly as it could have, calling someone an SPA is only uncivil (lack of AGF) if there is not clear evidence that they actually are an SPA. Miradre's edits show that he is clearly an SPA, so that is not an attack, and once you have clear evidence that someone is an SPA, the bar lowers for when it is acceptable to point out percieved POV pushing, so I don't see Maunus's comment about him pushing a pro-White nationalist viewpoint as being an actionable offense. I think everyone should just back up, take a breath, and move on with the AfD. Not saying anyone did anything terribly wrong here, but I think in this case maybe it is best to even more scrupulously than usual avoid commenting on editors and their editing patterns. Maunus, if you really think the SPA issue is important information for the AfD, maybe just use a SPA tag on one of Miradre's posts, so that people can be informed but decide for themselves if it matters in the AfD. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 23:00, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Miradne, no one really cares about your personal philosophy, so you don't need to defend it here. That's not the issue. However, you ARE an SPA (like FisherQueen said, not against the rules, but can be problematic), and that coupled with your edits gave Maunus reasonable cause to suspect POV-pushing. He may be right, he may be wrong, but given your edit history, his comments were not unsubstantiated, commented on the edits, not the editor, and so were not a personal attack or uncivil. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 15:21, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
Anarchangel's behavior at AfD has become disruptive and downright nasty. He accused Collect of lying, was forced to redact, but then wrote "You [Collect] assert untruths even when they have been disproven." And then, "you have a promise that I will continue to show your prevarication and obfuscation as I have here." Collect is content to make his points and point out Anarchangel's bias and disruption to the closing admin, while Anarchangel has made this his personal battleground based on years of disappointing interations with Collect. He wrote (and later struck) "For years, I had given up hope of actually catching you lying. It's almost sad in a way, the end of an era." Indulge a literary analogy: Collect is the whale to Anarchangel's Ahab. Lionel ( talk) 02:35, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
Kindly note that I have !voted on a huge number of XfDs. That Anarchangel "just began" to see them is a teensy bit odd. And note that he retains the claim of "prevarication" which, as nearly as I can tell, is the same as saying "liar." On a personal note, if Collect and Ferrylodge are both banned, I will come back to Wikipedia. Kelly, I can handle. does seem to be a teensy bit judgemental at the very least, and I can not say Anarchangel has mellowed. Collect ( talk) 21:44, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Revan was previously blocked for personal attacks and uncivil behavior. [39] When his block ended, we was instructed to stay away from me. [40] We had interacted almost exclusively through the article on Led Zeppelin. After his block expired, he came back to the Led Zeppelin board and continued to levy personal attacks against me (like calling me biased and a fanboy, among others). [41] I decided to try and wait him out and hope that he would demonstrate some more maturity with his posts. He has not. Most recently, he stated that another editor and I have "no credibility" [42], accuses me of bias [43] and drops an F-bomb while telling me that I am obsessively preaching and condescending [44].
I would merely like the terms of his initial blocking enforced, and have him stay away from me in general. LedRush ( talk) 14:41, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
LedRush has on numerous occasions unfairly accused me of attacking him. You've seen an example here. He has also, after my block, provoked me by bringing up the now dead issue that I was blocked. He has posted on my talk page many times after I've told him explicitly not to post on my talk page. He has erased a post I made on the Led Zeppelin discussion page. And now I log on and see that I'm reported. I've made no attack but merely stated what I observed. I can't adjust my attitude according to everyone's sensibility's fragility. You might want to consider blocking him for a few hours, since I've felt hounded by him, having him over my shoulder every time I write a word here on wikipedia, hounding me even on my talk page after I've, both before and after my block, told him not to do it. I was instructed by a biased admin to "stay away" from LedRush so I don't write on his talk page. But you can see that he feels that the Led Zeppelin article is his backyard that I should stay away from. He's being unreasonable in so many ways. Blocked, warned or not, I feel hounded by this user. Revan ( talk) 00:22, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Edit: An IP address called LedRush a "fanboy". Is he blaming me for attacking him anonymously? Revan ( talk) 00:23, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
I hadn't noticed that before, but Revan is right. It does seem that LedRush is being very liberal in the citations he uses. LedRush did not call him a fanboy, he simply said that fanboys will hypothetically engage in a particular practice. That's not calling him anything and is not a personal attack. Revan did call him biased, however, his reason was that LedRush was, "driven by making Zeppelin look as awesome as possible". That's specifically related to the article and I don't think it constitutes as a personal attack. (As opposed to something like name calling.) LeadRush quoted Revan in citation 52 as saying he had, "no credibility". However, I do not see that anywhere in the citation. In 53 Revan does NOT call LeadRush biased; he points out that others have accused him of that. Again, the cursing is the only thing that I find inappropriate.
One of LeadRush's biggest arguments is that Revan was blocked and instructed to "stay away" from Revan. However, in checking edit histories I noticed something interesting. Revan was indeed blocked on March 4th, specifically for edits made to Judas Priest and LeadRush's talk page. After March 4th, however, Revan never again edits LeadRush's talk page. LeadRush, on the other hand, has edited Revan's talk several times since that block (March 24th, 26th, 27th, 28th, and April 19th to be exact). I bring this up because LeadRush has clearly interpreted the instruction for Revan to "stay away" from him to mean that they should not even edit the same pages. (This is obvious from this very page where he says Revan was instructed to stay away, but then says that Revan returned to Led Zeppelin, implying that by continuing to edit Led Zeppelin Revan was violating the "stay away" order). However, if that's how LeadRush interprets the order, then why does he continue to edit Revan's talk page? By LeadRush's own standard Revan would not be allowed to reply on his own page, lest he violate "staying away". Should Revan stop using his own page to ensure he won't run into LeadRush? Obviously, LeadRush is using a double standard (criticizing Revan for editing the Led Zeppelin page while at the same time intentionally seeking Revan out to edit his page).
Thus, given the frivolous citations brought up by LeadRush (except for the swearing) and the ridiculous double standard being employed, it seems to me Revan is being unfairly lampooned. Ultimahero ( talk) 01:23, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
1. No, he is not. You are inferring that he is speaking about you, but he does not call you that. The obvious subject of his statement is the average reader. You shouldn't mix contexts, infer, and assume bad faith.
2. No, it is not. Saying someone is biased is not a personal attack. I can say you are biased in this discussion because it has affected you. Does that mean I am attacking you personally? No, it simply means that it will be very difficult for you to objective, or that you have not shown objectivity. It is addressing your actions toward the article, not you as a person.
3. If they were on the Zeppelin page, you could have simply told him there. No need to go to his page.
4. According to what you linked to, he was blocked for editing Judas Priest and your page, not Zeppelin. That's what the blocking admin cited. If you say he sought you out to harass you then prove it. Link to it, don't just assert it. My point was that you clearly interpret "stay away" as not to edit the pages you frequent. So why do you go to his page intentionally? Again, you could simply warn him at the Zeppelin page. But no, you make the effort to tell him on his talk page, even though by the standard you established he shouldn't even be able to respond or else he wouldn't be staying away. And he did not "go back to the very same article on which he levied many personal attacks which led to his block" because Zeppelin was no cited by the blocking admin.
5. I don't see how it's a personal attack. It's about your edit history and your ability to fairly interact with the articles. It's not about you as a person.
You have not demonstrated that his calling you biased in unsubstantiated. All you have shown is that he called you biased. Prove he's wrong. Even if he is, though, it's not a personal attack because it is not about you as a person. I don't think you understand what personal attacks are. He did not call you a fanboy; you're assuming bad faith. It's not a personal attack to say someone lacks credibility because it's not about them as a person. How did he give you advice for your real life? I don't see that anywhere in that last link. Are you talking about this: "Of course, having endless discussions about some mere sub-genres in a box is also ridiculous when taking a step back and reflecting"? Because that would seem to apply to him as well since you're both discussing it. I think you have a persecution complex. You have not shown anything that constitutes as "personal attacks". Ultimahero ( talk) 03:45, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
When an admin answers in this way: "After your block expires, I suggest you make it a point to forget LedRush even exists", after I fairly tried to defend myself against the block, I call that admin biased. Not objective. Perhaps that word isn't such an insult you believe it to be. This report didn't really do what you wanted it to. But I'll remember to revise what I write before I post in order to avoid the f-word as much as possible. Revan ( talk) 18:34, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
LedRush: First of all, he did not call you a fanboy, and you have to assume bad faith to sustain that he did. I explained that clearly in my last post and you completely ignored it. Secondly, calling someone biased or saying they don't hold credibility are not personal attacks. A bias is not saying that you are dumb or anything of the sort; it's simply saying that you're edits are not being objective. It's not personal because it addresses the content of the article. If I wrote,"Clearly, Led Zeppelin is the worst band in the history of the universe", then by the standard you are putting forward you could not call me biased because you would be attacking me personally, even though the hypothetical edit clearly would be biased. You standard is ridiculous. Claiming the bias is influencing edits is not an attack on the person. Again, saying you're biased in regards to this issue would be be very true and is not an attack on you. Also, I asked you before how he gave you personal advice, and you clearly avoided that as well. When you make claims, I challenge them, and then you ignore the challenge and simply repeat the claim, then it doesn't reflect well on you. (And I've said several times that the cursing was clearly inappropriate.)
You say that calling someone biased is uncivil. Perhaps it could be, if it was an unfair accusation. However, you missed my entire argument when you said this: "Also, you're claim that I need to prove past harassment is odd." But that's not what I said. I never said that you need to prove harassment in the past because I know he was blocked. What I actually said was this: "You have not demonstrated that his calling you biased is unsubstantiated. All you have shown is that he called you biased. Prove he's wrong." Don't prove harassment, prove his claims of bias are, as you stated, "without substantiation". So far all you've done is come here and say, "He called me biased, he needs to be punished". If you are making fair, constructive edits and he calls you biased then that would be uncivil. But you have to prove it. You can't simply throw out the claim.
I would agree that the admin was biased, or at the completely overstepped his bounds. Telling Revan not to go to you're talk page is one thing, but to say "forget he exists" would mean, among other things, ignoring you entirely, even on matters of productive conversation. It would mean that by definition he couldn't respond to you if you post on his talk page. After all, if he's to view you as not existing, then how can he answer you posts? So I do think that admin went to far. Simply telling him to not post on your page would suffice.
I'm not "fixated" on you posting on his page, I simply believe it's hypocritical on your part. You act as though you are the victim of abuse; that Revan has maliciously sought you out, even after his block, to harass you. But what I see is that after being blocked Revan never again posted on your page. You, on the other hand, have frequently and intentionally sought HIM out. I don't find that fair. If you want him to "stay away" yet you continue to frequent his page? That makes no sense. Ultimahero ( talk) 19:14, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
I have to disagree with Ultimahero, here, on at least two points. First, on reading the "fanboys" comment, it seems pretty clear to me that was aimed at LedRush, while trying to skate under the radar. I think it qualifies as uncivil. Second, on the bias issue, my read of Ultimahero's opinion on this is that LedRush is biased in the conflict between himself and Revan, because LedRush is affected by the conflict, so Revan saying he is biased is okay. If that were how Revan was calling him biased, I would agree with Ultimahero, but that is not how Revan was leveling the accusation of bias. He specifically said that LedRush was biased about "trying to make Led Zepplin as awesome as possible" - basically accusing LedRush of not having a neutral point of view on Led Zepplin at all. That is uncivil. And overall, I simply don't swallow the defense of "I'm not calling you [a fanboy, biased, without credibility], I am just pointing out that others are have called you that." To me that is trying to game the system, trying to get away with making an uncivil comment by saying you're just mentioning that others have said it. It's clear his intent was to level that accusation at him, and that is the same thing as saying it yourself. Normally, such behavior would not (imo) merit needing to officially warn someone here, but when Revan has just come off a block for similar (though higher magnitude) behavior, it's clear the block did not help him back up and cool off and reevaluate his behavior. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 20:31, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
I don't think that there is anything wrong with saying someone is biased on an issue. As I said above, if I wrote, "Led Zeppelin is the greatest band ever", that would obviously be biased. I don't think it would be wrong for someone to say, "You're clearly biased." I don't see that as uncivil. My point was that LedRush needs to prove that the "bias" claim was untrue. All he has done is prove that he was called biased, but as I said, I don't see a problem with that in and of itself. To bring this up here would put the burden of proof on LedRush to back up his claim.
And the "fanboy" comment was about the average reader of the article. It's possible that it was an under the radar attack, but you have to assume bad faith to substantiate that.
Finally, Revan is not commenting on LedRush's page. He is not seeking LedRush out, so it's unfair to say to say that Revan wasn't changed by the block. Revan was banned for attacking LedRush on his page, and he has since then not commented on LedRush a single time. Ultimahero ( talk) 22:24, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the understanding, Ultimahero. Sometimes, administrative back-up is needed in order to prove a point. The fan boy comment is closer to a fact than an "under the radar" insult; I was not in any way directing it towards LedRush. I was merely stating an example in direct relation to the article. You'd have to assume really bad faith (making you biased) in order believe that it was directed to a specific person, and on top of it, it's not really possible to prove, either. It surprises me that another admin really interprets this as an insult. But no, it was not in any way directed to LedRush. That this was one of his main points only enforces my opinion that he's hounding me. I'm not an absolutist like the biased admin who instructed me to erase some of my own memories, but I don't want him writing on my talk page unnecessarily, provoking me by reminding me of my recent block, accusing me of attacking him when I'm not, or reporting me when he shouldn't. Revan ( talk) 23:08, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying that, but that doesn't change the fact that you're being unreasonable. Both I and Ultimahero have explained why. Revan ( talk) 00:10, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
Of course, Revan. This is silly. Mmyers1976: You didn't address my example. I wrote, "I don't think that there is anything wrong with saying someone is biased on an issue. As I said above, if I wrote, "Led Zeppelin is the greatest band ever", that would obviously be biased. I don't think it would be wrong for someone to say, "You're clearly biased." I don't see that as uncivil." In that example, would it be fair to say someone is biased? If not, then how do make corrections? You could say the edits are biased, but it seems superficial to me to try and distinguish between incredibly biased edits and a biased editor. If an editor continues to make biased edits then it seems fair to conclude he is, in fact, biased. Again, the only way to solve that problem would be for LedRush to prove he is not biased (And again, he is making accusations here so the burden of proof is on him) and thus prove the Revan is attacking him unfairly. But if he cannot, or refusing to, then there is no grounds to say that Revan is not acting proper.
Assuming good faith doesn't mean that you don't point out bias. Assuming good faith would mean not assuming another editor is attacking you. Like, oh, i don't know.... when an editor is talking about the average person that comes along to read Wikipedia as opposed to assuming that he secretly means you personally. "Taken in isolation, it would not be the worst thing in the world, but given other comments and Revan's recent history with LedRush, that is all reasonable enough evidence that at least some of that bad faith was meant for LedRush." So, even though he didn't actually say anything about LedRush we're just going to assume he was insulting him because they've had problems before? Sir, THAT'S assuming bad faith. The only one who knows his intentions is Revan, and unless he directly calls LedRush something then you can't attribute malicious intent to him. Ultimahero ( talk) 23:23, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Yes, sir, the burden of proof is on LedRush. Revan must demonstrate bias in his conversation, but not here. LedRush is making accusations here. It is LedRush's responsibility to link us to the appropriate areas so we can see what's going on. If LedRush just came and said, "Revan is being mean", with no examples to back it up, we would all scoff at the lack of evidence. So LedRush is obligated to provide examples of everything he says. It can't be unsubstantiated. So LedRush must link us to his arguments and demonstrate that he was not biased. That is the only way to show that Revan was, in fact, wrong in saying such things.
As to my example, you completely missed the point. It was intentionally outrageous. That's the whole idea. I'm trying to demonstrate that some edits are ridiculously biased and the only way to characterize them is as "biased'. If an editor continues to demonstrate such behavior then what other conclusions can be reached other than that he is, in fact, biased? And it would not be Revans responsibility to demonstrate here that this was the case, because he did not bring this issue to this page. LedRush did so he must show us where the evidence lies.
Again, it's superficial to distinguish between continually biased edits and a biased editor. It's similar to vandalism: If an editor continues to vandalize, we don't say, "Well, he's not a vandal, just his edits are". That would be ridiculous. We recognize that such behavior is definitional to the person's intent. We call that person a vandal (not bothering to worry about his feelings) and he is dealt with. Similarly, if an editor continually pushes a biased point of view, even after corrected several times, then what else re we to conclude than that he is trying to insert a particular viewpoint into the article? He is biased if he refuses to stop making biased edits. (Also, "address the edit, not the person" doesn't really work here. If you are calling the edit something negative, whether it be biased, stupid, etc., how does that NOT reflect on the editor? Would it be appropriate to say an edit is "stupid"? "I didn't say YOU were stupid, just that what you think and said are stupid." I just bring this up to say that in this context it seems worthless to try and distinguish between the editor and his edits because on necessarily reflects the other.)
Finally, you last comment is, quite frankly, silly. If an editor continually threw direct insults at another editor then that's one thing. It's clear that he has no intent on being civil. The point of the policy is if an editor is continually called direct names, like an idiot, he doesn't have to put up with it. But the policy DOES NOT mean that a prior history allows one editor to take another editors words and interpret them any way he likes regardless of context. Please, I would love for you to show me the policy that says, "If you've had problems with an editor in the past, then go ahead and take all his words as insults, even if he isn't talking about you. You no longer have to be objective." That's what you're arguing. That LedRush can take any comment, regardless of who is actually being addressed, and insert himself into it because he and Revan have had problems in the past. That is absolutely assuming bad faith. And your last statement is just a hodgepodge of all the accusations against Revan with all context thrown out. Your attempting to paint a worse picture than what actually exists. That's why we deal with each statement one at a time, IN THEIR OWN CONTEXT, to avoid the type of rhetoric you just exhibited.
I'm not saying that Revan has been perfect. However, it's unfair to say everything is on him. After his block he never went back and edited LedRush's page again. By all fair standards he has "stayed away"; he has not intentionally sought LedRush out. LedRush, on the other hand, continues to post on Revan's page. LedRush will go to Revan and say, "How come you aren't staying away from me?" It's hard to not see this as instigating on LedRush's part, at least to a certain degree. Surely we don't take the block to mean "LedRush and Revan can never edit the same page again". Even if Revan left the Zeppelin page and stared editing elsewhere, would he be forced to leave again if LedRush showed up? Mmyers1976, you must address this point because this is central. Does Revan's block mean that he and LedRush can no longer work on the same page? If not, then is it really fair of LedRush to go to Revan and accuse him of "not staying away"? Wouldn't that be instigating? Ultimahero ( talk) 18:48, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
This discussion has lead to the following: LedRush defends himself instead of I, which ought to be the case here, since he reported me. The accusations he made of me are farfetched, and it either ends with nothing, or with LedRush getting a warning for wrongfully accusing me several times and for hounding and provoking me. I have already said that I will try not to use the f-word, which was the one thing third parties found problematic. Revan ( talk) 00:19, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
You misunderstood. I meant exactly what you said: I ought to defend myself because I was reported, but I pointed out that this discussion has lead to the contrary, which only shows how inappropriate his reporting me is. Revan ( talk) 18:27, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
You are a lot of "maybes" and speculations, Mmyers. You (and LedRush) dismiss logic in preference of a more farfetched and defaming explanation, a result of bad faith. I'll say it again, your theories and speculations and "maybes" are farfetched. Your theories are farfetched and less logical. Revan ( talk) 00:04, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Additionally, this whole thing is opinions against each other, yours and LedRush's being more farfetched. You're talking about a "pattern of behavior" as proof that what I write is hidden insults. This pattern of behavior excuses other users' bad faith. I already explained that the fan boy comment didn't have anything to do with LedRush, but that you both keep insisting that it is an insult is like calling me a liar and defaming me, is it not? There is also no point in arguing against Ultimahero's very appropriate logical observation that calling the fan boy an insult is assuming very bad faith. But hey, my "pattern of behavior" excuses that. Let's hope you come across many patterns similar to mine. Simultaneously, LedRush also has a pattern, which is more like hounding: he got me blocked for writing on his talk page, yet he kept writing on mine multiple times; he provoked me several times by reminding me of my block when responding to me on the Led Zeppelin talk page, what I wrote having nothing to do with the recent block. That is pure provoking. I had even explicitly told him to drop the dead issue.
And I agree with Ultimahero that LedRush should prove that he wasn't biased, which he can't, because I based that comment on concrete posts he made and not on my general impression of him. And it's not an insult either, that's reading in too much in wikipedia policy, which is what LedRush has done by accusing me all to easily of attacking him.
We all know I won't get blocked by this. For all I know, it's LedRush who should receive a warning or 24 h block for the reasons I've stated. You can see on my talk page that I have considered reporting him. Revan ( talk) 18:38, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
Indeed, very farfetched, and not my opinion because of any childish side-choosing mentality you accused me of having, Mmyers1976. On top of it, you generalize my behavior as "guys like you" and employ something that looks like wishful thinking, "end up getting blocked another time" and accuse me of taking no responsibility for my tone when I actually have. It's very clear that you have a negative view of me. It boils down to this: I don't have to defend myself for any of LedRush's accusations; I have, in the beginning of this discussion, said that I will try not to use the f-word.
I consider this report of me a giant part of LedRush's hounding of me. If he continues, I will consider reporting him. A last question, to you two, even though I assume you will be light on him, and I don't mind if you are: do you think his hounding warrants a warning? Revan ( talk) 20:19, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I've noticed that. Revan ( talk) 01:48, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
By the way, I find this to be an incredibly telling statement by LedRush: "My goodness. Thank you for that incredibly gracious response. I often act like a magnifying mirror in conversations, reflecting either kindness or incivility back at the people with whom I communicate. It is not such a bad thing to be reminded to be more civil. I will take your advice regarding Revan and appreciate your thoughtful responses to my issues.LedRush (talk) 02:37, 23 March 2011 (UTC)". This was posted on MLauba's talk page. Ultimahero ( talk) 20:29, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
Here is a little algebraic proof. Revan's comment to LedRush is: "It's made clear that you're biased and driven by making Zeppelin look as awesome as possible." Then just a few lines later, he says: "And naturally, fan boys and stupid journalists will choose whatever makes Zeppelin look the bigger and the better."
So, in Revan's eyes:
LedRush = driven by making Zeppelin look as awesome as possible
and
Fanboys = choose whatever makes Zeppelin look the bigger and better
"driven by making zeppelin look as awesome as possible" and "chooce whatever makes Zeppelin look the bigger and better" are equivalent figures, so
driven by making Zeppelin look as awesome as possible = choose whatever makes Zeppelin look the bigger and better
Which means
LedRush = Fanboys
Farfetched indeed. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 01:45, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Context, context, context. Even if he said the same about both of them, they were in different contexts. It's still bad faith to assume that he was intentionally trying to call LedRush a fanboy. Ultimahero ( talk) 06:11, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Not it's absolutely not narrow. But your algebra lesson is extremely ridiculous and FARFECTHED and a result of BAD FAITH. Here's another equation for you: I was referring to the average reader who might take wikipedia's word too much for granted. But I'm very very aware of the fact that LedRush is better oriented with wikipedia than the average reader, so therefore he isn't an average reader, hence not one of the fan boys who might interpret wikipedia information as "fact" all too easily. I've already said that the comment wasn't about LedRush, but you keep implying that it is. You're trying to justify misinterpretation as a result of bad faith. My explanation is less farfetched than yours, truer, and less ridiculous.
LedRush = not the average wikipedia reader who takes wikipedia's word for granted and uses it as a source in articles or academic papers.
LedRush = not fan boy according to the fan boy comment.
On the other hand, LedRush invented ridiculous theories in an attempt to justify a known vandalism that occurred on the Zeppelin article in 2005. The vandalism was left unchanged for a while, which led to Reliable Sources quoting it (I refer to them as "stupid journalists" in my fan boy comment). And instead of accepting the logical and known fact that the vandalism caused that made up fact, and instead of acknowledging that no reliable sources state the same fact before the vandalism occurred, he makes up ridiculous theories in order to justify the absurd and false fact, just so it can stay in the article and make Led Zeppelin look bigger and more awesome than they would if the article only stated the real fact. That is why I called him biased (as you see, Mmyers, this is not very far from calling Led Zeppelin "the best band in the world"), and it can't be more substantiated and less of an insult. The issue is whether Led Zeppelin have sold 300 million albums (the false number) or 200 million albums (the better sourced and more likely number). You can see his theory in his first post in this discussion. It was called "inconceivable" by respected user Pirizcki, and LedRush avoided acknowledging the simple question: are there any sources claiming 300 million before the time of the vandalism? LedRush was clearly driven as a fan, not a neutral editor, to make Led Zeppelin look as awesome as possible. Less than this would qualify as clear bias. Hence, my comment being substantiated and not a "you're biased because you smell" kind of thing.
His theory is in his first post of this discussion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Led_Zeppelin/Archive_7#300_million Revan ( talk) 14:27, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Your under the radar insults are dearly noted. Nice try reporting me, LedRush. Revan ( talk) 15:47, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
And I don't know if you deliberately misspell Ultimahero's nic name or if you've misread it all along, but can you rephrase the sentence where you mention his greatest contribution? I suspect there's a grammatical error that prevents complete understanding.
Also, if you think I have continued my attacks and insults here, your hounding has simultaneously also continued. You keep blaming me all too easily for insulting and attacking, and you will get reported if you continue, at some point. You both engage in pointing out everything outside the context at hand, claiming that what you point at is proof that shows that you're right, which you really aren't... You're just farfetched, taking angry tones too personally. Revan ( talk) 15:55, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Edit: I just saw that you reported Ultimahero, Mmyers76. I wasn't convinced by one word and Ultimahero's response was very concise and with an appropriate length. Revan ( talk) 16:33, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
And yes, LedRush, of course I draw a distinction between the average reader who might not be aware of the possibility that wikipedia articles can include vandalism and false facts, and a well oriented wikipedia editor who knows more about how wikipedia works, of course I do, Even if you and the average Led Zeppelin fan (not well oriented with wikipedia) support the same number in this case. Why not draw a distinction when the means differ and the goal is the same? One takes wikipedia information for granted, and another tries to justify it with implausible theories. Which is worse? Revan ( talk) 16:38, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
I have a question about collapsing another user's comments. The specific situation is near the bottom of Wikipedia:Pending changes/Request for Comment February 2011, section "Evidence that not ending the trial has harmed Wikipedia" but I am looking for general guidance and a pointer the the right guideline or policy.
(Should this question be asked somewhere else? Perhaps the Village Pump?)
The situation is this:
User A posts a somewhat lengthy (37 lines on my monitor) argument.
User B put tags around it collapsing it.
User A revert the tags, asks User B to not collapse his comment.
User B reverts, putting the tags back, and tells User A not to revert.
User A, not wanting to edit war, leaves it collapsed and asks WA what to do. Is it proper to collapse another editor's comments when he has expressly asked you not to do so? Guy Macon ( talk) 17:43, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
The person who keeps posting the same stuff, loses the argument. Collect ( talk) 21:45, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
Mmyers1976 ( talk) 22:00, 21 April 2011 (UTC) I weighed in on the WQA on Revan as an uninvolved editor. I don't listen to Led Zeppelin, don't edit on any of the pages in question, and have never had an interaction of any kind with either editor. I gave my opinion. Ultimahero doesn't seem content to just give his opinion, he must browbeat and pick apart the opinion of any other uninvolved editor who takes a different opinion. His tone has been extremely condescending. Actually, I call him an uninvolved editor, but I cannot be sure if he is uninvolved or if he actually has some previous involvement or affilation, as his badgering of others as he wikilawyers on behalf of Revan certainly seems very partisan to me. I don't mind if someone starts off their opinion on the case by "i don't agree with (other user), here is my take on it" (I do it too), but I do think that feeling the need to offer a rebuttal to every post that takes a different position from yours derails the discussion. It certainly did in this case. The WQA should have been about mediating the conflict between Revan and LedRush, and instead a lot of it became a conflict between Ultimahero and me, when comments should have been directed at Revan and LedRush. I for my part accept my responsibility for allowing him to drag me into this, but Ultimahero calling the opinions of uninvolved editors who have volunteered their time to help out "silly", "farfetched", accusing them of bad faith, putting words in their mouths to mischaracterize their positions, calling them out for not responding to his offtopic scenarios that he latter admits were "intentionally outrageous" has a chilling effect on these kinds of discussions and will discourage uninvolved editors from volunteering their time. This is all very uncivil behavior, and when an uninvolved editor responds to a WQA alert, he should be trying to model the behavior that users failed to show in the discussion leading to the alert. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 22:00, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
I do not know either editor, and do not particulary care about Led Zeppelin. So I am uninvolved just as much as Mmyers1976, as my edit history will confirm. I gave an opinion, just like Mmyers1976. Yes, I do believe Revan was correct in this particular instance. That's what I think and I am free to have such an opinion.
Mmyers1976: "I gave my opinion. Ultimahero doesn't seem content to just give his opinion, he must browbeat and pick apart the opinion of any other uninvolved editor who takes a different opinion." I'm not sure how I browbeat anyone. According to dictionary.com, browbeat means to "be bossy towards" or to "discourage or frighten with threats or a domineering manner; intimidate". I don't see how I was could be characterized as bossy, because I don't believe I made any demands or told anyone what to do. And I certainly never threatened anyone. So I don't see how I did any of that. I simply stated what I thought, and was quite bold in stating it. But I don't see how that could be classified as bossy or threatening. I did attempt to "pick apart the opinion of any other uninvolved editor who takes a different opinion". I'm not sure what could possibly be wrong with that, though. If you offer an opinion, would you rather have me selectively take out single statements (and thus risk pulling them out of context), or thoroughly work through your entire statement, addressing things point by point? Maybe Mmyers1976 and I are just completely different people but I consider it to be respectful to interact with all of what was said by someone who disagrees.
"His tone has been extremely condescending." The problem with making arguments about tone is that A) It's all extremely subjective to begin with, and B) It's made even more difficult because you're attempting to gauge tone from written text. I perceived things he said to be condescending, as well, but I would think that in general it's good faith to assume the person isn't trying to be rude. That's why I never made accusations of "tone".
"Actually, I call him an uninvolved editor, but I cannot be sure if he is uninvolved or if he actually has some previous involvement or affilation, as his badgering of others as he wikilawyers on behalf of Revan certainly seems very partisan to me." Like I said before, I simply feel Revan is being wrongly accused. That's all. Speculating on my motivations like this seems as though it might be a violation of assuming good faith.
"I don't mind if someone starts off their opinion on the case by "i don't agree with (other user), here is my take on it" (I do it too), but I do think that feeling the need to offer a rebuttal to every post that takes a different position from yours derails the discussion." Why? How could thoroughly discussing every point derail the discussion? Again, is Mmyers1976 suggesting that I ignore large parts of his response? Perhaps addressing everything can be a hassle because it takes so long, but neither of us is compelled or obligated to be on this page. At any time we could say, "Eh, this is taking too long. Forget it". So I don't see the problem.
"The WQA should have been about mediating the conflict between Revan and LedRush, and instead a lot of it became a conflict between Ultimahero and me, when comments should have been directed at Revan and LedRush." It's true that we dominated the conversation, but it was always about them and their conflict. It was never personal between us (Until now, I suppose). So if was never off topic, then what's the problem.
"I for my part accept my responsibility for allowing him to drag me into this, but Ultimahero calling the opinions of uninvolved editors who have volunteered their time to help out "silly", "farfetched", accusing them of bad faith, putting words in their mouths to mischaracterize their positions, calling them out for not responding to his offtopic scenarios that he latter admits were "intentionally outrageous" has a chilling effect on these kinds of discussions and will discourage uninvolved editors from volunteering their time." First, it seems odd that Mmyers1976 would claim responsibility and then in the same sentence blame me by saying that I "dragged him into this". Again, how did I drag him? Was he obligated to respond? No. He freely chose to, so I don't think I dragged (which implies I forced) him anywhere.
Next, I do no appreciate Mmyers1976 cutting up my sentences and throwing them together like this. All of those (silly, farfetched, etc.) were in different contexts and by putting them in one string like this is to ignore context and imply that I said them as insults, which is not true. First, to say "opinions of uninvolved editors" is misleading because while I did talk to multiple editors in the above post, all the things cited were in my discussion with Mmyers1976 specifically. So to use plural pronouns implies I was repeatedly having problems with lots of different people, which simply is not the case.
Secondly, I understood (and still do understand) Mmyers1976 to have been saying that if two editors have had problems in the past, then one editor no longer has to assume good faith and can take whatever the other says and insert himself into the statement, thus allowing the editor to perceive insults when he was not even being discussed. I said that comment was silly. (I would like to point out that Mmyers1976 repeatedly stressed Wikipedia policy to address the edits and not the editor. He specifically said, " Maybe LedRush is biased, maybe he isn’t but had Revan commented on the edits, not the editor, we wouldn’t be here today." The context was calling an editor biased, so it seems Mmyers1976 is saying that it's okay to call edits biased as long as you don't call the editor biased. Yet here, even though I specifically said the COMMENT was silly, Mmyers1976 seems to think I am insulting him.) I did not call him silly, and I think my response is fair. If Mmyers1976 believes that I misunderstood his point that's fine but I don't see the problem with calling an extreme opinion (at least extreme as I perceived it) silly. I'm talking about someone's argument, not them as a person, so what's the problem?
Thirdly, Mmyers1976 had been taking a comment by Revan (the comment was, "My point is, this balanced estimation will leave readers to choose between the two figures in whatever way they seem fit. And naturally, fan boys and stupid journalists will choose whatever makes Zeppelin look the bigger and the better") which was clearly about the average reader and insisted that it was a veiled shot at LedRush. I said, "They are farfetched. The fanboys comment is inexcusable due to the context. It is obviously farfetched to take as an insult something that isn't even about you." Again, I'm clearly commenting on the argument, not the person. And this is also where the "bad faith" remark comes in, because earlier I had pointed out that one had to assume bad faith to interpret something as an insult that was referring to someone else. I said, " So, even though he didn't actually say anything about LedRush we're just going to assume he was insulting him because they've had problems before? Sir, THAT'S assuming bad faith. The only one who knows his intentions is Revan, and unless he directly calls LedRush something then you can't attribute malicious intent to him." I think it's bad faith to assume that someone is probably trying to insult you when they aren't even discussing you.
Fourth, Mmyers1976 says I was "putting words in their mouths to mischaracterize their positions". I'm not sure what he's talking about here, because he doesn't give an example of me "putting words in his mouth", but I feel the second part of the sentence is even more telling. He says the purpose of putting words in his mouth is to "mischaracterize their positions". So apparently Mmyers1976 believes that my intention was to purposefully mis-characterize him. He didn't establish that I actually did put words in his mouth, but for the sake of argument let's assume I did. Isn't it possible that I just misunderstood what he was saying? But no, Mmyers1976 assigns a negative motivation to me, namely, to "mischaracterize their positions". Clearly this is an assumption of bad faith.
Fifth, he says I was, "calling them out for not responding to his offtopic scenarios that he latter admits were "intentionally outrageous" has a chilling effect on these kinds of discussions and will discourage uninvolved editors from volunteering their time". The scenario he refers to was not off-topic. He was saying it's never fair to call another editor biased. I responded by giving a scenario that was obviously biased (The example was someone writing, "Clearly, Led Zeppelin is the worst/greatest band ever") in order to point out that some edits are so extreme that they clearly prove the editor to be biased. He did not address this, so I pointed out that he had not answered my argument. He responded by saying, "Did LedRush in fact say anything like "Led Zepplin is the greatest band ever" in ArticleSpace? If not, then your example simply is not worth addressing. Let's not make this about silly hypotheticals, let's keep this about actual comments we can observe in diffs." (Before I go anywhere else, notice that he said my example was "silly", which is the exact same word I used of his comment that he cited as uncivil.) I point out here that I knew LedRush had not said anything like this, and I didn't accuse him of doing so. I responded to Mmyers1976 by saying, "As to my example, you completely missed the point. It was intentionally outrageous. That's the whole idea. I'm trying to demonstrate that some edits are ridiculously biased and the only way to characterize them is as "biased'." Mmyers1976 never addressed my example again until bringing it up here. I think it's worth noting HOW he address it. He characterizes it as "off-topic", which I "[admitted was] "intentionally outrageous". This, of course, is an unfair characterization. They were on topic, and the example was extreme to prove a fair point. I believe by phrasing it the way he does Mmyers1976 presents an unfair picture of what I said.
Lastly, Mmyers1976 says, "This is all very uncivil behavior, and when an uninvolved editor responds to a WQA alert, he should be trying to model the behavior that users failed to show in the discussion leading to the alert". I don't see how I was uncivil. All of my "controversial" comments were directed towards arguments, never people. So I will allow the reader to determine who, if anyone, has acted with a lack of civility. Thank you. Ultimahero ( talk) 00:05, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Ultimahero gives an 1,800+ word response to a a 334 word report. If anyone needed evidence of my claim that his comments derail a WQA discussion, this is it. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 01:35, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Yes, my response is certainly long. But that's because I thoroughly went and responded line by line, quoting Mmyers1976 and his accusations, and offering a direct response. That's not to mention the fact that I had to give context, through direct quotes, of all the accusations made against me because Mmyers1976's original post offered none. I know it can be timely to go through all of this. However, Mmyers1976 did not respond to a single point that I made. So, I will ask anyone who reads this thread, which is preferable: A)Someone who takes a long time, but responds to everything you have said, or B) Someone who offers very short answers but ignores most if not all of your carefully worded response. Let the reader decide.
And Mmyers1976, please answer this one question: Are you saying you would prefer it if I ignored larger portions of what you write and instead selectively picked and chose whatever seems favorable to me? Ultimahero ( talk) 06:20, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
This was my response to Keithbob:
"I disagree with Keithbob's analysis. He used the quote, "Everything you're talking about is original research, and not very believable, either" to substantiate a personal comment by LedRush. But I fail to see how this is personal. Telling someone that they're inserting original research is not personal; it's directly addressing the information being presented. At the same time, though, I don't agree with all the examples LedRush posted. Saying someone is biased is not a personal attack; it would be perfectly true and legitimate for me to say that LedRush is biased in this dispute since it has affected him. There is no personal attack there. Also, saying that someone has no credibility is not necessarily a personal attack, either. The reason for lack of credibility would determine if it's personal. If he said you had no credibility because you smelled, then that's personal because it's being based on a personal reason. However, if a person vandalized a page repeatedly then they could be said to have no credibility and that would be perfectly fair and on-topic. So we need more context to establish what whether it was proper or not. But the swearing by Revan is surely out of line.Ultimahero (talk) 17:16, 19 April 2011 (UTC)"
I fail to see how that's excessive. Ultimahero ( talk) 18:46, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Admin, just go ahead and close this one as unresolved, no action, whatever you want to call it, I don't care. I just don't enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing as much as some here. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 19:25, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Some days ago I had a case here with ClaudioSantos [49] because of his persistent breaches of wikiquette. Once I thought it was more or less settled, I just left it and forgot about it.
However, now I see he has changed his talk page in a spurious and hostile way, posting a copy of the original Wikiquette Alerts thread and tagging it as:
"Some off-topic nonsense, summary: wikipedians have revealed in wikipedia SPK-patient's names, professions, pictures, etc. against their will and/or linked their data to hostile(hostile), mendacious(false), spurious(non-genuine) chatter against them and against SPK. The SPK has not revealed nor published some wikipedians' names, professions, pictures, etc. which has been already revealed by the own wikipedians to anyone all around the WEB included the own wikipedia."
I strongly believe this is yet another proof that Claudio doesn't care at all about wikiquette and building an encyclopedia, and that he's just trying to game the system once again. Sabbut ( talk) 09:29, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Recently appearing on this page was a WQA filed by another editor regarding personal attacks by Brian Josephson at Talk:Energy Catalyzer. (For context, the Energy Catalyzer is a putative cold fusion invention. The inventor has made a number of announcements about his device and its possible commercialization over the last few months. There has been extensive and sometimes heated discussion on the article talk page about the quality, independence, and reliability of sources used in the article, as well as the appropriate interpretation and weighting of those sources in the article.)
Over the last day or two, Brian Josephson has suggested that a number of established Wikipedia editors (including myself and at least one other Wikipedia administrator) are part of a "squad" of editors, using abusive and disruptive editing approaches, potentially as part of a secret conspiracy by 'hot' (or 'conventional') fusion researchers threatened by the Energy Catalyzer and similar cold fusion devices.
He has continued to imply a conspiracy against him, with the absurd reasoning
In response to specific requests that he explain who he believed had a conflict of interest, he declared
He just doesn't seem to get that this sort of thing poisons any chance of constructive collaboration. He's not going to listen to me; I'm hoping that an independent voice might persuade him that casting these sorts of aspersions on the ethics of good-faith editors just isn't the Done Thing. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 17:15, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
I was hoping someone could help the author of this drive-by talk-page vandalism out with Wikipedia's civility policy. 24.177.120.138 ( talk) 06:21, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This stems from a series of thirteen deletions for electronics component articles. A convenient list is here. The disparaging comments are Wtshymanski's.
These were PROD'ed, rejected, than AfD'ed. For the purpose of WQA it's not just the behaviour to this point that is at issue, but behaviour since. This has been an unusually ill-tempered (and single-handedly so) set of AfDs with a tenacious amount of flogging a dead horse afterwards.
The basic premise behind these deletions is that, "parts list articles are not notable". These components are all real electronic components, with a huge range of references behind them from any number of standard parts handboooks. Yet this does not, allegedly, confer notability. The problem is some variant of WP:MILL: simply existing and being recorded as such is not notable, in the way that a phone number is not notable, despite being well catalogued. Only components with some real claim to distinctive novelty could be said to be "noteworthy", and thus considered WP:Notable.
The strange part is that no-one, even at the AfDs, seems to disagree with this principle. The dissent is that these components are, by and large, reckoned to be that handful of components that do meet the more stringent criteria for being noteworthy.
Most of the debate seemed to take place on this AfD, the rest being somewhat repetitive.
These in turn gave rise to a centralised discussion
Behaviour during this AfD was far from ideal. In particular, I don't believe that AGF extends to comparing other editors to a psychotic murderer.
Some rare support:
The AfDs have now mostly closed as keeps. There is some support for deleting a couple where it's agreed that they are indeed just "parts list" items.
So far, process seems to have worked just as it ought and an excess of zeal by one editor has been compensated for. However behaviour since really is getting beyond a joke. They seem incapbable of making any comment without a sarcastic edit summary, they refuse to recognise that there is any other valid viewpoint:
Shortly after one AfD closed as keep, they re-tagged it for notability - yet isn't this what was just discussed?
This is an editor who refuses to respect consensus, or that he might be "right yet outvoted", and that in the interests of the encyclopedia it's time to put the stick down and leave the horse be.
This is not the working atmosphere we're supposed to have to put up with. This editor's behaviour is intolerable. Andy Dingley ( talk) 21:06, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
I have been concerned about the pattern of Wtshymanski's edits and talk page comments ever since I first saw the behavior pattern on List of 7400 series integrated circuits. There appears to be on ongoing pattern WP:OWNERSHIP and WP:CIVIL problems. Especially troubling was his response when I expressed the above concerns on his talk page: "And yet, every time someone lists me at WqA, or ANI, it peters out due to lack of interest." [54]
Also see:
Search Wikiquette alerts:Wtshymanski
User:Wtshymanski/parts
Special:Contributions/Wtshymanski
User:Wtshymanski/Griping
Search Administrators' noticeboard: Wtshymanski
Guy Macon (
talk)
11:33, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
UPDATE: I recently decided to bookmark Wtshymanski's contributions page and review them every so often. This was not to stalk or harass, but because he is a rare combination of (1) Being interested in the same sort of technology articles I am - I already run into him again and again as I edit. (2) Personally likable (you know how some people just annoy you? For me, he is the opposite.) (3) Makes many edits and comments I strongly disagree with. (4) Makes many edits and comments I strongly agree with. (5) Rock solid technical contributions.
My observation from this is that he is following Wikipedia policies and guidelines a lot better, and that he appears to respond well to criticism or warnings that are backed up by citations to policy. There is far less sarcasm and baiting in his talk page and edit comments, and he appears to be rapidly improving in the area of choosing what to nominate for deletion - he has been finding some real stinkers that other editors missed. In my opinion, this is a good example of the old saying "It is easier to teach a smart person to be nice than it is to teach a nice person to be smart."
Because of what I have observed, in my opinion this Wikiquette alert should be closed. If it is closed, I advise any editors who have a problem with him to put a polite warning on his talk page - but please be 100% sure that the warning is valid, and pay attention if he says it isn't, because there is a high probability that he is right. Guy Macon ( talk) 23:11, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
You ever have an editor you really liked but makes you a little embarrassed for having publicly supported him when he turns out to have a tenuous grasp on WP:CIVIL? Yeah, that basically happened to me with this editor. I think his heart is in the right place, but, he's gotten ruder and ruder. That said I can understand some of it. I wish I could assume more good faith, because I understand his frustration. We have WP:GNG but then we establish project essays and sub-categories that seem to disregard WP:RS WP:N WP:V and WP:GNG. It can be frustrating to take clear cases to AfD only to have them defended against all policy by fans. On the other hand he made many mistakes, including many cases of nominating before even a cursory attempt to look for sources (yes most transistors are not notable, but some of the first, most popular, ect. are very notable). I think he needs to be helped and warned because his viewpoint is a valuable one: an editor that favors strong inclusion criteria even within their area of fandom/expertise. HominidMachinae ( talk) 04:30, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
In my opinion, if someone keeps trying SPEEDY before PROD or AFD and keeps getting shot down by the admin who evaluates the speedy, the possibility of forum shopping should be considered. A history of trying to get things deleted any way he can rather than embracing the idea of consensus adds weight to the possibility. Nominated, Declined, AFD.
This page is an archive. Do not edit the contents of this page. Please direct any additional comments to the current main page. |
Prajwal21 is continuously striking a deadlock regarding the signature of Priyanka Chopra. He says that I have wrongly copied the signature provided by him, only changed the format and uploaded it. I can't understand that why his says that the image is ineligible for copyright... when I can't even upload a better image. He is jealous of me and thinks that I am stealing the credit when I have provided him due credit. He has already listed the image for deletion and, outrageously, even for speedy deletion!. You can also read a detailed arguement about the topic at here. He has reverted my edits 4 times as you can see over here in diff 1, diff 2, diff 3, and diff 4. I have repeatedly told him to assume good faith, remain civil, and understand the Commons transition to SVG images. I havn't seen one signature on Wikipedia which is not in SVG format. In the end of the fourth reversion, you can see that Prajwal21 has labelled me as bogus and non-sense. I've tried to resolve this edit war on the article talk page as you can see over here in this diff of attempt to resolve dispute on article talk page and in this diff of attempt to resolve dispute on user talk page. I would like this issue immidiately resolved as he is acting as if he OWNS THE ARTICLE GaneshBhakt ( talk) 14:25, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
User keeps removing true and pertinent data to this particular page. Citations from FCC information, station ownership and licensing that may put the station in a less than flattering image are being censored. 71.161.44.88 ( talk) 05:49, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
I was editing the page List of World Series champions. There was a table here that listed franchises by appearance which I tried to edit. I added my explanation for doing so but the edits were promptly removed by another user, with no explanation given. I re-added the edits, this time with a more detailed description. This time my edits were removed by the admin Killervogel5. He simply stated that the table was to be arranged in a different manner than what I had been trying to do. He did not link to any policy or previous discussion that showed a consensus had already been reached on this issue; he seemingly just was making an argument from authority. (Namely, that he knew how it should be done and I didn't.) He then wrote on my page and warned me of edit-warring, which I believe was unfounded claim. I then wrote on the discussion page why I thought my edit made sense. I also alerted him and we began to discuss the issue. He told me initially that I was being uncivil, and he was probably correct since I was angry at the time. However, I calmed down and attempted to reach a conclusion on the issue and he continued to act in an abrasive manner. We both admitted to having felt "badgered", at which point he told me "Then go about your merry way." I pointed out that we hadn't reached a conclusion and he responded, "I don't need to "give you" anything. I disagree with your edits but I don't feel like arguing about it. So move on."This is how the conversation continued until I eventually gave up seeking an answer. The issue for the article itself remains unsettled, but what concerns me is the manner in which I was treated by an admin. I am not claiming to be perfect, for I certainly was not. But while an admin may correct me, no one will say anything to him if I don't bring it up. The entirety of the discussion can be found on his talk page, although I believe that he has deleted it. Talk This is where the discussion can be found. Thank you. Ultimahero ( talk) 00:46, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
As far it being a lame edit war, that was my point. I don't believe I ever did start an edit-war on the page. So to be accused of it after 2 edits (which even stated above was not violating any policy) seems absurd to me. I believe my questions for User:Killervogel5) were not out of line; he had involved himself and I was simply asking him for a resolution to our dispute. I didn't want to walk away not knowing if he would revert my edits the next day; and I don't believe that I was out of line to feel that way. I readily accept that initially I was indeed uncivil, and will accept any correction that is due to me. I simply believe that User:Killervogel5) acted out of haste (accusing me of something, then refusing to give a simple answer.) I don't feel he should get in trouble or anything; I just feel that as an admin his behavior was a bit questionable. I would simply like another admin (whom I believe would have more credibility) to ask him to consider his tone in the future. Ultimahero ( talk) 19:06, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
With all due respect you ARE accountable to a higher standard. Or, at the very least, more is to be expected out of you than the average editor. You have the ability to block people, and thus when you warn people it carries weight. For you to accuse me of an edit-war, despite the fact that I only made 2 reverts in a day (thus not violating any policy) and gave good reasons for them, all the while not warning the person who changed my edits without explanation, is inappropriate. If you had been anyone other than an admin I would have ignored such a silly accusation because it's obviously false. But, since you are an admin I had to pay attention because I don't wish to be blocked. As for the discussion we had it was only unproductive because you refused to contribute. You boldly involved yourself and then simply walked away when I asked you for an answer. I simply asking other admins, who carry more weight than myself, to explain that such actions BY AN ADMIN are not okay. Ultimahero ( talk) 03:45, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
On Wikipedia:Administrators there is a list of expectations for admins, which proves that indeed admins are held to a higher standard. Most notably for our purposes is this line: "Administrators are expected to lead by example and to behave in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others". Ultimahero ( talk) 03:58, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
Sir, that's what I did. There was no edit-war. That was my point. I made one edit and explained why I made it. It was reverted without any reason given. I made the edit again with a fuller explanation and it was again deleted. So then I edited the talk page and this problematic discussion ensued. I appreciate your desire to help but please familiarize yourself with the issue before offering a critique. Ultimahero ( talk) 04:06, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps I've been unclear. I'm not frustrated over the table arrangement. I am frustrated that an admin would accuse me of edit-warring after a mere two edits. I am frustrated that I alone am chastised, even though by definition it would take multiple people to revert a page back and forth. I am frustrated that when I went to discuss it with Killervogel5, he refused to listen. Walking away from the issue would be fine, but telling me things such as "go your merry way", "move on", as well as the general combative tone he employed are beyond simply walking away. These are certainly not the types of things that one would define as "civility", right? You state that he didn't do anything "all that wrong". So then it was wrong, just not REALLY wrong. Forgive me but that makes no sense to me. If it was wrong, in any sense, then it deserves some level of correction, does it not? I said from the beginning that I didn't think that he should be banned or anything; I would simply like a fellow admin to take two minutes to remind him how administrators should lead by example. Ultimahero ( talk) 15:58, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
Attacked me in pretty rude language here. Besides, the allegation that I removed his contents cannot be true, since he only registered today (on Apr 18, 2011 17:40:24), after I did the cleanup. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 22:39, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
This IP editor made 4 reverted edits with information that wouldn't meet WP:MEDRS. They seem to be on some sort of crusade to push mercury in vaccines causing autism which has been thoroughly, and when I mean thoroughly, I mean without a doubt, debunked. One of the researchers in one of the studies has committed a fraud of stealing money. One of maybe 10 studies, so deleting the one with monetary fraud (and no indication of scientific or medical fraud, but it's not good), we still have numerous studies that have shown no link. Nevertheless, and even if we should consider mentioning this issue, the IP editor is making a number of posts in Talk:Causes of autism. He's been asked by several editors to chill out. And of course, he/she/it is at 4RR on the article. They're not getting it. Block 'em. Ban 'em. Take his computer away. Do something. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 04:08, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
This user has made repeated personal attacks on me in several articles. In the case at hand, I shortened an extensive quote which had nothing to do with the journal, and was greeted with this sort of comment: user Collect (talk · contribs), who often follows my edits and who had no prior involvement with this article, and with whom I'm currently in contention over an unrelated matter at AN/I, deleted the quote, saying it was a violation of NPOV. Partly because Collect claimed at AN/I that this journal is a reliable source and Collect is perfectly welcome to try find sources that claim this web site represents a sterling and unbiased example of the highest standards in medical research publishing, and . I will not be debating the question with Collect, however, as I've learned from previous experience that doing so is invariably unproductive. (all in [1]. I would hasten to point out that I became aware of the article at AfD, and not by following anyone around at all. And that Ohiostandard also !voted !keep for the article. [2].
Further examples: [3] *Comment. Collect apparently doesn't understand the word "retain", and I've reverted his deletion of the passage. Shooterwalker, Fred, do either of you have any changes you'd like to propose to the language, at all? – OhioStandard ( talk) 02:54, 18 March 2011 (UTC) To make this one clear see [4] Herostratus (talk | contribs) (52,998 bytes) (remove contentious unproven material per WP:BRD, WP:CONSENSUS, see talk ("re collectables")) (undo) precisely confirming the correctnes of my position.
[5] where he indicates that he is actually following me Sorry, Collect; I understand the concerns that motivated
your edit, and I have some sympathy for those concerns, but you've introduced too marked a deviation from long-established policy, and I've reverted your change. You'll note that at the top of this talk page there's a notice that says, in part, "Before editing this page, please make sure that your revision reflects consensus." We're at the "D" stage in WP:BRD at this point; if you find a great majority of editors strongly support your desired change that's one thing, but right now it's just you. You'll need pretty broadly-based support before your changes can become policy. –
OhioStandard (
talk)
17:08, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
And at AN/I: [6] et seq. Again he managed to follow my edits <g> but accuses an admin I'm sorry to have to bring this here, but it seems pretty clear that Rklawton won't tolerate any critical information being fairly represented in this article if he can possibly help it, and that he's perfectly willing to try to bully other editors to prevent that from happening. I know he's an admin, but he's still obliged to conform to our policies disallowing personal attacks, battleground behavior, and article ownership, and I'd appreciate it if the community would take whatever steps are necessary to try to make him understand that ... [7] Gamaliel, I've never interacted with Rklawton before that I can recall, although Collect has been pretty unhappy with me since I took part in a discussion last year that ended in his being blocked etc. (OS has been after me a number of times, and the "block" was soundly berated by other admins bythe way), etc. Then the hubris of [8]. Yet another attack: I think it'll probably be more productive if I refrain from responding to any further accusations from Collect, if I can reasonably do so. I'd appreciate it, though, if an administrator would take a look at a recent development
Ohiostandard is apparently unable to post anywhere on Wikipedia without attempting to demonize me personally. [9] represents yet one more article where his first edits were well after my edits. Heck [10] he even admonishes me for posting a new subject flush left! Especially, please don't post at flush-left, since doing so prevents others from using normal threading protocol to reply to posts.) [11] Is it really so onerous a burden to refrain from posting at flush-left, Collect? What would be the harm in extending the very simple courtesy of allowing others to respond to the original post without being prevented from doing so by your post? I've again indented the above to preserve other editors' ability to reply to the original post. I'll not insist on the point, but is it really too much to ask that you allow them the right to do so?
In short: Ohiostandard appears quite totally obsessed with me, and I am just getting tired of it. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 18:49, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
and also:
[12] Likewise, the Eridu-Dreaming account exhibits the same tendencies toward formatting and placement of posts that Collect also employs with the effect of setting off talk page contribtions more prominently in a thread than is usual. As I said, I sincerely doubt Collect would ever try anything like this. OTOH, I also think it's better to initiate an SPI when one has any doubt than to just wonder, since socking is such a huge problem on Wikipedia. I imagine Collect will take this personally, given our negative history, but for my part, I'd want anyone who had any suspicion I might be socking to initiate an SPI. Anyway, he asked me to stay off his talk page after I took part in a discussion that led to his being blocked last October, so if it's required to inform him of this, would someone please do so on my behalf? Thank you which is an overt accusation that I am a sock puppeteer. I expect Collect will respond with his usual misstatements of my actions, but I'm not going to try to correct those that I'm sure will be coming, and will trust instead to the diligence of other users to just examine any claims he makes, if they care about any such claims. More generally, because he's been so extremely reactive to me since I took part in a discussion that resulted in him being blocked last October, I'm not going to respond to Collect any further here, to try to keep the drama level as low as it can be in this. But I'll of course be glad to respond to any questions or comments any uninvolved user or SPI admin might like to direct my way. If anyone has any, any comments or questions about any of this, please post them after the e-mail that follows so this post and that disclosure remain together on the page. Thanks same accusation. I acutally considered repeated accusations of that nature without even a wisp of evidence other than hatred to be a violation of Wikiquette as well. His mileage appears to differ.
Collect (
talk)
19:00, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
I don't know why this dispute started, but judging from what I've seen on Talk:Prescott Bush and Wikipedia:ANI#User_Rklawton_.22A_dirty.2C_rotten.2C_low-life.2C_disruptive_trick.22, no one has acquitted themselves well here and there's great examples of boorishness all around. Gamaliel ( talk) 04:00, 11 April 2011 (UTC) (AN/I thread in archives)
Okay, I'd wanted to give time for third-party opinions to be expressed here before I replied, myself, but I guess I'll go ahead add my own reply now. First I'd like to say that I'd be glad to address each of the many points raised here if I could reasonably suppose that this had been filed in good faith, rather than as a retaliation for my having initiated a now-archived thread at AN/I that was politely critical of Rklawton and Collect. As will appear from the following, though, I can't reasonably do so, and thus won't be taking the very significant amount of time that would be necessary to reply to each of the many points Collect raises above. I do hope, however, that anyone who's inclined to accept any of the accusations made above will take the time to examine the diffs he presents carefully, and especially to look at the original context in which I made the comments he cites above, rather than merely relying on his own characterizations and commentary. For anyone who does so, I believe a very different picture will emerge than the one he presents here.
This began when I had the impudence to perform a single revert of one of Rklawton's edits to the Prescott Bush article, and to propose some impeccably sourced (NYT, CNN, AP, FOX, etc.) content on the article's talk page (permalink) that he didn't like. For exactly that, and for very politely citing the policies that support that content for literally days on its then-current talk page, I was told by Rklawton that I'd be reverted on sight, that my behavior was "dirty", "rotten", and "low-life", and called "sneaking", "disruptive", "a wikilawyer", a "clueless noob", and "an ass". I never responded in kind; not once. His "clueless noob" comment was made here, actually, just above, which is really pretty ironic if you think about the venue we're in.
Collect's part in all this was to support Rklawton to the maximum extent possible, first at the Prescott Bush talk page, then in the AN/I thread I began (concise summary), and finally, in my view, by filing this frivolous report. The article in question is evidently dear to not only Rklawton, but also to Collect, who has been fighting for almost five years to keep any negative content out of that article. Since my single reversion restored the last mention in the article of content they apparently loathe, my single reversion touched a nerve with them both, and they both responded as if they'd been personally attacked, which was absolutely not the case. Collect and I have had conflict previously; as he notes in the text he cited above. It's my impression that that conflict has been largely motivated by my having commented extensively in a matter last October that led to his being blocked. He felt and feels that the block was hugely unfair, and I doubt he's ever likely to let go of his evident anger at me over that.
Alright, that's the sordid background for all this. Since I don't consider this WQA report to have been filed in good faith, I'm not going to devote much more of my time to responding to it. I don't mind responding to the first point Collect raises here, though, which I think is actually a pretty fair example of the rest.
In the first point of Collect's complaint, he objects to my comments on the talk page for our article on an astroturf/stealth web site that presents itself, falsely, as a typical, NPOV medical journal. That he would try to use that particular interchange to try justify his actions and discredit mine demonstrates a degree of cynicism that's astounding to me. It really amazes me that he could try to use something in which he's so indisputably and egregiously in the wrong to try to accuse me of incivility, misconduct, and (at AN/I) of copyright violation. It's a regrettably harsh thing to have to say, but his strategy seems to be to fling whatever mud he thinks might have a chance to stick.
As Collect wrote right at the outset of this report, "In the case at hand, I shortened an extensive quote which had nothing to do with the journal," and goes on to object to my response on the corresponding talk page.
I can only guess that Collect is hoping users won't bother to click a link to examine his accusations. I'm hoping you will. If you don't examine any other claim he's made, please examine this one.
If you don't want to click the link to investigate his claim on this first point, I'll provide it in brief, here. After he followed me to the page and deleted the passage I'd added there, Collect then performed his "shortening" of the restored quote which, he says, "had nothing to do with the journal". The words that are shown below as strikthrough text represent his deletions:
Also referring to this journal, authors in the Canadian Medical Association Journal wrote,
Efforts to undermine the science specific to HIV prevention for injection drug users are becoming increasingly sophisticated. One new and worrisome trend is the creation of internet sites posing as open-access, peer-reviewed scientific journals. One such example, funded by the Drug Free America Foundation,[this journal] contains a review of the research supporting needle exchange program and declares that the "effectiveness of NEPs [needle exchange program] to reduce HIV among IDUs [injection drug users] is overrated;"it further claims that the WHO position on needle exchange programs "is not based on solid evidence."
Collect's edit summary for this was merely, "wp:undue". Please note that this change radically distorts the meaning of the passage from its authors' intention. Nor was the intact passage "verging on copyvio", either, as he claimed at AN/I. Again, please look at this in its context, if you have the least doubt about the propriety of my actions, and to determine for yourself whether Collect's accusation holds up, and also to see what a third-party had to say about his actions there.
It's my opinion that anyone who's capable of making so egregiously cynical an accusation, where the example he uses to do so actually documents a misrepresentation on his part that any RL encyclopedia writer would be fired for on the spot, is not to be trusted with respect to the balance of the complaints he makes here, either.
I'll close by saying two things: One is that this was the first time that anyone has ever taken any complaint against me to any of the dispute resolution boards. I sometimes miss the mark, of course, but I usually try hard to keep things collegial, and to try to understand anyone's objections or complaints, even if I don't necessarily agree with them. Second, I've had more than enough strife with Rklawton and (especially) Collect at the now-archived AN/I thread, already, and I'm not going to provide any further defense, here. I have no more time that I'm willing to spend in that way: This has cost me far too much time and trouble already. – OhioStandard ( talk) 21:06, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
LedRush stated that I was "unnecessarily combative," and told me to "settle down and try and be constructive," on an article where he had pledged to "try [his] best to avoid comment on the behavior of other editors." My attempt to get him to stop was reverted by him with the comment "being combative is not civil." I would appreciate assistance. Thanks. Hipocrite ( talk) 23:54, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
Personally, I find this whole thing a non-issue, other than the fact that Hipocrite has seemed to make it his policy to pursue a vendetta against me through personal attacks and harassment. I believe he tries to anger me on the talk page and then takes any chance he can to try and catch me in a "gotcha" moment of not being 100% civil. LedRush ( talk) 00:43, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
The above editor, failing to get his way in a dispute over article content, has made an escalating series of personal attacks, culminating in this one, directed at me: "Please don't display your complete ignorance of science any more than you have to. You probably don't even know what the term [calorimetry] means" ( diff). The assertion is of course laughable, but I think that Josephson needs to be reminded that WP:NPA applies, and that continual breaches are likely to result in action being taken against him. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 21:34, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
Hogwash: nonsense. See also _political speeches_. Collect ( talk) 14:05, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
I would consider bringing someone where for that "insult" to be more of a personal attack than what was said originally. In short, the complainant sounds more like a whiner than the accused sounds like he's got an etiquette problem. Suck it up or go away. Wikipedia isn't for the thin-skinned. On a tangential note, we need to confirm that User:Brian Josephson is entitled to use that name since the name also belongs to a notable person. Rklawton ( talk) 14:24, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Though multiple editors including myself, User:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz, User:Nymf, and User:Crohnie have reverted his edits at Nicole Kidman, he continued to edit war, just narrowly avoiding 3RR, and as you can see by the subhead of a post he left on my talk page ("Your continous attempts at blocking my edits for no reason other than having no life? Or your personal distaste for Kidman"), he is being uncivil and abusive toward other editors.
As you can see by his talk page, he has been blocked in the past, and is currently causing the same commotion at Cate Blanchett and possibly other articles. I implore you to intervene. Tenebrae ( talk) 20:26, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
Then leave me and my edits alone, in fact don't visit Nicole's page since all you're going to do is whine about me, like you're doing now. Again, YOU'RE COMING AT ME, so if you post on my page I'm only gonna come back and make you whine again. ENOUGH! DeadSend4 (talk) 20:36, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
I have a feeling that DeadSend4 and his socks/IPs aren't going to reason with us, considering that he has been owning/edit warring the article for well over 5 months. ANI next? Nymf hideliho! 13:03, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Agreeing pretty much with all of the above. This is an aggressive editor who appears to insist that all of his/her changes must stand absent an overwhelming consensus, if not more, that they are unacceptable. With the exception, perhaps, of the edits regarding Ghost, none of the edits appear to involve policy or guideline, but are style and emphasis choices, where no more than simple consensus is required. If DeadSend4 were making a case relating to accuracy, NPOV, OR, or some other BLP-rooted matters, some level of aggressiveness might be justified, but I see virtually nothing here beyond a refusal to deal with a contrary consensus. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz ( talk) 22:10, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
UPDATE - User has made a legal threat. Reported at WP:ANI. CycloneGU ( talk) 19:02, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
See [31]. I have explained my position and asked him to retract his accusation: [32] [33] [34]. But he refuses to retract: [35] [36] [37] Miradre ( talk) 21:45, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
I looked through the thread and Miradre's edit history going back to his very first edits. While Maunus's comment was not worded as civilly as it could have, calling someone an SPA is only uncivil (lack of AGF) if there is not clear evidence that they actually are an SPA. Miradre's edits show that he is clearly an SPA, so that is not an attack, and once you have clear evidence that someone is an SPA, the bar lowers for when it is acceptable to point out percieved POV pushing, so I don't see Maunus's comment about him pushing a pro-White nationalist viewpoint as being an actionable offense. I think everyone should just back up, take a breath, and move on with the AfD. Not saying anyone did anything terribly wrong here, but I think in this case maybe it is best to even more scrupulously than usual avoid commenting on editors and their editing patterns. Maunus, if you really think the SPA issue is important information for the AfD, maybe just use a SPA tag on one of Miradre's posts, so that people can be informed but decide for themselves if it matters in the AfD. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 23:00, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Miradne, no one really cares about your personal philosophy, so you don't need to defend it here. That's not the issue. However, you ARE an SPA (like FisherQueen said, not against the rules, but can be problematic), and that coupled with your edits gave Maunus reasonable cause to suspect POV-pushing. He may be right, he may be wrong, but given your edit history, his comments were not unsubstantiated, commented on the edits, not the editor, and so were not a personal attack or uncivil. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 15:21, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
Anarchangel's behavior at AfD has become disruptive and downright nasty. He accused Collect of lying, was forced to redact, but then wrote "You [Collect] assert untruths even when they have been disproven." And then, "you have a promise that I will continue to show your prevarication and obfuscation as I have here." Collect is content to make his points and point out Anarchangel's bias and disruption to the closing admin, while Anarchangel has made this his personal battleground based on years of disappointing interations with Collect. He wrote (and later struck) "For years, I had given up hope of actually catching you lying. It's almost sad in a way, the end of an era." Indulge a literary analogy: Collect is the whale to Anarchangel's Ahab. Lionel ( talk) 02:35, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
Kindly note that I have !voted on a huge number of XfDs. That Anarchangel "just began" to see them is a teensy bit odd. And note that he retains the claim of "prevarication" which, as nearly as I can tell, is the same as saying "liar." On a personal note, if Collect and Ferrylodge are both banned, I will come back to Wikipedia. Kelly, I can handle. does seem to be a teensy bit judgemental at the very least, and I can not say Anarchangel has mellowed. Collect ( talk) 21:44, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Revan was previously blocked for personal attacks and uncivil behavior. [39] When his block ended, we was instructed to stay away from me. [40] We had interacted almost exclusively through the article on Led Zeppelin. After his block expired, he came back to the Led Zeppelin board and continued to levy personal attacks against me (like calling me biased and a fanboy, among others). [41] I decided to try and wait him out and hope that he would demonstrate some more maturity with his posts. He has not. Most recently, he stated that another editor and I have "no credibility" [42], accuses me of bias [43] and drops an F-bomb while telling me that I am obsessively preaching and condescending [44].
I would merely like the terms of his initial blocking enforced, and have him stay away from me in general. LedRush ( talk) 14:41, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
LedRush has on numerous occasions unfairly accused me of attacking him. You've seen an example here. He has also, after my block, provoked me by bringing up the now dead issue that I was blocked. He has posted on my talk page many times after I've told him explicitly not to post on my talk page. He has erased a post I made on the Led Zeppelin discussion page. And now I log on and see that I'm reported. I've made no attack but merely stated what I observed. I can't adjust my attitude according to everyone's sensibility's fragility. You might want to consider blocking him for a few hours, since I've felt hounded by him, having him over my shoulder every time I write a word here on wikipedia, hounding me even on my talk page after I've, both before and after my block, told him not to do it. I was instructed by a biased admin to "stay away" from LedRush so I don't write on his talk page. But you can see that he feels that the Led Zeppelin article is his backyard that I should stay away from. He's being unreasonable in so many ways. Blocked, warned or not, I feel hounded by this user. Revan ( talk) 00:22, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Edit: An IP address called LedRush a "fanboy". Is he blaming me for attacking him anonymously? Revan ( talk) 00:23, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
I hadn't noticed that before, but Revan is right. It does seem that LedRush is being very liberal in the citations he uses. LedRush did not call him a fanboy, he simply said that fanboys will hypothetically engage in a particular practice. That's not calling him anything and is not a personal attack. Revan did call him biased, however, his reason was that LedRush was, "driven by making Zeppelin look as awesome as possible". That's specifically related to the article and I don't think it constitutes as a personal attack. (As opposed to something like name calling.) LeadRush quoted Revan in citation 52 as saying he had, "no credibility". However, I do not see that anywhere in the citation. In 53 Revan does NOT call LeadRush biased; he points out that others have accused him of that. Again, the cursing is the only thing that I find inappropriate.
One of LeadRush's biggest arguments is that Revan was blocked and instructed to "stay away" from Revan. However, in checking edit histories I noticed something interesting. Revan was indeed blocked on March 4th, specifically for edits made to Judas Priest and LeadRush's talk page. After March 4th, however, Revan never again edits LeadRush's talk page. LeadRush, on the other hand, has edited Revan's talk several times since that block (March 24th, 26th, 27th, 28th, and April 19th to be exact). I bring this up because LeadRush has clearly interpreted the instruction for Revan to "stay away" from him to mean that they should not even edit the same pages. (This is obvious from this very page where he says Revan was instructed to stay away, but then says that Revan returned to Led Zeppelin, implying that by continuing to edit Led Zeppelin Revan was violating the "stay away" order). However, if that's how LeadRush interprets the order, then why does he continue to edit Revan's talk page? By LeadRush's own standard Revan would not be allowed to reply on his own page, lest he violate "staying away". Should Revan stop using his own page to ensure he won't run into LeadRush? Obviously, LeadRush is using a double standard (criticizing Revan for editing the Led Zeppelin page while at the same time intentionally seeking Revan out to edit his page).
Thus, given the frivolous citations brought up by LeadRush (except for the swearing) and the ridiculous double standard being employed, it seems to me Revan is being unfairly lampooned. Ultimahero ( talk) 01:23, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
1. No, he is not. You are inferring that he is speaking about you, but he does not call you that. The obvious subject of his statement is the average reader. You shouldn't mix contexts, infer, and assume bad faith.
2. No, it is not. Saying someone is biased is not a personal attack. I can say you are biased in this discussion because it has affected you. Does that mean I am attacking you personally? No, it simply means that it will be very difficult for you to objective, or that you have not shown objectivity. It is addressing your actions toward the article, not you as a person.
3. If they were on the Zeppelin page, you could have simply told him there. No need to go to his page.
4. According to what you linked to, he was blocked for editing Judas Priest and your page, not Zeppelin. That's what the blocking admin cited. If you say he sought you out to harass you then prove it. Link to it, don't just assert it. My point was that you clearly interpret "stay away" as not to edit the pages you frequent. So why do you go to his page intentionally? Again, you could simply warn him at the Zeppelin page. But no, you make the effort to tell him on his talk page, even though by the standard you established he shouldn't even be able to respond or else he wouldn't be staying away. And he did not "go back to the very same article on which he levied many personal attacks which led to his block" because Zeppelin was no cited by the blocking admin.
5. I don't see how it's a personal attack. It's about your edit history and your ability to fairly interact with the articles. It's not about you as a person.
You have not demonstrated that his calling you biased in unsubstantiated. All you have shown is that he called you biased. Prove he's wrong. Even if he is, though, it's not a personal attack because it is not about you as a person. I don't think you understand what personal attacks are. He did not call you a fanboy; you're assuming bad faith. It's not a personal attack to say someone lacks credibility because it's not about them as a person. How did he give you advice for your real life? I don't see that anywhere in that last link. Are you talking about this: "Of course, having endless discussions about some mere sub-genres in a box is also ridiculous when taking a step back and reflecting"? Because that would seem to apply to him as well since you're both discussing it. I think you have a persecution complex. You have not shown anything that constitutes as "personal attacks". Ultimahero ( talk) 03:45, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
When an admin answers in this way: "After your block expires, I suggest you make it a point to forget LedRush even exists", after I fairly tried to defend myself against the block, I call that admin biased. Not objective. Perhaps that word isn't such an insult you believe it to be. This report didn't really do what you wanted it to. But I'll remember to revise what I write before I post in order to avoid the f-word as much as possible. Revan ( talk) 18:34, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
LedRush: First of all, he did not call you a fanboy, and you have to assume bad faith to sustain that he did. I explained that clearly in my last post and you completely ignored it. Secondly, calling someone biased or saying they don't hold credibility are not personal attacks. A bias is not saying that you are dumb or anything of the sort; it's simply saying that you're edits are not being objective. It's not personal because it addresses the content of the article. If I wrote,"Clearly, Led Zeppelin is the worst band in the history of the universe", then by the standard you are putting forward you could not call me biased because you would be attacking me personally, even though the hypothetical edit clearly would be biased. You standard is ridiculous. Claiming the bias is influencing edits is not an attack on the person. Again, saying you're biased in regards to this issue would be be very true and is not an attack on you. Also, I asked you before how he gave you personal advice, and you clearly avoided that as well. When you make claims, I challenge them, and then you ignore the challenge and simply repeat the claim, then it doesn't reflect well on you. (And I've said several times that the cursing was clearly inappropriate.)
You say that calling someone biased is uncivil. Perhaps it could be, if it was an unfair accusation. However, you missed my entire argument when you said this: "Also, you're claim that I need to prove past harassment is odd." But that's not what I said. I never said that you need to prove harassment in the past because I know he was blocked. What I actually said was this: "You have not demonstrated that his calling you biased is unsubstantiated. All you have shown is that he called you biased. Prove he's wrong." Don't prove harassment, prove his claims of bias are, as you stated, "without substantiation". So far all you've done is come here and say, "He called me biased, he needs to be punished". If you are making fair, constructive edits and he calls you biased then that would be uncivil. But you have to prove it. You can't simply throw out the claim.
I would agree that the admin was biased, or at the completely overstepped his bounds. Telling Revan not to go to you're talk page is one thing, but to say "forget he exists" would mean, among other things, ignoring you entirely, even on matters of productive conversation. It would mean that by definition he couldn't respond to you if you post on his talk page. After all, if he's to view you as not existing, then how can he answer you posts? So I do think that admin went to far. Simply telling him to not post on your page would suffice.
I'm not "fixated" on you posting on his page, I simply believe it's hypocritical on your part. You act as though you are the victim of abuse; that Revan has maliciously sought you out, even after his block, to harass you. But what I see is that after being blocked Revan never again posted on your page. You, on the other hand, have frequently and intentionally sought HIM out. I don't find that fair. If you want him to "stay away" yet you continue to frequent his page? That makes no sense. Ultimahero ( talk) 19:14, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
I have to disagree with Ultimahero, here, on at least two points. First, on reading the "fanboys" comment, it seems pretty clear to me that was aimed at LedRush, while trying to skate under the radar. I think it qualifies as uncivil. Second, on the bias issue, my read of Ultimahero's opinion on this is that LedRush is biased in the conflict between himself and Revan, because LedRush is affected by the conflict, so Revan saying he is biased is okay. If that were how Revan was calling him biased, I would agree with Ultimahero, but that is not how Revan was leveling the accusation of bias. He specifically said that LedRush was biased about "trying to make Led Zepplin as awesome as possible" - basically accusing LedRush of not having a neutral point of view on Led Zepplin at all. That is uncivil. And overall, I simply don't swallow the defense of "I'm not calling you [a fanboy, biased, without credibility], I am just pointing out that others are have called you that." To me that is trying to game the system, trying to get away with making an uncivil comment by saying you're just mentioning that others have said it. It's clear his intent was to level that accusation at him, and that is the same thing as saying it yourself. Normally, such behavior would not (imo) merit needing to officially warn someone here, but when Revan has just come off a block for similar (though higher magnitude) behavior, it's clear the block did not help him back up and cool off and reevaluate his behavior. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 20:31, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
I don't think that there is anything wrong with saying someone is biased on an issue. As I said above, if I wrote, "Led Zeppelin is the greatest band ever", that would obviously be biased. I don't think it would be wrong for someone to say, "You're clearly biased." I don't see that as uncivil. My point was that LedRush needs to prove that the "bias" claim was untrue. All he has done is prove that he was called biased, but as I said, I don't see a problem with that in and of itself. To bring this up here would put the burden of proof on LedRush to back up his claim.
And the "fanboy" comment was about the average reader of the article. It's possible that it was an under the radar attack, but you have to assume bad faith to substantiate that.
Finally, Revan is not commenting on LedRush's page. He is not seeking LedRush out, so it's unfair to say to say that Revan wasn't changed by the block. Revan was banned for attacking LedRush on his page, and he has since then not commented on LedRush a single time. Ultimahero ( talk) 22:24, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the understanding, Ultimahero. Sometimes, administrative back-up is needed in order to prove a point. The fan boy comment is closer to a fact than an "under the radar" insult; I was not in any way directing it towards LedRush. I was merely stating an example in direct relation to the article. You'd have to assume really bad faith (making you biased) in order believe that it was directed to a specific person, and on top of it, it's not really possible to prove, either. It surprises me that another admin really interprets this as an insult. But no, it was not in any way directed to LedRush. That this was one of his main points only enforces my opinion that he's hounding me. I'm not an absolutist like the biased admin who instructed me to erase some of my own memories, but I don't want him writing on my talk page unnecessarily, provoking me by reminding me of my recent block, accusing me of attacking him when I'm not, or reporting me when he shouldn't. Revan ( talk) 23:08, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying that, but that doesn't change the fact that you're being unreasonable. Both I and Ultimahero have explained why. Revan ( talk) 00:10, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
Of course, Revan. This is silly. Mmyers1976: You didn't address my example. I wrote, "I don't think that there is anything wrong with saying someone is biased on an issue. As I said above, if I wrote, "Led Zeppelin is the greatest band ever", that would obviously be biased. I don't think it would be wrong for someone to say, "You're clearly biased." I don't see that as uncivil." In that example, would it be fair to say someone is biased? If not, then how do make corrections? You could say the edits are biased, but it seems superficial to me to try and distinguish between incredibly biased edits and a biased editor. If an editor continues to make biased edits then it seems fair to conclude he is, in fact, biased. Again, the only way to solve that problem would be for LedRush to prove he is not biased (And again, he is making accusations here so the burden of proof is on him) and thus prove the Revan is attacking him unfairly. But if he cannot, or refusing to, then there is no grounds to say that Revan is not acting proper.
Assuming good faith doesn't mean that you don't point out bias. Assuming good faith would mean not assuming another editor is attacking you. Like, oh, i don't know.... when an editor is talking about the average person that comes along to read Wikipedia as opposed to assuming that he secretly means you personally. "Taken in isolation, it would not be the worst thing in the world, but given other comments and Revan's recent history with LedRush, that is all reasonable enough evidence that at least some of that bad faith was meant for LedRush." So, even though he didn't actually say anything about LedRush we're just going to assume he was insulting him because they've had problems before? Sir, THAT'S assuming bad faith. The only one who knows his intentions is Revan, and unless he directly calls LedRush something then you can't attribute malicious intent to him. Ultimahero ( talk) 23:23, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Yes, sir, the burden of proof is on LedRush. Revan must demonstrate bias in his conversation, but not here. LedRush is making accusations here. It is LedRush's responsibility to link us to the appropriate areas so we can see what's going on. If LedRush just came and said, "Revan is being mean", with no examples to back it up, we would all scoff at the lack of evidence. So LedRush is obligated to provide examples of everything he says. It can't be unsubstantiated. So LedRush must link us to his arguments and demonstrate that he was not biased. That is the only way to show that Revan was, in fact, wrong in saying such things.
As to my example, you completely missed the point. It was intentionally outrageous. That's the whole idea. I'm trying to demonstrate that some edits are ridiculously biased and the only way to characterize them is as "biased'. If an editor continues to demonstrate such behavior then what other conclusions can be reached other than that he is, in fact, biased? And it would not be Revans responsibility to demonstrate here that this was the case, because he did not bring this issue to this page. LedRush did so he must show us where the evidence lies.
Again, it's superficial to distinguish between continually biased edits and a biased editor. It's similar to vandalism: If an editor continues to vandalize, we don't say, "Well, he's not a vandal, just his edits are". That would be ridiculous. We recognize that such behavior is definitional to the person's intent. We call that person a vandal (not bothering to worry about his feelings) and he is dealt with. Similarly, if an editor continually pushes a biased point of view, even after corrected several times, then what else re we to conclude than that he is trying to insert a particular viewpoint into the article? He is biased if he refuses to stop making biased edits. (Also, "address the edit, not the person" doesn't really work here. If you are calling the edit something negative, whether it be biased, stupid, etc., how does that NOT reflect on the editor? Would it be appropriate to say an edit is "stupid"? "I didn't say YOU were stupid, just that what you think and said are stupid." I just bring this up to say that in this context it seems worthless to try and distinguish between the editor and his edits because on necessarily reflects the other.)
Finally, you last comment is, quite frankly, silly. If an editor continually threw direct insults at another editor then that's one thing. It's clear that he has no intent on being civil. The point of the policy is if an editor is continually called direct names, like an idiot, he doesn't have to put up with it. But the policy DOES NOT mean that a prior history allows one editor to take another editors words and interpret them any way he likes regardless of context. Please, I would love for you to show me the policy that says, "If you've had problems with an editor in the past, then go ahead and take all his words as insults, even if he isn't talking about you. You no longer have to be objective." That's what you're arguing. That LedRush can take any comment, regardless of who is actually being addressed, and insert himself into it because he and Revan have had problems in the past. That is absolutely assuming bad faith. And your last statement is just a hodgepodge of all the accusations against Revan with all context thrown out. Your attempting to paint a worse picture than what actually exists. That's why we deal with each statement one at a time, IN THEIR OWN CONTEXT, to avoid the type of rhetoric you just exhibited.
I'm not saying that Revan has been perfect. However, it's unfair to say everything is on him. After his block he never went back and edited LedRush's page again. By all fair standards he has "stayed away"; he has not intentionally sought LedRush out. LedRush, on the other hand, continues to post on Revan's page. LedRush will go to Revan and say, "How come you aren't staying away from me?" It's hard to not see this as instigating on LedRush's part, at least to a certain degree. Surely we don't take the block to mean "LedRush and Revan can never edit the same page again". Even if Revan left the Zeppelin page and stared editing elsewhere, would he be forced to leave again if LedRush showed up? Mmyers1976, you must address this point because this is central. Does Revan's block mean that he and LedRush can no longer work on the same page? If not, then is it really fair of LedRush to go to Revan and accuse him of "not staying away"? Wouldn't that be instigating? Ultimahero ( talk) 18:48, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
This discussion has lead to the following: LedRush defends himself instead of I, which ought to be the case here, since he reported me. The accusations he made of me are farfetched, and it either ends with nothing, or with LedRush getting a warning for wrongfully accusing me several times and for hounding and provoking me. I have already said that I will try not to use the f-word, which was the one thing third parties found problematic. Revan ( talk) 00:19, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
You misunderstood. I meant exactly what you said: I ought to defend myself because I was reported, but I pointed out that this discussion has lead to the contrary, which only shows how inappropriate his reporting me is. Revan ( talk) 18:27, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
You are a lot of "maybes" and speculations, Mmyers. You (and LedRush) dismiss logic in preference of a more farfetched and defaming explanation, a result of bad faith. I'll say it again, your theories and speculations and "maybes" are farfetched. Your theories are farfetched and less logical. Revan ( talk) 00:04, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Additionally, this whole thing is opinions against each other, yours and LedRush's being more farfetched. You're talking about a "pattern of behavior" as proof that what I write is hidden insults. This pattern of behavior excuses other users' bad faith. I already explained that the fan boy comment didn't have anything to do with LedRush, but that you both keep insisting that it is an insult is like calling me a liar and defaming me, is it not? There is also no point in arguing against Ultimahero's very appropriate logical observation that calling the fan boy an insult is assuming very bad faith. But hey, my "pattern of behavior" excuses that. Let's hope you come across many patterns similar to mine. Simultaneously, LedRush also has a pattern, which is more like hounding: he got me blocked for writing on his talk page, yet he kept writing on mine multiple times; he provoked me several times by reminding me of my block when responding to me on the Led Zeppelin talk page, what I wrote having nothing to do with the recent block. That is pure provoking. I had even explicitly told him to drop the dead issue.
And I agree with Ultimahero that LedRush should prove that he wasn't biased, which he can't, because I based that comment on concrete posts he made and not on my general impression of him. And it's not an insult either, that's reading in too much in wikipedia policy, which is what LedRush has done by accusing me all to easily of attacking him.
We all know I won't get blocked by this. For all I know, it's LedRush who should receive a warning or 24 h block for the reasons I've stated. You can see on my talk page that I have considered reporting him. Revan ( talk) 18:38, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
Indeed, very farfetched, and not my opinion because of any childish side-choosing mentality you accused me of having, Mmyers1976. On top of it, you generalize my behavior as "guys like you" and employ something that looks like wishful thinking, "end up getting blocked another time" and accuse me of taking no responsibility for my tone when I actually have. It's very clear that you have a negative view of me. It boils down to this: I don't have to defend myself for any of LedRush's accusations; I have, in the beginning of this discussion, said that I will try not to use the f-word.
I consider this report of me a giant part of LedRush's hounding of me. If he continues, I will consider reporting him. A last question, to you two, even though I assume you will be light on him, and I don't mind if you are: do you think his hounding warrants a warning? Revan ( talk) 20:19, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I've noticed that. Revan ( talk) 01:48, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
By the way, I find this to be an incredibly telling statement by LedRush: "My goodness. Thank you for that incredibly gracious response. I often act like a magnifying mirror in conversations, reflecting either kindness or incivility back at the people with whom I communicate. It is not such a bad thing to be reminded to be more civil. I will take your advice regarding Revan and appreciate your thoughtful responses to my issues.LedRush (talk) 02:37, 23 March 2011 (UTC)". This was posted on MLauba's talk page. Ultimahero ( talk) 20:29, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
Here is a little algebraic proof. Revan's comment to LedRush is: "It's made clear that you're biased and driven by making Zeppelin look as awesome as possible." Then just a few lines later, he says: "And naturally, fan boys and stupid journalists will choose whatever makes Zeppelin look the bigger and the better."
So, in Revan's eyes:
LedRush = driven by making Zeppelin look as awesome as possible
and
Fanboys = choose whatever makes Zeppelin look the bigger and better
"driven by making zeppelin look as awesome as possible" and "chooce whatever makes Zeppelin look the bigger and better" are equivalent figures, so
driven by making Zeppelin look as awesome as possible = choose whatever makes Zeppelin look the bigger and better
Which means
LedRush = Fanboys
Farfetched indeed. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 01:45, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Context, context, context. Even if he said the same about both of them, they were in different contexts. It's still bad faith to assume that he was intentionally trying to call LedRush a fanboy. Ultimahero ( talk) 06:11, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Not it's absolutely not narrow. But your algebra lesson is extremely ridiculous and FARFECTHED and a result of BAD FAITH. Here's another equation for you: I was referring to the average reader who might take wikipedia's word too much for granted. But I'm very very aware of the fact that LedRush is better oriented with wikipedia than the average reader, so therefore he isn't an average reader, hence not one of the fan boys who might interpret wikipedia information as "fact" all too easily. I've already said that the comment wasn't about LedRush, but you keep implying that it is. You're trying to justify misinterpretation as a result of bad faith. My explanation is less farfetched than yours, truer, and less ridiculous.
LedRush = not the average wikipedia reader who takes wikipedia's word for granted and uses it as a source in articles or academic papers.
LedRush = not fan boy according to the fan boy comment.
On the other hand, LedRush invented ridiculous theories in an attempt to justify a known vandalism that occurred on the Zeppelin article in 2005. The vandalism was left unchanged for a while, which led to Reliable Sources quoting it (I refer to them as "stupid journalists" in my fan boy comment). And instead of accepting the logical and known fact that the vandalism caused that made up fact, and instead of acknowledging that no reliable sources state the same fact before the vandalism occurred, he makes up ridiculous theories in order to justify the absurd and false fact, just so it can stay in the article and make Led Zeppelin look bigger and more awesome than they would if the article only stated the real fact. That is why I called him biased (as you see, Mmyers, this is not very far from calling Led Zeppelin "the best band in the world"), and it can't be more substantiated and less of an insult. The issue is whether Led Zeppelin have sold 300 million albums (the false number) or 200 million albums (the better sourced and more likely number). You can see his theory in his first post in this discussion. It was called "inconceivable" by respected user Pirizcki, and LedRush avoided acknowledging the simple question: are there any sources claiming 300 million before the time of the vandalism? LedRush was clearly driven as a fan, not a neutral editor, to make Led Zeppelin look as awesome as possible. Less than this would qualify as clear bias. Hence, my comment being substantiated and not a "you're biased because you smell" kind of thing.
His theory is in his first post of this discussion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Led_Zeppelin/Archive_7#300_million Revan ( talk) 14:27, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Your under the radar insults are dearly noted. Nice try reporting me, LedRush. Revan ( talk) 15:47, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
And I don't know if you deliberately misspell Ultimahero's nic name or if you've misread it all along, but can you rephrase the sentence where you mention his greatest contribution? I suspect there's a grammatical error that prevents complete understanding.
Also, if you think I have continued my attacks and insults here, your hounding has simultaneously also continued. You keep blaming me all too easily for insulting and attacking, and you will get reported if you continue, at some point. You both engage in pointing out everything outside the context at hand, claiming that what you point at is proof that shows that you're right, which you really aren't... You're just farfetched, taking angry tones too personally. Revan ( talk) 15:55, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Edit: I just saw that you reported Ultimahero, Mmyers76. I wasn't convinced by one word and Ultimahero's response was very concise and with an appropriate length. Revan ( talk) 16:33, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
And yes, LedRush, of course I draw a distinction between the average reader who might not be aware of the possibility that wikipedia articles can include vandalism and false facts, and a well oriented wikipedia editor who knows more about how wikipedia works, of course I do, Even if you and the average Led Zeppelin fan (not well oriented with wikipedia) support the same number in this case. Why not draw a distinction when the means differ and the goal is the same? One takes wikipedia information for granted, and another tries to justify it with implausible theories. Which is worse? Revan ( talk) 16:38, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
I have a question about collapsing another user's comments. The specific situation is near the bottom of Wikipedia:Pending changes/Request for Comment February 2011, section "Evidence that not ending the trial has harmed Wikipedia" but I am looking for general guidance and a pointer the the right guideline or policy.
(Should this question be asked somewhere else? Perhaps the Village Pump?)
The situation is this:
User A posts a somewhat lengthy (37 lines on my monitor) argument.
User B put tags around it collapsing it.
User A revert the tags, asks User B to not collapse his comment.
User B reverts, putting the tags back, and tells User A not to revert.
User A, not wanting to edit war, leaves it collapsed and asks WA what to do. Is it proper to collapse another editor's comments when he has expressly asked you not to do so? Guy Macon ( talk) 17:43, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
The person who keeps posting the same stuff, loses the argument. Collect ( talk) 21:45, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
Mmyers1976 ( talk) 22:00, 21 April 2011 (UTC) I weighed in on the WQA on Revan as an uninvolved editor. I don't listen to Led Zeppelin, don't edit on any of the pages in question, and have never had an interaction of any kind with either editor. I gave my opinion. Ultimahero doesn't seem content to just give his opinion, he must browbeat and pick apart the opinion of any other uninvolved editor who takes a different opinion. His tone has been extremely condescending. Actually, I call him an uninvolved editor, but I cannot be sure if he is uninvolved or if he actually has some previous involvement or affilation, as his badgering of others as he wikilawyers on behalf of Revan certainly seems very partisan to me. I don't mind if someone starts off their opinion on the case by "i don't agree with (other user), here is my take on it" (I do it too), but I do think that feeling the need to offer a rebuttal to every post that takes a different position from yours derails the discussion. It certainly did in this case. The WQA should have been about mediating the conflict between Revan and LedRush, and instead a lot of it became a conflict between Ultimahero and me, when comments should have been directed at Revan and LedRush. I for my part accept my responsibility for allowing him to drag me into this, but Ultimahero calling the opinions of uninvolved editors who have volunteered their time to help out "silly", "farfetched", accusing them of bad faith, putting words in their mouths to mischaracterize their positions, calling them out for not responding to his offtopic scenarios that he latter admits were "intentionally outrageous" has a chilling effect on these kinds of discussions and will discourage uninvolved editors from volunteering their time. This is all very uncivil behavior, and when an uninvolved editor responds to a WQA alert, he should be trying to model the behavior that users failed to show in the discussion leading to the alert. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 22:00, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
I do not know either editor, and do not particulary care about Led Zeppelin. So I am uninvolved just as much as Mmyers1976, as my edit history will confirm. I gave an opinion, just like Mmyers1976. Yes, I do believe Revan was correct in this particular instance. That's what I think and I am free to have such an opinion.
Mmyers1976: "I gave my opinion. Ultimahero doesn't seem content to just give his opinion, he must browbeat and pick apart the opinion of any other uninvolved editor who takes a different opinion." I'm not sure how I browbeat anyone. According to dictionary.com, browbeat means to "be bossy towards" or to "discourage or frighten with threats or a domineering manner; intimidate". I don't see how I was could be characterized as bossy, because I don't believe I made any demands or told anyone what to do. And I certainly never threatened anyone. So I don't see how I did any of that. I simply stated what I thought, and was quite bold in stating it. But I don't see how that could be classified as bossy or threatening. I did attempt to "pick apart the opinion of any other uninvolved editor who takes a different opinion". I'm not sure what could possibly be wrong with that, though. If you offer an opinion, would you rather have me selectively take out single statements (and thus risk pulling them out of context), or thoroughly work through your entire statement, addressing things point by point? Maybe Mmyers1976 and I are just completely different people but I consider it to be respectful to interact with all of what was said by someone who disagrees.
"His tone has been extremely condescending." The problem with making arguments about tone is that A) It's all extremely subjective to begin with, and B) It's made even more difficult because you're attempting to gauge tone from written text. I perceived things he said to be condescending, as well, but I would think that in general it's good faith to assume the person isn't trying to be rude. That's why I never made accusations of "tone".
"Actually, I call him an uninvolved editor, but I cannot be sure if he is uninvolved or if he actually has some previous involvement or affilation, as his badgering of others as he wikilawyers on behalf of Revan certainly seems very partisan to me." Like I said before, I simply feel Revan is being wrongly accused. That's all. Speculating on my motivations like this seems as though it might be a violation of assuming good faith.
"I don't mind if someone starts off their opinion on the case by "i don't agree with (other user), here is my take on it" (I do it too), but I do think that feeling the need to offer a rebuttal to every post that takes a different position from yours derails the discussion." Why? How could thoroughly discussing every point derail the discussion? Again, is Mmyers1976 suggesting that I ignore large parts of his response? Perhaps addressing everything can be a hassle because it takes so long, but neither of us is compelled or obligated to be on this page. At any time we could say, "Eh, this is taking too long. Forget it". So I don't see the problem.
"The WQA should have been about mediating the conflict between Revan and LedRush, and instead a lot of it became a conflict between Ultimahero and me, when comments should have been directed at Revan and LedRush." It's true that we dominated the conversation, but it was always about them and their conflict. It was never personal between us (Until now, I suppose). So if was never off topic, then what's the problem.
"I for my part accept my responsibility for allowing him to drag me into this, but Ultimahero calling the opinions of uninvolved editors who have volunteered their time to help out "silly", "farfetched", accusing them of bad faith, putting words in their mouths to mischaracterize their positions, calling them out for not responding to his offtopic scenarios that he latter admits were "intentionally outrageous" has a chilling effect on these kinds of discussions and will discourage uninvolved editors from volunteering their time." First, it seems odd that Mmyers1976 would claim responsibility and then in the same sentence blame me by saying that I "dragged him into this". Again, how did I drag him? Was he obligated to respond? No. He freely chose to, so I don't think I dragged (which implies I forced) him anywhere.
Next, I do no appreciate Mmyers1976 cutting up my sentences and throwing them together like this. All of those (silly, farfetched, etc.) were in different contexts and by putting them in one string like this is to ignore context and imply that I said them as insults, which is not true. First, to say "opinions of uninvolved editors" is misleading because while I did talk to multiple editors in the above post, all the things cited were in my discussion with Mmyers1976 specifically. So to use plural pronouns implies I was repeatedly having problems with lots of different people, which simply is not the case.
Secondly, I understood (and still do understand) Mmyers1976 to have been saying that if two editors have had problems in the past, then one editor no longer has to assume good faith and can take whatever the other says and insert himself into the statement, thus allowing the editor to perceive insults when he was not even being discussed. I said that comment was silly. (I would like to point out that Mmyers1976 repeatedly stressed Wikipedia policy to address the edits and not the editor. He specifically said, " Maybe LedRush is biased, maybe he isn’t but had Revan commented on the edits, not the editor, we wouldn’t be here today." The context was calling an editor biased, so it seems Mmyers1976 is saying that it's okay to call edits biased as long as you don't call the editor biased. Yet here, even though I specifically said the COMMENT was silly, Mmyers1976 seems to think I am insulting him.) I did not call him silly, and I think my response is fair. If Mmyers1976 believes that I misunderstood his point that's fine but I don't see the problem with calling an extreme opinion (at least extreme as I perceived it) silly. I'm talking about someone's argument, not them as a person, so what's the problem?
Thirdly, Mmyers1976 had been taking a comment by Revan (the comment was, "My point is, this balanced estimation will leave readers to choose between the two figures in whatever way they seem fit. And naturally, fan boys and stupid journalists will choose whatever makes Zeppelin look the bigger and the better") which was clearly about the average reader and insisted that it was a veiled shot at LedRush. I said, "They are farfetched. The fanboys comment is inexcusable due to the context. It is obviously farfetched to take as an insult something that isn't even about you." Again, I'm clearly commenting on the argument, not the person. And this is also where the "bad faith" remark comes in, because earlier I had pointed out that one had to assume bad faith to interpret something as an insult that was referring to someone else. I said, " So, even though he didn't actually say anything about LedRush we're just going to assume he was insulting him because they've had problems before? Sir, THAT'S assuming bad faith. The only one who knows his intentions is Revan, and unless he directly calls LedRush something then you can't attribute malicious intent to him." I think it's bad faith to assume that someone is probably trying to insult you when they aren't even discussing you.
Fourth, Mmyers1976 says I was "putting words in their mouths to mischaracterize their positions". I'm not sure what he's talking about here, because he doesn't give an example of me "putting words in his mouth", but I feel the second part of the sentence is even more telling. He says the purpose of putting words in his mouth is to "mischaracterize their positions". So apparently Mmyers1976 believes that my intention was to purposefully mis-characterize him. He didn't establish that I actually did put words in his mouth, but for the sake of argument let's assume I did. Isn't it possible that I just misunderstood what he was saying? But no, Mmyers1976 assigns a negative motivation to me, namely, to "mischaracterize their positions". Clearly this is an assumption of bad faith.
Fifth, he says I was, "calling them out for not responding to his offtopic scenarios that he latter admits were "intentionally outrageous" has a chilling effect on these kinds of discussions and will discourage uninvolved editors from volunteering their time". The scenario he refers to was not off-topic. He was saying it's never fair to call another editor biased. I responded by giving a scenario that was obviously biased (The example was someone writing, "Clearly, Led Zeppelin is the worst/greatest band ever") in order to point out that some edits are so extreme that they clearly prove the editor to be biased. He did not address this, so I pointed out that he had not answered my argument. He responded by saying, "Did LedRush in fact say anything like "Led Zepplin is the greatest band ever" in ArticleSpace? If not, then your example simply is not worth addressing. Let's not make this about silly hypotheticals, let's keep this about actual comments we can observe in diffs." (Before I go anywhere else, notice that he said my example was "silly", which is the exact same word I used of his comment that he cited as uncivil.) I point out here that I knew LedRush had not said anything like this, and I didn't accuse him of doing so. I responded to Mmyers1976 by saying, "As to my example, you completely missed the point. It was intentionally outrageous. That's the whole idea. I'm trying to demonstrate that some edits are ridiculously biased and the only way to characterize them is as "biased'." Mmyers1976 never addressed my example again until bringing it up here. I think it's worth noting HOW he address it. He characterizes it as "off-topic", which I "[admitted was] "intentionally outrageous". This, of course, is an unfair characterization. They were on topic, and the example was extreme to prove a fair point. I believe by phrasing it the way he does Mmyers1976 presents an unfair picture of what I said.
Lastly, Mmyers1976 says, "This is all very uncivil behavior, and when an uninvolved editor responds to a WQA alert, he should be trying to model the behavior that users failed to show in the discussion leading to the alert". I don't see how I was uncivil. All of my "controversial" comments were directed towards arguments, never people. So I will allow the reader to determine who, if anyone, has acted with a lack of civility. Thank you. Ultimahero ( talk) 00:05, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Ultimahero gives an 1,800+ word response to a a 334 word report. If anyone needed evidence of my claim that his comments derail a WQA discussion, this is it. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 01:35, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Yes, my response is certainly long. But that's because I thoroughly went and responded line by line, quoting Mmyers1976 and his accusations, and offering a direct response. That's not to mention the fact that I had to give context, through direct quotes, of all the accusations made against me because Mmyers1976's original post offered none. I know it can be timely to go through all of this. However, Mmyers1976 did not respond to a single point that I made. So, I will ask anyone who reads this thread, which is preferable: A)Someone who takes a long time, but responds to everything you have said, or B) Someone who offers very short answers but ignores most if not all of your carefully worded response. Let the reader decide.
And Mmyers1976, please answer this one question: Are you saying you would prefer it if I ignored larger portions of what you write and instead selectively picked and chose whatever seems favorable to me? Ultimahero ( talk) 06:20, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
This was my response to Keithbob:
"I disagree with Keithbob's analysis. He used the quote, "Everything you're talking about is original research, and not very believable, either" to substantiate a personal comment by LedRush. But I fail to see how this is personal. Telling someone that they're inserting original research is not personal; it's directly addressing the information being presented. At the same time, though, I don't agree with all the examples LedRush posted. Saying someone is biased is not a personal attack; it would be perfectly true and legitimate for me to say that LedRush is biased in this dispute since it has affected him. There is no personal attack there. Also, saying that someone has no credibility is not necessarily a personal attack, either. The reason for lack of credibility would determine if it's personal. If he said you had no credibility because you smelled, then that's personal because it's being based on a personal reason. However, if a person vandalized a page repeatedly then they could be said to have no credibility and that would be perfectly fair and on-topic. So we need more context to establish what whether it was proper or not. But the swearing by Revan is surely out of line.Ultimahero (talk) 17:16, 19 April 2011 (UTC)"
I fail to see how that's excessive. Ultimahero ( talk) 18:46, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Admin, just go ahead and close this one as unresolved, no action, whatever you want to call it, I don't care. I just don't enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing as much as some here. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 19:25, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Some days ago I had a case here with ClaudioSantos [49] because of his persistent breaches of wikiquette. Once I thought it was more or less settled, I just left it and forgot about it.
However, now I see he has changed his talk page in a spurious and hostile way, posting a copy of the original Wikiquette Alerts thread and tagging it as:
"Some off-topic nonsense, summary: wikipedians have revealed in wikipedia SPK-patient's names, professions, pictures, etc. against their will and/or linked their data to hostile(hostile), mendacious(false), spurious(non-genuine) chatter against them and against SPK. The SPK has not revealed nor published some wikipedians' names, professions, pictures, etc. which has been already revealed by the own wikipedians to anyone all around the WEB included the own wikipedia."
I strongly believe this is yet another proof that Claudio doesn't care at all about wikiquette and building an encyclopedia, and that he's just trying to game the system once again. Sabbut ( talk) 09:29, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Recently appearing on this page was a WQA filed by another editor regarding personal attacks by Brian Josephson at Talk:Energy Catalyzer. (For context, the Energy Catalyzer is a putative cold fusion invention. The inventor has made a number of announcements about his device and its possible commercialization over the last few months. There has been extensive and sometimes heated discussion on the article talk page about the quality, independence, and reliability of sources used in the article, as well as the appropriate interpretation and weighting of those sources in the article.)
Over the last day or two, Brian Josephson has suggested that a number of established Wikipedia editors (including myself and at least one other Wikipedia administrator) are part of a "squad" of editors, using abusive and disruptive editing approaches, potentially as part of a secret conspiracy by 'hot' (or 'conventional') fusion researchers threatened by the Energy Catalyzer and similar cold fusion devices.
He has continued to imply a conspiracy against him, with the absurd reasoning
In response to specific requests that he explain who he believed had a conflict of interest, he declared
He just doesn't seem to get that this sort of thing poisons any chance of constructive collaboration. He's not going to listen to me; I'm hoping that an independent voice might persuade him that casting these sorts of aspersions on the ethics of good-faith editors just isn't the Done Thing. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 17:15, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
I was hoping someone could help the author of this drive-by talk-page vandalism out with Wikipedia's civility policy. 24.177.120.138 ( talk) 06:21, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This stems from a series of thirteen deletions for electronics component articles. A convenient list is here. The disparaging comments are Wtshymanski's.
These were PROD'ed, rejected, than AfD'ed. For the purpose of WQA it's not just the behaviour to this point that is at issue, but behaviour since. This has been an unusually ill-tempered (and single-handedly so) set of AfDs with a tenacious amount of flogging a dead horse afterwards.
The basic premise behind these deletions is that, "parts list articles are not notable". These components are all real electronic components, with a huge range of references behind them from any number of standard parts handboooks. Yet this does not, allegedly, confer notability. The problem is some variant of WP:MILL: simply existing and being recorded as such is not notable, in the way that a phone number is not notable, despite being well catalogued. Only components with some real claim to distinctive novelty could be said to be "noteworthy", and thus considered WP:Notable.
The strange part is that no-one, even at the AfDs, seems to disagree with this principle. The dissent is that these components are, by and large, reckoned to be that handful of components that do meet the more stringent criteria for being noteworthy.
Most of the debate seemed to take place on this AfD, the rest being somewhat repetitive.
These in turn gave rise to a centralised discussion
Behaviour during this AfD was far from ideal. In particular, I don't believe that AGF extends to comparing other editors to a psychotic murderer.
Some rare support:
The AfDs have now mostly closed as keeps. There is some support for deleting a couple where it's agreed that they are indeed just "parts list" items.
So far, process seems to have worked just as it ought and an excess of zeal by one editor has been compensated for. However behaviour since really is getting beyond a joke. They seem incapbable of making any comment without a sarcastic edit summary, they refuse to recognise that there is any other valid viewpoint:
Shortly after one AfD closed as keep, they re-tagged it for notability - yet isn't this what was just discussed?
This is an editor who refuses to respect consensus, or that he might be "right yet outvoted", and that in the interests of the encyclopedia it's time to put the stick down and leave the horse be.
This is not the working atmosphere we're supposed to have to put up with. This editor's behaviour is intolerable. Andy Dingley ( talk) 21:06, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
I have been concerned about the pattern of Wtshymanski's edits and talk page comments ever since I first saw the behavior pattern on List of 7400 series integrated circuits. There appears to be on ongoing pattern WP:OWNERSHIP and WP:CIVIL problems. Especially troubling was his response when I expressed the above concerns on his talk page: "And yet, every time someone lists me at WqA, or ANI, it peters out due to lack of interest." [54]
Also see:
Search Wikiquette alerts:Wtshymanski
User:Wtshymanski/parts
Special:Contributions/Wtshymanski
User:Wtshymanski/Griping
Search Administrators' noticeboard: Wtshymanski
Guy Macon (
talk)
11:33, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
UPDATE: I recently decided to bookmark Wtshymanski's contributions page and review them every so often. This was not to stalk or harass, but because he is a rare combination of (1) Being interested in the same sort of technology articles I am - I already run into him again and again as I edit. (2) Personally likable (you know how some people just annoy you? For me, he is the opposite.) (3) Makes many edits and comments I strongly disagree with. (4) Makes many edits and comments I strongly agree with. (5) Rock solid technical contributions.
My observation from this is that he is following Wikipedia policies and guidelines a lot better, and that he appears to respond well to criticism or warnings that are backed up by citations to policy. There is far less sarcasm and baiting in his talk page and edit comments, and he appears to be rapidly improving in the area of choosing what to nominate for deletion - he has been finding some real stinkers that other editors missed. In my opinion, this is a good example of the old saying "It is easier to teach a smart person to be nice than it is to teach a nice person to be smart."
Because of what I have observed, in my opinion this Wikiquette alert should be closed. If it is closed, I advise any editors who have a problem with him to put a polite warning on his talk page - but please be 100% sure that the warning is valid, and pay attention if he says it isn't, because there is a high probability that he is right. Guy Macon ( talk) 23:11, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
You ever have an editor you really liked but makes you a little embarrassed for having publicly supported him when he turns out to have a tenuous grasp on WP:CIVIL? Yeah, that basically happened to me with this editor. I think his heart is in the right place, but, he's gotten ruder and ruder. That said I can understand some of it. I wish I could assume more good faith, because I understand his frustration. We have WP:GNG but then we establish project essays and sub-categories that seem to disregard WP:RS WP:N WP:V and WP:GNG. It can be frustrating to take clear cases to AfD only to have them defended against all policy by fans. On the other hand he made many mistakes, including many cases of nominating before even a cursory attempt to look for sources (yes most transistors are not notable, but some of the first, most popular, ect. are very notable). I think he needs to be helped and warned because his viewpoint is a valuable one: an editor that favors strong inclusion criteria even within their area of fandom/expertise. HominidMachinae ( talk) 04:30, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
In my opinion, if someone keeps trying SPEEDY before PROD or AFD and keeps getting shot down by the admin who evaluates the speedy, the possibility of forum shopping should be considered. A history of trying to get things deleted any way he can rather than embracing the idea of consensus adds weight to the possibility. Nominated, Declined, AFD.