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This draft is a modified copy of
Love Mocktail 2 except it is for the Telugu language release of the film. I've repaired the attribution but there is no need for a separate article on a different language release. Normally, I would redirect the draft to to the main space article but feel that the disambiguated title is actively misleading as this is a film that was released originally in 2022.
Whpq (
talk)
13:36, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Neutral at this time, pending an explanation from a bona fide editor of either the harm done by it or the value of it - This page only exists because of users diddling with it, rather than allowing it to be abandoned as a draft.
Robert McClenon (
talk)
08:27, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Redirect to
Sergey Neklyudov - Drafts are not deleted because of the existence of an article, but are redirected to the article. The blanking of the page and the incorrect nomination for speedy deletion on 31 December were diddling. If the draft had been left alone, it would have gone away in May.
Robert McClenon (
talk)
15:47, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Everything below this point is old business; the 7-day review period that began 16:06, 25 June 2024 (UTC) ended today on 2 July 2024. Editors may continue to add comments until the discussion is closed but they should keep in mind that the discussion below this marker may be closed at any time without further notice. Discussions that have already been closed will be removed from the page automatically by
Legobot and need no further action.
Comment: I don't see any evidence of malfeasance. This is more of an OCD thing than it is self-promotion or web hosting. Drbogdan should lower his footprint here and just link once to an external webhost instead of using Wikipedia to host it. Problem solved.
Viriditas (
talk)
22:54, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
There's an ANI thread about this user where this and the related user page hosting their dissertation came up. They've refused to move these pages to a more appropriate venue outside Wikipedia. See, for example
this response at the ANI thread. I've made the assumption that it is for self-promotion. But even if it's not, or if there is no "malfeasance', that is irrelevant. It shouldn't be hosted at Wikipedia and they are refusing to move it.
DeCausa (
talk)
23:00, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I think it is relevant that there is no malfeasance. I have worked well with Drbogdan for years, and I have repeatedly defended him in the face of multiple attacks by many other editors making baseless accusations about his motivations. So for me, it is important to state that he has zero bad intentions. He can be stubborn (like anyone else here) so he sometimes needs a push in the right direction. I think moving his dissertation to Wikisource and moving his NYT comments offline are fine. But there's no reason to speculate about his motives beyond that.
Viriditas (
talk)
23:20, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Fair enough. I have no knowledge of him and have never encountered before. If you say this isn't about self-promotion then I withdraw it. However, whatever the motivation, hosting someone's whole 166kb of dissertation is clearly a breach of NOTWEBHOST and we shouldn't be doing it. I have no opinion on moving it to another Wiki.
DeCausa (
talk)
23:26, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I honestly wish we did host more dissertations, as many of them are now falling behind paywalls, and if you aren't part of the university system, you can easily lose access to this kind of research. So I support hosting any and all dissertations on Wikisource.
Viriditas (
talk)
23:27, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep - As OA of this material, no problem whatsoever whatever the final
WP:CONSENSUS of course - my published news comments, unique in nearly always noting a link (or more) to a relevant Wikipedia article (ie,
NYT archive examples:
Comments-1 and
Comments-2) was made, in part, in a kind of Wikipedia outreach effort to help readers who may be entirely unaware of related (and relevant) Wikipedia articles - the published comments material is also presented to provide an additional basis of evaluating my professional background as a Wikipedia editor - as noted (in detail and in context) at
a recent ANI discussion, the material is not in main space - it is in user space instead, and available for those wishing to evaluate my professional background for any of my edits on Wikipedia - as before, such presentations seem to be a worthy way of sharing relevant professional background of editors to other editors (and other Wikipedia readers) - seems if other editors did the same with their professional background, might help a lot imo - nonetheless - as before, if there is
WP:CONSENSUS about this - no problem whatsoever of course - iac - Stay Safe and Healthy !! -
Drbogdan (
talk)
01:06, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete - The reasons why Drbogdan is hosting this material are irrelevant, because it is
web hosting. We should make the
good-faith assumption that he thinks that this is in the best interests of Wikipedia. It should be the opinion of the community that he is honorably mistaken, and that this material is of no (positive or negative) value to the encyclopedia, and it should be deleted as
web hosting.
Robert McClenon (
talk)
01:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete per above. These aren't a listing of him being quoted as an expert in articles (which might be acceptable), they are a directory of his comments in the public comments section on their websit. Many of the comments link back to his Wikipedia profile. Too promotional /
WP:NOTWEBHOST violation.
Walsh90210 (
talk)
04:26, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The link back to the WikiProfile is primarily intended to help readers evaluate the background of the comment author - and not otherwise - wish other comment authors did likewise - might help a lot imo - in any case - Stay Safe and Healthy !! -
Drbogdan (
talk)
09:56, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Oh for gosh sakes. Leave the guy alone. I know that the Wikipedia is not a respecter of persons, but c'mon, get over yourselves. The man is a Grand High Togneme Vicarus. You're not. Talk about "no benefit to Wikipedia", how does harassing a Grand High Togneme Vicarus for stupid stuff that has nothing to do with making content and isn't bothering any one who isn't sniffing around looking for things to be bothered about, how does that confer benefit on the project? Talk about "this is not a social site", if this guy had lots of friends or powerful friends, we probably wouldn't be bothering him... maybe he should have spent more time gossiping and making friends and less time creating content. Maybe you should advise him so. Talk about politics, this guy has been here way longer and done more work on, I don't know, creating content, than most all of you, and this is only being brought up now because people apparently have a different, unrelated beef with him.
We are not prosecuting attorneys whose job is to engineer a conviction someway somehow. Why aren't you going after people with "This user likes cats" userboxes and so on. Can't say, but there's the potential to for a
Wikipedia:Harassment charge for y'all if you can't give a satisfactory answer to "
Why him? Why this? Why now?" and "Are you trying to harass this guy off the project cos you don't like him and can't make a strong enough case to do it properly?" (I'm not planning to do that and I don't think it'd fly, but somebody else could.)
Sure, if this was a new user, it'd be different. Sure, if this was a big problem generally that we are needing to play wack-a-mole with, it'd be different. It's not.
Herostratus (
talk)
17:27, 30 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I take that as a
WP:PA against me as I opened this MfD. How exactly is it harassment? I've never had any contact with this user before except posting 3 times at the current ANI thread and opening these 2 MfDs. I have had "no beef" with him. I know nothing about him except a cursory view of the ANI thread. I have no idea whether the other points made against him in the ANI thread have any basis or not.
I'll answer your 3 questions in reverse order. Why now? Because of the current ANI thread. I've never heard of him before that. Why this? Because in the ANI thread his blatant use of WP in breach of NOTWEBHOST was highlighted by another editor. When I challenged him on it his two replies were just baloney - self evidently disingenuous. I couldn't care a flying fuck who he is or how many edits he has or what he has or has not done in the past. I don't know any of that nor do I care. When I ask someone why they are in blatant breach of a WP policy and they gaslight me I tend to do something about it. Why him? Well, my two previously replies should tel you that. Is that clear enough for you?
DeCausa (
talk)
17:51, 30 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Herostratus: "Yes". Is that all you have to say? I also asked you how exactly is it harassment? Are you going to answer that question too? I assume you continue to falsely accuse me of that.
DeCausa (
talk)
22:45, 30 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete per
WP:NOTWEBHOST. In the grand scheme of things, this really isn't a big issue and I will immediately forget this page exists at all regardless of how this discussion closes. That said, it's a pretty cut and dry violation of
WP:NOTWEBHOST and should be deleted regardless of how well known the user in question is. 〜Askarion✉19:52, 30 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The page is in breach of
WP:NOTWEBHOST. The user is clearly using Wikipedia to host their dissertation for self-promotion purposes. When challenged on this at ANI their response
here is that it is what to share their professional background with other editors. Having 166kb of the entirety of their dissertation goes well beyond that.
DeCausa (
talk)
22:39, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I should have AGF'd on "self promotion". I don't know whether that's the case or not. But motivation is irrelavant: it's still a blatant case of using WP as a web hosting.
DeCausa (
talk)
23:32, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Weak Keep without opposition to transferring to Wikisource. A big "meh" from me. We generally afford wide latitude to users, once they've demonstrated they're
WP:HERE, to include a variety of information about themselves in userspace. All the more if it's relevant to their editing areas of interest -- which seems to be the case here. "Here's my dissertation" seems a lot more relevant to Wikipedia than a pile of "this user is really into anime" userboxes, which are typically uncontroversial even for extreme collections. What self-promotion is this accomplishing? User pages aren't even indexed. And what would be the difference if it were hosted on Wikisource in terms of promotionalism? 168kb will not be freed up on the Wikipedia servers if this is deleted -- a new revision will simply be added to the space it occupies. It's a lot more autobiography than I'd choose to include on Wikipedia, certainly, and I find it in slightly poor taste, but thankfully I don't have to read it if I don't want to. — Rhododendritestalk \\
22:56, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
What "autobiography"? There's no aurobiography. It's purely using Wikipedia as a hosting platform for a work. Nothing more, nothing less. It couldn't get more on point for
WP:NOTWEBHOST if it tried.
DeCausa (
talk)
23:04, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Also "User pages aren't even indexed". He's added the Index markup at the top of the page so he's gone out of his way to make sure it is indexed.
DeCausa (
talk)
07:07, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete per
WP:NOTWEBHOST. That policy says that posting a résumé is not acceptable in userspace, and this is way beyond that. Hosting a raw text dump of a PhD thesis isn't providing a foundation for effective collaboration. It doesn't provide anything, really. Discussions on Wikipedia aren't arguments from authority; if I posted my PhD thesis here and tried to win an argument by pointing to it and saying that I'm a physicist so I must be right, that would be silly. A PhD thesis isn't even
a type of source that is of use to us. All of the legitimate reasons to know the educational background and credentials of an editor are satisfied by a statement like "I graduated from X University with a doctorate in Y". I don't really care whether the page was intended to be self-promotional or not (though it does contain the __INDEX__ override and does appear in Google results for, e.g., "drbogdan" site:en.wikipedia.org). I'm
willing to believe that it was posted without intent to self-glorify, but it's not a valid use case for userspace.
XOR'easter (
talk)
23:16, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
That's not true. We cite PhD theses all the time, but they have to be used carefully, and there's no proscription against using them here. Also, in recent years, many dissertations are falling behind paywalls, so Wikisource should be used to host them as much as possible.
Viriditas (
talk)
23:30, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
1. Seems the "_index_" code was entirely unintentional - and originally part of a template I may have used (via copy-paste) at the time - should this be removed? - are there other similar codes to be removed or adjusted on the page? - or other such pages?
2. Should the page be moved to
WP:Wikisource (or some other subpage - or elsewhere on Wikipedia)? - if so, how can this be done - this is all new to me at the moment.
There's no "standard leeway" for policy violations. Nor is this a "recent issue", as the examples I provided in the linked discussion already indicate. Nor does that discussion need to conclude before we can come to a judgment about this particular item.
XOR'easter (
talk)
23:46, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
It’s *possible* that he believes that dumping his scholarly thesis on his Userpage is for the benefit of the project, and in time he’ll clean it up to make its purpose clearer. I don’t accept that it is a slam dunk NOTWEBHOST violation, as opposed to an odd thing to do. The behavioural and persistence aspects are appropriately being discussed at ANI, and I think this MfD should wait for the ANI thread to conclude. 17 years and 60000 mainspace contributions gets him some leeway, and he should not be persecuted on two fronts simultaneously.
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
04:58, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I don't see the relevance of what he believes. Either NOTWEBHOST applies or it doesn't. Also, although this user page was highlighted at ANI, the place to determine whether it should be deleted can only b here not ANI. The ANI thread is dealing with other issues and MfD is outside its remit.
DeCausa (
talk)
06:38, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The relevance of his beliefs lies in NOTWEBHOSTING being a behavioural violation, “hosting” being a verb that requires intent for it to be used for non-project purposes.
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
09:33, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
WEBHOSTING, note “ING”, implies evidence should include unusual pageviews or external links to it. I don’t think this is WEBHOSTING, it’s just a bad use of a userpage.
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
00:55, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep - As OA of this material, no problem whatsoever whatever the final
WP:CONSENSUS of course - my professional dissertation was presented to provide a basis to evaluate my professional background - as noted (in detail and in context) at
a recent ANI discussion, the material is not in main space - it is in user space instead, and available for those wishing to evaluate my professional background for any of my edits on Wikipedia - as before, such presentations seem to be a worthy way of sharing relevant professional background of editors to other editors (and other Wikipedia readers) - seems if other editors did the same with their professional background, might help a lot imo - nonetheless - if there is
WP:CONSENSUS about this - no problem whatsoever of course - iac - Stay Safe and Healthy !! -
Drbogdan (
talk)
01:05, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Nice post. I'm ambivalent. Yeah at times it might be nice to know someone's subject area expertise. OTOH, we are so laser focused on reliable sources there might be times it's distracting. Rather judge someone based on the framing of their arguments along with their knowledge and use of reliable sources, which will become apparent if they are an expert and reasonably unbiased, rather than their CV. I tend to avoid articles in my own subject areas. Best,
O3000, Ret. (
talk)
01:51, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
You’re somewhat new to this?? You’ve been here for 17 years. You should have some idea of what is the purpose of a userpage.
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
00:57, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes - seems I've been mostly busy in other Wikipedia areas (articles,templates,Wiktionary,WikiSpecies,WikiQuote,Simple,etc) over the years - seems the notion of a "subpage" may have been overlooked somehow - my first thought very recently is that a "subpage" and a "sandbox page" may be the same thing but guess I may be wrong about this - Thanks in any case for your comment -
Drbogdan (
talk)
02:44, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
There are conduct issues about the originator, pending at
WP:ANI, and content issues, about this page and another page in user space. Only the keeping or deleting of the user pages is within scope at
MFD, and only this page is within the scope of this discussion.
I am willing to
assume good faith and assume that the originator thinks that posting or hosting this is in the interest of the encyclopedia. However, an editor's opinion that web hosting is in the interests of the encyclopedia is not dispositive. The community should decide what is in the interests of the encyclopedia, and should decide that the user is mistaken in good faith.
I respectfully disagree with the idea that "standard leeway" is given to established users for policy violations, even if unintentional.
No objection to cross-wikifying.
The editor should be allowed to provide an external link from his user page to his dissertation on an external host, or a cross-wiki link from his user page to Wikisource.
Keep per Rhododendrites and SmokeyJoe. There is a plausible-enough argument that having this content in his userspace will benefit other editors.
Walsh90210 (
talk)
04:24, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete we're don't host blog entries or news stories, I don't see this any different than other WEBHOST issues. Beyond that, using it as a claim of professional expertise (when there's an open AN thread demonstrating that their expertise is not stopping them from being a disruptive influence) feels like an attempt to appeal to authority rather than the strength of arguments. There's nothing stopping someone from linking to their dissertation or relevant materials; we don't need to have it on-wiki.
Der Wohltemperierte Fuchstalk14:15, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Cross-wiki: Any research that is released into CC/PD should be moved over to Wikisource. I concur that this is likely inappropriate for WP, but straight deletion is far too hasty.
Curbon7 (
talk)
21:12, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Could I clarify what you mean by that? As far as I know, moving to Wikisource is not an outcome that can be determined at Wikipedia. It's a separate wiki and we have no jurisdiction over what happens there. Someone needs to take the initiative to post it at Wikisource - and that's not something that can be determined here. It's an independent and parallel outcome to what happens here at MfD/Wikipedia. All that can be decided here is that it should be removed from WP. Does anyone think that's not the case?
DeCausa (
talk)
22:03, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes - I agree - moving to
WikiSource is *entirely* ok with me - is this something I (or some other) could/should do? If so, is there some process/procedure to do this? - WikiSource is very new to me at the moment - thanks for any help with this -
Drbogdan (
talk)
01:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Preferably the creator gets it hosted over there prior to close and then we can either delete or soft redirect this sandbox.
Curbon7 (
talk)
21:19, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete Clearly promotional and despite the flurry of sources, few of them are reliable, and even fewer demonstrate anything beyond the fact that the software exists. The article itself doesn't even know if it's trying to source the notability of the company or its software.
Delete - A thorough AfD found this was not notable for the article and despite the creator of the article rewriting the source analysis in his favour on the talk page, it remains the case that no sources have been presented that support notability. This, aside from all the other good reasons that this is not suitable for article space, is grounds for deletion.
Sirfurboy🏄 (
talk)
06:28, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom and above comments. The attempted restoration of promotional content under "please stop vandalising" or other such similar statements means they just want to promote the software without actually writing it properly.
Procyon117 (
talk)
06:45, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete The article was deleted recently through AFD process then recreated and deleted again, now restored to the draft space at author's request, despite going through this convoluted mess of a process, this article has barely improved and is still highly promotional. I'm open to this article being salted to prevent future recreations of the same.Ratnahastin(
talk)07:45, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I don't think this is necessary per
WP:NDRAFT. The salting in mainspace prevents any premature moves, so unless this is resubmitted without substantial improvement, disruption is minimal. On the other hand, if the primary contributor of this draft is unblocked, I would strongly advise against any behaviour that could be seen as asserting ownership over content. A userspace draft might be a a better option for some control, though ultimately collaboration is a must unless drafting the article off-wiki
Alpha3031 (
t •
c)
13:28, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Ignore per
WP:NDRAFT and leave for
WP:G13. Not of the above is a reason for deletion, and some, especially notability, and criticism of quality of sourcing, are reasons for something to be in draftspace, not deleted from it. MfD is not for curating bad drafts, or disappearing the work of recently blocked users. And, the user might be unblocked with a good appeal.
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
14:06, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
NDRAFT is an essay, not policy. It makes a good point: a non notable draft harms no one. Except this draft had been sent to AfC before the creator was blocked. On that basis it was deemed, by the creator, to be ready for mainspace. It is not and it cannot be if it remains (as recently found at AfD) to be non notable. There is no harm in the draft laying around, but it would be a waste of time to get someone review it for AfC and a much bigger waste if it inadvertently got accepted and we had to go through the deletion process again. Better to just be rid of it in ths case.
Sirfurboy🏄 (
talk)
14:38, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
None of that is a reason for deletion from draftspace. The nomination is
busywork.
User:TarnishedPath reverted the AfC submission, so the risk of waste of time reviewing is already dealt with. If a bad draft gets inadvertently accepted, that’s a reason to review reviewer competence, not a reason to send all bad drafts to MfD.
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
14:49, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Your opinion. But we are here now. There is no good reason to keep this twice deleted article, even in draft, now that the drafter is indefed. Your argument may be a good one not to bother nominating it in the first place, but as an MfD has to be closed, closing this as delete is no more work than closing it as a keep and allowing it to expire.
Sirfurboy🏄 (
talk)
20:58, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep: There is no issue which needs to be rectified through MfD deletion. It's not that overly promotional for draftspace purposes (though certainly inappropriate for mainspace, it is not in range of a G11), and does not seem to have been tendentiously resubmitted.
Curbon7 (
talk)
22:22, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Currently the delete !votes are the MfD equivalent as someone going to AfD and saying
WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Just because the draft is frankly shit is not a justifiable reason for early deletion. I would also note that multiple different editors have significantly contributed to this article in the past few days beyond just the blocked creator,so that argument does not land either.
Curbon7 (
talk)
23:42, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
My argument was that it is not notable, which is the AfD equivalent of it is not notable. My only contribution to the article was to ask about notability and evaluate the new sources added since it was last (recently) deleted at AfD. My evaluation is what leads me to the conclusion that it remains not notable.
Sirfurboy🏄 (
talk)
07:02, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
As discussed above, NDRAFT is an essay, not policy. The policy is at
WP:MFD and that page directs us to be familiar with the
deletion policy. Draft space is for incubating articles, certainly, and it would be inappropriate to try to enforce the same standards on drafts as we do on mainspace, but notability is still relevant. Here is an article that has already been found to be not notable, and it continues to be not notable despite a disingenuous rewriting of a source analysis table by the blocked creator. The fact that it is not notable for an article is very relevant. Against that, we can say that it might have been better to let the article be auto-deleted as it should never get through AfC, but I have four things to say about that:
The article was sent to AfC, so cancelling the AfC and nominating the article was a good faith effort to avoid some mix up where this accidentally gets created and has to go through AfD all over again. Yes, that shouldn't happen. But it could happen.
Now that the article is at MfD, and we are all spending effort on discussing it again, the line of least resistance is to just let it go again and not keep it just so that it can be auto deleted again.
There was a level of tendentiousness to this. The indeffed editor had the draft restored, rewrote the source analysis in his favour, and tendentiously submitted to AfC without improvement despite a very recent and very clear consensus to delete
Any argument that we should keep it so as to let it be auto deleted through lack of care, now that the editor has been blocked, is an implicit recognition that we don't keep drafts that are doing no harm. Draft space is not a permanent hosting solution for non notable stuff. That is why drafts get automatically deleted. So unless your argument is that this is, or could be, notable, you are just deferring the deletion. Again, notability is the issue. And that is part of the MfD policy.
Respectfully, I strongly disagree with that analysis. I generally do not think MFD should be policing draftspace except exceptional circumstances, which I do not think this is one now that the creator (who is not the sole primary contributor) has been blocked. Also, while I certainly understand the argument of "it's here, let's just deal with it now", I feel that thinking tends to lead towards slippery slopes.
Curbon7 (
talk)
02:46, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Curbon7, it was submitted to AfC despite the obvious issues with notability. That the creator has tried to get it into mainspace multiple times after the original AfD would suggest to me that it was tendentiously submitted. I undid the AfC submission in order to not waste any reviewers time. TarnishedPathtalk09:02, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
WP:AfC has standard processes. They serve for pages like these. MfD has a role, but this is not it. G13 was implemented for pages like these.
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
23:24, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Weak Keep - The reasons given to delete this draft seem to have more to do with the conduct of the originator than with the draft or its history, but the originator has already been indefinitely blocked. No specific risk has been identified that is associated with this draft. It will not be resubmitted by the blocked originator. It will not be moved out of draft space or into article space by someone else, because, if I read the logs correctly, the draft is locked in place in draft space and the title is salted in article space. So the only thing that can be done is that a bona fide editor can clean it up to try to make it into an acceptable draft. For these reasons, the requests to delete it are an over-reaction, as if the existence of this draft is scary. Maybe the locking and salting was itself an over-reaction, and the titles should have been left alone and this draft deleted instead, but we are here. At this point this draft can be ignored.
Robert McClenon (
talk)
15:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Weak keep mainly on procedural grounds. G13 is the correct way to deal with these, not MfD. In fact, I can't see any reason to delete it. Yes it might not meet notability guidelines, yes it might need work, but it's not overly promotional, it's notability isn't clearly unfounded (it has had some discussion in reliable sources, just not enough to get it over the bar), and it'll get cleaned up soon enough. And who knows, it might gain notability in the next 6 months and be created. However, a draft being "not notable" should not be grounds for deletion from draft space, as that was the entire point of setting up draftspace in the first place.
Mdann52 (
talk)
13:25, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep This subject isn't so clearly unnotable we should think about deleting it at MfD on those grounds. It hasn't been excessively submitted via AfC or other reasons to delete it. It can be deleted via G13 if no one works on it before then.
Skynxnex (
talk)
16:05, 2 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Weak Delete - The block for the originator does not say that it is a sock block, but that it is a UPE block, which would mean that the block was after the page was created. If the originator and the blocked account are not tied together, then the page can be kept, and allowed to die after six months. But a CheckUser says that is is probably
G5.
Robert McClenon (
talk)
20:16, 21 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Robert McClenon, no CU tools were used. Please do not assume that everything a checkuser does involves use of the tools or is done in the user's capacity as a checkuser. All the evidence is laid out at the SPI case.
Cabayi (
talk)
05:18, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep: “Already exists” goes to
WP:SRE, and a need to check the histories due to the ambiguity of “already” and the possibility that someone is trying to improperly hide an older draft for articlecountis reasons. The use of primary sources is never a reason to delete a draft. The author being blocked is not a reason to delete unless the request comes from a checkuser or an SPI clerk; MfD must not be used for shadow clerking of SPI. —
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
14:18, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
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This draft is a modified copy of
Love Mocktail 2 except it is for the Telugu language release of the film. I've repaired the attribution but there is no need for a separate article on a different language release. Normally, I would redirect the draft to to the main space article but feel that the disambiguated title is actively misleading as this is a film that was released originally in 2022.
Whpq (
talk)
13:36, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Neutral at this time, pending an explanation from a bona fide editor of either the harm done by it or the value of it - This page only exists because of users diddling with it, rather than allowing it to be abandoned as a draft.
Robert McClenon (
talk)
08:27, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Redirect to
Sergey Neklyudov - Drafts are not deleted because of the existence of an article, but are redirected to the article. The blanking of the page and the incorrect nomination for speedy deletion on 31 December were diddling. If the draft had been left alone, it would have gone away in May.
Robert McClenon (
talk)
15:47, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Everything below this point is old business; the 7-day review period that began 16:06, 25 June 2024 (UTC) ended today on 2 July 2024. Editors may continue to add comments until the discussion is closed but they should keep in mind that the discussion below this marker may be closed at any time without further notice. Discussions that have already been closed will be removed from the page automatically by
Legobot and need no further action.
Comment: I don't see any evidence of malfeasance. This is more of an OCD thing than it is self-promotion or web hosting. Drbogdan should lower his footprint here and just link once to an external webhost instead of using Wikipedia to host it. Problem solved.
Viriditas (
talk)
22:54, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
There's an ANI thread about this user where this and the related user page hosting their dissertation came up. They've refused to move these pages to a more appropriate venue outside Wikipedia. See, for example
this response at the ANI thread. I've made the assumption that it is for self-promotion. But even if it's not, or if there is no "malfeasance', that is irrelevant. It shouldn't be hosted at Wikipedia and they are refusing to move it.
DeCausa (
talk)
23:00, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I think it is relevant that there is no malfeasance. I have worked well with Drbogdan for years, and I have repeatedly defended him in the face of multiple attacks by many other editors making baseless accusations about his motivations. So for me, it is important to state that he has zero bad intentions. He can be stubborn (like anyone else here) so he sometimes needs a push in the right direction. I think moving his dissertation to Wikisource and moving his NYT comments offline are fine. But there's no reason to speculate about his motives beyond that.
Viriditas (
talk)
23:20, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Fair enough. I have no knowledge of him and have never encountered before. If you say this isn't about self-promotion then I withdraw it. However, whatever the motivation, hosting someone's whole 166kb of dissertation is clearly a breach of NOTWEBHOST and we shouldn't be doing it. I have no opinion on moving it to another Wiki.
DeCausa (
talk)
23:26, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I honestly wish we did host more dissertations, as many of them are now falling behind paywalls, and if you aren't part of the university system, you can easily lose access to this kind of research. So I support hosting any and all dissertations on Wikisource.
Viriditas (
talk)
23:27, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep - As OA of this material, no problem whatsoever whatever the final
WP:CONSENSUS of course - my published news comments, unique in nearly always noting a link (or more) to a relevant Wikipedia article (ie,
NYT archive examples:
Comments-1 and
Comments-2) was made, in part, in a kind of Wikipedia outreach effort to help readers who may be entirely unaware of related (and relevant) Wikipedia articles - the published comments material is also presented to provide an additional basis of evaluating my professional background as a Wikipedia editor - as noted (in detail and in context) at
a recent ANI discussion, the material is not in main space - it is in user space instead, and available for those wishing to evaluate my professional background for any of my edits on Wikipedia - as before, such presentations seem to be a worthy way of sharing relevant professional background of editors to other editors (and other Wikipedia readers) - seems if other editors did the same with their professional background, might help a lot imo - nonetheless - as before, if there is
WP:CONSENSUS about this - no problem whatsoever of course - iac - Stay Safe and Healthy !! -
Drbogdan (
talk)
01:06, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete - The reasons why Drbogdan is hosting this material are irrelevant, because it is
web hosting. We should make the
good-faith assumption that he thinks that this is in the best interests of Wikipedia. It should be the opinion of the community that he is honorably mistaken, and that this material is of no (positive or negative) value to the encyclopedia, and it should be deleted as
web hosting.
Robert McClenon (
talk)
01:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete per above. These aren't a listing of him being quoted as an expert in articles (which might be acceptable), they are a directory of his comments in the public comments section on their websit. Many of the comments link back to his Wikipedia profile. Too promotional /
WP:NOTWEBHOST violation.
Walsh90210 (
talk)
04:26, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The link back to the WikiProfile is primarily intended to help readers evaluate the background of the comment author - and not otherwise - wish other comment authors did likewise - might help a lot imo - in any case - Stay Safe and Healthy !! -
Drbogdan (
talk)
09:56, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Oh for gosh sakes. Leave the guy alone. I know that the Wikipedia is not a respecter of persons, but c'mon, get over yourselves. The man is a Grand High Togneme Vicarus. You're not. Talk about "no benefit to Wikipedia", how does harassing a Grand High Togneme Vicarus for stupid stuff that has nothing to do with making content and isn't bothering any one who isn't sniffing around looking for things to be bothered about, how does that confer benefit on the project? Talk about "this is not a social site", if this guy had lots of friends or powerful friends, we probably wouldn't be bothering him... maybe he should have spent more time gossiping and making friends and less time creating content. Maybe you should advise him so. Talk about politics, this guy has been here way longer and done more work on, I don't know, creating content, than most all of you, and this is only being brought up now because people apparently have a different, unrelated beef with him.
We are not prosecuting attorneys whose job is to engineer a conviction someway somehow. Why aren't you going after people with "This user likes cats" userboxes and so on. Can't say, but there's the potential to for a
Wikipedia:Harassment charge for y'all if you can't give a satisfactory answer to "
Why him? Why this? Why now?" and "Are you trying to harass this guy off the project cos you don't like him and can't make a strong enough case to do it properly?" (I'm not planning to do that and I don't think it'd fly, but somebody else could.)
Sure, if this was a new user, it'd be different. Sure, if this was a big problem generally that we are needing to play wack-a-mole with, it'd be different. It's not.
Herostratus (
talk)
17:27, 30 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I take that as a
WP:PA against me as I opened this MfD. How exactly is it harassment? I've never had any contact with this user before except posting 3 times at the current ANI thread and opening these 2 MfDs. I have had "no beef" with him. I know nothing about him except a cursory view of the ANI thread. I have no idea whether the other points made against him in the ANI thread have any basis or not.
I'll answer your 3 questions in reverse order. Why now? Because of the current ANI thread. I've never heard of him before that. Why this? Because in the ANI thread his blatant use of WP in breach of NOTWEBHOST was highlighted by another editor. When I challenged him on it his two replies were just baloney - self evidently disingenuous. I couldn't care a flying fuck who he is or how many edits he has or what he has or has not done in the past. I don't know any of that nor do I care. When I ask someone why they are in blatant breach of a WP policy and they gaslight me I tend to do something about it. Why him? Well, my two previously replies should tel you that. Is that clear enough for you?
DeCausa (
talk)
17:51, 30 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Herostratus: "Yes". Is that all you have to say? I also asked you how exactly is it harassment? Are you going to answer that question too? I assume you continue to falsely accuse me of that.
DeCausa (
talk)
22:45, 30 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete per
WP:NOTWEBHOST. In the grand scheme of things, this really isn't a big issue and I will immediately forget this page exists at all regardless of how this discussion closes. That said, it's a pretty cut and dry violation of
WP:NOTWEBHOST and should be deleted regardless of how well known the user in question is. 〜Askarion✉19:52, 30 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The page is in breach of
WP:NOTWEBHOST. The user is clearly using Wikipedia to host their dissertation for self-promotion purposes. When challenged on this at ANI their response
here is that it is what to share their professional background with other editors. Having 166kb of the entirety of their dissertation goes well beyond that.
DeCausa (
talk)
22:39, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I should have AGF'd on "self promotion". I don't know whether that's the case or not. But motivation is irrelavant: it's still a blatant case of using WP as a web hosting.
DeCausa (
talk)
23:32, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Weak Keep without opposition to transferring to Wikisource. A big "meh" from me. We generally afford wide latitude to users, once they've demonstrated they're
WP:HERE, to include a variety of information about themselves in userspace. All the more if it's relevant to their editing areas of interest -- which seems to be the case here. "Here's my dissertation" seems a lot more relevant to Wikipedia than a pile of "this user is really into anime" userboxes, which are typically uncontroversial even for extreme collections. What self-promotion is this accomplishing? User pages aren't even indexed. And what would be the difference if it were hosted on Wikisource in terms of promotionalism? 168kb will not be freed up on the Wikipedia servers if this is deleted -- a new revision will simply be added to the space it occupies. It's a lot more autobiography than I'd choose to include on Wikipedia, certainly, and I find it in slightly poor taste, but thankfully I don't have to read it if I don't want to. — Rhododendritestalk \\
22:56, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
What "autobiography"? There's no aurobiography. It's purely using Wikipedia as a hosting platform for a work. Nothing more, nothing less. It couldn't get more on point for
WP:NOTWEBHOST if it tried.
DeCausa (
talk)
23:04, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Also "User pages aren't even indexed". He's added the Index markup at the top of the page so he's gone out of his way to make sure it is indexed.
DeCausa (
talk)
07:07, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete per
WP:NOTWEBHOST. That policy says that posting a résumé is not acceptable in userspace, and this is way beyond that. Hosting a raw text dump of a PhD thesis isn't providing a foundation for effective collaboration. It doesn't provide anything, really. Discussions on Wikipedia aren't arguments from authority; if I posted my PhD thesis here and tried to win an argument by pointing to it and saying that I'm a physicist so I must be right, that would be silly. A PhD thesis isn't even
a type of source that is of use to us. All of the legitimate reasons to know the educational background and credentials of an editor are satisfied by a statement like "I graduated from X University with a doctorate in Y". I don't really care whether the page was intended to be self-promotional or not (though it does contain the __INDEX__ override and does appear in Google results for, e.g., "drbogdan" site:en.wikipedia.org). I'm
willing to believe that it was posted without intent to self-glorify, but it's not a valid use case for userspace.
XOR'easter (
talk)
23:16, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
That's not true. We cite PhD theses all the time, but they have to be used carefully, and there's no proscription against using them here. Also, in recent years, many dissertations are falling behind paywalls, so Wikisource should be used to host them as much as possible.
Viriditas (
talk)
23:30, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
1. Seems the "_index_" code was entirely unintentional - and originally part of a template I may have used (via copy-paste) at the time - should this be removed? - are there other similar codes to be removed or adjusted on the page? - or other such pages?
2. Should the page be moved to
WP:Wikisource (or some other subpage - or elsewhere on Wikipedia)? - if so, how can this be done - this is all new to me at the moment.
There's no "standard leeway" for policy violations. Nor is this a "recent issue", as the examples I provided in the linked discussion already indicate. Nor does that discussion need to conclude before we can come to a judgment about this particular item.
XOR'easter (
talk)
23:46, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
It’s *possible* that he believes that dumping his scholarly thesis on his Userpage is for the benefit of the project, and in time he’ll clean it up to make its purpose clearer. I don’t accept that it is a slam dunk NOTWEBHOST violation, as opposed to an odd thing to do. The behavioural and persistence aspects are appropriately being discussed at ANI, and I think this MfD should wait for the ANI thread to conclude. 17 years and 60000 mainspace contributions gets him some leeway, and he should not be persecuted on two fronts simultaneously.
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
04:58, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I don't see the relevance of what he believes. Either NOTWEBHOST applies or it doesn't. Also, although this user page was highlighted at ANI, the place to determine whether it should be deleted can only b here not ANI. The ANI thread is dealing with other issues and MfD is outside its remit.
DeCausa (
talk)
06:38, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The relevance of his beliefs lies in NOTWEBHOSTING being a behavioural violation, “hosting” being a verb that requires intent for it to be used for non-project purposes.
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
09:33, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
WEBHOSTING, note “ING”, implies evidence should include unusual pageviews or external links to it. I don’t think this is WEBHOSTING, it’s just a bad use of a userpage.
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
00:55, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep - As OA of this material, no problem whatsoever whatever the final
WP:CONSENSUS of course - my professional dissertation was presented to provide a basis to evaluate my professional background - as noted (in detail and in context) at
a recent ANI discussion, the material is not in main space - it is in user space instead, and available for those wishing to evaluate my professional background for any of my edits on Wikipedia - as before, such presentations seem to be a worthy way of sharing relevant professional background of editors to other editors (and other Wikipedia readers) - seems if other editors did the same with their professional background, might help a lot imo - nonetheless - if there is
WP:CONSENSUS about this - no problem whatsoever of course - iac - Stay Safe and Healthy !! -
Drbogdan (
talk)
01:05, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Nice post. I'm ambivalent. Yeah at times it might be nice to know someone's subject area expertise. OTOH, we are so laser focused on reliable sources there might be times it's distracting. Rather judge someone based on the framing of their arguments along with their knowledge and use of reliable sources, which will become apparent if they are an expert and reasonably unbiased, rather than their CV. I tend to avoid articles in my own subject areas. Best,
O3000, Ret. (
talk)
01:51, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
You’re somewhat new to this?? You’ve been here for 17 years. You should have some idea of what is the purpose of a userpage.
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
00:57, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes - seems I've been mostly busy in other Wikipedia areas (articles,templates,Wiktionary,WikiSpecies,WikiQuote,Simple,etc) over the years - seems the notion of a "subpage" may have been overlooked somehow - my first thought very recently is that a "subpage" and a "sandbox page" may be the same thing but guess I may be wrong about this - Thanks in any case for your comment -
Drbogdan (
talk)
02:44, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
There are conduct issues about the originator, pending at
WP:ANI, and content issues, about this page and another page in user space. Only the keeping or deleting of the user pages is within scope at
MFD, and only this page is within the scope of this discussion.
I am willing to
assume good faith and assume that the originator thinks that posting or hosting this is in the interest of the encyclopedia. However, an editor's opinion that web hosting is in the interests of the encyclopedia is not dispositive. The community should decide what is in the interests of the encyclopedia, and should decide that the user is mistaken in good faith.
I respectfully disagree with the idea that "standard leeway" is given to established users for policy violations, even if unintentional.
No objection to cross-wikifying.
The editor should be allowed to provide an external link from his user page to his dissertation on an external host, or a cross-wiki link from his user page to Wikisource.
Keep per Rhododendrites and SmokeyJoe. There is a plausible-enough argument that having this content in his userspace will benefit other editors.
Walsh90210 (
talk)
04:24, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete we're don't host blog entries or news stories, I don't see this any different than other WEBHOST issues. Beyond that, using it as a claim of professional expertise (when there's an open AN thread demonstrating that their expertise is not stopping them from being a disruptive influence) feels like an attempt to appeal to authority rather than the strength of arguments. There's nothing stopping someone from linking to their dissertation or relevant materials; we don't need to have it on-wiki.
Der Wohltemperierte Fuchstalk14:15, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Cross-wiki: Any research that is released into CC/PD should be moved over to Wikisource. I concur that this is likely inappropriate for WP, but straight deletion is far too hasty.
Curbon7 (
talk)
21:12, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Could I clarify what you mean by that? As far as I know, moving to Wikisource is not an outcome that can be determined at Wikipedia. It's a separate wiki and we have no jurisdiction over what happens there. Someone needs to take the initiative to post it at Wikisource - and that's not something that can be determined here. It's an independent and parallel outcome to what happens here at MfD/Wikipedia. All that can be decided here is that it should be removed from WP. Does anyone think that's not the case?
DeCausa (
talk)
22:03, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes - I agree - moving to
WikiSource is *entirely* ok with me - is this something I (or some other) could/should do? If so, is there some process/procedure to do this? - WikiSource is very new to me at the moment - thanks for any help with this -
Drbogdan (
talk)
01:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Preferably the creator gets it hosted over there prior to close and then we can either delete or soft redirect this sandbox.
Curbon7 (
talk)
21:19, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete Clearly promotional and despite the flurry of sources, few of them are reliable, and even fewer demonstrate anything beyond the fact that the software exists. The article itself doesn't even know if it's trying to source the notability of the company or its software.
Delete - A thorough AfD found this was not notable for the article and despite the creator of the article rewriting the source analysis in his favour on the talk page, it remains the case that no sources have been presented that support notability. This, aside from all the other good reasons that this is not suitable for article space, is grounds for deletion.
Sirfurboy🏄 (
talk)
06:28, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom and above comments. The attempted restoration of promotional content under "please stop vandalising" or other such similar statements means they just want to promote the software without actually writing it properly.
Procyon117 (
talk)
06:45, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete The article was deleted recently through AFD process then recreated and deleted again, now restored to the draft space at author's request, despite going through this convoluted mess of a process, this article has barely improved and is still highly promotional. I'm open to this article being salted to prevent future recreations of the same.Ratnahastin(
talk)07:45, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I don't think this is necessary per
WP:NDRAFT. The salting in mainspace prevents any premature moves, so unless this is resubmitted without substantial improvement, disruption is minimal. On the other hand, if the primary contributor of this draft is unblocked, I would strongly advise against any behaviour that could be seen as asserting ownership over content. A userspace draft might be a a better option for some control, though ultimately collaboration is a must unless drafting the article off-wiki
Alpha3031 (
t •
c)
13:28, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Ignore per
WP:NDRAFT and leave for
WP:G13. Not of the above is a reason for deletion, and some, especially notability, and criticism of quality of sourcing, are reasons for something to be in draftspace, not deleted from it. MfD is not for curating bad drafts, or disappearing the work of recently blocked users. And, the user might be unblocked with a good appeal.
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
14:06, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
NDRAFT is an essay, not policy. It makes a good point: a non notable draft harms no one. Except this draft had been sent to AfC before the creator was blocked. On that basis it was deemed, by the creator, to be ready for mainspace. It is not and it cannot be if it remains (as recently found at AfD) to be non notable. There is no harm in the draft laying around, but it would be a waste of time to get someone review it for AfC and a much bigger waste if it inadvertently got accepted and we had to go through the deletion process again. Better to just be rid of it in ths case.
Sirfurboy🏄 (
talk)
14:38, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
None of that is a reason for deletion from draftspace. The nomination is
busywork.
User:TarnishedPath reverted the AfC submission, so the risk of waste of time reviewing is already dealt with. If a bad draft gets inadvertently accepted, that’s a reason to review reviewer competence, not a reason to send all bad drafts to MfD.
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
14:49, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Your opinion. But we are here now. There is no good reason to keep this twice deleted article, even in draft, now that the drafter is indefed. Your argument may be a good one not to bother nominating it in the first place, but as an MfD has to be closed, closing this as delete is no more work than closing it as a keep and allowing it to expire.
Sirfurboy🏄 (
talk)
20:58, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep: There is no issue which needs to be rectified through MfD deletion. It's not that overly promotional for draftspace purposes (though certainly inappropriate for mainspace, it is not in range of a G11), and does not seem to have been tendentiously resubmitted.
Curbon7 (
talk)
22:22, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Currently the delete !votes are the MfD equivalent as someone going to AfD and saying
WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Just because the draft is frankly shit is not a justifiable reason for early deletion. I would also note that multiple different editors have significantly contributed to this article in the past few days beyond just the blocked creator,so that argument does not land either.
Curbon7 (
talk)
23:42, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
My argument was that it is not notable, which is the AfD equivalent of it is not notable. My only contribution to the article was to ask about notability and evaluate the new sources added since it was last (recently) deleted at AfD. My evaluation is what leads me to the conclusion that it remains not notable.
Sirfurboy🏄 (
talk)
07:02, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
As discussed above, NDRAFT is an essay, not policy. The policy is at
WP:MFD and that page directs us to be familiar with the
deletion policy. Draft space is for incubating articles, certainly, and it would be inappropriate to try to enforce the same standards on drafts as we do on mainspace, but notability is still relevant. Here is an article that has already been found to be not notable, and it continues to be not notable despite a disingenuous rewriting of a source analysis table by the blocked creator. The fact that it is not notable for an article is very relevant. Against that, we can say that it might have been better to let the article be auto-deleted as it should never get through AfC, but I have four things to say about that:
The article was sent to AfC, so cancelling the AfC and nominating the article was a good faith effort to avoid some mix up where this accidentally gets created and has to go through AfD all over again. Yes, that shouldn't happen. But it could happen.
Now that the article is at MfD, and we are all spending effort on discussing it again, the line of least resistance is to just let it go again and not keep it just so that it can be auto deleted again.
There was a level of tendentiousness to this. The indeffed editor had the draft restored, rewrote the source analysis in his favour, and tendentiously submitted to AfC without improvement despite a very recent and very clear consensus to delete
Any argument that we should keep it so as to let it be auto deleted through lack of care, now that the editor has been blocked, is an implicit recognition that we don't keep drafts that are doing no harm. Draft space is not a permanent hosting solution for non notable stuff. That is why drafts get automatically deleted. So unless your argument is that this is, or could be, notable, you are just deferring the deletion. Again, notability is the issue. And that is part of the MfD policy.
Respectfully, I strongly disagree with that analysis. I generally do not think MFD should be policing draftspace except exceptional circumstances, which I do not think this is one now that the creator (who is not the sole primary contributor) has been blocked. Also, while I certainly understand the argument of "it's here, let's just deal with it now", I feel that thinking tends to lead towards slippery slopes.
Curbon7 (
talk)
02:46, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Curbon7, it was submitted to AfC despite the obvious issues with notability. That the creator has tried to get it into mainspace multiple times after the original AfD would suggest to me that it was tendentiously submitted. I undid the AfC submission in order to not waste any reviewers time. TarnishedPathtalk09:02, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
WP:AfC has standard processes. They serve for pages like these. MfD has a role, but this is not it. G13 was implemented for pages like these.
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
23:24, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Weak Keep - The reasons given to delete this draft seem to have more to do with the conduct of the originator than with the draft or its history, but the originator has already been indefinitely blocked. No specific risk has been identified that is associated with this draft. It will not be resubmitted by the blocked originator. It will not be moved out of draft space or into article space by someone else, because, if I read the logs correctly, the draft is locked in place in draft space and the title is salted in article space. So the only thing that can be done is that a bona fide editor can clean it up to try to make it into an acceptable draft. For these reasons, the requests to delete it are an over-reaction, as if the existence of this draft is scary. Maybe the locking and salting was itself an over-reaction, and the titles should have been left alone and this draft deleted instead, but we are here. At this point this draft can be ignored.
Robert McClenon (
talk)
15:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Weak keep mainly on procedural grounds. G13 is the correct way to deal with these, not MfD. In fact, I can't see any reason to delete it. Yes it might not meet notability guidelines, yes it might need work, but it's not overly promotional, it's notability isn't clearly unfounded (it has had some discussion in reliable sources, just not enough to get it over the bar), and it'll get cleaned up soon enough. And who knows, it might gain notability in the next 6 months and be created. However, a draft being "not notable" should not be grounds for deletion from draft space, as that was the entire point of setting up draftspace in the first place.
Mdann52 (
talk)
13:25, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep This subject isn't so clearly unnotable we should think about deleting it at MfD on those grounds. It hasn't been excessively submitted via AfC or other reasons to delete it. It can be deleted via G13 if no one works on it before then.
Skynxnex (
talk)
16:05, 2 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Weak Delete - The block for the originator does not say that it is a sock block, but that it is a UPE block, which would mean that the block was after the page was created. If the originator and the blocked account are not tied together, then the page can be kept, and allowed to die after six months. But a CheckUser says that is is probably
G5.
Robert McClenon (
talk)
20:16, 21 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Robert McClenon, no CU tools were used. Please do not assume that everything a checkuser does involves use of the tools or is done in the user's capacity as a checkuser. All the evidence is laid out at the SPI case.
Cabayi (
talk)
05:18, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep: “Already exists” goes to
WP:SRE, and a need to check the histories due to the ambiguity of “already” and the possibility that someone is trying to improperly hide an older draft for articlecountis reasons. The use of primary sources is never a reason to delete a draft. The author being blocked is not a reason to delete unless the request comes from a checkuser or an SPI clerk; MfD must not be used for shadow clerking of SPI. —
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
14:18, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply