Big ( talk| | history| logs| links| archive| watch) ( RM)

This request occurred almost two months ago. Complaints were made at Talk:Big and then WT:Disambiguation/Archive 36#the Big mess about the closure. Attempts to discuss this with a closer did not lead to anything. According to one user, there were eight supports and five opposes. Opposers used statistics as proof of primacy. Supporters prove that the film has no long-term significance. I see that WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is used as part of a closure rationale; unfortunately, for me, the guideline (not a policy) is too flimsy to cite, as both sides of rationales have very good reasons to believe one side or another and follow the guideline logically. George Ho ( talk) 14:19, 18 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• Comment by closer. At the risk of being accused of badgering since I'm going to repeat stuff from other RMs, WP:RMCI#Determining consensus: "Consensus is determined not just by considering the preferences of the participants in a given discussion, but also by evaluating their arguments, assigning due weight accordingly, and giving due consideration to the relevant consensus of the Wikipedia community in general as reflected in applicable policy, guidelines and naming conventions." (emphasis added). Applicable guidelines raised in the discussion: WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. If you believe the guideline is too flimsy to cite, please get consensus to have the guideline deleted or de-guidelined. The rationales on both sides were not equally strong. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 14:39, 18 June 2012 (UTC) reply
  • I'll rephrase: citing a guideline as part of a reason to close... It's as strong as both sides, which you consider not strong. Well, to be honest, some people cited the guideline there. Nevertheless, if votes do not count to you, at least I don't think closure rationale is greater than any other. I don't see favoritism in that guideline; just tools to determine what is primary or not, and a rule that there is "no criterion" actually. -- George Ho ( talk) 15:05, 18 June 2012 (UTC) reply
    • I'm guessing English isn't your first language, George? I'm having trouble understanding what you wrote here. Powers ^T 14:47, 20 June 2012 (UTC) reply
      • I'll rephrase for you: Why citing WP:PRIMARYTOPIC? According to current version of the guideline, there is no true criterion of primary topic. Only "usage" and "long-term significance" are discussed more often and used to determine whether either or both are useful for one or two topics (like "My Sister's Keeper"), but there are other criteria not mentioned. Tools can help you decide which of topics with the same name is the most primary, such as Google, statistics, and encyclopedia content. There is nothing else in the guideline that can help supporters or opposers, who merely cited the guideline as an argument, strengthen their arguments, unless they are themselves not good at arguing. I hope my English is very good to you. -- George Ho ( talk) 15:25, 20 June 2012 (UTC) reply
• "Supporters prove that the film has no long-term significance." Objection: nothing of the sort was in fact proven. Powers ^T 14:47, 20 June 2012 (UTC) reply
• Overturn (from consensus to not move to no consensus). Kauffner's analysis, while good, does not overwhelm Dicklyon's, and Diego's input I found persuasive. Many others said sensisble things on both sides. "No consensus" means that WP:RETAIN applies, and that the title Big should cover the film, as it did at 05:49, 13 January 2003, and thus the status quo is correct.

  I think the discussion did show that editors think that the film is the primary topic for the word "big", but it did not show that editors agreed that the section found at WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is a final decider of the question. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 13:36, 21 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  I forgot to say also, the discussion as a whole seemed to be dominated by a group of regulars divided and at loggerheads, neither side coming close to convincing the other, and with insufficient outsiders commenting in the long threads, I think a "no consensus" close is better justified. It is a fuzzy line though. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 02:16, 22 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  You see consensus for keeping the primary topic, but not for using WP:PRIMARYTOPIC to identify the primary topic? What should be used as the "final decider" of the question? Whatever that it, we should update WP:PRIMARYTOPIC to reflect (which I've proposed before, most recently at WT:D#The problem with the language here again, and Perth). -- JHunterJ ( talk) 15:17, 21 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  No, I didn't see WP:PRIMARYTOPIC come through as the paramount consideration, though perhaps it was assumed by many and just unclear to non-RM regulars. The "final-decider" should be the formal discussion, explicitly informed by existing guidelines such as WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. I read in the discussion that the PRIMARYTOPIC for "Big" is the film, but there were also others who seemed to say that "Big" is too generic for a title, being a commonword, which maybe could be read as saying that WP:PRIMARYTOPIC might not apply in cases of commonwords. Dunno for sure. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 02:16, 22 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Well, the final decider should not be merely " WP:PRIMARYTOPIC" without any reason to cite it because, while the guideline is currently accurate and precise, it might result an inadequate closing rationale. If you want to cite WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, explain how and why this guideline applies. It cannot be just itself; there must be also reasons. -- George Ho ( talk) 15:26, 21 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Well, the final decider has never been WP:PRIMARYTOPIC without any reason to cite it. If you want to have WP:PRIMARYTOPIC not cited in some move discussions, please explain when and why the guideline wouldn't apply. We can then add those caveats to the guideline. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 15:29, 21 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  There must be a counterpart of essay section WP:JUSTAPOLICY, unless we must change the title of an essay and its layout to reflect arguments of all kinds, including deletion and move discussions. -- George Ho ( talk) 15:37, 21 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  I don't understand what you're saying. If you're saying that WP:PRIMARYTOPIC doesn't apply to some set of discussions about what article or redirect should be at the name the naming conventions would give to multiple topics, which set of discussions (or what kind of discussions) is that? If it's up to each discussion to determine if WP:PRIMARYTOPIC applies, then again, we have no need for WP:PRIMARYTOPIC as written at all, and it should be rewritten to note that every discussion gets to use its own consensual criteria (or other mechanism) for determining how the readers will navigate from that title to the possible topics they intended. We can keep the list of possible criteria, but we should get rid of any indication that they are guidelines if they're not. Can you give me an example of your suggested counterpart? -- JHunterJ ( talk) 16:47, 21 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Another thing: SmokeyJoe has a point there. Both sides are more convincing than policy-rationales. There must be an essay counterpart of WP:AADD, which is also an essay, that explains how to avoid such rationales. -- George Ho ( talk) 15:28, 21 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Policy rationales should be avoided? That is your argument? If rationales are not to be based on policy, what do you believe they should be based on? -- Born2cycle ( talk) 17:25, 21 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Well... if policy is cited, policy must be explained in a closing rationale, not just " WP:PRIMARYTOPIC". Get what I'm saying? -- George Ho ( talk) 17:33, 21 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Oh, well, it depends on the context. Where the topic for a given article is clearly primary for the title in question, which is also clearly the most common name for that topic, and that's the sole rationale for someone's support or opposition to a proposed move, I see nothing wrong with just citing WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. It's done all the time, and it is the rationale for probably the majority of our article's titles. Just click on SPECIAL:RANDOM a dozen times and I'll bet you'll find at least six examples of it. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 04:14, 26 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• Endorse. I see nothing wrong with closer's decision; certainly nothing cited in this review. Maybe there were a few more supports than opposes, but WP is not a democracy. The lack of long-term significance is true of most movie titles, but it's only relevant to the question of primary topic if there is another use that is more commonly used or more significant. None such was suggested. Even if the film has no long-term significance - which we don't know and it was not proven - it can always be moved in the future. Good decision and kudos the closer for sticking with policy supported by broad community consensus rather than capitulating to a few !vote counts. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 17:25, 21 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  The problem with closer's decision is that it was based on Kauffner's opinion that pageview statistics proved the film as a primary topic, but (as was stated in the dicussion) mere logic dictates that pageviews for an article located at the base no-disambiguated title cannot be counted as support for the topic located there (since there's no way to know what article readers intended to visit), but only for the name.

This is not a flaw in the PRIMARYTOPIC guideline (which is too flimsy to neither support nor oppose either side), but in JHunterJ's (and other editor's) way to interpret it at various closures. The only way to show that a topic is primary based on pageviews only, is to move it away from the base title and see if then it's still the one with the most pageviews; but this didn't happen here, so there was no valid rationale for that closing decision. Diego ( talk) 20:44, 21 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• Cannot simply be counted as support, agreed. However, you can take them along with the numbers for the dab and any pages hatnoted from the base name and find that logic might still dictate that even if the visitors to the dab and to the ambiguous topics all cam through the base name, there are still enough left over to support the topic located there. In this case, for example, 39000 (film) - 1000 (album) and 591 (dab) = more than 37000 of 39000 reaching the intended page when they land at Big, or better than 95%. (Probably more than that, since probably some readers are being double-counted in the dab and album counts). So rather than inconvenience 19 readers for the sake of 1, we inconvenience 1 reader for the sake of 19. This is not a flaw in the closure, but a perceived flaw by those who wish fewer titles had primary topics. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 21:25, 21 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Which brings us again to the argument that The Notorious B.I.G. has three times more visits that Big the film. If the topic is not the one with the most visits at the DAB page, and we don't know what percentage of those visitors were looking for the film, how can visits be used as evidence for primacy of the topic? You're once and again assuming that the 39000 visitors were arriving at the intended page and not simply that they read whatever was presented to them and then left Wikipedia without further navigation, which is a very strong assumption to make.

  Which brings us again to the response to that argument: Is the topic of The Notorious B.I.G. actually ambiguous with "Big"? Absent name collisions, could the article have been titled "Big", or is the topic commonly referred to by the term "Big"? -- JHunterJ ( talk) 14:17, 22 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  And that response was WP:PRIMARYTOPIC-based, how? Diego ( talk) 18:32, 22 June 2012 (UTC) reply

I'm one wishing that primary topics are determined with evidence that they are the topics more looked after, not just the ones that were first created at Wikipedia and happened to occupy the string more looked after. Your argument is effectively using "history of the page at Wikipedia" as the main criterion for determining primary topics. Diego ( talk) 05:56, 22 June 2012 (UTC) reply

Diego argues that, mere logic dictates that pageviews for an article located at the base no-disambiguated title cannot be counted as support for the topic located there (since there's no way to know what article readers intended to visit), but only for the name. Indeed, I'm pretty sure I've made arguments along those lines in the past. But here's the counter-argument: Google. I think we all know that most people get to most WP articles via Google, not via WP search. So page view counts are an accurate measure of how often articles are viewed relative to other articles, and, for the sake of the minority who does use WP search, we should serve them accordingly. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 23:00, 21 June 2012 (UTC) reply

Google points to whatever is placed in Wikipedia, so that is a WP:Circular reasoning, and still favoring whatever topic was created at Wikipedia first instead of what is more looked after.

In this particular case, a search for 'big' at Google is returning the Bjarke Ingels Group (BIG) link as the first result. Want to review your argument? Diego ( talk) 05:56, 22 June 2012 (UTC) reply

No, Google points at whatever in WP gets the most hits for the given search term. For example, when I search for "Corvette" on Google, the first WP result is Chevrolet Corvette, not Corvette (the warship), which doesn't show up in the search results until the bottom of the second page. This one example completely refutes your theory, by the way.

If the WP page Bjarke Ingels Group showed up before Big in the Google results, then you might have a point. Their actual website showing up first simply reflects payments they've made to Google.

What we care about in terms of determining relative popularity of WP articles for a given term is the order those WP pages show up in the Google results when Googling for that term, without regard to other results. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 19:44, 22 June 2012 (UTC) reply

Another way to test this is to limit Google to WP with "site:en.wikipedia.org". Some examples:

• site:en.wikipedia.org Corvette
• site:en.wikipedia.org big
• site:en.wikipedia.org
• site:en.wikipedia.org apple
• site:en.wikipedia.org peach
• site:en.wikipedia.org banana

Note that for peach and banana the first article in the results is the fruit, but for "apple" it's the corporation. Why is that? Because when people search for "apple" they click on the link to the WP article about the corporation more often then they click on the link to the WP article about the fruit. So this is an excellent tool for determining relative article popularity for a given search term without regard to actual current title of the articles in question.

Same with "big". The movie comes up first because the WP article most often clicked on by people searching for "big" who click on a WP article is the one about the movie. It has nothing to do with that article being the one with title "Big". -- Born2cycle ( talk) 19:57, 22 June 2012 (UTC) reply

Using the order of Wikipedia pages at Google? Now that doesn't make any sense. We're supposed to assess the primacy of topics, not of pages. When using Google, we should care which topics Google considers more important, not what Wikipedia pages Google considers more important; of course Google will show first pages that Wikipedia editors place at a prominent place; but again that's circular reasoning. You're seriously suggesting to use decisions by Wikipedia editors to say that a Wikipedia page is important? You don't need Google to do that, but then again don't say it's an objective measure. The Bjarke Ingels Group website shows as the first result, so it should be considered the primary topic according to Google results. But when you have contradicting information about what topics are important, per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC none of them should be primary. Diego ( talk) 08:22, 23 June 2012 (UTC) reply

There is a 1:1 correspondence between a given topic and the WP page about that topic. If you Google search for apple and the WP page for Apple Inc. comes up before Apple, that means users searching for apple click on Apple Inc. more often than they click on Apple. The page hit counts on those articles confirm this. Apple has been viewed 149821 times in 201205. Apple Inc. has been viewed 390961 times in 201205.

You write: "Google will show first pages that Wikipedia editors place at a prominent place". You're not paying attention. Google shows first WP pages that users click on the most - which WP pages Google shows first have nothing to do with which ones editors place at a prominent place. In fact Apple is more prominent than Apple Inc., yet when we search Google with apple, it shows Apple Inc. in the results first. How does your theory account for that?

The relevant search at Google for determining which topic (if any) is primary for "big" is site:en.wikipedia.org big, and that shows that the article about the movie is what people are searching for most often.

You also say: "The Bjarke Ingels Group website shows as the first result, so it should be considered the primary topic according to Google results." Utter nonsense. Considering Bjarke Ingels Group for primary topic is baseless since Bjarke Ingels Group barely gets 1000 views per month, compared to 46734 views for the movie Big. This demonstrates how pointless the suggestion of looking at raw Google results is; results for non-WP sites are skewed by payments corporations make to Google. That's why we need to limit our Google results with the site:en.wikpedia.org key. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 17:26, 25 June 2012 (UTC) reply

But there is not a 1:1 correspondence between a given topic and an article title, which is why we have disambiguation at all. I'm paying attention, I simply don't agree with you; please avoid the condescending remarks. If the string "apple" lead to the current Apple Inc article, by your criterion it would be an adequate primary topic, but we have the fruit instead even if it doesn't have more page views; which means that other criteria are also important.

Of course the title without disambiguation will get more hits, but this doesn't say anything about the topic located in it. By favoring pages that historically are ranked higher at Wikipedia relative to other Wikipedia pages, you're using "time of creation and degree of development of the article at Wikipedia" (i.e. what articles were first placed at a prominent location by Wikipedians) as the effective criterion for primacy, not which topic is more likely to be sought after by readers. This is unacceptable navel gazing, in which the criteria for which articles are primary is "those articles that have always been primary".

Your argument relies on page counts as the sole arbiter of primacy, but that's not what we have in the guideline. If a source that's generally counted as valid for determining primacy (Google searches) ranks the Bjarke Ingels Group above the Big movie, that's an argument against the movie being the primary topic - may be a definite argument or maybe not, but it's definitely something to consider; we usually rely decisions on third parties around here. We don't go second-guessing the quality of their search results; we simply take them as one factor among several to consider.

Back on topic to the RM review: there were several arguments in the discussion against using pageviews as support for primacy, and it's easy to find several more. This means that the close was premature since the arguments had not been exhausted, and that there was no consensus to have a primary topic. Diego ( talk) 06:10, 26 June 2012 (UTC) reply

You say you're paying attention and yet your commentary is full of misconceptions, the most glaring of which (this time) is: "Of course the title without disambiguation will get more hits, but this doesn't say anything about the topic located in it". You say this despite the elephant in the room: The title Apple IS without disambiguation and yet does NOT get more hits than Apple Inc.. So it's not true at all that "the title without disambiguation will get more hits" - and, so, the number of hits an article gets has nothing to do with the title, and does say a lot about the topic located at it, especially with respect to other uses of its most common name. Your whole argument -- "This is unacceptable navel gazing, in which the criteria for which articles are primary is "those articles that have always been primary" -- is based on this faulty premise.

There aren't very many examples like apple because we do tend to put the article with the most hits at the undisambiguated title. This is because of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, but in the case of apple we have the unusual but illustrative situation of a term with two extremely well known uses, and we've decided (at least so far) that the traditional meaning takes precedence in this case, even though the article about the company gets more hits. What's illustrative about this example is that it totally refutes the argument that a high hit count for an article at an undisambiguated title needs to be dismissed or discounted because' it is at an undisambiguated title.

Imagine if one of the previous proposals to move Apple to Apple (fruit) and Apple Inc. to Apple had succeeded - you probably would have argued that its higher page view count and being first in the Google results is because it is at the undisambiguated title. Yet Apple Inc. is not at the undisambiguated title, and it has a much higher page view count, and shows up first in Google results, than the article at the undisambiguated Apple. How do you explain that?

Along the same lines, you're first declaration, "But there is not a 1:1 correspondence between a given topic and an article title, which is why we have disambiguation at all", also ignores that there is a 1:1 correspondence between Apple and the topic that is the common fruit, and between Apple Inc. and the topic that is the corporation. That's a 1:1 correspondence between each of those topics and their respective titles. There is a similar 1:1 correspondence between Big and the movie topic of that article, as well as between every other title on WP and the topic of its article. That is, for every article title (dab page titles and redirects are not article titles), there is exactly one topic associated with it.

You also reveal a lack of paying attention when you make this claim: "Your argument relies on page counts as the sole arbiter of primacy". That's not true. I'm saying it's the primary topic because it has the highest page view count, is the highest in the site:en.wikipedia.org big Google search results, and there is no other candidate use of "big" for primary topic, much less a contender! I underlined that clause because it is fundamental to my argument, which you conveniently ignore. Now, if we had an article about the common adjective "big" like we have one about the common noun "apple", that might be a different story. But of course the adjective is not an encyclopedic topic, so that does not apply here. That addresses your last paragraph too.

I'll just add that the closer understood and appreciated all these points, correctly discounted the arguments made by those who did not understand them, and that's why he properly judged the decision to be no move rather than merely no consensus. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 21:14, 26 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• So, my not-vote is to overturn the closure without prejudice to creating a new move request. Diego ( talk) 20:46, 21 June 2012 (UTC) reply
• I agree with SmokeyJoe that it would be more accurate to characterize the result as no consensus to move rather than consensus to not move. But either way, the page should not be moved unless a stronger consensus develops. older ≠ wiser 23:08, 21 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• While it won't make any practical difference to the final result in the article, it's still in the interest of the new review process to provide a clear answer as to whether the initial closure should be endorsed or overturned. Diego ( talk) 08:29, 25 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• As the distinction makes no difference whatoever in the outcome, I endorse the close. older ≠ wiser 00:45, 26 June 2012 (UTC) reply

First Transjordan attack on Amman ( talk| | history| logs| links| archive| watch) ( RM)

RM was closed while discussion was still in progress less than 2 hours after the last comment. A similar close was done at Talk:Second Transjordan attack on Shunet Nimrin and Es Salt#Requested move where there has been some further comment after the close, but it would make more sense to discuss of the naming of the two raids at one location.> Neotarf ( talk) 14:31, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• Comment by closer See WP:PRECISION for the consensus to avoid unnecessary precision. Unanimous opposition to the new name after it made it to the backlog at WP:RM for why it was closed after more than a week of discussion. If consensus for the naming of the two raids is reached at a discussion at a new location, no problem, but consensus was reached at those requests not to move to the proposed name. This isn't the forum to run a new RM. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 15:04, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

Three points :

1) This is certainly the proper forum to "Relist if the close was premature, or if significant relevant information was not considered during the discussion," per Wikipedia:Move review#Commenting in a deletion review. In the last two days there has been significant renewed discussion of the proposed title, and there have emerged significant objections to both the existing title and the proposed title. Links to appropriate scholarship have been posted, and more scholarship may become available, if editors have time to look for it. An individual who has done much work on the article admits there are "numerous possibilities" for a title, so it is entirely possible that a workable title might emerge from continued discussion.

2) It does appear that "significant relevant information was not considered" in moving the title from "First Transjordan attack on Amman (1918") to "First Transjordan attack on Amman". Amman is historically one of the most attacked places in the universe, from the 2005 al-Zarqawi bombings going all the way back to Solomon and Bathsheba. In the summer of 1918 alone, there were 9 raids by Allenby's Egyptian Expeditionary Force. One of the contributors to the talk page states clearly, "The year has been added to avoid confusion and locate all three articles within World War I." JHunterj appears to have overlooked this information. When he deleted the year from the title, he called the year an "unneeded qualifier". JHunterJ introduces this as a new argument in discussion without allowing for rebuttal, since his closure cuts off further comment. He should either close the RM or join the discussion, not both.

3)Finally I would have to point out that his derogatory remarks about me and his speculations about my motivations and judgment [1] are highly personal and wildly inappropriate here. Unfortunately this type of uncivil behaviour is becoming more and more commonplace in RMs. Neotarf ( talk) 17:08, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• Neotarf I have added nothing to this discussion since 13 June, as I became disengaged from your rhetoric. There are in fact three articles which are all related; the first, second and third transjordan attacks. I have been involved in editing these articles for about 18 months and wonder why you are suddenly demanding their names be changed when its clear from a number of your comments that you are not very familiar with the operations and you have only been editing Wikipedia since February. Have you even read the articles concerned? Where do you get 9 attacks on Amman from? -- Rskp ( talk) 01:02, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply

The administrator has a perspective that I respect. I'm sure the argument regarding appending the year to the title was noted and in fact the redirect acknowledges this and I'm happy with the new names. -- Rskp ( talk) 01:11, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply

(Please don't move these comments down to the discussion as they relate to Neotarf's 14:31 post.)-- Rskp ( talk) 01:11, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply

Actually they should be in order since this is a direct response it is in the correct place as shown by the indent level. Vegaswikian ( talk) 01:14, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply

I apologise, it was my error. -- Rskp ( talk) 03:22, 17 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• Endorse. Reasonable close. If a move request is formally listed at WP:RM, then the procedure is that an admin will close it after a fixed time. If you don't want a time limited discussion, don't list it at WP:RM. Feel free to continue an informal discussion on the article talk page and good luck at finding a clear consensus. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 00:38, 16 June 2012 (UTC) reply

Season 2 ( talk| | history| logs| links| archive| watch) ( RM)

• Link to requested move survey (archived)

The conclusion of this requested move contradicts with the consensus at Talk:Season 4 (30 Rock). Moreover, article of the album has now become a redirect, and the hatnote is added in its parent page: Andra and The BackBone. There have been two opposes and two supports. Opposers cited WP:PRECISION and lack of any other articles with the same name as reasons not to move. Supporters cited ambiguity of this title as a reason to me. Both are valid but inadequate to me. However, the closer said: "no consensus". Somehow, 2econd Season... it wasn't included in the previous discussion, but maybe it'll help this discussion process well? -- George Ho ( talk) 03:25, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• By the way, I have contacted the closer before this review about Season 2 and Season 4, and he consider these types a different situation without explaining further reason why these cases are different from each other. -- George Ho ( talk) 09:20, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply
• Endorse close at Season 2, since there are only partial title matches and no real ambiguity, as the closer noted. If you'd like to also discussion the move at Season 4 (30 Rock), Overturn that one for the same reasons: lack of actual ambiguity, as can be seen by the sorry excuse for a dab page Season 4. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 11:02, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply
  • • Full disclosure, is it not correct that JHunterJ is "endorsing" a decision by another admin that upheld his earlier move. Neotarf ( talk) 23:52, 22 June 2012 (UTC) reply
  • Hunter, if you want, try to establish a move review. Before you do that, contact the closer of Season 4 (30 Rock) when you can. -- George Ho ( talk) 18:38, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply
• I stand by my close. To reiterate, not only was there no consensus for the move in the discussion, the parenthetical was unnecessary by Wikipedia practice. There are no other articles of that title, and "Season 2" was already a redirect.-- Cúchullain ^t/ c 18:36, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply
• Surely a Move Review should be based on the arguments presented at that articles Requested Move, not another one. At best you could read no consensus to move from that discussion. I don't think this is the best place to decide the fate of "Season #" articles. Maybe a RFC? AIRcorn  (talk) 02:29, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  To me, opposers have not proven that policy or guideline cited triumphs ambiguity of "title". I'm not sure if supporters have proven that ambiguity triumps the rule, as well. People say that irregularity of disambiguation either overcomes or does not overcome typicality of using hatnotes based on rules. Anyway, I tried WT:DAB, but it led to redirecting "Season 2" because an album is non-notable. An RFC won't help matters either. If this move review results as "endorsed", then I would go to either WP:village pump (miscellaneous) or WP:village pump (idea lab). -- George Ho ( talk) 15:03, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  The other response is to recognize that "Season 2" isn't a possible title for more than one topic currently covered by Wikipedia. If the album didn't exist, which article would you suggest be moved to "Season 2"? What reader is going to think, hmm, I'd like to see information about the second season of The Simpsons (or of Gunsmoke, or of Gran Hermano (Spain)) and enter "Season 2" all by itself in the search box to find it? You've got a proposed solution with no problem to solve. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 18:13, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• Endorse. Consensus was against the move, or at best it was no consensus – either way the page remains at the same location. The only policy/guideline-based arguments were made by Mr. Stradivarius and JHunterJ, both of whom opposed the move, while the supports simply claimed that Season 2 is "very ambiguous" – about as useful an argument as saying that an article is "very notable" at AfD. Comments about the notability of the subject were not relevant to the RM and can safely be dismissed. The fact that this resulted in a different outcome to a similar discussion is irrelevant; in a perfect world the outcomes would have been the same, but the world (and Wikipedia) is not perfect and sometimes there are discrepancies. Jenks24 ( talk) 22:15, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply
• Endorse, I think, agreeing with Jenks. I found this case very hard to get my head around. I wonder of these debates should have a brief summry of the history. From the beginning, I find it very unsatisfying to think that we'd have an article titled "Season 2". It is very unclear what the topic is if you are not already familiar. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 23:59, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply

Yes, the history is not clear at all. It looks like JHunterJ first moved "Season 2(album)" to "Season 2" unilaterally here [2], without any discussion. Then a second RM was opened which kept "Season 2" as the title but with redirects to a main article at "Andra and The BackBone", the name of the band.

It also looks like the meaning of "primary topic" is shifting away from "this is what most people mean when they use this phrase" to "there isn't another wikipedia article with this title yet". It also looks like this esoteric in-group meaning of "primary topic" is taking precedence over WP:NAMINGCRITERIA "Recognizability" and "Naturalness", which are now not being considered at all. But even if all you've got is a hammer, not everything is a nail. Neotarf ( talk) 23:47, 22 June 2012 (UTC) reply

I have no issue with the album being moved to a more recognizable natural title. The music naming conventions specify just using the title of the album as the title of the article though, unless disambiguation is needed. "Primary topic" on Wikipedia has been "the Wikipedia topic that most people intend when they use this ambiguous article title", and I absolutely agree that if we could find a better name for that in-WP meaning, the one we use for the in-WP navigation, not for real-world valuation or validation of the topics, we might avoid some of the drama that surrounds some of the contentious discussions. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 13:08, 23 June 2012 (UTC) reply

Perth, Western Australia ( talk| | history| logs| links| archive| watch) ( RM)

• Link to requested move survey (archived)

The close on this move has been changed, I believe 3 times. This is wheelwarring which must be avoided. It is clear from these move that it is not clear that there was a consensus for the move. So bring the discussion here to resolve if there was a consensus to move. Vegaswikian ( talk) 02:44, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

I understand that since this process is under development, there is some reluctance to use it. However there seems to be a strong consensus to do something to review moves that are being questioned. so lets give this a try. If it works, as many hope, it may avoid future discussions at ANI. Also, I believe that I commented on a previous move on this topic and I have not read this discussion so I have no opinion on how the discussion was closed. Vegaswikian ( talk) 02:59, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• I have added the transclusions of this page, so it's now visible. Now then, back to this discussion, I must say: endorse "no consensus". All arguments have good points. Perth is ambiguous, yet one of topics with same name is most popular of all "Perths". Nevertheless, "support" arguments that cite " WP:PRIMARYTOPIC" as reasons for support are too flimsy. JHunterJ and Deacon are not at fault for making such explicit closing rationales, yet more analysis should have been done before either relisting or concluding, as Deacon did. ...No offense, Hunter.... -- George Ho ( talk) 03:06, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply
• Endorse original close That is JHunterJ's close as I could see this getting confusing with all the reverts. This should basically come down to whether he analysed the discussion and reached a reasonable conclusion. He referenced Primary Topic in closing and from the discussion that appears to favour WA. He also acknowledged the arguments regarding long-term significance and page hits. In my opinion the original close falls well within administrative discretion. AIRcorn  (talk) 04:40, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply
• No consensus With such a small sample of valid votes, I feel the majority was too marginal to claim as a consensus. Disclosure: I'm a Perth (WA) resident. I did not vote, as I have no particular opinion on the matter, but I was reviewing the discussion as it happened, and at no stage did I feel that there was a consensus evolving. Metao ( talk) 05:27, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

An extended comment on my comment - while I recognise that there are limitations on how long a voting process can be allowed to run for, the best word to describe J's close, in my view, is "premature". There were plenty of fence-sitters waiting for a cogent argument to be made for one side. I feel that, had the vote run for another week, a consensus (particularly, in favour of the move) may have been reached. While I said above that no consensus was evolving, that wasn't quite true; in retrospect, there were signs that one might be found given time. Certainly, the extended debate in this review and ArbComm seems to indicate that there is a stronger argument to be made for one side. I am pretty much sold now that a move would be appropriate, but I still endorse the no consensus, because I feel that most accurately describes the state of discussion at the time of close. Metao ( talk) 08:52, 18 June 2012 (UTC) reply

Further, I agree that J's close felt like a supervote, per the language comments made below. I feel that his strong defense of the close is indicative that he either feels that the revert was a personal attack, or he has a strong opinion on the issue (reinforcing the supervote feel). An impartial admin would, in my opinion, be seeking to learn what went wrong here, rather than mounting an insistent defence case over a fairly meaningless move. Metao ( talk) 09:01, 18 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• Endorse/Overturn (?) to no consensus It seems pretty clear to me that there is no real consensus in the discussion. A 60-40 split isn't really a consensus at all and the whole "nationality" line thing confuses the situation a bit more. If it was a more clear cut split, it would be easier to make a decision, but this seems very much like a no consensus. Disclosure: I have nothing to do with this discussion or with either Perth or their nationalities. Silver seren ^C 07:05, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply
• Endorse "no consensus". 60-40 indicates no consensus and the only calls for close were by editors who saw that there was unlikely to be consensus. What is more, as pointed out in the discussion, having the debate at Perth, Western Australia may have skewed the balance of the debate, making anything less than an overwhelming majority unreliable as a guide to consensus on the issue. If the balance of "voting" was not the justification for the initial close, then the arguments given all needed to be addressed. I pointed out in the discussion that there are two criteria for finding a primary topic, "use" and "long term significance", just saying they both have long term significance did not, in my opinion, sufficiently address that issue. If it is possible for admins just to close disregarding the balance of consensus then there seems little point in seeking it.-- SabreBD ( talk) 07:34, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply
• Comment - Considering that the original close/reversion etc. are currently at ArbCom, and look likely to be accepted as a case there, this use of an untried review process does not seem like a good idea. Better, instead, to allow the ArbCom case to run its course. It seems likely that this discussion is only going to confuse matters even more than they already are. I suggest shutting down this review. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 08:33, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply
  • Just to be clear, I have no objection in general to Move review as a process; indeed, it seems like a good idea to me. It's only in this specific situation that I think it's likely to be more of a hinderance than a help. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 08:37, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply
  • The move review is looking at the move, not the actions which occurred subsequently - the ArbCom is very narrowly focussed on the latter. Orderinchaos 08:43, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply
  • Arbcom has specifically stated that it is not in charge of determining where the article should be moved and it is up to us editors of the community to determine that. A Move review is just one such option to take in order to redetermine consensus for the RfC. Silver seren ^C 09:31, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply
  • Opinion of an Arb - Arbcom is looking at the behaviour of all the admins concerned in the preceeding set of moves. In addition, JHunterJ's closing of RMs in general has been raised as something that might be looked at as part of that. As often stated, Arbcom doesn't do content, and in my opinion the case shouldn't hold up the community discussing the article title. A move made at the conclusion of this process, or after a rerun RM if that's what folks decide on, should not be a problem. You can always check that out at the time. Elen of the Roads ( talk) 11:26, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply
    • The above comments are noted, and thanks to all. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 01:40, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply
• No consensus. I personally feel that 60-40 is sufficient (and agree entirely with AIRcorn above), and I note very few arguments in opposition to the move at the RM touched upon Wikipedia policy, but the status quo is sustainable, while having the Western Australian city as the primary topic seems to be untenable for a minority who are sizable enough to require consideration. Further discussion - and I mean discussion aimed at achieving a compromise - is needed to develop a workable, sustainable outcome. I believe this was essentially Gnangarra's position when he moved it back - although the headlong rush to ArbCom prevented him from getting such a discussion going. I feel really sad writing this, as I feel that heavy measures rather than reasoned discussion have won the day, but nothing is worth the hostility this seems to have brought out. Note: Voted support in the RM; saw someone else's action in creating it as an opportunity to right something I've always seen as an anomaly and had to explain to people while doing Wiki outreach / community liaison work, etc. Orderinchaos 08:43, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  I've been asked to explain - I support the close, but regret that it does not appear possible for that close to stand in light of the circumstances. Short-term, yes, we could do that. Long-term, we'd have a slow-burn RM war that could create quite some instability, as well as a level of needless personal hostility between groups of editors who otherwise wouldn't even interface with each other. In an ideal world my vote would be to endorse, but it is not an ideal world. And the status quo is liveable and no-one can perceive they have "lost". I hope this explanation is satisfactory. Orderinchaos 14:32, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  I understand. It's a sticking point in many primary topic discussions that editors often interpret it as a competition to win or lose, rather than a process to best navigate the readers to the articles they're looking for. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 15:01, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• No consensus. Although I followed the RM, I did not participate in the original discussion. To me, Perth should be a slam-dunk primary topic for the city in Oz (and no, I am not Australian), but clearly this is far from a universal perception. The title should be reverted to the original before all the overturnings, if it is not already. Neotarf ( talk) 10:36, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  It has been - the four admin actions cancelled each other out in outcome terms. Orderinchaos 14:32, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• Endorse "no consensus" The discussion was certainly split and suject to a longterm history of discussion. There was no overriding policy that forced the original closer to override the discussion. Reverting the original close was especially important as this process was not ready yet and the large number of links effected. Agathoclea ( talk) 10:45, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  I'm curious as to how you regard the discussion as having been "overridden" - if it was 13/19 instead of 19/13 and there was clear, rational opposing arguments I could see your point, but neither was the case. Orderinchaos 14:37, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  The wording of the close and the subsequent arguments of the closer gave that impression to me. The close declared the primary topic to be what is was accourding to factors the closer saw as more important. PRIMARYTOPIC is a little more difficult than that. Also in RMs that involve disambiguation the guideline is so central to the discussion that is does not need to expressly stated. Instead - And I have taken another look at the oppose comments just now again - often just some metric was given that to them identified the primar topic or lack thereof. Discounting those because you don't agee with their metric is not in line with the guideline. Discounting those who point to past discussions is equally bad as it discounts the opinions and arguments of a larger number of contributors than the RM itself has garnered. Personally I always like to challenge issues that are refered to as "we always have done it like that" with a "why?" - The beauty with being on a wiki is that we can look into the archives to find out. Of course consensus can change, but still the discussion here does not call out "We - with the exception of a few nutters/POV-pushers ect pp - find that the primary topic is x" rather the discussion says "there are some arguments for either side" and I think there is quite an agreement even by the people who personally would like to see a move of that reading of the discussion. While I was writing this up there was some discussion on the subject of supervote elsewhere on this page - which effectivly is a shorter way of saying what I said. Agathoclea ( talk) 15:44, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  I said "clear, rational opposing arguments", not "vague handwaving in the general direction of debates conducted years ago with no reference as to why the arguments raised in them are relevant beyond simply stating that they somehow are" or "generally expressing inexplicable tiredness at a debate that has not exactly continued exhaustively over its duration" (for some reason the main argument used by Scottish opposers). In particular, the evidence I presented in my support vote on the first day of the discussion was never countered or even addressed/spoken to, and some people argued over whether 7:1 was significant for a hit rate. Beyond that, only Moondyne's oppose contained really solid grounds; Gnangarra's did somewhat, although it ignored perfectly valid counter-positions. I acknowledge in saying so that a number of the support votes were equally vague, but if we're not basing things on rational argument and Wikipedia policy, then it becomes the "mood of the room" rather than something which can be worked meaningfully into a later consensus or compromise. And that doesn't help the encyclopaedia, or anyone/anything else. Orderinchaos 16:59, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• Comment from original closer I agree that counting virtual noses does not yield a crystal clear consensus. However, the only guideline referenced in any of the !votes was WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, along with discussion of both its criteria, so the original close did not "override" the discussion but followed from it. WP:LOCALCONSENSUS shouldn't override the broader consensus (and in this case the local discussion mostly agreed with the broader consensus anyway), which is why the discussions are WP:NOTVOTEs. So naturally I endorse my original close as agreeing with WP:RMCI and, more importantly, as beneficial to the encyclopedia users, who overwhelmingly are looking for the city in Western Australia when they look for "Perth" according to the discussion in the original move request, and the hatnote I placed on the article after I moved it meant that readers looking for the place in Scotland would be unaffected, still being only one click from their destination. The only people served by forcing a "no consensus" interpretation on the discussion are some Wikipedia editors. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 10:59, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  As it's the original close that appears to be under discussion, I'd also recommend the earlier discussers here amend their earlier notes to say "endorse" only if they agree with that close", and "overturn" (or "no consensus" or something other than "endorse") if you're not endorsing the earlier move, for clarity. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 11:06, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  it is not quite clear which close is under discussion, so being clear which of the possibilities one endorses makes sense - unless someone suggests a totally different outcome like relist. Back to the subject: PRIMARYTOPIC does not mandate a particular outcome, it explicitly allows for consensus to decide which if any is the primary topic. Agathoclea ( talk) 12:03, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  And so it did. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 12:09, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• This isn't a re-run of the page move: it's an examination of the close. And the argument that the close was a supervote is cogent. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) ( talk) 14:09, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  How so, since the close was based on the arguments and guidelines presented? -- JHunterJ ( talk) 15:07, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Because the close provided little in the way of rationale to back that up. Your responses here also indicate you've got a very strong feeling of exactly what PRIMARYTOPIC entails and were closing on that basis rather than on an evaluation of what the participants thought it meant, and unless there's evidence to suggest that the participants were wrong as opposed to simply split, a close other than "no consensus" would seem out of order. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) ( talk) 17:12, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Which of the opposing votes application of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC represent(s) some other feeling of what it entails? -- JHunterJ ( talk) 14:58, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• Endorse original close, but I probably could have endorsed a well-reasoned no-consensus close as well. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:43, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply
• Looking over the discussion, I would read this as no consensus (which is, I believe, an overturn of the original close). Head count aside (which falls a little short of "consensus") there's nothing disproportionately more convincing in the arguments of one side over the other. Though I'm sure it wasn't the intent, I agree that the close has the feel and effect of a supervote. Guettarda ( talk) 14:56, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  How so, since the close was based on the arguments and guidelines presented? -- JHunterJ ( talk) 15:07, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Because both sides used PRIMARYTOPIC as their justification. So saying that the move was "per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC" as you did was to say that one side's interpretation of the guideline was correct, and the other side's was wrong. The closing admin can't take sides. Unless one side of an argument completely misrepresents a policy or guideline, an adjudication like this ends up functioning as a supervote. Guettarda ( talk) 15:14, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  My closing comment was longer than " WP:PRIMARYTOPIC". I suppose I disagree that the closing admin can't apply the relevant guidelines if some !votes that reference a guideline misapply or misinterpret it. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 15:23, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  That's not what I said - you can apply the relevant guidelines if some !votes that reference a guideline misapply or misinterpret it. The problem is that it has to be an obvious misinterpretation, the kind of thing that would be apparent to just about any well-informed Wikipedian. That was clearly not the case here. What you did was adjudicate between two reasonable interpretations of the guideline, made by reasonable and well-informed community members. What you did was let your own opinion of how the policy should be interpreted weigh in your decision whether to close the case as a move or as no consensus. When you allow your own opinion of the "right" interpretation of policy come into play when you close a debate, your close becomes a supervote. Guettarda ( talk) 15:51, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  What I did was explain in the closing comment how WP:PRIMARYTOPIC applied in this case, not based on my opinion, but based on the consensus at the guidelines and on its application throughout Wikipedia. Which of the opposing votes application of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC represent(s) this "other interpretation"? -- JHunterJ ( talk) 15:56, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  There are two major aspects to PRIMARYTOPIC: usage, and long-term significance. Many of the support votes, including Orderinchaos, Hack, Kwamikagami (and the others who referenced them) cited usage. On the other hand many opposes, including Moondyne, The-Pope and SabreBD, raised the issue of long-term significance. In your close you acknowledged that there are two aspects, so you can't say that prioritising long-term significance over usage is a misinterpretation of the guideline. Long-term significance is a perfectly valid rationale. More to the point, you said: Both have long-term significance, but the readership usage does indicate a better efficient arrangement by putting the Australian city at the base name (emphasis added). No one, AFAIK, who argued in support of the move used long-term significance as a rationale. This was something you introduced in the close. Your rebuttal of the long-term significance argument in the close amounted to a supervote. Guettarda ( talk) 16:31, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Orderinchaos introduced Perth, Western Australia's significance on 22:56, 25 May 2012 (UTC) -- JHunterJ ( talk) 16:41, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Long-term significance. Not significance. And no one made the argument that you did - that the long-term significance argument was essentially a wash. And why, pray tell, are you arguing for the sake of arguing? I expressed my opinion, my interpretation of the situation. I didn't say that you were under any obligation to agree with me. The other editors here are intelligent people - they will look at the facts, and either see my argument as nonsense or reasonable. I don't care whether they do or don't. I don't care whether Perth is a dab page, hosts the Australian city or hosts the Scottish city. It doesn't affect my life in any way. But I care about process, and the arbcomm case caught my attention. Guettarda ( talk) 17:16, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  I wasn't just checking off buzzwords; I read the content. Orderinchaos' note of 22:56, 26 May 2012 spoke about its long-term significance. I don't know why, pray tell, you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm here to review a move closure, which, as far as I can tell, involves discussion. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 01:09, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• Question: would someone please explain how the reversal of the move better serves Wikipedia readers, since the vast majority of readers are overwhelming looking for the city in Western Australia (according to the information presented in the RM)? -- JHunterJ ( talk) 16:00, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Unless you're suggesting this was an IAR close, that doesn't seem relevant. Closes should be an evaluation of the responses presented, and the responses presented were split (not in terms of numbers, which are irrelevant, but in terms of good arguments on either side) to an extent which doesn't seem to be in line with the conclusion. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) ( talk) 17:15, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Actually, the arguments against the move were fairly weak, many of them amounting to "it's fine the way it is". Powers ^T 18:21, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  I don't consider that to be a fair assessment. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) ( talk) 18:32, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Really? "There is no good reason to remove the current disambiguation page, which works quite well." -- RGloucester. "per previous lengthy discussions at Talk:Perth/Archive 1" -- Ben MacDui. "As per previous debates. ... Come on folks, there are more pressing issue that re-opening this particular debate." -- Akerbeltz. "I don't see what's wrong with the current disamb system." -- OohBunnies! "Nothing in the stats has changed appreciably since the last proposed move. Disambiguation is fine." -- Mark. "As someone commented in 2004 on this worn-out emotional debate, 'Let's shake hands and move on to more productive work.'" -- BJenks. That's at least half of the oppose !votes. All essentially amount to "it's fine the way it is." Powers ^T 20:03, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Please avoid the danger of reopening the RM here. IMO most of the supports were also of low quality, particularly of the "its bigger" and "what he said" variety, but if we keep revisiting this we are going to get distracted from the issue of the close.-- SabreBD ( talk) 20:22, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  I'm not even close to reopening the RM here. I'm supporting my statement that many of the !votes in opposition were weak, and thus justifiably discounted by the closing admin. Powers ^T 15:00, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  "Improving the encyclopedia isn't relevant" is a problem with move requests then. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 18:26, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  If you were making a supervote, you should have made that clear in your close. It may not have prevented people from appealing it, but it wouldn't have had a significant number of editors suggesting, apparently quite rightly, that the close was not an assessment of the debate but rather a unilateral decision on your behalf. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) ( talk) 18:32, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  I wasn't making a supervote. OTOH, in this move review I'm asking a question. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 19:53, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• Comment Oh, thank you, LtPowers, for simplifying my vote and leaving out the part where I actually based it on educational value, which is part of the primary topic policy. Because that's what my oppose was based on, really, long-term significance, as a former capital and the namesake of Perth, WA, as well as the educational importance which I do not believe is out-weighed by that of the Australian Perth. I am a Scottish editor so of course I may be biased, location-wise, but I tried to keep my vote in line with policy, and don't appreciate seeing that part cut out and having me quoted as simply saying disamb is fine. Anyway, I'm not going to vote here because I commented on the original RM, and although I'm not familiar with this newfangled move review stuff, if the people in that were part of original discussion come here to vote then it just ends up being the same RM discussion all over again. Best to leave it to uninvolved people, I'd say. ^OohBunnies! Leave a message 20:33, 14 June 2012 (UTC) reply
• Overturn (to no consensus). In the discussion, I do not see a consensus. Was there a WP:Rough consensus? Maybe, at a stretch. However, I can't find clarification on whether closing admins are entitled to apply discretion in calling a "rough consensus" as they do at XfD. Countering the notion that a "rough consensus" call is within discretion is the written policy/guideline on what to do when there is "no consensus", such as WP:RETAIN. Here, failing any clear consensus or applicable rule, WP:RETAIN would appear to say that Perth should remain as originally created, which is as a disambiguation page. I can't see any serious trouble for readers that can justify any IAR calls. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 14:23, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  In the discussion, there was a consensus by WP:RMCI: by evaluating their arguments, assigning due weight accordingly, and giving due consideration to the relevant consensus of the Wikipedia community in general as reflected in applicable policy, guidelines and naming conventions. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 14:46, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  I think that you are badgering the participants, and that you shouldn't. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 14:54, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  How is introducing a quote from the relevant guideline "badgering"? -- JHunterJ ( talk) 14:56, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  You have made 16 of the first 100 edits to this subpage. It is a review of your close. I think you should leave it now to be reviewed by others. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 15:01, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Then we disagree here as well. I think the closer's input is useful in such reviews. But again I ask, how is making 16% of the edits "badgering"? -- JHunterJ ( talk) 15:03, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Input yes, but basically repeating the same information over and over could be problematic. I think that you have established that you believe that your close followed WP:RMCI and that as you saw it, there was a consensus. Vegaswikian ( talk) 18:27, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  The quote from RMCI was newly introduced, in answer to direct question, in the allegedly badgerful note; not a repeat, and not over nor over. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 20:04, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  OK. I don't read the reply as a direct or useful reply. I think this converstation is better continued at WT:RM. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 23:56, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  I don't agree that the considerations, evaluations and weightings lead to a clear enough result for it to have been closed other than as no consensus. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 02:24, 22 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• Endorse original close. Well within admin discretion as, in my (possibly biased) opinion, the support votes were stronger and grounded in policy/guideline. One thing I would note is that I think some of this could have been avoided if, instead of writing "per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC" in his closure, J had written something more like "the consensus is that WP:PRIMARYTOPIC applies in this case". I believe this is what he meant, but using "per" makes it look like a vote, which in turn makes it look like supervoting, even if it actually wasn't. Finally, I'd say it's dreadful shame that this has ended up at ArbCom. Jenks24 ( talk) 22:25, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply
  • Except for the first "Well", I almost completely agree. But I think there are open questions: Do admins have discretion in closing RM discussions? How much? -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 23:56, 15 June 2012 (UTC) reply
    • There should be no question: admins do have discretion in closing RM discussions. That's well established precedent. Powers ^T 23:30, 16 June 2012 (UTC) reply
      • Of course there some question. How far can the discretion go. If the debate is 50:50, close the closer choose? -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 22:53, 19 June 2012 (UTC) reply
        • Not choose randomly, but if 50% have applicable supporting guidelines and the other 50% don't, the closer should recognize the consensus of the discussion and the guidelines. There a close of "no consensus" would be incorrect. If 50% have supporting guideline and 50% have supporting guideline B, and can't agree which would better serve the encyclopedia, then "no consensus" would be the way to go (and possibly raise it with at the guidelines Talk pages so that the contradiction could be resolved). -- JHunterJ ( talk) 11:24, 20 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Thanks, Jenks24, for the language advice. I would love to have a phrasing that avoids the appearance of supervoting, and it hadn't occurred to me that "per" wasn't being interpreted the way I was thinking it. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 12:17, 16 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• Endorse original close. Disclaimer: I was the one who proposed the original move request. Nevertheless, this case reminds me of the earlier Jelena Dokić closure, which was closed as "move" (which I had !voted against), in terms of both the results of the survey (enough to modestly tip the balance) and the tenor of the closing admin's remarks. In both cases, the closure was within the closing admin's discretion, and by no means the kind of outlandish result that would warrant instant reverting without discussion. — P.T. Aufrette ( talk) 16:05, 16 June 2012 (UTC) reply
• No consensus. I agree with the comments of Metao and Guettarda. JHunterJ's apparent carelessness (alluded to in Jenks24's endorsement in my opinion) was not limited to the closure itself; it extended to this review of his closure ( [3] [4]). I am also somewhat troubled by the lengths that JHunterJ has gone to try to have his original close accepted; be it the accusation of involvement/partiality ( [5] [6]) or the badgering in this discussion, the conduct is not, in my opinion, befitting of an administrator who asserts he was uninvolved. If there was an exercise of discretion in this case, it was substandard; a sensible and appropriate use of discretion does not lead to (or fuel) the type of disruption and spectacle now subject to arbitration. Further discussion (as suggested by Orderinchaos) was practically essential before a move could be made, and accepted (reluctantly or otherwise) in this instance. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 08:12, 17 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  What lengths did I go through, exactly? I initiated nothing after my (still appropriate) close was reverted, but have responded to allegations of partiality and allegations of misapplication of the guidelines. So, yes, I may have been badgered about the close, but responding to that badgering is responding, not badgering. And if you think that the only sensible move closures are the ones that instantly result in universal harmony, you haven't been involved in move closes much. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 12:08, 17 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Allegations of partiality which are directed at you may have been reasonably raised from your clumsy and ill-considered close; allegations of misapplication of guidelines are not groundless either. If you genuinely and completely wished to avoid such allegations, then you should have taken more care and exercised better judgment at the time of closure. Admins are accountable for their actions. I have seen little so far to suggest you have been badgered about your close in this discussion. But I think you have been going to great lengths by repeatedly suggesting that your closure was appropriate (or clearly supported by arguments and guidelines presented) when confronted with views/comments from the wider community to the contrary. You already used your opportunity to endorse/comment re: your closure, but by repeating (in essence) the same thing to several of the users who finds your closure to be flawed, you have been unhelpfully badgering. That is probably what prompted SmokeyJoe to raise this above too. Finally, I don't think sensible move closures result in the combination of instant reversion and wheelwarring that resulted here; if you do, then it must be a miracle that your closure attracted more attention than those closures did. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 14:09, 17 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Someone unilaterally and inappropriately reverts the move, and you blame the closer? Powers ^T 14:27, 17 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Loaded questions will not disguise the fact that if this administrator had closed this appropriately, the necessity for the close to be reverted would not have arisen. That you personally think there was no necessity does not mean others share your view, though that should be clear from the input here so far. The same can be said for which close the Community is in favour of in these circumstances. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 15:11, 17 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  The other voices from the wider community input here that also say the close was appropriate are also simply wrong then? -- JHunterJ ( talk) 15:28, 17 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Those voices rely on assigning you with subjective "discretion" to come to their view; whether they are asserting that view so you don't lose face, to give the admin corpus the power to determine content, because they personally support the move, or because they genuinely find there was a consensus, they can't deny that had you been more careful at the time of closure, at least it would not reasonably appear to be so inappropriate. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 16:54, 17 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Or perhaps if those who unreasonably found it inappropriate had been more careful in their reading of the guidelines, no more than the usual care given would have been needed to deal with the backlog of move requests. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 19:48, 18 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  I have addressed your comment in my immediate reply below to Ltpowers 19:00, 18 June 2012 comment. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 14:23, 19 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  I'm still confused. Yes, obviously if the closure had gone the way some people wanted it to, it's not likely that those people would be complaining. But they took a position clearly not supported by policy or precedent, and failed to establish that position sufficiently strongly to override consensus. We can't go overturning judicious closes just because the "losing" side doesn't like the result. Powers ^T 19:00, 18 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  That type of commentary in response from you is highly inappropriate in a context where several editors who either preferred a move, or would have voted for a move if they participated in the discussion, also find that the close & move made by JHunterJ was inappropriate. There is no benefit in such editors coming to this finding if they felt their view was supported by consensus or if JHunterJ's action was "judicious". This is especially so, when they have carefully read the guidelines to come to their view regarding the move. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 14:23, 19 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Then I'm still puzzled what exactly your point is. You seem to be saying that JHunterJ was wrong, and the proof that he was wrong is that some people think he was wrong. Powers ^T 19:29, 19 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  Ah, I see: that kind of behavior by those you disagree with is wrong; the same behavior by those you agree with is reasonable. My close was neither clumsy nor ill-considered. There are voices in the wider community on each side of this discussion. Your interpretation of that as "disruption" would mean that WP:RMCI would need to be amended to say that consensus needs to be based on the existing guidelines etc., etc., except when there is a vocal group of editors involved in the move discussion, in which case it needs to be closed in their favor to avoid this kind of disruption. I also fail to see the problem with repeating answers to repeated questions, or repeating explanations to repeated objections. Claiming that only one side of that series is "badgering" is unreasonable. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 15:28, 17 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  That is not all that you are "failing" to see it would seem; if you did see my view, you would not be misstating my position as you have. Are you alleging that Thumperward, Guettarda, and SmokeyJoe have all badgered you in this discussion? Ncmvocalist ( talk) 16:54, 17 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  No, I am alleging that I haven't badgered anyone in this discussion, on account of it being a discussion, and I'm pointing out the problems in saying that only one side is badgering. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 19:51, 18 June 2012 (UTC) reply

  The users who have expressed concerns about your badgering, or who otherwise feel that you have been badgering, are not expecting you to avoid explanation of your actions. Instead, they expect you to explain your actions without badgering them. This is a review, not your user talk page. That may mean, particularly when your explanation has already been considered by those users, making a greater effort to fully consider what it is many of these users are telling you, and reconsidering aspects of your approach hereafter. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 14:23, 19 June 2012 (UTC) reply

• Endorse JHunterJ's closure. We don't evaluate RMs by counting votes. I think the original closure is a reasonable summary of the arguments made. ErikHaugen ( talk | contribs) 17:56, 21 June 2012 (UTC) reply
• Endorse original close. From what I understand of this process, the only question here should be whether there was a reasonable basis for the original close - not whether it merely could have gone the other way. Here, the closer followed a sizeable majority (60%) of !voters, and cited applicable WP policy as grounds for his closure. You can disagree with the rationale, but I don't think you can say it was unreasonable. Note: I !voted support in the RM, and frankly, I think that that should disqualify me and all other !voters from participating in these move reviews, as it's unfair to ask people who have expressed an opinion on the underlying question to objectively evaluate the propriety of the close. Dohn joe ( talk) 19:33, 21 June 2012 (UTC) reply