- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. This is a nuanced one, for much of the reasons HighKing and the nom noted and the rescope that happened during this discussion. It appears that the McBrides are intricately tied to their businesss, which frequently happens with family businesses. The deletion !votes appear to be about the sisters, and in fact one says the company might be, which turns the vote itself into a not clear delete following the re-scope. This could be a no consensus with the outcome being the same, but my read is that this is more of a keep based on discussion. Star Mississippi 02:36, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
Robin and Andréa McBride
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- Robin and Andréa McBride ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This article has to sort out who and what it is. Is it a biography? (It's tagged as such) But if so, it is of two people. Is it a business? (It's tagged as such) If so, it's really not notable. The largest black owned female focused winery is really cheese paring here - and there's little notability on offer to pass WP:GNG let alone WP:NCORP. Is the coverage about a business or the sisters? Is the article about the business or the sisters? To which of these do we apply WP:GNG when paring the application of guidelines? The business confers no notability on the sisters. The sisters confer no notability on the business. Deletion is the simplest course - because notability here is lacking all round. Alexandermcnabb ( talk) 16:38, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Wine, Business, and United States of America. Alexandermcnabb ( talk) 16:38, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Delete The company might be notable, not sure why the pair of them get an article together. Oaktree b ( talk) 18:23, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Businesspeople and Women. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 18:39, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. —Natalie RicciNatalie 20:35, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- Keep and move page to McBride Sisters Wine Company. Despite the rather confusing use of the term "cheese paring" above, this was an appropriate nomination given the state the article was in. As the nominator states, it was originally pushed to Mainspace, uncertain of whether it wanted to be a biography or an article about a business. It has now been rewritten as an article about the business, and will need to be moved to the company name if kept. I'm still in the process of editing and adding to the article, but at this point, I would suggest the following articles to establish notability: Fort Meyers News-Press and Fortune.com, with the Washington Post wine review as a possible third (per WP:NCORP, while product reviews need to be handled the care, the Washington Post wine columnist arguably has a long and established history of independence). (The two latter articles are also available via the Wikipedia Library.) Cielquiparle ( talk) 11:42, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- Keep. Clearly notable based on sources. The fact an article might need to be renamed is not a reason to delete, it's a reason to move it to the correct title with appropriate redirects. valereee ( talk) 17:26, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 22:18, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Keep and move page to McBride Sisters Wine Company, company is notable and article is well sourced. Davidgoodheart ( talk) 04:40, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 00:49, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 00:49, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
- Comment if this AfD is based on the topic being a company, I'd !vote to Delete since none of the sources meet NCORP criteria for establishing notability. But this is also one of those topic where the *people* who are involved in the company, taken together with the company and its achievements, etc, does appear to make the entire package together notable. But in my opinion, the sisters themselves have several articles written about them (which perhaps also mention their company) and would meet the criteria of other notability guidelines - on that basis I'd !vote to Keep. HighKing ++ 19:57, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Well, this DOES become interesting. The article has now been rewritten to focus on the BUSINESS and not the sisters. As such, it should now be reviewed as needing to pass WP:NCORP - although
HighKing makes the point that the sisters are perhaps to be considered notable but the business not - do we now have a notable business in
McBride Sisters Wine Company per
Cielquiparle??? That does at least partly solve the identity conundrum I outlined in the nomination, but now we have Delete votes and Keep votes with a mix of reasons! Three Delete votes including my nomination say the company is not notable. One delete vote says the company may be notable but the sisters are not. Three Keep votes say the company is notable and the title of the article needs to change. Although my understanding is an AfD would not normally be relisted three times, this one has sort of changed course halfway through and may be eligible for another attempt to reach consensus based, this time, on WP:NCORP??? Not yer average AfD, for sure! Best
Alexandermcnabb (
talk)
04:32, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Just reading through your recent comments have caused me to have a headache. I almost think this AFD should be closed and restarted over if the article has substantially changed in its focus and sources.
Liz
Read!
Talk!
05:59, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- If so, the article would need to be "moved" too, before any relisting, if there really is appetite for such a relisting.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
06:38, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- Could we close it as 'Move to McBride Sisters Wine Company',
Liz??? PS: Sorry for headache! Best
Alexandermcnabb (
talk)
07:42, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think it is generally helpful for editors to improve articles under discussion at AFD but sometimes they can change so much that the original reason for deletion is no longer applicable. I'm leaving this one for another admin to review. Liz Read! Talk! 02:28, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
- Could we close it as 'Move to McBride Sisters Wine Company',
Liz??? PS: Sorry for headache! Best
Alexandermcnabb (
talk)
07:42, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- If so, the article would need to be "moved" too, before any relisting, if there really is appetite for such a relisting.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
06:38, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- Just reading through your recent comments have caused me to have a headache. I almost think this AFD should be closed and restarted over if the article has substantially changed in its focus and sources.
Liz
Read!
Talk!
05:59, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- Added source and new section. In light of more recent comments, I added a new section on "Business history" and more importantly, a major source that was missing previously. It is this article in Wine Spectator, which is tempting to discount at first because it includes a Q&A interview with the sisters. However, the Q&A interview is preceded by four paragraphs about the history of the business, written by MaryAnn Worobiec who is a senior reviews editor for California and New Zealand wines. Unlike all the other articles, Wine Spectator includes the most precise explanation of how the "largest Black-owned wine company" claim can be verified (by volume, per Nielsen statistics on number of cases shipped to retail outlets). It is also very precise about how exactly the Sisters' business grew from a small importer to a partner of Diageo and then independent. I understand that "trade" publications are generally regarded with caution, but in this case, I think you could argue that Wine Spectator wouldn't easily be swayed by vendor marketing – and indeed, even the Washington Post wine critic flags Wine Spectator as an authoritative source. In total, together with the articles flagged previously, I think there is enough coverage to keep this article about the largest Black-owned wine company in the United States, which has a human interest founding story that has also gained significant coverage in the media (even when specifically excluding publications such as Essence which make it clear that McBride Sisters has advertised with them). Cielquiparle ( talk) 06:31, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. This is a nuanced one, for much of the reasons HighKing and the nom noted and the rescope that happened during this discussion. It appears that the McBrides are intricately tied to their businesss, which frequently happens with family businesses. The deletion !votes appear to be about the sisters, and in fact one says the company might be, which turns the vote itself into a not clear delete following the re-scope. This could be a no consensus with the outcome being the same, but my read is that this is more of a keep based on discussion. Star Mississippi 02:36, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
Robin and Andréa McBride
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Robin and Andréa McBride ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This article has to sort out who and what it is. Is it a biography? (It's tagged as such) But if so, it is of two people. Is it a business? (It's tagged as such) If so, it's really not notable. The largest black owned female focused winery is really cheese paring here - and there's little notability on offer to pass WP:GNG let alone WP:NCORP. Is the coverage about a business or the sisters? Is the article about the business or the sisters? To which of these do we apply WP:GNG when paring the application of guidelines? The business confers no notability on the sisters. The sisters confer no notability on the business. Deletion is the simplest course - because notability here is lacking all round. Alexandermcnabb ( talk) 16:38, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Wine, Business, and United States of America. Alexandermcnabb ( talk) 16:38, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Delete The company might be notable, not sure why the pair of them get an article together. Oaktree b ( talk) 18:23, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Businesspeople and Women. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 18:39, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. —Natalie RicciNatalie 20:35, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- Keep and move page to McBride Sisters Wine Company. Despite the rather confusing use of the term "cheese paring" above, this was an appropriate nomination given the state the article was in. As the nominator states, it was originally pushed to Mainspace, uncertain of whether it wanted to be a biography or an article about a business. It has now been rewritten as an article about the business, and will need to be moved to the company name if kept. I'm still in the process of editing and adding to the article, but at this point, I would suggest the following articles to establish notability: Fort Meyers News-Press and Fortune.com, with the Washington Post wine review as a possible third (per WP:NCORP, while product reviews need to be handled the care, the Washington Post wine columnist arguably has a long and established history of independence). (The two latter articles are also available via the Wikipedia Library.) Cielquiparle ( talk) 11:42, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- Keep. Clearly notable based on sources. The fact an article might need to be renamed is not a reason to delete, it's a reason to move it to the correct title with appropriate redirects. valereee ( talk) 17:26, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 22:18, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Keep and move page to McBride Sisters Wine Company, company is notable and article is well sourced. Davidgoodheart ( talk) 04:40, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 00:49, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 00:49, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
- Comment if this AfD is based on the topic being a company, I'd !vote to Delete since none of the sources meet NCORP criteria for establishing notability. But this is also one of those topic where the *people* who are involved in the company, taken together with the company and its achievements, etc, does appear to make the entire package together notable. But in my opinion, the sisters themselves have several articles written about them (which perhaps also mention their company) and would meet the criteria of other notability guidelines - on that basis I'd !vote to Keep. HighKing ++ 19:57, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Well, this DOES become interesting. The article has now been rewritten to focus on the BUSINESS and not the sisters. As such, it should now be reviewed as needing to pass WP:NCORP - although
HighKing makes the point that the sisters are perhaps to be considered notable but the business not - do we now have a notable business in
McBride Sisters Wine Company per
Cielquiparle??? That does at least partly solve the identity conundrum I outlined in the nomination, but now we have Delete votes and Keep votes with a mix of reasons! Three Delete votes including my nomination say the company is not notable. One delete vote says the company may be notable but the sisters are not. Three Keep votes say the company is notable and the title of the article needs to change. Although my understanding is an AfD would not normally be relisted three times, this one has sort of changed course halfway through and may be eligible for another attempt to reach consensus based, this time, on WP:NCORP??? Not yer average AfD, for sure! Best
Alexandermcnabb (
talk)
04:32, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Just reading through your recent comments have caused me to have a headache. I almost think this AFD should be closed and restarted over if the article has substantially changed in its focus and sources.
Liz
Read!
Talk!
05:59, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- If so, the article would need to be "moved" too, before any relisting, if there really is appetite for such a relisting.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
06:38, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- Could we close it as 'Move to McBride Sisters Wine Company',
Liz??? PS: Sorry for headache! Best
Alexandermcnabb (
talk)
07:42, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think it is generally helpful for editors to improve articles under discussion at AFD but sometimes they can change so much that the original reason for deletion is no longer applicable. I'm leaving this one for another admin to review. Liz Read! Talk! 02:28, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
- Could we close it as 'Move to McBride Sisters Wine Company',
Liz??? PS: Sorry for headache! Best
Alexandermcnabb (
talk)
07:42, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- If so, the article would need to be "moved" too, before any relisting, if there really is appetite for such a relisting.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
06:38, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- Just reading through your recent comments have caused me to have a headache. I almost think this AFD should be closed and restarted over if the article has substantially changed in its focus and sources.
Liz
Read!
Talk!
05:59, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- Added source and new section. In light of more recent comments, I added a new section on "Business history" and more importantly, a major source that was missing previously. It is this article in Wine Spectator, which is tempting to discount at first because it includes a Q&A interview with the sisters. However, the Q&A interview is preceded by four paragraphs about the history of the business, written by MaryAnn Worobiec who is a senior reviews editor for California and New Zealand wines. Unlike all the other articles, Wine Spectator includes the most precise explanation of how the "largest Black-owned wine company" claim can be verified (by volume, per Nielsen statistics on number of cases shipped to retail outlets). It is also very precise about how exactly the Sisters' business grew from a small importer to a partner of Diageo and then independent. I understand that "trade" publications are generally regarded with caution, but in this case, I think you could argue that Wine Spectator wouldn't easily be swayed by vendor marketing – and indeed, even the Washington Post wine critic flags Wine Spectator as an authoritative source. In total, together with the articles flagged previously, I think there is enough coverage to keep this article about the largest Black-owned wine company in the United States, which has a human interest founding story that has also gained significant coverage in the media (even when specifically excluding publications such as Essence which make it clear that McBride Sisters has advertised with them). Cielquiparle ( talk) 06:31, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.