The result was no consensus. Some points: (1) the POV fork argument is flawed: if this article was created to talk about Lyall Howard's activities, that seems entirely appropriate, and any POV issues can be corrected through editing. (2) Notability is not inherited, but this only rebuts a small part of what those arguing to keep are saying. Being related to someone famous doesn't make you automatically non-notable either. (3) No substantial argument weighs against DGG's comment. (4) It seems there is some feeling that the rewrite has made the article better. Mango juice talk 20:36, 19 July 2008 (UTC) reply
Howard's father does not meet notability criteria and I think that will be even more obvious now than at the time of the previous debate which ended as the nomination being withdrawn - see
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lyall Howard - ie the debate was not concluded.
Per
Wikipedia:Bio#Invalid_criteria : That person A has a relationship with well-known person B is not a reason for a standalone article on A.
Although the article is referenced and interesting, there is still no independent notability conferred on the subject in my view. If he wasn't John Howard's father he would not have had an article. The lead currently reads Lyall Falconer Howard (1896-1955) was a World War I veteran, engineer and business owner and the father of former Australian Prime Minister, John Howard - if you struck out the last bit - would we have an article on somebody who was a World War I veteran, engineer and business owner? I don't think so.
Matilda
talk
04:32, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
reply
EXPANDING ARTICLE: I believe the article has passed the threshold of Wikipedia notability. However, because some (not all) comments (above) said the content is not notable, I will expand the article during the next week. The Lyall Howard story has been covered by innumerable books, newspapers, and magazines, so I will include many new references.-- Lester 22:17, 13 July 2008 (UTC) reply
on page 747 Carlyon returns to Lyall Howard withPrivate Lyall Howard, the pioneer, wasn't going to change his laconic prose style because something important had happened. For November 11 he wrote two words in his diary: 'Armistice signed.'
In other words what Carlyon has done has used the diary of the father of the PM to offer a window into the ordinary front-line soldier. Carlyion does not mention Lyall Howard extensively. Carlyon is not asserting that Lyall Howard is notable - in fact almost the opposite. Carlyon's choice of the diary of Lyall Howard as opposed to many other diaries available to him was probably based on Lyall's relationship to the then PM given the publication date of the book (2006).Lyall Howard's reaction to the armistice is perhaps more typical than the others mentioned above. Most frontline soldiers seemed to take the news quietly ...
Comment regarding other World Leaders: I was curious about how Wikipedia deals with other world leaders. Here's the result: Margaret Thatcher's father, Tony Blair's father, Bill Clinton's father and mother, Hillary Clinton's father and mother, Barack Obama's father and mother, John McCain's father and mother. Compare the notability of Bill & Hillary's mothers (who are housewives) with Lyall Howard. While it could be argued that the content of other articles has no baring on this one, it shows a precedent. Lyall Howard provides additional notability by his other life events being included in news articles and books. May I also point out that the biography John Winston Howard, by author Peter van Onselen contains 3 pages about the life and activities of Lyall Howard. Regards, -- Lester 00:20, 18 July 2008 (UTC) reply
The result was no consensus. Some points: (1) the POV fork argument is flawed: if this article was created to talk about Lyall Howard's activities, that seems entirely appropriate, and any POV issues can be corrected through editing. (2) Notability is not inherited, but this only rebuts a small part of what those arguing to keep are saying. Being related to someone famous doesn't make you automatically non-notable either. (3) No substantial argument weighs against DGG's comment. (4) It seems there is some feeling that the rewrite has made the article better. Mango juice talk 20:36, 19 July 2008 (UTC) reply
Howard's father does not meet notability criteria and I think that will be even more obvious now than at the time of the previous debate which ended as the nomination being withdrawn - see
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lyall Howard - ie the debate was not concluded.
Per
Wikipedia:Bio#Invalid_criteria : That person A has a relationship with well-known person B is not a reason for a standalone article on A.
Although the article is referenced and interesting, there is still no independent notability conferred on the subject in my view. If he wasn't John Howard's father he would not have had an article. The lead currently reads Lyall Falconer Howard (1896-1955) was a World War I veteran, engineer and business owner and the father of former Australian Prime Minister, John Howard - if you struck out the last bit - would we have an article on somebody who was a World War I veteran, engineer and business owner? I don't think so.
Matilda
talk
04:32, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
reply
EXPANDING ARTICLE: I believe the article has passed the threshold of Wikipedia notability. However, because some (not all) comments (above) said the content is not notable, I will expand the article during the next week. The Lyall Howard story has been covered by innumerable books, newspapers, and magazines, so I will include many new references.-- Lester 22:17, 13 July 2008 (UTC) reply
on page 747 Carlyon returns to Lyall Howard withPrivate Lyall Howard, the pioneer, wasn't going to change his laconic prose style because something important had happened. For November 11 he wrote two words in his diary: 'Armistice signed.'
In other words what Carlyon has done has used the diary of the father of the PM to offer a window into the ordinary front-line soldier. Carlyion does not mention Lyall Howard extensively. Carlyon is not asserting that Lyall Howard is notable - in fact almost the opposite. Carlyon's choice of the diary of Lyall Howard as opposed to many other diaries available to him was probably based on Lyall's relationship to the then PM given the publication date of the book (2006).Lyall Howard's reaction to the armistice is perhaps more typical than the others mentioned above. Most frontline soldiers seemed to take the news quietly ...
Comment regarding other World Leaders: I was curious about how Wikipedia deals with other world leaders. Here's the result: Margaret Thatcher's father, Tony Blair's father, Bill Clinton's father and mother, Hillary Clinton's father and mother, Barack Obama's father and mother, John McCain's father and mother. Compare the notability of Bill & Hillary's mothers (who are housewives) with Lyall Howard. While it could be argued that the content of other articles has no baring on this one, it shows a precedent. Lyall Howard provides additional notability by his other life events being included in news articles and books. May I also point out that the biography John Winston Howard, by author Peter van Onselen contains 3 pages about the life and activities of Lyall Howard. Regards, -- Lester 00:20, 18 July 2008 (UTC) reply