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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. –  Joe ( talk) 11:47, 29 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Ko Kwang-za

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Ko Kwang-za (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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I originally draftified, but the creator disputed. I tried finding sources, but couldn't find any RS. I think the creator asserts that the news article in de Stem proves notability, but it is merely lists all 35 contestants of the world championship, without any further information about Ko Kwang-za. I also looked for sources using her Korean name, but couldn't find suitable sources (though my research skills are limited here, I has to use Google Translate), which is why I moved it to draftspace in case someone could find Korean sources. I am fine with draftification by consensus or deletion. MrClog ( talk) 13:29, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. MrClog ( talk) 13:29, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. MrClog ( talk) 13:29, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Korea-related deletion discussions. MrClog ( talk) 13:29, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply
Keep In summary:
  1. Speed skating was a very popular (Olympic) sport. In some countries the top-3 sport in that era.
  2. A very limited amount of riders could participate at the World Championships.
  3. I found good sources of all other competitors of these World Championships (non-Asian)
  4. I have good access to Dutch newspapers, and could find her in several papers.
  5. All Korean news sources of that era are not online
  6. It’s even extremely difficult to find the sources of the first North Korean Olympic medal winner
  7. Sources in Korea would be in Korean, but we don’t know for sure her name in Korean
  8. See the discussion about this topic Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(sports)#Proposal_speed_skating_(long_track), where I prove the speed skaters in that era are notable
Only a limited number of skaters could participate at the championships, and no other Olympic sport has less participants at the world championships. Speed skating is one of the main sports in the Nehterlands, and also in other countries in that era. I found her in several Dutch newspapers (I have only access to Dutch newspapers): See five examples 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Note, that this is almost all what is written about sport in some of the newspaper, showing the popularity of speed skating . I'm not aware of other sports where the full entrants lists and starting list is published in newspapers. I created many articles of speed skaters of the early 20th century (and also at the 18th and 19th century) and found good sources of the Dutch and non-Asian countries. Much of the Asian news sources of the 1960s (and before) are not online. So all the news sources can't be found. Also, it will be in Korean script, and we are even not sure what here name is in North Korean. To show that this is a main issue: North Korea couldn’t compete at the 1968 Winter Olympics. Han Pil-hwa was the first North Korean to win a medal at the Winter Olympics. There are no newspaper sources or other sources showing that she is notable. See also this video, where they struggled finding original Korean sources (YouTube video fMEGT0kEdD8). That's the reason I started to propose the Notability guideliness for speed skating, as has been done for many other sports. See the discussion about this topic Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(sports)#Proposal_speed_skating_(long_track), where I prove the speed skaters in that era are notable. SportsOlympic ( talk) 15:20, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply
While you have made your case for a set of criteria with regards to speed skaters, there is no consensus at this point in favour of those criteria, it is merely a proposal. All the 5 mentions are lists of participants, with no information about Ko Kwang-za besides her nationality. While I know that speed skating is popular in the Netherlands (I'm Dutch), I couldn't find SIGCOV about her in Dutch sources. You say "we don’t know for sure her name in Korean", then why is her name in Korean in the article? Also, the onus is on those who want to keep the article to provide verifiable evidence that there are multiple independent reliable sources that offer significant coverage of the subject. Also, with regards to "I'm not aware of other sports where the full entrants lists and starting list is published in newspapers", I know for a fact that Dutch newspapers often publish lists of all participants during e.g. Eredivisie and UEFA Champions League matches, as well as some semi-professional field hockey matches, to mention some examples. MrClog ( talk) 16:11, 4 May 2020 (UTC); edited 16:22, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply
Also, I watched the video you linked, but couldn't find any mention of a lack of sources. (Though they did mention they were unable to get permission to interview her from the DPRK.) -- MrClog ( talk) 16:19, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply
I’m not into football, but I assume all Eredivisie players and Champions League players are notable. So supporting that if a name of an athlete is in multiple foreign newspapers, the athlete must be special; as newspapers are not listing other list with foreigners of low important international events. If the person is already in foreign newspapers, it’s likely that there will be coverage in North Korean sources. We are not even able to find North Korean coverage of speed skating of this era. And with your point of “provide verifiable evidence that there are multiple independent reliable sources that offer significant coverage of the subject” all female North Korean speed skaters have to be deleted, and probably most of the North Korean Olympians. And as I said and you saw, you will agree that that’s due to the fact we don’t have access to North Korean news sources. The name is in the article because that’s the Korean name in the source. I assume this is the Korean name, but can we be 100% sure? SportsOlympic ( talk) 17:36, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply
If her Korean name is sourced, we can presume it's true. Also, while Eredivisie players are notable, semi-professional field hockey players - regularly listed in Dutch newspapers - are not notable. And the fact that certain articles are not notable under GNG (there must be multiple independent reliable sources with significant coverage to proof notability) is not a reason to ignore GNG. If you feel GNG falsly holds that this article is not notable, you should seek to change the GNG, not ignore it while there is community-wide consensus for GNG. -- MrClog ( talk) 19:09, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply
If it’s the Korean name, it proves speedskatingnews has seen a Korean source. I’m talking here about international events, not local amateur competitions. Or if I don’t understand you correct, please show what you mean. I’m not ignoring GNG, see the many discussions about NOLYMPICS, including several times Korean people. SportsOlympic ( talk) 19:54, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply
What I'm saying is that being listed as participant in a Dutch newspaper isn't a sign of notability (even semi-prof. field hockey players are regularly mentioned there). Maybe the person in question was registered with both her Korean and 'English' name at the World Championship, which would explain how they know her Korean name. -- MrClog ( talk) 20:06, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply
As it’s not clear what you mean with semi-prof field hockey, please give an example showing those internationals. The people were not registered with both names (highly unlikely), never seen it on the speed skating lists and it’s not in the official ISU database. SportsOlympic ( talk) 07:08, 5 May 2020 (UTC) reply
I'm talking about national semi-prof. field hockey leagues. -- MrClog ( talk) 09:15, 5 May 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Comment (as nom) This is much more a disagreement over whether participation in certain events proves notability. This is now being discussed at Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports) § Notability guideliness speed skating (proposal by SportsOlympic). As long as there is no community consensus there in favour of these standards, SportsOlympic can't claim that thye have proven notability by virtue of showing she participated in a World Championships. Instead, they should proof the article meets GNG, which they've said is impossible. -- MrClog ( talk) 09:19, 5 May 2020 (UTC) reply
There is no consensus yet as it’s ongoing and placed recently. I started it to avoid discussions like this. The Speed skating World championships athletes concession is made at other Wikis. Due to the lack of Korean sources, almost all North Korean athlete don’t have available sources. Many times Olympians at AfD, most recent one: medal winner Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yun Chol (weightlifter). Same story about sourcing as above. So we should wait if there will be consensus on the notability guideliness you mean? SportsOlympic ( talk) 10:42, 5 May 2020 (UTC) reply
That doesn't add anything. Having an article in another country doesn't count for notability. And all other Olympic North Korean speed skaters (apart from the one who won a medal) don't have a page on the Korean wiki: An Sen-za, Bak Wol-ja, Choi Dong-ok, Chong Chang-suk, Han Chun-ok, Kim Bok-soon, Kim Chang-hae, Kim Chun-wol, Kim Jong-hui, Kim Myung-ja, Kim Ok-hui (speed skater), Pak Gum-hyon, Pak Gum-hyon, Ryoo Choon-za, Song Hwa-son, Tak In-suk, Kim Song-soon, Ko Hyon-suk. SportsOlympic ( talk) 08:55, 6 May 2020 (UTC) reply
  • This is an impossible AfD, as we really have no way of determining her notability without access to sources. It's a shame too considering this is a better article than a spot-check of any of the articles listed above. I would go as far to say that if she did not receive North Korean press coverage, though, her article should definitely be deleted as we have no significant coverage of her, the photo is the best part of the article regarding verification. SportingFlyer T· C 07:35, 10 May 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Comment, some additional information on North Korean speed skates can be found in the Encyclopedia: “ Eng, Trond en Marnix Koolhaas. National All Time & Encyclopedia Men / Ladies as at 1.7.87, Issue N°6: Africa, Asia, Oceania, Vol.2. Veggli, Noorwegen: WSSSA-Skøytenytt, 1987.”
It’s the only information source (apart from the website of this article) of the North Korean speed skaters listed above. I asked the user if he still has this encyclopedia to find additional info. [:nl: Overleg gebruiker:Dirk P Broer|see here] SportsOlympic ( talk) 08:06, 10 May 2020 (UTC) reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Barkeep49 ( talk) 01:42, 13 May 2020 (UTC) reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I think if sources can't be found in the next then this will struggle to survive
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 23:03, 21 May 2020 (UTC) reply
Re: That's the whole discussion as we don't have access to North Korean sources, as with the Olympians. It appears no consensus is reached. SportsOlympic ( talk) 08:59, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ko_Kwang-za&oldid=959564608"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. –  Joe ( talk) 11:47, 29 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Ko Kwang-za

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

Ko Kwang-za (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
(Find sources:  Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

I originally draftified, but the creator disputed. I tried finding sources, but couldn't find any RS. I think the creator asserts that the news article in de Stem proves notability, but it is merely lists all 35 contestants of the world championship, without any further information about Ko Kwang-za. I also looked for sources using her Korean name, but couldn't find suitable sources (though my research skills are limited here, I has to use Google Translate), which is why I moved it to draftspace in case someone could find Korean sources. I am fine with draftification by consensus or deletion. MrClog ( talk) 13:29, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. MrClog ( talk) 13:29, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. MrClog ( talk) 13:29, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Korea-related deletion discussions. MrClog ( talk) 13:29, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply
Keep In summary:
  1. Speed skating was a very popular (Olympic) sport. In some countries the top-3 sport in that era.
  2. A very limited amount of riders could participate at the World Championships.
  3. I found good sources of all other competitors of these World Championships (non-Asian)
  4. I have good access to Dutch newspapers, and could find her in several papers.
  5. All Korean news sources of that era are not online
  6. It’s even extremely difficult to find the sources of the first North Korean Olympic medal winner
  7. Sources in Korea would be in Korean, but we don’t know for sure her name in Korean
  8. See the discussion about this topic Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(sports)#Proposal_speed_skating_(long_track), where I prove the speed skaters in that era are notable
Only a limited number of skaters could participate at the championships, and no other Olympic sport has less participants at the world championships. Speed skating is one of the main sports in the Nehterlands, and also in other countries in that era. I found her in several Dutch newspapers (I have only access to Dutch newspapers): See five examples 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Note, that this is almost all what is written about sport in some of the newspaper, showing the popularity of speed skating . I'm not aware of other sports where the full entrants lists and starting list is published in newspapers. I created many articles of speed skaters of the early 20th century (and also at the 18th and 19th century) and found good sources of the Dutch and non-Asian countries. Much of the Asian news sources of the 1960s (and before) are not online. So all the news sources can't be found. Also, it will be in Korean script, and we are even not sure what here name is in North Korean. To show that this is a main issue: North Korea couldn’t compete at the 1968 Winter Olympics. Han Pil-hwa was the first North Korean to win a medal at the Winter Olympics. There are no newspaper sources or other sources showing that she is notable. See also this video, where they struggled finding original Korean sources (YouTube video fMEGT0kEdD8). That's the reason I started to propose the Notability guideliness for speed skating, as has been done for many other sports. See the discussion about this topic Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(sports)#Proposal_speed_skating_(long_track), where I prove the speed skaters in that era are notable. SportsOlympic ( talk) 15:20, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply
While you have made your case for a set of criteria with regards to speed skaters, there is no consensus at this point in favour of those criteria, it is merely a proposal. All the 5 mentions are lists of participants, with no information about Ko Kwang-za besides her nationality. While I know that speed skating is popular in the Netherlands (I'm Dutch), I couldn't find SIGCOV about her in Dutch sources. You say "we don’t know for sure her name in Korean", then why is her name in Korean in the article? Also, the onus is on those who want to keep the article to provide verifiable evidence that there are multiple independent reliable sources that offer significant coverage of the subject. Also, with regards to "I'm not aware of other sports where the full entrants lists and starting list is published in newspapers", I know for a fact that Dutch newspapers often publish lists of all participants during e.g. Eredivisie and UEFA Champions League matches, as well as some semi-professional field hockey matches, to mention some examples. MrClog ( talk) 16:11, 4 May 2020 (UTC); edited 16:22, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply
Also, I watched the video you linked, but couldn't find any mention of a lack of sources. (Though they did mention they were unable to get permission to interview her from the DPRK.) -- MrClog ( talk) 16:19, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply
I’m not into football, but I assume all Eredivisie players and Champions League players are notable. So supporting that if a name of an athlete is in multiple foreign newspapers, the athlete must be special; as newspapers are not listing other list with foreigners of low important international events. If the person is already in foreign newspapers, it’s likely that there will be coverage in North Korean sources. We are not even able to find North Korean coverage of speed skating of this era. And with your point of “provide verifiable evidence that there are multiple independent reliable sources that offer significant coverage of the subject” all female North Korean speed skaters have to be deleted, and probably most of the North Korean Olympians. And as I said and you saw, you will agree that that’s due to the fact we don’t have access to North Korean news sources. The name is in the article because that’s the Korean name in the source. I assume this is the Korean name, but can we be 100% sure? SportsOlympic ( talk) 17:36, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply
If her Korean name is sourced, we can presume it's true. Also, while Eredivisie players are notable, semi-professional field hockey players - regularly listed in Dutch newspapers - are not notable. And the fact that certain articles are not notable under GNG (there must be multiple independent reliable sources with significant coverage to proof notability) is not a reason to ignore GNG. If you feel GNG falsly holds that this article is not notable, you should seek to change the GNG, not ignore it while there is community-wide consensus for GNG. -- MrClog ( talk) 19:09, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply
If it’s the Korean name, it proves speedskatingnews has seen a Korean source. I’m talking here about international events, not local amateur competitions. Or if I don’t understand you correct, please show what you mean. I’m not ignoring GNG, see the many discussions about NOLYMPICS, including several times Korean people. SportsOlympic ( talk) 19:54, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply
What I'm saying is that being listed as participant in a Dutch newspaper isn't a sign of notability (even semi-prof. field hockey players are regularly mentioned there). Maybe the person in question was registered with both her Korean and 'English' name at the World Championship, which would explain how they know her Korean name. -- MrClog ( talk) 20:06, 4 May 2020 (UTC) reply
As it’s not clear what you mean with semi-prof field hockey, please give an example showing those internationals. The people were not registered with both names (highly unlikely), never seen it on the speed skating lists and it’s not in the official ISU database. SportsOlympic ( talk) 07:08, 5 May 2020 (UTC) reply
I'm talking about national semi-prof. field hockey leagues. -- MrClog ( talk) 09:15, 5 May 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Comment (as nom) This is much more a disagreement over whether participation in certain events proves notability. This is now being discussed at Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports) § Notability guideliness speed skating (proposal by SportsOlympic). As long as there is no community consensus there in favour of these standards, SportsOlympic can't claim that thye have proven notability by virtue of showing she participated in a World Championships. Instead, they should proof the article meets GNG, which they've said is impossible. -- MrClog ( talk) 09:19, 5 May 2020 (UTC) reply
There is no consensus yet as it’s ongoing and placed recently. I started it to avoid discussions like this. The Speed skating World championships athletes concession is made at other Wikis. Due to the lack of Korean sources, almost all North Korean athlete don’t have available sources. Many times Olympians at AfD, most recent one: medal winner Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yun Chol (weightlifter). Same story about sourcing as above. So we should wait if there will be consensus on the notability guideliness you mean? SportsOlympic ( talk) 10:42, 5 May 2020 (UTC) reply
That doesn't add anything. Having an article in another country doesn't count for notability. And all other Olympic North Korean speed skaters (apart from the one who won a medal) don't have a page on the Korean wiki: An Sen-za, Bak Wol-ja, Choi Dong-ok, Chong Chang-suk, Han Chun-ok, Kim Bok-soon, Kim Chang-hae, Kim Chun-wol, Kim Jong-hui, Kim Myung-ja, Kim Ok-hui (speed skater), Pak Gum-hyon, Pak Gum-hyon, Ryoo Choon-za, Song Hwa-son, Tak In-suk, Kim Song-soon, Ko Hyon-suk. SportsOlympic ( talk) 08:55, 6 May 2020 (UTC) reply
  • This is an impossible AfD, as we really have no way of determining her notability without access to sources. It's a shame too considering this is a better article than a spot-check of any of the articles listed above. I would go as far to say that if she did not receive North Korean press coverage, though, her article should definitely be deleted as we have no significant coverage of her, the photo is the best part of the article regarding verification. SportingFlyer T· C 07:35, 10 May 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Comment, some additional information on North Korean speed skates can be found in the Encyclopedia: “ Eng, Trond en Marnix Koolhaas. National All Time & Encyclopedia Men / Ladies as at 1.7.87, Issue N°6: Africa, Asia, Oceania, Vol.2. Veggli, Noorwegen: WSSSA-Skøytenytt, 1987.”
It’s the only information source (apart from the website of this article) of the North Korean speed skaters listed above. I asked the user if he still has this encyclopedia to find additional info. [:nl: Overleg gebruiker:Dirk P Broer|see here] SportsOlympic ( talk) 08:06, 10 May 2020 (UTC) reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Barkeep49 ( talk) 01:42, 13 May 2020 (UTC) reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I think if sources can't be found in the next then this will struggle to survive
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 23:03, 21 May 2020 (UTC) reply
Re: That's the whole discussion as we don't have access to North Korean sources, as with the Olympians. It appears no consensus is reached. SportsOlympic ( talk) 08:59, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ko_Kwang-za&oldid=959564608"

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