- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. The article does indeed appear to meet the bar of WP:MUSICBIO, to which even the nominator agrees in discussion below. The article does need a bit of cleanup to remove some unsourced info. A Train talk 10:09, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Jean Johnson (singer)
- Jean Johnson (singer) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non-notable musician. Johnson is a backup and session singer who has had some minor success, but not to the level that rises to meet Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion. Claims that Johnson was nominated for a Grammy are not supported by reliable sources (and a nomination, without a win, would not meet the criteria anyway). Claims that her "work on [ Sandra Crouch's] album subsequently won the Grammy for Best Gospel Performance, Female" can also not be verified. (Crouch did win the Grammy; what is unverifiable is whether any credit for that win can go to Johnson.) WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 16:32, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- I would note that being nominated for a Grammy would be sufficient for the notability guidelines, as they state "Has won or been nominated for a major music award"(assuming they actually were). 331dot ( talk) 17:31, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- All that said, WikiDan is correct that it doesn't seem that this person was, at least according to what I call a reliable source.
Unless one is offered I would say delete as not meeting the notability guidelines.331dot ( talk) 17:45, 20 April 2017 (UTC) - Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (✉) 17:46, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (✉) 17:46, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- Delete Background vocalists are important, but they are not usually notable. Fails WP:MUSICBIO and WP:GNG. The article itself is promotional and poorly sourced, which is understandable since sources cannot be found (using the Google searches above). Walter Görlitz ( talk) 18:14, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
She is a Grammy nominated singer here https://books.google.com/books?id=tDYftTBTFyEC&pg=PA108&lpg=PA108&dq=jean+johnson+and+sandra+crouch+grammy&source=bl&ots=eX0yfzcF5X&sig=9k0mYxyfFb1zQICQYDcAtKrOJcs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwizodbQyLPTAhWFilQKHflwADUQ6AEIHTAB#v=onepage&q=jean%20johnson%20and%20sandra%20crouch%20grammy&f=false
Or what about the ever so popular Jet magazine. Oh wait u may be skeptical of them too - here -'
And here is bill board official newspaper sir https://books.google.com/books?id=ACQEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT63&dq=jean+johnson+and+sandra+crouch+grammy&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilmemZz7PTAhUJ64MKHcUDDjoQ6AEIIjAC#v=onepage&q=jean%20johnson%20and%20sandra%20crouch%20grammy&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keyonne TalentSupporter1 ( talk • contribs) 18:44, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- I looked at the Billboard magazine linked to above this post, and I did barely make Johnson's name out(under 'Best Soul Gospel Vocal Performance by a duo, group, choir, or chorus'). I'll leave it to others to decide if that is sufficient or not, but it does seem to be there. That doesn't change the other issues with the article itself, as described by Walter above. 331dot ( talk) 18:50, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Here is another article- you would be able to see it if u just hit the zoom in button on google as they put it there for that reason. Here is Jet magazine where she was projected to win...
https://books.google.com/books?id=NrMDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA58&dq=jean+johnson+completely+yes+jet&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjVx7ip4bPTAhXIqlQKHS4zAzkQ6AEIGjAA — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Keyonne TalentSupporter1 (
talk •
contribs) 19:25, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- Comment @
Keyonne TalentSupporter1: Taking your points one at a time:
- The book Uncloudy Days ( ISBN 9780879308414) notes that Sandra Crouch won a Grammy for her album We Sing Praises. It further notes that Johnson sang lead on one track of that album, "He's Worthy." It does not record that Johnson received any Grammy notice (nomination or win) for her participation in that album.
- The Jet article from January 27, 1986 does verify that Johnson was nominated, along with Sandra Crouch, for "Best Soul Gospel performance by a Duo, Group, Choir or Chorus" for the album Completely Yes. It does not verify that this album was favored to win in any particular way.
- The Billboard article verifies the same information.
- At best, we have a singer who was co-nominated, but did not win, a Grammy for a single album. Under WP:BLP1E, I'd say that we might allow a redirect to the Sandra Crouch article, with a mention of Johnson's name as co-nominee for Completely Yes. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 19:41, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- @
WikiDan61: it clearly says official Grammy nominations- you are just being difficult. You are an expert in reading so why can't you see that. I clearly see your point. She was nominated period. maybe if her last name was Streisand she wouldn't have this problem. Even sag Aftra recognizes her as such.
https://books.google.com/books?id=ACQEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT63&dq=jean+johnson+and+sandra+crouch+grammy&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilmemZz7PTAhUJ64MKHcUDDjoQ6AEIIjAC#v=onepage&q=jean%20johnson%20and%20sandra%20crouch%20grammy&f=false
- Comment @ Keyonne TalentSupporter1: What clearly says "official Grammy nominations"? (Just trying to clarify your point.) As I have said, I have no doubt that Johnson officially received a Grammy nomination. And as such, according to WP:MUSIC, she is presumed notable. But Wikipedia requires reliable sources to verify all of the information in an article. At this time, the only information that we can verify from reliable sources is that Johnson received a Grammy nomination for an album on which she appeared. That's not a lot to build an article on. Wikipedia practice in cases where people are notable only for a single event is to redirect the article to the event for which the person is notable. In this case, I recommend a redirect to Sandra Crouch. I have already expanded that article to include Johnson's co-nomination for the album Completely Yes, using the Jet article as a citation. Unless we can find other published sources that talk about Ms Johnson in more depth, there's not much more to say about her. Any details about her early life should be deleted as unverifiable, and her involvement as a session musician for various other albums do not appear to be notable. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 19:59, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
@ WikiDan61: Are you blind!?! It says in big bold letters 28th annual Grammy awards final nominations. Get real. You should just retire and get off here. She was nominated whether you like it or not and it constitutes a notable person page. Sorry Charley. She was one of the few blacks that broke pass that wall your people put up :)
- Please stop with the baseless racism accusations.
331dot (
talk) 20:17, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- @ Keyonne TalentSupporter1: I'm tapping out here. I've made my points. You've made yours. Any further debate between us would just lead to anger. Let's let others discuss. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 20:34, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- Please stop with the baseless racism accusations.
331dot (
talk) 20:17, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- Keep: Passes WP:MUSICBIO #8 for her Grammy nomination. The nomination in question was for Best Soul Gospel Performance by a Duo or Group, Choir or Chorus at the 1986 Annual Grammy Awards for Completely Yes. [1] St Anselm ( talk) 12:18, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 20:57, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 20:57, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Onel5969 TT me 23:04, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
- Delete winning an award makes someone notable, not just being nominated for it. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 06:27, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
- @ Johnpacklambert: As I state above, the notability criteria states that being nominated is sufficient for notability. 331dot ( talk) 07:56, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
- Comment: I've seen a few delete !votes, and I don't understand why this particular case would be an exception to WP:MUSICBIO. Anyone care to explain? St Anselm ( talk) 22:01, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
- Further comment: The OP is mistaken, of course, when it says "and a nomination, without a win, would not meet the criteria anyway". WP:MUSICBIO explicitly states that a Grammy nomination implies notability. St Anselm ( talk) 22:03, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
- Keep was nominated for a grammy. Despite statements here to the contrary, per WP:Music "Has won or been nominated for a major music award, such as a Grammy, Juno, Mercury, Choice or Grammis award." Dloh cierekim 02:37, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
- Keep as worthy of recognition for achievements. Hyperbolick ( talk) 16:33, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. The article does indeed appear to meet the bar of WP:MUSICBIO, to which even the nominator agrees in discussion below. The article does need a bit of cleanup to remove some unsourced info. A Train talk 10:09, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Jean Johnson (singer)
- Jean Johnson (singer) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non-notable musician. Johnson is a backup and session singer who has had some minor success, but not to the level that rises to meet Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion. Claims that Johnson was nominated for a Grammy are not supported by reliable sources (and a nomination, without a win, would not meet the criteria anyway). Claims that her "work on [ Sandra Crouch's] album subsequently won the Grammy for Best Gospel Performance, Female" can also not be verified. (Crouch did win the Grammy; what is unverifiable is whether any credit for that win can go to Johnson.) WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 16:32, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- I would note that being nominated for a Grammy would be sufficient for the notability guidelines, as they state "Has won or been nominated for a major music award"(assuming they actually were). 331dot ( talk) 17:31, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- All that said, WikiDan is correct that it doesn't seem that this person was, at least according to what I call a reliable source.
Unless one is offered I would say delete as not meeting the notability guidelines.331dot ( talk) 17:45, 20 April 2017 (UTC) - Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (✉) 17:46, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (✉) 17:46, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- Delete Background vocalists are important, but they are not usually notable. Fails WP:MUSICBIO and WP:GNG. The article itself is promotional and poorly sourced, which is understandable since sources cannot be found (using the Google searches above). Walter Görlitz ( talk) 18:14, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
She is a Grammy nominated singer here https://books.google.com/books?id=tDYftTBTFyEC&pg=PA108&lpg=PA108&dq=jean+johnson+and+sandra+crouch+grammy&source=bl&ots=eX0yfzcF5X&sig=9k0mYxyfFb1zQICQYDcAtKrOJcs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwizodbQyLPTAhWFilQKHflwADUQ6AEIHTAB#v=onepage&q=jean%20johnson%20and%20sandra%20crouch%20grammy&f=false
Or what about the ever so popular Jet magazine. Oh wait u may be skeptical of them too - here -'
And here is bill board official newspaper sir https://books.google.com/books?id=ACQEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT63&dq=jean+johnson+and+sandra+crouch+grammy&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilmemZz7PTAhUJ64MKHcUDDjoQ6AEIIjAC#v=onepage&q=jean%20johnson%20and%20sandra%20crouch%20grammy&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keyonne TalentSupporter1 ( talk • contribs) 18:44, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- I looked at the Billboard magazine linked to above this post, and I did barely make Johnson's name out(under 'Best Soul Gospel Vocal Performance by a duo, group, choir, or chorus'). I'll leave it to others to decide if that is sufficient or not, but it does seem to be there. That doesn't change the other issues with the article itself, as described by Walter above. 331dot ( talk) 18:50, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Here is another article- you would be able to see it if u just hit the zoom in button on google as they put it there for that reason. Here is Jet magazine where she was projected to win...
https://books.google.com/books?id=NrMDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA58&dq=jean+johnson+completely+yes+jet&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjVx7ip4bPTAhXIqlQKHS4zAzkQ6AEIGjAA — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Keyonne TalentSupporter1 (
talk •
contribs) 19:25, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- Comment @
Keyonne TalentSupporter1: Taking your points one at a time:
- The book Uncloudy Days ( ISBN 9780879308414) notes that Sandra Crouch won a Grammy for her album We Sing Praises. It further notes that Johnson sang lead on one track of that album, "He's Worthy." It does not record that Johnson received any Grammy notice (nomination or win) for her participation in that album.
- The Jet article from January 27, 1986 does verify that Johnson was nominated, along with Sandra Crouch, for "Best Soul Gospel performance by a Duo, Group, Choir or Chorus" for the album Completely Yes. It does not verify that this album was favored to win in any particular way.
- The Billboard article verifies the same information.
- At best, we have a singer who was co-nominated, but did not win, a Grammy for a single album. Under WP:BLP1E, I'd say that we might allow a redirect to the Sandra Crouch article, with a mention of Johnson's name as co-nominee for Completely Yes. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 19:41, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- @
WikiDan61: it clearly says official Grammy nominations- you are just being difficult. You are an expert in reading so why can't you see that. I clearly see your point. She was nominated period. maybe if her last name was Streisand she wouldn't have this problem. Even sag Aftra recognizes her as such.
https://books.google.com/books?id=ACQEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT63&dq=jean+johnson+and+sandra+crouch+grammy&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilmemZz7PTAhUJ64MKHcUDDjoQ6AEIIjAC#v=onepage&q=jean%20johnson%20and%20sandra%20crouch%20grammy&f=false
- Comment @ Keyonne TalentSupporter1: What clearly says "official Grammy nominations"? (Just trying to clarify your point.) As I have said, I have no doubt that Johnson officially received a Grammy nomination. And as such, according to WP:MUSIC, she is presumed notable. But Wikipedia requires reliable sources to verify all of the information in an article. At this time, the only information that we can verify from reliable sources is that Johnson received a Grammy nomination for an album on which she appeared. That's not a lot to build an article on. Wikipedia practice in cases where people are notable only for a single event is to redirect the article to the event for which the person is notable. In this case, I recommend a redirect to Sandra Crouch. I have already expanded that article to include Johnson's co-nomination for the album Completely Yes, using the Jet article as a citation. Unless we can find other published sources that talk about Ms Johnson in more depth, there's not much more to say about her. Any details about her early life should be deleted as unverifiable, and her involvement as a session musician for various other albums do not appear to be notable. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 19:59, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
@ WikiDan61: Are you blind!?! It says in big bold letters 28th annual Grammy awards final nominations. Get real. You should just retire and get off here. She was nominated whether you like it or not and it constitutes a notable person page. Sorry Charley. She was one of the few blacks that broke pass that wall your people put up :)
- Please stop with the baseless racism accusations.
331dot (
talk) 20:17, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- @ Keyonne TalentSupporter1: I'm tapping out here. I've made my points. You've made yours. Any further debate between us would just lead to anger. Let's let others discuss. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 20:34, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- Please stop with the baseless racism accusations.
331dot (
talk) 20:17, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- Keep: Passes WP:MUSICBIO #8 for her Grammy nomination. The nomination in question was for Best Soul Gospel Performance by a Duo or Group, Choir or Chorus at the 1986 Annual Grammy Awards for Completely Yes. [1] St Anselm ( talk) 12:18, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 20:57, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 20:57, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Onel5969 TT me 23:04, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
- Delete winning an award makes someone notable, not just being nominated for it. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 06:27, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
- @ Johnpacklambert: As I state above, the notability criteria states that being nominated is sufficient for notability. 331dot ( talk) 07:56, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
- Comment: I've seen a few delete !votes, and I don't understand why this particular case would be an exception to WP:MUSICBIO. Anyone care to explain? St Anselm ( talk) 22:01, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
- Further comment: The OP is mistaken, of course, when it says "and a nomination, without a win, would not meet the criteria anyway". WP:MUSICBIO explicitly states that a Grammy nomination implies notability. St Anselm ( talk) 22:03, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
- Keep was nominated for a grammy. Despite statements here to the contrary, per WP:Music "Has won or been nominated for a major music award, such as a Grammy, Juno, Mercury, Choice or Grammis award." Dloh cierekim 02:37, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
- Keep as worthy of recognition for achievements. Hyperbolick ( talk) 16:33, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.