- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. I'm closing this early as we inch into SNOW territory. I think it's important to AGF of AFD nominators unless one sees a TREND of an editor focusing in on nominating articles from particular geographic regions unless they are guided by investigating a specific article creator's output. That said, this AFD does suffer from a problem that I see a lot in AFDLand which is a brief and weak nomination statement. Nominators should present an argument for deletion, not just policy page abbreviations. But, like I said, I see this too frequently in AFDs from veteran and new editors alike. it's important to demonstrate that a valid BEFORE has been done. It might have been done in this case but it's impossible to tell by this nomination. Liz Read! Talk! 22:54, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
Emmanuel Aluyor
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Emmanuel Aluyor ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails WP:NPROF and WP:GNG. - UtherSRG (talk) 21:39, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Academics and educators and Nigeria. UtherSRG (talk) 21:39, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Comment.
UtherSRG: Would you like to explain in more detail your argument for why you think he fails NPROF, given that our article lists him as vice chancellor for a university in Nigeria, where vice chancellor is the title used for heads of universities (
WP:NPROF#C6)? (As in the UK and elsewhere, the chancellor is a ceremonial title; the vice chancellor is the real head.) While I'm asking, can you also explain why you think his citation record
[1] with multiple triple-digit citation counts is not good enough for #C1? —
David Eppstein (
talk)
22:12, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
-
JoelleJay said it well: Is this really a major university? If not, that strikes out C6. -
UtherSRG
(talk)
12:11, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- It's the top public university in Nigeria and third overall.
Central and Adams (
talk)
15:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- Top in the country doesn't equate to major. It can mean there isn't any major university in the country. -
UtherSRG
(talk)
15:40, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- No major universities in Nigeria, the sixth most populous nation in the world? Good luck with that argument. The top university in Nigeria is not like the top university in Monaco -- its top university is major purely by virtue of being top in Nigeria. Your argument begins to sound like
WP:BIAS.
Central and Adams (
talk)
15:54, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- What is the rigorous definition of "major university"? Does EDSU meet that definition? -
UtherSRG
(talk)
15:58, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- It's a fallacy to assume that a "rigorous definition" is required for notability or even possible in any context. Why do you think we need such a thing or that such a thing can even exist? There's no sensible way to understand the phrase "major university" that doesn't include "top university in Nigeria."
Central and Adams (
talk)
16:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- There is no fallacy. "Major" has a meaning. If you include "top university in any country" then that could water down that definition. How does EDSU compare to any other university that would generally be considered "major"? Does it have the same standards of accreditation? The same level of research output?
top public university in Nigeria and third overall
can mean very little if there are only four universities in Nigeria. (There aren't, but I'm showing how your logic is weak.) - UtherSRG (talk) 17:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)- Equating "has a meaning" with "has a rigorous definition" is equivocation, another fallacy. This has been known since Wittgenstein's work on language games. But this conversation is getting too tangential for me and I'm content to let the closer decide at this point. Central and Adams ( talk) 17:24, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- There is no fallacy. "Major" has a meaning. If you include "top university in any country" then that could water down that definition. How does EDSU compare to any other university that would generally be considered "major"? Does it have the same standards of accreditation? The same level of research output?
- It's a fallacy to assume that a "rigorous definition" is required for notability or even possible in any context. Why do you think we need such a thing or that such a thing can even exist? There's no sensible way to understand the phrase "major university" that doesn't include "top university in Nigeria."
Central and Adams (
talk)
16:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- What is the rigorous definition of "major university"? Does EDSU meet that definition? -
UtherSRG
(talk)
15:58, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- No major universities in Nigeria, the sixth most populous nation in the world? Good luck with that argument. The top university in Nigeria is not like the top university in Monaco -- its top university is major purely by virtue of being top in Nigeria. Your argument begins to sound like
WP:BIAS.
Central and Adams (
talk)
15:54, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- It is not the "top university in Nigeria", it was the "best state university in open educational resources" in 2018. JoelleJay ( talk) 02:42, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- Top in the country doesn't equate to major. It can mean there isn't any major university in the country. -
UtherSRG
(talk)
15:40, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- It's the top public university in Nigeria and third overall.
Central and Adams (
talk)
15:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
-
JoelleJay said it well: Is this really a major university? If not, that strikes out C6. -
UtherSRG
(talk)
12:11, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep -- as the head of a major university satisfies WP:NPROF#C6, as noted by my colleague David Eppstein. Central and Adams ( talk) 22:53, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Science and Engineering. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 22:57, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep passes NPROF. Mccapra ( talk) 06:53, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep Is in the highest seat of a major university, although not meeting GNG passes NPROF. Toadette ( Let's discuss together!) 08:46, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. I would also like to know the reason behind
UtherSRG's decision to bring this topic to AFD again after I informed them
here that it met the
WP:NPROF#C6 when they moved it to the draft phase initially. Despite my explanation, they still insisted on bringing it to AFD again. Is there any other criteria that UtherSRG is using to make this decision?
Kaizenify (
talk)
18:10, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- I prefer the community to weigh in when there is a question of notability. Too often I've seen articles accepted from draft that are in the questionable range. -
UtherSRG
(talk)
18:18, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Is there a good-faith reason why your nomination statement did not mention that you had already been made aware of this, and did not elaborate on why you thought this criterion did not apply? —
David Eppstein (
talk)
18:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- See the conversation above. There's enough room for debate on whether NPROF#C6 applies. -
UtherSRG
(talk)
19:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- You are avoiding the question. Your nomination statement did not say that this was a possible issue, that you already knew about, on which there might be room for debate. It just stated flatly that he failed WP:PROF, potentially misleading other contributors into the false belief that you had searched for ways in which he might pass WP:PROF and found none that were even worthy of mention and debate. I have to assume per WP:AGF that it was not your intent to mislead contributors, so perhaps this should be a warning to be more careful in formulating future deletion nomination statements. — David Eppstein ( talk) 22:17, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- See the conversation above. There's enough room for debate on whether NPROF#C6 applies. -
UtherSRG
(talk)
19:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- Is there a good-faith reason why your nomination statement did not mention that you had already been made aware of this, and did not elaborate on why you thought this criterion did not apply? —
David Eppstein (
talk)
18:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- I prefer the community to weigh in when there is a question of notability. Too often I've seen articles accepted from draft that are in the questionable range. -
UtherSRG
(talk)
18:18, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Speedy keep: Clearly pass WP:NPROF Kaizenify ( talk) 18:11, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep meets academic notability guidelines. Note I have linked to the wikidata record and added the link to his SCOPUS record which shows healthy citations too: [2]. Resonant Distortion 19:31, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. Is EDSU actually a major, significant university in the sense expected by C6? It was only established in 2016, we don't have much to go on regarding the quality of its research output, and its establishment was controversial.
- JoelleJay ( talk) 23:36, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Comment He is not vice chancellor anymore, or better, he is holding on to his post after his term was finished, see this January 2024 news. If the article is kept, this information should be added. Broc ( talk) 13:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- Speedy keep: I had wondered the prompt for the AFD since the subject clearly passed WP: GNG and WP: PROF. Since the nominators main purpose is because they believe the chancellor is no more the vice chancellor. But the article and sources states he is still the VC. Besides, Notability cannot be permanent . There are also verified sources for his academic achievement for WP: NRV. EDSU basically is a major university so far it merited an enwiki article. Otuọcha ( talk) 19:49, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. I am convinced by Central & Adams' assertion that the university he heads or headed is the top public university in its (large) nation. If there is controversy over whether he still heads it, that cannot decrease his notability. Additionally he has a (weaker but still present) case for
WP:PROF#C1. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
22:20, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- @ David Eppstein, the article's claim of being a "top university" is rather misleading; the university ranked as the best state university in open educational resources, which is a metric related to availability of openly licensed and freely distributed course materials, not the quality of education or research output. I too was going to !vote speedy keep per C6 until I noticed the young age of the university, which seemed incongruent with a high overall ranking. It looks like EDSU is tied (with several other universities) for last place among Nigerian universities. JoelleJay ( talk) 02:53, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: I totally understand UtherSRG's confusion here, Edo State of Nigeria is underrepresented here on Wikipedia (Nigeria generally is). Anyway, this subject easily passes C1 and C6 of
WP:NPROF.
Vanderwaalforces (
talk)
18:39, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- Africa is still suffering from systematic bais, so this nominations and others i have seen since i came back is of no surprise to me. UthrrSRG nominated this article because he thought that Edo State University was not good enough like western universities [" Global Perspectives"]). All the best, Reading Beans 06:42, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. I'm closing this early as we inch into SNOW territory. I think it's important to AGF of AFD nominators unless one sees a TREND of an editor focusing in on nominating articles from particular geographic regions unless they are guided by investigating a specific article creator's output. That said, this AFD does suffer from a problem that I see a lot in AFDLand which is a brief and weak nomination statement. Nominators should present an argument for deletion, not just policy page abbreviations. But, like I said, I see this too frequently in AFDs from veteran and new editors alike. it's important to demonstrate that a valid BEFORE has been done. It might have been done in this case but it's impossible to tell by this nomination. Liz Read! Talk! 22:54, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
Emmanuel Aluyor
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Emmanuel Aluyor ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails WP:NPROF and WP:GNG. - UtherSRG (talk) 21:39, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Academics and educators and Nigeria. UtherSRG (talk) 21:39, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Comment.
UtherSRG: Would you like to explain in more detail your argument for why you think he fails NPROF, given that our article lists him as vice chancellor for a university in Nigeria, where vice chancellor is the title used for heads of universities (
WP:NPROF#C6)? (As in the UK and elsewhere, the chancellor is a ceremonial title; the vice chancellor is the real head.) While I'm asking, can you also explain why you think his citation record
[1] with multiple triple-digit citation counts is not good enough for #C1? —
David Eppstein (
talk)
22:12, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
-
JoelleJay said it well: Is this really a major university? If not, that strikes out C6. -
UtherSRG
(talk)
12:11, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- It's the top public university in Nigeria and third overall.
Central and Adams (
talk)
15:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- Top in the country doesn't equate to major. It can mean there isn't any major university in the country. -
UtherSRG
(talk)
15:40, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- No major universities in Nigeria, the sixth most populous nation in the world? Good luck with that argument. The top university in Nigeria is not like the top university in Monaco -- its top university is major purely by virtue of being top in Nigeria. Your argument begins to sound like
WP:BIAS.
Central and Adams (
talk)
15:54, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- What is the rigorous definition of "major university"? Does EDSU meet that definition? -
UtherSRG
(talk)
15:58, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- It's a fallacy to assume that a "rigorous definition" is required for notability or even possible in any context. Why do you think we need such a thing or that such a thing can even exist? There's no sensible way to understand the phrase "major university" that doesn't include "top university in Nigeria."
Central and Adams (
talk)
16:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- There is no fallacy. "Major" has a meaning. If you include "top university in any country" then that could water down that definition. How does EDSU compare to any other university that would generally be considered "major"? Does it have the same standards of accreditation? The same level of research output?
top public university in Nigeria and third overall
can mean very little if there are only four universities in Nigeria. (There aren't, but I'm showing how your logic is weak.) - UtherSRG (talk) 17:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)- Equating "has a meaning" with "has a rigorous definition" is equivocation, another fallacy. This has been known since Wittgenstein's work on language games. But this conversation is getting too tangential for me and I'm content to let the closer decide at this point. Central and Adams ( talk) 17:24, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- There is no fallacy. "Major" has a meaning. If you include "top university in any country" then that could water down that definition. How does EDSU compare to any other university that would generally be considered "major"? Does it have the same standards of accreditation? The same level of research output?
- It's a fallacy to assume that a "rigorous definition" is required for notability or even possible in any context. Why do you think we need such a thing or that such a thing can even exist? There's no sensible way to understand the phrase "major university" that doesn't include "top university in Nigeria."
Central and Adams (
talk)
16:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- What is the rigorous definition of "major university"? Does EDSU meet that definition? -
UtherSRG
(talk)
15:58, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- No major universities in Nigeria, the sixth most populous nation in the world? Good luck with that argument. The top university in Nigeria is not like the top university in Monaco -- its top university is major purely by virtue of being top in Nigeria. Your argument begins to sound like
WP:BIAS.
Central and Adams (
talk)
15:54, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- It is not the "top university in Nigeria", it was the "best state university in open educational resources" in 2018. JoelleJay ( talk) 02:42, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- Top in the country doesn't equate to major. It can mean there isn't any major university in the country. -
UtherSRG
(talk)
15:40, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- It's the top public university in Nigeria and third overall.
Central and Adams (
talk)
15:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
-
JoelleJay said it well: Is this really a major university? If not, that strikes out C6. -
UtherSRG
(talk)
12:11, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep -- as the head of a major university satisfies WP:NPROF#C6, as noted by my colleague David Eppstein. Central and Adams ( talk) 22:53, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Science and Engineering. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 22:57, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep passes NPROF. Mccapra ( talk) 06:53, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep Is in the highest seat of a major university, although not meeting GNG passes NPROF. Toadette ( Let's discuss together!) 08:46, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. I would also like to know the reason behind
UtherSRG's decision to bring this topic to AFD again after I informed them
here that it met the
WP:NPROF#C6 when they moved it to the draft phase initially. Despite my explanation, they still insisted on bringing it to AFD again. Is there any other criteria that UtherSRG is using to make this decision?
Kaizenify (
talk)
18:10, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- I prefer the community to weigh in when there is a question of notability. Too often I've seen articles accepted from draft that are in the questionable range. -
UtherSRG
(talk)
18:18, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Is there a good-faith reason why your nomination statement did not mention that you had already been made aware of this, and did not elaborate on why you thought this criterion did not apply? —
David Eppstein (
talk)
18:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- See the conversation above. There's enough room for debate on whether NPROF#C6 applies. -
UtherSRG
(talk)
19:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- You are avoiding the question. Your nomination statement did not say that this was a possible issue, that you already knew about, on which there might be room for debate. It just stated flatly that he failed WP:PROF, potentially misleading other contributors into the false belief that you had searched for ways in which he might pass WP:PROF and found none that were even worthy of mention and debate. I have to assume per WP:AGF that it was not your intent to mislead contributors, so perhaps this should be a warning to be more careful in formulating future deletion nomination statements. — David Eppstein ( talk) 22:17, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- See the conversation above. There's enough room for debate on whether NPROF#C6 applies. -
UtherSRG
(talk)
19:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- Is there a good-faith reason why your nomination statement did not mention that you had already been made aware of this, and did not elaborate on why you thought this criterion did not apply? —
David Eppstein (
talk)
18:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- I prefer the community to weigh in when there is a question of notability. Too often I've seen articles accepted from draft that are in the questionable range. -
UtherSRG
(talk)
18:18, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Speedy keep: Clearly pass WP:NPROF Kaizenify ( talk) 18:11, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep meets academic notability guidelines. Note I have linked to the wikidata record and added the link to his SCOPUS record which shows healthy citations too: [2]. Resonant Distortion 19:31, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. Is EDSU actually a major, significant university in the sense expected by C6? It was only established in 2016, we don't have much to go on regarding the quality of its research output, and its establishment was controversial.
- JoelleJay ( talk) 23:36, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Comment He is not vice chancellor anymore, or better, he is holding on to his post after his term was finished, see this January 2024 news. If the article is kept, this information should be added. Broc ( talk) 13:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- Speedy keep: I had wondered the prompt for the AFD since the subject clearly passed WP: GNG and WP: PROF. Since the nominators main purpose is because they believe the chancellor is no more the vice chancellor. But the article and sources states he is still the VC. Besides, Notability cannot be permanent . There are also verified sources for his academic achievement for WP: NRV. EDSU basically is a major university so far it merited an enwiki article. Otuọcha ( talk) 19:49, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. I am convinced by Central & Adams' assertion that the university he heads or headed is the top public university in its (large) nation. If there is controversy over whether he still heads it, that cannot decrease his notability. Additionally he has a (weaker but still present) case for
WP:PROF#C1. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
22:20, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- @ David Eppstein, the article's claim of being a "top university" is rather misleading; the university ranked as the best state university in open educational resources, which is a metric related to availability of openly licensed and freely distributed course materials, not the quality of education or research output. I too was going to !vote speedy keep per C6 until I noticed the young age of the university, which seemed incongruent with a high overall ranking. It looks like EDSU is tied (with several other universities) for last place among Nigerian universities. JoelleJay ( talk) 02:53, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: I totally understand UtherSRG's confusion here, Edo State of Nigeria is underrepresented here on Wikipedia (Nigeria generally is). Anyway, this subject easily passes C1 and C6 of
WP:NPROF.
Vanderwaalforces (
talk)
18:39, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- Africa is still suffering from systematic bais, so this nominations and others i have seen since i came back is of no surprise to me. UthrrSRG nominated this article because he thought that Edo State University was not good enough like western universities [" Global Perspectives"]). All the best, Reading Beans 06:42, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.