- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was draftify. Any recreation should go through WP:AFC to prevent G4 deletion. Sandstein 15:22, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
AfDs for this article:
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Doug Kovacs ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Not a G4, but factors don't appear to have appreciably changed since Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Doug Kovacs w/r/t his career.
While reviews of games on which he 's worked have been added, I don't see that it establishes notability for Kovacs nor that the award meets WP:BIO. Bringing it here for further discussion. Star Mississippi 15:43, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Artists, and Games. Star Mississippi 15:43, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep if sources are found to meet the GNG, otherwise move back to Draft so that I can work on improving it as per the previous AFD. I did submit it to AFC, probably a bit prematurely, based on some sources that I did add since the last one, but I am happy to continue working on the draft to see what else I can add.
BOZ (
talk)
16:40, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- I would have no issue with a return to draft space if the discussion closes in that direction or even delete. I just don't think it was ready yet to come back. @
Cyberwolf thought otherwise, but no worries we can resolve it here.
Star
Mississippi
18:36, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- I see him having his own award as notable but it may not be
•Cyberwolf•
talk?
19:17, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- That's fair, and I appreciate the vote of confidence. I nominated it for AFC to see if a reviewer felt that I had added enough, but if it's not ready then I'm fine with continuing to work on it. BOZ ( talk) 19:40, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- Cyberwolf, I don't want to come down harshly on you, and I hope no one else does either, but I would suggest that you might benefit from working with experienced AFC reviewers so you can get more experienced with the process too. :) BOZ ( talk) 19:43, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- I see him having his own award as notable but it may not be
•Cyberwolf•
talk?
19:17, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- I would have no issue with a return to draft space if the discussion closes in that direction or even delete. I just don't think it was ready yet to come back. @
Cyberwolf thought otherwise, but no worries we can resolve it here.
Star
Mississippi
18:36, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Illinois-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 18:42, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep I support a move back to draft space. Guinness323 ( talk) 17:16, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
- KEEP Pardon a totally new contributor to the conversation here in terms of formatting, etc. In terms of general notability for artists https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:ARTIST&redirect=no
- 3) The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the primary subject of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews, or of an independent and notable work (for example, a book, film, or television series, but usually not a single episode of a television series);
- If edits are being considered in terms of notability the following may be useful for referencing?
- Doug's work is considered to be the visual art "face" of the table-top role playing game Dungeon Crawl Classics https://goodman-games.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/MM19_July2014_GoodmanGames1.pdf and has consistently represented the brand since it's inception in 2012 with cover and internal illustrations. A secondary source directly from Goodman Games artist spotlight https://goodman-games.com/blog/2017/10/09/the-artists-of-goodman-games/
- He has also worked extensively with Wizards of the Coast on Dungeons and Dragons ( https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?artist=Doug%20Kovacs) - this is a simple list of books he has contributed to, I am not certain how to best reference a searched list vs each book individually? Ohheytinyguy ( talk) 19:48, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
- Delete - I don't think that the oeuvre described above actually meets WP:NARTIST #3 absent independent coverage specifically analyzing Kovacs' work; meanwhile, the interview with Goodman Games is a scraping-the-barrel kind of source notability-wise and does not bode well for the existence of further coverage. I'm not opposed to work continuing in draft space, but no one has indicated why we should expect additional coverage to materialize. signed, Rosguill talk 20:01, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Owen× ☎ 16:32, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
- draftify honestly it's pretty close. I'm a bit shocked no major gaming publication has done a spotlight of him--that would easily push it over. But yeah, sending back to draft looks to be consistent with our inclusion guidelines. Hobit ( talk) 14:47, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- Draftify Agree with nominator. The article was not ready for mainspace yet. Chekidalum ( talk) 11:07, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was draftify. Any recreation should go through WP:AFC to prevent G4 deletion. Sandstein 15:22, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
AfDs for this article:
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Doug Kovacs ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Not a G4, but factors don't appear to have appreciably changed since Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Doug Kovacs w/r/t his career.
While reviews of games on which he 's worked have been added, I don't see that it establishes notability for Kovacs nor that the award meets WP:BIO. Bringing it here for further discussion. Star Mississippi 15:43, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Artists, and Games. Star Mississippi 15:43, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep if sources are found to meet the GNG, otherwise move back to Draft so that I can work on improving it as per the previous AFD. I did submit it to AFC, probably a bit prematurely, based on some sources that I did add since the last one, but I am happy to continue working on the draft to see what else I can add.
BOZ (
talk)
16:40, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- I would have no issue with a return to draft space if the discussion closes in that direction or even delete. I just don't think it was ready yet to come back. @
Cyberwolf thought otherwise, but no worries we can resolve it here.
Star
Mississippi
18:36, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- I see him having his own award as notable but it may not be
•Cyberwolf•
talk?
19:17, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- That's fair, and I appreciate the vote of confidence. I nominated it for AFC to see if a reviewer felt that I had added enough, but if it's not ready then I'm fine with continuing to work on it. BOZ ( talk) 19:40, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- Cyberwolf, I don't want to come down harshly on you, and I hope no one else does either, but I would suggest that you might benefit from working with experienced AFC reviewers so you can get more experienced with the process too. :) BOZ ( talk) 19:43, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- I see him having his own award as notable but it may not be
•Cyberwolf•
talk?
19:17, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- I would have no issue with a return to draft space if the discussion closes in that direction or even delete. I just don't think it was ready yet to come back. @
Cyberwolf thought otherwise, but no worries we can resolve it here.
Star
Mississippi
18:36, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Illinois-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 18:42, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep I support a move back to draft space. Guinness323 ( talk) 17:16, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
- KEEP Pardon a totally new contributor to the conversation here in terms of formatting, etc. In terms of general notability for artists https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:ARTIST&redirect=no
- 3) The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the primary subject of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews, or of an independent and notable work (for example, a book, film, or television series, but usually not a single episode of a television series);
- If edits are being considered in terms of notability the following may be useful for referencing?
- Doug's work is considered to be the visual art "face" of the table-top role playing game Dungeon Crawl Classics https://goodman-games.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/MM19_July2014_GoodmanGames1.pdf and has consistently represented the brand since it's inception in 2012 with cover and internal illustrations. A secondary source directly from Goodman Games artist spotlight https://goodman-games.com/blog/2017/10/09/the-artists-of-goodman-games/
- He has also worked extensively with Wizards of the Coast on Dungeons and Dragons ( https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?artist=Doug%20Kovacs) - this is a simple list of books he has contributed to, I am not certain how to best reference a searched list vs each book individually? Ohheytinyguy ( talk) 19:48, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
- Delete - I don't think that the oeuvre described above actually meets WP:NARTIST #3 absent independent coverage specifically analyzing Kovacs' work; meanwhile, the interview with Goodman Games is a scraping-the-barrel kind of source notability-wise and does not bode well for the existence of further coverage. I'm not opposed to work continuing in draft space, but no one has indicated why we should expect additional coverage to materialize. signed, Rosguill talk 20:01, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Owen× ☎ 16:32, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
- draftify honestly it's pretty close. I'm a bit shocked no major gaming publication has done a spotlight of him--that would easily push it over. But yeah, sending back to draft looks to be consistent with our inclusion guidelines. Hobit ( talk) 14:47, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- Draftify Agree with nominator. The article was not ready for mainspace yet. Chekidalum ( talk) 11:07, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.