The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete.
Kurykh (
talk) 01:02, 12 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Note: This debate has been mentioned at
User_talk:PiCo (reason: editor who suggested that it be deleted)
PaleoNeonate (
talk) 19:13, 4 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Weak Delete One of the comments from the previous AfD discussion is informative: "a fairly efficient way of showing the relationship between the progeny of Adam and Eve as stated in the Bible; this one goes 55 generations, although there's room for more (Jesus was at the 76th generation)". Other comments were that it is well referenced, granted, it's all to biblical references. However this nominator's argument is more compelling, particularly pointing to WP:NOTGENEALOGY and the other, similar articles that exist. My concern is that it's not complete and likely never would be and essentially, it's an aggregation of genealogies found in various locations in the Christian canon. My final point is from a Christian point of view:
1 Timothy 1:4 argues against this sort of article.
Walter Görlitz (
talk) 19:22, 4 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Rename to "Descendants of Adam and Eve according to the Bible" or something like that and then keep.
Debresser (
talk) 19:28, 4 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete. This could be an interesting topic if it discussed how different genealogies were derived, significance of the genealogies, and differences between them. But as a simple list, it's not encyclopedic.
Pburka (
talk) 19:40, 4 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Strong Delete - The original nom is correct in all criticisms, but let's add a big one - it is one monstrous pile of WP:NOR violations. This is not what Wikipedia is for.
Agricolae (
talk) 19:45, 4 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Weak deleteMerge to
Genealogies in the Bible. I think splitting the genealogy into more portions would make for a more useful and more readable page. Looking at
Genealogies of Genesis, I imagine it might be nice to also have
Genealogies of Chronicles, but as nom points out,
Abraham's family tree and
Generations of Noah cover some (most? all?) of that. I'd like to note that this article and Genealogies in the Bible were created by the same editor, @
AMK152:, with Genealogies in the Bible about two years older.
Smmurphy(
Talk) 20:03, 4 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Redirect to
Genealogies_of_Genesis#Genealogies_of_Cain_and_Seth. List and its selection seem to violate
the policy against original research, as well as being redundant with existing articles. The note at the top about Cain is inappropriate for this encyclopedia, and the list then goes on to list him and his descendants anyway! The layout is really hard to read, and doesn't do a good job of informing one about the precise relationship as well as the layout used at
Genealogies_of_Genesis#Genealogies_of_Cain_and_Seth and
Abraham's_family_tree#Family_tree does. It glosses over any inconsistencies, which is part of the OR problem. Since this topic is adequately covered by other articles, my !vote is to redirect rather than delete; although I'm not sure how plausible a search term it is. ~ ONUnicorn(
Talk|
Contribs)problem solving 20:04, 4 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete: I was the nominator of the previous AfD back in 2010, and
Walter Görlitz is right - my argument then doesn't sound particularly convincing. But the list has not been fixed in the last seven years, and as
Mangoe said in the last discussion, according to the Bible, everyone is descended from Adam and Eve, so the list makes no sense.
StAnselm (
talk) 23:57, 4 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete -- what the what? This does not look like something one would expect to find in an encyclopedia. I don't see a need to redirect, as the article history is not worth preserving.
K.e.coffman (
talk) 01:39, 5 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete - according to the bible, everyone is descended from Adam and Eve, and a "List of People" is not encyclopedic in nature.
Power~enwiki (
talk) 06:43, 5 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete - unencyclopediac, relies entirely on a primary source, and would be just about infinite if completion were attempted.
PiCo (
talk) 07:22, 5 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Incubation - poor standardized according to WP. This article serves for me as a single and simple entry-point to Bible genealogies.
It4history (
talk) 07:37, 5 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Drafts would usually be expected to eventually become mainspace articles I think, but if you cannot succeed to have it incubated, possibly that you might succeed to get it
userfied (I'm still unsure, but a possible idea). It may be a good idea to copy its source code, in case these options are unavailable, in which case you may want to move it to another Wikimedia or compatible software based Wiki. A way to download its complete Wikisource is to use
this link. —
PaleoNeonate — 07:57, 5 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Another note, I forgot to mention: if it becomes a blanked redirect, access to it will remain possible through a permalink, such as
Special:permalink/778474483, but you would no longer be able to modify it. —
PaleoNeonate — 08:02, 5 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Neither draft nor user-space was ever intended to serve as web host for material deemed inappropriate for the mainspace.
Agricolae (
talk) 08:31, 5 May 2017 (UTC)reply
If userfication can be done, a possible reason may be if the material is useful as an aid to edit Wikipedia (relevant to Wikipedia). Agricolae may be right that it's unlikely to be considered useful for Wikipedia. There is normally a delay of about seven days before the closer takes a decision based on the arguments and consensus of this discussion. I believe that it's possible to request userfication at
WP:UNDELETE after an article is deleted, but it seems to not be possible for articles which were deleted through AfD (the current process). Apparently there is a list of administrators who may accept to receive userfication requests
here.
WP:AFDEQ has a warning about moving an article during the AfD process, I'm not sure if that can sometimes be done uncontroversially. I'm also wondering if Wikidata could not be a place were this type of list would be more adequate. If so, it may be "transwiki-able". —
PaleoNeonate — 09:12, 5 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete - Original nomination is correct in all criticisms, with
WP:NOR as well. Since the relevant related topics are covered in other articles, there is no need to move to draft or further develop. Redirect to
Genealogies of Genesis. I see no future usefulness or reason for this to be included in userspace.
Sondra.kinsey (
talk) 14:39, 5 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Note I am not here to defend this article, merely to point out that Biblical genealogy is a serious topic, take a look at
Japheth, for an example of this sort of article done fairly well. A good article tracing the significance of claims of descent form Adam and Eve would be a useful addition to the project.
E.M.Gregory (
talk) 16:13, 5 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete This has
WP:NOR issues and is just a mess. Not sure how this was added let alone supported on Wikipedia.
ContentEditman (
talk) 00:22, 6 May 2017 (UTC)reply
I was told that a lot has changed since 2010 (time of the last nomination), when I initially wondered if this would be worth nominating again. Also, I think that various !votes of the last nomination mostly objected to the nominator's argument about it being useless (the nominator reason may have been filed hastily perhaps). —
PaleoNeonate — 00:31, 6 May 2017 (UTC)reply
I have no objection to userfying if
User:AMK152 wants it. Otherwise, delete.
Srnec (
talk) 18:23, 6 May 2017 (UTC)reply
I know one of the concerns was that it was incomplete and needed work, which I could work on, but my schedule is hectic right now. Either put it in "User:AMK152/", "Draft;" namespace, or export it to
my test wiki. Certainly the subject of Biblical genealogies is notable, much like that of European royalty, and such Biblical genealogies are covered in other articles, just not in a complete form. — AMK152(
t •
c) 00:48, 7 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Doing more Original Research is not going to fix a page that is entirely Original Research. As to comparing to the pages of genealogy for European royalty, see
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.
Agricolae (
talk) 03:45, 7 May 2017 (UTC)reply
"Descendants of Adam and Eve" is not a biblical genealogy.
PiCo (
talk) 01:38, 7 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Given that every single reference given comes from the Bible, how is that not biblical genealogy?
Agricolae (
talk) 03:45, 7 May 2017 (UTC)reply
The biblical genealogies are lists given in various books, with various purposes. One of them, Genesis 5:1, is indeed called the "generations" of Adam (not Eve), but that's the only one. It links then to the other "generations" in Genesis, but they continue only to the entry into Egypt. For the period after that it's possible to trace two lines, one for David and the other for the Aaronid priests, through to the end of Kings for the line of David and much further for the priests, but these can't be called a genealogy of Adam and Eve as that isn't their purpose and, more importantly, because it merges information that's given in discrete sources. It's an interesting study, but misleading to treat the various lines as if they were intended to deal with all humanity in some way.
PiCo (
talk) 07:47, 7 May 2017 (UTC)reply
I also wondered why you said that it was not Biblical genealogy, but issues like those you mentioned are also why I included "does not distinguish various traditions", so I understand what you mean. —
PaleoNeonate — 08:22, 7 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Redirect (or rather split) -- This seems to be based solidly on the Hebrew Bible. This is thus not wholly OR, assuming it correctly reproduces Genesis. "Other traditions" are unlikely to depend on any ancient sources whatever, though I appreciate Islam may have a separate view. A lot of the names are blue so that a list article is potentially valid. However, this needs to be split into the Descendants of Adam, which is probably merely a redirect to the Cain and Seth article; descendants of Noah (since the Bible assumes all other antediluvians drowned); descendants of Abraham (or perhaps a generation or two earlier to include cousins, such as Laban and Nahor); Aaronic priesthood (possibly two lines); ancestry of David (back to Judah). I suspect that many of these articles exist so that there is nothing to create. I am surprised how many blue links there are in the list, and wonder whether a wholesale cull is not needed of articles on people who are only recorded in the genealogies in 1 Chron. 1-7.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:54, 7 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Various somewhat contradicting traditions are found in the Torah itself. Making them all appear like one consistent line may perhaps be more synthesis than original research however, I'm not sure. —
PaleoNeonate — 23:19, 7 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Not a secondary source in sight, making it all OR.
Agricolae (
talk) 00:26, 8 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete per
WP:NOTGENEALOGY and pretty much all the above comments. An unencyclopedic mess of an article.
Ajf773 (
talk) 08:03, 8 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete per nomination. Even on its own terms, the article is misleading. It does not present "the" genealogy of these figures according to the Bible. There is a tremendous amount of variation between the various genealogies scattered about in the Bible, and so many judgment calls are required in trying to synthesize them that any proposed super-genealogy will just be presenting someone's speculative attempt to synthesize it all. This problem exists to the point of being insurmountable even if we just confine ourselves to the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible. Once you add in the New Testament, with its reliance on the Septuagint (are we going to bring the Septuagint into this too?) you open up unfixable can of worms. I'm all for people trying to make their own super-genealogies off Wikipedia, but presenting this as if it is simply "what the Bible says" is wrong.
Alephb (
talk) 16:22, 8 May 2017 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete.
Kurykh (
talk) 01:02, 12 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Note: This debate has been mentioned at
User_talk:PiCo (reason: editor who suggested that it be deleted)
PaleoNeonate (
talk) 19:13, 4 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Weak Delete One of the comments from the previous AfD discussion is informative: "a fairly efficient way of showing the relationship between the progeny of Adam and Eve as stated in the Bible; this one goes 55 generations, although there's room for more (Jesus was at the 76th generation)". Other comments were that it is well referenced, granted, it's all to biblical references. However this nominator's argument is more compelling, particularly pointing to WP:NOTGENEALOGY and the other, similar articles that exist. My concern is that it's not complete and likely never would be and essentially, it's an aggregation of genealogies found in various locations in the Christian canon. My final point is from a Christian point of view:
1 Timothy 1:4 argues against this sort of article.
Walter Görlitz (
talk) 19:22, 4 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Rename to "Descendants of Adam and Eve according to the Bible" or something like that and then keep.
Debresser (
talk) 19:28, 4 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete. This could be an interesting topic if it discussed how different genealogies were derived, significance of the genealogies, and differences between them. But as a simple list, it's not encyclopedic.
Pburka (
talk) 19:40, 4 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Strong Delete - The original nom is correct in all criticisms, but let's add a big one - it is one monstrous pile of WP:NOR violations. This is not what Wikipedia is for.
Agricolae (
talk) 19:45, 4 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Weak deleteMerge to
Genealogies in the Bible. I think splitting the genealogy into more portions would make for a more useful and more readable page. Looking at
Genealogies of Genesis, I imagine it might be nice to also have
Genealogies of Chronicles, but as nom points out,
Abraham's family tree and
Generations of Noah cover some (most? all?) of that. I'd like to note that this article and Genealogies in the Bible were created by the same editor, @
AMK152:, with Genealogies in the Bible about two years older.
Smmurphy(
Talk) 20:03, 4 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Redirect to
Genealogies_of_Genesis#Genealogies_of_Cain_and_Seth. List and its selection seem to violate
the policy against original research, as well as being redundant with existing articles. The note at the top about Cain is inappropriate for this encyclopedia, and the list then goes on to list him and his descendants anyway! The layout is really hard to read, and doesn't do a good job of informing one about the precise relationship as well as the layout used at
Genealogies_of_Genesis#Genealogies_of_Cain_and_Seth and
Abraham's_family_tree#Family_tree does. It glosses over any inconsistencies, which is part of the OR problem. Since this topic is adequately covered by other articles, my !vote is to redirect rather than delete; although I'm not sure how plausible a search term it is. ~ ONUnicorn(
Talk|
Contribs)problem solving 20:04, 4 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete: I was the nominator of the previous AfD back in 2010, and
Walter Görlitz is right - my argument then doesn't sound particularly convincing. But the list has not been fixed in the last seven years, and as
Mangoe said in the last discussion, according to the Bible, everyone is descended from Adam and Eve, so the list makes no sense.
StAnselm (
talk) 23:57, 4 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete -- what the what? This does not look like something one would expect to find in an encyclopedia. I don't see a need to redirect, as the article history is not worth preserving.
K.e.coffman (
talk) 01:39, 5 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete - according to the bible, everyone is descended from Adam and Eve, and a "List of People" is not encyclopedic in nature.
Power~enwiki (
talk) 06:43, 5 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete - unencyclopediac, relies entirely on a primary source, and would be just about infinite if completion were attempted.
PiCo (
talk) 07:22, 5 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Incubation - poor standardized according to WP. This article serves for me as a single and simple entry-point to Bible genealogies.
It4history (
talk) 07:37, 5 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Drafts would usually be expected to eventually become mainspace articles I think, but if you cannot succeed to have it incubated, possibly that you might succeed to get it
userfied (I'm still unsure, but a possible idea). It may be a good idea to copy its source code, in case these options are unavailable, in which case you may want to move it to another Wikimedia or compatible software based Wiki. A way to download its complete Wikisource is to use
this link. —
PaleoNeonate — 07:57, 5 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Another note, I forgot to mention: if it becomes a blanked redirect, access to it will remain possible through a permalink, such as
Special:permalink/778474483, but you would no longer be able to modify it. —
PaleoNeonate — 08:02, 5 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Neither draft nor user-space was ever intended to serve as web host for material deemed inappropriate for the mainspace.
Agricolae (
talk) 08:31, 5 May 2017 (UTC)reply
If userfication can be done, a possible reason may be if the material is useful as an aid to edit Wikipedia (relevant to Wikipedia). Agricolae may be right that it's unlikely to be considered useful for Wikipedia. There is normally a delay of about seven days before the closer takes a decision based on the arguments and consensus of this discussion. I believe that it's possible to request userfication at
WP:UNDELETE after an article is deleted, but it seems to not be possible for articles which were deleted through AfD (the current process). Apparently there is a list of administrators who may accept to receive userfication requests
here.
WP:AFDEQ has a warning about moving an article during the AfD process, I'm not sure if that can sometimes be done uncontroversially. I'm also wondering if Wikidata could not be a place were this type of list would be more adequate. If so, it may be "transwiki-able". —
PaleoNeonate — 09:12, 5 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete - Original nomination is correct in all criticisms, with
WP:NOR as well. Since the relevant related topics are covered in other articles, there is no need to move to draft or further develop. Redirect to
Genealogies of Genesis. I see no future usefulness or reason for this to be included in userspace.
Sondra.kinsey (
talk) 14:39, 5 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Note I am not here to defend this article, merely to point out that Biblical genealogy is a serious topic, take a look at
Japheth, for an example of this sort of article done fairly well. A good article tracing the significance of claims of descent form Adam and Eve would be a useful addition to the project.
E.M.Gregory (
talk) 16:13, 5 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete This has
WP:NOR issues and is just a mess. Not sure how this was added let alone supported on Wikipedia.
ContentEditman (
talk) 00:22, 6 May 2017 (UTC)reply
I was told that a lot has changed since 2010 (time of the last nomination), when I initially wondered if this would be worth nominating again. Also, I think that various !votes of the last nomination mostly objected to the nominator's argument about it being useless (the nominator reason may have been filed hastily perhaps). —
PaleoNeonate — 00:31, 6 May 2017 (UTC)reply
I have no objection to userfying if
User:AMK152 wants it. Otherwise, delete.
Srnec (
talk) 18:23, 6 May 2017 (UTC)reply
I know one of the concerns was that it was incomplete and needed work, which I could work on, but my schedule is hectic right now. Either put it in "User:AMK152/", "Draft;" namespace, or export it to
my test wiki. Certainly the subject of Biblical genealogies is notable, much like that of European royalty, and such Biblical genealogies are covered in other articles, just not in a complete form. — AMK152(
t •
c) 00:48, 7 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Doing more Original Research is not going to fix a page that is entirely Original Research. As to comparing to the pages of genealogy for European royalty, see
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.
Agricolae (
talk) 03:45, 7 May 2017 (UTC)reply
"Descendants of Adam and Eve" is not a biblical genealogy.
PiCo (
talk) 01:38, 7 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Given that every single reference given comes from the Bible, how is that not biblical genealogy?
Agricolae (
talk) 03:45, 7 May 2017 (UTC)reply
The biblical genealogies are lists given in various books, with various purposes. One of them, Genesis 5:1, is indeed called the "generations" of Adam (not Eve), but that's the only one. It links then to the other "generations" in Genesis, but they continue only to the entry into Egypt. For the period after that it's possible to trace two lines, one for David and the other for the Aaronid priests, through to the end of Kings for the line of David and much further for the priests, but these can't be called a genealogy of Adam and Eve as that isn't their purpose and, more importantly, because it merges information that's given in discrete sources. It's an interesting study, but misleading to treat the various lines as if they were intended to deal with all humanity in some way.
PiCo (
talk) 07:47, 7 May 2017 (UTC)reply
I also wondered why you said that it was not Biblical genealogy, but issues like those you mentioned are also why I included "does not distinguish various traditions", so I understand what you mean. —
PaleoNeonate — 08:22, 7 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Redirect (or rather split) -- This seems to be based solidly on the Hebrew Bible. This is thus not wholly OR, assuming it correctly reproduces Genesis. "Other traditions" are unlikely to depend on any ancient sources whatever, though I appreciate Islam may have a separate view. A lot of the names are blue so that a list article is potentially valid. However, this needs to be split into the Descendants of Adam, which is probably merely a redirect to the Cain and Seth article; descendants of Noah (since the Bible assumes all other antediluvians drowned); descendants of Abraham (or perhaps a generation or two earlier to include cousins, such as Laban and Nahor); Aaronic priesthood (possibly two lines); ancestry of David (back to Judah). I suspect that many of these articles exist so that there is nothing to create. I am surprised how many blue links there are in the list, and wonder whether a wholesale cull is not needed of articles on people who are only recorded in the genealogies in 1 Chron. 1-7.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:54, 7 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Various somewhat contradicting traditions are found in the Torah itself. Making them all appear like one consistent line may perhaps be more synthesis than original research however, I'm not sure. —
PaleoNeonate — 23:19, 7 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Not a secondary source in sight, making it all OR.
Agricolae (
talk) 00:26, 8 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete per
WP:NOTGENEALOGY and pretty much all the above comments. An unencyclopedic mess of an article.
Ajf773 (
talk) 08:03, 8 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete per nomination. Even on its own terms, the article is misleading. It does not present "the" genealogy of these figures according to the Bible. There is a tremendous amount of variation between the various genealogies scattered about in the Bible, and so many judgment calls are required in trying to synthesize them that any proposed super-genealogy will just be presenting someone's speculative attempt to synthesize it all. This problem exists to the point of being insurmountable even if we just confine ourselves to the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible. Once you add in the New Testament, with its reliance on the Septuagint (are we going to bring the Septuagint into this too?) you open up unfixable can of worms. I'm all for people trying to make their own super-genealogies off Wikipedia, but presenting this as if it is simply "what the Bible says" is wrong.
Alephb (
talk) 16:22, 8 May 2017 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.