The result was delete. MBisanz talk 00:16, 1 February 2013 (UTC) reply
Toriello seems to be an incredible person. Unfortunately, none of his accomplishments can be independently verified. All citations of significant facts come from Paradoxxmedia, a website that claims itself part of the "United Beings Project" that this article clearly states is a project of Toriello himself. In other words, Toriello himself is the source of all information about himself. No news sources can be found to verify any of these facts independently. The only thing Toriello can be verified as is a named director of 3 corporations in the UK, and as president of a shadowy organization called COSINT CAMEROUN, an organization purportedly dedicated to the improvement of health in Cameroon, but whose website is woefully empty of any information. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 13:52, 16 January 2013 (UTC) reply
Questions: are reputed printed-media newspaper considered an independent source and an eligible criterion of data verification? If yes, are these media printed format accepted even if not verifiable from internet because removed from the web archives of the issuer networks, or in other words, in form of original printed newspaper? If yes, then, the fact that these printed newspapers are not published in the net, it does not mean that these are not a valid independent source of data verification. The solution here is simple, if this is the case: where to submit the original printed newspaper format about Toriello’s articles then? Not knowing how to proceed as I'm new to Wikipedia, to obviate the snag, I have referred to ParadoxxMedia website itself as some of the articles about Toriello are there published in form of pictures scanned from the original articles which have been issued by notorious newspapers in Italy and India, and which for the instance their data have been removed from their archives due the long time passed. However, myself I have personally verified the originality of the whole before to hazard any publishing idea and, although ParadoxxMedia is part of UB project, these are totally independent from Toriello, nonetheless is the founder and, for the instance, who he is not at all aware yet of this on-going, since this is just an initiative nothing to do with him. The fact that someone is the founder of an organization or a company, does not mean that he is making use of its own structure to publicize himself: facts talk by themselves. Therefore, before stating that all this is a massive hoax or accusing someone of self-making up all this, a fair, serious and deep investigation should be launched to establish the genuineness of the Toriello's case. Specially regarding the diplomat status, someone should be more attentive before to consider it as a massive hoax, as if the documentation published on ParadoxxMedia website are not considered a valid and independent source of verification, it does not make someone a scam or a forger of photos, videos or whatever, as alleged by “freerangefrog” user. Myself, as an occasional freelance writer, before to tribute this article to Toriello's life, as according my opinion worth to be published for many reasons and which satisfy the general public interest, I have been screening his doing since 10 years with enough neutral critic sense, although my well acquaintance with the person. I don't see any sense of Toriello himself referring independent verification accomplishments to his own website where it is clearly stated that he is the founder. Sorry for my expression, but someone doing that must be really dumb! However, if necessary, I can provide evidence of genuineness of the case by standing for it to any request, even if I would have to personally meet concerned Wikipedia decisional board, in order to clear the person name for self-advertisement. Regarding COSINT org, any enquiry about Toriello membership should be addressed at http://www.cosint.eu/ and www.allafrica.com. (For general information, CO.S.INT is an Italian NGO founded in 1986 by Italian General Giuseppe Garibaldi as a military supporting structure, which by the time became a paramilitary organization and today a civilian organization authorized to wear an uniform contemplated by its statute. The rank given is honorary and based on the qualification and experience of the person, as mostly those who become member are a military or ex-military person. Any doubt about it, enquiries should be address to the Italian Government. Instead, regarding the Toriello’s diplomatic position, as it is a serious affair, any allegation of Toriello’s forged identity, inquiry should be addressed to the government of the Democratic Republic of Sao Tome & Prinicpe of which I make myself available to provide any verifiable documentation and official contacts. In other words, understanding the seriousness of the case, before any allegation of hoax or forgery, a serious investigation should be considered before deletion of articles in such a way to assure equally justice to all concerned parties, keeping in consideration that the web is not the only source of independent data verifications. DrKlain ( talk) 02:04, 17 January 2013 (UTC) reply
Italian Press: Cronache del Mezzogiorno, Cronache della Sera Group, article issued 25/09/08 by Gabriele Bojano; Cronache del Mezzogiorno, Cronache della Sera Group, article issued 02/10/06 by Mariano Iodice; Interno Otto, Il Mattino Group, article issued 05/12/09 by Ralph Coluccino; Il Salernitano, PCRL group, article issued 20/11/05 by the staff; Il mattino, article issued 30/09/96 by Fabio Jouakim ( of the same Il Mattino, but different journalists, there are at least 6/7 more articles); Famiglia Cristiana, magazine issued October 2006 by the staff;
Indian Press: The Pioneer, article issued 06/03/97 by Arvind Bhandhari; The Statesman, article issued 16/09/97 by Arvind Bhandhari; The Hindu, article issued 03/11/97 by Hindu Staff reporter; The Statesman, article issue 21/12/97 by Staff The Pionner, article issued 22/08/98 by Vidisha Krishan
There are around other newspapers articles and some magazine articles of which I will have to search in case of need. Regarding the Toriello diplomatic position, enquiries could be addressed at +239 2221142, presidency office of the DRSTP, Colonel Victor Travares Monteiro, director of the Gabinet of the presidency office, as their official website is still under construction; or at the Sao Tome & Principe Emabassy, Portugal, Dr. Edgar Torres, counsellor to the Ambassador. In the end and in other words, if such evidences are not a valid source of independent verifications complying with Wikipedia guide lines, I have not at all objection for article's deletion.Thanks. DrKlain ( talk) 17:58, 17 January 2013 (UTC) reply
Comment pasted from
my talk page.
|
---|
* Reporting talks Hi. Because of my experience lacking, I have to apologize to the FreeRangeFrog user as I posted the below comment in his talk page, which I learn not to do it, therefore I’m rectifying it by copying below the talks:
Hi. Before to proceed I have the need to share with you that I'm new to Wikipedia and English is not my first language, so I apologize from now onward if I will be inappropriate by addressing you here my thoughts. First of all I'm touched by your welcoming in your talk page by stating "be nice", because the way I met you in the Toriello deletion's talk page, you "appear" to be not so "nice", rather quite prejudiced, as according to me you are not performing as an editor user, but more like a non impartial "inquisitor" by bordering legality with your serious allegations toward someone that you don't know in the real life and just because nothing substantial came up by researching the web about the man. So, as I was saying, if something is not on the web it means that doesn't exist or whatever is there, for you is just "rubbish" and made-up, or it has necessarily be a "massive hoax". Based on which grounds??? Yes I know there are "rubbish" and "scams" around, but it does not mean that has to necessarily always be like this, and just because your web research turned "nothing" or because evaluations have to be based only according your criterion! But I repeat, may be I'm new to Wikipedia, so it is just matter of time for me to get used by understanding how the system works. However, and trying to be short as there would be a lot to say, few users let me notice some incorrect assertions of yours which I would like to highlight and bring to your attention: 1) You said that "I concentrated on his claims of being the at-large Ambassador of Sao Tome and Principe"; actually, you should know that these are not his claims, but in this circumstance, it is me that I'm introducing the man for inclusion in Wikipedia's article as I believe that his life dedicated to certain social causes are worth enough to be published as the press have already given some relevance and tough not available on the net for whatever reasons. Moreover, in view of thousand articles published here and there without any "authentic" consistency bla bla bla, but just favorable circumstances have permitted it. In short! The man doesn't not claim anything, and even the data posted in the net, photos, videos and projects, actually you should know that are done by others, (call them friends, collaborators, "followers" or call them anyway you like), but you should be open to the possibility that someone else has done and not necessarily done by himself. Have you interviewed or have you met the man before launching such allegations, or have you conducted an unbiased and serious investigation before to draw any conclusions, rather to just base them on a web search? I have done for almost 10 years mate, and I have seen the man standing alone to fight priest's pedophilia against church and facing any kind of attacks in return, so you should kindly pay some little more human consideration before someone that you don't really know and before launching such incorrect allegations. 2)At the point were you state " A search for Sao Tome e Principe embaixador itineratnte Toriello returns exactly one hit, a press released by his own purported organization", some users have clicked that link and open a web site wwww.allafrica.com with an article mentioning his name. You should know that this website it is nothing to do with "his own purported organization" as it is an independent African website, therefore before stating it, you should properly investigate about the ownership. 3) If you are not an expert, then you should avoid stating that some flicker pictures of the person are photoshopped. As a serious impartial editor which I'm sure you are, you should be stating it only after an opportune professional investigation and not just based on your personal impression. 4) Final and most serious are your allegations for his diplomatic position and his given honorary position as general of the COSINT, which you should have conducted a serious and scrupulous investigation (as serious journalists do) before launching them. I'm sure you are not interested at all to deepen the story about the man (why should you? after all you are an open source editor like me, but the only difference is that you are an expert editor), but in case yes let me know and I will be glad to share with you my 10 years "journalistic" observation of his activities, and let me make this clear, that all this, it is nothing to do with the deletion case of his article. In fact, if the Toriello's article fails WP.GNG or any other Wikipedia's guide lines, fair enough, but that has not to entitle users to launch unproved allegations or judge someone a scam or a "massive hoax". Kindly advise if any violations has been made by posting this message into your talk space so I will amend it. Regards.
DrKlain (
talk) 10:38, 19 January 2013 (UTC) 23:24, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
reply
|
However, just for the sake of neutral journalistic investigations, and please note it that is “NOTHING TO DO WITH MY ARTICLE’S CASE ANYMORE”, allow me for the last time to rectify assertions in your talks which according me are not correct. I have to apologize to Elinruby user as the link for Sao Tome official web site is the following [6] and not the previous which by mistake I have linked to ParadoxxMedia. In fact, this is the right link [7] and the one pointed out by you [8] is not published from a governmental body. Regarding Toriello’s position of ambassador at-large is not “honorary” which rather it is a political nomination appointed by a Presidential decree, but still, even if honorific, it comes from a Presidential decree of a recognized Sovereign State, [9] so please don’t throw ashes on it by minimizing and labeling the country “small”, since there are smallest countries than it. (e.g. Vatican, which are just 1000 citizen and a lot to say about its history how it got power etc. etc…, but let’s stop the issue here, or I have to assume that there are discriminations in your assertion). The point is that; first of all you should be neutral about it and without parting for one or another country despite its geographical characteristics; second, I’m sure you know that Ambassadors at-large [10] appointed by any recognized Sovereign State have all similar privileges and value, and then nothing to do if the appointing country is big or small, poor or reach (otherwise again I have to assume that something here it borders discrimination). About the press coverage, as I said, it was blocked at its origin itself at that time, so the news were immediately contained from the naissance’s city, Salerno (south of Italy), and mainly covered by “Il Mattino’s newspaper group and “Cronache Del Mezzogiorno” (of which I have provided citations with the name of the journalists covering the news), and please consider the fact that in the 1996 very few were willing to “challenge” the undisputed power of the church. Just today, with the changing systems thanks to evolving generational visions and more “impartiality”, church’s authority could be contrasted. In fact, their concealed deviations and wrongs, start to come out thanks also to person like Toriello’s precursory public denounces. But again, all these are just arguing, so let’s stick to FreRangeFrog user’s advice and to whom I wish to clarify his raised point and which is that I have never mention that Toriello was a parliamentary, but I just pointed a link where his name was listed there, as to give a small evidence of his role as a “Socialisti Italiani’s party representative” and of which I mentioned in my article. In the end, as I’m becoming more accustomed with Wikipedia’s guidelines, I have realized of being unadvised and hasty, so rather to promote the man’s accomplishments, I probably have belittled them by missing WP:GNG. At this point, FreeRangeFrog user is right saying that talks are not relevant, therefore I can’t deny the fact that at this stage my article is not complying much Wikipedia’s guidelines, although I have to mention my effort of having contacted all concerned sources in my knowledge to point them out the concerned removal’s information from their archives. May be a day something will come up. Let’s see! However, for now I understand the necessity to reach to a conclusion. DrKlain ( talk) 12:56, 22 January 2013 (UTC) reply
The result was delete. MBisanz talk 00:16, 1 February 2013 (UTC) reply
Toriello seems to be an incredible person. Unfortunately, none of his accomplishments can be independently verified. All citations of significant facts come from Paradoxxmedia, a website that claims itself part of the "United Beings Project" that this article clearly states is a project of Toriello himself. In other words, Toriello himself is the source of all information about himself. No news sources can be found to verify any of these facts independently. The only thing Toriello can be verified as is a named director of 3 corporations in the UK, and as president of a shadowy organization called COSINT CAMEROUN, an organization purportedly dedicated to the improvement of health in Cameroon, but whose website is woefully empty of any information. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 13:52, 16 January 2013 (UTC) reply
Questions: are reputed printed-media newspaper considered an independent source and an eligible criterion of data verification? If yes, are these media printed format accepted even if not verifiable from internet because removed from the web archives of the issuer networks, or in other words, in form of original printed newspaper? If yes, then, the fact that these printed newspapers are not published in the net, it does not mean that these are not a valid independent source of data verification. The solution here is simple, if this is the case: where to submit the original printed newspaper format about Toriello’s articles then? Not knowing how to proceed as I'm new to Wikipedia, to obviate the snag, I have referred to ParadoxxMedia website itself as some of the articles about Toriello are there published in form of pictures scanned from the original articles which have been issued by notorious newspapers in Italy and India, and which for the instance their data have been removed from their archives due the long time passed. However, myself I have personally verified the originality of the whole before to hazard any publishing idea and, although ParadoxxMedia is part of UB project, these are totally independent from Toriello, nonetheless is the founder and, for the instance, who he is not at all aware yet of this on-going, since this is just an initiative nothing to do with him. The fact that someone is the founder of an organization or a company, does not mean that he is making use of its own structure to publicize himself: facts talk by themselves. Therefore, before stating that all this is a massive hoax or accusing someone of self-making up all this, a fair, serious and deep investigation should be launched to establish the genuineness of the Toriello's case. Specially regarding the diplomat status, someone should be more attentive before to consider it as a massive hoax, as if the documentation published on ParadoxxMedia website are not considered a valid and independent source of verification, it does not make someone a scam or a forger of photos, videos or whatever, as alleged by “freerangefrog” user. Myself, as an occasional freelance writer, before to tribute this article to Toriello's life, as according my opinion worth to be published for many reasons and which satisfy the general public interest, I have been screening his doing since 10 years with enough neutral critic sense, although my well acquaintance with the person. I don't see any sense of Toriello himself referring independent verification accomplishments to his own website where it is clearly stated that he is the founder. Sorry for my expression, but someone doing that must be really dumb! However, if necessary, I can provide evidence of genuineness of the case by standing for it to any request, even if I would have to personally meet concerned Wikipedia decisional board, in order to clear the person name for self-advertisement. Regarding COSINT org, any enquiry about Toriello membership should be addressed at http://www.cosint.eu/ and www.allafrica.com. (For general information, CO.S.INT is an Italian NGO founded in 1986 by Italian General Giuseppe Garibaldi as a military supporting structure, which by the time became a paramilitary organization and today a civilian organization authorized to wear an uniform contemplated by its statute. The rank given is honorary and based on the qualification and experience of the person, as mostly those who become member are a military or ex-military person. Any doubt about it, enquiries should be address to the Italian Government. Instead, regarding the Toriello’s diplomatic position, as it is a serious affair, any allegation of Toriello’s forged identity, inquiry should be addressed to the government of the Democratic Republic of Sao Tome & Prinicpe of which I make myself available to provide any verifiable documentation and official contacts. In other words, understanding the seriousness of the case, before any allegation of hoax or forgery, a serious investigation should be considered before deletion of articles in such a way to assure equally justice to all concerned parties, keeping in consideration that the web is not the only source of independent data verifications. DrKlain ( talk) 02:04, 17 January 2013 (UTC) reply
Italian Press: Cronache del Mezzogiorno, Cronache della Sera Group, article issued 25/09/08 by Gabriele Bojano; Cronache del Mezzogiorno, Cronache della Sera Group, article issued 02/10/06 by Mariano Iodice; Interno Otto, Il Mattino Group, article issued 05/12/09 by Ralph Coluccino; Il Salernitano, PCRL group, article issued 20/11/05 by the staff; Il mattino, article issued 30/09/96 by Fabio Jouakim ( of the same Il Mattino, but different journalists, there are at least 6/7 more articles); Famiglia Cristiana, magazine issued October 2006 by the staff;
Indian Press: The Pioneer, article issued 06/03/97 by Arvind Bhandhari; The Statesman, article issued 16/09/97 by Arvind Bhandhari; The Hindu, article issued 03/11/97 by Hindu Staff reporter; The Statesman, article issue 21/12/97 by Staff The Pionner, article issued 22/08/98 by Vidisha Krishan
There are around other newspapers articles and some magazine articles of which I will have to search in case of need. Regarding the Toriello diplomatic position, enquiries could be addressed at +239 2221142, presidency office of the DRSTP, Colonel Victor Travares Monteiro, director of the Gabinet of the presidency office, as their official website is still under construction; or at the Sao Tome & Principe Emabassy, Portugal, Dr. Edgar Torres, counsellor to the Ambassador. In the end and in other words, if such evidences are not a valid source of independent verifications complying with Wikipedia guide lines, I have not at all objection for article's deletion.Thanks. DrKlain ( talk) 17:58, 17 January 2013 (UTC) reply
Comment pasted from
my talk page.
|
---|
* Reporting talks Hi. Because of my experience lacking, I have to apologize to the FreeRangeFrog user as I posted the below comment in his talk page, which I learn not to do it, therefore I’m rectifying it by copying below the talks:
Hi. Before to proceed I have the need to share with you that I'm new to Wikipedia and English is not my first language, so I apologize from now onward if I will be inappropriate by addressing you here my thoughts. First of all I'm touched by your welcoming in your talk page by stating "be nice", because the way I met you in the Toriello deletion's talk page, you "appear" to be not so "nice", rather quite prejudiced, as according to me you are not performing as an editor user, but more like a non impartial "inquisitor" by bordering legality with your serious allegations toward someone that you don't know in the real life and just because nothing substantial came up by researching the web about the man. So, as I was saying, if something is not on the web it means that doesn't exist or whatever is there, for you is just "rubbish" and made-up, or it has necessarily be a "massive hoax". Based on which grounds??? Yes I know there are "rubbish" and "scams" around, but it does not mean that has to necessarily always be like this, and just because your web research turned "nothing" or because evaluations have to be based only according your criterion! But I repeat, may be I'm new to Wikipedia, so it is just matter of time for me to get used by understanding how the system works. However, and trying to be short as there would be a lot to say, few users let me notice some incorrect assertions of yours which I would like to highlight and bring to your attention: 1) You said that "I concentrated on his claims of being the at-large Ambassador of Sao Tome and Principe"; actually, you should know that these are not his claims, but in this circumstance, it is me that I'm introducing the man for inclusion in Wikipedia's article as I believe that his life dedicated to certain social causes are worth enough to be published as the press have already given some relevance and tough not available on the net for whatever reasons. Moreover, in view of thousand articles published here and there without any "authentic" consistency bla bla bla, but just favorable circumstances have permitted it. In short! The man doesn't not claim anything, and even the data posted in the net, photos, videos and projects, actually you should know that are done by others, (call them friends, collaborators, "followers" or call them anyway you like), but you should be open to the possibility that someone else has done and not necessarily done by himself. Have you interviewed or have you met the man before launching such allegations, or have you conducted an unbiased and serious investigation before to draw any conclusions, rather to just base them on a web search? I have done for almost 10 years mate, and I have seen the man standing alone to fight priest's pedophilia against church and facing any kind of attacks in return, so you should kindly pay some little more human consideration before someone that you don't really know and before launching such incorrect allegations. 2)At the point were you state " A search for Sao Tome e Principe embaixador itineratnte Toriello returns exactly one hit, a press released by his own purported organization", some users have clicked that link and open a web site wwww.allafrica.com with an article mentioning his name. You should know that this website it is nothing to do with "his own purported organization" as it is an independent African website, therefore before stating it, you should properly investigate about the ownership. 3) If you are not an expert, then you should avoid stating that some flicker pictures of the person are photoshopped. As a serious impartial editor which I'm sure you are, you should be stating it only after an opportune professional investigation and not just based on your personal impression. 4) Final and most serious are your allegations for his diplomatic position and his given honorary position as general of the COSINT, which you should have conducted a serious and scrupulous investigation (as serious journalists do) before launching them. I'm sure you are not interested at all to deepen the story about the man (why should you? after all you are an open source editor like me, but the only difference is that you are an expert editor), but in case yes let me know and I will be glad to share with you my 10 years "journalistic" observation of his activities, and let me make this clear, that all this, it is nothing to do with the deletion case of his article. In fact, if the Toriello's article fails WP.GNG or any other Wikipedia's guide lines, fair enough, but that has not to entitle users to launch unproved allegations or judge someone a scam or a "massive hoax". Kindly advise if any violations has been made by posting this message into your talk space so I will amend it. Regards.
DrKlain (
talk) 10:38, 19 January 2013 (UTC) 23:24, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
reply
|
However, just for the sake of neutral journalistic investigations, and please note it that is “NOTHING TO DO WITH MY ARTICLE’S CASE ANYMORE”, allow me for the last time to rectify assertions in your talks which according me are not correct. I have to apologize to Elinruby user as the link for Sao Tome official web site is the following [6] and not the previous which by mistake I have linked to ParadoxxMedia. In fact, this is the right link [7] and the one pointed out by you [8] is not published from a governmental body. Regarding Toriello’s position of ambassador at-large is not “honorary” which rather it is a political nomination appointed by a Presidential decree, but still, even if honorific, it comes from a Presidential decree of a recognized Sovereign State, [9] so please don’t throw ashes on it by minimizing and labeling the country “small”, since there are smallest countries than it. (e.g. Vatican, which are just 1000 citizen and a lot to say about its history how it got power etc. etc…, but let’s stop the issue here, or I have to assume that there are discriminations in your assertion). The point is that; first of all you should be neutral about it and without parting for one or another country despite its geographical characteristics; second, I’m sure you know that Ambassadors at-large [10] appointed by any recognized Sovereign State have all similar privileges and value, and then nothing to do if the appointing country is big or small, poor or reach (otherwise again I have to assume that something here it borders discrimination). About the press coverage, as I said, it was blocked at its origin itself at that time, so the news were immediately contained from the naissance’s city, Salerno (south of Italy), and mainly covered by “Il Mattino’s newspaper group and “Cronache Del Mezzogiorno” (of which I have provided citations with the name of the journalists covering the news), and please consider the fact that in the 1996 very few were willing to “challenge” the undisputed power of the church. Just today, with the changing systems thanks to evolving generational visions and more “impartiality”, church’s authority could be contrasted. In fact, their concealed deviations and wrongs, start to come out thanks also to person like Toriello’s precursory public denounces. But again, all these are just arguing, so let’s stick to FreRangeFrog user’s advice and to whom I wish to clarify his raised point and which is that I have never mention that Toriello was a parliamentary, but I just pointed a link where his name was listed there, as to give a small evidence of his role as a “Socialisti Italiani’s party representative” and of which I mentioned in my article. In the end, as I’m becoming more accustomed with Wikipedia’s guidelines, I have realized of being unadvised and hasty, so rather to promote the man’s accomplishments, I probably have belittled them by missing WP:GNG. At this point, FreeRangeFrog user is right saying that talks are not relevant, therefore I can’t deny the fact that at this stage my article is not complying much Wikipedia’s guidelines, although I have to mention my effort of having contacted all concerned sources in my knowledge to point them out the concerned removal’s information from their archives. May be a day something will come up. Let’s see! However, for now I understand the necessity to reach to a conclusion. DrKlain ( talk) 12:56, 22 January 2013 (UTC) reply