- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Liz Read! Talk! 06:34, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
Aage Leidersdorff
AfDs for this article:
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Aage Leidersdorff ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails
WP:GNG and
WP:SPORTCRIT #5, and violates
WP:NOTDATABASE. While the article was kept at a previous AfD on the basis that winning an award from a Danish tabloid met
WP:ANYBIO #1, and thus Leidersdorff was likely to be notable
, in the 18 months since that AfD no one has been able to find additional suitable sources.
Even if an award from a tabloid newspaper is a well-known and significant award
, an assertion that seems dubious to me, the failure to find any suitable sources is strong evidence that in this case it is not a predictor of notability. In addition meeting ANYBIO doesn't create an exception from the requirements of SPORTSCRIT #5, and thus if we cannot find any significant coverage we cannot keep the article.
BilledMammal (
talk)
10:26, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople and Denmark. BilledMammal ( talk) 10:26, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. The article also includes this reference: # Paul Yogi Mayer, 2000: Jüdische Olympiasieger: Sport - Ein Sprungbrett für Minoritäten, Agon Sportverlag Kassel, p.107 which you can see here reference
https://www.google.com/books/edition/J%C3%BCdische_Olympiasieger/0kYTAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Aage+Leidersdorff&dq=Aage+Leidersdorff&printsec=frontcover
Eastmain (
talk •
contribs)
19:22, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- From what I understand that only contains a passing mention; if you disagree can you provide a more extensive quote? BilledMammal ( talk) 19:30, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Also notable as a furrier. See new references.
Eastmain (
talk •
contribs)
20:09, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Looking at those references none seem to constitute WP:SIGCOV; they all appear to be passing mentions. BilledMammal ( talk) 04:13, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Olympics-related deletion discussions. Ingratis ( talk) 17:55, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- Comment - What the nom has not mentioned is that the lack of SIGCOV is mostly down to the fact that Danish newspapers are not accessible outside Denmark for 100 years after publication, so in the absence of an editor physically located in Denmark it's not possible to check in what will be the principal source. However, a name search is still possible even if the articles themselves are not accessible (see Mediestream). Aage Leidersdorff died on 19 Feb 1970: in February 1970 16 newspapers mentioned him. In 1945, when he was awarded the B.T. sportsperson of the year award, his name occurs 24 times, doubtless in part because of the significance of a Jewish sportsman receiving the award in the same year as the end of the Nazi occupation of Denmark. I haven't checked other years. Without seeing the articles it's obviously not possible to gauge the quality of the coverage but it is possible to be sure that there's a quantity of it, and that there could well be more. Ingratis ( talk) 06:21, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- Redirect - WP:ATD. I'm aware that he competed in three Olympics: just pick one as the main entry - e.g. Denmark at the 1948 Summer Olympics#Fencing - and cross-reference to/from the others. Ingratis ( talk) 06:21, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris talk! 12:22, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep, per Eastmain and editors at the prior AfD. We should be able to presume coverage exists (COMMONSENSE) for someone good enough to make the Olympics over a span of 1932-48 who was named the national athlete of the year in a country with close to 6,000,000 people (that newspaper most certainly gave an in-depth article with the announcement - also, per ANYBIO, we should be able to keep since the newspapers that covered him are not available). I strongly dislike the practice of BilledMammal and others to continually re-nominate articles which have been kept at prior deletion discussions because they dislike the outcome. Also, pinging participants from the prior discussion (besides two who have been blocked): @
Løken,
Jevansen,
Garuda3,
Geschichte, and
Liz:
BeanieFan11 (
talk)
15:12, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
We should be able to presume coverage
If we can find one example of WP:SIGCOV then we can. If we can't, then we are forbidden from doing so per WP:SPORTSCRIT #5, and a local consensus is not permitted to overrule that restriction - if you disagree with it, I suggest proposing that #5 is rescinded. BilledMammal ( talk) 04:13, 20 July 2023 (UTC)- Clearly there are times when exceptions need to be made, and
WP:NSPORT (which includes
WP:SPORTCRIT) agrees:
[This] is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply.
BeanieFan11 ( talk) 13:04, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- Clearly there are times when exceptions need to be made, and
WP:NSPORT (which includes
WP:SPORTCRIT) agrees:
- Weak Keep I wasn't able to find anything definitive in Danish to pass GNG, but there is some contemporary coverage available, and he was sort of notable for a fur business according to the Danish wikipedia. SportingFlyer T· C 16:12, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep - I believe there could be more out there but as we all know, our access to older, non-English materials is very limited due to factors out of our control. I think it would be highly unlikely of him to be a sportsperson of the year, own a store and make three olympics yet not be covered. See WP:SBEXT. KatoKungLee ( talk) 16:56, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep as WP:OSO is not sufficient grounds for deletion. Between his appearance in the documentary film (which no one here has watched) and the multiple obituaries in Danish newspapers in 1970 (which no one has been able to access but are indexed in the Danish Digital Newspaper Collection), not to mention the many other Danish newspaper clippings across all years (over 1,000 on the name which was admittedly passed down together with the family furrier business), there appears to be ample offline coverage that could satisfy WP:BASIC that we simply cannot access and do not have the language skills to assess here and now. The story of Aage Leidersdorff is more than "just a typical sports bio" as he was a Danish Jew competing in the Olympics before and after the Nazi occupation of Denmark, and was evacuated to Sweden during World War II (as discussed in the Jewish Olympians book). So in addition to the main Danish newspaper archives and books, I would also suggest visiting the Danish Jewish Museum library for additional sources. Cielquiparle ( talk) 04:57, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep per Cielquiparle's sound analysis above. Pointless and POINTY AfD. Cavarrone 08:34, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- While I'm not part particularly fond on these kinds of !votes, I am leaning keep despite the missing SIGCOV due to a few things: a) Winning the B.T. Guld award is a strong indication that an individual was a notable athlete. b) There is evidence on him getting coverage in the Danish media both when he won the award and when he died but we can't fully access them because c) Offline sources from that period seem to be impossible to fully access unless you visit a Danish library due to local copyright laws. d) I further found
this coverage on him in the 1949 edition of
Nordisk familjeboks sportlexikon that describes him as the
"Nordics' foremost foil and saber fencer since 1935."
Alvaldi ( talk) 09:04, 20 July 2023 (UTC)- He is also covered in the fifth Volume from 1943 [1] [2] Alvaldi ( talk) 09:25, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep - no one has found additional suitable sources in the 18 months since the last AFD as they continue to remain inaccessible. We can be confident these sources exists as
Cielquiparle has outlined.
Jevansen (
talk)
09:33, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- @ Jevansen For additional sources, I point to the above mentioned sources from the 1943 and 1949 editions of the Swedish Nordisk familjeboks sportlexikon where he is described as the "Nordics' foremost foil and saber fencer since 1935" and his career highlights are listed. Alvaldi ( talk) 10:04, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- Comment. ANYBIO is irrelevant if the award is related to sports, as we had a global consensus that no sporting achievement can be used to presume notability directly. Same with NBASIC, as we also had global consensus that sportspeople articles must contain a citation to IRS SIGCOV. No such SIGCOV has been identified, and the ambiguity in Danish newspaper hits for him versus his father makes it pointless to speculate on newspaper coverage, so a redirect would be most appropriate to retain the history until we can access those sources.
JoelleJay (
talk)
18:54, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- You need to realize that there are times that the rules are not to be strictly followed; per
policy and the guideline NSPORT/SPORTCRIT:
[This] is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply.
Also FWIW, in my opinion if the proposal at that NSPORT2022 discussion was "all articles must have significant coverage or they must be deleted no matter how great their athletic achievements were even if coverage is impossible to find and we know it is near-certain to exist" it would have assuredly not achieved consensus. BeanieFan11 ( talk) 19:03, 20 July 2023 (UTC)- ANYBIO is as much a guideline as NSPORT so NSPORT does not override ANYBIO (nor vice versa). And with guidelines there are no "musts". All guidelines are subject to exceptions when warranted. Rlendog ( talk) 20:44, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- You need to realize that there are times that the rules are not to be strictly followed; per
policy and the guideline NSPORT/SPORTCRIT:
- Comment Please note that the B.T. Guld award is not some nondescript tabloid award, it is a major Danish sports award presented at the annual sports gala held by the Danish Broadcasting Corporation [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] Alvaldi ( talk) 19:42, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep per Cielquiparle. Rlendog ( talk) 20:45, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Liz Read! Talk! 06:34, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
Aage Leidersdorff
AfDs for this article:
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Aage Leidersdorff ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails
WP:GNG and
WP:SPORTCRIT #5, and violates
WP:NOTDATABASE. While the article was kept at a previous AfD on the basis that winning an award from a Danish tabloid met
WP:ANYBIO #1, and thus Leidersdorff was likely to be notable
, in the 18 months since that AfD no one has been able to find additional suitable sources.
Even if an award from a tabloid newspaper is a well-known and significant award
, an assertion that seems dubious to me, the failure to find any suitable sources is strong evidence that in this case it is not a predictor of notability. In addition meeting ANYBIO doesn't create an exception from the requirements of SPORTSCRIT #5, and thus if we cannot find any significant coverage we cannot keep the article.
BilledMammal (
talk)
10:26, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople and Denmark. BilledMammal ( talk) 10:26, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. The article also includes this reference: # Paul Yogi Mayer, 2000: Jüdische Olympiasieger: Sport - Ein Sprungbrett für Minoritäten, Agon Sportverlag Kassel, p.107 which you can see here reference
https://www.google.com/books/edition/J%C3%BCdische_Olympiasieger/0kYTAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Aage+Leidersdorff&dq=Aage+Leidersdorff&printsec=frontcover
Eastmain (
talk •
contribs)
19:22, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- From what I understand that only contains a passing mention; if you disagree can you provide a more extensive quote? BilledMammal ( talk) 19:30, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Also notable as a furrier. See new references.
Eastmain (
talk •
contribs)
20:09, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Looking at those references none seem to constitute WP:SIGCOV; they all appear to be passing mentions. BilledMammal ( talk) 04:13, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Olympics-related deletion discussions. Ingratis ( talk) 17:55, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- Comment - What the nom has not mentioned is that the lack of SIGCOV is mostly down to the fact that Danish newspapers are not accessible outside Denmark for 100 years after publication, so in the absence of an editor physically located in Denmark it's not possible to check in what will be the principal source. However, a name search is still possible even if the articles themselves are not accessible (see Mediestream). Aage Leidersdorff died on 19 Feb 1970: in February 1970 16 newspapers mentioned him. In 1945, when he was awarded the B.T. sportsperson of the year award, his name occurs 24 times, doubtless in part because of the significance of a Jewish sportsman receiving the award in the same year as the end of the Nazi occupation of Denmark. I haven't checked other years. Without seeing the articles it's obviously not possible to gauge the quality of the coverage but it is possible to be sure that there's a quantity of it, and that there could well be more. Ingratis ( talk) 06:21, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- Redirect - WP:ATD. I'm aware that he competed in three Olympics: just pick one as the main entry - e.g. Denmark at the 1948 Summer Olympics#Fencing - and cross-reference to/from the others. Ingratis ( talk) 06:21, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris talk! 12:22, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep, per Eastmain and editors at the prior AfD. We should be able to presume coverage exists (COMMONSENSE) for someone good enough to make the Olympics over a span of 1932-48 who was named the national athlete of the year in a country with close to 6,000,000 people (that newspaper most certainly gave an in-depth article with the announcement - also, per ANYBIO, we should be able to keep since the newspapers that covered him are not available). I strongly dislike the practice of BilledMammal and others to continually re-nominate articles which have been kept at prior deletion discussions because they dislike the outcome. Also, pinging participants from the prior discussion (besides two who have been blocked): @
Løken,
Jevansen,
Garuda3,
Geschichte, and
Liz:
BeanieFan11 (
talk)
15:12, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
We should be able to presume coverage
If we can find one example of WP:SIGCOV then we can. If we can't, then we are forbidden from doing so per WP:SPORTSCRIT #5, and a local consensus is not permitted to overrule that restriction - if you disagree with it, I suggest proposing that #5 is rescinded. BilledMammal ( talk) 04:13, 20 July 2023 (UTC)- Clearly there are times when exceptions need to be made, and
WP:NSPORT (which includes
WP:SPORTCRIT) agrees:
[This] is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply.
BeanieFan11 ( talk) 13:04, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- Clearly there are times when exceptions need to be made, and
WP:NSPORT (which includes
WP:SPORTCRIT) agrees:
- Weak Keep I wasn't able to find anything definitive in Danish to pass GNG, but there is some contemporary coverage available, and he was sort of notable for a fur business according to the Danish wikipedia. SportingFlyer T· C 16:12, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep - I believe there could be more out there but as we all know, our access to older, non-English materials is very limited due to factors out of our control. I think it would be highly unlikely of him to be a sportsperson of the year, own a store and make three olympics yet not be covered. See WP:SBEXT. KatoKungLee ( talk) 16:56, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep as WP:OSO is not sufficient grounds for deletion. Between his appearance in the documentary film (which no one here has watched) and the multiple obituaries in Danish newspapers in 1970 (which no one has been able to access but are indexed in the Danish Digital Newspaper Collection), not to mention the many other Danish newspaper clippings across all years (over 1,000 on the name which was admittedly passed down together with the family furrier business), there appears to be ample offline coverage that could satisfy WP:BASIC that we simply cannot access and do not have the language skills to assess here and now. The story of Aage Leidersdorff is more than "just a typical sports bio" as he was a Danish Jew competing in the Olympics before and after the Nazi occupation of Denmark, and was evacuated to Sweden during World War II (as discussed in the Jewish Olympians book). So in addition to the main Danish newspaper archives and books, I would also suggest visiting the Danish Jewish Museum library for additional sources. Cielquiparle ( talk) 04:57, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep per Cielquiparle's sound analysis above. Pointless and POINTY AfD. Cavarrone 08:34, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- While I'm not part particularly fond on these kinds of !votes, I am leaning keep despite the missing SIGCOV due to a few things: a) Winning the B.T. Guld award is a strong indication that an individual was a notable athlete. b) There is evidence on him getting coverage in the Danish media both when he won the award and when he died but we can't fully access them because c) Offline sources from that period seem to be impossible to fully access unless you visit a Danish library due to local copyright laws. d) I further found
this coverage on him in the 1949 edition of
Nordisk familjeboks sportlexikon that describes him as the
"Nordics' foremost foil and saber fencer since 1935."
Alvaldi ( talk) 09:04, 20 July 2023 (UTC)- He is also covered in the fifth Volume from 1943 [1] [2] Alvaldi ( talk) 09:25, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep - no one has found additional suitable sources in the 18 months since the last AFD as they continue to remain inaccessible. We can be confident these sources exists as
Cielquiparle has outlined.
Jevansen (
talk)
09:33, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- @ Jevansen For additional sources, I point to the above mentioned sources from the 1943 and 1949 editions of the Swedish Nordisk familjeboks sportlexikon where he is described as the "Nordics' foremost foil and saber fencer since 1935" and his career highlights are listed. Alvaldi ( talk) 10:04, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- Comment. ANYBIO is irrelevant if the award is related to sports, as we had a global consensus that no sporting achievement can be used to presume notability directly. Same with NBASIC, as we also had global consensus that sportspeople articles must contain a citation to IRS SIGCOV. No such SIGCOV has been identified, and the ambiguity in Danish newspaper hits for him versus his father makes it pointless to speculate on newspaper coverage, so a redirect would be most appropriate to retain the history until we can access those sources.
JoelleJay (
talk)
18:54, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- You need to realize that there are times that the rules are not to be strictly followed; per
policy and the guideline NSPORT/SPORTCRIT:
[This] is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply.
Also FWIW, in my opinion if the proposal at that NSPORT2022 discussion was "all articles must have significant coverage or they must be deleted no matter how great their athletic achievements were even if coverage is impossible to find and we know it is near-certain to exist" it would have assuredly not achieved consensus. BeanieFan11 ( talk) 19:03, 20 July 2023 (UTC)- ANYBIO is as much a guideline as NSPORT so NSPORT does not override ANYBIO (nor vice versa). And with guidelines there are no "musts". All guidelines are subject to exceptions when warranted. Rlendog ( talk) 20:44, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- You need to realize that there are times that the rules are not to be strictly followed; per
policy and the guideline NSPORT/SPORTCRIT:
- Comment Please note that the B.T. Guld award is not some nondescript tabloid award, it is a major Danish sports award presented at the annual sports gala held by the Danish Broadcasting Corporation [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] Alvaldi ( talk) 19:42, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep per Cielquiparle. Rlendog ( talk) 20:45, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.