The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Keep—although I'm the author of the article. I think that
this slate article from a month afterward showed that it was at least drawn out, and multiple articles long after the controversy give it mentions whenever they talk about wikipedia edit wars. However, I'm fine if this is merged too.
theleekycauldron (
talk •
contribs) (
they/them)
17:59, 24 October 2021 (UTC)reply
To elaborate,
WP:PERSISTENCE states that If an event is cited as a case study in multiple sources after the initial coverage has died down, this may be an indication of lasting significance. Indeed, when Wikipedia edit wars are covered now, you'll often find a mention of this incident. And i'm not sure what "relatively short" means in Notable events usually receive coverage beyond a relatively short news cycle. from WP:PERSISTENCE, but coverage of the controversy lasted for over a month.
theleekycauldron (
talk •
contribs) (
they/them)
18:58, 24 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment: It is proper to defend one's own work; the wikipedian wouldn't have built such work without good intentions. The work is well cited, to the extent it could be. This issue to me is
WP:NEVENT, where this subject fails
WP:PERSISTENCE and
WP:LASTING. If merge is the concluded outcome, I suggest
User:Theleekycauldron perform the merge themselves to preserve the best material.
BusterD (
talk)
18:21, 24 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep (
edit conflict) Notable and telling to show the kind of pedantic arguments which happen in the backrooms of the project. The comic strip is a nice measure of notability. Also I like it because it made me spit my coffee out.
Lightburst (
talk)
18:55, 24 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Shame on me. I failed to say what
User:Lightburst has kindly pointed out. The page is a clever piece of writing and the cartoon does matter. I'm amenable to changing my !vote if argument goes towards keep. Sure could use an article rescue squadron here.
User:Dream Focus is fully capable of correctly sourcing a random lamppost (for which I'd be forced to assert keep). Kudos to
User:Theleekycauldron for making me laugh today too. No unworthy thing. I hope Lightburst's keyboard is ok.
BusterD (
talk)
19:04, 24 October 2021 (UTC)reply
The entirety of the 2019 slate mention you link is a 40,000-word debate on the Star Trek Into Darkness talk page about whether the word into should be capitalized. and it's misrepresentation to describe their 2013 article as a "detail[sic] article" when the entirety of coverage there is the Wikipedia page for the film has become a battle ground for grammatical debate. Certain Wikipedia users maintain that the into in the title should be capitalized; others are certain that it should be lowercase. Their fervor is misplaced. To date, the summation of substantive coverage includes two published on January 30, and one published three weeks later. That's hardly even a significant burst of coverage at the time, but there has not been
sustained substantive coverage. The fact that people still mention it at times does not support your later claim that it is a notable event.
Eddie891TalkWork20:16, 24 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Excuse me. That article was about the issue of the title, with only part of it mentioning the Wikipedia argument about it, I didn't read it through as I should have. The DailyDot articles were however significant coverage about this, and published 22 days apart. And I do believe it is notable if its mentioned years later, even if briefly.
DreamFocus20:23, 24 October 2021 (UTC)reply
My comment was intended lightheartedly. My serious opinion is keep as per
User:Randy Kryn below; becoming the subject of an xkcd cartoon is a very unusual event, indicating unusual notability. The current article shows how Wikipedia disputes can influence the world in a way that has never before happened with an encyclopaedia. In some ways, this was a world first.
Elemimele (
talk)
21:37, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge to
List of Wikipedia controversies. I marked this article as reviewed because I found it notable enough with significant coverage, but on second thought, it's just one of many Wikipedia controversies that could easily be part of the list. I would say keep it as an independent article if the article was longer and the topic was more significant, but this is just a larger than usual internal conflict on Wikipedia that got the media's attention. While I'm not fully opposed to keeping, I find merging a better choice. Waddles🗩🖉23:53, 24 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep, an encyclopedic and very well sourced example of how the world's best, largest, and arguably strangest encyclopedia - when questioning how it grew and succeeded despite a framework which, as someone famously said, cannot work in theory but only in practice - runs behind the scenery, where the wild things roam.
Randy Kryn (
talk)
03:06, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge just not the quality or quantity of sources neded for a standalone article.There's very little to say about the dispute itself. That said, it does clearly qualify for an entry on the List of Wikipedia controversies.
Hemiauchenia (
talk)
03:18, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep per reasoning above. The article is linked to at
List of Wikipedia controversies now, I don't think a merge would be beneficial due to the length of that article. It is beneficial to our readers to keep this so the list article doesn't become too convoluted, but people can click through to find more information on this article if they wish.
NemesisAT (
talk)
20:07, 28 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge. Are we looking at the same sources here? Setting aside the one
ABOUTSELF source and the xkcd reference, we have two from right when it happened, one of them rather short; one from a month later, a follow-up to the longer of those two; and then two paragraphs in a listicle published this year. I don't see how any of that qualifies as
persistent coverage. Think for a moment about if this weren't a Wikipedia-related topic. We routinely delete articles on non-notable hashtags and memes that have received far more coverage than is demonstrated here. Usually every time a new big hashtag emerges, every publication looking for some clicks will write an article about that hashtag, and then may call back to it later on. We could also make the case for articles on a lot of r/AskReddit threads, a lot of AMAs on r/IAmA, and a lot of viral Tumblr posts. But none of these things enjoy in-depth coverage in the moment, nor enduring coverage afterward.
The first Daily Dot article, which seems to have given the longest coverage, does summarize the perspectives here, but not much more than in your standard "See what people are tweeting!" article. It doesn't have much depth to it beyond that. If this is to be kept, and we aren't granting special status to Wikipedia-related content, then we're opening the door to articles on every Twitter, Reddit, or Tumblr thread with a comparable level of coverage. --
Tamzincetacean needed (she/they)18:04, 29 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Speedy Keep Per the
law of holes, "when you're in a hole, stop digging!". What Wikipedians like to do is fill the hole in and then dig it again. Repeatedly. It boosts everyone's edit count but it's not very productive is it? As people already have come up with some sensible ideas above and none of them require deletion, we seem to be done here. See also
WP:INTODARKNESS.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
12:51, 31 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Redirect to
List of Wikipedia controversies#2013, where it is adequately covered. Despite that many links above, there are a total of three sources here.
[4][5][6]. Two are published by the Daily Dot, one by Slate, and all published in a span of a couple weeks. All of the other sources linked (I just opened them all) are single sentence mentions and don't help notability. [Internal Wikipedia stuff] + [something fun/quirky] = Almost impossible to delete at AfD, I'm finding, regardless of sourcing. — Rhododendritestalk \\
14:01, 31 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep as others have said, this is definitely notable enough to be a Wikipedia article, with sources covering the argument. If keep fails then I'd suggest to make a redirect.
Heythereimaguy (
talk)
00:15, 1 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete or Re-direct to list of lamest edit wars - Wikipedia has had many disputes over article titles. PS: I hope an article isn't created about this AfD.
GoodDay (
talk)
04:01, 1 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep We have two enduring sources 2016 and 2021 (the 2016 source was just added by me). There may be more missed, and more in the future, 8 years is too soon to declare it a dead item when some sources continue to reference it over time. --
GreenC05:51, 1 November 2021 (UTC)reply
To be fair, the 2016 source in question brings up the controversy as a single-sentence example brought up in a larger point about Wikipedia's style of discussion and consensus—but I think it's time for this discussion to come to a close, however that comes down.
theleekycauldron (
talk •
contribs) (
they/them)
07:28, 1 November 2021 (UTC)reply
That's true but the entire article is about Wikipedia, the author chose a select few case examples to illustrate in the opening paragraphs for the points he would make further into the article. --
GreenC16:21, 1 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep based on the sourcing, but a merge is not a terrible outcome and should be handled as a talk page discussion if desired. Barely anyone here is arguing for outright deletion, which is good, because if we did that, I suspect Randall Munroe might pen another XKCD about how Wikipedia deletes things that end up making his older cartoons less funny, only it would be far wittier than the potential summary I've done.
Jclemens (
talk)
17:57, 1 November 2021 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Keep—although I'm the author of the article. I think that
this slate article from a month afterward showed that it was at least drawn out, and multiple articles long after the controversy give it mentions whenever they talk about wikipedia edit wars. However, I'm fine if this is merged too.
theleekycauldron (
talk •
contribs) (
they/them)
17:59, 24 October 2021 (UTC)reply
To elaborate,
WP:PERSISTENCE states that If an event is cited as a case study in multiple sources after the initial coverage has died down, this may be an indication of lasting significance. Indeed, when Wikipedia edit wars are covered now, you'll often find a mention of this incident. And i'm not sure what "relatively short" means in Notable events usually receive coverage beyond a relatively short news cycle. from WP:PERSISTENCE, but coverage of the controversy lasted for over a month.
theleekycauldron (
talk •
contribs) (
they/them)
18:58, 24 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment: It is proper to defend one's own work; the wikipedian wouldn't have built such work without good intentions. The work is well cited, to the extent it could be. This issue to me is
WP:NEVENT, where this subject fails
WP:PERSISTENCE and
WP:LASTING. If merge is the concluded outcome, I suggest
User:Theleekycauldron perform the merge themselves to preserve the best material.
BusterD (
talk)
18:21, 24 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep (
edit conflict) Notable and telling to show the kind of pedantic arguments which happen in the backrooms of the project. The comic strip is a nice measure of notability. Also I like it because it made me spit my coffee out.
Lightburst (
talk)
18:55, 24 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Shame on me. I failed to say what
User:Lightburst has kindly pointed out. The page is a clever piece of writing and the cartoon does matter. I'm amenable to changing my !vote if argument goes towards keep. Sure could use an article rescue squadron here.
User:Dream Focus is fully capable of correctly sourcing a random lamppost (for which I'd be forced to assert keep). Kudos to
User:Theleekycauldron for making me laugh today too. No unworthy thing. I hope Lightburst's keyboard is ok.
BusterD (
talk)
19:04, 24 October 2021 (UTC)reply
The entirety of the 2019 slate mention you link is a 40,000-word debate on the Star Trek Into Darkness talk page about whether the word into should be capitalized. and it's misrepresentation to describe their 2013 article as a "detail[sic] article" when the entirety of coverage there is the Wikipedia page for the film has become a battle ground for grammatical debate. Certain Wikipedia users maintain that the into in the title should be capitalized; others are certain that it should be lowercase. Their fervor is misplaced. To date, the summation of substantive coverage includes two published on January 30, and one published three weeks later. That's hardly even a significant burst of coverage at the time, but there has not been
sustained substantive coverage. The fact that people still mention it at times does not support your later claim that it is a notable event.
Eddie891TalkWork20:16, 24 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Excuse me. That article was about the issue of the title, with only part of it mentioning the Wikipedia argument about it, I didn't read it through as I should have. The DailyDot articles were however significant coverage about this, and published 22 days apart. And I do believe it is notable if its mentioned years later, even if briefly.
DreamFocus20:23, 24 October 2021 (UTC)reply
My comment was intended lightheartedly. My serious opinion is keep as per
User:Randy Kryn below; becoming the subject of an xkcd cartoon is a very unusual event, indicating unusual notability. The current article shows how Wikipedia disputes can influence the world in a way that has never before happened with an encyclopaedia. In some ways, this was a world first.
Elemimele (
talk)
21:37, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge to
List of Wikipedia controversies. I marked this article as reviewed because I found it notable enough with significant coverage, but on second thought, it's just one of many Wikipedia controversies that could easily be part of the list. I would say keep it as an independent article if the article was longer and the topic was more significant, but this is just a larger than usual internal conflict on Wikipedia that got the media's attention. While I'm not fully opposed to keeping, I find merging a better choice. Waddles🗩🖉23:53, 24 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep, an encyclopedic and very well sourced example of how the world's best, largest, and arguably strangest encyclopedia - when questioning how it grew and succeeded despite a framework which, as someone famously said, cannot work in theory but only in practice - runs behind the scenery, where the wild things roam.
Randy Kryn (
talk)
03:06, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge just not the quality or quantity of sources neded for a standalone article.There's very little to say about the dispute itself. That said, it does clearly qualify for an entry on the List of Wikipedia controversies.
Hemiauchenia (
talk)
03:18, 25 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep per reasoning above. The article is linked to at
List of Wikipedia controversies now, I don't think a merge would be beneficial due to the length of that article. It is beneficial to our readers to keep this so the list article doesn't become too convoluted, but people can click through to find more information on this article if they wish.
NemesisAT (
talk)
20:07, 28 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge. Are we looking at the same sources here? Setting aside the one
ABOUTSELF source and the xkcd reference, we have two from right when it happened, one of them rather short; one from a month later, a follow-up to the longer of those two; and then two paragraphs in a listicle published this year. I don't see how any of that qualifies as
persistent coverage. Think for a moment about if this weren't a Wikipedia-related topic. We routinely delete articles on non-notable hashtags and memes that have received far more coverage than is demonstrated here. Usually every time a new big hashtag emerges, every publication looking for some clicks will write an article about that hashtag, and then may call back to it later on. We could also make the case for articles on a lot of r/AskReddit threads, a lot of AMAs on r/IAmA, and a lot of viral Tumblr posts. But none of these things enjoy in-depth coverage in the moment, nor enduring coverage afterward.
The first Daily Dot article, which seems to have given the longest coverage, does summarize the perspectives here, but not much more than in your standard "See what people are tweeting!" article. It doesn't have much depth to it beyond that. If this is to be kept, and we aren't granting special status to Wikipedia-related content, then we're opening the door to articles on every Twitter, Reddit, or Tumblr thread with a comparable level of coverage. --
Tamzincetacean needed (she/they)18:04, 29 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Speedy Keep Per the
law of holes, "when you're in a hole, stop digging!". What Wikipedians like to do is fill the hole in and then dig it again. Repeatedly. It boosts everyone's edit count but it's not very productive is it? As people already have come up with some sensible ideas above and none of them require deletion, we seem to be done here. See also
WP:INTODARKNESS.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
12:51, 31 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Redirect to
List of Wikipedia controversies#2013, where it is adequately covered. Despite that many links above, there are a total of three sources here.
[4][5][6]. Two are published by the Daily Dot, one by Slate, and all published in a span of a couple weeks. All of the other sources linked (I just opened them all) are single sentence mentions and don't help notability. [Internal Wikipedia stuff] + [something fun/quirky] = Almost impossible to delete at AfD, I'm finding, regardless of sourcing. — Rhododendritestalk \\
14:01, 31 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep as others have said, this is definitely notable enough to be a Wikipedia article, with sources covering the argument. If keep fails then I'd suggest to make a redirect.
Heythereimaguy (
talk)
00:15, 1 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete or Re-direct to list of lamest edit wars - Wikipedia has had many disputes over article titles. PS: I hope an article isn't created about this AfD.
GoodDay (
talk)
04:01, 1 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep We have two enduring sources 2016 and 2021 (the 2016 source was just added by me). There may be more missed, and more in the future, 8 years is too soon to declare it a dead item when some sources continue to reference it over time. --
GreenC05:51, 1 November 2021 (UTC)reply
To be fair, the 2016 source in question brings up the controversy as a single-sentence example brought up in a larger point about Wikipedia's style of discussion and consensus—but I think it's time for this discussion to come to a close, however that comes down.
theleekycauldron (
talk •
contribs) (
they/them)
07:28, 1 November 2021 (UTC)reply
That's true but the entire article is about Wikipedia, the author chose a select few case examples to illustrate in the opening paragraphs for the points he would make further into the article. --
GreenC16:21, 1 November 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep based on the sourcing, but a merge is not a terrible outcome and should be handled as a talk page discussion if desired. Barely anyone here is arguing for outright deletion, which is good, because if we did that, I suspect Randall Munroe might pen another XKCD about how Wikipedia deletes things that end up making his older cartoons less funny, only it would be far wittier than the potential summary I've done.
Jclemens (
talk)
17:57, 1 November 2021 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.