Hi, I am trying to develop Anekantavada as a featured article candidate and require your help for additional contributions and improvements. I have got it peer reviewed by Ruhrfisch ( talk · contribs) and Alastair Haines ( talk · contribs) and require additional independent opinion. If you have sometime, I would appreciate your help in this matter. Thanks.-- Anish ( talk) 06:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
You accused me of violating WP:NOR here [1]. That is a serious accusation. Could you tell me if you read my sourcing, the Cramer and Olson paper, before you made your accusation? SaltyBoatr ( talk) 18:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I was attempting to avoid being drawn into arguments of minutiae. Regardless, let's address your edit: [2]
The paper does not purport to "confirm" any such claim. On the contrary, the paper puts forward the possibility of selection bias for such claims from previous sources. It does say that it is "unsurprising" that government documents discuss governmental functions and uses. However, the paper also makes it clear that "military service" is not the whole of this discussion. The paper does not say that the scope was simply expanded to non-governmental documents. It states the search was more comprehensive and casting it as does your edit is extremely dishonest. Commentaries on the Laws of England can hardly be cast as distinct from government usage, for example, as it was 'and is considered the authoritative source on the state of Anglo-American common law in the late 18th century. Indeed, it is even cited by the United States Supreme Court for such purposes. Additionally, the paper makes it further clear that the broad interpretation was the standard of common law at the time. One can hardly state that common law considerations are independent from governmental concerns.
These are just a few points that demonstrate the inappropriate use of the source. The edit on a very fundamental level commits original research, cherrypicking and grossly distorting the source to advance a position. If you earnestly cannot distinguish sufficiently between the correct and incorrect use of sources in an area that you hold a strong interest in (which is very common and quite human), then I would strongly recommend editing unrelated topics to take advantage of your strengths unhindered by bias. Vassyana ( talk) 20:16, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Upon consideration, it would be best to let this issue drop. While some information may be available or even public, it doesn't mean that it should be raised here on Wikipedia. Unless it is pertinent to the purposes of Wikipedia, it should not be raised here. While it is certainly not "outing" (and shouldn't be called such), raising it against the person's wishes with no obvious purpose for the encyclopedia could easily be construed as harassment and/or simply being disruptive to prove a point. I would encourage people to avoid hyperbolic and inaccurate language such a "outing" to describe raising the public information. However, I would also strongly encourage people to not raise the information, as I cannot fathom the purpose of raising it on Wikipedia. Vassyana ( talk) 21:20, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Hello,
Regarding working on this page, I am wondering about the appropriateness of soliciting outside help in sourcing the information found in the current version of the article. I'm assuming it would not be OK to have uninvolved partied editing the Trim page itself, but would it be appropriate for others to post source information and discuss things on the Trim talk page? I myself am only marginally familiar with the subject of Kender, and can conclude that the other involved parties are either in the same boat, or don't have the time to put in to getting the work done. BOZ ( talk) 15:06, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
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Vassyana, this may be a little bit of a long shot, but the pattern of behavior is just too familiar. Since you are familiar with the editor (I hesitate to actually name him/her without proof, but I think who it is may be obvious, please let me know if you want me to ID the suspected editor here or privately via email) that may be trying to dodge accountability for this anonymous/IP 72.197.197.215 revert, do you think you could look into it if you have the opportunity? I'm not sure yet if the information deleted in this edit appears elsewhere in the article (taking a quick look does not reveal the Cooke, or any other, source for that information), but I feel that controversial edits should be hashed out in the talk page, like the one that immediately preceded this revert. This type of behavior is really quite disruptive, since, if that information really does appear elsewhere in the article, this citation should have been added there to improve the reliability of the article per WP:RS. All we have now is a vague POV-based revert, the loss of an academic source, and no discussion on the talk page to learn if this citation was appropriately removed. Please accept my apologies if Wikipedia does not log the IP address of logged-in users and there's no way to track this situation. Thank you. -- tc2011 ( talk) 15:16, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
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I need help on chiropractic. -- Dēmatt (chat) 20:28, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Heya, we need to talk sometime soon, I figure. Will you have time? (Please reply per e-mail). -- Kim Bruning ( talk) 23:28, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Just to say howdy? :)
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Arcayne (cast a spell) 04:58, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Moved to AN/I here.
Moved to AN/I here
I enjoyed your comment on Wikipedia_talk:These_are_not_original_research#Neologisms. Your comment seems relevant in the context of current issues over neutrality in the titling of circumcision and female genital cutting. I believe that contradictory criteria are in fact used in determining the titles for these two articles. If you're interested, one comment of mine addressing this is here. In any case, very interesting stuff. Blackworm ( talk) 06:00, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
If we can courtesy blank the page, I'd be appreciative and would not object to closing the MfD. ScienceApologist ( talk) 15:20, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
A comment has been requested of you at Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Kender/Trim#Undue pressure - is mediation working?. :) BOZ ( talk) 15:40, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to thank you for your work on this rather horrendous case. I feel confident you acted with good faith, and appropriately in every way, and given the circumstances with remarkable patience.( olive ( talk) 15:41, 16 June 2008 (UTC))
Thank you for providing evidence about SA. That's all I really wanted. =) Shoemaker's Holiday ( talk) 18:41, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm just a IP and have noted that a nasty situation has developed on the article, a nasty situation has definately developed on its talk page. According to Wikipedia policies, I have got some Admins enroute to the affected article and the talk page to put a end to this war before it gets out of hand. I am not trying to disrupt, etc. anything at all, just trying to put a end to this war, no more, no less, so that editing can resume without someone backbiting someone else, worse. I hope I have done the right thing. 65.173.105.243 ( talk) 22:33, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I have spoon bending on my watchlist – along with a large number of other magic-related articles – because there is a tendency for the articles to be vandalized or redacted by amateur magicians attempting to stuff the cat back in the bag.
I saw a little while ago that Martinphi had edited spoon bending to remove references to Uri Geller: [8]. ScienceApologist partially reverted the changes about twelve hours later: [9].
Neither has edited the article before, and neither used the talk page. I can't see any obvious route to the article for SA other than through following Martinphi's contributions. From a purely editorial point of view, SA has probably struck a reasonable compromise — Uri Geller is arguably the most famous of the spoon-benders, and deserves mention in the article. The portion not restored probably went into too much detail, may have been an unreliable source, was mostly redundant with what followed, and didn't read well anyway.
I don't know enough context to censure either editor here, but I'm pretty sure that someone ought to call shenanigans. (Unfortunately, I'm short on time at the moment and can't get up to speed.) Since you took charge at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/User:MartinPhi, I'm hoping that youI know which wrists ought to be slapped here. It looks like SA was stalking Martinphi, but I also don't know what other restrictions Martinphi may be operating under with regard to magic/pseudoscience topics. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 15:23, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Martin removes a great deal of content without discussion here, again here, again here. Don't worry, though! As he branches from article to article you will dilligently follow and stop him from inserting his POV, right? It's not like your remidy provided him with a first-mover advantage given the total unwillingness of most to deal with his disruption. PouponOnToast ( talk) 18:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) I am not interested in MartinPhi's field of expertise, but I have seen one instance in the past where he was accused of altering a weight word, and there is one on the table right now. The current one has been described as "Martin's worst edit" and as the only recent edit among a list that could not be "construed as legitimate style edits or removal of unsourced claims". But replacing the "weight" word was absolutely necessary to turn nonsense into a reasonable definition, and if I remember correctly the previous one was exactly the same kind of situation. I already explained why in the ANI thread, but it was ignored. Here it is again.
Martinphi changed "Retrocognition […] is the alleged transfer of information […]" to "Retrocognition […] is the apparent transfer of information […]". Does it really take a mathematician (or an occultist) to see that if we define retrocognition as "alleged" nonsense we can no longer deny that it exists? ScienceApologist is one of a group of editors who are 1. pushing disparaging language into articles on controversial science related topics, and 2. doing it in a sloppy way that degrades the articles. I don't have a big problem with 1 other than that it undermines the articles' credibility, but I don't understand how anyone can think that 2 contributes to building an encyclopedia and reverting instances of 2 is an offence. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 09:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi Vassyana...
In the spirit of WP:DTTR and Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents/User:MartinPhi#Note_about_technology, I will be reverting all future warnings you make on my talkpage. I would ask you kindly to refrain from making them as they are insulting.
ScienceApologist ( talk) 18:23, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
You must have noticed Martin's most recent edits. I thought I'd bring some to your attention:
I have started a follow up at Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Tottering Blotspurs. Sincerely, -- Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles Tally-ho! 17:33, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
I notice a short message from me was removed from this page. If this is due to any mistake of mine, or there is something I do not know, please let me know. Otherwise - please let me know, I suppose! Redheylin ( talk) 23:13, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
there is a note for you here [15]-- talk-to-me! ( talk) 10:58, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
You may be interested in this proposal to revise the text for articles using non-English sources. -- ROGER DAVIES talk 04:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
You told Martin "Communication via edit summary is not sufficient." Whilst this is not "Removal of sourced information," which was your direct admonision, in this edit Martin makes POVness clims in his edit summary, which I believe leads to edit warring. I have not evaluated the "rightness" or "wrongness" of the edit. PouponOnToast ( talk) 19:40, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) As I mention above, I do not believe either edit is accurate. My point was, and is, that changing a statement based on opinion of what it should say isn't the best way to go about things. Stick to the sources. I apologize if I came across harsh, I simply trying to be to the point, so as to be clear. I am not taking any action to sanction you, but rather simply a making an attempt to be very clear about why such edits are problematic. My approach to that is to be blunt and forthright about the issue and how it is perceived. I apologize if that sometimes comes across as cold or harsh, but I really feel that pussyfooting around the issue in any way will not be helpful at all to the situation. Being clear, to the point and explicit about the problem, without window dressing or superficial niceties, is the best way to approach it and avoid any misunderstandings in my opinion. I do believe the edit was well-intentioned and made in good faith, but I also believe that it was a POV-push at the same time, as I explain above. If you cannot review the source, I would strongly recommend not rewording things that change the emphasis and impact of sourced statements. If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me with them. Vassyana ( talk) 22:56, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
I am relatively concerned by the recent accusation of disruption against Martin by POT.
In my mind, we must clearly delineate an action that is a deliberate disruption from one that that can create disruption. If a comment in an edit summary for example is considered to be a deliberate disruption then a good faith comment is made and the discussion moved to talk. An editor meaning to deliberately disrupt is unlikely to try and explain his point as Martin did here. In my experience deliberate disruption is usually a response to an imminent consensus-based change, which bogs down in some way ongoing editing. Such editors are generally not interested in real discussion.
Any comment at any time can adjust the flow of editing in a new direction. This is also disruptive if you will, but is part of the normal evolution of an article. Such comments must not be judged as disruptive to the ongoing collaborative environment of the encyclopedia, which is what I assume Martin must be careful of. Any editor must feel that they can comment and edit in a way that is appropriate to Wikipedia policy and guidelines. Using a single comment in an edit summary as a case for disruption can only breed fear, is a slippery slope leading to an overly, complex, muddled environment and is inappropriate in the environment we need here.
Martin's edit summary was completely appropriate. At no time on Wikipedia, as other editors have stated above, should we be using statements like "scientists say, or as another example art critics say," unless we are willing to line up every scientist/ critic in the world and start to hand out questionnaires. Such wording must be considered a generalized, blanket statement and is WP:Weasel wording.
If weight in an article must be shown to create the proper sense of how scientists for example "weigh in" on a topic, then first the comments must be attributed to specific scientists or reliable, verifiable articles on the topic, then the article itself can contain subheadings under which the appropriate, attributed comments can be placed. If multiple scientists weigh in against a topic as opposed to one or two weighing in for the topic, then these sections will and can indicate the weight of each those opinions and will create an appropriate NPOV article. Although we all may agree that most if not all scientists have a particular view on something, to say so in this way is an article is OR and synthesis since I as an editor must find some' who feel this way and then make a jump in logic to assume that those some represent all. This is not an encyclopedic standard. Martin's comment stated the obvious as per guidlines and policy( olive ( talk) 17:11, 21 June 2008 (UTC))
In this edit, he invents a "disagree about the strength of the evidence for RV." One scientist says "it's pseudoscience." The other says "more evidence is required." This is not a disagreement - there is no source documenting a disagreement, just two people saying things that are, fundamentally, the same. PouponOnToast ( talk) 12:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Situation addressed. Other issues and situations involving that user and also about the broader topic area have also been addressed. See: [17] [18] [19] [20] Vassyana ( talk) 14:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi Vassyana, you don't know me but I have seen you around lately in different areas. I just wanted to say that you impress me with a lot of your comments and your honest open opinions on matters. I hope my coming here to say this is alright. I just felt I had to tell you this. Thanks and have a good healthy day, -- CrohnieGal Talk 14:38, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi Vassyana,
I will not continue to edit WP if I cannot follow the sources. You are right that the article is rather negative- it was written by JzG and other skeptics. I looked up what Hyman said in other places, and it is even more positive than I portrayed. I have yet to review the actual gov't report. The Wiseman quote is a reflection of Utts- he actually said it is proven to the standards of other sciences, and I portrayed him correctly as saying it needs further testing to be accepted. That's a very big distinction from calling it pseudoscience.
At any rate, I cannot edit under these circumstances, which essentially have you making content decisions based upon your interpretation of the subject matter. If admins are -in essence- allowed to block or ban based on their own take on the subject, WP would never work. It certainly won't work for me. I have to edit based on my understanding of the subject and the sources, and that is what I did, portraying the difference between the skeptical positions accurately. At this point, barring a change in my understanding, I will be requesting an indefinite block. I will ask that you note in your edit summary on the block that I requested it myself (in case I wish to come back in the future).
I have been planning this for some time anyway, due to the continual negative atmosphere, which your recent sanctions against me and SA have done nothing little to help. If one could simply portray the sources and discuss them withoutbias, that would be one thing, but one cannot. —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 15:07, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
"the entire purpose of the article is a rebuttal of Utts statements" Indeed. And that's NPOV?
Never claimed support. There is a huge difference between "pseudoscience" and "It has good results, but needs more to be accepted, "which is what Wiseman and Hyman say.
Admins are not supposed to be making content decisions.
I did not misrepresent the sources except in that I portrayed them more negatively than is warranted. I apologize.
If the article, as you say, is making an argument, then NPOVing the lead is not a bad thing, it only indicates a work in progress. As I said, it was written by absolutist skeptics.
But I won't argue with you about the sources, which I was continuing to research. To be blunt and analytical, instead of polite as I usually am, there is sufficient stupidity to leave even without you making content decisions and misinterpreting the sources and acting as if it's OK for the article to be making an argument...... and then saying if I go against that "argument," I'm doing something wrong. —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 16:02, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
I am incredibly sad to have this happen Martin. I respect Vassyna's input in this and his fairness, but feel also that this is a content based decision and is subject to subjective interpretation, and therefor not appropriate material for a topic ban especially given your obviously honest and good faith efforts to portray the material.My understanding of collaborative communities of which I have a fair amount of experience given my teaching area, and in my recent reading leads me to know that however harassed SA is was last night this isn't the wild west and law must rest with the community, and that comments on you at this time are deflective rather than appropriate good faith comments. This was my warning about quick-sand ahead. As well this comment [21] leads me to feel doubly concerned for a decision made at this time which in effect discourages an editor badly enough to walk away. This kind of comment, however, honestly made and believed does not serve a collaborative community, is destructive, and should be taken into account in the present dispute climate. I can't say how sad this makes me feel, or how discouraged I feel ( olive ( talk) 16:07, 23 June 2008 (UTC))
Yes... and so I would make a very clear distinction, as I did earlier, between edits that are good faith edits, but that run counter to general agreement and which in discussion bring into question some edit or idea, and that are the everyday providence of Wikipedia article writing.
..In my mind, we must clearly delineate an action that is a deliberate disruption from one that that can create disruption. If a comment in an edit summary for example is considered to be a deliberate disruption then a good faith comment is made and the discussion moved to talk. An editor meaning to deliberately disrupt is unlikely to try and explain his point... In my experience deliberate disruption is usually a response to an imminent consensus-based change, which bogs down in some way ongoing editing. Such editors are generally not interested in real discussion. Any comment at any time can adjust the flow of editing in a new direction. This is also disruptive if you will, but is part of the normal evolution of an article. Such comments must not be judged as disruptive to the ongoing collaborative environment of the encyclopedia... Any editor must feel that they can comment and edit in a way that is appropriate to Wikipedia policy and guidelines.
( olive ( talk) 18:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC))
Here is what Wiseman said about Utts. As has been quoted in the body of the RV article for months.
—Richard Wiseman, Daily Mail, January 28, 2008, pp 28-29
What Martin was doing was aligning the intro with the body of the article. What is "mindboggling" is how anyone can claim that that quote was so badly POV'd by Martin that he needs to be topic banned. 66.246.218.188 ( talk) 19:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, absolutely. This is my opinion. I believe the "intentional" is implied, though. Nowhere in Wikipedia guidelines or policies is there a place where editors are reprimanded for making mistakes. Its not part of the way this community was setup or functions.( olive ( talk) 22:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC))
Vassyana, could you take a look at this and follow up in whatever way to deem to be appropriate? A syn tag was added to Chiropractic, and is still being discussed on the talk page. However, QuackGuru seems to have decided that he can ignore the ongoing discussion and remove the tag because he feels it isn't a syn issue. ( & discussion). Thanks DigitalC ( talk) 23:46, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi Vassyana, Thanks for asking! I've responded to your question on my talk page. -- Dēmatt (chat) 02:43, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I noticed that you gave apparent "permission" [23] to an IP user to close Requested Move discussions in certain circumstances. This user closed a discussion here that had six "votes" (3-3) after 2 days, archiving the discussion on the Talk page and removing the request from WP:RM. I reverted the first close. WP:RM calls for administrators to evaluate thusly: Requests are generally processed after five days, although backlogs of a few days develop occasionally. If there is a clear consensus after this time, the request will be closed and acted upon. If not, the administrator may choose to re-list the request to allow time for consensus to develop, or close it as "no consensus". The IP user closed it again. I reverted again, and this sparked a discussion here. Perhaps you could review this, and offer a comment to the IP user and/or me. Thank you. Blackworm ( talk) 03:10, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
The proposal for the Wikipedia and School CD-ROMs are up. The proposal is here and I am waiting for your support. Thanks!Mitch32 09:58, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I apologize if I am misinterpreting your comment, but if the bit about academics was directed at me, I must object. Yes - were I to decide to devote a large share of my time to sourcing articles on fictional subjects, I could find good sources for a lot of things. However I do not have the luxury of that time. I have decided, with the time I have to commit to editing Wikipedia, to push for general changes that will protect the way I use Wikipedia as a reader - which is, frankly, the more important pursuit for me since it ties in with my career. I am sorry you find my focus on reader experience disheartening. Rest assured that I find your public condemnation of it far more so. Phil Sandifer ( talk) 16:32, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
You were a tremendous help early on, and then I lost steam. I'd like to get back to editing Baptism, etc., and Lima is already making it harder. Do you think that we have enough to move forward? See User:Leadwind/LimaRFC. At this point, I've given up trying to make it perfect and would be happy just to make something happen. Leadwind ( talk) 14:50, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
V, sorry to read about the finger. And very sorry to see that photo of it. Thanks again for your help on Baptism. You say I'm way off base about the Jesus baptizing citations, etc. If I'm off-base, I want to know so I can stop making myself out to be a jerk. You should know that I am prone to rhetorical flourishes, but that doesn't always translate into policy. I don't want to exclude information from the page. I just want to label it right in the right context. Here's how I understand it. NPOV says that good scholarship is good scholarship, regardless of the scholar's religion (or sexual orientation, race, etc.). Raymond Brown's work on the Johannine community is recognized as expert. We don't refer to him as "Roman Catholic scholar Raymond Brown." But when a source's goal is religious, its religious nature is noted. It's not a violation of NPOV to say "Catholic theologians affirm the Pope's primacy" in place of "Many theologians affirm the Pope's primacy." So if there are historical sources that say one thing and theological sources that say another, it's right to let the reader know which is which. If it can get published in a nonsectarian scholarly journal, it's plain old good history. If it's an expression of religious faith, it's a notable POV. In fact, in the current text Brodie is described as a theologian, not as a scholar or historian. That's as it should be, right? Leadwind ( talk) 03:37, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
(undent)Let me lay out what I'd like to see, and you tell me what you think. If we are far apart, I'll drop it. If we can get the page partway to what I'd like, let's do that and be done with it. As for me, I'd like to see two sections on Jesus-and-baptism, one for Jesus and one for the Christian tradition about Jesus. I want the Jesus section to be about what historians say, just like the "Early Christian bishops" section is what historians say about Early Christian bishops. And the Christian-tradition section includes the New Testament section. The Cambridge Guide material either goes here or goes in the Jesus section where it's labeled as an attempt to reconcile historical Jesus and orthodox Jesus. There is no information in this section, off-hand, that I'd want to exclude. In fact, I'm dying to know why scholars think that the "Jesus-didn't-baptize-directly" line is an interpolation. The topic only comes up in a paragraph designed to nix that interpretation, not to describe it, so the reader doesn't even know why scholars would think such a thing in the first place. Leadwind ( talk) 03:10, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
User talk:ScienceApologist#Use of Twinkle and minor tag (moved from Talk:Quackwatch) may need your attention since you communicate with SA more than I. Some users noted that SA was using TW to mark major reverts as minor at Quackwatch, and the same was done at Cold Fusion. seicer | talk | contribs 14:27, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
I am trying hard to disentangle from ScienceApologist as you have suggested. However, his recent treatment of me is abhorrent. Over at Talk:Atropa belladonna, he keeps "hiding" my comments, referring to them as disruptive. Now he has posted an unjust AN/I report about me and is actively canvassing for support [24] [25]. How do you suggest I respond (if at all)? Thanks. -- Levine2112 discuss 19:48, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Vassyana, thanks for your help with Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-02-11 Parkour. I’m thinking however that it may be time to peruse formal mediation. What are your thoughts? -- S.dedalus ( talk) 20:35, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Wow, meditation must be way more dangerous than I thought! :D Jokes apart, I hope that you recover well, and that you don't get too many markings on your face from whatever hit you. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 00:55, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for all the well-wishes. It still hurts a lot, but the swelling has started to go down, bringing me great relief, especially in the face. So, I should be around sporadically, if a touch slow. Vassyana ( talk) 14:28, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
So sorry to hear about your injuries...and that photo speaks a thousand words of pain...feel better fast..! (and I certainly hope you have some good pain pills...;) Dreadstar † 05:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
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Hi Vassyanah. I realize that the recent discussion taking place on Talk:Torah represents a meeting of very strong differences in perspective. Perhaps we'll all learn something. I'll begin by agreeing that the article was never terribly balanced to begin with and recent have made things even less so. I also agree that sub-headers with titles like "foreign" perspectives are completely inappropriate. I have long supported articles on religious subjects which present both academic and religious perspectives. Judaism is a particularly scholarly religion. There are recognized leading scholars, academies, commentators, legal arbiters, etc. that bear a relatively straightforward analogy to the academic world. For this reason, my view has been that religious commentators with widespread and documentable regard in the religious world are reliable for presenting specifically religious perspectives (identified as such). I acknowledge this is not necessarily the case for all religions or religious subjects, because "reliability" isn't necessarily definable in religions that aren't as organized or centered around academies. (Islam, among other religions, has a similar system of recognized academies and a legal-scholarship tradition). Therefore, my perspective has been to try to support Haredi and other traditional religious editors and give them some leeway in presenting religious perspectives using high-quality religious sources, while trying to keep them from removing or discounting all other scholarship. I realize this has sometimes resulted in articles with a rather bland introduction with controversies dealt with in later sections. Every now and then we get an academic editor who wants to remove all the religious content or everything sourced to religious sources, and then I see it as my role, in maintaining balance, to try to prevent one extreme from taking complete control of the article, just as I see it as my role to try and prevent the other. Wishing you a speedy recovery. Best, -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 10:25, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi, you don't know me but I kind of followed a trail of difs to here and saw the picture and your description. You must be in horrible pain and discomfort so I just wanted to drop in wish you well and to tell you I hope the healing process is going well for you. I am assuming some kind of an accident caused this but I didn't take the time to look at your talk page first, sorry. But anyways, I just wanted to wish you well and hope the healing is going well. Take care and I hope you are feeling better with every hour that passes. -- CrohnieGal Talk 19:18, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Abrahamic religion is a term. A religious term is something inherent to the religion it is used in, and Abrahamic is not. Comparative religions studies don't use Abrahamic since there is not such religion, i.e. no group associated with it. It is therefore political, in the sense that it seeks to group populations by reclassifying them. For example Workers and Peasants Party, or Capitalists, or the Third World. It is not meant to be insulting, just a matter of fact. The book used was not cited, that is no page number was provided. I am not going to read a whole book because someone picked out a paragraph in it and forgot to mention the fact, so it goes into recommended readings until someone decides to to go fishing for the substantiation of the statement being made--Meieimatai 06:08, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
PS. Something "classical" does not originate in the 1960s ;-)(except classic rock and roll)--Meieimatai 06:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Hey there. A Wikiquette alert was recently submitted ( here), which involves a case you are currently mediating. I am not sure if WQA is really equipped to advise regarding a case that is already in mediation. In any case, the diffs provided by S.dedalus to not show egregious breaches of civility, and the case is a bit on the long side for me to want to read it to get the appropriate context.
I am inclined to just refer it back to the mediation case (saying "Take it to mediation" is not an uncommon outcome for WQAs, heh). Do you have an opinion on how this should be handled? -- Jaysweet ( talk) 15:49, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
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The Original Barnstar | |
For your astute and insightful comments and rebuffs in the current debate at Talk:Torah. DRosenbach ( Talk | Contribs) 16:24, 13 July 2008 (UTC) |
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The Painkiller Star | |
For managing to type with a hand that looks like the one at the top of the page. Ouch! Dr. e X treme 20:18, 13 July 2008 (UTC)| |
I didn't realise it was that bad :-S Ryan Postlethwaite 23:05, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Those are good edits. Kaisershatner ( talk) 21:16, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Sorry about your injury, hope you get better soon!
I'm wrirint to ask if you take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_breese and put in your vote to keep or delete, I am rather outnumbered by some non-spiritual people, could use someone who has a co-operative energy to look into the matter on a spiritual teacher article. Also please look into another article that was deleted that has been there for years at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_metaphysical_sciences but was deleted by a user as soon as I linked to it. Thanx ( SpiritBeing ( talk) 09:21, 16 July 2008 (UTC)SpiritBeing)
Vassyana - I am trying to understand what you think the bias is when stating that Abraham's story reflects the birth of Judaism essentially. I am not saying that I agree or disagree when it is worded that way, but I do not see what the bias is. The article still states that he is a key figure in Christianity and Islam. Thanks. Sposer ( talk) 12:36, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
... for the note and barnstar. Incidentally, did you notice that I referenced a case you mediated at the top of my new, improved, more bitter and cynical userpage?
On a serious note, I hope you're mending well. Those injuries look pretty rough, so I hope you're doing OK. MastCell Talk 04:10, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
hello. i quoted something that you wrote about reliable sources on the Tucker Max discussion page. I believe that i quoted you with the proper essence of the point you were trying to make and not out of context. if you believe that i quoted you out of context or if you believe your quote to be non-applicable to the situation, please let me know so that i can strike out the quote. (please note, i am not soliciting for help or comments on the article, just clarification on whether i represented your quote accurately.) thanks. Theserialcomma ( talk) 21:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
I am extremely sorry for that IP tag ... it likely permitted the vandal to keep working longer, so while I'm grateful you shut them down, I do apologize for that screw up.
Also, I'm not sure if that picture is of your hand or not, but as someone who once had a finger joint shattered, and the enjoyment of pins, a cast, and a joint permanently fused, I can sympathize a bit. I hope your recovery is speedy and pain free. LonelyBeacon ( talk) 05:13, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Hello again Vassyana,
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Hi, I am trying to develop Anekantavada as a featured article candidate and require your help for additional contributions and improvements. I have got it peer reviewed by Ruhrfisch ( talk · contribs) and Alastair Haines ( talk · contribs) and require additional independent opinion. If you have sometime, I would appreciate your help in this matter. Thanks.-- Anish ( talk) 06:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
You accused me of violating WP:NOR here [1]. That is a serious accusation. Could you tell me if you read my sourcing, the Cramer and Olson paper, before you made your accusation? SaltyBoatr ( talk) 18:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I was attempting to avoid being drawn into arguments of minutiae. Regardless, let's address your edit: [2]
The paper does not purport to "confirm" any such claim. On the contrary, the paper puts forward the possibility of selection bias for such claims from previous sources. It does say that it is "unsurprising" that government documents discuss governmental functions and uses. However, the paper also makes it clear that "military service" is not the whole of this discussion. The paper does not say that the scope was simply expanded to non-governmental documents. It states the search was more comprehensive and casting it as does your edit is extremely dishonest. Commentaries on the Laws of England can hardly be cast as distinct from government usage, for example, as it was 'and is considered the authoritative source on the state of Anglo-American common law in the late 18th century. Indeed, it is even cited by the United States Supreme Court for such purposes. Additionally, the paper makes it further clear that the broad interpretation was the standard of common law at the time. One can hardly state that common law considerations are independent from governmental concerns.
These are just a few points that demonstrate the inappropriate use of the source. The edit on a very fundamental level commits original research, cherrypicking and grossly distorting the source to advance a position. If you earnestly cannot distinguish sufficiently between the correct and incorrect use of sources in an area that you hold a strong interest in (which is very common and quite human), then I would strongly recommend editing unrelated topics to take advantage of your strengths unhindered by bias. Vassyana ( talk) 20:16, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Upon consideration, it would be best to let this issue drop. While some information may be available or even public, it doesn't mean that it should be raised here on Wikipedia. Unless it is pertinent to the purposes of Wikipedia, it should not be raised here. While it is certainly not "outing" (and shouldn't be called such), raising it against the person's wishes with no obvious purpose for the encyclopedia could easily be construed as harassment and/or simply being disruptive to prove a point. I would encourage people to avoid hyperbolic and inaccurate language such a "outing" to describe raising the public information. However, I would also strongly encourage people to not raise the information, as I cannot fathom the purpose of raising it on Wikipedia. Vassyana ( talk) 21:20, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Hello,
Regarding working on this page, I am wondering about the appropriateness of soliciting outside help in sourcing the information found in the current version of the article. I'm assuming it would not be OK to have uninvolved partied editing the Trim page itself, but would it be appropriate for others to post source information and discuss things on the Trim talk page? I myself am only marginally familiar with the subject of Kender, and can conclude that the other involved parties are either in the same boat, or don't have the time to put in to getting the work done. BOZ ( talk) 15:06, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
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Vassyana, this may be a little bit of a long shot, but the pattern of behavior is just too familiar. Since you are familiar with the editor (I hesitate to actually name him/her without proof, but I think who it is may be obvious, please let me know if you want me to ID the suspected editor here or privately via email) that may be trying to dodge accountability for this anonymous/IP 72.197.197.215 revert, do you think you could look into it if you have the opportunity? I'm not sure yet if the information deleted in this edit appears elsewhere in the article (taking a quick look does not reveal the Cooke, or any other, source for that information), but I feel that controversial edits should be hashed out in the talk page, like the one that immediately preceded this revert. This type of behavior is really quite disruptive, since, if that information really does appear elsewhere in the article, this citation should have been added there to improve the reliability of the article per WP:RS. All we have now is a vague POV-based revert, the loss of an academic source, and no discussion on the talk page to learn if this citation was appropriately removed. Please accept my apologies if Wikipedia does not log the IP address of logged-in users and there's no way to track this situation. Thank you. -- tc2011 ( talk) 15:16, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
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I need help on chiropractic. -- Dēmatt (chat) 20:28, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Heya, we need to talk sometime soon, I figure. Will you have time? (Please reply per e-mail). -- Kim Bruning ( talk) 23:28, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Just to say howdy? :)
Arcayne has given you a c ookie! Cookies promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. You can spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a cookie, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. {{subst:if||| {{{message}}} ||subst=subst:}} To spread the goodness of cookies, you can add {{ subst:Cookie}} to someone's talk page with a friendly message, or eat this cookie on the giver's talk page with {{ subst:munch}}!
Arcayne (cast a spell) 04:58, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Moved to AN/I here.
Moved to AN/I here
I enjoyed your comment on Wikipedia_talk:These_are_not_original_research#Neologisms. Your comment seems relevant in the context of current issues over neutrality in the titling of circumcision and female genital cutting. I believe that contradictory criteria are in fact used in determining the titles for these two articles. If you're interested, one comment of mine addressing this is here. In any case, very interesting stuff. Blackworm ( talk) 06:00, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
If we can courtesy blank the page, I'd be appreciative and would not object to closing the MfD. ScienceApologist ( talk) 15:20, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
A comment has been requested of you at Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Kender/Trim#Undue pressure - is mediation working?. :) BOZ ( talk) 15:40, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to thank you for your work on this rather horrendous case. I feel confident you acted with good faith, and appropriately in every way, and given the circumstances with remarkable patience.( olive ( talk) 15:41, 16 June 2008 (UTC))
Thank you for providing evidence about SA. That's all I really wanted. =) Shoemaker's Holiday ( talk) 18:41, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm just a IP and have noted that a nasty situation has developed on the article, a nasty situation has definately developed on its talk page. According to Wikipedia policies, I have got some Admins enroute to the affected article and the talk page to put a end to this war before it gets out of hand. I am not trying to disrupt, etc. anything at all, just trying to put a end to this war, no more, no less, so that editing can resume without someone backbiting someone else, worse. I hope I have done the right thing. 65.173.105.243 ( talk) 22:33, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I have spoon bending on my watchlist – along with a large number of other magic-related articles – because there is a tendency for the articles to be vandalized or redacted by amateur magicians attempting to stuff the cat back in the bag.
I saw a little while ago that Martinphi had edited spoon bending to remove references to Uri Geller: [8]. ScienceApologist partially reverted the changes about twelve hours later: [9].
Neither has edited the article before, and neither used the talk page. I can't see any obvious route to the article for SA other than through following Martinphi's contributions. From a purely editorial point of view, SA has probably struck a reasonable compromise — Uri Geller is arguably the most famous of the spoon-benders, and deserves mention in the article. The portion not restored probably went into too much detail, may have been an unreliable source, was mostly redundant with what followed, and didn't read well anyway.
I don't know enough context to censure either editor here, but I'm pretty sure that someone ought to call shenanigans. (Unfortunately, I'm short on time at the moment and can't get up to speed.) Since you took charge at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/User:MartinPhi, I'm hoping that youI know which wrists ought to be slapped here. It looks like SA was stalking Martinphi, but I also don't know what other restrictions Martinphi may be operating under with regard to magic/pseudoscience topics. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 15:23, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Martin removes a great deal of content without discussion here, again here, again here. Don't worry, though! As he branches from article to article you will dilligently follow and stop him from inserting his POV, right? It's not like your remidy provided him with a first-mover advantage given the total unwillingness of most to deal with his disruption. PouponOnToast ( talk) 18:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) I am not interested in MartinPhi's field of expertise, but I have seen one instance in the past where he was accused of altering a weight word, and there is one on the table right now. The current one has been described as "Martin's worst edit" and as the only recent edit among a list that could not be "construed as legitimate style edits or removal of unsourced claims". But replacing the "weight" word was absolutely necessary to turn nonsense into a reasonable definition, and if I remember correctly the previous one was exactly the same kind of situation. I already explained why in the ANI thread, but it was ignored. Here it is again.
Martinphi changed "Retrocognition […] is the alleged transfer of information […]" to "Retrocognition […] is the apparent transfer of information […]". Does it really take a mathematician (or an occultist) to see that if we define retrocognition as "alleged" nonsense we can no longer deny that it exists? ScienceApologist is one of a group of editors who are 1. pushing disparaging language into articles on controversial science related topics, and 2. doing it in a sloppy way that degrades the articles. I don't have a big problem with 1 other than that it undermines the articles' credibility, but I don't understand how anyone can think that 2 contributes to building an encyclopedia and reverting instances of 2 is an offence. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 09:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi Vassyana...
In the spirit of WP:DTTR and Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents/User:MartinPhi#Note_about_technology, I will be reverting all future warnings you make on my talkpage. I would ask you kindly to refrain from making them as they are insulting.
ScienceApologist ( talk) 18:23, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
You must have noticed Martin's most recent edits. I thought I'd bring some to your attention:
I have started a follow up at Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Tottering Blotspurs. Sincerely, -- Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles Tally-ho! 17:33, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
I notice a short message from me was removed from this page. If this is due to any mistake of mine, or there is something I do not know, please let me know. Otherwise - please let me know, I suppose! Redheylin ( talk) 23:13, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
there is a note for you here [15]-- talk-to-me! ( talk) 10:58, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
You may be interested in this proposal to revise the text for articles using non-English sources. -- ROGER DAVIES talk 04:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
You told Martin "Communication via edit summary is not sufficient." Whilst this is not "Removal of sourced information," which was your direct admonision, in this edit Martin makes POVness clims in his edit summary, which I believe leads to edit warring. I have not evaluated the "rightness" or "wrongness" of the edit. PouponOnToast ( talk) 19:40, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) As I mention above, I do not believe either edit is accurate. My point was, and is, that changing a statement based on opinion of what it should say isn't the best way to go about things. Stick to the sources. I apologize if I came across harsh, I simply trying to be to the point, so as to be clear. I am not taking any action to sanction you, but rather simply a making an attempt to be very clear about why such edits are problematic. My approach to that is to be blunt and forthright about the issue and how it is perceived. I apologize if that sometimes comes across as cold or harsh, but I really feel that pussyfooting around the issue in any way will not be helpful at all to the situation. Being clear, to the point and explicit about the problem, without window dressing or superficial niceties, is the best way to approach it and avoid any misunderstandings in my opinion. I do believe the edit was well-intentioned and made in good faith, but I also believe that it was a POV-push at the same time, as I explain above. If you cannot review the source, I would strongly recommend not rewording things that change the emphasis and impact of sourced statements. If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me with them. Vassyana ( talk) 22:56, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
I am relatively concerned by the recent accusation of disruption against Martin by POT.
In my mind, we must clearly delineate an action that is a deliberate disruption from one that that can create disruption. If a comment in an edit summary for example is considered to be a deliberate disruption then a good faith comment is made and the discussion moved to talk. An editor meaning to deliberately disrupt is unlikely to try and explain his point as Martin did here. In my experience deliberate disruption is usually a response to an imminent consensus-based change, which bogs down in some way ongoing editing. Such editors are generally not interested in real discussion.
Any comment at any time can adjust the flow of editing in a new direction. This is also disruptive if you will, but is part of the normal evolution of an article. Such comments must not be judged as disruptive to the ongoing collaborative environment of the encyclopedia, which is what I assume Martin must be careful of. Any editor must feel that they can comment and edit in a way that is appropriate to Wikipedia policy and guidelines. Using a single comment in an edit summary as a case for disruption can only breed fear, is a slippery slope leading to an overly, complex, muddled environment and is inappropriate in the environment we need here.
Martin's edit summary was completely appropriate. At no time on Wikipedia, as other editors have stated above, should we be using statements like "scientists say, or as another example art critics say," unless we are willing to line up every scientist/ critic in the world and start to hand out questionnaires. Such wording must be considered a generalized, blanket statement and is WP:Weasel wording.
If weight in an article must be shown to create the proper sense of how scientists for example "weigh in" on a topic, then first the comments must be attributed to specific scientists or reliable, verifiable articles on the topic, then the article itself can contain subheadings under which the appropriate, attributed comments can be placed. If multiple scientists weigh in against a topic as opposed to one or two weighing in for the topic, then these sections will and can indicate the weight of each those opinions and will create an appropriate NPOV article. Although we all may agree that most if not all scientists have a particular view on something, to say so in this way is an article is OR and synthesis since I as an editor must find some' who feel this way and then make a jump in logic to assume that those some represent all. This is not an encyclopedic standard. Martin's comment stated the obvious as per guidlines and policy( olive ( talk) 17:11, 21 June 2008 (UTC))
In this edit, he invents a "disagree about the strength of the evidence for RV." One scientist says "it's pseudoscience." The other says "more evidence is required." This is not a disagreement - there is no source documenting a disagreement, just two people saying things that are, fundamentally, the same. PouponOnToast ( talk) 12:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Situation addressed. Other issues and situations involving that user and also about the broader topic area have also been addressed. See: [17] [18] [19] [20] Vassyana ( talk) 14:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi Vassyana, you don't know me but I have seen you around lately in different areas. I just wanted to say that you impress me with a lot of your comments and your honest open opinions on matters. I hope my coming here to say this is alright. I just felt I had to tell you this. Thanks and have a good healthy day, -- CrohnieGal Talk 14:38, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi Vassyana,
I will not continue to edit WP if I cannot follow the sources. You are right that the article is rather negative- it was written by JzG and other skeptics. I looked up what Hyman said in other places, and it is even more positive than I portrayed. I have yet to review the actual gov't report. The Wiseman quote is a reflection of Utts- he actually said it is proven to the standards of other sciences, and I portrayed him correctly as saying it needs further testing to be accepted. That's a very big distinction from calling it pseudoscience.
At any rate, I cannot edit under these circumstances, which essentially have you making content decisions based upon your interpretation of the subject matter. If admins are -in essence- allowed to block or ban based on their own take on the subject, WP would never work. It certainly won't work for me. I have to edit based on my understanding of the subject and the sources, and that is what I did, portraying the difference between the skeptical positions accurately. At this point, barring a change in my understanding, I will be requesting an indefinite block. I will ask that you note in your edit summary on the block that I requested it myself (in case I wish to come back in the future).
I have been planning this for some time anyway, due to the continual negative atmosphere, which your recent sanctions against me and SA have done nothing little to help. If one could simply portray the sources and discuss them withoutbias, that would be one thing, but one cannot. —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 15:07, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
"the entire purpose of the article is a rebuttal of Utts statements" Indeed. And that's NPOV?
Never claimed support. There is a huge difference between "pseudoscience" and "It has good results, but needs more to be accepted, "which is what Wiseman and Hyman say.
Admins are not supposed to be making content decisions.
I did not misrepresent the sources except in that I portrayed them more negatively than is warranted. I apologize.
If the article, as you say, is making an argument, then NPOVing the lead is not a bad thing, it only indicates a work in progress. As I said, it was written by absolutist skeptics.
But I won't argue with you about the sources, which I was continuing to research. To be blunt and analytical, instead of polite as I usually am, there is sufficient stupidity to leave even without you making content decisions and misinterpreting the sources and acting as if it's OK for the article to be making an argument...... and then saying if I go against that "argument," I'm doing something wrong. —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 16:02, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
I am incredibly sad to have this happen Martin. I respect Vassyna's input in this and his fairness, but feel also that this is a content based decision and is subject to subjective interpretation, and therefor not appropriate material for a topic ban especially given your obviously honest and good faith efforts to portray the material.My understanding of collaborative communities of which I have a fair amount of experience given my teaching area, and in my recent reading leads me to know that however harassed SA is was last night this isn't the wild west and law must rest with the community, and that comments on you at this time are deflective rather than appropriate good faith comments. This was my warning about quick-sand ahead. As well this comment [21] leads me to feel doubly concerned for a decision made at this time which in effect discourages an editor badly enough to walk away. This kind of comment, however, honestly made and believed does not serve a collaborative community, is destructive, and should be taken into account in the present dispute climate. I can't say how sad this makes me feel, or how discouraged I feel ( olive ( talk) 16:07, 23 June 2008 (UTC))
Yes... and so I would make a very clear distinction, as I did earlier, between edits that are good faith edits, but that run counter to general agreement and which in discussion bring into question some edit or idea, and that are the everyday providence of Wikipedia article writing.
..In my mind, we must clearly delineate an action that is a deliberate disruption from one that that can create disruption. If a comment in an edit summary for example is considered to be a deliberate disruption then a good faith comment is made and the discussion moved to talk. An editor meaning to deliberately disrupt is unlikely to try and explain his point... In my experience deliberate disruption is usually a response to an imminent consensus-based change, which bogs down in some way ongoing editing. Such editors are generally not interested in real discussion. Any comment at any time can adjust the flow of editing in a new direction. This is also disruptive if you will, but is part of the normal evolution of an article. Such comments must not be judged as disruptive to the ongoing collaborative environment of the encyclopedia... Any editor must feel that they can comment and edit in a way that is appropriate to Wikipedia policy and guidelines.
( olive ( talk) 18:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC))
Here is what Wiseman said about Utts. As has been quoted in the body of the RV article for months.
—Richard Wiseman, Daily Mail, January 28, 2008, pp 28-29
What Martin was doing was aligning the intro with the body of the article. What is "mindboggling" is how anyone can claim that that quote was so badly POV'd by Martin that he needs to be topic banned. 66.246.218.188 ( talk) 19:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, absolutely. This is my opinion. I believe the "intentional" is implied, though. Nowhere in Wikipedia guidelines or policies is there a place where editors are reprimanded for making mistakes. Its not part of the way this community was setup or functions.( olive ( talk) 22:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC))
Vassyana, could you take a look at this and follow up in whatever way to deem to be appropriate? A syn tag was added to Chiropractic, and is still being discussed on the talk page. However, QuackGuru seems to have decided that he can ignore the ongoing discussion and remove the tag because he feels it isn't a syn issue. ( & discussion). Thanks DigitalC ( talk) 23:46, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi Vassyana, Thanks for asking! I've responded to your question on my talk page. -- Dēmatt (chat) 02:43, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I noticed that you gave apparent "permission" [23] to an IP user to close Requested Move discussions in certain circumstances. This user closed a discussion here that had six "votes" (3-3) after 2 days, archiving the discussion on the Talk page and removing the request from WP:RM. I reverted the first close. WP:RM calls for administrators to evaluate thusly: Requests are generally processed after five days, although backlogs of a few days develop occasionally. If there is a clear consensus after this time, the request will be closed and acted upon. If not, the administrator may choose to re-list the request to allow time for consensus to develop, or close it as "no consensus". The IP user closed it again. I reverted again, and this sparked a discussion here. Perhaps you could review this, and offer a comment to the IP user and/or me. Thank you. Blackworm ( talk) 03:10, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
The proposal for the Wikipedia and School CD-ROMs are up. The proposal is here and I am waiting for your support. Thanks!Mitch32 09:58, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I apologize if I am misinterpreting your comment, but if the bit about academics was directed at me, I must object. Yes - were I to decide to devote a large share of my time to sourcing articles on fictional subjects, I could find good sources for a lot of things. However I do not have the luxury of that time. I have decided, with the time I have to commit to editing Wikipedia, to push for general changes that will protect the way I use Wikipedia as a reader - which is, frankly, the more important pursuit for me since it ties in with my career. I am sorry you find my focus on reader experience disheartening. Rest assured that I find your public condemnation of it far more so. Phil Sandifer ( talk) 16:32, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
You were a tremendous help early on, and then I lost steam. I'd like to get back to editing Baptism, etc., and Lima is already making it harder. Do you think that we have enough to move forward? See User:Leadwind/LimaRFC. At this point, I've given up trying to make it perfect and would be happy just to make something happen. Leadwind ( talk) 14:50, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
V, sorry to read about the finger. And very sorry to see that photo of it. Thanks again for your help on Baptism. You say I'm way off base about the Jesus baptizing citations, etc. If I'm off-base, I want to know so I can stop making myself out to be a jerk. You should know that I am prone to rhetorical flourishes, but that doesn't always translate into policy. I don't want to exclude information from the page. I just want to label it right in the right context. Here's how I understand it. NPOV says that good scholarship is good scholarship, regardless of the scholar's religion (or sexual orientation, race, etc.). Raymond Brown's work on the Johannine community is recognized as expert. We don't refer to him as "Roman Catholic scholar Raymond Brown." But when a source's goal is religious, its religious nature is noted. It's not a violation of NPOV to say "Catholic theologians affirm the Pope's primacy" in place of "Many theologians affirm the Pope's primacy." So if there are historical sources that say one thing and theological sources that say another, it's right to let the reader know which is which. If it can get published in a nonsectarian scholarly journal, it's plain old good history. If it's an expression of religious faith, it's a notable POV. In fact, in the current text Brodie is described as a theologian, not as a scholar or historian. That's as it should be, right? Leadwind ( talk) 03:37, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
(undent)Let me lay out what I'd like to see, and you tell me what you think. If we are far apart, I'll drop it. If we can get the page partway to what I'd like, let's do that and be done with it. As for me, I'd like to see two sections on Jesus-and-baptism, one for Jesus and one for the Christian tradition about Jesus. I want the Jesus section to be about what historians say, just like the "Early Christian bishops" section is what historians say about Early Christian bishops. And the Christian-tradition section includes the New Testament section. The Cambridge Guide material either goes here or goes in the Jesus section where it's labeled as an attempt to reconcile historical Jesus and orthodox Jesus. There is no information in this section, off-hand, that I'd want to exclude. In fact, I'm dying to know why scholars think that the "Jesus-didn't-baptize-directly" line is an interpolation. The topic only comes up in a paragraph designed to nix that interpretation, not to describe it, so the reader doesn't even know why scholars would think such a thing in the first place. Leadwind ( talk) 03:10, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
User talk:ScienceApologist#Use of Twinkle and minor tag (moved from Talk:Quackwatch) may need your attention since you communicate with SA more than I. Some users noted that SA was using TW to mark major reverts as minor at Quackwatch, and the same was done at Cold Fusion. seicer | talk | contribs 14:27, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
I am trying hard to disentangle from ScienceApologist as you have suggested. However, his recent treatment of me is abhorrent. Over at Talk:Atropa belladonna, he keeps "hiding" my comments, referring to them as disruptive. Now he has posted an unjust AN/I report about me and is actively canvassing for support [24] [25]. How do you suggest I respond (if at all)? Thanks. -- Levine2112 discuss 19:48, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Vassyana, thanks for your help with Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-02-11 Parkour. I’m thinking however that it may be time to peruse formal mediation. What are your thoughts? -- S.dedalus ( talk) 20:35, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Wow, meditation must be way more dangerous than I thought! :D Jokes apart, I hope that you recover well, and that you don't get too many markings on your face from whatever hit you. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 00:55, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for all the well-wishes. It still hurts a lot, but the swelling has started to go down, bringing me great relief, especially in the face. So, I should be around sporadically, if a touch slow. Vassyana ( talk) 14:28, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
So sorry to hear about your injuries...and that photo speaks a thousand words of pain...feel better fast..! (and I certainly hope you have some good pain pills...;) Dreadstar † 05:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
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This Newsletter was automatically delivered by TinucherianBot ( talk) 08:27, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi Vassyanah. I realize that the recent discussion taking place on Talk:Torah represents a meeting of very strong differences in perspective. Perhaps we'll all learn something. I'll begin by agreeing that the article was never terribly balanced to begin with and recent have made things even less so. I also agree that sub-headers with titles like "foreign" perspectives are completely inappropriate. I have long supported articles on religious subjects which present both academic and religious perspectives. Judaism is a particularly scholarly religion. There are recognized leading scholars, academies, commentators, legal arbiters, etc. that bear a relatively straightforward analogy to the academic world. For this reason, my view has been that religious commentators with widespread and documentable regard in the religious world are reliable for presenting specifically religious perspectives (identified as such). I acknowledge this is not necessarily the case for all religions or religious subjects, because "reliability" isn't necessarily definable in religions that aren't as organized or centered around academies. (Islam, among other religions, has a similar system of recognized academies and a legal-scholarship tradition). Therefore, my perspective has been to try to support Haredi and other traditional religious editors and give them some leeway in presenting religious perspectives using high-quality religious sources, while trying to keep them from removing or discounting all other scholarship. I realize this has sometimes resulted in articles with a rather bland introduction with controversies dealt with in later sections. Every now and then we get an academic editor who wants to remove all the religious content or everything sourced to religious sources, and then I see it as my role, in maintaining balance, to try to prevent one extreme from taking complete control of the article, just as I see it as my role to try and prevent the other. Wishing you a speedy recovery. Best, -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 10:25, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi, you don't know me but I kind of followed a trail of difs to here and saw the picture and your description. You must be in horrible pain and discomfort so I just wanted to drop in wish you well and to tell you I hope the healing process is going well for you. I am assuming some kind of an accident caused this but I didn't take the time to look at your talk page first, sorry. But anyways, I just wanted to wish you well and hope the healing is going well. Take care and I hope you are feeling better with every hour that passes. -- CrohnieGal Talk 19:18, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Abrahamic religion is a term. A religious term is something inherent to the religion it is used in, and Abrahamic is not. Comparative religions studies don't use Abrahamic since there is not such religion, i.e. no group associated with it. It is therefore political, in the sense that it seeks to group populations by reclassifying them. For example Workers and Peasants Party, or Capitalists, or the Third World. It is not meant to be insulting, just a matter of fact. The book used was not cited, that is no page number was provided. I am not going to read a whole book because someone picked out a paragraph in it and forgot to mention the fact, so it goes into recommended readings until someone decides to to go fishing for the substantiation of the statement being made--Meieimatai 06:08, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
PS. Something "classical" does not originate in the 1960s ;-)(except classic rock and roll)--Meieimatai 06:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Hey there. A Wikiquette alert was recently submitted ( here), which involves a case you are currently mediating. I am not sure if WQA is really equipped to advise regarding a case that is already in mediation. In any case, the diffs provided by S.dedalus to not show egregious breaches of civility, and the case is a bit on the long side for me to want to read it to get the appropriate context.
I am inclined to just refer it back to the mediation case (saying "Take it to mediation" is not an uncommon outcome for WQAs, heh). Do you have an opinion on how this should be handled? -- Jaysweet ( talk) 15:49, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
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The Original Barnstar | |
For your astute and insightful comments and rebuffs in the current debate at Talk:Torah. DRosenbach ( Talk | Contribs) 16:24, 13 July 2008 (UTC) |
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The Painkiller Star | |
For managing to type with a hand that looks like the one at the top of the page. Ouch! Dr. e X treme 20:18, 13 July 2008 (UTC)| |
I didn't realise it was that bad :-S Ryan Postlethwaite 23:05, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Those are good edits. Kaisershatner ( talk) 21:16, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Sorry about your injury, hope you get better soon!
I'm wrirint to ask if you take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_breese and put in your vote to keep or delete, I am rather outnumbered by some non-spiritual people, could use someone who has a co-operative energy to look into the matter on a spiritual teacher article. Also please look into another article that was deleted that has been there for years at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_metaphysical_sciences but was deleted by a user as soon as I linked to it. Thanx ( SpiritBeing ( talk) 09:21, 16 July 2008 (UTC)SpiritBeing)
Vassyana - I am trying to understand what you think the bias is when stating that Abraham's story reflects the birth of Judaism essentially. I am not saying that I agree or disagree when it is worded that way, but I do not see what the bias is. The article still states that he is a key figure in Christianity and Islam. Thanks. Sposer ( talk) 12:36, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
... for the note and barnstar. Incidentally, did you notice that I referenced a case you mediated at the top of my new, improved, more bitter and cynical userpage?
On a serious note, I hope you're mending well. Those injuries look pretty rough, so I hope you're doing OK. MastCell Talk 04:10, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
hello. i quoted something that you wrote about reliable sources on the Tucker Max discussion page. I believe that i quoted you with the proper essence of the point you were trying to make and not out of context. if you believe that i quoted you out of context or if you believe your quote to be non-applicable to the situation, please let me know so that i can strike out the quote. (please note, i am not soliciting for help or comments on the article, just clarification on whether i represented your quote accurately.) thanks. Theserialcomma ( talk) 21:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
I am extremely sorry for that IP tag ... it likely permitted the vandal to keep working longer, so while I'm grateful you shut them down, I do apologize for that screw up.
Also, I'm not sure if that picture is of your hand or not, but as someone who once had a finger joint shattered, and the enjoyment of pins, a cast, and a joint permanently fused, I can sympathize a bit. I hope your recovery is speedy and pain free. LonelyBeacon ( talk) 05:13, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Hello again Vassyana,