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Rockero 00:03, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Hello
In reverting some recent vandalism to Thomas Hardy --- why does it get mauled so much? --- I think I have also reverted your recent recats. I did not mean to do this, but I can't quite see what to put back. Can you have a look and redo your changes? Apologies for wasting your time, I have just started using the pop up tool and clicked one line too far in the history.
best wishes Thruston 16:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I see you've been redoing the Atheist category. Please note the caution on the main cat page:
In addition, Wikipedia:Categories requires that the reason for any cat should be obvious to anyone going from the cat to the article.
These are peculiarly likely to abuse; as well as good-faith misuse by those who cannot distinguish between infidel, freethinker, Deist, rationalist, agnostic and atheist. Please check before adjusting these. Septentrionalis 20:15, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Did you mean for the category to be "Baptists from the United States"? American Baptist implies that they are members of the specific American Baptist denomination, as opposed top the Southern Baptist denomination. youngamerican ( talk) 21:01, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Wow - you've been busy with subcategories for Freemasons! I tried to help out a bit with some recats for you. I picked this up from my watchlist of American Civil war articles I had written. In the future, I will try to use the American Freemasons category for future Civil War bios. Scott Mingus 23:09, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I'll see if I can knock that one out tonight. There seems to be another guy working on it, too. Cheers. youngamerican ( talk) 23:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that on several articles, you've moved the year-of-birth and year-of-death/living-people categories from the beginning of the list (where, in my experience, they typically are) to the end. Are you are aware of any policy that specifies this positioning, or are you doing it for another reason? -- zenohockey 00:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi, are you sure this category is necessary? President of Mongolia already contains a list of all candidates, with much more information. -- Latebird 21:14, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
At the very least you need to attempt to address the issues before you remove a tag. Guettarda 23:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I moved your point about Ackerley's schools to the talk page for the article, where it seems more appropriate to me, although I can see an argument for making such comments in the text of the aricle. I'm getting a copy of Parker's autobiography to check out some other points, so I'll clarify this one as well. Thanks for the observation. John FitzGerald 15:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your message; I wasn't aware of this category, so have now amended my vote accordingly. Best wishes, David Kernow 23:50, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Are you actually interested in cricket and are you a member of WikiProject Cricket?
If not, then I fail to understand your involvement in the discussions about improving the cricket categories for the benefit of users, especially in the light of adverse feedback that I have received from people who are interested and involved about the lack of structure in WP. One of the subjects of complaint has been categories like cricket teams that are "out on a limb" and where the handful of articles are more usefully employed elsewhere, which is why I have confirmed that they are relevantly placed in other categories and then removed them from the unused one.
As for saying that I have not advised the cricket project membership about my intentions, I suggest you see the main cricket category, the Wikiproject and the portal discussion pages.
You may think you are doing a great service by opposing everything that I and a few others are trying to achieve for the benefit of the readers but it seems to me you are merely interfering in a subject you have no interest in or knowledge of. -- Jack 11:21, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
No one in the cricket project has objected to what I am doing with the categories and some have given support. Therefore, if I choose in good faith to recategorise articles for the benefit of the project and the readership, who the Hell are you to come along and undo it? What you are doing is VANDALISM. Mind your own business in future. -- Jack 13:56, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
You say: "Jack breached etiquette by emptying a category in advance in support of a deletion nomination he planned to make". I am telling you that he did not breach etiquette because I know what he is planning to do and how he is going about it. He did not plan to make any nomination to delete; he was looking to relocate the categories in question as sub-categories elsewhere but he found that the categories were superfluous and serving no good purpose, so he ensured that the articles were all stored in relevant and appropriate categories and thereby emptied the categories. He was then advised by Sam Vimes that he should nominate these categories for deletion by the conventional process because he had previously been given to understand that a redundant (i.e., empty) category is disposed of by a Wiki-bot housekeeping procedure. It was only then that he decided to find out how to use this Cfr process. He has not acted in breach of anything. He has acted completely in good faith because he wants to improve the project structure having had some adverse feedback from people he is trying to interest in using WP. Jack is incapable of acting in bad faith: he is the most honest man I know. I'm sorry I lost my cool earlier and I will withdraw a couple of comments I made. All the best. --
GeorgeWilliams 17:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I apologise for use of the word "vandalism" but I have had to put up with doing so much reversion on here because of real vandals that it tends to be used instinctively. Can I please ask you not to undo another person's recent work without writing to them first, unless you are certain that it has been done maliciously? I wish George would not sing my praises but it is true that I would never intentionally act in bad faith; and I am trying very hard to improve the structure of the cricket project, especially after I have contributed so much to it in the way of historical material. Best wishes. --
Jack 17:41, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I have withdrawn the above because I have been advised that you accused me of acting in bad faith re the cricket teams category proposal. I had not noticed that before, only your stupid comment about etiquette based on strict observance of that ludicrous, convoluted deletion procedure you are so dedicated to. To accuse me of acting in bad faith when it is patently clear that I am trying to improve the project for the benefit of all concerned is downright insulting. I await YOUR apology. --
Jack 04:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
You will see that I too have withdrawn my apology because you are unworthy of it. It has been pointed out to me that you accused Jack of bad faith right at the outset of all this argument despite the facts that (a) Sam had pointed out that a procedural error had occurred; (b) Jack apologised for his oversight and explained what he was doing; (c) Jack had made known same day or earlier to the cricket project that he was undertaking various reviews of the structure with a view to improving things for the readers. Your gripe is based on literal application of these horrendous deletion policy procedurals and the fact that Jack could not be bothered to waste his time getting involved in something which is, to use his word, convoluted. I have seen comments by other contributors that these procedures work against Wikipedia and that is true. They obstruct progress, such as Jack was trying to achieve, and they enable disinterested, negative individuals to try and delete perfectly good articles. For example, there is one character who frequents the deletion section who is in the habit of marking for Afd anything he personally dislikes on the grounds that it is "cruft"; but of course his own stuff is anything but "cruft" (what an inane word that is). I know Jack has had some horrendous problems of this sort and that is why he has a short fuse when he has to deal with people who are not members of the cricket project. I am also aware of even worse problems suffered by numerous other cricket contributors, especially around articles covering the 2005 season. I have re-read the deletions page re those cricket articles again and there is no doubt that the argument or row or whatever you call it was initiated by you accusing Jack at the outset of breaching both etiquette and good faith. He may have inadvertently breached a procedure but that is all. I suggest you have a look at Jack's massive contributions to the site and then tell me if he is a person who does not act in the best interests of the site? I also suggest you apologise to him for accusing him of acting in bad faith because even if he did make a mistake and do things in the wrong order, he absolutely did not act outside good faith. I also suggest that, if you are interested in cricket and you wish to help the cricket project, you enrol as a member. -- GeorgeWilliams 08:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, if you have a problem with AWB sorting categories alphabetically then you need to talk to that bot's programmer and not me. Secondly, if articles don't have categories you'd like to see them in, then that's your problem so add them yourself - I use AWB replace categories due to name changes and not to add them. Craigy ( talk) 17:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
When editing an article on Wikipedia there is a small field labeled " Edit summary" under the main edit-box. It looks like this:
The text written here will appear on the Recent changes page, in the page revision history, on the diff page, and in the watchlists of users who are watching that article. See m:Help:Edit summary for full information on this feature.
Filling in the edit summary field greatly helps your fellow contributors in understanding what you changed, so please always fill in the edit summary field, especially for big edits or when you are making subtle but important changes, like changing dates or numbers. Thank you. Woldo 08:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
When requesting that categories be speedy renamed, please edit the categories to insert {{ cfr-speedy|new category name}}, so that users of the category may know about the speedy rename proposal. Thanks! Kimchi.sg 14:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Note that I have made the merge. One of the two articles was a poor version of the other. For uniformity, I kept the Hotel article rather than the hotel one. Pascal.Tesson 04:11, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Greetings; you stated on the category change discussion that "[w]e categorise by nationality. Creating the odd exception will only create confusion and inconsistency." Since you speak in the plural voice, I left a question for you there, namely: is there an official wikipedia guideline about categorizing people by citizenship in a nation-state vs. by language? The reason I've had concerns about this article is precisely because it creates confusion and inconsistency. "Germany" has existed since 1991 at the latest, and 1871 at the earliest (with different borders). Kant, widely regarded as a German philosopher, even one of the German philosophers, was not born in "Germany" -- so how should he be categorized? I think this will remain an issue for coherent editing of this category. Meanwhile, I'm going to leave this page to others; I'll be maintaining Category:Philosophers by language, including a List of German-language philosophers instead. Please reply either here, on your talk page, or else on mine. Thanks! Universitytruth 06:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Can I ask you then what you recommend be done with Immanuel Kant and Salomon Maimon, neither of them odd exceptions? I'm not absolutely wedded to the first solution I proposed, and am open to other suggestions, if reasons are given for them. Thanks. Universitytruth 14:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I notice that you placed a Category for Deletion notice on this page on 06.07.06.
The notice includes the words "Please do not empty the category or remove this notice while the discussion is in progress". However, since no discussion of this matter is in progress, I propose to delete the notice should no such discussion be initiated within five days of the proposal. -- Picapica 19:21, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Very helpful. Any clues? (I didn't realize this was a "Where's Wally" game.) I followed the instruction "Please share your thoughts on the matter at this category's entry on the Categories for Discussion page." but the category does not have an entry there. The only mention of Welsh on that page was "Category: Welsh-Americans". My objection to the CfD notice as not pointing to a discussion therefore stands. -- Picapica 16:38, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Dear Chicheley
The discussion of the "Welsh-speaking people" category has not been there the same length of time as all the others with which it has been bracketed. It needs to be there for a week. I doubt that you understand the minority language issue as well as you think you do, otherwise you would not suggest that Welsh speakers do not consider this one of their defining characteristics -- they surely do. The way other people have voted on the blanket removal of all language categories shows that they don't understand the issue either, but they are entitled to vote. However, many of them had already done so before this category was included. Any vote dated before you added the category to the list on 6 July must be discounted unless the user in question verifies it. Deb 11:50, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Greetings; if you would visit the call for discussion at this page, I'd be grateful for your input. Thanks! Talk:List_of_German-language_philosophers Best, Universitytruth 13:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Umm, a diff would be nice :o -- Tawker 21:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Kurdish is not a nationality (or at least is in a contaversial manner). Ebdulrehman Qasimlo should be marked as an assasinated iranian politician. -- Cat out 07:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I've posted a comment in reply to yours in the CFD discussion for renaming the Power plant categories. You may wish to review it and decide if that changes your opinion of the proposed rename in regards to the United States. Caerwine Caerwhine 11:05, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Done. [1] Thanks for letting me know! Luna Santin 23:05, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I was going to put this on cfd, similar to the recent discussions on "notable hockey" and "notable baseball" fans, both of which appear headed towards deletion. Before I did, I checked the talk page and found a link to Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 June 23#Category:Famous members of Red Sox Nation. Should this one be left alone or is it reasonable to list it at cfd again? -- Brian G 11:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that you added this category. However there is already a Dance musicians by nationality category as well as a category for Dance musicians for each country. Plus there was a debate on this as well. Robert Moore 01:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I am asking you to rethink your position on this one. If any category is to be renamed Category:Motor vehicle industry it should be Category:Automotive industry and not this one. Caerwine Caerwhine 07:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
You are receiving this message because you previously voiced your opinion on a Redirects for deletion of a cross-namespace redirect that was originally deleted but then went to Deletion review and was then relisted at RFD. This is a courtesy notice so you are aware that the issue is being discussed again and is not an endorsement of any position. -- Cyde↔Weys 13:27, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Removed cfdnotice, cfd has completed. -- Kbdank71 16:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC) -- SPUI ( T - C) 19:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi Chicheley, I've been dealing with this issue for about a year and a half, so I want to give you some background on the issue and explain what I'm doing:
When Categories began, about 2 years ago, the situation was very different than it is now. Category "clutter" was not an issue because nothing was in categories. The big problem that shaped the initial discussions was the problem of categories getting "too big". "Too big" at that time was larger than a few hundred categories because there no easy way to navigate a large category. Back then, there were no table of contents for categories. To deal with large categories the standard practice was to create subcategories and depopulate the larger ones. The first categories that were "too big" were people categories, and subcategories "by nationality" were created to break them up. As this was happening, I and others became frustrated as some perfectly fine categories with 500 or so articles got broken up into 'by nationality' categories that were much less useful for browsing.
Another oft stated principal of categorization is that categories could be broken into different systems of subcategorization, so that several systems of subcategorization could co-exist. As more and more subcategorization methods proliferated, more and more categories got broken up into small pieces. Early guidelines for categorization reflected this way of doing things.
This was about the time I started getting involved in categorization policy. Two categories particularly bothered me. One was Category:Film directors which in its first incarnation contained film directors from all over the world. One day I discovered that it had been depopulated and replaced by Category:Film directors by nationality. The original category made it very easy to browse through all the articles on film directors. When it was broken up it became difficult. I found this especially irksome because I don't find nationality to be at all relevant to film directors.
Another category that bothered me was Category:Bridges in New York City. I spend alot of time working on articles about bridges. At the time, all the toll bridges in New York City had been removed from the category because they were in the sub-category:Toll bridges in New York City. It didn't make sense to me that a reasonably sized category would have half of its contents removed because there was a sub-category that was a subset of the larger category. Someone looking for the bridges in NYC shouldn't have to look in both places. The distinction of a bridge being a toll bridge may be of use to some people, but it is not an important attribute of bridges.
When I inquired about the reasons for the categorization policy, the rationale given was that categories had to be broken up when they got to big to make them useful. This inspired me to create the first version of a category table of contents which has evolved into the TOC found in virtually every large category in wikipedia. With the acceptance of CategoryTOC, I started examining what parts of the categorization policy was out of date. This led to some long discussions at Wikipedia talk:Categorization, a rewrite of the page about 7 months ago, and the addition of Wikipedia:Categorization/Categories and subcategories.
This leads us to our current situation. Here is the issue in a nutshell:
The problem is that these 3 qualities of categorization conflict unless there is categorization duplication. If there is no duplication, the larger categories are less useful for browsing and indexing. If everything is broken into small subcategories it is very difficult to browse through all of them. If they exist combined and broken up, you can browse at whatever level you desire. After the discussion about this at talk page, or the relevant discussions at Wikipedia talk:Categorization (linked from the talk page). We decided to fully populating the actors categories as an experiment to see if this way of categorizing can gain wider acceptance.
If populating higher level categories gains wide acceptance, we will need a way to make it clear which categories get populated and which do not. We have noted on the Category:Film actors page that the listings are duplicated, and there can be some sort of standard format for this. I don't really think it is all that bad, and our new way of doing it fits into the natural order of how people put people into categories. First they get entered into the more general category, and then added to the more specific subcategory The populating of categories should be an all or nothing decision. Either they contain all the articles that fit or none of them. I find the current common situation, where categories only contain the un-differentiated articles to be very unsatisfactory.
The downside, as you mention is category "clutter". Categorization is imperfect. The solution, most talked about is to have an automated way to do category intersections, so you could take Category:Film actors and Category:American people and find the intersection. If this is implemented, there would be no need for a great number of the subcategories we now have. Categories would be populated at the "level of notability", by which I mean that people are notable for being actors or film actors. In these days of globalization, people are rarely known for being American film actors. So what we are doing is fully populating the actors categories at the "level of notability" and below. This essentially is the system that people hope will happen by having a software upgrade. The upgrade (if it happens) will add intersections that do not yet exist, create them on the fly, and remove a good deal of category clutter in articles.
Until there is a software upgrade the question is which is worse, having a little "clutter" in the category listings of articles, or depopulating categories at the topic level. I'd much rather live with the clutter. As more and more category intersections are created, I'd like to hope that people will think of the intersection categories as the clutter, and not the topic level categories. -- Samuel Wantman 07:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, and I'm also not sure that you understand what I am saying, so let's keep at this. There is nothing strange about having Category:American actors fully populated. Actor categories from other countries are fully populated and other American occupation categories are fully populated. There is nothing against policy old or new about having this category populated. Except for two incomplete subsets (actor-singers and child actors), American actors are only fully duplicated in their grandchildren categories and not their two children. The two subsets are incomplete and fits one of the acceptable exceptions for duplication. As for Category:Film actors. Film is international. I have seen films with Americans, Canadians, Brits, Italians and French all in the same movie. If an occupation category is international, it seems that it should be populated with people of all nations. I have not proposed adding people above their level of notability, and this might just mean repopulating Category:Film actors. It doesn't mean that we would fully populate Actors, Entertainers, etc... Theatre, by its nature, is not very international, so perhaps this would not need repopulating. Instead, I'd probably want to add actors "by language" as this seems a natural way to collect theatre actors. Under the current system, there would be no reason not to add "Theatre actors by language" as a subcategorization scheme, so adding this category has nothing to do with the issue of duplication. My point is that there is a natural place to combine people together in fields that are international in nature.
I think you have misunderstood what I was saying about a software upgrade. Many subcategories are being added below the level of notability that are the intersection of larger categories. For example, there ethnicity subcategories like, Category:African Americans and occupation categories like Category:Film actors. So currently an African-American film actor like Laurence Fishburne is in | African-American actors | American film actors | etc... but maybe after a software upgrade he would be in | Actors | People of African descent | American people | Film people | etc... With such a system you could find and browse through categories for
By categorizing Fishburne in the four large categories he would also automatically be in all 11 of the intersection categories. Now I don't know if, when and how category intersection will ever be implemented, but my question to you is which of the 15 possible categories mentioned above should Fishburne be in now, until a new system is created? The problem as you point out is that we cannot create and fully populate all possible categories without creating quite a bit of clutter. Each additional attribute roughly doubles the number of possible combinations. My point is that Fishburne is notable as a film actor. I will forgo many of the other possible combinations if he is in at least the category for which he is known. In my view, what has happened in the past is that the important categories got chopped up and depopulated for the sake of the intersections. I just want to add back some of these significant categories.
I am certainly NOT advocating removal of ANY subcategories. Absolutely not. I am just saying that duplication should be considered more acceptable since there has been a proliferation of subcategories that are the intersection of larger categories. Let me give you another example. Recently, someone took Category:Bridges in England and depopulated it by moving all the bridges to dozens of smaller categories, one for each county in England. I plan on repopulating the larger category because I find the smaller categories are much less useful, and unlikely to create serendipity for users (especially those who are not British).
It may seem useful for those of us who categorize to have these large categories function as a holding tank for the articles that haven't yet been categorized more precisely. But I think these categories, randomly populated with a small number of obscure people, look very bad to the general user of Wikipedia. If people have a natural inclination to put someone in the category "Film Actor" I think that sends the message that this is what makes the person notable. A small number of people appearing in a category may be be the result of users not understanding how to categorize. A large number seems to be evidence that WE have made a mistake and the category needs to be repopulated. I know this means some extra work, but I think it is worth it.
Yes we have a messy, inaccurate, incomplete system that needs an upgrade. It also needs a consensus as to how it works. I think you are misunderstanding what I am trying to do, and I hope you will reread what I have written above. When I mention a dual system, what I mean is that some people think it is x and some think it is y. I'm trying to push this issue so that there can be some agreement about how it works. What I am proposing is that whenever we categorize someone we should say this person is notable for being _______. If they are notable for being a film actor they should be in the category for film actors. If they are notable for being a film director they should be in the category for film directors. Same for English-language authors. If their profession is not international, they may be notable for being an American politician, a German lawyer, etc... Just because someone is in a small subcategories should not be a reason for taking them out of the larger notability categories. They can be duplicated in the smaller categories. People who want to browse through the small categories are able to. I don't understand why we don't want to have a single category that functions as a central index of film actors, yet allow dozens of Actor by series categories adding to category clutter. -- Samuel Wantman 08:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Please explain how it can be an attempted fait accompli for a consensus decision to be made among project members to present a set of categories for proposed merger. The nomination is made via the site guidelines and presents an opportunity for all site users to discuss the matter before a decision is reached. How is that an attempted fait accompli? -- BlackJack | talk page 20:06, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
This is to advise you that I have made a formal complaint about you to an administrator at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:SamuelWantman#User:Chicheley
I have chosen Samuel due to his recent involvement with you both here on your own talk page and in the CfD disussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_July_30#Merge_all_Philatelist_Categories
To give Samuel every opportunity to investigate my complaint without prejudice, I suggest that no further discussions take place between us on either of our own talk pages or on the CfD pages. -- BlackJack | talk page 09:10, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, calm down you two. Perhaps some private, off list, discussion might result in a meeting of minds. Lightoftheworld 16:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I have just posted a lengthy reply to the CFD for MPs by Parliament, and wondered if you might like to reconsider your nomination? I have just put a lot of work into creating and populating these categories, after extensive discussion, and am sorry to see them risking deletion so soon. -- BrownHairedGirl 17:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry if I stepped on your pet peeve, but I stand by my actions. It is your disregard for established consensus related to maintenance categories that must be kept on check. As I said before, there is no better alternative for them at the moment so the will stay until a better one is found, not before. And I believe I am the best judge of what actions I shall keep performing on wiki. Thanks for your concern. I will say no more of the matter. -- Run e Welsh | ταλκ 09:38, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Calm down you two. Perhaps some private, off list, discussion might result in a meeting of minds?. Robert I 22:49, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
This category has been restored by deletion review, and as the result of that restoration a number of other actions were taken. I know you are deeply concerned about the fate of these self-referential categories, and so I would invite you to comment on this issue in the thread at ANI. Dragons flight 18:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that you removed the tag from the category above. I am curious as to the specific reasons this was done. One, I note that the banner itself said that it was never to be removed, and that you may have acted inappropriately by removing it. I say "may have", because I don't know who specifically has authority to remove it. Also, I would point out that my proposal was, as stated, an extreme proposal, and not necessarily to be taken too literally. Clearly, I don't imagine that all the subcategories, if they were ever created, would necessarily be "stand-alone" subcategories. I personally tend to think that something along the lines of what has been done with Category:People from California would probably be enacted. However, I would point out that it seems to me to be very likely that the greatest number of new pages created in wikipedia are very likely to be pages about people: this year's new crop of politicians, professional athletes, TV series regulars, musicians, and so on. If this is true, then maybe, say, one-third of all new pages relating to the United States will probably be biographical. If that happens, then we may well find ourselves facing a situation where the proliferation of categories may be the only way to address the even greater proliferation of biography pages. Badbilltucker 16:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Calm down chaps. But perhaps you should try to engage more with other contributors, Olborne?. Sussexman 20:17, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I just noticed that at the start of this past summer you created at least 4 new categories for Quakers, and I thought I'd quickly ask why and if there are any others I those of us working on the Quaker Wikiproject should be aware of. We somehow missed their creation, and I only added them to our list of categories this evening. What I'm concerned about is that some of them are likely to stay very small, and I'm not clear there was a need to break the Quaker category apart. Could you please explain what your thought process was here? Thanks -- Ahc 03:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
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Rockero 00:03, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Hello
In reverting some recent vandalism to Thomas Hardy --- why does it get mauled so much? --- I think I have also reverted your recent recats. I did not mean to do this, but I can't quite see what to put back. Can you have a look and redo your changes? Apologies for wasting your time, I have just started using the pop up tool and clicked one line too far in the history.
best wishes Thruston 16:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I see you've been redoing the Atheist category. Please note the caution on the main cat page:
In addition, Wikipedia:Categories requires that the reason for any cat should be obvious to anyone going from the cat to the article.
These are peculiarly likely to abuse; as well as good-faith misuse by those who cannot distinguish between infidel, freethinker, Deist, rationalist, agnostic and atheist. Please check before adjusting these. Septentrionalis 20:15, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Did you mean for the category to be "Baptists from the United States"? American Baptist implies that they are members of the specific American Baptist denomination, as opposed top the Southern Baptist denomination. youngamerican ( talk) 21:01, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Wow - you've been busy with subcategories for Freemasons! I tried to help out a bit with some recats for you. I picked this up from my watchlist of American Civil war articles I had written. In the future, I will try to use the American Freemasons category for future Civil War bios. Scott Mingus 23:09, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I'll see if I can knock that one out tonight. There seems to be another guy working on it, too. Cheers. youngamerican ( talk) 23:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that on several articles, you've moved the year-of-birth and year-of-death/living-people categories from the beginning of the list (where, in my experience, they typically are) to the end. Are you are aware of any policy that specifies this positioning, or are you doing it for another reason? -- zenohockey 00:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi, are you sure this category is necessary? President of Mongolia already contains a list of all candidates, with much more information. -- Latebird 21:14, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
At the very least you need to attempt to address the issues before you remove a tag. Guettarda 23:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I moved your point about Ackerley's schools to the talk page for the article, where it seems more appropriate to me, although I can see an argument for making such comments in the text of the aricle. I'm getting a copy of Parker's autobiography to check out some other points, so I'll clarify this one as well. Thanks for the observation. John FitzGerald 15:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your message; I wasn't aware of this category, so have now amended my vote accordingly. Best wishes, David Kernow 23:50, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Are you actually interested in cricket and are you a member of WikiProject Cricket?
If not, then I fail to understand your involvement in the discussions about improving the cricket categories for the benefit of users, especially in the light of adverse feedback that I have received from people who are interested and involved about the lack of structure in WP. One of the subjects of complaint has been categories like cricket teams that are "out on a limb" and where the handful of articles are more usefully employed elsewhere, which is why I have confirmed that they are relevantly placed in other categories and then removed them from the unused one.
As for saying that I have not advised the cricket project membership about my intentions, I suggest you see the main cricket category, the Wikiproject and the portal discussion pages.
You may think you are doing a great service by opposing everything that I and a few others are trying to achieve for the benefit of the readers but it seems to me you are merely interfering in a subject you have no interest in or knowledge of. -- Jack 11:21, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
No one in the cricket project has objected to what I am doing with the categories and some have given support. Therefore, if I choose in good faith to recategorise articles for the benefit of the project and the readership, who the Hell are you to come along and undo it? What you are doing is VANDALISM. Mind your own business in future. -- Jack 13:56, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
You say: "Jack breached etiquette by emptying a category in advance in support of a deletion nomination he planned to make". I am telling you that he did not breach etiquette because I know what he is planning to do and how he is going about it. He did not plan to make any nomination to delete; he was looking to relocate the categories in question as sub-categories elsewhere but he found that the categories were superfluous and serving no good purpose, so he ensured that the articles were all stored in relevant and appropriate categories and thereby emptied the categories. He was then advised by Sam Vimes that he should nominate these categories for deletion by the conventional process because he had previously been given to understand that a redundant (i.e., empty) category is disposed of by a Wiki-bot housekeeping procedure. It was only then that he decided to find out how to use this Cfr process. He has not acted in breach of anything. He has acted completely in good faith because he wants to improve the project structure having had some adverse feedback from people he is trying to interest in using WP. Jack is incapable of acting in bad faith: he is the most honest man I know. I'm sorry I lost my cool earlier and I will withdraw a couple of comments I made. All the best. --
GeorgeWilliams 17:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I apologise for use of the word "vandalism" but I have had to put up with doing so much reversion on here because of real vandals that it tends to be used instinctively. Can I please ask you not to undo another person's recent work without writing to them first, unless you are certain that it has been done maliciously? I wish George would not sing my praises but it is true that I would never intentionally act in bad faith; and I am trying very hard to improve the structure of the cricket project, especially after I have contributed so much to it in the way of historical material. Best wishes. --
Jack 17:41, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I have withdrawn the above because I have been advised that you accused me of acting in bad faith re the cricket teams category proposal. I had not noticed that before, only your stupid comment about etiquette based on strict observance of that ludicrous, convoluted deletion procedure you are so dedicated to. To accuse me of acting in bad faith when it is patently clear that I am trying to improve the project for the benefit of all concerned is downright insulting. I await YOUR apology. --
Jack 04:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
You will see that I too have withdrawn my apology because you are unworthy of it. It has been pointed out to me that you accused Jack of bad faith right at the outset of all this argument despite the facts that (a) Sam had pointed out that a procedural error had occurred; (b) Jack apologised for his oversight and explained what he was doing; (c) Jack had made known same day or earlier to the cricket project that he was undertaking various reviews of the structure with a view to improving things for the readers. Your gripe is based on literal application of these horrendous deletion policy procedurals and the fact that Jack could not be bothered to waste his time getting involved in something which is, to use his word, convoluted. I have seen comments by other contributors that these procedures work against Wikipedia and that is true. They obstruct progress, such as Jack was trying to achieve, and they enable disinterested, negative individuals to try and delete perfectly good articles. For example, there is one character who frequents the deletion section who is in the habit of marking for Afd anything he personally dislikes on the grounds that it is "cruft"; but of course his own stuff is anything but "cruft" (what an inane word that is). I know Jack has had some horrendous problems of this sort and that is why he has a short fuse when he has to deal with people who are not members of the cricket project. I am also aware of even worse problems suffered by numerous other cricket contributors, especially around articles covering the 2005 season. I have re-read the deletions page re those cricket articles again and there is no doubt that the argument or row or whatever you call it was initiated by you accusing Jack at the outset of breaching both etiquette and good faith. He may have inadvertently breached a procedure but that is all. I suggest you have a look at Jack's massive contributions to the site and then tell me if he is a person who does not act in the best interests of the site? I also suggest you apologise to him for accusing him of acting in bad faith because even if he did make a mistake and do things in the wrong order, he absolutely did not act outside good faith. I also suggest that, if you are interested in cricket and you wish to help the cricket project, you enrol as a member. -- GeorgeWilliams 08:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, if you have a problem with AWB sorting categories alphabetically then you need to talk to that bot's programmer and not me. Secondly, if articles don't have categories you'd like to see them in, then that's your problem so add them yourself - I use AWB replace categories due to name changes and not to add them. Craigy ( talk) 17:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
When editing an article on Wikipedia there is a small field labeled " Edit summary" under the main edit-box. It looks like this:
The text written here will appear on the Recent changes page, in the page revision history, on the diff page, and in the watchlists of users who are watching that article. See m:Help:Edit summary for full information on this feature.
Filling in the edit summary field greatly helps your fellow contributors in understanding what you changed, so please always fill in the edit summary field, especially for big edits or when you are making subtle but important changes, like changing dates or numbers. Thank you. Woldo 08:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
When requesting that categories be speedy renamed, please edit the categories to insert {{ cfr-speedy|new category name}}, so that users of the category may know about the speedy rename proposal. Thanks! Kimchi.sg 14:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Note that I have made the merge. One of the two articles was a poor version of the other. For uniformity, I kept the Hotel article rather than the hotel one. Pascal.Tesson 04:11, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Greetings; you stated on the category change discussion that "[w]e categorise by nationality. Creating the odd exception will only create confusion and inconsistency." Since you speak in the plural voice, I left a question for you there, namely: is there an official wikipedia guideline about categorizing people by citizenship in a nation-state vs. by language? The reason I've had concerns about this article is precisely because it creates confusion and inconsistency. "Germany" has existed since 1991 at the latest, and 1871 at the earliest (with different borders). Kant, widely regarded as a German philosopher, even one of the German philosophers, was not born in "Germany" -- so how should he be categorized? I think this will remain an issue for coherent editing of this category. Meanwhile, I'm going to leave this page to others; I'll be maintaining Category:Philosophers by language, including a List of German-language philosophers instead. Please reply either here, on your talk page, or else on mine. Thanks! Universitytruth 06:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Can I ask you then what you recommend be done with Immanuel Kant and Salomon Maimon, neither of them odd exceptions? I'm not absolutely wedded to the first solution I proposed, and am open to other suggestions, if reasons are given for them. Thanks. Universitytruth 14:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I notice that you placed a Category for Deletion notice on this page on 06.07.06.
The notice includes the words "Please do not empty the category or remove this notice while the discussion is in progress". However, since no discussion of this matter is in progress, I propose to delete the notice should no such discussion be initiated within five days of the proposal. -- Picapica 19:21, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Very helpful. Any clues? (I didn't realize this was a "Where's Wally" game.) I followed the instruction "Please share your thoughts on the matter at this category's entry on the Categories for Discussion page." but the category does not have an entry there. The only mention of Welsh on that page was "Category: Welsh-Americans". My objection to the CfD notice as not pointing to a discussion therefore stands. -- Picapica 16:38, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Dear Chicheley
The discussion of the "Welsh-speaking people" category has not been there the same length of time as all the others with which it has been bracketed. It needs to be there for a week. I doubt that you understand the minority language issue as well as you think you do, otherwise you would not suggest that Welsh speakers do not consider this one of their defining characteristics -- they surely do. The way other people have voted on the blanket removal of all language categories shows that they don't understand the issue either, but they are entitled to vote. However, many of them had already done so before this category was included. Any vote dated before you added the category to the list on 6 July must be discounted unless the user in question verifies it. Deb 11:50, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Greetings; if you would visit the call for discussion at this page, I'd be grateful for your input. Thanks! Talk:List_of_German-language_philosophers Best, Universitytruth 13:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Umm, a diff would be nice :o -- Tawker 21:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Kurdish is not a nationality (or at least is in a contaversial manner). Ebdulrehman Qasimlo should be marked as an assasinated iranian politician. -- Cat out 07:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I've posted a comment in reply to yours in the CFD discussion for renaming the Power plant categories. You may wish to review it and decide if that changes your opinion of the proposed rename in regards to the United States. Caerwine Caerwhine 11:05, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Done. [1] Thanks for letting me know! Luna Santin 23:05, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I was going to put this on cfd, similar to the recent discussions on "notable hockey" and "notable baseball" fans, both of which appear headed towards deletion. Before I did, I checked the talk page and found a link to Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 June 23#Category:Famous members of Red Sox Nation. Should this one be left alone or is it reasonable to list it at cfd again? -- Brian G 11:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that you added this category. However there is already a Dance musicians by nationality category as well as a category for Dance musicians for each country. Plus there was a debate on this as well. Robert Moore 01:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I am asking you to rethink your position on this one. If any category is to be renamed Category:Motor vehicle industry it should be Category:Automotive industry and not this one. Caerwine Caerwhine 07:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
You are receiving this message because you previously voiced your opinion on a Redirects for deletion of a cross-namespace redirect that was originally deleted but then went to Deletion review and was then relisted at RFD. This is a courtesy notice so you are aware that the issue is being discussed again and is not an endorsement of any position. -- Cyde↔Weys 13:27, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Removed cfdnotice, cfd has completed. -- Kbdank71 16:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC) -- SPUI ( T - C) 19:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi Chicheley, I've been dealing with this issue for about a year and a half, so I want to give you some background on the issue and explain what I'm doing:
When Categories began, about 2 years ago, the situation was very different than it is now. Category "clutter" was not an issue because nothing was in categories. The big problem that shaped the initial discussions was the problem of categories getting "too big". "Too big" at that time was larger than a few hundred categories because there no easy way to navigate a large category. Back then, there were no table of contents for categories. To deal with large categories the standard practice was to create subcategories and depopulate the larger ones. The first categories that were "too big" were people categories, and subcategories "by nationality" were created to break them up. As this was happening, I and others became frustrated as some perfectly fine categories with 500 or so articles got broken up into 'by nationality' categories that were much less useful for browsing.
Another oft stated principal of categorization is that categories could be broken into different systems of subcategorization, so that several systems of subcategorization could co-exist. As more and more subcategorization methods proliferated, more and more categories got broken up into small pieces. Early guidelines for categorization reflected this way of doing things.
This was about the time I started getting involved in categorization policy. Two categories particularly bothered me. One was Category:Film directors which in its first incarnation contained film directors from all over the world. One day I discovered that it had been depopulated and replaced by Category:Film directors by nationality. The original category made it very easy to browse through all the articles on film directors. When it was broken up it became difficult. I found this especially irksome because I don't find nationality to be at all relevant to film directors.
Another category that bothered me was Category:Bridges in New York City. I spend alot of time working on articles about bridges. At the time, all the toll bridges in New York City had been removed from the category because they were in the sub-category:Toll bridges in New York City. It didn't make sense to me that a reasonably sized category would have half of its contents removed because there was a sub-category that was a subset of the larger category. Someone looking for the bridges in NYC shouldn't have to look in both places. The distinction of a bridge being a toll bridge may be of use to some people, but it is not an important attribute of bridges.
When I inquired about the reasons for the categorization policy, the rationale given was that categories had to be broken up when they got to big to make them useful. This inspired me to create the first version of a category table of contents which has evolved into the TOC found in virtually every large category in wikipedia. With the acceptance of CategoryTOC, I started examining what parts of the categorization policy was out of date. This led to some long discussions at Wikipedia talk:Categorization, a rewrite of the page about 7 months ago, and the addition of Wikipedia:Categorization/Categories and subcategories.
This leads us to our current situation. Here is the issue in a nutshell:
The problem is that these 3 qualities of categorization conflict unless there is categorization duplication. If there is no duplication, the larger categories are less useful for browsing and indexing. If everything is broken into small subcategories it is very difficult to browse through all of them. If they exist combined and broken up, you can browse at whatever level you desire. After the discussion about this at talk page, or the relevant discussions at Wikipedia talk:Categorization (linked from the talk page). We decided to fully populating the actors categories as an experiment to see if this way of categorizing can gain wider acceptance.
If populating higher level categories gains wide acceptance, we will need a way to make it clear which categories get populated and which do not. We have noted on the Category:Film actors page that the listings are duplicated, and there can be some sort of standard format for this. I don't really think it is all that bad, and our new way of doing it fits into the natural order of how people put people into categories. First they get entered into the more general category, and then added to the more specific subcategory The populating of categories should be an all or nothing decision. Either they contain all the articles that fit or none of them. I find the current common situation, where categories only contain the un-differentiated articles to be very unsatisfactory.
The downside, as you mention is category "clutter". Categorization is imperfect. The solution, most talked about is to have an automated way to do category intersections, so you could take Category:Film actors and Category:American people and find the intersection. If this is implemented, there would be no need for a great number of the subcategories we now have. Categories would be populated at the "level of notability", by which I mean that people are notable for being actors or film actors. In these days of globalization, people are rarely known for being American film actors. So what we are doing is fully populating the actors categories at the "level of notability" and below. This essentially is the system that people hope will happen by having a software upgrade. The upgrade (if it happens) will add intersections that do not yet exist, create them on the fly, and remove a good deal of category clutter in articles.
Until there is a software upgrade the question is which is worse, having a little "clutter" in the category listings of articles, or depopulating categories at the topic level. I'd much rather live with the clutter. As more and more category intersections are created, I'd like to hope that people will think of the intersection categories as the clutter, and not the topic level categories. -- Samuel Wantman 07:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, and I'm also not sure that you understand what I am saying, so let's keep at this. There is nothing strange about having Category:American actors fully populated. Actor categories from other countries are fully populated and other American occupation categories are fully populated. There is nothing against policy old or new about having this category populated. Except for two incomplete subsets (actor-singers and child actors), American actors are only fully duplicated in their grandchildren categories and not their two children. The two subsets are incomplete and fits one of the acceptable exceptions for duplication. As for Category:Film actors. Film is international. I have seen films with Americans, Canadians, Brits, Italians and French all in the same movie. If an occupation category is international, it seems that it should be populated with people of all nations. I have not proposed adding people above their level of notability, and this might just mean repopulating Category:Film actors. It doesn't mean that we would fully populate Actors, Entertainers, etc... Theatre, by its nature, is not very international, so perhaps this would not need repopulating. Instead, I'd probably want to add actors "by language" as this seems a natural way to collect theatre actors. Under the current system, there would be no reason not to add "Theatre actors by language" as a subcategorization scheme, so adding this category has nothing to do with the issue of duplication. My point is that there is a natural place to combine people together in fields that are international in nature.
I think you have misunderstood what I was saying about a software upgrade. Many subcategories are being added below the level of notability that are the intersection of larger categories. For example, there ethnicity subcategories like, Category:African Americans and occupation categories like Category:Film actors. So currently an African-American film actor like Laurence Fishburne is in | African-American actors | American film actors | etc... but maybe after a software upgrade he would be in | Actors | People of African descent | American people | Film people | etc... With such a system you could find and browse through categories for
By categorizing Fishburne in the four large categories he would also automatically be in all 11 of the intersection categories. Now I don't know if, when and how category intersection will ever be implemented, but my question to you is which of the 15 possible categories mentioned above should Fishburne be in now, until a new system is created? The problem as you point out is that we cannot create and fully populate all possible categories without creating quite a bit of clutter. Each additional attribute roughly doubles the number of possible combinations. My point is that Fishburne is notable as a film actor. I will forgo many of the other possible combinations if he is in at least the category for which he is known. In my view, what has happened in the past is that the important categories got chopped up and depopulated for the sake of the intersections. I just want to add back some of these significant categories.
I am certainly NOT advocating removal of ANY subcategories. Absolutely not. I am just saying that duplication should be considered more acceptable since there has been a proliferation of subcategories that are the intersection of larger categories. Let me give you another example. Recently, someone took Category:Bridges in England and depopulated it by moving all the bridges to dozens of smaller categories, one for each county in England. I plan on repopulating the larger category because I find the smaller categories are much less useful, and unlikely to create serendipity for users (especially those who are not British).
It may seem useful for those of us who categorize to have these large categories function as a holding tank for the articles that haven't yet been categorized more precisely. But I think these categories, randomly populated with a small number of obscure people, look very bad to the general user of Wikipedia. If people have a natural inclination to put someone in the category "Film Actor" I think that sends the message that this is what makes the person notable. A small number of people appearing in a category may be be the result of users not understanding how to categorize. A large number seems to be evidence that WE have made a mistake and the category needs to be repopulated. I know this means some extra work, but I think it is worth it.
Yes we have a messy, inaccurate, incomplete system that needs an upgrade. It also needs a consensus as to how it works. I think you are misunderstanding what I am trying to do, and I hope you will reread what I have written above. When I mention a dual system, what I mean is that some people think it is x and some think it is y. I'm trying to push this issue so that there can be some agreement about how it works. What I am proposing is that whenever we categorize someone we should say this person is notable for being _______. If they are notable for being a film actor they should be in the category for film actors. If they are notable for being a film director they should be in the category for film directors. Same for English-language authors. If their profession is not international, they may be notable for being an American politician, a German lawyer, etc... Just because someone is in a small subcategories should not be a reason for taking them out of the larger notability categories. They can be duplicated in the smaller categories. People who want to browse through the small categories are able to. I don't understand why we don't want to have a single category that functions as a central index of film actors, yet allow dozens of Actor by series categories adding to category clutter. -- Samuel Wantman 08:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Please explain how it can be an attempted fait accompli for a consensus decision to be made among project members to present a set of categories for proposed merger. The nomination is made via the site guidelines and presents an opportunity for all site users to discuss the matter before a decision is reached. How is that an attempted fait accompli? -- BlackJack | talk page 20:06, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
This is to advise you that I have made a formal complaint about you to an administrator at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:SamuelWantman#User:Chicheley
I have chosen Samuel due to his recent involvement with you both here on your own talk page and in the CfD disussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_July_30#Merge_all_Philatelist_Categories
To give Samuel every opportunity to investigate my complaint without prejudice, I suggest that no further discussions take place between us on either of our own talk pages or on the CfD pages. -- BlackJack | talk page 09:10, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, calm down you two. Perhaps some private, off list, discussion might result in a meeting of minds. Lightoftheworld 16:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I have just posted a lengthy reply to the CFD for MPs by Parliament, and wondered if you might like to reconsider your nomination? I have just put a lot of work into creating and populating these categories, after extensive discussion, and am sorry to see them risking deletion so soon. -- BrownHairedGirl 17:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry if I stepped on your pet peeve, but I stand by my actions. It is your disregard for established consensus related to maintenance categories that must be kept on check. As I said before, there is no better alternative for them at the moment so the will stay until a better one is found, not before. And I believe I am the best judge of what actions I shall keep performing on wiki. Thanks for your concern. I will say no more of the matter. -- Run e Welsh | ταλκ 09:38, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Calm down you two. Perhaps some private, off list, discussion might result in a meeting of minds?. Robert I 22:49, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
This category has been restored by deletion review, and as the result of that restoration a number of other actions were taken. I know you are deeply concerned about the fate of these self-referential categories, and so I would invite you to comment on this issue in the thread at ANI. Dragons flight 18:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that you removed the tag from the category above. I am curious as to the specific reasons this was done. One, I note that the banner itself said that it was never to be removed, and that you may have acted inappropriately by removing it. I say "may have", because I don't know who specifically has authority to remove it. Also, I would point out that my proposal was, as stated, an extreme proposal, and not necessarily to be taken too literally. Clearly, I don't imagine that all the subcategories, if they were ever created, would necessarily be "stand-alone" subcategories. I personally tend to think that something along the lines of what has been done with Category:People from California would probably be enacted. However, I would point out that it seems to me to be very likely that the greatest number of new pages created in wikipedia are very likely to be pages about people: this year's new crop of politicians, professional athletes, TV series regulars, musicians, and so on. If this is true, then maybe, say, one-third of all new pages relating to the United States will probably be biographical. If that happens, then we may well find ourselves facing a situation where the proliferation of categories may be the only way to address the even greater proliferation of biography pages. Badbilltucker 16:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Calm down chaps. But perhaps you should try to engage more with other contributors, Olborne?. Sussexman 20:17, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I just noticed that at the start of this past summer you created at least 4 new categories for Quakers, and I thought I'd quickly ask why and if there are any others I those of us working on the Quaker Wikiproject should be aware of. We somehow missed their creation, and I only added them to our list of categories this evening. What I'm concerned about is that some of them are likely to stay very small, and I'm not clear there was a need to break the Quaker category apart. Could you please explain what your thought process was here? Thanks -- Ahc 03:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)