This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Hi. I've nominated Portrait of Pére Tanguy, an article you worked on, for consideration to appear on the Main Page as part of Wikipedia:Did you know. You can see the hook for the article here, where you can improve it if you see fit. Chimino ( talk) 00:43, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Hello! Your submission of
Portrait of Pére Tanguy at the
Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath
your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know!
Hello again. What I meant was that the article, which now reads very well, might have a couple of format issues. Having a look over WP:MOS might help. What caught my eye in the Tanguy section is the lead section, and how it relates to the body of text. Ideally, the lead section does not contain citations, because it summarizes facts that are supposed to be cited, and discussed more in-depth, in the article itself. This also means that the lead should preferable not contain info that is not discussed and cited in the article. See WP:LEAD for what is intended. I wanted to correct that myself, but the format you used is quite laborious, but you may consider having a second look - when you're okay with that, of course, and provided you agree. The citation format, I have to say, looks a bit counter-intuitive to me (it's needlessly complicated), but you're of course entitled to dismiss that. Btw, the article as we stand has a "citation needed" tag that you may wish to address at some point. Dahn ( talk) 15:12, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
You might want to add something (anything) to your userpage. This will get the red out of your name in edit histories. It's your choice, but I recommend it. Happy editing. 7&6=thirteen ( ☎) 23:32, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
May I weigh in? It's getting huge, and will only expand as more articles are written on his paintings. I wonder if the list of paintings on the template shouldn't be for major works (i.e. Tanguy) only?-- Chimino ( talk) 18:27, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
van Gogh did 15 paintings about Olive trees, the topic for the next painting from NGA that I wanted to work on. I'm also wondering if it might make sense to write one article about Olive Tree/Orchard, have a gallery of the paintings, and then right about the subject as a whole. What are your thoughts Modernist or Chimino (or anyone else) on that? Thanks so much! It's great to be able to bounce ideas by you!! -- CaroleHenson ( talk) 20:22, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
On 28 March 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Portrait of Pére Tanguy, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the final Portrait of Père Tanguy (pictured) was purchased by the sculptor Auguste Rodin and now resides in his museum in Paris? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page ( here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page. |
Cheers, Big Dom 16:02, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
First of all, thanks to all the editors that help me out along the way!!! It's greatly appreciated!
For anyone that may see this. I'm wondering why images sometimes appear as a white box with an "x" in User:CaroleHenson/Olive Trees. One thought might be there's too many images - but it's far less than the number of images in the List of works by Vincent van Gogh. Any ideas? Thanks!!!-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 15:04, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Hi CArole, hope you're doing ok - it looks like it from your recent contributions. I'm just wondering whether you could drop by on User_talk:Panderoona. This is a new user who is becoming a bit daunted by it all, rather as you were a couple of months back. Since you are now doing great I thought perhaps you might care to offer your thoughts to the newcomer and spread the load a bit. If it all comes from me then I think we might lose the person from the project, which would be a shame. Thanks, and no obligation! - Sitush ( talk) 15:32, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
I am a Wikipedian, who is studying the phenomenon on Wikipedia. I need your help to conduct my research on about understanding "Motivation of Wikipedia contributors." I would like to invite you to a short survey. Please give me your valuable time, which estimates only 5 minutes’’’. cooldenny ( talk) 18:05, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
Hi Carole here's a few more kids:
Good job... Modernist ( talk) 18:51, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
Hi Carole I'm wondering about this line - Vincent's paintings were sold in bundles at an incredibly low rate to pay off creditors that's in the lede at Agostina Segatori Sitting in the Café du Tambourin. The mythology is that Vincent only sold one painting in his sweet short life to Anna Boch - The Red Vineyard. If bundles of his paintings were sold (even if he didn't profit from the sales) - which paintings? - who bought them? - how many? - what happened to them? - did the buyers profit? - is the source accurate? so many unanswered questions. What do you think?.. Modernist ( talk) 05:07, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Very strange! I still don't have it. I tried sending myself a test email to see if it's a server issue, but it popped right in and I checked spam and the email didn't go there. To be safe, I'll go add your email address to my address book, which couldn't hurt. Sure try again.-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 04:36, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
The Barnstar of High Culture | ||
Excellent work Carole, on all articles related to - Vincent van Gogh. Modernist ( talk) 16:20, 17 April 2011 (UTC) |
Hi, good additions there. If you manage to expand 5 fold in the next 5 days (not hard given that there was little text there before), we can get it on WP:DYK and I will suggest it should go on there on 29 July. Cheers. History2007 ( talk) 19:27, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
I think as of now this looks better than many Wikipedia articles, so I am not sure what else you would want to add. You just need to decide on a DYK fact with a good reference today and then we can set it up for July 29. That way, eventually July 29 will become a national holiday in the Benelux - they just need an excuse if one gives them the idea. History2007 ( talk) 15:23, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
Hi Carole, On the Portrait of Dr. Gachet page, there is an uncited claim of the second version being a forgery. I was planning on expanding this article in the near future, but in the meantime was wondering if you've ever come across this claim in your research?-- Chimino ( talk) 07:25, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
The Barnstar of Fine Arts | ||
For a bang-up job expanding Langlois Bridge at Arles, an article on a key painting by a major artist. — Daniel Case ( talk) 16:18, 1 May 2011 (UTC) |
Thanks, Daniel!! And a continued thanks to Modernist who has greatly supported me, edited the articles and ensure that I've aligned with the WP:MOS and other guidelines!-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 16:35, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
I too was about to award you this barnstar but someone else got there first. Well done. Excellent work - and you've done so much is such a short time. Trying to emulate Van Gogh, no doubt! - Ipigott ( talk) 08:53, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
On 7 May 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Langlois Bridge at Arles, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Vincent van Gogh called his 1888 painting Langlois Bridge at Arles (pictured) "something funny ... I will not create every day"? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page ( here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page. |
The DYK project ( nominate) 12:02, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi Carole, I haven't seen Gate in the Paris Ramp 1886 however here are three that haven't been included in the List here, that I found along the way, although there are others out there... Modernist ( talk) 01:45, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi Carole. As you seem to becoming something of a specialist in describing Van Gogh's paintings, I though I would bring to your attention the conventions for capitalizing Dutch names with "van". I had trouble sorting out things myself so I certainly understand the usage you have chosen. The article Van (Dutch) provides a pretty good overview and states in particular: "The "v" is written in lower case, except if the first name or initials are omitted, in which case it is capitalised, as in "de schilder Van Gogh" ("the painter Van Gogh") or "de heer Van Teylingen" ("Mister Van Teylingen")." These conventions also seem to be used pretty widely in English, as in the main article on Vincent van Gogh. You will see I made what I considered to be the necessary edits to your wonderful article on Langlois Bridge at Arles but would like to give you the chance to respond before making similar changes to the other articles you have written on Van Gogh. And by the way, I was wondering if you would be interested in aiming for GA (good article) status for the Langlois Bridge at Arles. I think you are almost there. - Ipigott ( talk) 09:42, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I suggest the best way for you to go about the good article process is to nominate it yourself using the procedure shown at Wikipedia:Good article nominations. Once it comes up, I would be happy to help with the review. You can also immediately see the criteria you need to follow and you may like to make some adjustments first. - Ipigott ( talk) 16:15, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I see you already have Olive Trees (series) in the stack. I'll have a good look at that one now. - Ipigott ( talk) 07:53, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for making that article; the original redirect from the List went to the Cairo painting, and I was told to make an article for it if I wanted it to link properly.-- Chimino ( talk) 16:11, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Sorry about adding the image of back of houses without seeing whether or not you'd seen it; I'll run the next ones by you if I find some more orphaned images... Modernist ( talk) 00:47, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
The article is certainly a good candidate for GA. I think you have covered all the essentials. It might be useful to be more consistent in maintaing a single format throughout (use of galleries, etc.). Maybe it would also be an idea to explain the general context in a bit more detail and also add a word about how significant the olive tree paintings are to VG's work as a whole and how they have been received (if you think this is important). The aspect I found most difficult to follow was the section on the spiritual significance. You provide a very general introduction to VG's interest in spirituality going right back to 1876. Perhaps it would be more useful to concentrate on his more immediate concerns around 1889 and the effects, if any, of his illness on his spirituality. GA articles on art also usually include a bibliography or further reading section. I see you have several pertinent references to literature - so some of these could be used in the bibliography. If you think I am being too demanding (as I probably am), please let me know. This source may be of some assistance.
One of the articles about paintings to have GA status is Bonaparte Crossing the Alps. I'm not suggesting you should cover all the sections and the amount of detail presented there but it might provide a few ideas. Let me know if you need further help. Once you are satisfied with the article, I'll start the review - if no one else gets there first! - Ipigott ( talk) 10:23, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
You've certainly done an excellent job on all this and seem to have invested a considerable amount of time. I also see you now have a total of 18 olive tree works. Some of your additions and references provide much more insight into VG's motivations, especially in regard to spirituality. The overall display and the gallery presentations have also improved significantly.
One of the jobs of a GA reviewer is to examine whether the facts presented in the article are properly referenced. You have certainly provided far more refs than most editors but there is just one, for me important, aspect of his painting which does not seem to be covered by the reference given. It is his use of color, especially in relation to blue for the divine. Maybe it's in H. Suh's book but I could not find it in Erikson's though I did find the "radient gold light" there. I'm sure it is not difficult to find a more specific reference for this, perhaps to be inserted after "the intense blue of the sky to symbolize the "divine and infinite presence" of Jesus" in the following passage:
Another minor suggestion is about the lead. It now ends "His paintings of olive pickers demonstrate the relationship between man and nature." Perhaps that could be reworded as "His paintings of olive pickers emphasize the importance Van Gogh ascribed to the relationship between man and nature in his understanding of the divine." And I think the lead needs some kind of conclusion such as "Van Gogh's olive tree paintings, some of which are among his finest works, were completed in 1888–89, the year before his death." Please don't just copy my wording though. I'm sure you can contribute something more appropriate. You did a great job on the biography section. I wonder if External links should not be a separate section? They are not necessarily references. - Ipigott ( talk) 09:50, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
The whole article looks pretty good to me now. I'll try to find time to do the GA review tomorrow. Thanks for following up on so many of my suggestions. Perhaps you could now also apply this approach to the Langlois Bridge. It's great to work with someone who's so responsive and obviously keen on the subject matter. - Ipigott ( talk) 21:24, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
Please stop redirecting articles about Van Gogh's paintings to your newly created article. Stub articles about notable subjects should be expanded, not redirected, and by consensus, every one of the paintings of a famous artist is individually notable. Dolovis ( talk) 03:25, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
Your first good article, nicely done... Modernist ( talk) 21:37, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
On looking more thoroughly at the article, I find I have some additional concerns. The first is in relation to the article Langlois Bridge. A reviewer might wonder (a) why you did not simply expand that article and (b) why you have copied a fairly long section (the Silverman quote) from it without - as far as I can see - any changes. I also note that nearly all your images are in that article too. I therefore suggest you enlarge on the section you have copied, for example by providing a more complete introduction to Silverman's work, possibly along with comparable sources, and replacing the bullet points (which are not always welcome in WP articles) by a paraphrase in running prose. In regard to the images, I suggest (especially in connection with the drawings) you add an appropriate introduction. Perhaps you could go even further with the section on drawings, explaining more of the background and the relationship between the drawings and the paintings. There might be some indications here or here. There also seem to be a number of books on the subject including the one from the Rijksmuseum (Sjraar van Heugten, Vincent van Gogh drawings, Vol 4 - ISBN 0853317410). I also see there's quite a lot on the drawings (in French) here. You should be able to find the equivalent passages from VG's letters in English. You may well have other sources or access to libraries. And while I'm here, I'm glad to see the problem with the redirect has been sorted out. Look forward to your reactions. Maybe once again I'm pushing you too hard! - Ipigott ( talk) 15:25, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
For folks who have been watch the Vincent van Gogh articles and helping them move along, would you please take a look at: New section: Forum for standards, changes, prioritization. Thanks everyone who has been following along on the developments. It's a good thing. It's just starting to hit critical mass and it's probably good to sort some things out for standards, etc.-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 18:29, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi Carole, sign up and join the visual arts project - [4]... Modernist ( talk) 20:15, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
You wrote on VA talk,
A tag has been placed on Sien (Van Gogh), requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a redirect to an article talk page, file description page, file talk page, MediaWiki page, MediaWiki talk page, category talk page, portal talk page, template talk page, help talk, user page, user talk or special page from the main/article space.
If you can fix the redirect to point to a
mainspace page, please do so and remove the speedy deletion tag. However, please do not remove the speedy deletion tag unless you are fixing the redirect. If you think the redirect should be retained as is for some reason, contest the deletion by clicking on the button that looks like this: which appears inside of the speedy deletion ({{db-...}}
) tag (if no such tag exists, the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate). Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the
the article's talk page directly to give your reasons. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this.
DASHBot (
talk) 23:00, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi Carole I wanted to tell you about this book - Rosenblum, Robert (1975), Modern Painting and the Northern Romantic Tradition: Friedrich to Rothko, New York: Harper & Row, ISBN 0-06-430057-9; I highly recommend it - it's an interesting read especially the Van Gogh section... Modernist ( talk) 20:58, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi Carole, I just saw that your article about Van Gogh's Olive Trees was promoted to GA Class. I think you are doing wonderful work here and are a great asset to Wikipedia! Once again, congratulations!-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 06:20, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi, a suggestion or two on refeferences....if your using a book source as an inline more than once, put in the bib. or sources section, and trim down the actual inline to the author, year and page number, as here [5]. And, and this is important, try and avoid citation templates, hand code the refs. This is for many reasons, but mainly because thoes templates take up a lot of space, are hard to follow, and make edit mode a rough place for other editors. The are almost never used in art pages. Now, that said, LORD GOD are you doing great work here, and this is not a critism, just tips. Best. Ceoil 13:02, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
Outdenting.... Is there a MOS or VAMOS issue with using refname in a short ref for a bibliography to avoid having a lot of lines for the same page number reference?-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 14:45, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
I'm laughing because I think you're joking with me! You could say I'm giving you credit for being able to link a reference to a bibliography!!! It's very slick! It's all in what's going to best serve the work. Ceoil and Modernist have a better idea of who other writers are that come to the visual arts project and how people are guided. That's all!!! (Not all of us are [strike: lucky enough] have been able to benefit from the hard work to get the Cambridge degrees!!) You're amazing, some of us (me) are just trying to keep up.-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 17:33, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
On Yahoo today: [6]... Modernist ( talk) 11:00, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
The timing of my intro of you to Moonriddengirl may, it seems, have been a little unfortunate. I think that she'll still assist & you should certainly have a word, but she does now have a new job. I'm really pleased for her but simultaneously would not wish that one on anybody. If anybody can do it then she can ... but, geez. - Sitush ( talk) 23:41, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
Carole in a few weeks or less Ceoil and I will nominate the VvG article for FA status and I'd like you to join us... Modernist ( talk) 20:45, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Sure. When you're ready, I would be happy to tackle, as a starting point, the movements of Vincent and his family (why, etc.) I think that's 4-5 items on the list. I added a few comments on the sandbox page, but I'll add more where I know I have info. Let me know when and I'd be happy to dig in.-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 16:03, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
Here are the sources I primarily use: For the information about Vincent or his families movement, I'd use Wallace, "The World of Vincent van Gogh". And I have three books from the library and another three to pick up today.
Ever open your mouth and be dismayed at the words that come out? Happened to me tonight. Apologies. Ceoil 18:48, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
Has anyone gotten that my question was NOT about templates, what was confusing to me was "this page". I was trying to figure out how to execute that? Put the edits in the talk page of a sandbox? So, I was suggesting that I make the changes in my sandbox and move them over. This is why I'm upset. I'm not feeling criticized, I'm feeling totally and utterly unheard. I have no idea why this blew up the way it did! None!-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 22:07, 5 June 2011 (UTC) I don't mean to be disrespectful, I'm just really realy confused.-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 22:09, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
I should have stuck to my word to think about it after an overnight's sleep - I was just so excited to feel like we were having the same conversation that I commited to getting back into VvG work. These kinds of conversations are difficult for everyone - and it might not seem so, but I know that you all were trying to get to a better place.
I'm going to heed Modernist's advice for the moment and concentrate on some things I need to take care of. It sounds like you all will be working on this for awhile, so I may pop back in.-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 00:59, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
I have always seen this as a project by the three of you - so the whole wild understanding yesterday should have no impact on your plans - at least I would hope not. I was talking to you TK because you seemed to be the lead - and seemed to be willing to listen to what was really going on - and that I was feeling it from all sides. It wasn't at all meant to target you specifically at all!!! You are incredible, did an incredible job on the summary and should be commended for that!!!! You all of done such incredible work on the article - and it's to be commended, as well as the incredible work by TK to develop the summary of really going perspectives to use for improving articles. I'm getting that it's harder to accept constuctive criticism from a newbie, Ceoil, and I'll accept that.-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 20:06, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
There's one of us whose become very de-motivated to continue this work, I truly hope two don't go down.-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 20:09, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
Hi Carole, I'm putting this here so all involved can read it. Regarding this conversation, I think it's time to move away. You've made it very clear that you're hurt. I'm hurt too - not so much for myself, but for my dear friends Modernist and Ceoil. As editors, I have the highest regard for them; they've helped me immensely during my wiki-career; and I consider them wiki-friends. I'm particularly upset that Ceoil apologized multiple times and his apologies were summarily dismissed.
Regarding your complaints about me and the specific topic of the thread on Sitush's page: I simply asked for sources which you linked. I said gbooks aren't reliable. I did not say you cannot use them. Personally, I prefer not to, because they frustrate me. I'd rather have hardback volumes without disappearing pages. The comment about the refs was a throw-away aside (I've explained and apologized for this multiple times), without realizing it was any kind of an issue. And honestly, it should not be an issue.
I did not intend to take charge or to lead the effort - I made a review. Typically before articles are brought to FAC, they go through multiple stages of review: WP:GAN and peer review. I review at FAC fairly frequently and know how to do a review - this was a way to save time rather than submitting to peer review. I am also hurt that you and Sitush believe I've steamrolled you - that's not all my style.
Clearly we've written more than enough walls of text that causes a WP:Too long; didn't read reaction. Time to move on and let it go. I'd suggest you and Modernist give this a shot. Feel free to use the review as a starting point. Truthkeeper88 ( talk) 15:59, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
The article Langlois Bridge at Arles (Van Gogh series) you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold . The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needed to be addressed. If these are fixed within seven days, the article will pass, otherwise it will fail. See Talk:Langlois Bridge at Arles (Van Gogh series) for things which need to be addressed. Jezhotwells ( talk) 19:29, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Wheatfield with Crows cropped up on my watchlist today, and my gut reaction was I really want to work on the bio. Our friendship started well, then became a disaster, and likely we will always put each other at the far end of a untrusted stick. But we have have the same interests, and a shared goal, so its pragmatic to put it aside, roll up our sleeves and work together. No way would I approach the article if you were not there, that would just be wrong. I'll give it a try if you will. This not an apology or explanation, its a path forward. Ceoil 20:53, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
Carole, there's not good way of doing this, so I'll just spit it out. As I've been trying to work my way through the main van Gogh biography, I've been linking into some of the subarticles, which you seem to have written. It's important to for you to read Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing to avoid copyvio. The issue needs to be addressed and all the articles scrubbed. Thanks. Truthkeeper88 ( talk) 16:24, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
Examples. These are only spot-checks, a single example from only a few pages:
VVG1 Van Gogh's family in his art
Johannes van Gogh, who was a gold-wire drawer, a Bible teacher and a clerk in the Cloister Church at The Hague. His great-uncle Vincent, an accomplished sculptor who died a single man, left money to the family which allowed Vincent to study theology at the University of Leiden.
Source: [11]:
Johannes was at first a gold-wire drawer like his father, but he later became a Bible teacher and a clerk in the Cloister Church at The Hague. He married Johanna van der Vin of Malines, and their son Vincent (1789 -1874) was enabled, by the legacy of his great-uncle Vincent, to study theology at the University of Leiden
source: [12]:
VVG2Also from Van Gogh's family in his art
Theodorus van Gogh was a handsome man with a loving nature and spiritually devout. He was not a great speaker and throughout his career he was placed only in small villages, but was cared for and respected by the communities he served and "idolized" by his children.[2]
Theodorus van Gogh was a man of prepossessing appearance (“the handsome dominie” he was called by some), with a loving nature and fine spiritual qualities; but he was not a gifted preacher ... But in his small circle he was warmly loved and respected, and his children idolized him.
VVG3 Wheat Fields (Van Gogh series). Note, I fixed this one [13]
van Gogh, who particularly enjoyed Walt Whitman's poem about beauty to be found in a blade of grass, began painting swaying stalks of wheat in Paris.
Source [14]
Van Gogh ... particularly admired a poem about the beauty in a blade of grass. He started painting grasses in Paris
The Four Corners region of the Colorado Plateau, which consists of southern Utah, northern Arizona, northwest New Mexico, and southwest Colorado, was the homeland of ancient Pueblo, or villager, people. By 1300 AD there had been a shift to the Rio Grande Valley of New Mexico and the Mogollon Rim in central Arizona. Anasazi is a term commonly used since its publication in the 1930s. The Navajo word does not represent specific tribes but means enemy or outsider. It is therefore disliked by the modern Pueblo people who have oral histories about the ancient people, make pilgrimages to ancient sites and maintain shrines in the Four Corners region.[2]
Source: [15]
The ancestral Puebloan homeland was centered in the Four Corners region of the Colorado Plateau-- southern Utah, northern Arizona, northwest New Mexico, and a lesser section of Colorado-- where their occupation lasted until 1280 or so. By 1300 AD the population centers had shifted south to the Rio Grande Valley of New Mexico and the Mogollon Rim in central Arizona, where related people had already been living for centuries... Modern Pueblo people dislike the name "Anasazi" which they consider an ethnic slur. This Navajo word means ancient enemy (or old-time stranger, alien, foreigner, outsider) although it has been in common use for about about 70 years.
On April 19, 1863 a fire swept through their Denver store, causing significant damage. The Wisebart Central City store also succumbed to fire with $50,000 in damages. The Jacobs then moved to Denver and Abraham Jacobs ran his O.K. Clothing store on Larimer Street until it went out of business in 1885. The same year, one of Frances and Abrahams' sons died.[3]
Source: page 38-39
First the "great fire" swept through Denver's business district on April 19, 1863 and did serious damage to his Denver store. Then a fire in Central City destroyed the Wisebart store, hitting the owners with a $50,000 loss. Within a year, the Jacobs family moved to Denver where Abraham also owned the OK Clothing Store on Larimer Street. But in 1885, this store went out of business. In a final blow, one of Abraham and Frances' sons died.
Bent provided gifts to everyone in the village, which included horses, saddles and bridles; blankets and cloth; guns, kettles, beads and silver ornaments.[6]
Source: page 165- 166
William's task as groom was to distribute gifts ... He gave horses, guns, kettles, silver ornaments, beads, cloth blankets, saddles and bridles
Each of the Benson children was given a weekly allowance, allowing them to independently explore activities of an educational nature.
Source: [16]
Each of them had a toolbox and a weekly allowance, to be spent on "things of an educational or experimental nature
I'm happy to explain why these are considere close paraphrases which we avoid because of copyvio issues. What specifically didn't you understand in the links I posted above? I am more than happy to clarify. The choices are to delete, to reword in such a way to avoid a close paraphrase (often exceedingly difficult), or to add attribution to the author and quotation marks. Truthkeeper88 ( talk) 19:17, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
I was happy with where the edits got to for the Van Gogh's family in his art article - and I'm sure if you thought it was important to add Cent Suisse there was a reason for it (e.g., showed a bit more about his make-up, prestige to become part of that group, etc.) We come from two different perspectives some times, and I thought we got to a good end result. If you're happy with reverting back, though, I'll roll with it.-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 17:10, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
Carole, I spent two hours putting together the examples you requested and formatting them. Per talkpage guidelines can you please not refactor my comments, so it's easy to see what's what. Thanks. Truthkeeper88 ( talk) 19:36, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
TK, definitely a "he" - that's why my temper sometimes gets the better of me, sorry ;) Carole, this is tricky stuff and I think that everyone gets it wrong from time to time. There are indeed some circumstances, particularly regarding the order of wording, where it is nigh on impossible to approach things from another angle. In these cases, Moonriddengirl once told me, just go for it. An example would be where you a presenting a potted history. Since histories only ever work as in themed or chronological order, and since themed is a rare case, it is next to impossible to avoid following the overall structure of a source. However, you can break things up by incorporating several sources, sometimes even in a single sentence. In the ideal world, yes, you read up, walk away, cogitate, come back and write without looking at the source material. In practice, especially if you have the sort of memory that I have, even doing that may not avoid close paraphrasing because entire phrases stick in my head. You'll have to bear in mind with these specific VvG examples, I know nowt about VvG and am not about to start reading umpteen sources, but I'll do what I can. It is particularly awkward when working with short snippets. - Sitush ( talk) 20:58, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE STOP and let me make some headway - and no personal attacks or I am totally done with this conversation!!! WP:Civility-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 21:29, 26 June 2011 (UTC) PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE STOP and let me make some headway. This is the last time I ask.-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 21:33, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
Review your VvG articles as well, at your own pace, and re-write what you can... Modernist ( talk) 02:01, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Hi Carole, responding to your email here. I don't always check my wiki email and didn't find it until the next day - at that point wanted to let the dust settle. I'm a little confused in that you think I my comments were appreciated, which is not how I perceived it here, but thanks anyway. I'd like to start working my way through Van Gogh's family in his art to set up for the main biography, but I'm sure you've seen my message on Modernist's page. If he prefers I stay away from VvG and if I'm perceived as creating unnecessary drama, then it's best I find something else to do. Truthkeeper88 ( talk) 16:04, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
( edit conflict):Hi TK. Again, I'm not sure what I can do to help. If you cannot see that it was taken very seriously: 1) I stopped the work I was doing on another article, 2) Was working on addressing the examples to learn specifically what was wrong and what I needed to do to fix it, 3) Created a workpage to manage this as a project, and 4) Have since spent about 98% of my WP time since working on close paraphrasing, including additions to the close paraphrasing article to help other newbies in the future -- if none of that shows how seriously your concerns were taken, I'm really not sure what would.
I haven't been ignoring you, I had some daily life issues to work on and haven't read this until now.
I'm confused myself. I didn't realize that you needed a response from me about working on the VvG articles I wrote. You didn't want Sitush and I to work on them. As mentioned on Moonriddengirl's page, since that was an issue with you, we started with non-VvG issues. I never said that working through the examples would solve the entire problem - I'm not sure what gave you that idea that anyone thought working through the examples would solve the whole situation - which you'd see if you noticed the work on Owl Woman and my self-review and edits to Anasazi Heritage Center. I said I'm done with VvG because there seems to be such a huge communication issue between the two of us and with Ceoil - and have removed my VvG articles from my watchlist. Whatever you'd like to do there is fine with me.
It's such a shame that you continually assume that we have different goals and that I don't want good end products or am in opposition to the higher guidelines and strategy of Wikipedia. I now know I shouldn't, but in the past I took it as a personal slam everytime you make a comment like that.
What specifically do you need from me so that you can move on?-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 19:52, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: date format (
link) CS1 maint: postscript (
link)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Hi. I've nominated Portrait of Pére Tanguy, an article you worked on, for consideration to appear on the Main Page as part of Wikipedia:Did you know. You can see the hook for the article here, where you can improve it if you see fit. Chimino ( talk) 00:43, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Hello! Your submission of
Portrait of Pére Tanguy at the
Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath
your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know!
Hello again. What I meant was that the article, which now reads very well, might have a couple of format issues. Having a look over WP:MOS might help. What caught my eye in the Tanguy section is the lead section, and how it relates to the body of text. Ideally, the lead section does not contain citations, because it summarizes facts that are supposed to be cited, and discussed more in-depth, in the article itself. This also means that the lead should preferable not contain info that is not discussed and cited in the article. See WP:LEAD for what is intended. I wanted to correct that myself, but the format you used is quite laborious, but you may consider having a second look - when you're okay with that, of course, and provided you agree. The citation format, I have to say, looks a bit counter-intuitive to me (it's needlessly complicated), but you're of course entitled to dismiss that. Btw, the article as we stand has a "citation needed" tag that you may wish to address at some point. Dahn ( talk) 15:12, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
You might want to add something (anything) to your userpage. This will get the red out of your name in edit histories. It's your choice, but I recommend it. Happy editing. 7&6=thirteen ( ☎) 23:32, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
May I weigh in? It's getting huge, and will only expand as more articles are written on his paintings. I wonder if the list of paintings on the template shouldn't be for major works (i.e. Tanguy) only?-- Chimino ( talk) 18:27, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
van Gogh did 15 paintings about Olive trees, the topic for the next painting from NGA that I wanted to work on. I'm also wondering if it might make sense to write one article about Olive Tree/Orchard, have a gallery of the paintings, and then right about the subject as a whole. What are your thoughts Modernist or Chimino (or anyone else) on that? Thanks so much! It's great to be able to bounce ideas by you!! -- CaroleHenson ( talk) 20:22, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
On 28 March 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Portrait of Pére Tanguy, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the final Portrait of Père Tanguy (pictured) was purchased by the sculptor Auguste Rodin and now resides in his museum in Paris? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page ( here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page. |
Cheers, Big Dom 16:02, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
First of all, thanks to all the editors that help me out along the way!!! It's greatly appreciated!
For anyone that may see this. I'm wondering why images sometimes appear as a white box with an "x" in User:CaroleHenson/Olive Trees. One thought might be there's too many images - but it's far less than the number of images in the List of works by Vincent van Gogh. Any ideas? Thanks!!!-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 15:04, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Hi CArole, hope you're doing ok - it looks like it from your recent contributions. I'm just wondering whether you could drop by on User_talk:Panderoona. This is a new user who is becoming a bit daunted by it all, rather as you were a couple of months back. Since you are now doing great I thought perhaps you might care to offer your thoughts to the newcomer and spread the load a bit. If it all comes from me then I think we might lose the person from the project, which would be a shame. Thanks, and no obligation! - Sitush ( talk) 15:32, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
I am a Wikipedian, who is studying the phenomenon on Wikipedia. I need your help to conduct my research on about understanding "Motivation of Wikipedia contributors." I would like to invite you to a short survey. Please give me your valuable time, which estimates only 5 minutes’’’. cooldenny ( talk) 18:05, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
Hi Carole here's a few more kids:
Good job... Modernist ( talk) 18:51, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
Hi Carole I'm wondering about this line - Vincent's paintings were sold in bundles at an incredibly low rate to pay off creditors that's in the lede at Agostina Segatori Sitting in the Café du Tambourin. The mythology is that Vincent only sold one painting in his sweet short life to Anna Boch - The Red Vineyard. If bundles of his paintings were sold (even if he didn't profit from the sales) - which paintings? - who bought them? - how many? - what happened to them? - did the buyers profit? - is the source accurate? so many unanswered questions. What do you think?.. Modernist ( talk) 05:07, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Very strange! I still don't have it. I tried sending myself a test email to see if it's a server issue, but it popped right in and I checked spam and the email didn't go there. To be safe, I'll go add your email address to my address book, which couldn't hurt. Sure try again.-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 04:36, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
The Barnstar of High Culture | ||
Excellent work Carole, on all articles related to - Vincent van Gogh. Modernist ( talk) 16:20, 17 April 2011 (UTC) |
Hi, good additions there. If you manage to expand 5 fold in the next 5 days (not hard given that there was little text there before), we can get it on WP:DYK and I will suggest it should go on there on 29 July. Cheers. History2007 ( talk) 19:27, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
I think as of now this looks better than many Wikipedia articles, so I am not sure what else you would want to add. You just need to decide on a DYK fact with a good reference today and then we can set it up for July 29. That way, eventually July 29 will become a national holiday in the Benelux - they just need an excuse if one gives them the idea. History2007 ( talk) 15:23, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
Hi Carole, On the Portrait of Dr. Gachet page, there is an uncited claim of the second version being a forgery. I was planning on expanding this article in the near future, but in the meantime was wondering if you've ever come across this claim in your research?-- Chimino ( talk) 07:25, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
The Barnstar of Fine Arts | ||
For a bang-up job expanding Langlois Bridge at Arles, an article on a key painting by a major artist. — Daniel Case ( talk) 16:18, 1 May 2011 (UTC) |
Thanks, Daniel!! And a continued thanks to Modernist who has greatly supported me, edited the articles and ensure that I've aligned with the WP:MOS and other guidelines!-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 16:35, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
I too was about to award you this barnstar but someone else got there first. Well done. Excellent work - and you've done so much is such a short time. Trying to emulate Van Gogh, no doubt! - Ipigott ( talk) 08:53, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
On 7 May 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Langlois Bridge at Arles, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Vincent van Gogh called his 1888 painting Langlois Bridge at Arles (pictured) "something funny ... I will not create every day"? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page ( here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page. |
The DYK project ( nominate) 12:02, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi Carole, I haven't seen Gate in the Paris Ramp 1886 however here are three that haven't been included in the List here, that I found along the way, although there are others out there... Modernist ( talk) 01:45, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi Carole. As you seem to becoming something of a specialist in describing Van Gogh's paintings, I though I would bring to your attention the conventions for capitalizing Dutch names with "van". I had trouble sorting out things myself so I certainly understand the usage you have chosen. The article Van (Dutch) provides a pretty good overview and states in particular: "The "v" is written in lower case, except if the first name or initials are omitted, in which case it is capitalised, as in "de schilder Van Gogh" ("the painter Van Gogh") or "de heer Van Teylingen" ("Mister Van Teylingen")." These conventions also seem to be used pretty widely in English, as in the main article on Vincent van Gogh. You will see I made what I considered to be the necessary edits to your wonderful article on Langlois Bridge at Arles but would like to give you the chance to respond before making similar changes to the other articles you have written on Van Gogh. And by the way, I was wondering if you would be interested in aiming for GA (good article) status for the Langlois Bridge at Arles. I think you are almost there. - Ipigott ( talk) 09:42, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I suggest the best way for you to go about the good article process is to nominate it yourself using the procedure shown at Wikipedia:Good article nominations. Once it comes up, I would be happy to help with the review. You can also immediately see the criteria you need to follow and you may like to make some adjustments first. - Ipigott ( talk) 16:15, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I see you already have Olive Trees (series) in the stack. I'll have a good look at that one now. - Ipigott ( talk) 07:53, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for making that article; the original redirect from the List went to the Cairo painting, and I was told to make an article for it if I wanted it to link properly.-- Chimino ( talk) 16:11, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Sorry about adding the image of back of houses without seeing whether or not you'd seen it; I'll run the next ones by you if I find some more orphaned images... Modernist ( talk) 00:47, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
The article is certainly a good candidate for GA. I think you have covered all the essentials. It might be useful to be more consistent in maintaing a single format throughout (use of galleries, etc.). Maybe it would also be an idea to explain the general context in a bit more detail and also add a word about how significant the olive tree paintings are to VG's work as a whole and how they have been received (if you think this is important). The aspect I found most difficult to follow was the section on the spiritual significance. You provide a very general introduction to VG's interest in spirituality going right back to 1876. Perhaps it would be more useful to concentrate on his more immediate concerns around 1889 and the effects, if any, of his illness on his spirituality. GA articles on art also usually include a bibliography or further reading section. I see you have several pertinent references to literature - so some of these could be used in the bibliography. If you think I am being too demanding (as I probably am), please let me know. This source may be of some assistance.
One of the articles about paintings to have GA status is Bonaparte Crossing the Alps. I'm not suggesting you should cover all the sections and the amount of detail presented there but it might provide a few ideas. Let me know if you need further help. Once you are satisfied with the article, I'll start the review - if no one else gets there first! - Ipigott ( talk) 10:23, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
You've certainly done an excellent job on all this and seem to have invested a considerable amount of time. I also see you now have a total of 18 olive tree works. Some of your additions and references provide much more insight into VG's motivations, especially in regard to spirituality. The overall display and the gallery presentations have also improved significantly.
One of the jobs of a GA reviewer is to examine whether the facts presented in the article are properly referenced. You have certainly provided far more refs than most editors but there is just one, for me important, aspect of his painting which does not seem to be covered by the reference given. It is his use of color, especially in relation to blue for the divine. Maybe it's in H. Suh's book but I could not find it in Erikson's though I did find the "radient gold light" there. I'm sure it is not difficult to find a more specific reference for this, perhaps to be inserted after "the intense blue of the sky to symbolize the "divine and infinite presence" of Jesus" in the following passage:
Another minor suggestion is about the lead. It now ends "His paintings of olive pickers demonstrate the relationship between man and nature." Perhaps that could be reworded as "His paintings of olive pickers emphasize the importance Van Gogh ascribed to the relationship between man and nature in his understanding of the divine." And I think the lead needs some kind of conclusion such as "Van Gogh's olive tree paintings, some of which are among his finest works, were completed in 1888–89, the year before his death." Please don't just copy my wording though. I'm sure you can contribute something more appropriate. You did a great job on the biography section. I wonder if External links should not be a separate section? They are not necessarily references. - Ipigott ( talk) 09:50, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
The whole article looks pretty good to me now. I'll try to find time to do the GA review tomorrow. Thanks for following up on so many of my suggestions. Perhaps you could now also apply this approach to the Langlois Bridge. It's great to work with someone who's so responsive and obviously keen on the subject matter. - Ipigott ( talk) 21:24, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
Please stop redirecting articles about Van Gogh's paintings to your newly created article. Stub articles about notable subjects should be expanded, not redirected, and by consensus, every one of the paintings of a famous artist is individually notable. Dolovis ( talk) 03:25, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
Your first good article, nicely done... Modernist ( talk) 21:37, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
On looking more thoroughly at the article, I find I have some additional concerns. The first is in relation to the article Langlois Bridge. A reviewer might wonder (a) why you did not simply expand that article and (b) why you have copied a fairly long section (the Silverman quote) from it without - as far as I can see - any changes. I also note that nearly all your images are in that article too. I therefore suggest you enlarge on the section you have copied, for example by providing a more complete introduction to Silverman's work, possibly along with comparable sources, and replacing the bullet points (which are not always welcome in WP articles) by a paraphrase in running prose. In regard to the images, I suggest (especially in connection with the drawings) you add an appropriate introduction. Perhaps you could go even further with the section on drawings, explaining more of the background and the relationship between the drawings and the paintings. There might be some indications here or here. There also seem to be a number of books on the subject including the one from the Rijksmuseum (Sjraar van Heugten, Vincent van Gogh drawings, Vol 4 - ISBN 0853317410). I also see there's quite a lot on the drawings (in French) here. You should be able to find the equivalent passages from VG's letters in English. You may well have other sources or access to libraries. And while I'm here, I'm glad to see the problem with the redirect has been sorted out. Look forward to your reactions. Maybe once again I'm pushing you too hard! - Ipigott ( talk) 15:25, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
For folks who have been watch the Vincent van Gogh articles and helping them move along, would you please take a look at: New section: Forum for standards, changes, prioritization. Thanks everyone who has been following along on the developments. It's a good thing. It's just starting to hit critical mass and it's probably good to sort some things out for standards, etc.-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 18:29, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi Carole, sign up and join the visual arts project - [4]... Modernist ( talk) 20:15, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
You wrote on VA talk,
A tag has been placed on Sien (Van Gogh), requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a redirect to an article talk page, file description page, file talk page, MediaWiki page, MediaWiki talk page, category talk page, portal talk page, template talk page, help talk, user page, user talk or special page from the main/article space.
If you can fix the redirect to point to a
mainspace page, please do so and remove the speedy deletion tag. However, please do not remove the speedy deletion tag unless you are fixing the redirect. If you think the redirect should be retained as is for some reason, contest the deletion by clicking on the button that looks like this: which appears inside of the speedy deletion ({{db-...}}
) tag (if no such tag exists, the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate). Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the
the article's talk page directly to give your reasons. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this.
DASHBot (
talk) 23:00, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi Carole I wanted to tell you about this book - Rosenblum, Robert (1975), Modern Painting and the Northern Romantic Tradition: Friedrich to Rothko, New York: Harper & Row, ISBN 0-06-430057-9; I highly recommend it - it's an interesting read especially the Van Gogh section... Modernist ( talk) 20:58, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi Carole, I just saw that your article about Van Gogh's Olive Trees was promoted to GA Class. I think you are doing wonderful work here and are a great asset to Wikipedia! Once again, congratulations!-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 06:20, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi, a suggestion or two on refeferences....if your using a book source as an inline more than once, put in the bib. or sources section, and trim down the actual inline to the author, year and page number, as here [5]. And, and this is important, try and avoid citation templates, hand code the refs. This is for many reasons, but mainly because thoes templates take up a lot of space, are hard to follow, and make edit mode a rough place for other editors. The are almost never used in art pages. Now, that said, LORD GOD are you doing great work here, and this is not a critism, just tips. Best. Ceoil 13:02, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
Outdenting.... Is there a MOS or VAMOS issue with using refname in a short ref for a bibliography to avoid having a lot of lines for the same page number reference?-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 14:45, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
I'm laughing because I think you're joking with me! You could say I'm giving you credit for being able to link a reference to a bibliography!!! It's very slick! It's all in what's going to best serve the work. Ceoil and Modernist have a better idea of who other writers are that come to the visual arts project and how people are guided. That's all!!! (Not all of us are [strike: lucky enough] have been able to benefit from the hard work to get the Cambridge degrees!!) You're amazing, some of us (me) are just trying to keep up.-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 17:33, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
On Yahoo today: [6]... Modernist ( talk) 11:00, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
The timing of my intro of you to Moonriddengirl may, it seems, have been a little unfortunate. I think that she'll still assist & you should certainly have a word, but she does now have a new job. I'm really pleased for her but simultaneously would not wish that one on anybody. If anybody can do it then she can ... but, geez. - Sitush ( talk) 23:41, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
Carole in a few weeks or less Ceoil and I will nominate the VvG article for FA status and I'd like you to join us... Modernist ( talk) 20:45, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Sure. When you're ready, I would be happy to tackle, as a starting point, the movements of Vincent and his family (why, etc.) I think that's 4-5 items on the list. I added a few comments on the sandbox page, but I'll add more where I know I have info. Let me know when and I'd be happy to dig in.-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 16:03, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
Here are the sources I primarily use: For the information about Vincent or his families movement, I'd use Wallace, "The World of Vincent van Gogh". And I have three books from the library and another three to pick up today.
Ever open your mouth and be dismayed at the words that come out? Happened to me tonight. Apologies. Ceoil 18:48, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
Has anyone gotten that my question was NOT about templates, what was confusing to me was "this page". I was trying to figure out how to execute that? Put the edits in the talk page of a sandbox? So, I was suggesting that I make the changes in my sandbox and move them over. This is why I'm upset. I'm not feeling criticized, I'm feeling totally and utterly unheard. I have no idea why this blew up the way it did! None!-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 22:07, 5 June 2011 (UTC) I don't mean to be disrespectful, I'm just really realy confused.-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 22:09, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
I should have stuck to my word to think about it after an overnight's sleep - I was just so excited to feel like we were having the same conversation that I commited to getting back into VvG work. These kinds of conversations are difficult for everyone - and it might not seem so, but I know that you all were trying to get to a better place.
I'm going to heed Modernist's advice for the moment and concentrate on some things I need to take care of. It sounds like you all will be working on this for awhile, so I may pop back in.-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 00:59, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
I have always seen this as a project by the three of you - so the whole wild understanding yesterday should have no impact on your plans - at least I would hope not. I was talking to you TK because you seemed to be the lead - and seemed to be willing to listen to what was really going on - and that I was feeling it from all sides. It wasn't at all meant to target you specifically at all!!! You are incredible, did an incredible job on the summary and should be commended for that!!!! You all of done such incredible work on the article - and it's to be commended, as well as the incredible work by TK to develop the summary of really going perspectives to use for improving articles. I'm getting that it's harder to accept constuctive criticism from a newbie, Ceoil, and I'll accept that.-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 20:06, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
There's one of us whose become very de-motivated to continue this work, I truly hope two don't go down.-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 20:09, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
Hi Carole, I'm putting this here so all involved can read it. Regarding this conversation, I think it's time to move away. You've made it very clear that you're hurt. I'm hurt too - not so much for myself, but for my dear friends Modernist and Ceoil. As editors, I have the highest regard for them; they've helped me immensely during my wiki-career; and I consider them wiki-friends. I'm particularly upset that Ceoil apologized multiple times and his apologies were summarily dismissed.
Regarding your complaints about me and the specific topic of the thread on Sitush's page: I simply asked for sources which you linked. I said gbooks aren't reliable. I did not say you cannot use them. Personally, I prefer not to, because they frustrate me. I'd rather have hardback volumes without disappearing pages. The comment about the refs was a throw-away aside (I've explained and apologized for this multiple times), without realizing it was any kind of an issue. And honestly, it should not be an issue.
I did not intend to take charge or to lead the effort - I made a review. Typically before articles are brought to FAC, they go through multiple stages of review: WP:GAN and peer review. I review at FAC fairly frequently and know how to do a review - this was a way to save time rather than submitting to peer review. I am also hurt that you and Sitush believe I've steamrolled you - that's not all my style.
Clearly we've written more than enough walls of text that causes a WP:Too long; didn't read reaction. Time to move on and let it go. I'd suggest you and Modernist give this a shot. Feel free to use the review as a starting point. Truthkeeper88 ( talk) 15:59, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
The article Langlois Bridge at Arles (Van Gogh series) you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold . The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needed to be addressed. If these are fixed within seven days, the article will pass, otherwise it will fail. See Talk:Langlois Bridge at Arles (Van Gogh series) for things which need to be addressed. Jezhotwells ( talk) 19:29, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Wheatfield with Crows cropped up on my watchlist today, and my gut reaction was I really want to work on the bio. Our friendship started well, then became a disaster, and likely we will always put each other at the far end of a untrusted stick. But we have have the same interests, and a shared goal, so its pragmatic to put it aside, roll up our sleeves and work together. No way would I approach the article if you were not there, that would just be wrong. I'll give it a try if you will. This not an apology or explanation, its a path forward. Ceoil 20:53, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
Carole, there's not good way of doing this, so I'll just spit it out. As I've been trying to work my way through the main van Gogh biography, I've been linking into some of the subarticles, which you seem to have written. It's important to for you to read Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing to avoid copyvio. The issue needs to be addressed and all the articles scrubbed. Thanks. Truthkeeper88 ( talk) 16:24, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
Examples. These are only spot-checks, a single example from only a few pages:
VVG1 Van Gogh's family in his art
Johannes van Gogh, who was a gold-wire drawer, a Bible teacher and a clerk in the Cloister Church at The Hague. His great-uncle Vincent, an accomplished sculptor who died a single man, left money to the family which allowed Vincent to study theology at the University of Leiden.
Source: [11]:
Johannes was at first a gold-wire drawer like his father, but he later became a Bible teacher and a clerk in the Cloister Church at The Hague. He married Johanna van der Vin of Malines, and their son Vincent (1789 -1874) was enabled, by the legacy of his great-uncle Vincent, to study theology at the University of Leiden
source: [12]:
VVG2Also from Van Gogh's family in his art
Theodorus van Gogh was a handsome man with a loving nature and spiritually devout. He was not a great speaker and throughout his career he was placed only in small villages, but was cared for and respected by the communities he served and "idolized" by his children.[2]
Theodorus van Gogh was a man of prepossessing appearance (“the handsome dominie” he was called by some), with a loving nature and fine spiritual qualities; but he was not a gifted preacher ... But in his small circle he was warmly loved and respected, and his children idolized him.
VVG3 Wheat Fields (Van Gogh series). Note, I fixed this one [13]
van Gogh, who particularly enjoyed Walt Whitman's poem about beauty to be found in a blade of grass, began painting swaying stalks of wheat in Paris.
Source [14]
Van Gogh ... particularly admired a poem about the beauty in a blade of grass. He started painting grasses in Paris
The Four Corners region of the Colorado Plateau, which consists of southern Utah, northern Arizona, northwest New Mexico, and southwest Colorado, was the homeland of ancient Pueblo, or villager, people. By 1300 AD there had been a shift to the Rio Grande Valley of New Mexico and the Mogollon Rim in central Arizona. Anasazi is a term commonly used since its publication in the 1930s. The Navajo word does not represent specific tribes but means enemy or outsider. It is therefore disliked by the modern Pueblo people who have oral histories about the ancient people, make pilgrimages to ancient sites and maintain shrines in the Four Corners region.[2]
Source: [15]
The ancestral Puebloan homeland was centered in the Four Corners region of the Colorado Plateau-- southern Utah, northern Arizona, northwest New Mexico, and a lesser section of Colorado-- where their occupation lasted until 1280 or so. By 1300 AD the population centers had shifted south to the Rio Grande Valley of New Mexico and the Mogollon Rim in central Arizona, where related people had already been living for centuries... Modern Pueblo people dislike the name "Anasazi" which they consider an ethnic slur. This Navajo word means ancient enemy (or old-time stranger, alien, foreigner, outsider) although it has been in common use for about about 70 years.
On April 19, 1863 a fire swept through their Denver store, causing significant damage. The Wisebart Central City store also succumbed to fire with $50,000 in damages. The Jacobs then moved to Denver and Abraham Jacobs ran his O.K. Clothing store on Larimer Street until it went out of business in 1885. The same year, one of Frances and Abrahams' sons died.[3]
Source: page 38-39
First the "great fire" swept through Denver's business district on April 19, 1863 and did serious damage to his Denver store. Then a fire in Central City destroyed the Wisebart store, hitting the owners with a $50,000 loss. Within a year, the Jacobs family moved to Denver where Abraham also owned the OK Clothing Store on Larimer Street. But in 1885, this store went out of business. In a final blow, one of Abraham and Frances' sons died.
Bent provided gifts to everyone in the village, which included horses, saddles and bridles; blankets and cloth; guns, kettles, beads and silver ornaments.[6]
Source: page 165- 166
William's task as groom was to distribute gifts ... He gave horses, guns, kettles, silver ornaments, beads, cloth blankets, saddles and bridles
Each of the Benson children was given a weekly allowance, allowing them to independently explore activities of an educational nature.
Source: [16]
Each of them had a toolbox and a weekly allowance, to be spent on "things of an educational or experimental nature
I'm happy to explain why these are considere close paraphrases which we avoid because of copyvio issues. What specifically didn't you understand in the links I posted above? I am more than happy to clarify. The choices are to delete, to reword in such a way to avoid a close paraphrase (often exceedingly difficult), or to add attribution to the author and quotation marks. Truthkeeper88 ( talk) 19:17, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
I was happy with where the edits got to for the Van Gogh's family in his art article - and I'm sure if you thought it was important to add Cent Suisse there was a reason for it (e.g., showed a bit more about his make-up, prestige to become part of that group, etc.) We come from two different perspectives some times, and I thought we got to a good end result. If you're happy with reverting back, though, I'll roll with it.-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 17:10, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
Carole, I spent two hours putting together the examples you requested and formatting them. Per talkpage guidelines can you please not refactor my comments, so it's easy to see what's what. Thanks. Truthkeeper88 ( talk) 19:36, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
TK, definitely a "he" - that's why my temper sometimes gets the better of me, sorry ;) Carole, this is tricky stuff and I think that everyone gets it wrong from time to time. There are indeed some circumstances, particularly regarding the order of wording, where it is nigh on impossible to approach things from another angle. In these cases, Moonriddengirl once told me, just go for it. An example would be where you a presenting a potted history. Since histories only ever work as in themed or chronological order, and since themed is a rare case, it is next to impossible to avoid following the overall structure of a source. However, you can break things up by incorporating several sources, sometimes even in a single sentence. In the ideal world, yes, you read up, walk away, cogitate, come back and write without looking at the source material. In practice, especially if you have the sort of memory that I have, even doing that may not avoid close paraphrasing because entire phrases stick in my head. You'll have to bear in mind with these specific VvG examples, I know nowt about VvG and am not about to start reading umpteen sources, but I'll do what I can. It is particularly awkward when working with short snippets. - Sitush ( talk) 20:58, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE STOP and let me make some headway - and no personal attacks or I am totally done with this conversation!!! WP:Civility-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 21:29, 26 June 2011 (UTC) PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE STOP and let me make some headway. This is the last time I ask.-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 21:33, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
Review your VvG articles as well, at your own pace, and re-write what you can... Modernist ( talk) 02:01, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Hi Carole, responding to your email here. I don't always check my wiki email and didn't find it until the next day - at that point wanted to let the dust settle. I'm a little confused in that you think I my comments were appreciated, which is not how I perceived it here, but thanks anyway. I'd like to start working my way through Van Gogh's family in his art to set up for the main biography, but I'm sure you've seen my message on Modernist's page. If he prefers I stay away from VvG and if I'm perceived as creating unnecessary drama, then it's best I find something else to do. Truthkeeper88 ( talk) 16:04, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
( edit conflict):Hi TK. Again, I'm not sure what I can do to help. If you cannot see that it was taken very seriously: 1) I stopped the work I was doing on another article, 2) Was working on addressing the examples to learn specifically what was wrong and what I needed to do to fix it, 3) Created a workpage to manage this as a project, and 4) Have since spent about 98% of my WP time since working on close paraphrasing, including additions to the close paraphrasing article to help other newbies in the future -- if none of that shows how seriously your concerns were taken, I'm really not sure what would.
I haven't been ignoring you, I had some daily life issues to work on and haven't read this until now.
I'm confused myself. I didn't realize that you needed a response from me about working on the VvG articles I wrote. You didn't want Sitush and I to work on them. As mentioned on Moonriddengirl's page, since that was an issue with you, we started with non-VvG issues. I never said that working through the examples would solve the entire problem - I'm not sure what gave you that idea that anyone thought working through the examples would solve the whole situation - which you'd see if you noticed the work on Owl Woman and my self-review and edits to Anasazi Heritage Center. I said I'm done with VvG because there seems to be such a huge communication issue between the two of us and with Ceoil - and have removed my VvG articles from my watchlist. Whatever you'd like to do there is fine with me.
It's such a shame that you continually assume that we have different goals and that I don't want good end products or am in opposition to the higher guidelines and strategy of Wikipedia. I now know I shouldn't, but in the past I took it as a personal slam everytime you make a comment like that.
What specifically do you need from me so that you can move on?-- CaroleHenson ( talk) 19:52, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: date format (
link) CS1 maint: postscript (
link)