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I made several bold changes and I felt it necessary to explain my rationale for each of them. First, I eliminated the "Modifications" section because all the articles don't belong on Wikipedia. The "Modding C&C" article is junk and no similar game has an article like it (e.g. there isn't one for StarCraft, a featured article). Every one of the mod articles were deleted from the template because, in my eyes, they are non-notable. We can't include every single mod that has some sort of award. Again, I point to StarCraft which doesn't do that. The only one I left was Red Alert: A Path Beyond because it has been heavily promoted by EA, which I felt made it notable enough and which made it stand out from the rest of the mods. Finally, I replaced the link to the article Tiberium (video game) with a link to the article Cancelled Command & Conquer games. I created this article and made the substitution because I saw no reason why Tiberium was different from Renegade 2 or Continuum. I imagine most of the articles that are no longer linked will eventually be deleted because they simply don't fit on Wikipedia, but as for now, I'm not putting any of them up for deletion in case there are good arguments for keeping them (and presumably returning them to this template if they are to be kept). - Thunderforge ( talk) 22:58, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
There is a clearly a lot of debate over how best to group the games, and in particular whether RA1 belongs with TD or RA2. I have my own thoughts on this, but instead of starting a whole new debate that has already been waged, I have a better idea: Why don't you just ask the developers themselves on the official forums? You'll almost certainly get an answer from EA Apoc. -Derek 75.183.52.222 ( talk) 17:01, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
Recent annon edits have persistently been editing the template for it to correspond with his/her view of what is "true" C&C-games. This, however, is not the meaning of this template. "Main Universe" is solely to group together the games that exist in the same original storyline/universe as the original C&C. This has been explained to the annon user but with no result. Please revert the template to the revision representing long-standing consensus, i.e. to the revision dated July 12 by Shooterwalker. Also I suggest blocking the annon user for incivility and disruptive editing. --
MrStalker (
talk)
23:48, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
The edits that MrStalker reverted were legitimate, and do not constitute vandalism. Anyone who has followed Westwood's history (the original Command & Conquer developer) and that of the franchise itself, knows that Red Alert 2 and Sole Survivor are more part of the same universe than Tiberium Wars or Tiberian Twilight, as the former two are clearly more connected to the original Command & Conquer universe than the latter two could ever be, especially when the original developers had in mind to make the Tiberian Sun's sequel following the storyline that of Red Alert 2 (see Cancelled Command & Conquer games#Command_.26_Conquer:_Tiberian_Incursion and the statement from the original C&C developers), which Tiberium Wars and Tiberian Twilight had nothing to do with, effectively placing them in the category of spin-offs.
I also advise anyone who tends to take MrStalker seriously to consider the following statement he posted on the anonymous user's talkpage: "First of all, what ex-Westwood employees say about what some design team might have considered to be the future of C&C back in the days is completely irrelevant. They may whine all they want, but Electronic Arts owns C&C. What they say is fact when it comes to C&C, regardless if it's about the earlier games of the new ones, they own all of them. If EA says that Kane is homosexual, then Kane is homosexual (compare to Dumbledore in Harry Potter: Most fans probably don't perceive him as homosexual, but if J.K. says he is, then he is. End of story.)", as well as to look at his edits of this template by checking its edit history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.172.201.152 ( talk) 16:10, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
BTW, not knowing anything about these games (ok I played original C&C waaaaaaaaaaay back in the day a couple times) I think this essentially comes down to sourcing. How well are the 'in universe' and 'spin off' categories defined? If both MrStalker and the IP cannot produce reliable sources for the categorization then perhaps it is venturing into the realm of original research and should be redacted from the template? If it was easy to say 'C&Cs 1-3 were produced by Westwood and then Tiberian Whatsits and on was produced by Microsoft' then you could clearly show a break. Syrthiss ( talk) 17:34, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
I see two things disputed here: The placement of TW3 and its expansion, as well as Sole Survivor.
We should go with what the articles say, without exception here. MrStalker appears to be in the right.
That said, I'll state here that you, MrStalker, using rollback to edit war, could see the userright removed. You might want to think twice in the future when the edits are not blatant vandalism but rather a content dispute. -- Izno ( talk) 18:04, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
Much of what the C&C articles on Wikipedia say is largely exaggerated and mostly incorrect. I agree with Syrthiss on that we should go by reliable sources, adding to that we shouldn't rely on sources from EALA's own commercial webpage (commandandconquer.com) that claims their spin-offs to be representing the main universe, while incorrectly excluding a couple of the original C&C storylines developed by Westwood as spin-offs.
I already provided one source from the original Westwood developers (the link of which I found on the anonymous user's talkpage), here is another. If someone can find more, it would help to have them added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.172.201.152 ( talk) 18:48, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
I believe there is consensus for this template to be reverted back to its old version dated July 12. In a nutshell, the current dispute is that the annon user want to keep this version because he/she thinks that Electronic Arts, the current owners of the franchise, has misinterpreted the C&C universe and wants to stick with the version put forward by ex-Westwood developers long after the game's release. I believe on the other hand, that this version of the C&C universe is now defunct, just as Westwood, and is no more official then any other fan-fiction. In the end, what truly matters is what was published in the finished products, not what might have been published if things were different.
The annon user is the only one supporting his/her stance, and all third opinions offered on this seems to support my stance, which also goes in line what's currently said on related Wikipedia articles.
Lastly, I do admit that labeling the annon user's edits as vandalism was incorrect and I apologize for that. Since the edits wasn't explained properly, I falsely identified them as deliberately introducing factual errors. -- MrStalker ( talk) 08:47, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Okey then... I will try to do this in a NPOV manner as much as possible, but you should consider this my side of it rather than actual facts.
December 2007, this was the current version with all the games sorted per series. Seemed logical at the time, but there was a problem which I discovered largely because of Tiberium. Tiberium was a new IP, separated from the already established series, but still a part of the Tiberium universe, so it would make sense to put them in the same category. Also, the series categorization was very unofficial, since officially only one series existed, that is the Command & Conquer series. So, I opted to change to a universe-based model...
I chose to base it on the universe model put forward by ex-Westwood staff. In retrospect this was not a proper approach since the franchise was no longer owned by Westwood, but my mistake was not long-lived, and the template was reverted to it's previous form.
A month went by, and this is when the real shit was about to hit the fan (now comes the reason why Option 1 was considered a really bad idea). Another editor (no names) opted to move Tiberium to the Tiberian series, because it was so clearly a part of the Tiberium universe. I said, no it's not part of the Tiberian series, it's a new series on it's own. I should have explained my rationale better (I guess I assumed the other editor understood it by looking at the previous discussion), but I didn't which resulted in some edit warring and several walls of text with myself and the other editor bitching around. There was also the other issue of the Tiberian Dawn subtitle, but that's not relevant now.
Eventually a resolution was reached (with much irony to me, since I suggested the universe approach a month earlier)...
This model was devised to solve the apparent problem with Tiberium's separation from the Tiberian series. However, it was quickly pointed out that Red Alert is part of the Tiberium universe as well...
Red Alert was added to the Tiberium universe category and never really contested, but there was a lot of edits by bypassing editors removing Red Alert from the Tiberium universe category, indicating that having the template in this way was, although factually correct, confusing.
Eventually, an annon user stepped forward and revised the template completely to this. At first the changes made didn't make much sense and was met with much resistance from myself and another editor largely because of introduction of some irrelevant links and the speculative nature of the changes. However, after a lengthy discussion and a number of revisions later (including changing "main series" to "main universe"), myself and another editor (the same editor I had major disagreement regarding series vs universe) agreed to this version, which is essentially the same (where it matters in relevance to this discussion) as the one used today.
There probably some points and arguments I've missed compiling this "short" summary, for the full story please review the talk page archive.
The latest dispute regarding the status of RA2, Sole Survivor, Tiberium Wars and Kane's Wrath is explained in short above.
-- MrStalker ( talk) 13:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
"Confusing with Red Alert in the Tiberium universe category, when there's also a Red Alert universe category."
It isn't really confusing at all IMO. Game titles and series titles are two distinct concepts that don't have to match up. Games themselves and series themselves are also distinct concepts that don't have to always overlap (for instance,
Vagrant Story is an Ivalice game but not a Final Fantasy game, unlike the other Ivalice games; and
Seiken Densetsu: Final Fantasy Gaiden is part of both the Final Fantasy and the Seiken Densetsu series). I think Version 3.5 is the best one as it is how the publisher views the franchise. They don't view it as a main series with spinoff games; they view it as 3 series in a franchise. If Red Alert is part of two series, then so be it. The template should reflect the basic, "first-level" idea of a 3-series franchise, and anything that is more complex, like the status of Red Alert, should be explained in the relevant articles. So I recommend Version 3.5, with "universe" replaced by "series" for clarity.
Megata Sanshiro (
talk)
09:10, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
I disagree. There's no policy or guideline discouraging section links, and they provide a convenient way for readers who wants to know about some particular game in the series. -- MrStalker ( talk) 09:49, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
I edited the template so the Tiberium Universe and the Red Alert Universe AND it's spinoffs are seperated. Red Alert is under both the Tiberium universe and the Red Alert universe. Currently, only Generals is in as a spin-off, although, I might add the IPhone game later. Cbrittain10 ( talk) 17:40, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I think its time to bring up whether to sort it by series, especially given the announcement of Generals 2 and since we already sort the characters by series. Officially EA, treats Generals, Tiberian and Red Alert as separate universes. This classification can clearly be seen by the way they organize the games section on [1] so should we follow this procedure with a template that looks like this: (Also interesting to note that EA calls the original C&C, Tiberian Dawn, on the site. Should we follow suit?)
KiasuKiasiMan 14:22, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps a compromise would be acceptable, like this:
This would have red alert in BOTH perspectives, making the Tib vs. Red Alert Universe argument void. Cbrittain10 ( talk| contribs) 00:14, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
I invited previouse participants to join the argument and have their say, one is on a wikibreak however, hopefully he will be here. Cbrittain10 ( talk| contribs) 15:00, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
There's been a few changes recently that seems to have some disagreement, so I figured I would talk about it a bit. The current revision has an Other section under the "Games" category that contains categories for the Tiberium, Red Alert, and Generals series as well as a fourth category titled "Other". I find this to be a bit misleading, as the Other category currently contains The First Decade and Canceled Games, which describe multiple games in several of the C&C universes, rather than games that are in a universe other than the three previously mentioned.
Two similar templates covering game series are Template:StarCraft series and Template:Age of Empires series. Both of them have a top level category apart from the games called "Miscellaneous" and "Other info" respectively, which contain articles related to the games that are not games themselves. I think that this would be a good model for us to follow with this template and an appropriate place for noteworthy collections as well as canceled games.
One template that does contain canceled games is Template:Ultima. For this one, there is a list of canceled games as well as two articles detailing in more detail a canceled game. These are put into a separate game category. However, I don't think this would be appropriate because we only have two articles (List of Canceled Command & Conquer Games and Command & Conquer 2008) rather than three, so creating a new category like this template seems excessive.
Given all that, I think that we ought to handle an Other section as a top level category, rather than a sub-category of games. In this revision, I had gone a step further and merged the Media in with Other, since I don't think that there is enough for Media to stand on its own, but I'm willing to talk about that. - Thunderforge ( talk) 03:57, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Command & Conquer series template. |
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I made several bold changes and I felt it necessary to explain my rationale for each of them. First, I eliminated the "Modifications" section because all the articles don't belong on Wikipedia. The "Modding C&C" article is junk and no similar game has an article like it (e.g. there isn't one for StarCraft, a featured article). Every one of the mod articles were deleted from the template because, in my eyes, they are non-notable. We can't include every single mod that has some sort of award. Again, I point to StarCraft which doesn't do that. The only one I left was Red Alert: A Path Beyond because it has been heavily promoted by EA, which I felt made it notable enough and which made it stand out from the rest of the mods. Finally, I replaced the link to the article Tiberium (video game) with a link to the article Cancelled Command & Conquer games. I created this article and made the substitution because I saw no reason why Tiberium was different from Renegade 2 or Continuum. I imagine most of the articles that are no longer linked will eventually be deleted because they simply don't fit on Wikipedia, but as for now, I'm not putting any of them up for deletion in case there are good arguments for keeping them (and presumably returning them to this template if they are to be kept). - Thunderforge ( talk) 22:58, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
There is a clearly a lot of debate over how best to group the games, and in particular whether RA1 belongs with TD or RA2. I have my own thoughts on this, but instead of starting a whole new debate that has already been waged, I have a better idea: Why don't you just ask the developers themselves on the official forums? You'll almost certainly get an answer from EA Apoc. -Derek 75.183.52.222 ( talk) 17:01, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
Recent annon edits have persistently been editing the template for it to correspond with his/her view of what is "true" C&C-games. This, however, is not the meaning of this template. "Main Universe" is solely to group together the games that exist in the same original storyline/universe as the original C&C. This has been explained to the annon user but with no result. Please revert the template to the revision representing long-standing consensus, i.e. to the revision dated July 12 by Shooterwalker. Also I suggest blocking the annon user for incivility and disruptive editing. --
MrStalker (
talk)
23:48, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
The edits that MrStalker reverted were legitimate, and do not constitute vandalism. Anyone who has followed Westwood's history (the original Command & Conquer developer) and that of the franchise itself, knows that Red Alert 2 and Sole Survivor are more part of the same universe than Tiberium Wars or Tiberian Twilight, as the former two are clearly more connected to the original Command & Conquer universe than the latter two could ever be, especially when the original developers had in mind to make the Tiberian Sun's sequel following the storyline that of Red Alert 2 (see Cancelled Command & Conquer games#Command_.26_Conquer:_Tiberian_Incursion and the statement from the original C&C developers), which Tiberium Wars and Tiberian Twilight had nothing to do with, effectively placing them in the category of spin-offs.
I also advise anyone who tends to take MrStalker seriously to consider the following statement he posted on the anonymous user's talkpage: "First of all, what ex-Westwood employees say about what some design team might have considered to be the future of C&C back in the days is completely irrelevant. They may whine all they want, but Electronic Arts owns C&C. What they say is fact when it comes to C&C, regardless if it's about the earlier games of the new ones, they own all of them. If EA says that Kane is homosexual, then Kane is homosexual (compare to Dumbledore in Harry Potter: Most fans probably don't perceive him as homosexual, but if J.K. says he is, then he is. End of story.)", as well as to look at his edits of this template by checking its edit history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.172.201.152 ( talk) 16:10, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
BTW, not knowing anything about these games (ok I played original C&C waaaaaaaaaaay back in the day a couple times) I think this essentially comes down to sourcing. How well are the 'in universe' and 'spin off' categories defined? If both MrStalker and the IP cannot produce reliable sources for the categorization then perhaps it is venturing into the realm of original research and should be redacted from the template? If it was easy to say 'C&Cs 1-3 were produced by Westwood and then Tiberian Whatsits and on was produced by Microsoft' then you could clearly show a break. Syrthiss ( talk) 17:34, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
I see two things disputed here: The placement of TW3 and its expansion, as well as Sole Survivor.
We should go with what the articles say, without exception here. MrStalker appears to be in the right.
That said, I'll state here that you, MrStalker, using rollback to edit war, could see the userright removed. You might want to think twice in the future when the edits are not blatant vandalism but rather a content dispute. -- Izno ( talk) 18:04, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
Much of what the C&C articles on Wikipedia say is largely exaggerated and mostly incorrect. I agree with Syrthiss on that we should go by reliable sources, adding to that we shouldn't rely on sources from EALA's own commercial webpage (commandandconquer.com) that claims their spin-offs to be representing the main universe, while incorrectly excluding a couple of the original C&C storylines developed by Westwood as spin-offs.
I already provided one source from the original Westwood developers (the link of which I found on the anonymous user's talkpage), here is another. If someone can find more, it would help to have them added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.172.201.152 ( talk) 18:48, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
I believe there is consensus for this template to be reverted back to its old version dated July 12. In a nutshell, the current dispute is that the annon user want to keep this version because he/she thinks that Electronic Arts, the current owners of the franchise, has misinterpreted the C&C universe and wants to stick with the version put forward by ex-Westwood developers long after the game's release. I believe on the other hand, that this version of the C&C universe is now defunct, just as Westwood, and is no more official then any other fan-fiction. In the end, what truly matters is what was published in the finished products, not what might have been published if things were different.
The annon user is the only one supporting his/her stance, and all third opinions offered on this seems to support my stance, which also goes in line what's currently said on related Wikipedia articles.
Lastly, I do admit that labeling the annon user's edits as vandalism was incorrect and I apologize for that. Since the edits wasn't explained properly, I falsely identified them as deliberately introducing factual errors. -- MrStalker ( talk) 08:47, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Okey then... I will try to do this in a NPOV manner as much as possible, but you should consider this my side of it rather than actual facts.
December 2007, this was the current version with all the games sorted per series. Seemed logical at the time, but there was a problem which I discovered largely because of Tiberium. Tiberium was a new IP, separated from the already established series, but still a part of the Tiberium universe, so it would make sense to put them in the same category. Also, the series categorization was very unofficial, since officially only one series existed, that is the Command & Conquer series. So, I opted to change to a universe-based model...
I chose to base it on the universe model put forward by ex-Westwood staff. In retrospect this was not a proper approach since the franchise was no longer owned by Westwood, but my mistake was not long-lived, and the template was reverted to it's previous form.
A month went by, and this is when the real shit was about to hit the fan (now comes the reason why Option 1 was considered a really bad idea). Another editor (no names) opted to move Tiberium to the Tiberian series, because it was so clearly a part of the Tiberium universe. I said, no it's not part of the Tiberian series, it's a new series on it's own. I should have explained my rationale better (I guess I assumed the other editor understood it by looking at the previous discussion), but I didn't which resulted in some edit warring and several walls of text with myself and the other editor bitching around. There was also the other issue of the Tiberian Dawn subtitle, but that's not relevant now.
Eventually a resolution was reached (with much irony to me, since I suggested the universe approach a month earlier)...
This model was devised to solve the apparent problem with Tiberium's separation from the Tiberian series. However, it was quickly pointed out that Red Alert is part of the Tiberium universe as well...
Red Alert was added to the Tiberium universe category and never really contested, but there was a lot of edits by bypassing editors removing Red Alert from the Tiberium universe category, indicating that having the template in this way was, although factually correct, confusing.
Eventually, an annon user stepped forward and revised the template completely to this. At first the changes made didn't make much sense and was met with much resistance from myself and another editor largely because of introduction of some irrelevant links and the speculative nature of the changes. However, after a lengthy discussion and a number of revisions later (including changing "main series" to "main universe"), myself and another editor (the same editor I had major disagreement regarding series vs universe) agreed to this version, which is essentially the same (where it matters in relevance to this discussion) as the one used today.
There probably some points and arguments I've missed compiling this "short" summary, for the full story please review the talk page archive.
The latest dispute regarding the status of RA2, Sole Survivor, Tiberium Wars and Kane's Wrath is explained in short above.
-- MrStalker ( talk) 13:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
"Confusing with Red Alert in the Tiberium universe category, when there's also a Red Alert universe category."
It isn't really confusing at all IMO. Game titles and series titles are two distinct concepts that don't have to match up. Games themselves and series themselves are also distinct concepts that don't have to always overlap (for instance,
Vagrant Story is an Ivalice game but not a Final Fantasy game, unlike the other Ivalice games; and
Seiken Densetsu: Final Fantasy Gaiden is part of both the Final Fantasy and the Seiken Densetsu series). I think Version 3.5 is the best one as it is how the publisher views the franchise. They don't view it as a main series with spinoff games; they view it as 3 series in a franchise. If Red Alert is part of two series, then so be it. The template should reflect the basic, "first-level" idea of a 3-series franchise, and anything that is more complex, like the status of Red Alert, should be explained in the relevant articles. So I recommend Version 3.5, with "universe" replaced by "series" for clarity.
Megata Sanshiro (
talk)
09:10, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
I disagree. There's no policy or guideline discouraging section links, and they provide a convenient way for readers who wants to know about some particular game in the series. -- MrStalker ( talk) 09:49, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
I edited the template so the Tiberium Universe and the Red Alert Universe AND it's spinoffs are seperated. Red Alert is under both the Tiberium universe and the Red Alert universe. Currently, only Generals is in as a spin-off, although, I might add the IPhone game later. Cbrittain10 ( talk) 17:40, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I think its time to bring up whether to sort it by series, especially given the announcement of Generals 2 and since we already sort the characters by series. Officially EA, treats Generals, Tiberian and Red Alert as separate universes. This classification can clearly be seen by the way they organize the games section on [1] so should we follow this procedure with a template that looks like this: (Also interesting to note that EA calls the original C&C, Tiberian Dawn, on the site. Should we follow suit?)
KiasuKiasiMan 14:22, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps a compromise would be acceptable, like this:
This would have red alert in BOTH perspectives, making the Tib vs. Red Alert Universe argument void. Cbrittain10 ( talk| contribs) 00:14, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
I invited previouse participants to join the argument and have their say, one is on a wikibreak however, hopefully he will be here. Cbrittain10 ( talk| contribs) 15:00, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
There's been a few changes recently that seems to have some disagreement, so I figured I would talk about it a bit. The current revision has an Other section under the "Games" category that contains categories for the Tiberium, Red Alert, and Generals series as well as a fourth category titled "Other". I find this to be a bit misleading, as the Other category currently contains The First Decade and Canceled Games, which describe multiple games in several of the C&C universes, rather than games that are in a universe other than the three previously mentioned.
Two similar templates covering game series are Template:StarCraft series and Template:Age of Empires series. Both of them have a top level category apart from the games called "Miscellaneous" and "Other info" respectively, which contain articles related to the games that are not games themselves. I think that this would be a good model for us to follow with this template and an appropriate place for noteworthy collections as well as canceled games.
One template that does contain canceled games is Template:Ultima. For this one, there is a list of canceled games as well as two articles detailing in more detail a canceled game. These are put into a separate game category. However, I don't think this would be appropriate because we only have two articles (List of Canceled Command & Conquer Games and Command & Conquer 2008) rather than three, so creating a new category like this template seems excessive.
Given all that, I think that we ought to handle an Other section as a top level category, rather than a sub-category of games. In this revision, I had gone a step further and merged the Media in with Other, since I don't think that there is enough for Media to stand on its own, but I'm willing to talk about that. - Thunderforge ( talk) 03:57, 2 January 2014 (UTC)